Author Topic: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread  (Read 14337 times)

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Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« on: March 16, 2010, 08:02:53 AM »
I am in wholesome support of fanon Alice or DereAlice as she is commonly known. I for one like Dere Alice, and anyone else in the I think Fanon is stupid camp has no business playing Touhou or liking for that matter.

In my honest opinion, Touhou IS BUILT BY FANON.

true, the game has some honest gaming pleasures, but what is that compared with fanon support it so ever expanded from?
To say you don't like fanon portrayal of characters imo, is like I dunno, maybe I don't really like Touhou afterall.

I just about had enough yet another day when I seen a thread elsewhere talking about how stupid fanon Alice is. Oh come on, there is NOTHING bad about fanon yuri either, or Alice for that matter. Why hate? the comments just piss me off really.

What is so good about the vague canon that ZUN writes that makes it so much better? Re-interpretations are bad? give me a break. :/
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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 08:06:59 AM »
Well without the fandom the only people that likely would have known about touhou would be hardcore shump fans.

Anyways haters gonna hate.

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 08:08:58 AM »
What is so good about the vague canon that ZUN writes that makes it so much better? Re-interpretations are bad? give me a break. :/

I'm just going to restate what I said in the writing discussion thread.

I've seen too many people reject everything fanon out of hand on sheer basis of being fanon. The cool thing to do these days is to declare yourself a devotee of canon, without interpretation or analysis or extrapolation from established traits, because that is stupid fanon practice. Such people do not use their brains and are just going with it because it's the "in" thing to do.

I agree with you, sir.

And specifically, concerning Alice: I like deredere Alice. She is adorable. But much to my shame, I really like SWR's canon badass Alice. Holy cow, talk about awesome.

Also, in before someone says some bullshit like U DUN PLAY TOHOO GAMES ON PACIFUST LUNATIC UR NOT A TRUE FAN

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2010, 08:12:34 AM »
eh, my opinions exactly.
there is nothing wrong with making adorable reinterpretations, but people rant about it as though it is insulting the fandom.
urgh.
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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2010, 08:19:53 AM »
This is the unspoken danger of over-devotion to bare-bones canon, AF: The last thing a series like Touhou needs is people going all srs buisiness over it. Maybe fanon goes a bit overboard, but it's a small price to pay instead of creative minds censoring themselves for fear of subverting ZUN's canon, when half the attraction of Touhou fandom has been that it's an opportunity to be completely whimsical and indulge in a bit of good-natured lunacy.

If the fandom doesn't like an aspect of how things are turning out, then individual fans can feel free to ignore it in their own works, whether that's writing, drawing, fangames, or whatever. The beauty of an open fanon is that all sorts of ideas can be put forward, and the good ones will tend to catch on while the bad ones will wither. Trying to short-circuit the process by bullying creative minds into silence shouldn't be tolerated.

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 08:36:05 AM »
I agree with Dere Alice being adorable and the Badass Alice being also so, but what I really like
is the combination of two... Well I guess it's sort of Tsundere.

Anyhow, concidering the inflation stuff like Touhou's seen with fanon, I'd have to say fans are what gets the series going and without your average fans you aren't gonna last too long in the gaming world...and I don't mean SHMUP expert fans because some of them say stuff like "Flandre's Q.E.D. ? Oh puhlease she wold need to constantly shoot random rain of bullets like Hibachi with that to be considered difficult!", and thus scare away incoming fans.
As Yukari says "Gensokyo accepts all."
So I don't see any reasons to deny fanons off the bat.

...I'm sorry I sound like bullshit since I was not exactly too shure of the argument going on...

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2010, 09:10:32 AM »
Thinking about it a bit more. Now I am reminded of two other series that I enjoy: Sakura Taisen and Sailor Moon.

The Sakura Taisen canon is really... interesting. There's the original games, of course, and there are also at least four OVAs (Gouka Kenran and the like), spin-off games, an anime, a movie, a manga series, several live-action musicals, one TWO eight-disc compilations of music from the series (something like 17 hours' worth of music, because Kouhei Tanaka is a god), and hell, even a restaurant. Each and every one of them is canon, too. And they all contradict each other in many respects (the anime compared to the games comes to mind), so you actually have to identify which canon you're using in fanworks or references.

Sailor Moon: here, the manga is the original-- and even then, it's the Sailor V manga that's the original, and the Sailor Moon manga was itself just a spinoff. Then there's the anime, which diverges pretty wildly in many respects (lol Starlights). Then we have the SeraMyu musicals, which are completely awesome and have their own separate canon and storylines. Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon, the live-action Sailor Moon, also has its own unique story. Then we have the SNES Sailor Moon RPG, and countless music CDs, OVAs, drama CDs, supplementary materials that fit in mostly with the anime and not the original manga. Like Sakura Taisen, Sailor Moon fanworks have to identify which canon they're using (example: "I'm using the anime storyline, with some elements of the manga, and Sailor Darkury from PGSM.")

I come from both of these two fandoms. Both have internally contradicting, separate sources of canon. Does anyone care? Hell no. Touhou, however, has a bare-bones canon (the games), with a few sources of supplementary material (BAiJR, Grimoire of Alice, etc), and that's it. So whenever ZUN introduces a plot element that may contradict what he said earlier (PC-98's relationship to Windows comes to mind), canonfags go batshit insane. Having only one ultimate source of canon in ZUN, canonfags have made the mistake of thinking he is sober infallible, and actually cares about making his stories internally consistent. (To his credit, ZUN has started to do that, ever since the events of MoF.) If Touhou were anything like Sailor Moon or Sakura Taisen, its fans would learn to deal with it whenever a contradicting plot element is introduced, and we'd have less canonfaggotry and fanonfaggotry on the whole.

In short, both of their fanbases are sane, unlike Touhou's. When they see inconsistent canon, they :dealwithit:.

On the other hand-- the dangers of not having a fanon are way more pronounced. The Rurouni Kenshin fandom seems to have failed specifically because of a well-detailed anime and manga (and a few OVAs, but Seisouhen does not exist), leaving very little room for reinterpretations. Fanfiction is literally the only place where Rurouni Kenshin fandom now lives-- and some scattered doujin communities, but they can be counted on fingers and toes, at best.

Or what Sabino said.



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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 09:23:33 AM »
I try to stay close to canon in my writing, but fanon as a whole doesn't bug me at all, DereAlice being one example. The only takes I dislike are 'Aya is a slut' (based on what, exactly? Wishful thinking? The casual sexism that comes up any time a female is successful and features prominently?) and 'Kaguya is a NEET'. Fanon, as I see it, fills in blanks and/or adds more. It's when fanon debases a character that I'm irked a little. Generally, tho, fanon shows fun being had. Some people need to take it easy.

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 11:37:39 AM »
You know what I think is wrong with this thread? The title and the premise. The idea that you either think dere dere Alice is awesome or think fanon in general is stupid. No in-between, no exceptions.
This, coupled with certain excerpts from your posts, make it sound like "everyone who doesn't embrace fanon is an elitist jerk who worships ZUN like a god and needs to get slapped some sense into them", even though this wasn't your intention (I presume).

And then there is the question of what exactly constitutes as "dere dere Alice".

For me, I don't think fanon is stupid by necessity. What I do think is that any deviation from canon should be reasonable: The overall enjoyability of the work needs to be improved by the changes.
I like the majority of the characters ZUN created, and I like them the way he created them. Adding a little quirk to them that is not an offshoot from canon is fine with me if it makes the story more enjoyable. However, if you want to change a character's personality drastically, you automatically create a feeling of unfamiliarity and thus dislike with the readership, so your story has to be so exceptionally good that the reader doesn't mind, and the majority of these stories doesn't succeed there. If the difference is too huge, I (and people like me) won't enjoy it no matter what, because I will just facepalm about the blatant contradiction (intentionally turning a character by 180? for mere comedic effect can be exempt from this).

This is, of course, highly subjective, but as a particularly egregious example I'd like to mention this long video where Alice keeps a terrified Marisa chained in a dungeon (sexually abusing her too, if I remember correctly) and goes around murdering everyone who is otherwise close to Marisa, going so far as delivering Reimu's head as a prove of her love. Every bit of this is played for drama.
Ignoring the rageworthyness of her dolls, in Alice's absence, being able to kill Flandre, this is just such an utter mutilation of Alice's character that I was at a loss of words when I saw it. I don't really get how anyone who likes the original source would also enjoy this... abomination...
[/rant]

Uuh, where were we? Ah, yes, dere dere Alice.
Well, applying what I said before, let's take a look. Alice is established as a nice person who still acts somewhat cold and distant towards other people. Also, she is a friend of Marisa, and her dialogue in Imperishable Night is actually quite casual in my opinion. Now, you can make them a couple, it doesn't contradict what is established. If you write it well, I won't care. Now, any extrapolation from here needs the final work to be that much more enjoyable for it for me to buy it.

And here I get back to the question of what actually dere dere Alice is. If it is not overdone, an Alice that acts more or less lovey-dovey towards Marisa can work if it is not overdone. The "I- It's not like I do it because I like you or anything"-Alice, while still technically possible, is a little more difficult. Partly because this contradicts her more casual behaviour towards Marisa, partly because it gives Alice a personal flaw (or at least inflates it), and people are usually less forgiving about changes when a character they like is put into a worse perspective as they would like to see them in.
Yandere Alice is out directly, and I would like to refer you to my little rant two paragraphs above.

The problem now is that the majority of people now take the love relationship between Marisa and Alice for granted, in one way or another, as do many fan works. Therefore, they start to extrapolate from that, making the fan works differ even more form canon, and, with greetings from Sturgeon's law being what it is, even less can keep up the quality necessary to make a fan of the canon personalities ignore the divergences. Most other people won't care. This process then continues, until you can consider yourself lucky to find something that is not, in one way or another, basing one or more characters' personalities on pure fan-wank and/or blistering with memes.

So, what's the canon-fan to do?
Adjust his own tastes? Harder than it sounds, I'd say.
The only thing most can do is accept that a majority of the fan works just won't be that enjoyable to them. I've done so, which is why I pretty much don't read fan works at all anymore.
Some people won't accept this. Thus, frustration and rage are an expectable reaction. That these people express these feelings on the internet, ditto.

This is supposed to be an explanation, not a justification. Spewing bile upon the people who have different tastes than yourself is bad, and I mean in both ways.


Damn, did I just type that much on such an unimportant topic? Bah, nobody is going to read through it, anyways...

Edit: Me fail English?! That's unpossible!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 05:24:53 PM by Iryan »
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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 12:11:52 PM »
Don't worry Iryan I read bits and parts cause im adhd of your post
I love both dere Alice and canon Alice, I think both of them are awesome but yes dere Alice can go overboard at times.


« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 12:14:03 PM by youkai_R_US »

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2010, 12:22:41 PM »
The reason I'm fond of Dere-Alice and always will be.

That said (assuming you didn't get an aneurysm from the above), I don't think it's going too far. Just how are we aware when it comes to Reimu, Marisa, Alice, et al and their everyday normal interactions with one another? With no incidents involved. Generally speaking: We're not. D'you know why I love Curiosities of Lotus Asia? Not only because they're beautifully written, for starters, but it feels so... casual and nostalgic. I almost feel like I'm right there in the shop next to Rinnosuke, watching as he, Marisa and Reimu joke around. The atmosphere in the works is very prominent.

It's that kind of thing that we can't see with anyone else: do Marisa and Alice visit one another? We don't know! We really don't. This doesn't mean that Everyone's Gay in Gensokyo by any means if they do. I find the pairing adorably cute and have no problem putting Badass Alice and Dere Alice together. Badass Alice comes in when there's an incident to be solved (as does Bitch Reimu, Vicious Yukari, Arrogant Tenshi, Mocking Suika, and several other frankly harsh personae of the cast), but when there's not an incident happening? It's up for interpretation.

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2010, 04:06:21 PM »
I said it a hundred times already, but I state it again: I go by my idea of an "Expanded Universe", where I accept fanon if it doesn't outright goes against canon. So for me it's badass canon Alice, but it doesn't mean that she can't be Dere. I mean, people are complex beings not just simple archetypes. :V

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2010, 04:55:33 PM »
Speaking from the other extreme here, I fervently believe that people can and should like what they like, canon or fanon. That unfortunately doesn't stop me from having unhappy knee-jerk reactions, however.

I don't dislike what fandom does; although I love canon, I also read and enjoy a whole lot of fanworks all over the spectrum of genres, seriousness, faithfulness and everything else. I also don't exactly hate the common fanon reinterptretations of characters and things -- although I almost always find the canon ones more interesting at the end of the day, at least with the characters major enough to have much. Fanon versions tend to be good for comedy though.

However, I'm a fan of canon, and, like any fan of anything, I want to mingle with others of my kind, so it frustrates me how easily it seems to get disregarded. It gets a bit lonely, y'know? Mindlessly following fanon is no better than mindlessly following canon, and you know there are plenty of people who do that too. And people who regurgitate ideas without thinking about them spread that attitude as well as the ideas, and misinformation gets propagated, and then the next people coming in don't have a chance. Of course one reason that this comes up is that getting to the canon takes a little more of a conscious move than with most things -- most of the main draw of Touhou is the gameplay (I originally came for that too!) which is sort of removed from most of the actual information. I still remember the first time I played one of the games without having any context or idea what to expect, I was so damn confused by the dialogue.

However, I love ZUN's manga, short stories, books etc. as much as the games, if not more. And for that matter I don't consider the games complete without what's written in their text files. So I feel a bit disenfranchised when people say "there's barely any canon anyway lol who cares". What exactly have I been reading, then?

I do dislike tsundere Alice, though, but in all honesty a lot of that is just resentment for it being so dang prevalent. Like Iryan says, it gets taken for granted; I've seen too many comments on fanworks that don't use it that're heckling in that direction or outright confused. As if not using the common fanon version is a shocking move, or worse, as if people don't know that's not all there is. I don't see the appeal in the first place of turning an interesting character into an unrelated flat stereotype, but sheesh.

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 04:58:31 PM »
Well, I don't give two cents about Alice, so it doesn't matter which version of her comes rolling along. Actually, I'm pretty open for different character intepretations, as long if it's sweet or hilarious enough. Sure, some things are a bit too much even for me (Sakuya being a perverted, oppurtunistic, awful whore who mentally tortures Remi in shino/ponjiyuusu's works comes to mind. Actually everyone except Remi, Mokou, Keine and Patchouli deserves a kick in the teeth in his intepretations), but overal it doesn't mind me that much. I don't rage that much about personalities, but I however do rage alot more about character abilities (prime example: me going ape shit on the 'Eirin's a Hourai immortal' notion in the Questions thread).

I don't know why, but everytime someone starts messing with someone's power level for no good reason I get the sudden urge to tear of the author's face and hang it over my fireplace. The character's amount of personality quirks are broad enough to allow for many character intepretations, so that allows for alot of personal intepretation and still be oddly right. Their powers and abilities however follow rules set in stone.
Sure, if it's played for comedy, it's a bit more acceptable (Reimu's face burning and Yuuka knowing photosynthesis for example), but there are people who try and make serious, sometimes even dramatic stories with characters either uber buffed into God Mode or nerfed into a super duper wimp with whipcream and a cherry on top. This also counts for their competence. Seriously, shouldn't Remilia have realised by now what for slut her head maid is and fired her in shino's works? Or, you know, torture Sakuya until she starts to bawl as much as she forced Remi to. In Touhou Tag Dream, Sanae survives being hit head on by Flandre's super move, which was designed to kill oni's and could destroy an arena which was pre tested by Kanako and Yuugi, who couldn't get a scratch on it. Sanae should've been blown to gory pieces. And DEAR SHINKI do I hate stories where everyone seems to forget they have the ability to fly or their ability to fire more bullets than the entirety of the USA army. Life of Maid bothers me too, where NO ONE is able to use their abilities except Sakuya. Yes, it's a slice of life series, but why can Sakuya keep/remember her powers and everyone else can't/doesn't? So many of their problems could've been solved if everyone just remembered what they're capable of! (for example: Can't Patchouli just create gold from lead by using her metal powers? She could've payed for that DSi herself if she just had realized she could use magic)

Maybe this is why I dislike the Watatsukis. They're just two snobs who, despite being ageless, are as fragile as humans and could be snapped in two by even the likes of Rumia in hand-to-hand combat. Yet they get the upperhand over Yukari 'Watch Me Give Your God a Wedgie' Yakumo and Suika 'Watch Me Crush a Planet in My Palm' Ibuki! I now Yorihime's just a presentation of what Reimu could be if she started training, but COME ON! Yukari could split her in half by letting a gap appear and dissappear around her middle, and Suika could just crunch her into a square cube by increasing the air density around her. And Toyohime's 'so-called' ultimate weapon: a fucking fan. Even if it could disintegrate a forest, Yukari could kill her before she knew it. She just stood there and explained what that thing does the whole time. More than enough time for Yukari to gap out her brain out of her fugly skull. This is why I have made myself believe that Silent Sinner in Blue 'never happened'.

But the most infuriating example was defiantly in a short doujin I saw on danbooru many months ago and am still trying to remove from my memory.
In this doujin, Yuuka was beating the ever loving crap out of Alice for some reason (there was no link to previous parts), throwing her around like a rag doll and even going as far as to pin Alice to the ground and start gutting her with her parasol. And who was looking on on this horrific scene in total shock and fear? Unable to do anything about this horrible display and save Alice?

Shinki. With the entire GODDAMN cast of Mystic Square.

Shinki and her servants just stood there. Just standing there watching her own daughter and their sister dying, quivering in fear for a fucking walking sunflower of all things. And once Yuuka got her attention on the Makai crew, she prepared a Master Spark and aimed it at the Makai Crew, with the barely alive Alice still underneath her. What does Shinki do? Charge with the powers of Hell and turn that grass bitch inside out? Teleport away with her crew and attack from behind? Make Yuuka's head explode with a mere thought? Or just dodge out of the way for the incoming attack? No... (warning: Looooots of vulgarity coming up. Spoilered to not offend too many people. You've been warned.)
Spoiler:
SHE JUST FUCKING KEEPS STANDING THERE AND COVER HER SERVANTS WITH HER ARMS, IN A PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO DEFEND THEM FROM THE BLAST LIKE SOME MOTHERFUCKING HELPLESS DAMSEL IN DISTRESS!!!!!

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!


And who comes in to save the day? Who bounces off the continent destroying Master Spark like she's goddamn Superman?
Marisa. Motherfucking Marisa. The mortal, human, mediocre witch Marisa. That fucking Marisa.
How the FUCK can a witch defend a Goddess from a nuke-like attack? WHY the FUCK does a witch NEED to defend a Goddess from a nuke like attack?! Shinki has created an entire fucking dimension with her own freaking hands. Not even YUKARI or SHIKIEIKI can boast about something like that! Yuuka may be insanely powerful, but how in the Nine Circles of Hell can she ever hope to stand a chance against GOD?! IT. DOESN'T. MAKE. SENSE. Shinki's omnipotent. She could have just made Yuuka explode in a fountain of gore without even moving a finger! She could've painfully transformed Yuuka into Alice and then transfer Alice's soul to the new Alice body and erase Yuuka's soul! She has INFINITE ways of punishing Yuuka and saving Alice, and yet she has to be saved by that obnoxious, retardedly smiling parlor magician. WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE AUTHOR THINKING?!

*gasp**wheeze*

Well, that's my thought on fanon's ways of messing with characters' powers. Good day everybody.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 07:52:02 PM by OkashiiKisei »

Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2010, 05:20:34 PM »
Quote
Life of Maid bothers me too, where NO ONE is able to use their abilities except Sakuya

excuse me sir?

anyways, this thread is lol.
"My fanon goes against canon? Let's fight these canonfags and/or pretend canon doesn't exist!"
"My playing preferences differ from those damned score-running shmup elitists? They don't deserve to play Touhou!"

tl;dr: I can live with fanon. I have the option to ignore the fanworks that I don't like, as much as I must accept those works that I happen to like, as being fanworks, nothing more. What I can't stand, is people trying to force fanon over canon. (as for the Dere Alice example, I ignore it. Unlike the Lunarian/maniac Sakuya one, which sounds more like people trying to tell a lie thousand times with conviction until other people believe them)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Toasty

Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2010, 05:25:10 PM »
Oh hey, a rant thread. I love to rant. Sure, chances are i'm wrong, but let's give it a go.


I think dere alice to be cheesey and tsundere alice to be a stupid overdone character trait splattered all over a mostly blank, but well painted fence, so to speak, in such a way that it is flat, with no personality where there should be some. The 'flat' statement applies to dere alice as well, until I read a decent doujin that proves things to be otherwise.

Canon Alice seems to be far more interesting and a tad difficult to decifer and understand in comparison with the various Alici (plural?) of fanon (which boil down, quite easily, to "oh marisa, I made you a doll!" and "Pff, not like I made this for you or anything"). I'd prefer the serious, cold, calculating dollmaker any day, canon or not. I'd also like to see the other sides of alice in canon, as she has to show some emotion. And chances are, they've been shown, I just need to read the ZUN doujins.

Overall (condensing two paragraphs into one!? That can't be neccesary.): The fanon personalities assigned to Alice are like paintings done by robots who can't use shading or comprehend originality. They're flat, lack depth (different things), and are just traits seen in other things (like K-On and lucky star characters) splattered onto an Alice shaped canvas. Of course, that's not neccesarily a bad thing. Moe can be good once in a while, but it still doesn't make a good, serious, character.

And a side note on ronery Alice:

She's mildly interesting, and great for short depressing doujins. Sure, she posesses some traits of canon alice, but too much ronery, not enough alice = flat.

Overall overall: For the sake of Kanako, I know fanon's character variations are moe and depressing and bla bla bla, but they're just that. MOE. Unless there's a childhoog trauma explaining tsundere or some thing with alice's fatehr dying and her accepting a positive outlook to cope, resulting in deredere, FANON ALICE IS FLATTER THAN A CHEAP PAINTING. (aforementioned exception clarified: Unless a really good doujin adds some depth. Regardless, that's about as much as Though the wind cries. Fanon really doesn't accept what those doujins add into the collective character profiles.)

PS: MOTHERFUCKING MARISA should be a meme.
PPS: Alice is shinki's daughter as much as the scientist is the father of a mouse created via artificial insemination. Alice, to be shinki's daughter in the literal and direct sense, would need need to have her as direct parentage, more than a creator.
PPPS: This is all the opinion of someone who has not read the official doujins due to general laziness in the field of reading manga and watching anime. I'm a poor excuse for an otaku, if you could even call me that.
PPPPS: I have a bad habit of ranting even more when I want to clarify.  I guess i've just seen too much of the sky to simply say it's blue. Can you say countless reiterations?
PPPPPS: You are now wondering why you are reading the ever self-derailing postscript.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 05:26:54 PM by Toast »

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2010, 05:32:46 PM »

PPS: Alice is shinki's daughter as much as the scientist is the father of a mouse created via artificial insemination. Alice, to be shinki's daughter in the literal and direct sense, would need need to have her as direct parentage, more than a creator.

Well, I originally shared that opinion, but recently I figured that 'since humanity is seen as God's children, wouldn't that mean all of Makaihood is seen as Shinki's Children?' So technically Alice is Shinki's daughter, and all the Makai demons are her sisters.

Toasty

Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2010, 05:40:58 PM »
Well, I originally shared that opinion, but recently I figured that 'since humanity is seen as God's children, wouldn't that mean all of Makaihood is seen as Shinki's Children?' So technically Alice is Shinki's daughter, and all the Makai demons are her sisters.

Metaphysically.
Spoiler:
The same as you could consider all the angels children of Adam in evangellion.
(
Spoiler:
Except for lilith
) It's actually nearly the same situation - it's not confirmed whether we're dealing with direct descendants or spiritual successors and metaphysical hierarchies, but logically, if genetics mean anything with traits of godhood, including floating wings and white-blue hair, alice is either a daughter in the created by sense, or takes after her father a little too much.

Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2010, 05:55:15 PM »
PPS: Alice is shinki's daughter as much as the scientist is the father of a mouse created via artificial insemination. Alice, to be shinki's daughter in the literal and direct sense, would need need to have her as direct parentage, more than a creator.

there's also the possibility that Alice isn't from Makai (Shinki says she has created Makai and everything in it). If it's mentioned somewhere that she is indeed from Makai, then I'll stand corrected
however, if Alice has been adopted by Shinki.. :p
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Tengukami

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2010, 05:57:20 PM »
Shinki could also be lying about having created Makai, taking the credit for someone else's work.

Just throwin' that out there.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2010, 06:07:05 PM »
Personally, I don't like theories like "This character was lying!" when we have a complete absence of other information (since this raises the question of "Okay, who did create it, then?").

Of course, I'm also in the "this thread is stupid" camp, so I'm just gonna throw this out there.

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2010, 06:25:18 PM »
Quote
What I can't stand, is people trying to force fanon over canon.

So glad I read this thread first, this sums up my feelings perfectly.

There's a point where fanon becomes so prevalent that it becomes the basis that all fanworks are based off of, instead of canon. To me, that's almost insulting the source, especially when the fanon basically falls into "lets make this character an exact moe moe replica of my ideal fetish fantasy" or something similar. And don't get me started on the stupid jokes. Also, let me say this: I NEVER LIKED MARISA STOLE THE PRECIOUS THING!!! I've hated the song since I first heard it, it's what introduced me to Touhou. But my god it's so poor musically that it makes me rage how popular it is, and I hold it at least partly responsible for the subject of this thread. Needless to say that's not helping the cause at all.

Like Okashii, I'll use another example: Ran and Chen. To me, those two have been absolutely butchered by fanon; Chen is a fucking useless crybaby, with or without Ran, and Ran herself has turned from proud, strong mentor to overly-affectionate motherly figure that has a nosebleed anytime she so much as glances in the general direction of her shikigami. Remember the "Chen's Day Out" video that was posted in CPMC a couple months ago? Cirno was the only think keeping me from outright raging.



Seriously, I have no qualms when fanon is fanon. But when its influence expands beyond the creator's boundaries it really gets old fast.

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Sabino

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2010, 06:37:55 PM »
HAHAHA, THIS IS BECOMING SUCH A CHAOTIC THREAD...

I say, calm down people.
As long as it's not anything official, there's no reason you sould blindly accept a fanon opposing your beliefs and the opposite is also true.
Hey, I believe that Kanako is strong and protective parent like figure and Yuugi is manly and masculine but very feminine at the core. There's no official statement to oppose my beliefs, thus ... need I state? :)

Spidere

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2010, 06:44:43 PM »
I like fanon. Just not DereAlice.


That's my opinion.
But the most infuriating example was defiantly in a short doujin I saw on danbooru many months ago and am still trying to remove from my memory.
In this doujin, Yuuka was beating the ever loving crap out of Alice for some reason (there was no link to previous parts), throwing her around like a rag doll and even going as far as to pin Alice to the ground and start gutting her with her parasol. And who was looking on on this horrific scene in total shock and fear? Unable to do anything about this horrible display and save Alice?

Shinki. With the entire GODDAMN cast of Mystic Square.

Shinki and her servants just stood there. Just standing there watching her own daughter and their sister dying, quivering in fear for a fucking walking sunflower of all things. And once Yuuka got her attention on the Makai crew, she prepared a Master Spark and aimed it at the Makai Crew, with the barely alive Alice still underneath her. What does Shinki do? Charge with the powers of Hell and turn that grass bitch inside out? Teleport away with her crew and attack from behind? Make Yuuka's head explode with a mere thought? Or just dodge out of the way for the incoming attack? No... (warning: Looooots of vulgarity coming up. Spoilered to not offend too many people. You've been warned.)
Spoiler:
SHE JUST FUCKING KEEPS STANDING THERE AND COVER HER SERVANTS WITH HER ARMS, IN A PATHETIC ATTEMPT TO DEFEND THEM FROM THE BLAST LIKE SOME MOTHERFUCKING HELPLESS DAMSEL IN DISTRESS!!!!!

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!


And who comes in to save the day? Who bounces off the continent destroying Master Spark like she's goddamn Superman?
Marisa. Motherfucking Marisa. The mortal, human, mediocre witch Marisa. That fucking Marisa.
How the FUCK can a witch defend a Goddess from a nuke-like attack? WHY the FUCK does a witch NEED to defend a Goddess from a nuke like attack?! Shinki has created an entire fucking dimension with her own freaking hands. Not even YUKARI or SHIKIEIKI can boast about something like that! Yuuka may be insanely powerful, but how in the Nine Circles of Hell can she ever hope to stand a chance against GOD?! IT. DOESN'T. MAKE. SENSE. Shinki's omnipotent. She could have just made Yuuka explode in a fountain of gore without even moving finger! She could've painfully transformed Yuuka into Alice and then transfer Alice's soul to the new Alice body and erase Yuuka's soul! She has INFINITE ways of punishing Yuuka and saving Alice, and yet she has to be saved by that obnoxious, retardedly smiling parlor magician. WHAT THE FUCK WAS THE AUTHOR THINKING?!

*gasp**wheeze*

Well, that's my thought on fanon's ways of messing with characters' powers. Good day everybody.

I agree with you Okashii. Sure, Yuuka's tough, but not superultraomegasupersaiyan. That pissed me right the fuck off seeing that.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 06:51:53 PM by Thundr »

OkashiiKisei

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2010, 07:12:26 PM »

Like Okashii, I'll use another example: Ran and Chen. To me, those two have been absolutely butchered by fanon; Chen is a fucking useless crybaby, with or without Ran, and Ran herself has turned from proud, strong mentor to overly-affectionate motherly figure that has a nosebleed anytime she so much as glances in the general direction of her shikigami. Remember the "Chen's Day Out" video that was posted in CPMC a couple months ago? Cirno was the only think keeping me from outright raging.


Ah yes, thank you Marislayer for providing another thing about fanon that irks me and fits with my raging about character power in my previous post.
Chen may be childish, but she's still a youkai. An insanely fast, extremely efficient, flesh eating, killing machine that stands far superior than your average human. Those three inch blood red claws aren't there for show, and I doubt that red is nail polish. Cat's are competent killers and great tacticians, even without magic. Chen isn't helpless with or without Ran. She's cute and friendly, but if you scare her she won't start crying like a little child. She'd do what a normal cat would do when threatened: scratch your face off. I like innocent, childish Chen, but I don't want to see her depicted as always weeping in a corner. She's a far more efficient fighrer than she let's on.
Also, what is Chen's age, appearance wise? About ten to twelve or something like that, right? Twelve year olds don't cry that fast. The frequency Chen cries in fanon is more fitting for a six year old. You gotta do something grave to get her to cry, not just pop up with a creepy mask...

And while Chen still has some roots to her original depiction, Ran has been utterly butchered. She was explicitly stated to be one of the strongst of Gensokyo. Mythologically, Kyubi are some of the mightiest mythical beings in existance, defiantly near the top of the youkai power hierarchy, next to oni's. There's a reason Ninetails was a such a dangerous and mighty adversary in Okami and acted like a God and was the most epic boss in the game. Kyubi. Are. Dangerous. Yet Ran is always, always, always depicted as on the lower scale of Gensokyo's hierarchy. Fanon completely ignores the facts that Ran is an Extra Boss, is the right hand woman of a nigh divine being, is stated to be one of the strongest of Gensokyo, is one of the most dangerous species in Eastern mytholgy and is the one watching over Gensokyo whenever Yukari's sleeping. Ran could wipe the floor with the Scarlets!
Yet how is she depicted? As a mediocre powered, perverted, streaking, almost insultingly stereotypical mother figure who does nothing more than clean the house. Okay, I can live with the motherly tendencies, the nose bleeds are sligtly acceptable but what in the Nine Circles of Hell, Niflheim, Jigoku and Thanatos is up with the streaking and low power?! She got her ass kicked in the first round of Touhou Tag Dream (with Yuugi having barely a scratch on her.....well except for that cat scratch on her hand, given to her by Chen), throwing her and Chen out of the tournament in the first round. Though she later did challenge Yuuka outside of tournament and held her own quite well, the conclusion was never revealed because Yukari butted in and gapped Yuuka away. Chen, meanwhile, was fighting Cirno, and Cirno was beating Chen. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS! Even for the comic's standards!

Those two deserve waaaaay more respect. Ran would probably have been seen as the mightiest of Gensokyo if it weren't for the fact that Yukari and her unique Phantasm overshadowed her, making Ran look less impressive.... Poor Ran ;_;
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 07:36:29 PM by OkashiiKisei »

ebarrett

Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2010, 07:14:22 PM »
anyone else in the I think Fanon is stupid camp has no business playing Touhou or liking for that matter.

lol fanon.
pathetic as usual.

feel free to stopping me from enjoying my Touhou, by the way. no idea how you could do that but judging by your tone I'm assuming you might have superpowers or something, right? because you're obviously superior to people who think fanon is stupid. heck, as far as "story" goes, the games themselves are pretty stupid too when you think about it.

go read a decent book or something for a change, instead of being a hopeless otaku.

Tengukami

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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2010, 07:25:16 PM »
Personally, I don't like theories like "This character was lying!" when we have a complete absence of other information (since this raises the question of "Okay, who did create it, then?").

Yeah, I was being tongue-in-cheek. I know next to nothing about Shinki.

Of course, I'm also in the "this thread is stupid" camp, so I'm just gonna throw this out there.

OH SNAP. Guess we got told!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 07:28:48 PM by Tengu-天照-kami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2010, 07:42:29 PM »
I was thinking of reading this entire thread, but I'll think I'll just say "Touhou sucks" and save myself the trouble.


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Re: Here be Dere Dere Alice camp vs Fanon is stupid camp thread
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2010, 08:02:09 PM »
There's no need to lead off with something so inflammatory as telling everyone that prefers canon that they're enjoying Touhou wrong.

If people want to have a calm, serious discussion about canon Alice vs. fanon Alice, someone can remake this thread. If you just wish to rant about canon elitists, we have a Rant thread in whatever forum Everything Else used to be.
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