Author Topic: Touhou TAS identification experiement  (Read 21551 times)

SuccinctAndPunchy

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2012, 10:07:47 PM »
You misunderstand. I didn't make the Vsync patch; I packaged it up, added english instructions and I manage the download mirror. I say it isn't the purpose of the Vsync patch because literally, it is not the purpose of the program. The reason why it wouldn't go under 60fps is because naturally, Touhou plays at 60fps and is drawn on a 60Hz monitor. The patch takes over drawing and can adjust to help vsync issues as well as input lag. It can also adjust the FPS to match the monitor's refresh rate and a bunch of other tiddly possibly useful things. It was never meant to be used to speed up or slow down the game, it was meant to make the game play as normal as possible. Altering the FPS is just a side-effect that users can take advantage of.

I misunderstand entirely, cheers for at least telling me why I was misinformed, even if a great deal of the technical stuff flew straight over my head.  :3

Ranko Hoshino

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2012, 01:45:01 AM »
Speaking of TAS for score, I would like to see how TAS could be used to get super high scores in replays.

Stuff like this is pretty neat to see. :3

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=16843
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Arcorann

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2012, 12:09:52 PM »
Speaking of TAS for score, I would like to see how TAS could be used to get super high scores in replays.

Stuff like this is pretty neat to see. :3

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=16843

This really has to be mentioned somewhere...

TAS by kopiapoa of Embodiment of Scarlet Devil Extra, scoring 846,061,440 using ReimuA.

44554 rerecords using Hourglass. Replay file and HD version on YouTube are available. Total graze is apparently 66963, reaching the cap of 9999 during Silent Selene...

From the scoring discussion thread. A check of kopiapoa's twitter suggests that he is now working on a run that will surpass 900 million.

Karisa

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2012, 01:25:47 AM »
I wonder what happens if you reach 1 billion in EoSD (which should at least be possible with TAS on Lunatic, if not Extra as well)? I have a feeling the condensed score in PCB was added in that game...

Drake

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2012, 01:54:26 AM »
EoSD counterstops at 999999990, but both it and the high score are signed 4-byte integers. The high score doesn't "counterstop" if you forcibly change it, and goes up to 2147483647 before overflowing.


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Esper

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2012, 12:23:44 AM »
EoSD counterstops at 999999990, but both it and the high score are signed 4-byte integers. The high score doesn't "counterstop" if you forcibly change it, and goes up to 2147483647 before overflowing.



And yet it still isn't as satisfying as having the high score A2,376,570.
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2012, 03:05:05 PM »
How to detect save states? :3
Also sprite editing and marking stuff directly on the monitor are some neat cheating techniques.

Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2012, 03:56:15 PM »
Can we not discuss different undetectable methods of cheating? That's the last thing that needs to be propagated.

Final summary: despite how simple it can be to make a TAS that doesn't look like a TAS, it can be called out if enough people look at it.  Likewise, a legit run can also be wrongly called out as a TAS, although the majority seems to be right in most cases.  The majority successfully pegged every TAS, but got one legitimate run wrong.  This also shows there are multiple TAS giveaways-precision movement, insane reflexes, even staying under the boss perfectly can be one.

Please reread? If you want to carry out a TAS experiment that might actually mean something, find a good player (like, a good good player) and do full runs rather than spell card practice.

I have no name

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2012, 04:08:41 PM »
find a good player (like, a good good player)
done.   ^

If you want to carry out a TAS experiment that might actually mean something
It was an idle curiousity, and though the results aren't as good as if full runs were used, or a better player played, I still feel that a TAS will be called out in most cases.

Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2012, 08:24:33 PM »
Other cheating methods besides slowdown could be included if you ever do these experiments again. Testing sheds more light to the issue than guessing.



I'm wondering how many world record scores are done by cheating.
Sometimes when looking at a WR replay and seeing a death i think to myself that that person "died" intentionally to alleviate suspicion of people who later watch the replay.
I've seen EoSD and MoF WR replays where people know too well where the item auto collect height is. Perhaps the borders around the game have some natural marks that can be used as PoC?

It seems that new WR replays on japanese board(http://score.royalflare.net/) are checked by people before they become visible. Maybe they get or have gotten spammed with fake replays or cheaty replays?



Question for people who have been around longer than me:
Have there been any WR cheaters caught?

Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2012, 09:05:54 PM »
I'm wondering how many world record scores are done by cheating.

I gather the reason people play touhou competitively is for personal gratification or adrenaline rush when you are doing unexpectedly well, not so much for gaining internet recognition, I don't believe that a touhou player would ever cheat to get a WR.

But then, where goes the border for cheating? Sprite modifying, vsync patch, monitor marking, or even using the pause function?
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Karisa

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2012, 09:22:07 PM »
I've seen EoSD and MoF WR replays where people know too well where the item auto collect height is. Perhaps the borders around the game have some natural marks that can be used as PoC?
The item collection height in MoF seems to be memorizable. I've done that sort of manual collection at maximum value various times... not too consistently, but I believe I could with more practice (and the world record players obviously have had a lot more practice than I have).

Drake

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2012, 10:52:56 PM »
You guys are being completely ridiculous. We have players in these very forums that can dance with the best and you still have the gall to doubt players who've been famously playing the games and have been scoring in them for literally years. Saying things like "sometimes when looking at a WR replay and seeing a death i think to myself that that person died intentionally to alleviate suspicion of people who later watch the replay", gives me a really sour face. Labeling different "methods" or whatever with "oh no what's the imaginary boundary for cheating" completely undermines the central points of how and why people cheat and how and why people can detect cheating. At a WR-level, even? You would need a level of proficiency so unbelievably high that it would be ridiculous for you to even consider cheating in the first place, because you are that good. It should be clear that in order to be able to sneak a cheated replay past people, you're generally going to have to be better than you would just doing it naturally. These sorts of comments, and almost the entire proposition of this thread, tosses away everything that's actually important about cheating issues and instead focuses on the literal. That's not how this works, guys. Bah.

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2012, 11:26:41 PM »
I see that this experiement is going wanderfolly.
eb: there should be a shmup that is sort of like podd minus the versus shit
eb: you go dodging semirandom things then it goes WARNING GET OUT OF THE WAY MOTHERFUCKER and you get a shitstorm
KB: and there is no way out of the way
eb: the way is through

Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2012, 10:44:45 AM »
Labeling different "methods" or whatever with "oh no what's the imaginary boundary for cheating" completely undermines the central points of how and why people cheat and how and why people can detect cheating. At a WR-level, even? You would need a level of proficiency so unbelievably high that it would be ridiculous for you to even consider cheating in the first place, because you are that good. It should be clear that in order to be able to sneak a cheated replay past people, you're generally going to have to be better than you would just doing it naturally. These sorts of comments, and almost the entire proposition of this thread, tosses away everything that's actually important about cheating issues and instead focuses on the literal. That's not how this works, guys. Bah.

Welp, I just find it a mildly interesting subject, I didn't mean to bother anyone with my thoughtless squabble.
"you never know, you may have the best strats in the world" - Zil

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Polttopallo

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2012, 11:14:12 AM »
Other cheating methods besides slowdown could be included if you ever do these experiments again. Testing sheds more light to the issue than guessing.



I'm wondering how many world record scores are done by cheating.
Sometimes when looking at a WR replay and seeing a death i think to myself that that person "died" intentionally to alleviate suspicion of people who later watch the replay.
I've seen EoSD and MoF WR replays where people know too well where the item auto collect height is. Perhaps the borders around the game have some natural marks that can be used as PoC?

It seems that new WR replays on japanese board(http://score.royalflare.net/) are checked by people before they become visible. Maybe they get or have gotten spammed with fake replays or cheaty replays?



Question for people who have been around longer than me:
Have there been any WR cheaters caught?

You can use MoF hint system and make the item auto collection height visible all the time.

like this:

Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2012, 06:33:00 PM »
I have heard about the hint system before, but disregarded its existence and potential uses until now. This means screen marking using hints is not considered cheating for MoF. Just like marisaB.
After playing around with it a little:


http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8237.msg598670.html#msg598670
I'll use this when scoring in MoF :V



I think that there are people who would cheat to get a world record score, just like there are cheating people in any competition.

Out of all the cheating methods save states may be the most efficient one because it generates replays that seem like real and is difficult to detect. Other methods should not be used with it in order not to cause unnecessary suspicion. Has anyone made a save state system for touhou?

For my own bullethell games i have enabled replay editing. Basically you can fast forward watch the replay to the place where you'd like to change it. Maybe something like this can also be made for touhou as an alternative to save states.

If i remember correctly sprite editing tools are available somewhere on these forums.

I have no name

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2012, 07:04:03 PM »
*facepalm*
This was not meant as a thread about "how to cheat in Touhou undetectably".
I've created another monster (the other being the DS speedrunning)  :colonveeplusalpha:

SuccinctAndPunchy

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2012, 09:34:18 PM »


Out of all the cheating methods save states may be the most efficient one because it generates replays that seem like real and is difficult to detect. Other methods should not be used with it in order not to cause unnecessary suspicion. Has anyone made a save state system for touhou?



Most efficient, yes. Probably the least feasible since Hourglass (which as far as to my knowledge is the only program capable of doing such a function) leaves an very noticeable mark on the date of the replay.

Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 10:25:10 AM »
Currently i'm interested in finding out exactly how difficult it is to detect a cheaty replay. So far only slowdown method has been tested.


I tried out savestates with hourglass - Replay

Everything in the replay file can be modified. Replay file contains stuff like FPS, slowdown, date, user name, movement, character, replay type, shot on/off, bomb, dialogue advance, game version etc. Looks like EoSD replays are encoded, because i can't find the date or user name in the replay file using a text editor. A touhou replay encoder and decoder would be handy. Maybe someone knows where to get one?


Sprite modification could be tested using Touhou Toolkit. I haven't tried it out.

SuccinctAndPunchy

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2012, 10:41:06 AM »
Everything in the replay file can be modified. Replay file contains stuff like FPS, slowdown, date, user name, movement, character, replay type, shot on/off, bomb, dialogue advance, game version etc. Looks like EoSD replays are encoded, because i can't find the date or user name in the replay file using a text editor. A touhou replay encoder and decoder would be handy. Maybe someone knows where to get one?

Sprite modification could be tested using Touhou Toolkit. I haven't tried it out.

Mmm... so you can edit the replay's date. Thing's just got more complicated.

Karisa

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2012, 11:40:20 AM »
Everything in the replay file can be modified. Replay file contains stuff like FPS, slowdown, date, user name, movement, character, replay type, shot on/off, bomb, dialogue advance, game version etc.
If you mean the plain-text data at the end of the file, editing this doesn't affect the in-game appearance of the replay. I think it might have been added so the score/etc. could be more easily detected (say, by replay uploader sites) without having to decode the actual format or load it in the game itself. (I can tell that replays.gensokyo.org uses it, at least: this apparently nonsensical replay is just the 1.3 billion MoF Easy run I uploaded earlier.)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 11:49:56 PM by Karisa »

Esper

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2012, 07:33:35 PM »
*facepalm*
This was not meant as a thread about "how to cheat in Touhou undetectably".
I've created another monster (the other being the DS speedrunning)  :colonveeplusalpha:

Rawr?

Well at least you didn't offend ZUN in all of that and we discussed stupid things. That's something to consider good, right? :V
My profile picture is whimsy until I feel like adding something else.

Enjoy.

Drake

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2012, 01:10:01 AM »
Currently i'm interested in finding out exactly how difficult it is to detect a cheaty replay.
There is no objective difficulty ranking in detecting cheated replays, it's something you tell by experience. It doesn't actually matter "how difficult" it is anyways.

I tried out savestates with hourglass - Replay
Nothing you did was out of the ordinary at all. Given people already know how good you are, showing up with a score like that isn't surprising. I figure you could probably do that run without savestates. You know you cheated so you'd be killing any actual sense of accomplishment, even if you won a Touhou Tournament week from it or something. And that's the thing with this sort of cheating: as you get better as a player you're going to want to get even better and accomplish things on your own terms, so naturally the better you get the less attracted you'll be to the idea of cheating. We know you're good, and we know you got there by not cheating. If you get a name for yourself for being good at something (which is what a cheater would do), then naturally people are going to want to see more from you, so that would trap a chronic cheater anyways. Ergo, the more you play, the less likely anyone else will think you're cheating. Even if someone who is normally awesome did cheat, they're only hurting themselves. Shmups aren't games where people are awarded money or anything by winning, and the only trophy you'd get for winning a competition is recognition, which you could probably get on your own merit anyways.

Everything in the replay file can be modified. Replay file contains stuff like FPS, slowdown, date, user name, movement, character, replay type, shot on/off, bomb, dialogue advance, game version etc. Looks like EoSD replays are encoded, because i can't find the date or user name in the replay file using a text editor. A touhou replay encoder and decoder would be handy. Maybe someone knows where to get one?
Please stop suggesting methods to encourage cheating that can be passed off as legitimate, in any case. That is the exact opposite of what everyone wants.

Sprite modification could be tested using Touhou Toolkit. I haven't tried it out.
Sprite modification in a form significant enough to call cheating is going to be fairly obvious in how they dodge things. Especially if we're talking about things like "replace bullet graphics with an approximation of their actual hitboxes".


read again please people
The whole point of using tools would be to do something well beyond your capability to brag to other people about (well, this is the only tool use worth calling out). These kinds of things would be considered more personal accomplishments, in which case you're only cheating yourself out of the satisfaction of doing them. Hiding tool use only really becomes an issue if the person was doing something that mattered to the majority of the community; eg. competing in high score threads or anything that involves direct competition with another person. If you're not competing with somebody else then it really doesn't matter if the replay was tool assisted or not. Play the games however you want.

In addition, tool assisted replays are usually on really difficult things that also span a long amount of time (eg. high score runs) so there are more places for the player to screw up hiding their tools (or demonstrate that those two or three amazing dodges were flukes). So for replays of such minimal length, it really doesn't matter if they're using tools or not since the accomplishment probably doesn't matter to many people and it's something you could probably fluke through if it's beyond your ability anyway (DS 9-7).

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Re: Touhou TAS identification experiement
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2012, 01:33:56 AM »
I asked nicely.