What "Ability to the extent of" actually means...

[_cf]

...besides "nothing" for you English purists, that's it.

Since that discussion is raging, I thought it'd be a good time to talk about what the Touhous are actually doing that justifies the kind of convoluted text ZUN uses.

I think that what's happening there is a mix of innate skills with most of them also studying "magic". Scary quotes because "magic" can be a lot of different formal disciplines ("Shrine Maiden training" for Reimu and Sanae, Martial arts for Youmu, plain old Magic for Marisa and Alice, etc) that have the same end-effect: gives breadth of power to the character.

So, for example, if they need to "slow down time", Sakuya or Kaguya can do that directly with their innate abilities. Yukari and Sanae can use their vague innate abilities and do the same. But anyone with any formal training at all can hack some kind of solution. Yes, really, even Youmu or Meiling. Also yes, this means that someone like Yukari has several ways to do the same thing.

Add to this mix the effect of some powerful races. "Being a Yama" or "Being an Oni", is pretty much the same of having a hugely useful innate skill. Finally, any being who gets very old (like 1000+ years) ends having the same breadth of power than a magic user. I don't know if this is because they found a time in their milenar schedules to study or if "being around for a while" already counts as a formal discipline. Whatever. I did the conservative thing and noted them as both being Elder <thing> and knowing magic.


Here's my interpretation to what the characters can actually do, by game appearance order. I'll divide what's a innate ability and what's formal training. I won't grade how well they are trained to avoid turning this into a LOL POWERLEVELS discussion. Take your own conclusions.


Reimu: Innate ability to fly (away from reality); Innate ability to eat sweets and don't get fat; Formal training as a shrine maiden.
Marisa: No innate ability; Formal training with magic.

Rumia: Innate ability to control darkness; No formal training.
Daiyousei: Innate ability to remain unnamed.
Cirno: Innate ability to control cold; No formal training.
Meiling: Innate ability to turn into a dragon;No innate ability; Formal training with martial arts/qi gong.
Patchouli: No innate ability; Formal training with magic.
Sakuya: Innate ability to control time; Formal training with magic/some kind of knife throwing/assassination martial art/whatever. (Sakuya, more than most Touhous suffers from "too many backgrounds!")
Remilia: Innate ability to control fate; Vampire; Formal training with magic(?)
Flandre: Innate ability to destroy anything; Vampire; Formal training with magic (500 years old magical girl, lol)

Letty: Innate ability to control cold; No formal training? (really, Letty is down there with the Akis in the "characters people don't talk about" category)
Chen: No innate ability; Formal training with magic.
Alice: No innate ability; Formal training with magic; Formal training with doll manipulation
The Prismrivers: Innate ability to play mind affecting music; Formal training as musicians
Youmu: No innate ability; Formal training with martial arts.
Yuyuko: Innate ability to manipulate death; Elder Ghost; Formal training with magic.
Ran: No innate ability; Elder Youkai; Formal training with magic.
Yukari: Innate ability to manipulate boundaries; Elder Youkai; Formal training with magic.

Suika: Innate ability to control density; Oni; Formal training with magic.

Wriggle: Innate ability to control insects; No formal training.
Mystia: Innate ability to confuse/blind people with song; No formal training.
Keine: Innate ability to control history; Formal training with magic.
Tewi: Innate ability to grant luck; Elder Youkai; Formal training with magic?
Reisen: Innate ability to cause insanity; Innate ability to control waves?; Lunarian; Formal training with lunarian knowledge.
Eirin: No innate ability; Lunarian; Formal training with lunarian knowledge.
Kaguya: Innate ability to control the eternity and the instantaneous; Hourai Immortal; Lunarian; Formal training with lunarian knowledge.
Mokou: No innate ability; Hourai Immortal; Formal training with whatever she did to get that badass. (my personal theory is that she melded with a Phoenix)

Yuuka: Innate ability to control flowers; Elder Youkai; Formal training with magic.
Medicine: Innate ability to create poisons; No formal training.
Komachi: No innate ability; Shikigami; Formal training with celestial knowledge.
Shikieiki: No innate ability; Yama; Formal training with celestial knowledge.

Shizuha: Innate ability to control autumn leaves; Kami; No formal training.
Minoriko: Innate ability to control harvests; Kami; No formal training.
Hina: Innate ability to control misfortune; Kami; No formal training.
Nitori: No innate ability; Kappa; Formal training with engineering.
Momiji: No innate ability; Tengu; Formal training with martial arts.
Aya: Innate ability to control the winds; Elder Tengu; Formal training with magic.
Sanae: Innate ability to cause miracles; Formal training as a shrine maiden.
Kanako: Innate ability to create sky; Elder Kami; Formal training with magic.
Suwako: Innate ability to create earth; Elder Kami (maybe not a Kami at all, but something older); Formal training with magic.

Iku: No innate ability;  Formal training with celestial knowledge.
Tenshi: No innate ability; Celestial; Wielder of the sword of Hisou; Formal training with celestial knowledge.

Kisume: Innate ability to control will-o-wisps; No formal training.
Yamame: Innate ability to control diseases; No formal training.
Parsee: Innate ability to control jealousy; No formal training(?)
Yuugi: Innate ability to control supernatural phenomena(); Oni; Formal training with magic.
Satori: Innate ability to read minds; Formal training with magic.
Orin: Innate ability to carry corpses(?); No formal training(?)
Okuu: Innate ability to control nuclear force; No formal training(?)
Koishi: Innate ability to manipulate the unconscious; Formal training with magic.

Nazrin: Innate ability to locate items; Elder Youkai; Formal training with magic(?)
Kogasa: Innate ability to surprise people; No formal training.
Ichirin/Unzan: No innate ability; Elder Youkais; Formal training with Buddhism.
Murasa: Innate ability to sink ships; Elder Youkai; Formal training with Buddhism(?)
Shou: Innate ability to gather treasures; Elder Youkai/Avatar of Bishamonten; Formal training with Buddhism.
Byakuren: No innate ability; Elder Youkai; Formal training with magic and Buddhism.
Nue: Innate ability to make forms unknown; Elder Youkai; Formal training with magic.

Hatate: Innate ability to use spirit photography; Formal training with magic.

Kyouko: Innate ability of reflecting sounds; No formal training (will learn Buddhism).
Yoshika: Innate ability of eating anything; No formal training.
Seiga: Innate ability of passing through walls; Elder Hermit; Formal training with Taoism.
Tojiko: Innate ability to control lightning; Elder Ghost; Formal training with Taoism.
Futo: No innate ability; Elder Hermit; Formal training with Taoism.
Miko: Innate ability to listen to the people's desires; Elder Taoist Saint; Formal training with Taoism
Mamizou: No innate skills; Elder Tanuki; Formal training with magic.

When compiling this list, something became clear: Sometimes ZUN cheats/trolls and writes the "ability" info as something that comes from the character race or training. Sometimes, as with Youmu, or Ichirin/Unzan, it's a bit worse, as the ability text is literally: "ability to do exactly what you're seeing on screen!" Thus, people like Shikieiki, Komachi, Alice, Mamizou or Futo get "no innate skills". Mamizou is a shapechanger because this is what a Tanuki is, while Alice or Futo are just being described as doing their jobs. Finally, Tenshi seems to be the only case in Touhou (at least in the Windows era, I don't know about PC-98) of a character deriving most of her skills from an item.

Regarding the Kappa and Tengu, I gave "no innate ability" to Nitori and Momiji because I assume all Kappa can control water and all wolf Tengu see very far. But I gave "control of winds" to Aya because Hatate is also a crow Tengu and doesn't have that.

Finally, Symposium of Post-Mysticism is about to be released and I HOPE it fills the holes I have in my knowledge about the later games (seriously, I have no idea of what kind of people the girls of the Palace of the Earth Spirits are).

[Zil]

Thank you for including the most important of Reimu's abilities.

Personally I was always under the impression that Sakuya got her power from her pocketwatch, though if that's contradicted somewhere in something I haven't read (which is everything), then I guess I was wrong about that.

[Tiamat]

Perfect Memento states that a normal human can't get Sakuya's time manipulation through training alone (implying something else must have given it to her).

ZUN has replied in e-mail correspondence ("ZUN's e-mails" on the wiki if it hasn't changed) that the text on Sakuya's bomb in PCB is meant to mean she's trapped by her own power (and that there's a mystery behind that)

Her profile in EoSD states that her power distanced her from humans, making her grow cold to them as a result (which could imply several things, such as maybe she received the power involuntarily, or maybe she received it voluntarily but just didn't care about or expected the social consequences)

...righto.

[_cf]

Thank you for including the most important of Reimu's abilities.

Personally I was always under the impression that Sakuya got her power from her pocketwatch, though if that's contradicted somewhere in something I haven't read (which is everything), then I guess I was wrong about that.

I only include relevant info on my charts.

Re: Sakuya, she's a complete mystery. There's also a bit of info somewhere (I tried to find it on the wiki now, without success) that Eirin got surprised seeing Sakuya.

If I'm remembering the Eirin bit correctly, then add "it's a lunarian conspiracy" to the big bag of confusing background Sakuya has to carry around.

[Tengukami]

Re: Sakuya, she's a complete mystery. There's also a bit of info somewhere (I tried to find it on the wiki now, without success) that Eirin got surprised seeing Sakuya.

If I'm remembering the Eirin bit correctly, then add "it's a lunarian conspiracy" to the big bag of confusing background Sakuya has to carry around.

What's confusing? Sakuya's a Lunarian. I thought this was common knowledge.


:trollface:

[_cf]

What's confusing? Sakuya's a Lunarian. I thought this was common knowledge.


:trollface:

This is common knowledge much like Meiling being a dragon Yukari being related to Maribel Kasen being an oni. Lots of arrows pointing to an obvious conclusion, that's never outright spelled out. That's just how ZUN rolls, I think.

[Tengukami]

This is common knowledge much like Meiling being a dragon

If someone ever wanted an example of "shakey, thinly-stretched fan theories based on wish fulfillment," this would be the one I'd reach for.

Yukari being related to Maribel

Actually, Yukari and Maribel are ... are you ready? ... THE SAME PERSON.

Lots of arrows pointing to an obvious conclusion, that's never outright spelled out. That's just how ZUN rolls, I think.

Yep, that's pretty much been his entire MO, I'd say.

[Starxsword]

I would not call some of them innate abilities, even the ones that seem like it, may not be an innate ability. Some of them sound like they are, like Sakuya's ability to Stop Time, some of them aren't, like Marisa's ability to use Magic.

Reimu: Innate ability to fly (away from reality); Innate ability to eat sweets and don't get fat; Formal training as a shrine maiden.

Reimu can float away from reality. But that is not her ability. I take issue with this, because it seems to imply her ability to fly is somehow related to her ability to use Fantasy Heaven. Which it may or may not be related to.

For example, Kogasa you listed, does not actually have an innate ability to surprise people, as she is not too effective at doing that. So, it is more like "practices in the art of surprising people."

[_cf]

If someone ever wanted an example of "shakey, thinly-stretched fan theories based on wish fulfillment," this would be the one I'd reach for.

Eh, Meiling's Danmaku is rainbow or flowing water (rain, typhoon) themed. Chinese dragons are supposed to be linked to rainbows and flowing water. THIS IS PROOF, PEOPLE!

Actually, Yukari and Maribel are ... are you ready? ... THE SAME PERSON.

This is the feel I get from Tiamat's thesis time and time again.
Now, I read that whole thread a while ago, and while there's much more "proof" there, I slashed it for precisely the same reason I slashed the "Meiling is a dragon" theory. Unlike the Kasen being an Oni, where it'd be in bad taste to be otherwise, the world of Maribel and Renko can also be there to show how reality creates coincidences in several narratives.
Seriously, when I first read Renko and Maribel stories, my immediate thinking was that ZUN was doing something like the "Tales of the Black Freighter" in Watchmen. He created another universe and started to use it to show the allegories and repeating motifs of Touhou. So, when Renko mentions the concept of Necrofantasy or when the tall blonde girl in a mop cap sees boundaries, it's not, for me, a THIS IS PROOF, PEOPLE! moment, but a poignant example of how our current understanding of causality plainly sucks.

I... I just typed a disagreement over a popular forum theory in my own unrelated thread...

Nope, can't see it (<= Carefree)

[_cf]

For example, Kogasa you listed, does not actually have an innate ability to surprise people, as she is not too effective at doing that. So, it is more like "practices in the art of surprising people."

I told you I wouldn't be ranking power, man. I told you. IIRC my first thread here was immediately shelved because it touched the LOL, POWERLEVELS issue.

But yeah, Kogasa, just as Rumia, just isn't good with her own innate skill. You can even milk this for all the sad girl moe you can squeeze, and fandom does just that. I won't provide links from Danbooru, my usual haunt, to prove that, because there's usually something horrid (like a boob) in the ads around the pictures. This in the rare cases where the boob isn't, say, the main attraction.

Rumia, she has the huge SONANOKA catchphrase, besides a strong "predator" meme also going for her, so it's rare that's she used as the "idiot girl who bumps in trees".

Kogasa? Kogasa is milked for just that, all the time.

[haoreos2]

Power rankings aside, if you can't surprise people significantly more often than the average peer you can't really claim to possess an innate power to surprise people.
Rumia's ability, sucky though it may be, is still an innate ability because it actually exists.

(Danbooru with adblocker is Danbooru sans ads, is best Danbooru)

[_cf]

Power rankings aside, if you can't surprise people significantly more often than the average peer you can't really claim to possess an innate power to surprise people.
Rumia's ability, sucky though it may be, is still an innate ability because it actually exists.

(Danbooru with adblocker is Danbooru sans ads, is best Danbooru)

I think you're right now, and that Kogasa can be just another example of ZUN trolling (saying that a Karakasa has the power to surprise people is a bit like saying that a Kitsune has the power to love Aburaage).

As for Danbooru, I paid the twenty bucks to become a privileged user a while ago, so I'm not even aware of extraneous boobage. I was just parroting the usual warning I see about it here. But yeah, adblocker rules.

[Darth_Sirov]

The characters are mostly laid back in terms of their characteristics. If they're all good at what they do, most of the fun-loving aspects of them would disappear. It's just another way to make them lovable.

Besides, this is Gensokyo where common sense don't apply, thus we got Karakasas that can't seem to surprise/scare people (which myth states they easily do so in the real world, assuming there are actual people who witnessed such), or Youkais with Darkness-based abilities is technically blind (if she was a tad more serious, esp. in terms of fighting you, I would surmise she'd do something similar to Mystia like blocking out your entire vision).

[Starxsword]

Rumia's ability may be crappy, but it is magical darkness and It can't be penetrated by light or so it says...

[Darth_Sirov]

Rumia's ability may be crappy, but it is magical darkness and It can't be penetrated by light or so it says...

You'd think she'd be a match with or against Sunny Milk, where her main ability is making things invisible.

[Starxsword]

Oh, and how about those characters are are immune to certain abilities? It is almost certain that Reisen and Komachi are immune to the 3 fairies' abilities.

[Tiamat]

Eh, Meiling's Danmaku is rainbow or flowing water (rain, typhoon) themed. Chinese dragons are supposed to be linked to rainbows and flowing water. THIS IS PROOF, PEOPLE!This is the feel I get from Tiamat's thesis time and time again.
Now, I read that whole thread a while ago, and while there's much more "proof" there, I slashed it for precisely the same reason I slashed the "Meiling is a dragon" theory. Unlike the Kasen being an Oni, where it'd be in bad taste to be otherwise, the world of Maribel and Renko can also be there to show how reality creates coincidences in several narratives.
Seriously, when I first read Renko and Maribel stories, my immediate thinking was that ZUN was doing something like the "Tales of the Black Freighter" in Watchmen. He created another universe and started to use it to show the allegories and repeating motifs of Touhou. So, when Renko mentions the concept of Necrofantasy or when the tall blonde girl in a mop cap sees boundaries, it's not, for me, a THIS IS PROOF, PEOPLE! moment, but a poignant example of how our current understanding of causality plainly sucks.

I... I just typed a disagreement over a popular forum theory in my own unrelated thread...

Nope, can't see it (<= Carefree)

Mweh. That old thread wasn't really proof persay, but it was before ZUN himself confirmed that the relationship between Maribel and Yukari had something to do with Lafcadio Hearn.  At which point there's a lot more weight than that it was just a coincidence, IMHO.  ...unless there's something about how the actual Lafcadio Hearn exists only to show the allegories and repeating motifs of Koizumi Yakumo that I'm not seeing here.  At any rate, if someone still thinks that it's all just a coincidence, then there's no point in arguing further. Once ZUN responded to a question specifically asking about wht the relationship was saying that it had to do with Lafcadio Hearn, the only possible way ZUN could have gone further regarding if Maribel really was Yukari or not is to say it directly, and he's obviously not going to do that by this point.  (....if he DOES do so in either SoPM or Trojan Asteroid, then I'll stand corrected, I guess. Not holding my breath, though)

[haoreos2]

Which I'm personally glad for. A bunch of hinting towards something makes for interesting discussions and fanworks, flat-out stating it just makes it another peice of throwaway trivia.

[Tiamat]

Maribel and Yukari having something going on, even if just symbollic (which I doubt, given the nature of the question and answer ZUN gave, but I still concede it's possible to interpret it that way even if unlikely), is at least now confirmed by ZUN himself, unlike Meiling and the dragon theory (hec, we can't even confirm that Chinese dragons that Meiling clearly has some things based or at least referenced on and the dragon worshipped as a god are one and the same, although from what we know so far there seems to be quite a few similiarities. And even if we could confirm that, Meiling's references to it could just be... well, references)

Eirin being surprised to see Sakuya is in Eirin's profile.

Er, yea, I guess I should add something on topic.  Reimu has some ability to do something with borders, as needed to fulfill her task of watching over the Hakurei border. I'm not sure it's ever explicitly stated WHAT, but you can see it in her spell cards and the fact that in CoLA, she manages to get Yukari's attention by purposefully damaging the Hakurei border a little.  I imagine it's innate from the Hakurei lineage, but not sure if that's confirmed.

[Tengukami]

unlike Meiling and the dragon theory (hec, we can't even confirm that Chinese dragons that Meiling clearly has some things based or at least referenced on and the dragon worshipped as a god are one and the same, although from what we know so far there seems to be quite a few similiarities. And even if we could confirm that, Meiling's references to it could just be... well, references)

Exactly.

The Meiling/Dragon "theory" is a great example of how to use Occam's Razor. Sure, there's symbology and references than she has in common with dragons. You know what else does? CHINA. So hey, maybe - just maybe! - all them "dragon" references are actually just among all the various and sundry Chinese symbols her character already canonically uses.

Arguing with people who seriously believe Hong Meiling is a dragon is like arguing with Ron Paul supporters.

[_cf]

If we'd ignore the "Tales of Black Freighter" thing, then my headcanon about Maribel and Yukari would be like this:

1 - Yukari meets Lafcadio Hearn and influences him. In her honor, Lafcadio changes his family name to Yakumo. Maybe Yukari even had something to do with the start of the human Yakumo family *nudge nudge, wink wink*
2 - A long time passes. Gensokyo is destroyed, Yukari dies with it.
3 - A descendant of Lafcadio Hearn named Maribel is born, with similar powers than Yukari had.
4 - Maribel feels drawn to memories of a land she never saw before, one day, using her powers, she starts going there in dreams, but they are real enough for for the two times to touch: She leaves a note there, and bring a memento.
5 - One fateful day, she ends going to that land when awake, but it was an one way trip. She's stuck there.
6 - In Gensokyo's past Maribel is eaten by a mindless predatory Youkai resembling the gap Yukari uses
7 - Her essence melds with this Youkai and a new being is born, Yukari
8 - Time passes, Yukari does meets Yuyuko, the Hakurei Kannushi, etc.
9 - goto 1

A stable time loop. Because it's a kind of a clich? in SF, and I think it's pretty much the kind of loopy thing ZUN would go for. It also muddles who is who. Both are destroyed before the other is born and both have a hand at the creation of the other. It's symmetrical.

But enough talk here. I have little time to enjoy my super powered headcanon Yuugi. I got to write more fic.

[Tiamat]

Which I'm personally glad for. A bunch of hinting towards something makes for interesting discussions and fanworks, flat-out stating it just makes it another peice of throwaway trivia.

You know, when I made my post underneath your's, it was supposed to comment on this, but I was in a rush and my thoughts wandered and I posted something completely unrelated.

...but yea, ZUN stated that there are some secrets that he keeps to himself or to his friends, and this is obviously one of them, which is why I don't expect him to ever state it directly.  Heck, the fact that he bothered confirming there really is something that exists between Yukari and Maribel was probably something he never intended to do but finally decided to after years! (the interview where he confirmed it is relatively recent compared to how long it's been since Maribel's last story)

[Nobody]

If you want to know more about the abilities, it might be worth checking out how the character pages were like before I removed everything I previously added due to being unattributed translations from the Nicovideo Encyclopedia (in the "history" for each of the pages, it should be the revision immediately before the "moved to Nicovideo Encyclopedia/[Character Name]" revision). The Nicovideo Encyclopedia is essentially a Japanese Wiki that covers Touhou, and is mostly accurate with regards to what is official in Touhou―but which I removed anyways due to attribution issues (and now explicitly acknowledged by putting it into a page specifically marked as a Nicovideo Encyclopedia translation).

For example, see the revision here. Such old revisions exist for all characters except Nitori, Momiji, and Shou.

Also a reply to the first post: I would like to note that Reimu's abilities as the Miko of Hakurei are mostly not from training, but are rather innate, since she seldom does training (except in certain cases, like when she is told to). For example, in the Shanghai Alice Correspondence for Immaterial and Missing Power, it was written, "she lacks training in both melee and spells (or rather, she rarely does them), but she covers that up with the numerous talents she's born with. So she's quite tough, enough to make you wonder if she's really a human." Such abilities that come from her position as the Miko of Hakurei, of course, have nothing to do any ability to fly.

[Starxsword]

Such abilities that come from her position as the Miko of Hakurei, of course, have nothing to do any ability to fly.

I would not stretch that assumption further than what it should be. Her abilities may come from her position as the Hakurei miko or it could just be that she is a prodigy.
While it is true that Reimu does not train much, she is very much in tune with nature and mysticism. This in itself is training. Like Marisa, who enjoys researching, Reimu enjoys culture and several things related to shrine maiden duties.

[pineyappled]

If we take PC-98 as canon, Reimu couldn't always fly.

[iK]

The only reasonable conclusion is that the colour black is naturally more buoyant than purple.

[IdiotsOpposite]

The only reasonable conclusion is that the colour black is naturally more buoyant than purple.

In the PC-98 version, Reimu's outfit had shoulders. In the Windows version, Reimu's outfit didn't have shoulders. Clearly the shoulder parts on her outfit are what were holding her back.

[Darth_Sirov]

In the PC-98 version, Reimu's outfit had shoulders. In the Windows version, Reimu's outfit didn't have shoulders. Clearly the shoulder parts on her outfit are what were holding her back.

That's pretty much saying she needs to strip down to speed up her flying.

[iK]

That's pretty much saying she needs to strip down to speed up her flying.

Yes I thought that was quite obviously how it worked.

[Darth_Sirov]

Yes I thought that was quite obviously how it worked.

Does it also explain why she has a smaller hitbox as compared to the others?