Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Help Me, Eirin! => Topic started by: Zengeku on June 11, 2009, 10:18:06 AM
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I just need to get some frustrations about PCB out. I'm not here to tell you that your favorite Touhou game is bad or anything. What is written below is a 100% subjective.
Sometimes i just get so damn annoyed. Perfect Cherry Blossom. That's what they call you. I say ImPerfect Cherry Blossom. The game simply stops being perfect after Stage 3 because that's when everything goes to hell. No, it didn't prevent me from clearing it but its just where things stop being fun and turn into a combination of easy attacks and bullshit attacks.
I don't even know where to begin. First off, the Prismriver battle has bound to be the worst Stage 4 boss in the Windows era. And that's saying something cause they've got Aya to compete with. Their attacks are very bland and their opener as Marisa are just pure bullshit. Their Marisa exclusive spellcard are easy no matter how you look at it but the Normal version appears quite intimidating compared to the Hard version. Their other spellcards stretch from a very easy streaming attack to two spellcards that i can't say much about aside from being not very fun at all. And they all seem so familiar to each other. All the other Stage 4 bosses, even Aya have more interesting spellcards.
Let's move on to Stage 5 shall we? The stage itself: Just fine but the boss... the boss can make me so pissed. I have died so much to her spellcards. Much more than to any of her attacks. The problem i have with the spellcards are really quite simple. The slow down. I can't stand when the game slows down unless it does it permanently. Its not much of a help. It just slows down the game so i can die miserably to the wall of bullets. Why don't i just go through the wall where the gaps are? Well there is some reasons for that. Not only does the slow-down alter my movement speed but it also makes the bullets harder to make out thus only increasing the difficulty of the card in the wrong direction.
Stage 6. Yuyuko's attacks are decent but her spellcards are all very boring. None of her spellcards are any fun at all. There is some of them i really need to do some grinding off but i have to drink multiple gallons of coffee if i'm to stay awake. Its not because they necessarily are easy but they are mainly just non-fun to play or cheap. I personally like to refer to Yuyuko as the worst Stage 6 boss in the PC era.
So in other words. The game is pretty much over after Stage 3 for me.
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I disagree...
PCB is my 2nd favorite.
and that was only becuase of the silly input lag.
the game itself is awesome orm stage 3 and beyond.
although stage 2 is truly a hell.( i am a lunatic player but i used to play on normal too!)
1) stage4: marisa has the easiest opener , I play sakuyaB and i still remember that when i switched to hard the opener was just BS and u dont even want to think whats going on for Lunatic
4 bombs are just not enough...
2)stage 5 : the slowdown is not exactly there to help u... i can think of it as a big bullet coming ur way.Although in lunatic-hard i cant imagine stage5 without it u will just get owned
3)stage 6: amazing stage truly a great last stage.it has nice music and is very tough.
ps:well i am quite bored to retype all the 30 lines i typed before ,when my pc crashed
(lazy me)
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I agree with the Prismriver sisters fight, especially on Hard/Lunatic. I play as Reimu B, and Lunasa's opener is very difficult to dodge, and almost seems random in its bullet placement. I usually bomb it as a result.
I don't agree with anything else, especially since PCB has the Crowning Moment of Awesome right at the end that no other game in the series can claim, with the possible exception of that one with Virtue of the Wind God Mountain of Faith.
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I agree with the Prismriver sisters fight, especially on Hard/Lunatic. I play as Reimu B, and Lunasa's opener is very difficult to dodge, and almost seems random in its bullet placement. I usually bomb it as a result.
Actually, Lunasa's opener is aimed. Not directly at you, but in front of you. You want to start out by shotgunning her, so that the first few walls develop at the top, rather than down at the bottom where they'll trap you. In doing so, you buy yourself some time where you can capture the attack without getting too claustrophobic.
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Even though I agree with you on the Prismriver sisters, I would rather fight them than Aya. However, I actually find Lyrica’s opener to be pretty easy (at least on hard anyway) and can beat it consistently. Merlin has the most bs opener out of the three.
And about Youmu, what can I say? Youmu is Youmu.
Eirin is by far the worst of the final bosses, imo, while Remilia and Yuyuko are the best.
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The reason i prefer fighting Aya is that she have some better spellcards than the Prismrivers imo. Aya's non-spells are pretty meh though. After re-reading my initial post i reached the conclusion that it was a little too harsh than whats fair. I would say that the game is indeed very good but it just isn't anywhere as good as the other Touhou games in the Windows Era. 8 out of 10 i would give it if i were to review the game.
I actually had a load of fun playing at least the first three stages in Hard difficulty and the three later stages at Normal. I'm planning on working on the Hard mode for stage 4-6.
I still think the Prismriver battle sucks though. Especially when compared to Patchouli and Satori.
About Youmu. My friend always tells me how her spellcards aren't that bad but her non-spells are the toughest about her. I disagree. I almost always absolutely ace those attacks. Youmu's openers feel like trivial dodging to me and so does Delusion of Enlightenment and whatever the Hard mode version is called. But when she uses slow-down i get hit. No matter what.
I don't agree with anything else, especially since PCB has the Crowning Moment of Awesome right at the end that no other game in the series can claim, with the possible exception of that one with Virtue of the Wind God Mountain of Faith.
PCB's conclusion is definitely awesome, i'll give you that. But i think VoWG is a hell of a lot more fun than X% Reflowering thus making MoF's conclusion better IMO.
Erin is by far the worst of the final bosses, imo, while Remilia and Yuyuko are the best.
There is only one reason i forgot about Eirin. I never play against her. One exception. I was doing a no-bombs run of IN the other day and i decided to play against Eirin for a change instead of Kaguya. I then realize why Kaguya is the better boss. Eirins spells sucks!!! Almost all of them are very easy even at Lunatic (at least compared to other final bosses) and if you are going for score there is a lot more potential for that if you play against Kaguya.
A good argument for fighting Kaguya could be Apollo 13 but Kaguya have LSI so...
As for who's the best final boss i still think its Yuyuko (because i don't feel Eirin counts.) while the best would be Remilia or Kanako.
On final and this time i mean it, final word. I'm happy you gave me some good replies to my topic. I feared i would get flames and angry posts. Maybe i'm just paranoid.
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Aya is incredibly fun, despite being somewhat bs. Her spells, like most of those in MoF, force you to actually try to make you read the bullets, exactly what I love in a bullet hell. IN is just the opposite, and Eirin and Kaguya have the dumbest cards ever. Oh, Yuyuko too. Most of the moves are more streaming than anything else.
The Prismriver battle does suck, but all in all it's not horrible.
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Aya is incredibly fun, despite being somewhat bs. Her spells, like most of those in MoF, force you to actually try to make you read the bullets, exactly what I love in a bullet hell. IN is just the opposite, and Eirin and Kaguya have the dumbest cards ever. Oh, Yuyuko too. Most of the moves are more streaming than anything else.
The Prismriver battle does suck, but all in all it's not horrible.
The Aya battle is actually very good if you ignore Peerless Wind God/Illusionary Dominance.
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The only good part about Aya's fight is Storm Day. Every other individual attack is very annoying (yes, even her static opener).
Anyway, tl;dr: BAWWWWWWWWWWW. As someone who has perfected stage 5 on lunatic, your accusations of Youmu are kinda odd. If she didn't slow things down, Hell God Sword would probably be the hardest spell card in the series, and it only helps you on her other spell cards as well.
The only thing I really agree with is that the Prismriver Sisters are very boring and annoying. Seriously though, you hate PCB, good job? I could do the same essay for SA.
EDIT: Yes, Eirin is the worst final boss BTW. Her fight as a whole is SoEW level in terms of fun.
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Erin sucky boss? YOU GOT NO LOVE FOR Omoikane's brain on hard lunatic and Astronomical Tombing <3 . . .
The only fight that sucks in PCB for me is Prismriver sisters, somehow I have the feeling that card is extremely odd. It feels odd.
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The only good part about Aya's fight is Storm Day. Every other individual attack is very annoying (yes, even her static opener).
Anyway, tl;dr: BAWWWWWWWWWWW. As someone who has perfected stage 5 on lunatic, your accusations of Youmu are kinda odd. If she didn't slow things down, Hell God Sword would probably be the hardest spell card in the series, and it only helps you on her other spell cards as well.
The only thing I really agree with is that the Prismriver Sisters are very boring and annoying. Seriously though, you hate PCB, good job? I could do the same essay for SA.
No, i don't hate PCB and yes my accusations does indeed sound odd. The problem i have with it is that the slow-down affects my movement and i don't like that at all. It feels awkward.
PS: Your new avatar is funny. Kind of like Letty's. Makes you look like a smart-ass. Wonder what impression mine gives...
Erin sucky boss? YOU GOT NO LOVE FOR Omoikane's brain on hard lunatic and Astronomical Tombing <3 . . .
The only fight that sucks in PCB for me is Prismriver sisters, somehow I have the feeling that card is extremely odd. It feels odd.
No, i've got no love for Omoikane's Brain. Especially not on Hard and Lunatic. I've captured them both a couple of times and that's all i ever want to do with those spells. Its one of those cards that doesn't really require more than moving very precisely. There is better spells out there. I do love ZUN's comments for the lunatic version of Omoikane's Brain though. Same thing with Asteroid Belt Lunatic.
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It's only a temporary one to spite Ruro. >_> Someday I'll find an avatar that I feel is worth switching to permanately, but not this.
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Yuyuko is a wonderfully designed boss fight. Her attacks are complex, unique, and get you to make use of the entire screen, which is always a good thing. They also all have enough of a randomness factor in them to keep them interesting and fresh after several playthroughs (unless you're one of those lame-o's who micromemorizes Deadly Dance). And of course there's Resurrection Butterfly. The good music and atmosphere are just the icing on the cake.
And even if I'm alone in thinking this, I still say that Kanako's pre-VoWG battle is the worst boss fight that ZUN has ever designed. She's lucky that VoWG exists, otherwise I wouldn't even spare a thought to that dumbass stage.
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Zengeku, if you think PCB is bad from your subjective view , then what is SA then? For me SA is the most uninspired spellcard game. Almost every spellcard or noncard there feels like plain bullet spam with what it seems like a pattern.
And even if I'm alone in thinking this, I still say that Kanako's pre-VoWG battle is the worst boss fight that ZUN has ever designed. She's lucky that VoWG exists, otherwise I wouldn't even spare a thought to that dumbass stage.
How dare you to destroy faith of Kanako. You will die as sacrefice for Moriya. Kanako has some poor cards indeed, I guess it is the music that compensates for the lame spellcards she has. Too much streaming required. Ex-Keine style.
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The only good part about Aya's fight is Storm Day. Every other individual attack is very annoying (yes, even her static opener).
I hate Storm Day. A lot. Help with it would be appreciated, though as far as I can tell it's just reading the bullets really really really fast.
Erin sucky boss? YOU GOT NO LOVE FOR Omoikane's brain on hard lunatic and Astronomical Tombing <3 . . .
More like Astronomical LOLtombing, amirite?
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Zengeku, if you think PCB is bad from your subjective view , then what is SA then? For me SA is the most uninspired spellcard game. Almost every spellcard or noncard there feels like plain bullet spam with what it seems like a pattern.
No, Helepolis. As i said, i don't think PCB was bad. As i posted earlier i realized my initial post was a little too harsh. I still think PCB is a good game just not as good as the other entries in the series. I just tend to over exaggerate things. You should have seen some of those reviews i used to write on Gamereactor, a scandinavian gaming site. The people there loved my reviews because they were all filled with harsh criticism towards popular games like Halo 3, Resistance 2 or Call of Duty. My initial post was just a post of slight annoyance.
SA however is a real gem in my opinion. Stage 1 is pretty lame but they mostly are. Stage 2 has a boss with some interesting spellcards compared to other stage 2 bosses imo. As for Stage 3 i love to dodge Mt. Ooe but the rest of the battle is pretty meh... Stage 4 have Satori. Stage 5 is pure gold and Catwalk can be quite fun and i like most of the Okuu battle pretty well.
I hate Storm Day. A lot. Help with it would be appreciated, though as far as I can tell it's just reading the bullets really really really fast.
More like Astronomical LOLtombing, amirite?
Its easier than the Hard version. Bigger gaps. Just a lot faster so there isn't really any advice other than practicing till' you get it.
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(unless you're one of those lame-o's who micromemorizes Deadly Dance).
:cry:
I love Yuyuko fight, though. The only card of hers that is boring is Repository. It's the same thing every time. Deadly Dance is at least fun, even if I know it move for move.
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Zengeku Topic/10
Man, I expected more. This topic was oddly bland.
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And even if I'm alone in thinking this, I still say that Kanako's pre-VoWG battle is the worst boss fight that ZUN has ever designed. She's lucky that VoWG exists, otherwise I wouldn't even spare a thought to that dumbass stage.
Easy for a final boss? Yes. Atmospheric and fun as hell? Yes. I've played Kanako more than any other final boss except for Remilia, and over 100 of those playthroughs are Scarlet Meister related.
(unless you're one of those lame-o's who micromemorizes Deadly Dance).
:cry:
I hate Storm Day. A lot. Help with it would be appreciated, though as far as I can tell it's just reading the bullets really really really fast.
It is. And yet it's her most fun attack.
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Easy for a final boss? Yes. Atmospheric and fun as hell? Yes. I've played Kanako more than any other final boss except for Remilia, and over 100 of those playthroughs are Scarlet Meister related.
Same. Kanako is the only one I really enjoyed grinding besides Remilia, to a more limited extent. (Comes in handy, too, when you're trying to 1cc Lunatic and she can only kill you once or twice.)
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Zengeku Topic/10
Man, I expected more. This topic was oddly bland.
Well, what did you expect? I'm not giving PCB, the DoDonPachi treatment. (The one where i based on completely biased ideals of what a shooting game should be is bashing the game, much to everyones frustration.)
And why did you expect more? You've got a grudge against PCB? Let's hear it!
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PCB Stages 4-6 are fine.
PCB Stages 2-3 are "What the fuck is this shit doing in my Stage 2 and 3?"
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Actually, Lunasa's opener is aimed. Not directly at you, but in front of you. You want to start out by shotgunning her, so that the first few walls develop at the top, rather than down at the bottom where they'll trap you. In doing so, you buy yourself some time where you can capture the attack without getting too claustrophobic.
Indeed, that's also the strategy I use. However, the second non-card is a complete mindfuck for me. I can do the first and second waves, but the third wave shoves so many crisscrossing bullets into my face that I don't know what the hell to do.
As for the OP, I will admit that the Prismrivers and Yuyuko are pretty bland, but nonetheless, I still enjoy their respective battles. (Although, I can do without the Prismrivers' bullshit openers and last cards, as well as Yuyuko's Ghost Knives.)
I really do like PCB though. It's challenging. Hell, even Chen still keeps me on my toes, and she's a Stage 2 boss.
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...PCB Stages 2-3 are "What the fuck is this shit doing in my Stage 2 and 3?"
*giggles* Agreed. I'm grinding PCB on hard (with MarisaA) right now, and I have to continually remind myself through those two stages that all I need to do is get through Russian Dolls so that I can open up again. Stage 4 is a blast, you can adjust the Prismriver fight to match your mood, and Youmu is a joyous fight on hard.
@Zengeku:
Speaking of Youmu....The slowdown is actually rather sneaky, in that it is definitely there to help the player, but only if you let it help you. At least with Marisa, while that slowdown is in effect, your unfocused movement is roughly the same apparent speed as your focused movement would normally be. If you switch to unfocused, you can use those precious frames to wend a path through the bullet walls she throws up at you and get to the other side before the game goes back to normal speed, because your perception, analysis, and reaction times are enhanced due to the slowdown. If you try to fight the slowdown and use focused movement, it becomes terribly difficult to get through, and you'll almost certainly be caught within the wall of bullets when time returns to normal.
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@Zengeku:
Speaking of Youmu....The slowdown is actually rather sneaky, in that it is definitely there to help the player, but only if you let it help you. At least with Marisa, while that slowdown is in effect, your unfocused movement is roughly the same apparent speed as your focused movement would normally be. If you switch to unfocused, you can use those precious frames to wend a path through the bullet walls she throws up at you and get to the other side before the game goes back to normal speed, because your perception, analysis, and reaction times are enhanced due to the slowdown. If you try to fight the slowdown and use focused movement, it becomes terribly difficult to get through, and you'll almost certainly be caught within the wall of bullets when time returns to normal.
As of yet, i have only fought Youmu on Hard once but i think i understand what you are saying. As far as Normal mode goes i've got no problems with Youmu but her non-spells and Delusion of Enlightenment is still much more fun than any of her slow-down spellcards.
Also another thing. Is the Prismriver battle random or something? I just watched a replay by Heartbeam. Thought i might learn something you see. Then when he fought with the Prismrivers they came up with a spellcard, Hino Phantasm or something like that, that i have never seen before. I have only practiced the stage four times in an effort to gain an all-spellcard bonus run of it and in those i never encountered that spell.
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Also another thing. Is the Prismriver battle random or something? I just watched a replay by Heartbeam. Thought i might learn something you see. Then when he fought with the Prismrivers they came up with a spellcard, Hino Phantasm or something like that, that i have never seen before. I have only practiced the stage four times in an effort to gain an all-spellcard bonus run of it and in those i never encountered that spell.
The Solo spellcard (And the noncard that precedes it) is defined by the Sister that took more damage during their first spellcard.
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If you hated Youmu's slowdown cards in PCB then I'm sure you will just want to hug her after completing her cards in STB, especially her Level 6 Scene 2 Card, I swear I nearly had a stroke completing that card. I can't even touch her Scene 6 card.
Still her slowdown cards in PCB are fairly static, I still have nightmares about her non-card attacks though.
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It's weird how I never really see you tube video of PCB , I see stage 3, and stage 5 runs once in awhile, but all the other stages are like "Screw those stages".
I never really knew the reasoning for that. However, I dislike PCB too for some odd reason or another. Not sure, just don't play it very often I guess.
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The game simply stops being perfect after Stage 3 because that's when everything goes to hell.
This happens with nearly every Touhou game.
The problem i have with the spellcards are really quite simple. The slow down. I can't stand when the game slows down unless it does it permanently. Its not much of a help. It just slows down the game so i can die miserably to the wall of bullets. Why don't i just go through the wall where the gaps are? Well there is some reasons for that. Not only does the slow-down alter my movement speed but it also makes the bullets harder to make out thus only increasing the difficulty of the card in the wrong direction.
This is not a mistake or a problem, this is the point. You have to move differently to defeat her.
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If you can't do something ONE way, try ANOTHER way before you begin to call it impossible or bullshit. You can't "brute force" everything on the spot.
And always remember, I could be determined.
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Still her slowdown cards in PCB are fairly static, I still have nightmares about her non-card attacks though.
You have this totally backwards. Youmu's spell cards are quite random, while her non-spell cards are practically the same every time. There's a loophole to completely trivialize her midboss non-card and opener, and her second non-spell believe it or not is 99% aimed away from you. The only things you ever have to move to dodge are the knives.
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I think Aya's quite okay actually. Sure, Maximum Spider is possibly one of the toughest and more BS lvl 4 attacks out there, but MoF gives you shitloads of bombs, it's not like that attack will burn out more than one (her STAGE on the other hand... oh gods, the horror).
I also think that Lyrica's non-spells are quite okay. I'm much more comfortable dodging those straight bullets that evading those damn ghosts merlin throws at you (Laser part is easy, though).
I (now) do somewhat okay against Youmu's spells but her normal attacks are usually blitzkrieg. And personally love the whole Yuyuko fight. Someone there mentioned Eirin. I think that (Apollo13 aside) she's way more enjoyable than Kaguya who just seems like a random stupid girl with a silly sprite that throws random coloured bullets at you.
Finally, anyone that says that Virtue of Wind God is more enjoyable than Ressurection Butterfly: -X% reflowering must be on crack. Hard it this, fun it is not u.u
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What the hell is "Maximum Spider?" ???
I think that (Apollo13 aside) she's way more enjoyable than Kaguya who just seems like a random stupid girl with a silly sprite that throws random coloured bullets at you.
At least they're well designed attacks (accusations about Life Spring Infinity aside). Most of Eirin's spells are uninspired attacks that rely on really cheap tactics to hit you, whereas Kaguya's are more skill oriented.
Finally, anyone that says that Virtue of Wind God is more enjoyable than Ressurection Butterfly: -X% reflowering must be on crack. Hard it this, fun it is not u.u
It's an expert spell card. 8) Learn it, and it's really fun.
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What the hell is "Maximum Spider?" ???
It's one of Spiderman's supermoves in the Marvel vs. Capcom series, where he bounces off the walls and hits the opponent with a succession of powerful punches and kicks.
He's referring to Peerless Wind God.
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[VoWG's] an expert spell card. 8) Learn it, and it's really fun.
Yeah, until you work up the insanity to try timing it out. Then you hate it again.
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Ehmm, VileLasagna. Reflowering is just a matter of moving at the bottom of the screen. Left or Right, maybe a little bit up and down. The kind of spell where you should only move when necessary. There isn't much movement involved. Its still a very hard spellcard on Lunatic of course but in terms of entertainment i'd say VoWG wins big time. VoWG forces you to make a lot of quick dodges and a lot of different movements.
VoWG is eternally more entertaining than any spellcard Yuyuko has combined.
If you hated Youmu's slowdown cards in PCB then I'm sure you will just want to hug her after completing her cards in STB, especially her Level 6 Scene 2 Card, I swear I nearly had a stroke completing that card. I can't even touch her Scene 6 card.
Still her slowdown cards in PCB are fairly static, I still have nightmares about her non-card attacks though.
Cleared them all. And about those non-attacks. They aren't frightening at all. Its just dodging. On Lunatic though, i'm not so sure. I'd actually say that Youmu's attacks are more fun than her spellcards.