Power of the ladies: How do they work?

[commandercool]

well miracles and fate actually affect reality and don't really have the capacity to be contested so

Certainly arguable a bunch of ways, but in my book global (or at least, Gensokyo-wide) area of effect and seemingly very few drawbacks make up for the techically much more directly powerful effects a lot of other abilities have. Although I suppose Keine's ability could become easier to recognize and work around if you're aware that she can and might use it. And it seems to be far from airtight given that Keine seems to think it's necessary to physically chase the Imperishable Night protagonists away from the human village even with her ability supposedly hiding it (although that might be a result of a rush job).

Unrelated to powers discussion, but Keine's therianthropy is implied by Perfect Memento in Strict Sense to be acquired (i.e. cursed, enchanted, having a magic spell cast on them), not hereditary. Hereditary therianthropes assume a full animal form while acquired therianthropes still have a human shape. Article from PMiSS.

Very interesting. I need to re-read PMiSS. I remember almost none of it. I'm sure I looked over that article at some point but I don't remember any of it.

[Validon98]

* Drake flips buses

Thanks for clearing up the stuff with Yuugi. A misconception that was a result of the translation, huh? The truth seems a little more interesting than the misconception anyways (I've never heard of that connection to Confucius, and I didn't read the wiki article on her, so... yeah ^^;).

It's a metaphor for people writing down history and other people later learning that history by reading it. While people don't literally read it, I would think the effects are permanent in the sense that the affected party learns of the history and behaves as if it's true, until conflicting information might reveal contradictions and reveal the "truth". You know, like how history works.

That's how I figured Keine's ability worked. Taking the Human Village in IN as an example, everyone wasn't fooled by Keine's protection of the village in terms of not knowing the village was there. If they hadn't known the village was there, then Keine's temporary altered history would take place in their minds and not the "truth" of how there was a Human Village there. Of course, I don't really know how that would help in the case of youkai that already know the village is there. ^^;

[Sagus]

Hm, seems I wasn't that off the mark with Keine... on her human form, at least.

If I'm not mistaken, it was said somewhere that she had to wait until she was in her hakutaku form to "restore" the village, so that'd be another indication of her abilities being permanent; her human form "erased" that part of history, and her hakutaku form had to "re-write" it.

Keine: Most powerful ability in Touhou?

Eh, not really. Again, Yukari could see the village and the villagers normally, so it clearly doesn't affect some people (dunno if Yukari would be affected by Keine's hakutaku powers, though), and it can't really affect the real world in the "reality warping" sense.

It is one of the most interesting abilities in the series, though, IMHO.

[Imosa]

I also remember it being stated that Keine's abilities do not effect the Hieda Family's Gensokyo Chronicles. It says so in the wiki but I'm not sure what the source is.

[Drake]

If I'm not mistaken, it was said somewhere that she had to wait until she was in her hakutaku form to "restore" the village, so that'd be another indication of her abilities being permanent; her human form "erased" that part of history, and her hakutaku form had to "re-write" it.

Did you miss the part where I said that her human form devours history and her hakutaku form creates history and this is exactly what happened with IN

EDIT: i missed the permanence part my bad

[Sagus]

Did you miss the part where I said that her human form devours history and her hakutaku form creates history and this is exactly what happened with IN

Er, no I didn't? What I said is perfectly in line with that.

EDIT: Ah, I apologize. Although I didn't miss it, I forgot about it by the time I wrote that (which amounts to the same thing, I suppose). Sorry again.

[ToyoRai]

I don't understand. You wanted to know what Komachi's powers were like and I give an explanation of what I think her powers are like.

Well, you gave them in a way my brains cannot procress all the stuff you wrote down. Its hard to talka bout science that way, not because they cannot fit explaining sutff, but because most people don't have the proper knowledge to understand all the stuff.

I also remember it being stated that Keine's abilities do not effect the Hieda Family's Gensokyo Chronicles. It says so in the wiki but I'm not sure what the source is.

Hmm, interesting. I am guessing Keine's powers are absolute UNLESS there is something overruling it. Yukari would manipulate border of truth and lies to see pass Keine's ability and it would be possible that Gensokyo Chronicles has Akyuu's ability to remember everything she hears in written form.

[Drake]

I also said that it's likely her powers work as history does. You'd believe it until there were conflicting accounts or evidence of falsehood. Her power doesn't affect reality, it just fills in people's knowledge of what has previously happened. It isn't absolute at all.

(In any case, manipulating a border of truth and lies doesn't make sense.)

[ToyoRai]

Of course, how many people in Gensokyo can really prove her wrong? I doubt many people outside of Human Village really keep track of any sort of history. As such, if she changes something about history, there are few people who can really object her. Maybe I shouldn't had used "absolute" word, but I didn't think of any other word to use.

[Starxsword]

Sounds about right. And that power in the hands of one person, with unlimited revision credits, seems to beat the pants off of silly ol' miracles or fate any day of the week.

We aren't aware of any other Hakutaku in Gensokyo as far as I know, but somebody had to provide that half of Keine's genes at some point. It's possible her power isn't actually that exclusive after all. That's scary.

Maybe there is some confusion at what this means. Keine's ability doesn't actually affect reality. It affects the perception of reality. This is why Reimu is not able to see the human village, because the human village's history was "eaten".
Being able to revise history indefinitely has little meaning if the target knows the truth of the matter. The revisions do not affect reality, what it affects is the perception of reality.
That said, there are several characters that are simply immune to her ability, possibly because of how it works. One of them being Yukari and another being Akyuu.
What I mean is since Akyuu was there and knew the truth, so Keine cannot affect her, because all Keine does is alter history, not truth. Same deal with Yukari and any youkai that lived at the place and time in which Keine is trying to revise the history of.

Certainly arguable a bunch of ways, but in my book global (or at least, Gensokyo-wide) area of effect and seemingly very few drawbacks make up for the techically much more directly powerful effects a lot of other abilities have.

You can't really compare the two, one affects how people perceive history. While fate and miracles have a direct impact on reality.

Of course, how many people in Gensokyo can really prove her wrong? I doubt many people outside of Human Village really keep track of any sort of history. As such, if she changes something about history, there are few people who can really object her.

Sure, no one can object to her. But it is still that, history. If someone were to read the Chronicles of Gensokyo after Keine alters history, her history will get overwritten by Akyuu's history, because that is the last thing they read. And if you want to provide proof to object to her, you could ask for reference and refer to the same Chronicles or some other history book.

It is like having 2 people write different books. Keine writes that Youkai won the war. Akyuu writes that Youkai lost the war. If you read Keine's book, you might believe in Keine's history. If you read Akyuu's book, you might believe in Akyuu's history. Neither of this may be true, it could be possible that the true history was that it was a draw. But that doesn't matter, because as the reader, you do not get this information. All you have to decide upon is which history to read and therefore believe.

@Yuugi's ability: I just take it as she doesn't really have an ability. Since that ability has no real meaning.

@Komachi's distance manipulation: You sort of see it in the fighting games where she swaps you and herself.

[ToyoRai]

Spectulation: I like to imagine that the way Wriggle uses her ability to control insect is by communitating with them by using different body language like using her antennae.
Another thing I like to imagine is that if Medicine actually stores different types of poisons inside her body and then lets them go from hatches, holes ect.

Question: You people think that wind control and water control are common powers with tengus and kappas? SUre, Hatate doesn't seem to have taht power, but it would be possible that she didn't bother to train her powers and focused on training her spirit photography.
After looking at Touhou Wiki, does Kasen have the most amough of abilities listed of any character?

And just because, here are few made up powers to few character:
Konngara: Ability to channel energy through objects
Shinki: Ability to create youkais
Koakuma: Ability to find any desireable book

[commandercool]

Of course, how many people in Gensokyo can really prove her wrong? I doubt many people outside of Human Village really keep track of any sort of history. As such, if she changes something about history, there are few people who can really object her. Maybe I shouldn't had used "absolute" word, but I didn't think of any other word to use.

Probably a lot of people, unless she does a really thorough job of covering her tracks. Gensokyo seems to be full of super-ancient entities who are aware of all sorts of little details that could contradict her constructed histories. She's aware of those details too in her Hakutaku form, but accounting for all of them would be quite a chore.

[Prime32]

Yukari would manipulate border of truth and lies to see pass Keine's ability

Yukari wasn't actively doing anything; she didn't seem to realise it had changed at all. Seeing through barriers is part of her powers.

[Tiamat]

ZUN stated regarding the Gensokyo Chronicles in PCB's prologue that "only the youkai know the true history of Gensokyo". Presumably he means only the old youkai of course, of which Yukari is one of. Since Yukari knows the true history of Gensokyo, this might be a reason she can see through Keine's powers.

[Imosa]

Well, you gave them in a way my brains cannot procress all the stuff you wrote down. Its hard to talka bout science that way, not because they cannot fit explaining sutff, but because most people don't have the proper knowledge to understand all the stuff.

Well, if you have any questions I'd be happy to try and explain some more. Its an interesting subject and I'd love to share it.

On the subject of Keine, I'm curious about Akyuu, I imagine her resurrection must have something to do with her immunity. It's weird because while I can easily imagine Yukari or other old youkai having immunity, for the sake of their sheer power, Akyuu doesn't seem to have that at all. She even dies and has a considerable respawn timer. Question, does she return with the memories of her previous incarnation or does she start her life by reading the Gensokyou chronicles or does she never read them and just continue writing history? Further more, is there any kind of stated reason why Shiki lets her reincarnate?

[ToyoRai]

Question, does she return with the memories of her previous incarnation or does she start her life by reading the Gensokyou chronicles or does she never read them and just continue writing history? Further more, is there any kind of stated reason why Shiki lets her reincarnate?

Well, I doubt most ghosts really forget their past lives once they die to the point where they just conintue their daily lives until they realise or accpet they are dead. So really, Akyuu's powers would make sure that she remembers everything once she reincarnates. And I don't think there is any reason why Shiki just lets it pass. Maybe her writing Gensokyo Chronicles is important job so she lets her to reincarnate when she needs to update it?

[Zoriri]

Question, does she return with the memories of her previous incarnation or does she start her life by reading the Gensokyou chronicles or does she never read them and just continue writing history? Further more, is there any kind of stated reason why Shiki lets her reincarnate?

I think she's born with them, since it says on the wiki that memories from her earlier incarnations are unclear (though she can still remember some events from those incarnations clearly). As to why Shiki lets her reincarnate, I'm not sure, but maybe she finds Akyuu's power helpful to humans, so she reincarnates her.

[AJS]

Of course, how many people in Gensokyo can really prove her wrong? I doubt many people outside of Human Village really keep track of any sort of history. As such, if she changes something about history, there are few people who can really object her. Maybe I shouldn't had used "absolute" word, but I didn't think of any other word to use.

Going off of that, I suppose that the ability to see through her illusions is based solely on how knowledgeable you are, rather than how powerful you are.  So Yukari just saw the village because of her age-old wisdom and knowledge.  But as you said, not many other people could prove her wrong otherwise.  Perhaps the more dim-witted youkai would easily be fooled by the altered history, and just wander elsewhere to find their food.

[Sagus]

According to Akyuu's commentray here, the only memories she retain clearly are the ones related to the Gensokyou Chronicles; it seems that she does retain some memories unrelated to it, but they're unclear.

According to the monologue, Akyuu has to petition the Yama to get permission to reincarnate, and during the time it takes to prepare her new body she works for her in Hell. It's probably just a deal made between them.

[ToyoRai]

I see. Still, I wonder how some one can just petition reincarnation. Her work must be important in order for usch a petiton ot get through.

Just to reask this, but you people think that wind and water manipulation are common trades with tengus and kappas if they are trained? Sure, Hatate doesn't seem to have that power, but it would be possible she hasn't bothered to train that over spirit photography. Also for Kasen having so many lsited powers, but that's bit of a small question. I am just reasking these, because every one seem to be so focused on my posts on Keine to care (seriously now, tone it down a bit),

[Prime32]

On Kasen, most characters' pages list whatever they claimed their ability was, which isn't always accurate or useful (see: Reisen talking about madness instead of waves, Seiga's ability coming from an item). Kasen never really made any claims like that, so it just lists all the random stuff she's done.

[Drake]

Important to note that none of Kasen's abilities have been officially stated; they are all observations. Reisen's ability, however, is officially stated as manipulating insanity, even though we know that she affects certain types of waves. Seiga, also, is officially stated to be able to pass through walls, even though we know it isn't her innate ability.

[ToyoRai]

I see on Kasen's case. Sort of odd to see a Touhou character from Windows era without any stated abilities. Only others are Daiyousei, Koakuma and Reisen II. And considering that Kasen is main focus of WaHH, its really is odd that she has no stated main ability.

[Hatateru]

But I thought at one point Kasen's main ability is stated to be "controlling animals"?. It was in the official WaHH webpage if I remember correctly.

[commandercool]

But I thought at one point Kasen's main ability is stated to be "controlling animals"?. It was in the official WaHH webpage if I remember correctly.

Can she control animals? I got the impression she could just talk to them and was good at convincing them to do things, but I don't remember anything suggesting that she has the supernatural ability to control them.

[Drake]

But I thought at one point Kasen's main ability is stated to be "controlling animals"?. It was in the official WaHH webpage if I remember correctly.

The wording isn't the same as it usually would be. It does say 動物を導く能力を持って, but not say 動物を導く程度の能力, which is how abilities are always formally stated. Other characters who don't have such a thing would be the Wakatsukis, Maribel and Renko. Maybe a few others.

[Starxsword]

@Tengus and Kappas: I would assume power to control wind and water are generic to Crow Tengu and Kappa in general. What I mean is I don't expect someone like Momiji to have power to control wind.

@Kasen's abilities: she can do a lot of things, but I don't think she has a listed ability. I might be control animal as someone mentioned. In either case, character with a listed ability can also do a bunch of other things which could be classified as an "ability". For example, Reimu can summon gods, but I don't believe that is a listed ability.

Probably a lot of people, unless she does a really thorough job of covering her tracks. Gensokyo seems to be full of super-ancient entities who are aware of all sorts of little details that could contradict her constructed histories. She's aware of those details too in her Hakutaku form, but accounting for all of them would be quite a chore.

I don't think Keine's ability alters memory or anything like that. Reimu could clearly remember there was supposed to be a village there, but she couldn't see it. Reimu can't see it probably because she wasn't from the village. Yukari saw it because it is possible that she was there when the village was built, so she knew the facts.

On the subject of Keine, I'm curious about Akyuu, I imagine her resurrection must have something to do with her immunity.

I believe PMiSS mentions that not only is Akyuu immune to Keine's ability, but also the Gensokyo Chronicles. The reason why that might be the case is probably because of Akyuu's ability of perfect memory. She recalls facts and not history.

@reincarnation: Akyuu's work is important, but it is hard to say if that is the reason why she is allowed special reincarnation. That is probably one of the reasons.

[Malyszeq]

I'm not sure, but wasn't it stated somewhere, that Keine's ability can only affect the parts of history of Gensokyo, that was compiled by Akyuu?

[Starxsword]

The opposite actually. She cannot affect the Gensokyo Chronicles. Here are a few relevant quotes from Perfect Momento in Strict Sense:

She can erase history when human, and when she becomes a hakutaku, she can create history.
Gensokyo's history is one created by her (*2).
Regarding history, things do not become history merely by happening.
Things do not become history unless someone records it as history.
She can fabricate history that didn't happen, or conversely, erase from history incidents which actually did happen.

2: The Hieda family's Gensokyo Chronicles is beyond her powers. Thus, it is not her history but ours.

[ToyoRai]

This question acutally came to me while back: does Koishi's ability to manipoulate people's subconsious allow her to mess with their emotions? Reason for that is because some one was comparing satori's powers to Kokoro's, which at first though to be ability to mind control people. THW now says that its actually ability to manipulate emotions, but that comparision brought up more comparision. So can Koishi mess with emotions, or are emotions and subconsious seprate things?

Oh yeah, I smell full moon hax coming from fan-art due the fact that Kagerou can transform into a wolf ONLY during full moon (just like EX_Keine, I even made a picture joking about it).