Touhou Project 12.5 - ダブルスポイラー ~ Double Spoiler. A spoiling article, ayaya

[Tengukami]

Heh. That reminds me of reading the Azumanga Daioh manga for the first time. Osaka talks like she's a guido, tossing around frequent "fuggedaboutits" and such. I've since been told that Osaka - the city - is more analgous to Dallas. Which is funny, since the Azumanga Daioh manga I read were translated by ADV - headquartered in Houston, Texas.

[Firestorm29]

The thing I don't get about the wiki problem is, can't you pull the plug on the guy if he's doing something everyone else agrees is excessive and unneeded?

[N-Forza]

I made a comment asking him to tone it down.

I never said I was trying to give false or bad translations. I simply want to reflect her unique way of talking in an interesting way. I'm sorry if I was being difficult, but generally (not always, yeah I know) the people who complain about that kind of stuff are the ones who insist on "nakama" in their One Piece scanslations and ridiculous translator notes in subbed anime, and this cold already has me in a bad mood.

And Nobu, Lucarius made that comment going by her dialogue with Aya, in which she does speak in more normal manner.

[Alice Fact]

but generally (not always, yeah I know) the people who complain about that kind of stuff are the ones who insist on "nakama" in their One Piece scanslations and ridiculous translator notes in subbed anime

that's sad, the situations seem to conflict with each other

[Nobu]

I made a comment asking him to tone it down.

I never said I was trying to give false or bad translations. I simply want to reflect her unique way of talking in an interesting way. I'm sorry if I was being difficult, but generally (not always, yeah I know) the people who complain about that kind of stuff are the ones who insist on "nakama" in their One Piece scanslations and ridiculous translator notes in subbed anime, and this cold already has me in a bad mood.

Thank you. I understand, no hard feelings. ;p Sorry if it seemed like I was accusing you of trying to give false or bad translations.

And Nobu, Lucarius made that comment going by her dialogue with Aya, in which she does speak in more normal manner.

You sure? I thought he was just commenting on the speech in general. Ah, either way.

[Lucarius]

You sure? I thought he was just commenting on the speech in general. Ah, either way.

Reading a few of them, yeah, I see where the likes and totallys came from, though I don't know exactly how abundant they were before.

"Like" and "totally" don't quite fit with the dialogue style I'm getting from the original text, but I can't think of anything better either. Based on placement, I guess "totally" doesn't sound bad, but I wish I could do something about using ", like," because it's too annoying for the way she actually sounds.

Well, now that I know what you all were talking about, I had nothing to say in the first place~
I was quite stupid for joining a discussion I knew nothing about.

これね。

And Nobu, Lucarius made that comment going by her dialogue with Aya, in which she does speak in more normal manner.

後これも。

（゜∀゜）ﾉｼ


追記：やっぱ断然英語より日本語だわ～♪　また今度来た時は日本語だけで話したいな。

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

the problem here is that the opinion that "this sounds better" is trying to beat "this is correct" and for whatever reason the former is somehow winning, by referring to the latter as "weirdos" or simply saying "this is getting silly"

Does it change the actual meaning of the line greatly? If yes, it's bad. If no, then it's just sane localization. Christ, literal translation reads terribly stiltedly. Part of a good localization effort involves, y'know, localizing the script.

If you're pissed off about it, then go learn the relevant language itsself instead of bitching about how translations will slightly change some meanings around because the very act of translating something will cause a crapton of meaning to be lost: localizations attempt to compensate for this by substituting analogous concepts in the language that the script has been translated to, and thus in a sense can actually be considered more accurate than a simple direct translation.

mind you, there is a huge difference between replacing "shogun" with "emperor" or some such in a game that clearly does not look Japanese, and then assuming that a very Japanese character would ever speak like an American, whatsoever. THAT is common sense.

They're not Japanese characters, they're characters in a freaking fictional worldsetting in a video game. Huge difference. Even assuming they do speak Japanese, the Hakurei Barrier was raised in 1848, so modulo interference from Yukari, none of the characters will speak anything even close to modern Japanese even if they do speak something that was ultimately derived from pre-Meiji Restoration era Japanese.

Christ. This is honestly the most retarded argument I've seen in awhile. I'm honestly convinced some of you guys bitch about this sort of stuff just for the sake of bitching about it. Seriously.

[Nobu]

Does it change the actual meaning of the line greatly? If yes, it's bad. If no, then it's just sane localization. Christ, literal translation reads terribly stiltedly. Part of a good localization effort involves, y'know, localizing the script.

I agree with you, but the original argument (or at least the argument that I brought to the table and my reasons behind it) was that it was bad localization, and not to mention a pain to read. If you take a guy sounding like a Yakuza member and translate them to talk like a American mobster, that's perfectly reasonable. But if a translation makes the character sound like an idiot when they didn't sound like an idiot in the original, I consider that a bad translation. But I don't think your wrath was directed at me per se.

[Furienify]

Having some experience with this- I agree with Alice, here. You have to preserve the meaning of the translation. To some extent it also helps to make sure everything appeals to your viewers, as well. The M-1 is full of totally random cultural references I'd never understand, so there's TL notes all over the place. Plus you have to replicate things that Japanese viewers would likely notice (dialect differences) that your English listeners would have no idea about.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

I agree with you, but the original argument (or at least the argument that I brought to the table and my reasons behind it) was that it was bad localization, and not to mention a pain to read. If you take a guy sounding like a Yakuza member and translate them to talk like a American mobster, that's perfectly reasonable. But if a translation makes the character sound like an idiot when they didn't sound like an idiot in the original, I consider that a bad translation. But I don't think your wrath was directed at me per se.

Actually, having talked to multiple people who know Japanese about this, one of which used to be a professional translator for a good while, translating Nagoya-teenager dialect as Valley Girl dialect not only works well, but in fact scarily well.

Incidentally, if you find the localization that annoying to read as you stated above, then a regular expression that took me literally all of Ten Seconds to write takes care of the readability/annoyance issues.

And no, my rant above was not directed at you specifically, no. Just starting to get tired of the shocking amounts of fandumb that the Touhou Fandom has been exhibiting lately, and for no good reason at that.

[Be Pok U (1998 burst style)]

I thought it was already established that the whole valley girl persona is an overreaching presumption?  :ohdear:

Or are we still trying to decide if Hatate is either:
A. Stupid, and therefore inferior to Aya.
B. Intelligent in equal standing with Aya.
?  :V :V

Edit: you can run unix expressions through wikia?!?!

[Kilgamayan]

We have decided that Hatate is flatter and is therefore inferior to Aya.

[Nobu]

Actually, having talked to multiple people who know Japanese about this, one of which used to be a professional translator for a good while, translating Nagoya-teenager dialect as Valley Girl dialect not only works well, but in fact scarily well.

However, that's assuming she's even talking in Nagoya-teenager dialect, which judging from my own inspection of the dialog plus judging from the comments Lucarius made, she doesn't.

[Lucarius]

Actually, having talked to multiple people who know Japanese about this, one of which used to be a professional translator for a good while, translating Nagoya-teenager dialect as Valley Girl dialect not only works well, but in fact scarily well.

Reading through level 1 and level 2 spellcards, I can assure you she doesn't speak in a Nagoya-teenager dialect, or any unique regional dialect for that matter. If you were to forcibly put a dialect on this, it would be Tokyo-Kanagawa dialect (which originates to Toka dialect). In fact, Japanese people may often react to the phrase ending じゃん with "Oh you must be from Tokyo."

I, as a Japanese person who has been to Nagoya and knows many regional dialects and what not, must say that Valley Girl as I know it would not be a substitute for Nagoya dialect. However, if, by the term Nagoya"-teenager" dialect, you mean something related to ギャル語, then yeah I guess so. However again, Valley Girl makes a good substitute for any light-to-heavy ギャル語 regardless of what region of Japan it comes from.

Reading through level 1 and level 2 spellcards, yes, some parts of the text have some スイーツ（笑） to light ギャル語 type of text. Therefore, some ", like"s and "totally"s are in order.

However, putting up a few examples, I don't think these are good uses of this translational method imo.
記事のネタが欲しかったから協力して貰おうかなー。 Maybe I'll just, like, take one to give myself some more material.
実際にネタを集めに出ようと思うの  I think I'll, like, go out to gather material.
文こそ息が上がってきたんじゃないの？ Don't you, like, need to catch your breath yourself?

etc. I find many more to be needless in terms of accurate translation. It's not really about the literal translation I'm concerned about. More so the level of annoyance I feel from the original versus the translation. Holding up a character's image is based not so much on the translated text, but more so on how the text is recited in the reader's mind. Therefore, I don't believe that the ", likes" and "totallys" that don't appear in the given text in anyway is necessary.

If translators think かなー, 思うの, and こそ→の？ or whatever else they found in the text or its surroundings is enough to add that ", like" in the very few examples I put up, I would go tell them to imagine they're translating lines by Kagami or Tsukasa  from Lucky Star (characters who speak the same kind of text (same words, same dialect) but with completely different tonalities and feels). Yeah, they're not Hatate, but if they were good translators, they would know what I mean (too hard to explain in words).

Aw man, half of me really regrets jumping in on this thread.

[Tengukami]

I've already decided that Hatate gives Aya the competition necessary to maintain journalistic integrity. Aya is all about chasing the scoop, printing the hottest stories, getting issues in readers' hands. Hatate, by contrast, is all about research, fact checking and investigation. Ideally, they would combine powers to release factual, well-researched, topical and exciting stories, but this sort of competition is good for Gensokyo's news readers, and good for journalism.

[Pesco]

Whoever actually makes the English patch has the final say. Good day to you fellas.

[Recon 5]

I've already decided that Hatate gives Aya the competition necessary to maintain journalistic integrity.

She won't

Spoiler:

unless she goes out and starts incidents herself like she found Aya doing, then it'll be her turn to be stomped by Reimu/Marisa/Sanae

. She's apparently been competing against Aya for quite a while and look at Bunbunmaru's modus operandi today.

[Tengukami]

Hatate is exposing Aya's practices, and already has a penchant for research. She is Aya's countebalance. Until now, Hatate has been lower down on Bunbunmaru's tier, but now she's coming up. This can only be good for Aya, keeping her on her toes. And good for news in Gensokyo.

[Barrakketh]

This can only be good for Aya

I don't see it that way.  If anything Hatate has informed us that Aya's ways haven't changed, and we all know what that means:

If the sins of events you've caused are
included with your own sins,
you will most likely fall to hell.

Spoiler:

DOOOOOMED!

[Tengukami]

Ha, maybe. But now that Aya -has- been exposed, and has some professional competition, she'll need to step up her game.

Of course much of what I'm saying is just me thinking a plotline outloud for a new fic, so ...

[Pesco]

professional competition

Ahahahaha :V

[Tengukami]

'Professional' in the sense of within the profession, naturally. OTOH, much of what we know about Gensokyo's denizens comes from Aya's reporting. She gets props for that much, anyway.

[Nobu]

Reading through level 1 and level 2 spellcards, I can assure you she doesn't speak in a Nagoya-teenager dialect, or any unique regional dialect for that matter.

I, as a Japanese person who has been to Nagoya and knows many regional dialects and what not, must say that Valley Girl as I know it would not be a substitute for Nagoya dialect. However, if, by the term Nagoya"-teenager" dialect, you mean something related to ギャル語, then yeah I guess so. However again, Valley Girl makes a good substitute for any light-to-heavy ギャル語 regardless of what region of Japan it comes from.

Reading through level 1 and level 2 spellcards, yes, some parts of the text have some スイーツ（笑） to light ギャル語 type of text. Therefore, some ", like"s and "totally"s are in order.

However, putting up a few examples, I don't think these are good uses of this translational method imo.
記事のネタが欲しかったから協力して貰おうかなー。 Maybe I'll just, like, take one to give myself some more material.
実際にネタを集めに出ようと思うの  I think I'll, like, go out to gather material.
文こそ息が上がってきたんじゃないの？ Don't you, like, need to catch your breath yourself?

etc. I find many more to be needless in terms of accurate translation. It's not really about the literal translation I'm concerned about. More so the level of annoyance I feel from the original versus the translation. Holding up a character's image is based not so much on the translated text, but more so on how the text is recited in the reader's mind. Therefore, I don't believe that the ", likes" and "totallys" that don't appear in the given text in anyway is necessary.

If translators think かなー, 思うの, and こそ→の？ or whatever else they found in the text or its surroundings is enough to add that ", like" in the very few examples I put up, I would go tell them to imagine they're translating lines by Kagami or Tsukasa  from Lucky Star (characters who speak the same kind of text (same words, same dialect) but with completely different tonalities and feels). Yeah, they're not Hatate, but if they were good translators, they would know what I mean (too hard to explain in words).

QFT. Thank you.

Aw man, half of me really regrets jumping in on this thread.

ゴメン　m(_ _)m

[Recon 5]

me thinking a plotline outloud for a new fic, so ...

... so GET WRITING ALREADY.

Spoiler:

On another note, Aya's comment on Tengu Psychography indicates that ZUN pushed his Big Red Reset Button on Hatate as well. Like it or not, seems that we're back to the status quo.

[Tengukami]

As soon as I post the CYOA piece about being gapped into Gensokyo and having, as a mission, to get an invite to Kaguya's court, I'll hit the Aya v. Hatate piece. The former gets posted this weekend, so the latter should be a few days after that.

[Lucarius]

ゴメン　m(_ _)m

I didn't say, aw man half of me regrets being forced into this thread by Nobu, so you're not at fault.
If I said so, I would be wrong, so you're not at fault.

って事で、頭下げないでくださいな。

Actually, having talked to multiple people who know Japanese about this, one of which used to be a professional translator for a good while, translating Nagoya-teenager dialect as Valley Girl dialect not only works well, but in fact scarily well.

I would like to talk to this professional translator. I'm becoming interested in why this person would say that.

Incidentally, if you find the localization that annoying to read as you stated above, then a regular expression that took me literally all of Ten Seconds to write takes care of the readability/annoyance issues.

I believe the problem here is whether the "official" translation is accurate or not. Those that don't know Japanese and haven't been a part of this discussion will believe Hatate speaks in more of a haughty and annoying manner than what the original text implies, precisely because "it says so on the wiki." Surely, you can go tell them to learn the original language etc., but that truly defeats the purpose of publicly translating the text in the first place.

Just starting to get tired of the shocking amounts of fandumb that the Touhou Fandom has been exhibiting lately, and for no good reason at that.

I believe translational accuracy is a major issue for the Western fandom. As a former Touhou fan who is currently more interested in ZUN's ideology exhibited in his works than the entirety of Touhou itself, I would like to assert the importance of getting an accurate translation across to those who can't read Japanese.

[Tengukami]

In any order, for those who have been having issues with getting custom.exe to run (i.e. it wasn't opening at all when you tried to open it), here's a patched copy.

If I could jump into this ... whatever this is now ... to interrupt for a moment, I just wanted to thank Alice for this. This worked just fine for me. Much appreciated.

[Recon 5]

has been exhibiting lately

Uh... I was under the impression that all this happens with every game, so why 'lately'?

[lumber_of_the_beast]

If I could jump into this ... whatever this is now ... to interrupt for a moment, I just wanted to thank Alice for this. This worked just fine for me. Much appreciated.

It's not working for me, and I can't delete it.

[ebarrett]

It's not working for me, and I can't delete it.

rename it.