Author Topic: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking  (Read 75436 times)

Dular

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2012, 05:37:37 AM »
Ahh, good to know, one of the big things that kept me from getting into DOTS at all was the fact that a lot of the characters skills were just surface explorations of their ability's. Really turned me off to the game as one of the big things that got me interested in Touhou was the wide variety of interesting ability's the characters have, along with the surprising amount of depth and thought put into them for a simple shooting game.

Yukari: Gap's basically, and a barrier skill (which they later removed. >_<)

Sakuya: Knives mainly, slight nod to her time ability's in two of her skills.

Reimu: Barriers and Danmaku, not even a nod to her intuition or "floating", it would have been cool too be able to use Reimu's intuition to like get a idea of where the enemy characters where periodically or something along those lines.

I could go on for a while, I've been seething about this silently for quite some time.

While yes, a lot of abilities are nods to their powers and what they are mainly known for(Sakuya mostly), you can only do so much with four skills max, and some characters have much more developed characters as compared to others.

For example, from the top of my head, Sakuya is known for having silver knives, being a chief maid, controlling time, and probably being a lunarian.  Those are the things a typical fan would know, right?  Can you think of anything else especially noteworthy?  A spot check reveals the fact that her past isn't revealed and Sakuya isn't her name.  That's pretty much everything.

Now, we are trying to develop a little spell card system here, which is skills based on a girls' spellcard.  Some of the lesser known Touhous don't even have spellcards, so we pretty much make them up, and that's totally cool with lesser known touhous.  I mean, look at Lily White and the Prismrivers up there.  Now, if you saw a made up one on a more prominent figure, like say.. Seniority "Training the Fool" in reference to her Chief Maid status on Sakuya.. I think anyone would raise an eyebrow.  And since ALL of Sakuya's spellcards involve Time travel and Knives, occasionally thrown in a different way.  There isn't much else to her or her spellcards, so that's what she gets.  Knives and nods to time manipulation.


It's a similar thing to Reimu, sure her power is flying and she has super intuition, but none of her spellcards do much in relation to those, they all involve her shrine maiden abilities, along with one martial arts spellcard and two "Go away Aya" spellcards, so she gets shrine maiden skills.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 05:48:55 AM by Dular »

Amraphenson

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2012, 06:22:36 AM »
It's really not like Reimu advertises her 'floating' ability as anything besides 'hey guys you could never actually beat me in a straight fight, play by my rules.'

As much as I complain about dots, the old hero designs were pretty faithful to portrayals. Patchy's philostone is a super mode in Soku and was an absurd orb in old dots. Like Dular said, Reimu was always centered around her miko abilities, not her 'floating' ability. Sakuya's was actually a pretty faithful rendition of her Hisoutensoku self.

and yeah, what Dular said. again. only so much you can do with four skills. Just look at the other source material. Oh Faceless Void is a unstoppable horror from beyond the ken of time...and he has glorified dash, evasion, bash, and his ult. If we tried to make them really good portrayals of the characters, it would need too many skills.
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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2012, 07:30:15 AM »
Random thoughts on Cirno whilst walking to a lecture.
Again, no point of reference. Numbers can be changed to whatever.

Cirno
Strength: 24+2.2
Agility: 17+1.5
Intelligence: 9+9
Movement speed: 300?
Damage: 60-65
BAT: x
Animation startup: x
Backswing: x
Attack Range: Melee

(D) 20s cd.
Cirno deals pure damage to herself and her target, as well as slowing herself and all nearby enemies. Melee range. Cirno can kill herself with this ability.
Level 1: 120 damage to self, 100 damage to enemy. 20% slow on enemies, 10% slow on self.
Level 2: 200 damage to self, 180 damage to enemy. 25% slow on enemies, 15% slow on self.
Level 3: 280 damage to self, 260 damage to enemy. 30% slow on enemies, 20% slow on self.
Level 4: 360 damage to self, 340 damage to enemy. 35% slow on enemies, 25% slow on self.

(F)
Cirno emits an 900 range aura that reduces the total armor and magic resistance of all nearby enemies and allies.
Level 1: 20% reduction.
Level 2: 40% reduction.
Level 3: 60% reduction.
Level 4: 80% reduction.

(R) 24s cd.
Cirno spins with her ice sword, dealing magical damage all nearby allies and foes. Cirno gains magical immunity whilst spinning. Cirno will be stunned and damaged at the end of this ability. Cirno can kill herself by casting this ability.
Level 1: Spins for 5 seconds, 60 dps. Stunned for 2 seconds. Deals 60 damage to Cirno.
Level 2: Spins for 6 seconds, 80 dps. Stunned for 1.85 seconds. Deals 120 damage to Cirno.
Level 3: Spins for 7 seconds, 100 dps. Stunned for 1.7 seconds. Deals 180 damage to Cirno.
Level 4: Spins for 8 seconds, 120 dps. Stunned for 1.5 seconds. Deals 240 damage to Cirno.

I'm the strongest! (W)
The strongest needs the highest strength.
Level 1: +15 Strength
Level 2: +30 Strength
Level 3: +45 Strength

Alternate (W)
Omnislash which registers Cirno and her allies as valid targets. Higher STR base/growth to compensate for losing +STR ult. Cirno can kill herself with this ability. The ability ends if Cirno dies.
Level 1: 5 slashes that deal 120 magical damage each.
Level 2: 10 slashes that deal 160 magical damage each.
Level 3: 15 slashes that deal 200 magical damage each.


Cirno (Version 2.0)
Strength: 24+2.2
Agility: 17+1.5
Intelligence: 9+9
Movement speed: 300?
Damage: 60-65
BAT: x
Animation startup: x
Backswing: x
Attack Range: Melee

(D) 20s cd.
Cirno deals pure damage to herself and her target, as well as slowing herself and all nearby enemies. Melee range. Cirno can kill herself with this ability.
Level 1: 120 damage to self, 100 damage to enemy. 20% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 10% slow on self for 5 seconds.
Level 2: 200 damage to self, 180 damage to enemy. 25% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 15% slow on self for 5 seconds.
Level 3: 280 damage to self, 260 damage to enemy. 30% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 20% slow on self for 5 seconds.
Level 4: 360 damage to self, 340 damage to enemy. 35% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 25% slow on self for 5 seconds.

(F)
Cirno emits an 900 range aura that reduces the total armor and magic resistance of all nearby enemies.
Level 1: 15% reduction.
Level 2: 30% reduction.
Level 3: 45% reduction.
Level 4: 60% reduction.

(R)
Taunt that debuffs Cirno.
Level 1: Taunts for 1 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 50 damage at the end of the taunt.
Level 2: Taunts for 1.33 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 100 damage at the end of the taunt.
Level 3: Taunts for 1.66 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 150 damage at the end of the taunt.
Level 4: Taunts for 2 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 200 damage at the end of the taunt.

I'm the strongest! (W)
The strongest needs the highest strength.
Level 1: +15 Strength
Level 2: +30 Strength
Level 3: +45 Strength
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:24:34 PM by Ran Yakumo »

trancehime

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2012, 08:05:56 AM »
Koakuma
Role: Support / Nuker / Lane Support

I designed Koakuma with the tenets of hero-killing support in mind. Her skills all cater to assist nukers in some shape or form, with Pyroclasm killing any chances of clever split-second jukes from the enemy hero especially because it kills regeneration from items (both HP and mana). The utility of all her skills provide Koakuma with a reasonably flexible skill builds, I think.

Skills only for the meantime.

[1] Sweet Devil's Ignition
Ability: Target Unit
Affects: Enemies
With all the impishness of a little devil, Koakuma throws an accursed fireball at the enemy that amplifies all magical damage against them and temporarily prevents them from casting spells for a few seconds.
Skywrath Mage's Ancient Seal clone with retweaked values and a damage aspect

Damage: 100/150/200/250
Duration: 2/3/4/5s
Magical damage amplification: 15/22/29/36%

Cooldown: 13s
Manacost: 90/105/120/135

[2] Innocent Pyroclasm
Ability: Target Point
Affects: Enemies
Almost like an accident gone even more horribly wrong, Koakuma mucks up a bonfire spell creating a large pillar of demonic flame. Anyone caught in the blast is severely burned, taking some damage and being unable to recover from further damage for a short period of time. During the period in which they are burned, they also have reduced mana regeneration. The skill has a cast delay.
Use Flamestrike for this one, because the effect should also destroy trees

Range: 700
Cast Delay: 0.8s
Radius: 250 (?)
Demonic Burn duration: 7/8/9/10s
Demonic Burn mana regeneration: -10.0/-15.0/-20.0/-25.0 Similar to Pugna's Nether Ward
Damage: 100/175/250/325

Cooldown: 17s
Manacost: 125/150/175/200

Mana loss at levels -
LV1 - 70 per 17s = 4/s net loss
LV2 - 120 per 17s = 7/s net loss
LV3 - 180 per 17s = 10/s net loss
LV4 - 250 per 17s = 14/s net loss

[3] Fervor from the Temptress
Ability: Target Unit
Affects: Allies
Koakuma's charm and her interactions with Patchouli have given her the ability to... benefit her teammates with her feminine charms. Koakuma restores a portion of mana to a target ally with demonic, almost lustful fervor. Koakuma's life force is used for this endeavour, causing her to lose some health in the process. Koakuma can kill herself using the skill; and if she does so, the target she uses this skill on has their mana restored to full. Obviously, nothing happens if she uses it on herself while killing/denying herself
KotL Chakra Magic clone

Range: 950
Mana Restored: 90/180/270/350

Cooldown: 20/19/18/17s
Manacost: 45/60/75/90
HP cost: 75/75/100/100

[Ult] The Devil May Cry (On You)
Ability: Target Unit
Affects: Enemies
The culmination of her duties in the library and reading off-duty has allowed Koakuma the ability to sear through the essence of a person, reducing their magic resistance to a certain degree. Furthermore, they become visible to Koakuma and her allies, even if they are invisible.
Slardar's Amplify Damage but magical version

Range: 700
Duration: 25s
Magic resistance reduction: 16/19/22% (?)
Grants true sight on the target

Cooldown: 12s
Manacost: 25/50/75

« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 02:59:17 PM by trancehime »

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CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2012, 11:29:00 AM »
My turn :3
When i think about remake, suddenly tenshi and eiki comes to mind. No idea for eiki atm
(note : the blue coloured ones are the changes/remakes)
Tenshi

Stats
Strength 24 (+2.75)
Agility 21(+2.0)
Intelligence 20 (+1.5)


Damage: 62-65   
Armor: 4.33
Movespeed: 300
Attack Range: 128 (melee)   
Attack Animation: 0.567/0.4   
Cast Animation: 0.2/0.42   
Base Attack Time: 1.6
Missile Speed: 0   

-some change in her stats since : a)60 total starting stats and 6.0 total growth for every girls ingame seems quite boring to me (tho it makes easier to balance every girl's stats) and b)her crap starting stats is one of the reasons why Tenshi gets no love

Earth Sign "Sword of the Unyielding Soil" (D)
Skills
Tenshi strikes the ground, launching a straight travelling fissure dealing damage and stunning enemies in its path. Fissure caused on ground cannot be passed. The crevasse lasts for 8 seconds on all levels
Cast Range: 900 (Maximum)
Width: 225
Spirit Cost: 100/115/130/145MP
Cooldown: 16/15/14/13s
Level 1: Does 125 damage and stuns for 1 seconds
Level 2: Does 175 damage and stuns for 1.25 seconds
Level 3: Does 225 damage and stuns for 1.5 seconds
Level 4: Does 275 damage and stuns for 1.75 seconds


-yes i copied fissure from earthshaker DotA because it was perfectly fine and quite balanced

Heaven Sign "Sword of the Divine Justice" (passive) (F)
Every 2 + [ 360/STR ] seconds, Tenshi deals a shockwave strike with her regular attack. Pressing the ESC key tells you how many seconds till the keystone is ready.
Level 1: 300 Area of Effect, deals 60 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.3 second stun.
Level 2: 340 Area of Effect, deals 80 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.4 second stun.
Level 3: 380 Area of Effect, deals 100 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.5 second stun.
Level 4: 420 Area of Effect, deals 120 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.6 second stun.

-i prefer leave her second skill alone, since its balanced

Keystone "World Creation Press" (R)
Tenshi descends onto the opponent with an enlarged keystone in her arms. Tenshi leaps 600 range foward and lands with giant keystone, smashing all enemies and stunning them. The closer to the keystone, the more damage taken and  the longer the stun. Consume a keystone charge from Heaven Sign "Sword of the Divine Justice". If Tenshi doesn't land at any enemies at all, Tenshi suffers 25% slow for 1 second. Has 0.5 s casting time and 1400 leap speed.
Cast Range: N/A
Width: 350
Spirit Cost: 125
Cooldown: 12
Level 1: 50 damage min and 150 damage max, stuns for 0 seconds min and 1 seconds max
Level 2: 100 damage min and 225 damage max, stuns for 0 seconds min and 1.5 seconds max
Level 3: 150 damage min and 300 damage max, stuns for 0.5 seconds min and 2.0 seconds max
Level 4: 200 damage min and 375 damage max, stuns for 0.5 seconds min and 2.5 seconds max


-why consume a keystone? This is to prevent her capable of stunning everyone for eternity, and its quite logical to me (her keystone who circles around her head gets bigger when she jumps :3)
-the skill description seems complicated sorry x_x help for simplify the description will be appreciated
-cannot be used when you have no keystone charge, so if you're not skilled your F yet this skill will be impossible to use.

"Scarlet Weather Rhapsody of All Humankind" (W)
Launches red lightning all over the map, striking all enemy units. The map will be revealed for a brief moment with red mist, indicating an incoming attack. Channelling skill. Does pure damage.
Spirit Cost: 200/300/400MP
Cooldown: 120s
Level 1: Does 200 pure damage.
Level 2: Does 300 pure damage.
Level 3: Does 400 pure damage.

-Still the same ultimate (based on old version) maybe leave it for now, tho revealing your allies to your enemies is just stupid
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 01:10:37 PM by AkurouNyan~ »
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Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2012, 11:35:49 AM »
Just my quick thoughts on that.
I don't think that Tenshi needs a reduction on the MP cost of the W.
Also, how fast/visible would the R be?
That is all.

CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2012, 11:39:20 AM »
hmm dunno for ultimate since she has problem with manapool already (even with maxed R) also thanks for reminding w
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Pesco

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2012, 11:42:06 AM »
The scaling shouldn't be that big. 500 pure damage is a crapton.

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2012, 11:42:28 AM »
Buy a crow or whatever the new energy booster will be. Problem solved.
The skills are too good otherwise, I think.

CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2012, 11:44:54 AM »
but 500 pure at level 3 is from the original map i believe ( i copypaste em) anyway numbers can be changed too =D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:48:51 AM by AkurouNyan~ »
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Pesco

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2012, 11:46:21 AM »
I'm quite sure it was 200 pure damage at max.

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2012, 11:47:17 AM »
I'm quite sure it was 200 pure damage at max.
No it was 200 pure at level 1.
I think it was 400500 at max.

CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2012, 11:51:03 AM »
SWR got buffed (i didn't noticed tho,forgot which version) from 200/300/400 damage to 250/375/500 damage
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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2012, 11:53:44 AM »
I personally think that the 200/300/400 values are better, especially if you're going to lower the mana cost (which I still dislike).

CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2012, 11:57:43 AM »
i think the manacost should keep same as original tho, since no more scaling stuff like before (forcing tenshi to farm high-tier str items to make her do any good, instead of works pretty well with just 2 kebabs)
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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2012, 12:09:25 PM »
What if Tenshi learns R before she learns F?

CloverNaght

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2012, 12:20:47 PM »
she can't use her R then (same issue as storm spirit's passive). Well the skill desc seems awful but i got no idea how to describe it better
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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2012, 04:09:17 PM »
skill 1(Donations, Please) - active/passive. Passive part lets her gain gold faster. Active lets her ping enemies on the map.
skill 2(Evil Sealing Circle) - active/passive. Gives her armor bonus, something low, like 1/2/3/4. Active part allows her to trap an enemy for several seconds. They cannot move and cast.
skill 3(Fantasy Seal) - damage spell.
skill 4(Musou Tensei, not sure what the translation for it is currently) - her ultimate. Temporary invincibility and does damage to all targets around her. Friendly fire.

I want to see Youmu's ultimate as a counter, Six Root Cleansing, but I don't know how that will work...

I also want to see Remilia as a melee character, instead of range. It does not make sense to me why Remilia is range.

I'm not in favour of too many skills that have active/passive components though. I'd rather have a 5th skill or just have each skill make a greater impact. A skill with 2 components cannot have either being as effective as they could be, otherwise why bother putting skill points into other skills? Not to mention that it complicates skill interactions. Certain effects can be achieved via better skill design, e.g. Reimu herself gains gold quicker than many other girls initially if she skills her yin-yang orb. Evil Sealing Circle is one of the skills in her alternate skillset - it creates a circular barrier that prevents units from escaping. Higher levels will have the sealing circle do damage.

An active counter-attack skill could work for Youmu in place of her current ult. I've only tweaked her armour breaking skill at the moment to just ignore a fixed percentage of armour for her own attacks at each level. Her changes will mostly come from changes in the stat system.

Remilia as a strength melee hero has been done before and was one of the ideas I was considering for her, but it makes using gungnir rather awkward unless she uses it as a melee weapon (?!). Although it looks weird, but a ranged Remilia makes it easier for her to hang back and gungnir people from outside of sight range or use bat form to close in for a gank.

Update: I'll write an API for the systems in the map soon, once I think it's ready for having skills put in. The original map had no such thing, making several older systems ignored by newer skills or never updated because they were forgotten, but still remained in the map for some skills. There's a tonne of documentation. orz... On the other hand, this should simplify a lot of coding - things like Gungnir can be done with less than half a page of code, as opposed to the 3-4 pages in the original map, since you just need to call on the projectile system and pass it an onHit function. Edit: In fact this will be a fun test of efficiency for my projectile system. Gonna see what happens when I launch 1000 gungnirs in this map vs the old one. Hehehehehe
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 04:16:04 PM by ApharmdB »

Helepolis

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2012, 09:07:37 PM »
I'll be honest to say first that: Holy shit what happened to this thread? Why the hero numbers and brainstorming suddenly? Can we focus on like more important things first? Like, core mechanics / etc? These posts make it look like as if we're dealing with old dots here. The endless release of versions where numbers are endlessly tweaked for no reason. I thought we hated that or did I miss something here?

Priorities, personally they should be put at the map it self: Does it work? Is it efficient? Do the things work like Aph intended them to be. And so on. Balance/remakes/hero suggestions can come later, not now IMO.



Aph, yes I noticed that Valve doesn't responds although my e-mail was fairly formal instead of "HI VALVE, PLEASE(ry". I had asked it before at the Steam Support, but they redirected me to Valve's development e-mail or something for these kind of "business" proposals. Quite logical as they only do tech support.

Also, I couldn't read in your opening post whether you're returning back to the roots (no scaling skills between magical/physical like LoL) and those kind of things?

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »
I'm suggesting reworks on heroes that were horribly broken in the prior version of DotS.
Aph already seems to have ideas on how he wants the system to work, so I'm not saying anything about that.

Dular

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2012, 09:11:43 PM »
I'll be honest to say first that: Holy shit what happened to this thread? Why the hero numbers and brainstorming suddenly? Can we focus on like more important things first? Like, core mechanics / etc? These posts make it look like as if we're dealing with old dots here. The endless release of versions where numbers are endlessly tweaked for no reason. I thought we hated that or did I miss something here?

Priorities, personally they should be put at the map it self: Does it work? Is it efficient? Do the things work like Aph intended them to be. And so on. Balance/remakes/hero suggestions can come later, not now IMO.



Aph, yes I noticed that Valve doesn't responds although my e-mail was fairly formal instead of "HI VALVE, PLEASE(ry". I had asked it before at the Steam Support, but they redirected me to Valve's development e-mail or something for these kind of "business" proposals. Quite logical as they only do tech support.

Also, I couldn't read in your opening post whether you're returning back to the roots (no scaling skills between magical/physical like LoL) and those kind of things?

This.

Amraphenson

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2012, 11:13:24 PM »
Aph asked for hero suggestions, so...He has his own direction for the game in terms of mechanics, and he's looking for ideas in general at this point. One sentence things like 'cut down creep scaling', or 'please don't put the boat back at moriya top' are better for irc, while threads are nice for big things like hero concepts. We're really just throwing ideas at him at this point.
Sugoiiii~
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[23:20] <Stuffman> enjoy your personally crafted hell Amra

trancehime

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2012, 11:34:04 PM »
I was asked to give ideas.

I wouldn't have said anything if nobody had asked me to suggest anything ;)

The thing is, Aph has already written a lot of the system that he wants for the new DotS, and I personally have nothing to say against or in criticism of the implementation, so really, there is no reason to make those questions @ Helepolis.

I'll be honest to say first that: Holy shit what happened to this thread? Why the hero numbers and brainstorming suddenly? Can we focus on like more important things first? Like, core mechanics / etc? These posts make it look like as if we're dealing with old dots here. The endless release of versions where numbers are endlessly tweaked for no reason. I thought we hated that or did I miss something here?

The endless release of versions are probably because the developers never got them right after the second or third retweak in the first place. You're almost never going to get it right first time, but failing it past the fourth/fifth time is just stupid, that's just the incapability of the people to consider balance in the fist place. What should actually be questioned here isn't the core mechanics, but rather, what makes DotS different from others of the same style? Will there be no differing factors? I know Aph wanted to do something similar to team-unique abilities such as being able to summon Genji/Hisous (and thunder I guess) but those are not necessarily CORE mechanics...

Even in maps like DotA and LoL, number retweaks might occur like... Every x+1~3 patches or some shit. And that might be because a hero needs a buff or a nerf, not necessarily because the hero itself needed to become absolutely OP or needed to become absolutely useless...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:39:11 PM by trancehime »

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2012, 01:02:14 AM »
I think even DotA has some skills that scale now right? The original point of skills having scaling damage is to have them grow with the character. I stopped short of saying "so that they will still be useful late-game" because it's entirely possible to have a skill that doesn't scale that is still useful late-game. Set Okuu's nuke to do 5k damage for a silly example. What sets a scaling skill apart from one that doesn't scale is that the one that doesn't scale can be more useful early game. Having a 450 flat damage AoE skill gives the hero a potentially strong advantage that she can use early-mid. It may not be competitive late-game damage-wise, but that's where ancillary effects like stuns come in. Having ALL skills scale removes this variation, so yes I wouldn't like all the skills to scale, but that doesn't mean no scaling skills at all - some skills like Okuu's ult or Patchy's Philosopher's Stone which ought to be late-game skills do need some scaling.

I really do appreciate the ideas for heros btw. Nothing's really set in stone yet, except the direction that the map should go in - more towards canon-like character designs, less broken designs (like old Flandre... wtf), and hopefully better use of the faith resource either via weather control or team-specific abilities like those at the shrine. I did after make the Esc key hotkey the shop and the shrine so that it'd be easier to use these things. I wonder about the Moriya boat though. I liked those terrain features, but I haven't encountered any real abuse of the boat, only that it was pretty stupid to use it to run away from someone like Remilia or Aya. It was originally removed to make way for the yukkuri creep camp after all...

All the basic AoS systems work currently - hero selection, creep spawning, tower/barracks invulnerability (towers need to be taken down before rax), neutral creeps, resources, creep scaling (although set to zero at the moment, can be changed at a moment's notice via a game constant, or even in-game, and can be capped), shops, recipes, stash, defeat/victory conditions, observers, assists, bounty, terrain features, etc. It's entirely possible to play a full game on the map now... if people don't mind only have auto-attack and team-ping. Heh. Like Trance mentioned, ideas regarding how DotS should be different from DotA would be good - that's why I'm looking at the faith resource and team-unique abilities at the moment. In SC/WC3 melee, the secondary resource was vital for late-game units and strategies. I think faith can serve that purpose.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:09:48 AM by ApharmdB »

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2012, 04:38:54 AM »
Quote
Remilia as a strength melee hero has been done before and was one of the ideas I was considering for her, but it makes using gungnir rather awkward unless she uses it as a melee weapon (?!). Although it looks weird, but a ranged Remilia makes it easier for her to hang back and gungnir people from outside of sight range or use bat form to close in for a gank.

Looking at her current skill set, that would be the case. But Remilia is a melee attacker and preferes melee, which is why I would prefer her to be a melee hero. If you play the fighting games, she has 2 memorable skills, Spear the Gungnir and Red the Nightless Castle(or Scarlet Devil ~ Scarlet Devil). So, those would be my suggested skills.
For weapons, she should use fists. But does this make the Gungnir animation awkward? This could be an issue if this is the case.
The other skills I can think of is Dracula's Cradle, which would be a dash type skill and Regeneration of sorts.

These are my ideas on what skill set she would have to better fit her fighting style in canon.
Her skill set pretty much looks something like this:
1 range skill, 1 dash skill, 1 melee range utimate(Red the Nightless Castle), and a regeneration skill.

@Tenshi's DoTS skill set: Yeah, I don't think Tenshi is all that impressive in DoTS. Even her ultimate is not that good comparatively speaking. I believe it is also interruptable, which is painful.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2012, 05:08:14 AM »
@Tenshi's DoTS skill set: Yeah, I don't think Tenshi is all that impressive in DoTS. Even her ultimate is not that good comparatively speaking. I believe it is also interruptable, which is painful.
>Tenshi.
>Not impressive.
>What the fuck am I reading?

Tanshi's old numbers used to be horribly broken. And even when they weren't, you never underestimate dual stuns.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 05:12:42 AM by Ran Yakumo »

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2012, 05:39:46 AM »
The old version of Tenshi is great, because you can stack strength. There was also that +60 strength item or something like that. So, the items and the skill made Tenshi dangerous.
However, since both that item(I believe it was called Tactitus or something like that) and Tenshi's skill was nerfed, the new version was unimpressive.

And yes, dual stuns are always nice, but the latter requires you to attack. With many superior choices, I do not see why you would think Tenshi is impressive.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2012, 05:53:34 AM »
When I say old Tenshi, I'm talking pre-Tacitus. Tacitus was stupid anyway when it was first released.
Post 977, I'm pretty sure that Tenshi was nerfed into oblivion, but I didn't see Tenshi in those versions very much so I don't really care.
Also, Tacitus was never nerfed as far as I remember.
But yes, Tenshi in every version before 977 was very powerful. Don't understand how you could call her unimpressive.
Also, you are clearly underestimating how stupid fissure is.

Now that I'm not trying to take lecture notes at the same time, to reiterate:
I didn't see much of Tenshi post 977, because I didn't play much post 977. Hence, I don't know much about post 977 Tenshi, but I am told that she was hit hard with the nerfhammer.
Before this, however, Tenshi was a very powerful hero. I fail to see how in any way her tankiness and stuns were unimpressive in any way.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 06:08:06 AM by Ran Yakumo »

Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2012, 07:02:03 AM »
I have never seen Tenshi pre-tacitus days, so I don't know how she works back then.

Let's take a hero in Dota as an example, since this hero plays similarly to Tenshi, one range stun, one AoE melee range stun. Earthshaker has 3 stuns, and would be unimpressive if there is no blink dagger. Which I believe DoTS does not have. In a team fight, Tenshi's ultimate is subpar, as it takes about 1 second to charge before it goes off, which means it can be interrupted if any player carries one of those things that turn you into Yukkuris or has some kind of stun/ministun.
Remember, the difference between Zeus' ultimate and Tenshi's ultimate is one has nearly no charge up time and the other does. Which is why I don't see the need for this talk about nerfing Tenshi's ultimate. Also, let's not forget heroes in DoTS have better skills than Dota heroes.

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Re: Defence of the Shrines, the Remaking
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2012, 07:25:49 AM »
I have never seen Tenshi pre-tacitus days, so I don't know how she works back then.
Exactly the same, but with different numbers.

Let's take a hero in Dota as an example, since this hero plays similarly to Tenshi, one range stun, one AoE melee range stun. Earthshaker has 3 stuns, and would be unimpressive if there is no blink dagger. Which I believe DoTS does not have.
You realize that Earthshaker is still a good hero without a blink dagger, right? Earthshaker simply becomes a great hero with a blink dagger.
However, the blink dagger difference is pretty much irrelevant due to the differences in how Earthshaker's ultimate ability works, which requires him to be in the middle of the enemy team to be fully effective.
Earthshaker's fissure remains devastating regardless of whether or not he has a blink dagger.

In a team fight, Tenshi's ultimate is subpar, as it takes about 1 second to charge before it goes off, which means it can be interrupted if any player carries one of those things that turn you into Yukkuris or has some kind of stun/ministun.
Tenshi's ultimate actually charges for 2 or 3 seconds IIRC.
If you're getting your ultimate interrupted as Tenshi, you're doing it wrong.
First of all, why the fuck would you use it in the middle of a team fight? Use it before for some weak initiate, or afterwards for cleanup.
If you do need it for burst in the middle of the fight, then you should be sitting the fuck back before using it.
If other people want to go out of their way to disable you to stop their ult, then you should be able to punish the fuck out of them for going out of position.

Remember, the difference between Zeus' ultimate and Tenshi's ultimate is one has nearly no charge up time and the other does. Which is why I don't see the need for this talk about nerfing Tenshi's ultimate. Also, let's not forget heroes in DoTS have better skills than Dota heroes.
There's no item like a pipe that can block the incoming damage, and magic resistance in general will not help against Tenshi's ultimate.
Also, if you're going to compare Zeus' ultimate to Tenshi's you forget that Zeus' ultimate costs 450 mana to cast at max level, and does much 460 magical damage (aka. much much less than Tanshi).