Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.

[haoreos2]

It just led me to make this, but, eh.

This takes precedence in my headcanon over the actual SoPM info. Wheee.

[Bias Bus]

Uh, with the Symposium out and even before, during Undefined Fantastic Object, Makai is Former Hell. You now know this for a fact since it was specific that Byakuren and crew are trapped in the same Underground that the underground youkai live in, ie Yamame, Kisume, Yuugi, etc. This means Hokkai is in the underground somewhere.

I'm pretty sure Makai and the Former Hell have nothing to do with each other and are completely separate locations. Makai is an alternate dimension created by Shinki, Hokkai being on it's outskirts rather than a random spot in the underground.

Still haven't read to far into this, but I do like Ichirin/Unzan's backstory.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Sooo does Yuugi's ability to manipulate unexplained phenomena mean she's a walking weirdness magnet? Or that she tends to attract improbable and overly convenient coincidences?

For that matter, does this mean that in the unlikely event that something managed to grievously injure her she could appear later, bereft of any evidence of having sought healing yet appearing quite obviously repaired and probably either miffed or amused at what managed to best her in the field of punching the Hell out of things trying to punch the Hell out of you?

[Reddyne]

Seiga and Murasa have, for all intents and purposes, both separated themselves from their respective factions, which is kinda interesting. Seiga is a legit threat because of how reckless she can be, which was sorta interesting, and she'll be the creator of Subject Zero if Gensokyo has some sorta zombie apocalypse. Still, she's social for a hermit, which is bizarre but very interesting. Murasa sinking Komachi's boat is not interesting, it's hilarious. Poor Komachi can't catch a break.

Punk Mystia and Kyouko really was love at first sight. Knowing that Kyouko is really just an adorable, shy little thing really solidified her personality. Knowing that Kogasa is similar if a bit harried is also satisfying.

I always had a bit of a soft spot for Shou. Gentle and dignified really suits her. She gets mad around her friends, but that seems to be something to be taken with a grain of salt. Also, Shou drunk was NOT something to be expected, but could be hilarious. I imagine her relationship to Naz to be very similar to Eirin/Kaguya's relationship to Tewi.

Koishi is fascinating for what she is. Originally, she was only somewhat eccentric who could render herself effectively invisible to people. Now, she's this bizarre psychological anomaly who exists outside of personality and emotion. It's this sterile, incomprehensible existence that makes her interesting. It also gives Hartmann's Youkai Girl a lot more meaning, too, as the very idea of what her existence is like is surreal and disturbing.

Futo and Murasa are evil?! Noooo! Say it ain't so! They're two of my favorites! They've both got hysterical fanon interpretations. DJ Futo, extreme sports star and Captain Murasa Minamitsu are too cool for that.

Kanako seems more open, sensible, and level-headed in general than the belligerent, pushy type that I thought she was. She's earned big points.

Byakuren being the maternal type that advocates for peaceful and disadvantaged youkai. She doesn't want political power or eternal life and has an aversion to killing (and booze. Her not-quite-complete devotion to Buddhism as a monk makes her a bit less than exciting or social). Her temple welcomes everyone (which makes things awkward between humans and youkai) and while Shou brings newcomers in, it's her words, teachings and recitals that keep people coming back. Pretty much what I had her pinned as. If there's something wrong with her, it's that she's a bit too defensive of her own while being a bit too quick on the gun to potential threats. The shadiest part of Byakuren continues to be how shady some people argue that she is. Some catch Fox News Syndrome when anything that discredits or refutes their claims is brought up, and consider all the dialogue present in UFO to be nothing more than a fanfic written by a chimp on LSD. Zun explicitly stating that Byakuren is a good person is apparently not enough to convince people that Byakuren is a good person.

Meanwhile, a limbless infant can throw Miko farther than I can trust her. I swear, Zun genetically engineered her to grind all of my gears. She's a bit personable and has a decent sense of humor which help blunt things, but that's about it.

Giving Yoshika a bit more personality did a world of good. Writing music? A picture can really be worth a thousand words at times, even if it's just a mental one. Giving Kisume ANY personality also went a long way, even if it's a sinister one.

I still haven't gone through everything yet, including a handful of characters not mentioned. Watching warmly for updates.

[Gpop]

I love Byakuren, Miko, and Kanako's take on Koishi themselves, in fact, seems like Byakuren wants to take her in if she could ever find her, since Koishi has reached a state of "emptiness", which is amazing for her beliefs. She wants to help her reach the final stage of enlightenment.

Suddenly, Koishi doesn't seem so depressing whatsoever!

Also, she isn't as "mindless" as you think,

Byakuren:

Spoiler:

"But for Ms. Koishi, she overcame it and is expressing herself...Normally, if you're not thinking anything you wouldn't be able to do anything either. But she's strolling about everywhere, can have conversations, and is behaving completely true to herself. This proves that she didn't close her mind."

Miko:

Spoiler:

"I see, so rather than being a satori who cannot read minds because she closed her mind, she abandoned her mind and approached 'Emptiness'."

If she ever does oh that'd certainly be something :V

[Janitor Morgan]

Sounds like bias to me. What things did she "grossly exaggerate"?
Her works are generally fairly consistent with canon.

In addition, I received a great number of requests from youkai (*2), so what started out as a guide to help humans defend themselves from youkai was, before I knew it, a manual for youkai to help others learn about them.
In fact, a number of the youkai threat levels have been inflated somewhat in this volume.
[...]
2: Such as, "Make me sound stronger", or "What do you think of this power?"

Tell me how this is my own bias, as you put it; she admits herself that it's embellished.

For specific examples:
--Eirin categorized as a powerful human.
--On the Netherworld page, it mentions that Heaven is full enough that attaining nirvana is impossible. Yukari comments on how ridiculous that idea is in SWR; I'm also pretty sure they'd have kicked Suika out when she set up camp there, if it was so full.
--I'm pretty sure the Fujiwara clan was not a clan of ninja, as they're described in Mokou's entry. Doing a search for such only turns up some Naruto stuff and video games.

Between those errors and the admitted embellishing that Akyuu owns up to, I'm surprised that the entries in PMiSS (and SoPM by extension) aren't taken with a grain of salt.

Erebus also already addressed the Makai/Former Hell point, but I'll confirm that given Makai is in a different dimension, it and Former Hell cannot be the same. Hokkai is in Makai, not the underground.

[Tiamat]

In Akyu's defense, some of those falsehoods aren't her fault (that is to say, done on purpose), although it still shows that many times, Akyu isn't the definite end-all source because of various limitations she has as a non-omnipotent being.

Tell me how this is my own bias, as you put it; she admits herself that it's embellished.

For specific examples:
--Eirin categorized as a powerful human.

The Eientei group lies to everyone that they're human. The only people that know they're from the moon are the protagonists from Imperishable Night (and Patchouli). This is pointed out here and there in various parts of the story. Of course, it's sometimes hard to notice since most of the time it comes up, the characters who mention it are... well, the protagonists from Imperishable Night.  But the few times the Eientei residents are talked about by characters who weren't the protagonists, there are quite a few indicators that they have no idea the Eientei residents are from the Moon.

Heck, Yukari doesn't even know that Eirin is THE Brain of the Moon (though she suspects it. Bear in mind that Eirin's not Eirin's true name).

(It IS public knowledge that Reisen is from the moon, though)

--On the Netherworld page, it mentions that Heaven is full enough that attaining nirvana is impossible. Yukari comments on how ridiculous that idea is in SWR; I'm also pretty sure they'd have kicked Suika out when she set up camp there, if it was so full.

This is another lie not from Akyu, but from the Ministry of What's Right and Wrong (well, I say it's them because they're the only source in Akyu's colophon that she could have got it from).  Yukari explicitly states that the populace was told that heaven was overcrowded, but she has now discovered that it's a lie.  As an aside, while that does explain why there was room for Suika (and Suika did comment something like "Wow, there's lots of room up here!  Gimme some!"), they also didn't kick her out in part due to Tenshi's political power. Iku comments in Suika's ending that Tenshi did it without permission and the other denizons of Heaven are basically "WTF are we supposed to do about this now?"

--I'm pretty sure the Fujiwara clan was not a clan of ninja, as they're described in Mokou's entry. Doing a search for such only turns up some Naruto stuff and video games.

Akyu specifically states that Mokou is just thought that she might be a descendant of that clan, not that it's confirmed. But the fact that she started Mokou's article off with that description, as opposed to Sakuya's where the speculation came later and was disclaimed as speculation from the get-go, was a bit of bad form, admittingly.  It's the equivalent of me starting an article about Meiling with "Dragons are powerful godlike beings. Meiling may be one of them." as opposed to waiting until later in Meiling's article and saying "She seems to have a lot of references to dragons, although it is unconfirmed if that actually means anything."

Between those errors and the admitted embellishing that Akyuu owns up to, I'm surprised that the entries in PMiSS (and SoPM by extension) aren't taken with a grain of salt.

I just assume that anything in regards to youkai killing humans is embellished (after all, they aren't allowed to do that under the contract), anything else stated as a matter of fact (usually background info) was as true as you could expect from a historical document or one of Akyu's stated sources (IE, generally reliable, but could be proven wrong, especially if a conspiracy is going on, which turned out to be the case with the celestials), anything that contains speculative language was just that, and almost (almost) anything that begins with "It is said" came from Yukari (who's so untrustworthy that Akyu would label everything from her as "it is said" instead of just say it as a fact like she apparently did with the Ministry of Right and Wrong about heaven. As an aside, IIRC, the majority of statements that begin with "it is said" have to do with the outside world or personal information about Yuyuko).

[Tiamat]

Seiga and Murasa have, for all intents and purposes, both separated themselves from their respective factions, which is kinda interesting.

ZUN actually stated in an interview prior to SoPM (or maybe it's from Reimu's alternate Ten Desires ending) that Seiga was actually not particularly bound to or loyal to Miko but instead just goes after pretty much anyone she finds interesting.  Actually, I'm pretty sure it was Reimu's alternate TD ending but I could be wrong. If it's an interview, it's probably that same one that says that Kyouko is a priestess-in-training.

Regarding Murasa though, I don't recall anything about her being separated from Byakuren's faction. Just that she goes around drowning people (which IMHO is probably embellished a bit, given that youkai aren't supposed to kill native Gensokyans. Or is it just eat them?)

The actual Symposium (Part 3) seems to imply she's still part of the group, though they also mention Kogasa there as well and it's clear she is not. Either way, though, it seems like almost ALL of Byakuren's youkai basically try to behave themselves around her but then go off and do youkai-things behind her back (not because they hate her, but because they're... well, youkai)

[teefa85]

I'm finding it an interesting read so far and can't wait for more of the profiles to be translated.  I really had little headcanon on a lot of the characters from Mountain of Faith and beyond, mainly due to having less sources (though I did joke about Sanae being a Pokemon player before that one chapter of Wild and Horned Hermit where she thinks of a censor barred Pikachu as one of her thoughts as what the "electric animal" Marisa spoke of was).  Some of what I did have was confirmed, some went off in a totally different direction (usually ones I was going with the flow on) and some just opened up the door for a ton of new interpretation.

Really liked the idea of a punk band and if I wasn't so bogged down I might take the information and try to write a fic on this.

[Starxsword]

I'm pretty sure Makai and the Former Hell have nothing to do with each other and are completely separate locations. Makai is an alternate dimension created by Shinki, Hokkai being on it's outskirts rather than a random spot in the underground.

You are right, I misread something, so I thought Makai was in the Underground.

For specific examples:
--Eirin categorized as a powerful human.

Eirin is a human. Lunarian are humans, there is nothing wrong with that categorization. I have no idea why the wiki has texts that are clearly misleading.
Fact, Lunarians are humans.

--On the Netherworld page, it mentions that Heaven is full enough that attaining nirvana is impossible. Yukari comments on how ridiculous that idea is in SWR; I'm also pretty sure they'd have kicked Suika out when she set up camp there, if it was so full.

But heaven is technically full. If the residents do not allow occupation, it is full.
Think of a Football stadium. If the owners decided that the max capacity is 10 people, it would be considered full after 10 people.
Sure, you can put two hundred to three hundred thousand people, if you squeeze, but full by definition is defined by whoever is owning the land. In Heaven's case, Celestial control it.

I'm also pretty sure they'd have kicked Suika out when she set up camp there, if it was so full.

Interesting assumption here. How do you know that Suika did not leave or was not kicked out after SWR? I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to temporarily stay.

--I'm pretty sure the Fujiwara clan was not a clan of ninja, as they're described in Mokou's entry. Doing a search for such only turns up some Naruto stuff and video games.

This is what Akyuu said:

About that time, I encountered a person who is probably a descendant of such a group.

Do note Akyuu's footnote about legendary exterminators:

1: They're often thought of as a group of ninja.

Now, is Mokou the legendary exterminator? We cannot prove this or disprove this. But what we do know is that Mokou attack everyone she sees for a time. That can possibly be how she managed to gain that reputation, but we will never really know.

Between those errors and the admitted embellishing that Akyuu owns up to, I'm surprised that the entries in PMiSS (and SoPM by extension) aren't taken with a grain of salt.

Post more errors, because I only see one and that is iffy at best.

Erebus also already addressed the Makai/Former Hell point, but I'll confirm that given Makai is in a different dimension, it and Former Hell cannot be the same. Hokkai is in Makai, not the underground.

Really? How do you know that Makai is from a different dimension?

[iK]

Rei: I, I see(sweat)
Then this makes things simple.
Go tell the beings of Makai.

Shin: What?

Rei: To not come to the human world so much!



The rest of the dialogue for the other stories has similar implications, that Makai exists as a separate entity from the Outside Wold as well as Gensoukyou. Whether you want to call that entity a dimension, a plane, a world, or even another universe, they all have the same implications.

[Tiamat]

Eirin is a human. Lunarian are humans, there is nothing wrong with that categorization. I have no idea why the wiki has texts that are clearly misleading.
Fact, Lunarians are humans.

I dunno about misleading texts on other parts of the wiki, but the Lunarian page specifically states that while Lunarians resemble humans, there is nothing in any official work that ever states they were humans. I should know, given that I've rummaged through every single official work I could think of trying to find some place where it's stated that they are while researching for that article.

The most that's stated about them was that they originally came from earth and left it long ago, but it's never stated there that they were human.  I imagine they probably were, but without an official source actually stating as such, I can't and won't change the wiki to state they are.

At any rate, present day Eirin's apparently been confirmed by ZUN off-handedly to be a god in SoPM (something which was semi-implied but never explicitly stated until now). However, it's possible for one to be a god and a human at the same time (such as Sanae), especially for long lived Lunarians.

[Janitor Morgan]

@ Tiamat: Right, I'm aware they're not all her fault (at least, now that you explained the heaven bit, I know that one wasn't her own doing), but they're still inaccuracies. All I'm trying to point out is that not everything printed in PMiSS and SoPM should be taken at face value, like things in the game manuals (for instance) might be. You do bring up some good arguments, though, and it looks like I'll need to echo them here:

You are right, I misread something, so I thought Makai was in the Underground.
[...]
Really? How do you know that Makai is from a different dimension?

Kind of hypocritical how you're only jumping on me when Erebus said the same thing, no? Also:

Stage 1: "The Cave Where The Door To Makai Is Said To Be" - Boss: 'The Door's Watchman', Sara
Stage 2: "The Border Between The Human World And Makai" - Boss: 'The Resident of Makai', Louise

So yeah. It's a dimension.

Eirin is a human. Lunarian are humans, there is nothing wrong with that categorization. I have no idea why the wiki has texts that are clearly misleading.
Fact, Lunarians are humans.

I believe Tiamat just covered this before I got started on this post.

But heaven is technically full. If the residents do not allow occupation, it is full.
Think of a Football stadium. If the owners decided that the max capacity is 10 people, it would be considered full after 10 people.
Sure, you can put two hundred to three hundred thousand people, if you squeeze, but full by definition is defined by whoever is owning the land. In Heaven's case, Celestial control it.

And Yukari called them out on that arbitrary max capacity; there is plenty of room, and the Celestials are just being greedy. Taking Tiamat's clarification into account, Akyuu is, admittedly unintentionally, spreading the lie that's being propagated about this. I'm not sure how your football stadium example was trying to disprove this.

Interesting assumption here. How do you know that Suika did not leave or was not kicked out after SWR? I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to temporarily stay.

Let's throw your own example back at you, though: If the max capacity is reached and someone else wants to come in, even if only temporarily, then they are turned away because they'd push it over that capacity. Given how gung-ho the celestials seem to be about their land, and the way you're phrasing your example as a non-negotiable limit, then she had to have been kicked out or forced to leave.

Tiamat does bring up a good point about Tenshi's political clout being a reason that Suika may not have been forced out, though. Hmm, I think I'm seeing a pattern here...

This is what Akyuu said:
Do note Akyuu's footnote about legendary exterminators:
Now, is Mokou the legendary exterminator? We cannot prove this or disprove this. But what we do know is that Mokou attack everyone she sees for a time. That can possibly be how she managed to gain that reputation, but we will never really know.

Finally, a fair point; it's speculation and could go either way (though I am strongly leaning toward it not being true). However, take into account what Tiamat mentioned about starting the article with that being bad form (yep, definitely a pattern going here).

Post more errors, because I only see one and that is iffy at best.

To (again) echo Tiamat, try everywhere where it mentions *named* youkai killing humans (discounting Yuyuko, possibly Komachi as well). The spell card rules prevent it from happening, with Reimu enforcing this if need be. So, for instance, Wriggle is forbidden from throwing harvest mites onto someone and letting them bite.

[haoreos2]

And Yukari called them out on that arbitrary max capacity; there is plenty of room, and the Celestials are just being greedy. Taking Tiamat's clarification into account, Akyuu is, admittedly unintentionally, spreading the lie that's being propagated about this. I'm not sure how your football stadium example was trying to disprove this.

It's because you're arguing different things. You're saying it still has physical room for more, which is true.
What starx is saying is that although there's plenty more space, it's reached the capacity set by the "owners".

Say you have a hotel, or a carpark. If every room/spot has an occupant, you say the hotel is "full", even though each room/floor could probably fit several other people/cars in it.

The truth of Akyuu's claim thus comes down to whether or not the Celestials have the ability to prevent new occupants, and if she's talking literal or effective capacity. If they can, then it would be effectively, but not literally, full.

If the Celestials can't, it's false.
If they can, and she's talking effective capacity, it's true.   <-- starx's point
If they can, and she's talking physical capacity, it's false. <-- your point

[Starxsword]

The most that's stated about them was that they originally came from earth and left it long ago, but it's never stated there that they were human.  I imagine they probably were, but without an official source actually stating as such, I can't and won't change the wiki to state they are.

They are not Youkai, they originally came from earth. So, they are human. Lunarian is akin to saying moon people, or let's use race as an example. American, French, Japanese, etc. They may be different, but they are humans. Lunarian is written as 月の民 "Citizen of the Moon" and humans as 地上の民 "Citizen of the Earth".

Cage in Lunatic Runagate:

I decided I would atone for my sin by helping find a place on Earth where she could live an easy life as a human.

Lunarians are of such a higher class than the people of Earth it's not an exaggeration to say they're in a different dimension entirely.

Kind of hypocritical how you're only jumping on me when Erebus said the same thing, no? Also:

Nothing hypocritical about it. Why do I need to reply to two statements that say the same thing?

So yeah. It's a dimension.

Why are you using PC98 as proof? Please use post PC98 games.

And Yukari called them out on that arbitrary max capacity; there is plenty of room, and the Celestials are just being greedy. Taking Tiamat's clarification into account, Akyuu is, admittedly unintentionally, spreading the lie that's being propagated about this. I'm not sure how your football stadium example was trying to disprove this.

That does not matter. An arbitrary max is still a max.  If you cannot see the football stadium as an example, let's use a club. The owners of a club can set any number of people as an arbitrary max. Once that max is reached, it is "full".
Let's use an example. You go to a club, it has capacity of 100 people. After 100 people go there, it reaches the max. You can technically have much more people, but you can't, because the owners of that club set that as the max.
This is the same case with Heaven. The celestials arbitrarily set a max, and thus no one can go to heaven. We know this as a fact, since Yukari says that people cannot achieve Nirvana. Whether they are "right" or "wrong" in their judgement is their call. The fact remains the same, no one may enter Heaven.

To (again) echo Tiamat, try everywhere where it mentions *named* youkai killing humans (discounting Yuyuko, possibly Komachi as well). The spell card rules prevent it from happening, with Reimu enforcing this if need be. So, for instance, Wriggle is forbidden from throwing harvest mites onto someone and letting them bite.

Please give a concrete example, and do not say "everywhere". Where did it say *named* youkai killing humans?
How do you know that Wriggle is forbidden from this? Where does it concretely give us prove that this is the case?

What we know of spell card rules is that anyone who participates in it may not kill humans.
Akyuu makes the case that it is generally fairly safe in Gensokyo. But we also know that this is not entirely true.
As you know from Zun's statement about Kisume, some youkai are not to be messed with.


What haoreos2 said is much better than what I am trying to explain about capacity and what it means to be full.

[Aba Matindesu!]

Why are you using PC98 as proof? Please use post PC98 games.

ufo

[trancehime]

Why are you using PC98 as proof? Please use post PC98 games.

>Discussion about Makai
>Banned from using PC98 games as proof

Don't be absurd, stop kidding yourself, and please re-read that request before even CONSIDERING making another argument against that, because it just makes you look like a stubborn person who is insistent on using completely irrelevant material. The post-PC98 games do not cover anything extensive about Makai and the other locales, because those locations were barely touched upon in the post PC98 games.

I cannot BELIEVE someone is actually saying "use post-PC98 games as evidence!" to a point that... originates from the PC98 games, with a straight face. Stick to your own guns, ffs.

ufo

i lol'd

errata:

Nothing hypocritical about it. Why do I need to reply to two statements that say the same thing?

because it makes you look like a douche for singling out someone with a response that doesn't even make sense, just 'sayin

[Janitor Morgan]

Why are you using PC98 as proof? Please use post PC98 games.

...I don't think there's a point in arguing anything with you if you're going to discard entire games just because they came before EoSD.

It's because you're arguing different things. You're saying it still has physical room for more, which is true.
What starx is saying is that although there's plenty more space, it's reached the capacity set by the "owners".

Say you have a hotel, or a carpark. If every room/spot has an occupant, you say the hotel is "full", even though each room/floor could probably fit several other people/cars in it.

The truth of Akyuu's claim thus comes down to whether or not the Celestials have the ability to prevent new occupants, and if she's talking literal or effective capacity. If they can, then it would be effectively, but not literally, full.

If the Celestials can't, it's false.
If they can, and she's talking effective capacity, it's true.   <-- starx's point
If they can, and she's talking physical capacity, it's false. <-- your point

Ah, this makes it more clear. In that case, I'd like to point to the fact that Tenshi was able to give Suika any land in the first place. Just played Suika's scenario of SWR to confirm, and indeed:

[...] Suika laid down and fell asleep. Tenshi had to lease out part of Heaven to Suika, who beat her. She hadn't set a lease term limit yet, but she wasn't worried about that. In any case, she thought Suika would get bored and leave before too long.

So it sounds like the celestials didn't even bother trying to kick her out, which might indicate that they can't. Though...now that I think about it, the Yama also have the power to send souls to Heaven, right? It's possible that the celestials can block souls from taking up residence, but not the living...hmm.

[Tiamat]

Hmm... that line about Kaguya being able to live as a human would seem to heavily imply it.  I don't think it'd count for 100% but it's more than enough for one to say "Almost positively means they're human" or whatever.  Guess I'll go with that, then.

Well, the Ministry of Right and Wrong is run by the Yama, IIRC (I think it's stated in either Shiki's profile in PMiSS or the Yama section), and again, they're the only ones from the colophon that could have possibly told Akyu in the first place that Heaven was full (PMiSS being written before the events of Scarlet Weather Rhapsody and Yukari finding out it was a lie, after all)

It's Iku's ending where Iku tells Suika that the other celestials either couldn't protest because of Tenshi's political clout, or that Tenshi just did it without permission (or both)

But yea, far as Yukari can tell (and implied by Suika's mannerisms that she believes it to be the case too, IIRC), Heaven physically has lots of room, but the Celestials (and/or the ministry) are going around saying Heaven is full because the celestials want that space to themselves.

At any rate, again, IMHO Akyu's about as reliable as you can expect a scholar that actually lives there to be, with the exception of the admitted embellishments. Of course, this is far from 100% reliable, as ZUN has stated in that e-mail correspondence that it's really only the youkai that know the true history of Gensokyo (and even then, youkai are... well, youkai. As stated by Akyu, they have a tendency to distort things.

[HyperGumba]

...I don't think there's a point in arguing anything with you if you're going to discard entire games just because they came before EoSD.

I guess that's mainly because ZUN himself stated more than once that the PC-98 games should be ignored, despite all what we see fandom create. I wouldn't know though, don't ask me.

Aside from that, an addendum to my previous post: Minoriko turned out the way I had envisioned here, and this about as accurately as I did with Parsee and Miko before! I am so glad I won't have to retcon anything at all what I had established during roleplay elsewhere, I would have been very cross.

Alone the fact that it is Minoriko who is jealous of Shizuha and not vice-versa was a suprise to me. I would have always though Shizuha would be the one envying Minoriko for being quite popular, getting invites for festivals and stuff...

[shadowbringer]

I've started reading this week, up until Tojiko's article.

First I'll discuss the controversial issues though:

- The lunar capital and the dragon's palace are different places (Eirin lied to Urashimanoko -- Urashima Taro -- about the Lunar Capital being the Dragon's Palace)
- The *travel* between the moon and earth doesn't seem much difficult to do (lunar emissaries did that, Reisen 2 did that), but it seems that most of the damage Reisen 2 took was from trying to escape from the Lunar Capital. The "it's difficult" thing may be interpreted as the lunarians not wanting the moon to be contaminated with Earth's impurity. About Eirin using the fake moon, (*if* what she said is true, at least), it was to block the way between the moon and the Earth, since there seemed to be the threat of another lunar war (during IN, sort of expanded in SSiB and CiLR), and Eirin could possibly want to avoid having the lunar emissaries coming for her.
- Makai and the former

Spoiler:

heaven or

hell are different places; Murasa, Shou, Nazrin, Ichirin and Nue were ejected from the former hell by the

Spoiler:

POWEEEEEEEEER

geyser

Spoiler:

!!!

, together with the Holy Palanquin ship (r.i.p.), then used the ship to travel to Makai (Hokkai region), the player is aboard the ship during stage 4 as it's travelling to Makai. Some bad endings in UFO iirc have Marisa

Spoiler:

being unable to go back from Makai

, while she was very well able to leave the former hell. (also lol ZUN "having no idea about how Makai was supposed to look like" during UFO's production phase)
- I thought that Suika took a piece of heavens for herself.. by force? Or Tenshi agreed to give her some of her territory.. or had to. Suika > Tenshi.

Spoiler:

like IaMP>SWR, how deliciously meta, etc lol xD

- Tenshi sounded deceptive when she secretly

Spoiler:

put a celestial keystone in the rebuilt Hakurei shrine (Yukari had to destroy the shrine again and remove the keystone)

, so if the word that "heaven was full" came from her (because I don't remember most stuff accurately when I need) came from her.. maybe she wanted even more territories, or she would plot (alone, or together with fellow celestials) to take the earth's surface (partially or completely) for herself/themselves. Maybe. (what if she and the Namazu from Soku are actually a foreshadowing?)
- the bits about lunarians living as humans are ambiguous, as for example Yukari doesn't consider Eirin (if Yukari isn't lying, I mean) to fit within the youkai society, so, "live like a human" (like Kaguya was said to be trying to live, and socialize more) could mean to live with the manners of humans. But at the same time, it's never stated that they're *not* humans, either. There may be (outside Touhou) indications that Tsukuyomi took with him fellow humans, the purest (or less impure) that he could find (if my memory doesn't betray me yet one more time) to the moon. But.. if you notice for example how Chang'e was made a villain in Touhou, I guess the best measure is to wait for more information.
- I don't know how Fujiwara and ninja are associated, but the Fujiwara clan was (it seems) very influential during the Heian period, politically speaking.
- Miko's mention about how Futo

Spoiler:

maki (danbooru link, nsfw ads)

burnt a temple is (very *probably*) her explanation about why her own temple got destroyed, in real life.


Next, the stuff from the book. I don't have much to say, except that
- I tried to read Kisume's article, but it's still untranslated. (like other articles as well)
- I liked the lots of new information that seem to add to the existing lore, for example, how tanuki have turned into complete humans at the outside.
- Mima could summon lightningz!1!11
- personally I think that this is a great time for people to start trying to write fanfics or even develop fan games (that try to use canon information), at least until another major source of canon information comes (like, for example... a Super BAiJR Hatate Edition)

[Starxsword]

Don't be absurd, stop kidding yourself, and please re-read that request before even CONSIDERING making another argument against that, because it just makes you look like a stubborn person who is insistent on using completely irrelevant material. The post-PC98 games do not cover anything extensive about Makai and the other locales, because those locations were barely touched upon in the post PC98 games.

How much of "Makai" gets covered is not too relevant. Pre PC-98, Makai wasn't all that covered. We know very little about it. Post PC-98, you get the same deal, not much is known in it. The only difference is that pre PC-98 we know that Shinki created Makai. Whether this is true in post PC-98 is unknown.

This reply is to any reply on why I ignore PC-98 as evidence to canon. My reasoning is fairly simple. Zun said that you should disregard PC-98, and that is exactly what I am doing.

There is nothing illogical about my approach on what is and what is not canon. I take up facts that I see as true, and if proven other wise, it will become untrue. Just as my replied to the earlier poster, I clearly said I was wrong, because I misread an article.

Facts come from many sources, official works, Embodiment of the Scarlet Devil, Perfect Momento in Strict Sense, Oriental Sacred Place, etc. It also comes from statements by the creator, like Zun's emails, interviews, and the like. Since there are statements by Zun on such things, I take that as fact that PC-98 should be disregarded as canon, which is what I am doing. I do not use PC-98 when arguing about canon.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN/ZUN%27s_E-mails
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/ZUN/ZUN%27s_reply_to_messages_on_the_former_Gensou_Bulletin_Board_3


@Tenshi and Suika: We know Suika beat Tenshi, so Tenshi let Suika have a piece of Heaven. But this does not change that the celestials or heaven or whoever is calling the shots is declaring that heaven is full. My argument is that Akyuu is entirely accurate on this statement, because that is what full means.

@Tenshi and Heaven: I am pretty sure that the keystone was never removed. Yukari did remove the extra housing Tenshi built for herself. As for who said that the Heavens was full, I am under the assumption that the celestials themselves said this, not Tenshi, but whoever is in charge of letting spirits in Heaven.

@Lunarians and Humans: Now, I argue that Lunarians are humans and have always been. The term Lunarian is somewhat misleading, since there was never any implication that Lunarians are of a different species than humans. Think of it like Vampires and Youkai. Youkai also includes vampires, and I am saying that humans also include Lunarian.

The way I see it, think of Lunarians as a separate race, like being American, Chinese, French, Japanese, etc.

Here is an excerpt from chapter 4 of Cage in Lunatic Runagate, near the bottom, this is more definitive than the ones I posted earlier:

"...That's right. We're already eternal Earthlings now."

While there are no real direct indication that Lunarians are humans, there was never any implication that says otherwise. The way these are worded seems to indicate that Lunarians were always humans and have always been humans. The only difference is that they now live in the moon and not the earth.

I am unsure if the speaker is Kaguya or Eirin, but one of them speaking. I think it is Eirin speaking.


Oh yeah, I forgot to mention some things that I had a wrong impression about. I always thought that Suika was stronger than Yuugi physically. This is mainly because Suika uses more physical cards than magical cards. But Post Symposium of Mysticism suggests that Suika is magically stronger than Yuugi and Yuugi is physically stronger than Suika.
Also oni, I thought the underground has lots of oni, but that doesn't seem like it is true...

[AnonymousPondScum]

It's sort of a shame that the PC-98 games aren't really canon. They got METAL AS FUCK at times. I mean, how can a series where you face an angel of death and travel across A LAKE OF BLOOD not be awesome?

Oh well.  :V

I think Lunarians are more youkai than, say, Patchy or Alice, but at the same time more human than vampires/oni/obake/etc.

I always thought Suika was stronger on account of control-over-density would allow her to increase the density of her muscles. Or something. OTOH maybe that just makes her disproportionately strong *for her size*, and someone that isn't stuck in midget mode all the time like Yuugi has a greater *potential* strength.

On the other hand I subscribe to the theory that all oni are built like tanks to -some- degree and that trying to determine which oni is strongest is something that only the oni themselves would care about as the distinctions would be academic to the rest of the less UTTERLY RIPPED denizens of Gensokyo. :V

[game2011]

I don't think ZUN means everything in the PC-98 games aren't canon, just that they are no longer relevant to the series, so whether or not they did happen, it doesn't make a difference.

[cirnomodo]

I don't think ZUN means everything in the PC-98 games aren't canon, just that they are no longer relevant to the series, so whether or not they did happen, it doesn't make a difference.

That's a good way to look at it.

For me, I find the way Sanae is described seems a lot weaker than she probably is or intend to be (or else why she is a playable character in TH11 and 12).

[Starxsword]

No, I don't mean that PC-98 isn't canon as much as I would never use it for canon evidence.

There are plenty of events in PC-98 which I would stick by, unless proven otherwise. For example, Yuuka knowing how to shoot very big lasers, Alice carrying that crazy grimoire, Shinki being the creator of Makai, etc. But I wouldn't refer to PC-98 as evidence.

[iK]

If you refuse to accept multiple characters claiming Makai exists on a separate plane than Gensokyo, ZUN never saying otherwise, and nothing windows canon contradicting the claim, then it seems further discussing this topic is just going to be a stagnant affair.

[Tiamat]

IIRC, multiple characters claiming Makai exists on a separate plan than Gensokyo technically also counts as Windows series evidence, since they made that claim in the windows series.  Pretty sure it's mentioned in SoPM somewhere (and I think it's mentioned in UFO somewhere too but am not sure.  It'd be kinda wierd if it wasn't but dunno).

For me, with the exception of Alice (whom I myself sincerely believe that Dolls in Pseudo Paradise and Akyu's statement in Perfect Memento is her Windows canon origin) the windows series ignores the PC-98 series enough that I'm really not sure of any cases where there should be a need to use PC-98 as evidence, since it neither refutes nor proves anything in the windows series.  Even then, there's nothing in PC-98 that proves that Alice is a natural Makai-born being (IE, created by Shinki) in that series, so even Alice isn't necessarily a contradiction.

[AJC]

Kyouko and Kongasa are now more desirable to me for some reason.

not like the our cute umbrella youkai didn't have enough moe points already and she gets another one in being liked by kids.

[Starxsword]

If you refuse to accept multiple characters claiming Makai exists on a separate plane than Gensokyo, ZUN never saying otherwise, and nothing windows canon contradicting the claim, then it seems further discussing this topic is just going to be a stagnant affair.

I never once said I am refusing to accept this, where did you get that idea? I was asking for proof from the Window's series.
I already gave my reasons for refusing proof from PC-98.


Well, it seems like Kourindou is a pretty old store.
Momiji is a shogi enthusiast.
Kisume seems to have gone above ground even prior to Subterranean Animism, when the non-aggression pact should still be in place.
Tenshi is your local personality assessor.