Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Beyond the Border~ => Daiyousei's Cold Storage => Topic started by: Cirno on April 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM

Title: Lesson #1
Post by: Cirno on April 21, 2009, 07:47:28 AM
We'll start out simple:

(http://xs138.xs.to/xs138/09172/22553bb9eb5c8ef69c2334561d1a575c908.png)

As you should already know, this is the formula used to deal with simple particle tunneling. Really, it's common knowledge. However, I have provided it here in case you are one of those anti-erudites who failed out of elementary school.

The question is simple:

Marisa has a great big wall of stars in front of her. Alice is trying to shoot through it with her laser. Her laser is at 4.7 power. The wall of stars is composed entirely of the big stars - one star thick, but they are close enough together that nothing can get through them.

Shanghai had a cold yesterday, but she seems to be getting over it.

Marisa dropped her hat earlier in the battle and now her head is kind of cold.

Alice really just wants to give Marisa a hug but she's being all tsundere about it.

It's Wednesday. Ash Wednesday to be exact.

What is the probability of Alice's laser penetrating Marisa's eldritch barrier? And what will be the consequences if Marisa is nailed with entirety of Alice's fiery temper powered magical load?

This is ostensibly an open book exam, but I don't think any notes will help you. Good luck.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: WHMZakeri on April 21, 2009, 07:51:43 AM
Quote
This is ostensibly an open book exam, but I don't think any notes will help you.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: ♛ Apher-Forte on April 21, 2009, 08:01:32 AM
Hi, I don't think you are Cirno, proof or GTFO
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Cirno on April 21, 2009, 08:03:47 AM
Hi, I don't think you are Cirno, proof or GTFO

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: ♛ Apher-Forte on April 21, 2009, 08:09:24 AM
IMPOSSIBLE!

lulz owned
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Mr_Bob on April 21, 2009, 08:26:05 AM
What is the probability of Alice's laser penetrating Marisa's eldritch barrier? And what will be the consequences if Marisa is nailed with entirety of Alice's firey temper powered magical load?
I am going to answer with: 0 because there are no buses in Gen- *gapped in train*
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: shadowbringer on April 21, 2009, 08:31:36 AM
sorry, I couldn't calculate and provide the answer, but I've gathered some elements that might help one elaborate a formula that might bring someone closer to an approximate result..

- A is the stars' average resistance (it may sometimes be stronger than edible danmaku)
- B is the atmosphere's pressure (it's supposed to affect the stars and lasers' speed; also, humans such as Marisa are much more vulnerable to cold than youkai magicians)
- C is the environment's temperature (their attacks might be blotting out the sun)
- D is the amount of time the fight has been going on (knowing that, as mentioned before, Marisa is more vulnerable to cold, Alice should aim to tire her out -- a.k.a. turtle her way to victory --, while Marisa should aim for a faster conclusion)
- E is the amount of magical energy Marisa's using on that spellcard
- F is the amount of magical energy Alice's using on her attack
- G is the remainder of Marisa's magical energy
- H is the remainder of Alice's magical energy (not factoring in the dolls' arsenal, since some of them were found in other occasions to contain powder -- like in SA)
- I is Shanghai's current temperature
- J is the angle at which Alice's laser is attacking the circle (Alice has these options: attacking Marisa through the star belt, which means attacking the star belt through it's weakest spot, should the belt be rotating around Marisa; attacking the star belt at its tangent to either weaken it or to cause some imbalance, hoping to create a weak point in it; moving to another position where either Alice can attack Marisa directly, or snipe her; simply wait until Marisa's protective barrier is timed out)
- K is Marisa's current stamina
- L is Alice's current stamina

there are other things that could factor into this formula, like Marisa having some offense plan (like baiting Alice into firing her laser, and then blinding her or Spark her to take advantage of the lesser reaction time, or summoning a laser from under Alice; or bombing, then taking advantage of the invulnerability time to smack Alice with her broom; or using some uncommon resources/elements that she happened to come across; or she might choose to defeat her dolls first) and them using the environment to their advantage..
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Prody on April 21, 2009, 12:06:18 PM
Zero.

Because there are no buses in.. oh wait.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Benny1 on April 21, 2009, 01:49:44 PM
Let's see, so Shanghai just had a cold?  That means Alice is using Hourai today, and Hourai is stronger, take that into account.

It's Ash Wednesday, but we're in Japan so nobody cares.  It is Wednesday though, so everybody is at their peak, because Wednesday is the middle of the week.

Now, assume each star needs X amount of damage to be broken through.  Since it's 1 star thick, but they're big stars, x is obviously an enormous number.

Alice's lasers are weak, even at 4.7 power.  We all know she relies on Malice Cannon to not be the worst character ever conceived, so take that into account!

Now, Marisa dropped her hat, which will just make her more mad, even if her head is colder, so the stars increase in power.  This means it's like 2x to break through a star, which is indeed a huge difference.

Alice is being tsundere, so her power is actually lower.  Like 4.5.  This is probably a good thing for Marisa.

Tsundere does last for a long time though, but if you look at Alice's hourai beam in IaMP, where imaginably she was doing quite well because she was very well fed, it's really not that long of an attack.  Let's say a star has 75 HP normally, so it has 150 now.  I think this is reasonable with Marisa's familiars in her IN attacks.

I will take 4.5 to mean damage per second, each hourai beam lasts two seconds.  She can have up to 9 power bars, going by IaMP's rules, and maybe she has a secret spellcard hiding that can do 20 damage.

Unfortunately, since Marisa lost her hat, there is a 0% chance that Alice will win.

But wait!  Let's say there is a 30% chance that Reimu will stumble upon this battle.  There is also a 75% chance that Reimu is mad at Marisa and would rather help Alice than Marisa.  Therefore, Reimu will obviously put the hat back on and suddenly, Marisa will eat laser.  26 damage if the secret spellcard is used, 6 if not.

The consequences are probably pretty small.  Alice will feel bad and make up for it anyways, so what does it matter?  But in the end, a 22.5% chance of her winning isn't bad.  Yay.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Alice on April 21, 2009, 03:14:13 PM
It is DIFFICULT. ⑨
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on April 21, 2009, 03:44:36 PM
This question gives incomplete information. If the wall of stars is being created through normal magic it is immaterial and thus Alice will penetrate it with a 100% probability. If it's from a spellcard - say, Stardust Reverie - then the odds of Alice penetrating are zero as the card will absorb the laser well before it comes close to Marisa.

As for consequences in terms of damage, again we have incomplete information - are we running from the Parker-Clinton-Boule theory, or the Immanuel-Nicholson theory? For Parker-Clinton-Boule, Marisa can be expected to suffer immediate death if the laser connects, while for Immanuel-Nicholson she will survive for several seconds before showing any sign of difficulty.

Disappointing for your first time teaching, Ms. Cirno. See me after class.
~ Keine Kamishirasawa
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Gpop on April 21, 2009, 04:05:17 PM
Answer is 9.

Because I fucking said so.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Moogy on April 21, 2009, 04:17:08 PM
firey
learn to fucking spell question invalid
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Letty Whiterock on April 21, 2009, 04:37:06 PM
learn to fucking spell question invalid
revalidated
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Young Demon Lord on April 21, 2009, 05:39:06 PM
What is the probability of Alice's laser penetrating Marisa's eldritch barrier? And what will be the consequences if Marisa is nailed with entirety of Alice's fiery temper powered magical load?

The answer is, the answer is, zero chance, zero chance.
That's because, that's because...
Alice isn't the one with the Master Spark!
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Tapsa on April 21, 2009, 06:02:07 PM
quantum mechanics
CANNOT COMPREHEND/LISTEN/CONCENTRATE LAHLAHLAHLAHLAHLAHLAHLAH NOT LISTENING
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Demonlord Pichu on April 21, 2009, 06:12:40 PM
You say Marisa dropped her hat? That means her power's been subtracted because everyone knows (most) Touhous can't function properly with those silly hats/hair ornaments.

And Alice is being tsundere about something? Hmm~

Final Answer: 10.8% chance of penatrating (shut up) the barrier and if it does get through the damage would most likely be minimal.

Is this wrong? Of course it is, would you expect anything less from someone who sucks at this sorta subject?
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: WHMZakeri on April 21, 2009, 07:22:07 PM
Quote
It's Ash Wednesday, but we're in Japan so nobody cares.  It is Wednesday though, so everybody is at their peak, because Wednesday is the middle of the week.

We can safely rule out the fact that it's wednesday, since both person's power increases in an equal amount. This has no real bearing, since 256x = 256x and x = x are really no different when factoring a power to power conclusion. This will play a major role if either of them get hit by the attacks and we can expect one person to fall out immediately, however we're looking for the chance Alice's attack would hit in the first place, not the damage.

Quote
Alice's lasers are weak, even at 4.7 power.  We all know she relies on Malice Cannon to not be the worst character ever conceived, so take that into account!

We also have to take into account what the Max power is. If we're running from the standard 5.00 Scale, then most likely Alice is already at full power, but will need one more in order to get a free bomb without losing a doll. However, from SA, we know her power under Marisa's use can reach up to 8.00, which means while he main shot is still weak, her basic shot has more power than normal, since she's not focusing more than her maximum power into the Main shots. This is, however also failing to take into account what Alice's Maximum power truly is. We can't assume it stops at 8 because Marisa may not have been use to using dolls. Remember, the most options anyone uses is usually four, but Alice is using upwards of a dozen dolls at once.

Quote
Alice is being tsundere, so her power is actually lower.  Like 4.5.  This is probably a good thing for Marisa.

I forgot to address this above, but if we could determine if Alice had a gift or not, this could be combined with the fact that it's Ash Wednesday to increase her Tsundere. This is especially true since they don't celebrate Ash wednesday, and even if they did, who gives Gifts on that day anyway? This could potentially make Alice more determined to win and hide away that she brought a gift in the first place for such a stupid reason, only to get attacked.

Teacher! o/
Did Alice bring a Gift to Marisa?

Quote
But wait!  Let's say there is a 30% chance that Reimu will stumble upon this battle.
Irrelevant. Reimu never goes out on holiday. Even ones Gensokyo doesn't celebrate.

as far as I can tell, Alice's chance to penetrate is, at a 5.00 scale power, 27.3%, scaling down by 1.2% for every max power above, which taken at 8.00 would be 23.7%

If the gift is involved, the chance increases slightly, but I'll wait for an answer to my question to see if I have to calculate it. It's hard working with the principals of Tsundere.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: KumaKinko on April 21, 2009, 08:27:02 PM
Alice doesn't NEED to pierce any stars! spell card law says that all danmaku must be doge-able, so Alice just needs to find the gap and shoot through there.

and, according to MegaMari, Alice's laser is a piercing weapon and would just go right through the stars anyways.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: E-Nazrin on April 21, 2009, 08:51:52 PM
Just to note, this is the best thread ever.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Alice on April 21, 2009, 09:22:22 PM
Alice will di everything to bring back Marisa's hat like in Marisa and Alice. Besides, Alice didn't need to go through wall of stars in the first place, she could go to Hakurei Shrine backyard and start to pound 5 inches nail into Marisa effigies. This should clear up the problem.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Gpop on April 21, 2009, 09:26:28 PM
Everyone's over-analyzing this.

I'm telling you it's 9. It's always 9.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Alice on April 21, 2009, 09:27:44 PM
Everyone's over-analyzing this.

I'm telling you it's 9. It's always 9.
Only Cirno or persons that have same idiocy level as Cirno would answer 9.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Slaves on April 21, 2009, 11:02:55 PM
I cannot comprehend
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: WHMZakeri on April 21, 2009, 11:14:46 PM
I cannot comprehend
says the guy with the Suwako is Suwako's Hat's Hat avatar.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Doomsday on April 21, 2009, 11:22:06 PM
i also cannot comprehend.
so i get an award?
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Slaves on April 22, 2009, 12:01:11 AM
i also cannot comprehend.
so i get an award?

CONGRATULATIONS ARE IN ORDER
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: nintendonut888 on April 22, 2009, 01:43:34 AM
The answer is definitely (9). (9) ties. A tie.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on April 22, 2009, 03:09:56 AM
Quote
Cirno
Quote
Idiot Maiden

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/SakuraRurouni/parseeRAGE.jpg)
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Mr_Bob on April 22, 2009, 09:05:17 AM
This exam would actually be feasible if we had field notes/experimental data on:

The kinetic and potential energy and mass of Alice's laser particles
The kinetic and potential energy, as well as length, of Marisa's Eldritch Barrier

To Genskyo, for field work!
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Momiji on April 22, 2009, 11:03:16 AM
To Genskyo, for field work!
OH BOY FIELD TRIP!! XO

Which brings up a question... how would you actually measure (accurately, at that) the various properties of danmaku and the other magical things in Gensokyo? =o
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Gpop on April 22, 2009, 01:03:49 PM
The answer is definitely ⑨. ⑨ ties. A tie.

Some supports my answer.

Therefore it's correct.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Maid Xan~ on April 24, 2009, 04:43:25 AM
No, you see, Alice cannot win, simply because Marisa's lack of a hat means that she is going to be on the moon within a very short amount of time. Alice does not come along. Yorihime will curbstomp Marisa. Irritation will be had by fans until we find out that Yuyuko has stolen the moonbitches' sake. And then we will have lulz.

Also, Epic topic. 10/10 would read again.

I expect to see more good stuff from Cirno.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Sodium on April 26, 2009, 01:23:13 AM
...Who owns the Cirno account? Whoever he/she is, read what Xan said.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Edible on April 26, 2009, 09:46:16 PM
And what will be the consequences if Marisa is nailed with entirety of Alice's fiery temper powered magical load?

Pregnancy.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Drake on April 27, 2009, 12:03:33 AM
Pregnancy.
thatsthejoke.jpg
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: DarkslimeZ on April 27, 2009, 01:58:36 PM
Wow, Cirno is so stupid.

Alice's laser and Marisa's stars are both energy, which means they are both waves. The WKB approximation for the tunneling coefficient of a wave incident on a barrier sort of assumes that the barrier itself is physical(or an actual change in the medium the wave is traveling through, which doesn't include another wave), not another wave. Thus, the most that will happen when Alice's laser hits the stars is some wave interference. Depending on the structure of the waves, a few things could happen. The laser could bounce right off of the stars, or could diffract through the stars and split(depending on how far apart the stars were from each other).

Given that Alice's power is currently 4.5, I would go for the diffraction occurring. The laser will split into a certain number of paths, and they may or may not hit Marisa. Considering Alice is tsundere and just wants to give Marisa a hug, and assuming she knows all this, she will purposely get one of the diffracted beams to hit her in order to knock her out for a second so she can advance and give her the hug.

duh.


(note: I don't believe a wave can diffract through another wave. That part was just there for the sake of finishing the problem the wrong way)
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on April 27, 2009, 02:30:30 PM
Re: Wave theory -

Technically, if we are to consider both Marisa and Alice to be emitting waves in opposite directions, they would produce a stationary wave. In this instance the two most distant nodes of the wave would obviously be Alice and Marisa, and at these points the amplitude of the waves is zero and therefore Alice does not penetrate the barrier.

However, this is only assuming that the waves behave like waves. In correct circumstances it is possible to observe them acting totally like particles would (for example, the photoelectric effect) and if this were the case then the answer to the problem is completely different. But we don't know if Marisa's defense or Alice's attack consists of waves, particles, particles acting like waves or vice versa, and thus we are unable to progress further due to a lack of information.

A good effort, Miss Cirno, but as Mr. Darkslime has pointed out the inability to recognise the boundary between waves and particles causes the question to fall apart. Here's hoping Lesson 2 is somewhat more solid.

~Yukari Yakumo

And yes, that was all buildup for a Boundary of Wave and Particle joke.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: DarkslimeZ on April 27, 2009, 02:55:09 PM
And even if they were traveling in opposite directions, they'd need to have the exact same amplitude in order to produce the stationary wave. The slightest bit of inaccuracy would cause a much weaker wave to be going in one direction.

Considering that they might indeed be light, there's always the wave-particle duality theory. Which also doesn't fit into quantum tunneling. (Since we don't even know what the fuck light is in the first place.)


why can't I make my actual physics lead to a joke like that
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: AntKiller on April 28, 2009, 10:06:19 PM
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z129/biones/cirno_laser.jpg)
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: shinyjam on April 29, 2009, 02:31:38 AM
If wave-particle duality theory fit into quantum tunneling = LAZER.

Light + Tube = LAZER

Cirno has proven it.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: E-Nazrin on April 29, 2009, 06:18:53 AM
Well, that was easy.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: DarkslimeZ on April 29, 2009, 08:31:02 PM
If wave-particle duality theory fit into quantum tunneling = LAZER.

Light + Tube = LAZER

Cirno has proven it.

That's so irrelevant. XD

Unfortunately, the basis of the theory, IIRC, is that light exhibits properties of both waves and particles, and because of that, doesn't behave exactly like one or the other.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Cirno on April 30, 2009, 06:11:51 PM
Results:

Benny1 - 10/10
Edible - 7/10
Zakeri - 8/10
e-mouse - 6/10

All other scores were below 5/10 and thus failed the course. While I was fairly amused by Roukankan and darkslime's cute attempts to be smart, you guys should know by now that, in order to recieve points on an exam, you must answer the questions as they are presented. This was not a model perfectly representative of the real world. Such a model would require a far greater degree of mathematics and precision than I can reasonably expect the boorish souls here to comprehend. When presented with an arithmetic test in elementary school, did you write a rant about how the integers you were using were not nearly as accurate a representation of our numbering system as an explicitly set theory based approach to counting? I thought not.

It seems I've got my work cut out for me. Let's see if you all can do better on the next exam...
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Tapsa on April 30, 2009, 06:17:07 PM
(http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/e25e6a16a8293115f1029b062837ad80.png)
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Tapsa on April 30, 2009, 07:03:25 PM
(http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/4ccf29d09a5ffc13fef3bcd24dbe388e.png)
We are born to do the maths, commander.
But not like this.

Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: shinyjam on April 30, 2009, 07:39:57 PM
We are born to do the maths, commander.
But not like this.
It's call the Math of ⑨

8 more lesson to go.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Gpop on April 30, 2009, 07:48:07 PM
I must've miscalculated something. I swear the answer was 9 =/.
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on April 30, 2009, 10:51:25 PM
HEY

HEY CIRNO

MASTER OF THE IDIOT MAIDENS

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/SakuraRurouni/XTREME_FISICKS.jpg)

SOLVE THIS
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: Suikama on April 30, 2009, 11:07:39 PM
HEY

HEY CIRNO

MASTER OF THE IDIOT MAIDENS

(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p307/SakuraRurouni/XTREME_FISICKS.jpg)

SOLVE THIS
/me tries to stop the master spark with his bare hands.
But it failed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IrsTNxy-pI
Title: Re: Lesson #1
Post by: E-Nazrin on May 01, 2009, 05:34:08 AM
Moe.

Yes.

Apocalypse moe~