Touhou Accomplishments XVI - Not Faily Wars

[Buu]

I did the impossible: I died to Youkai Polygraph! Those needle bullets really like to fuck you over wherever possible with their questionable hit detection. :><:

On a lighter side, I managed to Lunatic 1cc SA again, after another rather long hiatus from the games. Orin fucked me over hard but I managed to keep it up and beat the game with three lives left over. ^^

[ARF]

MoF Extra with Ultra patch - without autobomb. Compared to that 3/0 life/bomb clear or whatever I managed back when I played with autobombing, I imagine this looks like shit, I'm trying for a safe clear to avoid frustration, took me around 20 tries in total, 6 which reached Suwako with satisfactory resources.

[Star King]

Only 38?! You lucky little jerk >:c

I'm lucky if it takes 200.

I still haven't done Unreasonable Butterfly Storm, actually.

Not a typo.

Aren't you guys Lunatics? Coming from someone who has only ever beaten Hard, it's really not that bad once you get used to it (I cleared it with all 12 shot-types).

[BT]

I'm certainly crazy and that card is unfair unfun bullshit. Ranks as one of the worst cards out there.

I think I might have 200 attempts down too, though last time I played it was months ago. I just don't feel like wasting my time on it and 100 other bad cards in IN.

[Buu]

Finally did i-i-i-i-it! SA Stage 3 Lunatic perfected!

Took me quite a few tries to figure out a good way to go around Yuugi's last non-spell but with persistence and a lot of luck (the part right before the boss battle, christ!), I finally did it. Whooo!

[Naut]

I'm certainly crazy and that [Unseasonable Butterfly Storm] is unfair unfun bullshit. Ranks as one of the worst cards out there.

How so?

[Chuckolator]

(the part right before the boss battle, christ!)

+1, before I managed to do it I had more than one run with only one death, during the laser spam. Congrats, it's always good to perfect a stage.

And about UBS, I managed to clear it in 4 tries before I had even 1cced Normal, by slowly going left the whole time IIRC. What are you guys doing?

[I have no name]

Wriggle's Last Word?
Totally not a hard card, just have a little faith in butterfly hitboxes.

Finally did i-i-i-i-it! SA Stage 3 Lunatic perfected!

Took me quite a few tries to figure out a good way to go around Yuugi's last non-spell but with persistence and a lot of luck (the part right before the boss battle, christ!), I finally did it. Whooo!

I guess now is a bad time to mention that I got Yuugi's last nonspell at 0 power in my 1cc  :V

[Buu]

Yeah, I had a lot of runs where I died only once throughout the stage, scattered around about pretty much everywhere though, worst case dying at her last non-spell. >.<

@Ihnn:  :getdown: :getdown: :getdown:

xD

[Esper]

I cleared it with all 12 shot-types

FUCK YOU.

Aren't you guys Lunatics?

In most respects, IN is more memory than dodging skill, unless you're going for a perfect. Besides that, I don't think I want to sit there for an hour hearing "pichuu~n!" and "DUHNUHNUHDUHNUHNUHDANANADANANADANANADANANA"

I say most respects because when it comes to things like perfects, Stage 4 and both Stages 6A and 6B, that requires skill but you can go off of memory and beat it just fine.

On the inside I consider Mountain of Faith my first Lunatic 1cc because it's less memory and more skill. Still needs memory but you need skill to accompany it.

[BT]

I can probably do it no sweat nowadays, but I found it unfair back then because focusing on the yellow/green/lightblue butterflies and their funky hitboxes was a bit too much when you're trying to survive bursts of butterflies that spawn essentially in an instant. The whole ultra-fast thing you have to do with those butterflies has always felt cheap, too.

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I had to go through a wall to do it.

It is a nightmare via sight-reading because you have to look up to read the fast waves but look down to read the yellow/green/blue waves. It forces memorization unless you're lucky / really good. Is that good enough a reason?

[Naut]

The fast curving butterflies are aimed.

[Buu]

Whee, I did it again! MoF Stage 5 Lunatic Perfect.

Now we're even, Sanae-chan~

[BT]

Yes, they are, but you can't stream them because of their weird curves and because of movements you have to do to dodge the other butterflies. The pattern essentially needs to be memorized or else you can't abuse their 'aimed' property.

[nintendonut888]

Unseasonable Butterfly Storm? It's certainly not easy, but it's far from impossible. Having not faced it in quite a while, I beat it in about 7 attempts, then caught it twice in a row.

My personal strategy is to start at the right corner and slowly move left as the curves come (note that I'm using border team). Once I reach the center, I am suuuuure to wiiiiin, I stay there for a few seconds, move left as usual, then break the pattern and move back right. By minimizing the amount of times you work against the curved bullets, you maximize your chance of survival. With this, the only variables are the butterfly bullets not in the curves.

[Star King]

Yes, they are, but you can't stream them because of their weird curves and because of movements you have to do to dodge the other butterflies. The pattern essentially needs to be memorized or else you can't abuse their 'aimed' property.

Actually you can stream them to the left (right doesn't really work as well). Just don't use as little movements as you normally would for streaming, because yeah they curve and stuff. You need to dash to the right in between walls eventually with most characters but often only once or twice (you don't even need to with Remilia, just set your familiars, go to the right side of the screen, and move to the left - solo Remilia took me the least tries at 4).

Also if you no-horizontal it the curved walls won't hit you at all and you can focus on the other bullets. Sometimes a bullet is spawned that is undodgable without horizontal movement, though, so it's a bit luck-based. I think I only did it for characters like solo Alice who need to stay under Wriggle because no range, or Youmu because it ends in like two waves.

[Byaaakuren]

Aren't you guys Lunatics? Coming from someone who has only ever beaten Hard, it's really not that bad once you get used to it (I cleared it with all 12 shot-types).

Indeeeeeed

Last Words aren't really that difficult. I've yet to clear a Lunatic yet I've cleared all of the Last Words. You just need a lot of patience.

Number of attempts before I captured each Last Word:
Unseasonal Butterfly Swarm 85
Blind Nightbird 16
Emperor of the East 26
Lunatic Red Eyes 31
Butterfly Capturing Web 8
Tree Ocean of Hourai 114
Phoenix Rebirth 27
Ancient Duper 3
Total Purification 30
Fantasy Heaven 300
Blazing Star 82
Deflation World 10
Satellite Slash 30
Grand Guignol 90
Scarlet Destiny 15
Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana 24
DBF 152

[Zengeku]

In most respects, IN is more memory than dodging skill, unless you're going for a perfect. Besides that, I don't think I want to sit there for an hour hearing "pichuu~n!"

The spell you are talking about isn't about memory. It's about dodging. If you aren't winning, dodge harder.

that requires skill but you can go off of memory and beat it just fine.

What does that even mean?

On the inside I consider Mountain of Faith my first Lunatic 1cc because it's less memory and more skill. Still needs memory but you need skill to accompany it.

As you do with basically everything else? Memory is useless if you don't have what it takes to pull of the stuff you're supposed to. Less static attacks sure but also a hell of a lot more bombs so IN might just require more skills than MoF.

It is a nightmare via sight-reading because you have to look up to read the fast waves but look down to read the yellow/green/blue waves. It forces memorization unless you're lucky / really good. Is that good enough a reason?

No. You shouldn't be relying on luck nor memorization but you don't have to be 'really good' either. You just need to develop the right approach - which is something that's hard to explain - and follow it.

[BT]

The 'right approach' is completely unnatural. You have to go out of your way to learn it. That is something I consider memorization.

[Zengeku]

The right approach is not that unnatural. As Naut pointed out, the curving butterflies are aimed at you so you can basically predict where they are going and move accordingly while paying attention to the location of the butterflies.

It's really just straight up dodging but in a different way than you are used to. No memo required. Unless you want to imply that thiscapture that I just made right now in five attempts is memorization. I haven't touched the card for over a year and I am quick to forget memorized stuff.

[BT]

To me the way the butterflies are aimed are unnatural enough to make the whole thing a crapshoot.

[Zengeku]

Alright. That's fair enough. Let's just not throw around statements such as this then;

I'm certainly crazy and that card is unfair unfun bullshit. Ranks as one of the worst cards out there.

Even if you are unable to handle it with your current skill set, you shouldn't call it a terrible card just because of that. There are plenty of attacks that completely overwhelm my abilities but that doesn't mean that the attacks are bad. That just means that I still got a long way to go and just need to accept that it's beyond me for now.

[BT]

I throw around plenty of statements but I'm actually pretty sound with that one.

I do not feel that the butterflies' movements are unnatural as a result of lack of skill. I have the same amount of trouble with them as I had half a year ago, and that's from when I was still clearing the extra stages. They are just so unnatural it makes you curse the moment you thought of playing the card every time you die to them. The arcs are confusing and, together with the small timeframe given to 'go right', it's near impossible to tell how much you're supposed to move and when. I can be completely focused on the task and do just as good as mashing a button and pray that I survive. You need to go out of your way to have perfect understanding of the movements to have any chance of ever being consistent at the card.

[Naut]

Well it's a damn good thing you get unlimited retries against the toughest cards in the game, eh? I don't see why the last words have the obligation to be easy to figure out or cater to your specific abilities (hell, they're just silly bonus cards anyway). The card is different, it's nowhere near impossible and even has tricks to learn so that people can tackle it even if they can't read it on the fly. "Unfair..."

[Buu]

Unseasonable Butterfly Storm isn't any worse than all the other cards IN is throwing at the player, if you ask me. Having a perfect understanding of the card is kinda required at a lot of spells. It requires quick reaction skills and after playing it a few times, most of it should be clear. I don't mean to brag but even I managed to capture it in ~30 tries for the first time, and that was in my pre-hard clear days (on the other hand there are Last Words I can't wrap my head around while others seem to be able to clear them just fine, to compensate haha). In any case, they're Last Words and meant to be hard. It's far from unfair, compared to stuff like Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana but I don't wanna start a rant here.

Gotta keep your eyes at the middle of the screen throughout the entire spell so you can read the bullets ahead before they hit you.

[BT]

Apparently the root of the argument is that we have different definitions for 'unfair'. I find patterns unfair if they punish someone for trying to read them and promote learning them like some kind of automated machine instead -- these are shmups, not puzzle games. The more the pattern forces you to 'learn' it, the higher your skill level has to be in order to read it on the fly. You need to be stupid good to be consistent at UBS with reading alone (ergo, without a touch of luck involved). That to me is an indication of an unfair pattern.

[Zengeku]

You need to be stupid good to be consistent at UBS with reading alone (ergo, without a touch of luck involved). That to me is an indication of an unfair pattern.

First of all, it's irrelevant whether people can capture it consistently. It's a bloody last word. You are not supposed to capture it consistently. It's supposed to be an extra challenge. That's what they are there for. IN is pretty weak on the challenge department (unless you are scoring) so having bonus cards like these, for those who desire something beyond the average Touhou Lunatic, is an excellent addition.

Secondly, what is your definition of stupid good then? Do you view your own skills as the natural amount of skill that you can expect people to amass and anyone who's got more is just stupid good?

Third. I tested this myself and on 10 attempts I managed to clear 6 times. I am in other words not exactly consistent at it but if I were then there'd be not much exciting about it. If I could consistently capture every pattern in STG history then there wouldn't be much purpose for me to play them. Not from a survival perspective.

[ふねん1]

So then BT, what about all those shooting games out there that are all or mostly about memo attacks? Are they inherently unfair by your reasoning?

Memorization-based attacks, be they completely static or rooted in aiming, are a longtime staple of shooting games. To say that memo attacks do not fit into these games is just plain incorrect. The kind of problem solving aspect these attacks bring to the table is really no different than, say, figuring out how a platformer boss' attacks work, where you go "Okay, that method didn't work, let me try something else next time". There's nothing "unfair" about this kind of challenge, as far as I'm concerned.

And I have to disagree with the "automated machine" comparison. If you figure out an attack, practice it some, and then start becoming that mindless in subsequent attempts, you arguably leave yourself more open to messing up at inopportune times. Muscle memory is powerful, but not foolproof. If you ask me, being able to recognize what you're doing as you're doing it and not have it affect your game (essentially, overcoming the "centipede's dilemma") is what allows you to become truly consistent at something.

[cactu]

I reached Shou's 2nd nonspell on a LNBNUFO run, so that's some sort of an accomplishment for me.

[Erppo]

I find patterns unfair if they punish someone for trying to read them and promote learning them like some kind of automated machine instead -- these are shmups, not puzzle games.

Shmups are games where you confront a series of scripted obstacles and your task is to find the optimal way to overcome those. How can that not "promote learning"?