Touhou lagging on new pc

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Hello,
I just bought a new pc, installed Windows 7 Ultimate, and am trying to run the pc98 Touhous on it, and they are very laggy. Its very noticeable, the bullets are very jittery. They weren't like this on my older laptop, and this pc is far more powerful, so what gives? I tried all 3 emulators, but no luck I used to use Anex86 before on my older laptop and never had any trouble, but even Anex isn't helping here. Any help please?

[shockdude]

What are the models & specs of your current PC and your older laptop? (CPU and GPU)

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Hello Shockdude, thank you for your assistance.

My new pc has i7-4790, GTX-980Ti, 32GB RAM, 1 SSD, 2 HDDs.

The old laptop is an Acer Extensa 5630EZ. It has a dual core processor 2GHz, Onboard GPU Mobile Intel GL40 Express, 2GB RAM, 1 HDD.

I don't get how my new pc is making the games choppy, when my old laptop which is much lower spec had no problems. :/

I tried out Touhou 7 and Seihou 1 also. Touhou 7 has a slight lag, but bearable although wouldn't enjoy playing the game that way. Seihou is almost unplayable.

Is it something from my graphic card? I tried re-installing it again, and tampered around with V-sync in the Nvidia Control Panel, but not much improvement.

Thank you for any help. I really appreciate it

[shockdude]

Hello Shockdude, thank you for your assistance.

My new pc has i7-4790, GTX-980Ti, 32GB RAM, 1 SSD, 2 HDDs.

The old laptop is an Acer Extensa 5630EZ. It has a dual core processor 2GHz, Onboard GPU Mobile Intel GL40 Express, 2GB RAM, 1 HDD.

I don't get how my new pc is making the games choppy, when my old laptop which is much lower spec had no problems. :/

I tried out Touhou 7 and Seihou 1 also. Touhou 7 has a slight lag, but bearable although wouldn't enjoy playing the game that way. Seihou is almost unplayable.

Is it something from my graphic card? I tried re-installing it again, and tampered around with V-sync in the Nvidia Control Panel, but not much improvement.

Thank you for any help. I really appreciate it

Not a problem. That's quite a PC you got, very nice.

Spoiler:

Out of curiosity, why Windows 7 instead of Windows 10?

Leave the Nvidia VSync settings to default.

For PCB, what is the "slight lag" that you describe? Input delay, or stutter? What does the FPS counter in the lower-right say? Also, have you tried both fullscreen and windowed?

You don't have a GSync monitor, do you? What's the current refresh rate of your monitor? 60Hz is recommended for Touhou.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Thank you I Bought it that powerful to be able to record my gameplay as well. Hopefully my specs are enough. (I never recorded before so I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject). So far its been nothing but stressful though! No point in having a beast if you can't play your favorite games on it!

I had read that Windows 10 doesn't support all the Touhous, and to get all the Seihous to work correctly might be an issue on it. Didn't want to take any chances so I went with 7 since they say all Touhous work on it. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of these statements.

For PCB the lag I feel is input delay. Hopefully the V-sync patch could fix that? For the PC-98 Touhous and Seihou the problem is stutter.  PCB FPS stays above 59 all the time, most of the time at a constant 59.95. Yes I tried both, Windowed seems to be better, although still not 100% responsive as I remember it. Would prefer full screen though, windowed is very small to play on, and I play no bombs so can't afford any clip deaths because of a small screen/window! Windowed would ruin the experience

No, no g-sync, just a standard LCD 46" tv (not monitor). Refresh rate is 100 Hz. I have the tv set to PC mode to reduce input lag, and am connected with a VGA to DVI adapter. (I tried HDMI but the colors were really out of place on the PC98 Touhous and Seihou). With my old laptop I used to be connected by VGA to VGA in case it's important to point out.

Thank you once again for any help and for looking into this I know it's taking up your time as well.

[shockdude]

Thank you I Bought it that powerful to be able to record my gameplay as well. Hopefully my specs are enough. (I never recorded before so I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject). So far its been nothing but stressful though! No point in having a beast if you can't play your favorite games on it!

You'll definitely be able to record gameplay and much more once everything gets settled.

I had read that Windows 10 doesn't support all the Touhous, and to get all the Seihous to work correctly might be an issue on it. Didn't want to take any chances so I went with 7 since they say all Touhous work on it. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of these statements.

Fair enough, Windows 10 does have compatibility issues with some Touhou games out of the box.
There is a fix available for Touhou games on Windows 10, but I have no idea if it works with Seihou, and I don't know anything about PC-98 emulation.

For PCB the lag I feel is input delay. Hopefully the V-sync patch could fix that? For the PC-98 Touhous and Seihou the problem is stutter.  PCB FPS stays above 59 all the time, most of the time at a constant 59.95. Yes I tried both, Windowed seems to be better, although still not 100% responsive as I remember it. Would prefer full screen though, windowed is very small to play on, and I play no bombs so can't afford any clip deaths because of a small screen/window! Windowed would ruin the experience

No, no g-sync, just a standard LCD 46" tv (not monitor). Refresh rate is 100 Hz. I have the tv set to PC mode to reduce input lag, and am connected with a VGA to DVI adapter. (I tried HDMI but the colors were really out of place on the PC98 Touhous and Seihou). With my old laptop I used to be connected by VGA to VGA in case it's important to point out.

PCB is infamous for its huge input delay. Set up the VSync patch asap.
59.95FPS is ok, but it should be a perfect 60.00FPS. This tells me your computer is outputting 59.94Hz (TV standard) instead of 60Hz (computer monitor standard). While 59.94Hz isn't bad, there should be a way to force it to 60Hz.
See: http://www.vsynctester.com/. On my monitor, it's 60.000Hz.

What is the Seihou/PC-98 stutter like? Full speed with occasional skips? How frequent are the stutters?

What resolution is your HDTV, 1080p?
Edit: While you're at it, what model TV do you have? If possible, can you post an image of your picture settings?

You should be using an HDMI cable. The colors should not be out of place, there's something off in your config.
Connect the HDMI cable to the TV and set the TV to PC mode. Can you post screenshots of the Nvidia Control Panel's screen resolution and color settings? Feel free to post other relevant screenshots.

Thank you once again for any help and for looking into this I know it's taking up your time as well.

Not a problem.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Hello Shockdude,
got some good news! After LOADS of research, I found that my Realtek audio driver was messing with the audio drivers, so I formatted my OS and did a clean install and didn't install the Realtek audio drivers this time (using the ones which Windows Update installed automatically instead), and it is much better! Seihou is perfect, no lag/stutter whatsoever! The PC98 games still have some stutter though, but much better than they were Still not 100% happy with them though.

Glad to hear the pc is powerful enough to be able to record once this headache is over :)Can't wait!!

Yes I have the Windows tool you linked me to, but it says it only has support up to Touhou 9.5. Worried to go onto Windows 10 in case it doesn't support Touhou 10,11,12 etc.

I ran the Vsync tester you told me, its showing 60 Hz. I attached a screenshot.

Well after the new install, Seihou's lag left now, but it was similar to the PC98 one I'm experiencing now but worse. No, its not full speed with stutters, its like the bullets are coming down in steps rather than a fluid motion like usual. Happens like every second.

My TV is 1920x1080p, but I'm set at 1360, text is too small to read when set at full 1920. Model is a Samsung LE46A656A1FXXC. Picture settings are mostly greyed out (so I can't change them) since I'm on PC Mode. But these are what there is:
Mode: Dynamic
Backlight: 7
Contrast: 100
Brightness: 45
Sharpness: 50 (greyed out)
Colour Tone: Normal
Size: 16:9
Screen Mode: 16:9 (greyed out)
Digital NR: Auto (greyed out)
DNIe: Off (greyed out)
HDMI Black Level: Normal (greyed out)
100Hz Motion Plus: Off (greyed out)

I attached my Nvidia Control Panel settings.

When I tried with HDMI, the colours really blended into each other to the point where it was looking messy, example in Seihou's title screen, Vivit's hair looked like a clump of bright red and the slight black lines in her hair don't show because the red is all over them. Also, for some reason when in HDMI I was losing parts of the top, bottom, and sides from Seihou. Other Touhou games weren't affected though, but the colours still looked really ugly. I don't mind keeping it in VGA/DVI. Can't play Seihou with half of Vivit missing! I lost about an inch and a half from all sides of the screen!

Thanks once again. Sorry for the long post! :/

[shockdude]

Hello Shockdude,
got some good news! After LOADS of research, I found that my Realtek audio driver was messing with the audio drivers, so I formatted my OS and did a clean install and didn't install the Realtek audio drivers this time (using the ones which Windows Update installed automatically instead), and it is much better! Seihou is perfect, no lag/stutter whatsoever! The PC98 games still have some stutter though, but much better than they were Still not 100% happy with them though.

Glad to hear the pc is powerful enough to be able to record once this headache is over :)Can't wait!!

Awesome. Enjoy your games!

Yes I have the Windows tool you linked me to, but it says it only has support up to Touhou 9.5. Worried to go onto Windows 10 in case it doesn't support Touhou 10,11,12 etc.

Everything Touhou 10 and later works fine on Windows 10. But nbd.

I ran the Vsync tester you told me, its showing 60 Hz. I attached a screenshot.

Yep that's 60Hz, but that's at 768p. At 480p, the games are likely running at 59.94Hz. It's honestly not a big deal, and it won't be the cause of the stutter.

Well after the new install, Seihou's lag left now, but it was similar to the PC98 one I'm experiencing now but worse. No, its not full speed with stutters, its like the bullets are coming down in steps rather than a fluid motion like usual. Happens like every second.

By "full speed" I mean if the game itself isn't running slowly; the time to beat stage 1 is unchanged despite the stutter.
Still, that's really odd. This is in both fullscreen and windowed? What PC-98 emulator are you using?

My TV is 1920x1080p, but I'm set at 1360, text is too small to read when set at full 1920. Model is a Samsung LE46A656A1FXXC. Picture settings are mostly greyed out (so I can't change them) since I'm on PC Mode. But these are what there is:
Mode: Dynamic
Backlight: 7
Contrast: 100
Brightness: 45
Sharpness: 50 (greyed out)
Colour Tone: Normal
Size: 16:9
Screen Mode: 16:9 (greyed out)
Digital NR: Auto (greyed out)
DNIe: Off (greyed out)
HDMI Black Level: Normal (greyed out)
100Hz Motion Plus: Off (greyed out)

This is a personal opinion, but please change that to Standard. I bet you aren't able to see every distinct color in this test image if you don't. All other TV settings look good, but you can adjust the backlight to taste.

I attached my Nvidia Control Panel settings.

When I tried with HDMI, the colours really blended into each other to the point where it was looking messy, example in Seihou's title screen, Vivit's hair looked like a clump of bright red and the slight black lines in her hair don't show because the red is all over them. Also, for some reason when in HDMI I was losing parts of the top, bottom, and sides from Seihou. Other Touhou games weren't affected though, but the colours still looked really ugly. I don't mind keeping it in VGA/DVI. Can't play Seihou with half of Vivit missing! I lost about an inch and a half from all sides of the screen!

The reason I suggest HDMI is for input lag and image quality reasons. The color issues and cropped screen is a misconfig which can be easily fixed in your TV settings and in the Nvidia Control Panel, if you wish.
While I highly recommend doing this, it's also probably not related to the PC-98 stutter.

Edit: I just realized: by using HDMI you bypass Realtek audio completely. This may actually fix your issue.
There's likely a special HDMI port on your TV labeled "PC." Connect the HDMI cable to that specific port, then change the port to PC mode. In your TV settings, change Screen Mode until the image is no longer cropped, and change HDMI Black Level to Normal. Done.

Thanks once again. Sorry for the long post! :/

Again, not a problem.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Hello again Shockdude,
once again I have good news. My problem is fixed!!! After that format and clean install its like a miracle came over the pc! I updated all my other drivers except for the graphic card (left it with the driver from Windows Update), and did not install the Realtek driver. All the PC98 games are working fine now, except on Anex86. They were perfect on T98 and Neko though!

Yes thankfully I can start enjoying this new pc now Now just to experiment with recording programs and see which one suits my liking. I need something 1080p 60fps. Was thinking about OBS. . . I hear good things about that one. Any opinions?

That's awesome, didn't know that about Windows 10! Thanks for the insight!

The time to beat the stage would have been the same, but a I said the bullets were coming down in steps, so it didn't feel fluid at all and deters from the overall experience/enjoyment of the game! Yes it was doing it in both Full and Windowed, although more noticeable in Full. (but that could be cuz the screen is bigger, so its easier to notice)

You are right, the difference in colours does show more when in Standard as opposed to Dynamic! Whats the point to Dynamic then?

HDMI has less input lag than VGA or the other way round, since VGA is a native source? I'll have to experiment with the HDMI more, especially now that the games are working, but before switching over to VGA, I tried all the different screen options/sizes, and none of them fit Seihou into the screen correctly. Windows and all the other games were fine, but Seihou had the sides cropped for some reason :/ So its a problem specific to Seihou over HDMI, not my whole display that needs cropping.

I know I thanked you in every post, but just would like to thank you once again. Lots of your time went into this, over these past 2 days, and I really appreciate the help and support. Keeping the Touhou community strong!!

[shockdude]

Glad to hear everything worked out!

IIRC OBS works pretty well, but if you want to record fullscreen on older Windows Touhou games then you might need to set up the DX8 to DX9 converter, even on Windows 10.

If you plan to play PC games other than Touhou, then you should update the graphics driver to the latest version. Otherwise, the Windows Update driver should be ok.

The Dynamic Mode of HDTVs make TVs look "brighter", at the cost of color accuracy and usually entire colors. It helps TV manufacturers sell TVs in brightly-lit showrooms, and is awful in nearly all other cases.

HDMI should have less input lag than VGA. Everything is digital these days; the DVI to VGA adapter converts digital video to analog video, and the TV reconverts it back to digital. With HDMI, everything is digital with no conversion.

It's odd that only Seihou gets cropped over HDMI. Have you checked all the screen size options with Seihou running? One of your TV remote buttons should be an "INFO" button that tells you what resolution is currently being used; what resolution is Seihou using?

Happy to help, thanks.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Thank you for your good wishes

I'll experiment around with some recording programs, thanks for informing me about needing to set up DX8 to DX9 for recording some of the older Windows Touhous.

Haha no, all I play is Touhou seriously, I live for that game, completely obsessed by it, such a beautiful world. Since I discovered it, it's all I do. Been 2 years and a half now just dedicating my life to it lol. Trying to no bomb Lunatic with every character for every game, then clear the ultras, and a plethora of fan games, got enough to keep me busy for a lifetime haha

Oh ok, didn't know that about Dynamic mode, thought it had something to do with the dynamic contrast so stuff blurs less. So, apart from this pc, I have a laptop connected by HDMI just to watch anime off of, should I switch my mode from Dynamic to Standard for this one also?

I'll definitely experiment with the HDMI again tonight after work. Yes I tried out all the different options for sizes that the tv offers, none gives a perfect fit (with VGA its fitting perfectly). Yes very weird about the Seihou crop, especially since I don't think its from the TV's side, but from the pc when seeing it connected with HDMI. You know how the gameplay screen in Seihou is in the centre of the screen, then has 2 huge black borders on the sides, the text for where Left (Lives) and Bombs is also cut quite a bit, not letting you see the number of lives and bombs properly. This is weird because its like the pc is adjusting to crop even the gameplay screen, and not just fit the whole picture with the black borders. To try explaining better and be clearer: When on the title screen, the picture is full screen, but part of the picture is cropped from the sides, like out of the tv borders/screen. When in game then, its like the picture is getting cropped from the game's black borders, not the tv. Like, if its meant to say bombs or lives are at 2, the 2 has most of it cut out! This is weird when then there's like 10" of black borders on both sides!

I'll have to check the resolution with the INFO button when I get home. I'll update later tonight!

Thanks once again, you've been beyond helpful. Take care

[Lunatic_Reimu]

I played around with the HDMI and it really makes my games look washed out. I think I'll stick to DVI. My tv doesn't have DVI though, can I use a HDMI to DVI cable? Will that give me the same washed out look the HDMI does, or the clear picture the DVI port is providing?

Update for Seihou: I tried it out again on HDMI, it's still cropped, the colours look really washed out and white-ish. I tried all the tv size settings, it just won't fit. I pressed the INFO button, its saying 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz.

[shockdude]

I played around with the HDMI and it really makes my games look washed out. I think I'll stick to DVI. My tv doesn't have DVI though, can I use a HDMI to DVI cable? Will that give me the same washed out look the HDMI does, or the clear picture the DVI port is providing?

Update for Seihou: I tried it out again on HDMI, it's still cropped, the colours look really washed out and white-ish. I tried all the tv size settings, it just won't fit. I pressed the INFO button, its saying 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz.

DVI and HDMI are identical, except HDMI also carries audio (digital audio = high quality) and has a differently shaped port. I'd stick with HDMI if possible.
Washed out colors = misconfig on your computer's end. I'm assuming you set the TV's Black Level to Normal. There should be a Nvidia Control Panel setting somewhere to change the color to "Full Range". Copy the settings in the picture below.

Once again use the Lagom.nl contrast page to make sure the colors are correct.

No idea why Seihou is cropped. It's running at the correct 640x480, which is weird.
Are you sure none of the other Touhou games are cropped? What does the INFO button say with them?
In the TV settings, you've tried both the "16:9" and "Screen Fit" settings? Is the TV still in PC mode when running Seihou?

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

I tried all the tv size settings, it just won't fit. I pressed the INFO button, its saying 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz.

Make sure to set the TV to disable panel fitting or similar. A 640x480 signal has a 4:3 ratio and your TV has a 16:9 ratio. Stretching it to fit the entire screen is generally never a good thing to do, so see if there's an option to maintain the original aspect ratio. With the TV turned on and set to the proper input, look in the nvidia driver settings panel, see if there's any scaling options, and set it to do scaling on the graphics card while maintaining the original aspect ratio. The reason for this is that the graphics card does scaling much faster than the TV, and unless you're running a game at 1920x1080 scaling will have to happen.

As for HDMI vs DVI, what shockdude said is pretty much it. As for VGA, you shouldn't be using it unless you're using a CRT monitor for your display or have no other options, as it's an analog standard that results in noticrable display latency when used with digital flat panel monitors and TVs.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Hello again,
@Shockdude: so I experimented around with HDMI A LOT today, and sad to say, it isn't working right. The colours look really washed up in Seihou and the PC98 games, even after setting the colours to Full from Limited. They don't look as bad on Touhou 7 and 8, but not as good as with the VGA/DVI adapter. Also for some reason there was a horrible input lag. It got much better when I turned V-Sync off, but then was getting screen tearing. . . I don't know why it's having an issue with the games. My desktop and everything else looks fine :/

I managed to make Seihou fit, although not as full screen. I went in the Nvidia Control Panel -> Adjust desktop size and position, and set it to no scaling. This made my whole output much smaller than what it usually is, but when I went into Seihou it was all fitting in the screen at least. Too small to actually play on though.

Currently I'm hooked up with the VGA to DVI adapter, with V-Sync set to Adaptive, Maximum pre-rendered frames set to 1. It's the best balance I found between having low input lag and the games working properly, and having beautiful colour. Should I try a HDMI to DVI adapter?

Yes you are right, after trying out Touhou 7 and 8, on HDMI they are also cropped. Pressing INFO on the remote showed 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz.
Tried all screen settings, they're all cropped for some reason. There isn't an option for Screen Fit, only 16:9, 4:3, Zoom, and Wide Zoom.

@aUsernameIsFineToo: Don't have the option to disable panel fitting from my TV. I googled it also and couldn't find anything for my model. I tried Seihou in 4:3 also, it doesnt change much from 16:9, just doesn't look as stretched, but the top and bottom are still cut off very bad. Half of Vivit is missing from the bottom when playing on HDMI. I tried scaling on the GPU instead of the display from the Nvidia Control Panel while I was on HDMI, it made CRAZY input lag!! Weirdly enough, I'm getting more input lag from HDMI rather than with the VGA to DVI adapter...

Thank you both for all your help. I really appreciate the effort. I really don't know how all these problems came up

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

There isn't an option for Screen Fit, only 16:9, 4:3, Zoom, and Wide Zoom.

You'll want to set that to 4:3 when playing Touhou or any other game that runs at a 4:3 aspect ratio.

Half of Vivit is missing from the bottom when playing on HDMI.

When you're in the Windows desktop is the taskbar (assuming you have it at the top or bottom) also cut off? If so there might be a setting on your TV that needs to be changed.

[shockdude]

I found the manual for your TV. I now have a much better idea of what we're dealing with, and I know how to fix HDMI once and for all (I hope).

HDMI on computers is a mess, and always has been.
With VGA, the HDTV acts like a computer monitor, and the computer thinks the HDTV is a computer monitor. This makes everything work ok, but at the cost of image quality.
With HDMI, the HDTV thinks the computer is a cable box, and the computer thinks the HDTV...is an HDTV. This makes everything wrong by default.
When both are set up correctly, you will get the best possible quality from that TV.

If you ever feel like giving up and sticking with DVI-to-VGA, that's fine. Whatever works for your setup will honestly be good enough.

If you want to pull through and set up HDMI properly, these are the objectives:

1. Fix the screen resolutions. HDTVs work best when handling their native resolution, which is 1080p in this case. Therefore, force your GPU to always output 1080p to the TV, even when playing lower-resolution games.
2. Fix the TV. The TV is acting like a TV and not a computer monitor. We need to change that. This should also fix the input lag.

You will need to install the latest Nvidia drivers; it's the only way to make sure the settings are correct.

Connect your computer to HDMI 2. This is the special "PC" port for HDMI on your TV.

Pull up a chair and set your desktop to full 1080p. You can change the resolution to 1366x768 later.

You might not be able to see the entire Windows desktop (start button, etc) due to cropping. This is a good thing, we'll fix that later.

Open the Nvidia Control Panel. Go to "Adjust desktop size and position"

Select a scaling mode: Aspect Ratio
Perform scaling on: GPU
Check "Override the scaling mode set by games and programs."
Resolution: 1920x1080
Refresh rate: 60Hz

Uncheck "Enable Desktop Resizing".

Apply settings. Use the INFO button, ensure the TV is displaying 1080p @ 60Hz.

Also make sure the PC is outputting Full Range colors.

Open your TV menu. Go down to the "Input" menu --> Edit Name --> HDMI2. Set the input name to "PC". This step is crucial; it should remove cropped screen edges, reduce input lag, and reconfigure the colors.

Back out of the TV menu and visit the Picture settings. Change as many of the following as possible:
Mode: Standard
Backlight: Whatever you want.
Contrast: 100, or as high as you can go while still being able to see Color 254 on this page.
Brightness: 45
Sharpness: 0
Color: 50
Tint: 50

Open the "Detailed Settings" if you can. Change as many of the following as possible:
Black Adjust: Dunno. "High" I guess, just make sure you can still see all the black squares on this page and that the background is as black as possible. You might have to readjust the brightness/contrast after this.
Dynamic Contrast: Off
Gamma: 0
Color Space: Native
White Balance: Reset
Flesh Tone: 0
Edge Enhancement: Off
xvYCC: Off

Please let me know which settings were disabled, if any.

At this point, you can change your desktop resolution back to 1366x768. Yet, when you press the INFO button on your remote; it should say 1920x1080.
Play a Touhou game, it should still say 1920x1080, and it will be in uncropped 4:3.
Everything should now work visually.

Btw unplug any 3.5mm audio cables from the computer and make sure the sound works over HDMI. If it doesn't, that's another silly quirk and an easy tix (in theory).

Edit: Some clarifications.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Thank you both again for your replies.

@aUsernameIsFineToo: Even the later Windows games are at 4:3 aspect ratio? Are there any advantages to this over 16:9 like less input lag for example? I actually prefer having the full screen to play on, but then if its affecting my game negatively then it's definitely time for a change to 4:3!
No, when I'm in Windows everything looks normal, the taskbar isn't cut off at all, and the whole screen fits nicely on the desktop! Its only with the games that there's a problem.

@Shockdude: once again thank you so much for all the effort you have put into this. I know you've invested your personal time into this also. I'll definitely try connecting with HDMI again tonight when I get home from work! Who would have guessed that HDMI 2 would be the PC port?? I automatically assumed it was HDMI 1 of course.

I'll post back with my results tonight!

[aUsernameIsFineToo]

Even the later Windows games are at 4:3 aspect ratio?

Every integer Touhou game runs at a 4:3 aspect ratio. Earlier ones only ran at 640x480, while more recent ones have options of 640x480, 960x720, and 1280x960, all of which are 4:3 resolutions. I'd strongly recommend playing Touhou (and basically viewing any 4:3 content) at a 4:3 aspect ratio since that keeps the image in the correct proportion, but in the end it's up to your own preference and decision.

[shockdude]

Every integer Touhou game runs at a 4:3 aspect ratio. Earlier ones only ran at 640x480, while more recent ones have options of 640x480, 960x720, and 1280x960, all of which are 4:3 resolutions. I'd strongly recommend playing Touhou (and basically viewing any 4:3 content) at a 4:3 aspect ratio since that keeps the image in the correct proportion, but in the end it's up to your own preference and decision.

My personal argument for playing Touhou in the correct 4:3 is that, when stretching the game to 16:9, objects move horizontally faster than they move vertically. Patterns that are supposed to be circles or circular spirals turn into ovals, which makes them harder to read and dodge.
My HDMI settings are set to play Touhou in 4:3 by default. If you think the game is too small when playing in 4:3, move your chair/couch closer to the TV lol.

I made some minor edits to my big previous post btw.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Hi again,
well I followed all the steps above, and success! The HDMI worked, sound worked, everything fit into the screen perfectly! All steps covered, even when playing Touhou and pressing INFO on the remote it still stated 1920 x 1080 @ 60 Hz. You are a genius Shockdude! However, there still is a horrible input lag. . . Switched back to the DVI/VGA adapter, and I could feel that the lag is dramatically reduced! I don't get why? Maybe my tv lags more through HDMI than VGA/DVI? Which is weird cause the VGA signal has to be converted so in theory it should cause more of an input lag.

I tried out the 4:3 aspect ratio, it will take some getting used to, but yeah you have a point about circles being ovals. Makes sense. Still think I prefer the screen being full though. . .

Shockdude:
These are the settings that were disabled when in HDMI:
Sharpness
Black Adjust
Dynamic Contrast
Gamma
Flesh Tone
Edge Enhancement
xvYCC

One more thing that's bugging me, Touhou 6 has a 'ghosting effect' and slowdown went up to 1.5% in just the first stage (on Lunatic)! It shouldn't slow down so much right? Touhou 8 then stayed at 0.00% slowdown till the end of stage 1.

[shockdude]

Good info, thanks. The disabled picture settings and lack of cropping means that your TV is correctly handling HDMI2 as a PC input.

The input lag from analog/digital conversion is something that should be true. In practice, there are many other causes of input lag that can dwarf the analog/digital conversion lag.

I did some quick research, and learned that Nvidia's GPU scaling actually adds input lag. Whoops.

Go back to the Nvidia Control Panel, "Adjust desktop size and position"
Scaling mode: No scaling
Perform scaling on: Display

The INFO should now say your actual resolution - but your HDTV is confirmed to be in PC mode, so things should be ok. Your desktop should be 1366x768, Touhou should be 640x480. You can set 16:9 and 4:3 in your TV's Picture Options.

If "No Scaling" is funky, do "Aspect Ratio" instead.

Speaking of Picture Options:
Color Tone: Warm 2. It's gonna look really red/brown at first, but believe it or not this is the "correct" setting, and your eyes will adjust to it after a while. If you can't get used to it (or if the TV won't let you change it), "Normal" is fine.
Digital NR: Off
DNIe: Off
HDMI Black Level: Flip between "Normal" and "Low" while checking lagom.nl's black level test. Pick the one where the background is black (not gray) and all the squares are visible. Hopefully you picked "Normal." If you picked "Low", or if the background is gray, or if you can't see any of the squares in the first two rows, let me know.
* Color is probably the hardest thing to get right when using a TV as a monitor with HDMI. TVs have different color standards than computers, plus they like to fudge things around.
100Hz Motion Plus: Off
Blue Only: Off

I'm assuming your other Nvidia tweaks (maximum pre-rendered frames = 1, etc) are still applied.

If there's still unacceptable input lag...that means your TV is bad at handling HDMI and there's nothing you can do about it. Switch back to VGA and call it a day.
Note that the Picture settings and options I've recommended also apply to VGA.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Well Shockdude, finally some good news!! I applied the new settings you said, and *BAM*, input lag completely vanished! It feels great, characters are super responsive. Now it feels better than with the DVI/VGA adapter! Everything worked well, including Seihou!

In case it helps other users, in Nvidia Control Panel I have V-sync set to 'Adaptive'
Triple Buffering to On
Pre-rendered Frames set to 1
Power Management set to 'Prefer Maximum Performance'
I also had to disable the Nvidia High Definition Audio driver in Device Manager. This was causing part of the input lag. (it was conflicting with my motherboard sound drivers). Felt a huge difference once I disabled and restarted the pc. Of course doing this prevented audio from outputting from the HDMI, so I hooked up some speakers in the 3.5mm audio jack.

Only issues I am facing is some slowdown on certain games, especially Touhou 6. While I really can't feel it, its there on certain Touhous in the results screen. Let's start with the good news:
I stage practiced Touhou 8, Lunatic Stage 4A, slowdown was 0.00%, so that's perfect.
I played Touhou 5 Lunatic until the beginning of stage 4, slowdown was 0.02%, so i think that's good?
I did a Lunatic VS fight in Touhou 3 against Chiyuri and Yumemi, feels awesome, mega responsive!
Seihou feels awesome also, very responsive, no slowdown or stutter at all.

Here's where the trouble starts:
Touhou 5 Extra until Alice using the purple lasers (around half the fight) had a 0.04% slowdown. On my previous laptop, a full Extra 1cc would have 0.00%, (I have screenshots of my previous clears) What gives?
Played Touhou 6 Lunatic Stage 1 till around the middle of stage 2, slowdown was 0.60%! This is worrying because stages 3 - 6 are denser, so it should slowdown more till the end of the game.
Touhou 6 has a terrible ghosting effect which the other games don't have. It's quite distracting.
Any ideas?

Once again thank you so much for all your assistance these past couple of days Greatly appreciated.

[shockdude]

Oh sweet, congrats! Low input lag is always awesome, glad to hear it worked!

Just to confirm, are you able to see four rectangles in this image? If so, your color setup is done.


These are my Nvidia Control Panel recommendations. Some are input-lag-related, some are graphical.

• Restore all other settings to default
• Anistropic Filtering: 16x. This may also change some of the texture filtering settings, which is fine.
• Max pre-rendered frames: 1
• Power management: Optimal should be good enough; max performance is ok but will wear down your GPU more quickly and increase your electricity bill.
• Texture filtering - Quality: High quality
• Triple buffering: Off
• Vertical sync: See below

Disabling the Nvidia audio driver is a weird one; it shouldn't be conflicting with the Realtek driver, and I've never heard of it causing input lag. That being said your setup sounds fine, especially if you have a dedicated set of speakers.
The Nvidia audio driver may come back; if it continues to be an issue, use a DVI-to-HDMI adapter.

The slowdown is weird, but honestly not something you should really worry about. Anything less than 1% slowdown is good; perfect 0% slowdown is rare.
You're using the VSync patches, right?
Disabling Adaptive VSync may help; try some of the other options. 3D application setting is the safe one. Always on/off is obvious. Fast Sync is an interesting one; it guarantees no input lag and no tearing whatsoever, but it may cause stuttering.

Can you post a screenshot of the Touhou 6 ghosting?

It's been fun writing these posts these past few days. I've actually learned quite a bit about the behavior of Nvidia desktops through this (I have a laptop with an Nvidia card, which is a little different).

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Hello again Shockdude,
sorry for the delay in my reply. I tried out the settings you gave me, and I'm sorry to say, they're making the games stutter, especially the PC98 ones Touhou 6 was also acting funny with the frame rate skipping from 60.00 to 59.88 every second. I decided to re-formatting my whole pc in case it was a problem with a driver or something, so at least I would have given everything a fresh install. Now after the fresh install, the PC98 games and Seihou are still working fine. Tested Touhou 5 again, on Lunatic till the beginning of stage 5 only had 0.01% slowdown, so that's good. Its from Touhou 6 onwards that there are problems. Do I need to run the Windows games in compatibility mode or something similar?

My current settings in Nvidia Control Panel are everything set to default except:

Maximum pre-rendered frames: 1
Triple Buffering: On

I experimented with Triple Buffering On/Off, it seems that the games work better with Triple Buffering set to On.

I'm not the only one that experienced less input lag from disabling the Nvidia audio drivers: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/16283668657
As weird as it is, it worked wonders for me!

Yes I'm using the Vsync patches except for Touhou 6, its giving me an error when I try launching with it for some reason... am I doing something wrong? I tried both the normal and unicode versions of the Vsync patch. I attached a screenshot.

I attached a screenshot of the ghosting effect in Touhou 6 also.

A new problem came up in Touhou 7 and 8. Occasionally (around every 30 seconds) from the bottom of the screen scrolling vertically till around half the screen a line appears kinda ripping the page, but not the same way that a v-sync tear happens where the image feels cut in two and isn't joined properly. The image is still connected but this kinda 'transparent' line is scrolling through. I tried taking a screenshot of it but it doesn't show up in the screenshot! :/

I'm still plagued by horrible slowdown for thew Windows games (except Touhou 8 ). Touhou 6 till the end of stage 1 is around 0.60%, Touhou 7 Extra till the beginning of the fight with Ran varies from 0.13% (the lowest I've seen it do), going all the way up to 1.30%!! It shouldn't be going up that high in such a short time. Not even my old laptop had slowdown that high, and this new machine is infinitely more powerful. Any ideas?

[shockdude]

No worries. Everyone's setup is different, do whatever works best with you.
IIRC Triple Buffering doesn't do anything unless you turn on VSync though.

The Nvidia audio driver lag is fascinating, thanks.

That's some nasty ghosting for Touhou 6. What does your config.exe look like?

VSync patch: Your particular setup should be using vpatch_th06_unicode.dll. However, if vpatch_th06_unicode.dll is the only vpatch dll in the folder, it should be working. Not sure what's happening.

Is there any slowdown when you set VSync to "3D application setting?" Ignore tearing, just look at slowdown.
Also, you've put your GPU in high-performance mode, but what about your CPU? Search for "Power Options" and try the "High Performance" mode.
You could also try the DX8 to DX9 converter, just to see what happens.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

I have Vsync set to 'Use the 3D application', so I assume it uses Vsync when it thinks is necessary?

No problem! I too found it interesting, reason it does this is because it causes a conflict with the motherboard sound.

Some 'good' news, I checked 'Display Minimum Graphics Needed' in the config file, the ghosting effect vanished! But all the information around the screen left also! I attached a screenshot.
I also tried 'Force 60 fps', it did not fix the slowdown issue. 0.70% till the beginning of stage 2 in Touhou 6.
Out of curiosity, what is Pad X Axis and Pad Y Axis in the config file? I use a controller to play (with Xpadder, and key tap time set to 0.01) so wondering if these values affect input lag with a controller.

Yes there is slowdown in both Touhou 6 and 7, with 'Use the 3D Application' I tried High Performance Mode, didn't change a thing, I tried the DX8 to DX9 converter, it made Touhou 7 more stuttery for some odd reason. . .
Speaking of stutter, the PC98 games started stuttering again too. . . they were working fine yesterday, I set the settings back to how the were yesterday, and still stuttering. . . I really am confused. . .

I have DIrect X 11, could that be the issue?

I'm also considering the worst case scenario that I have a faulty component. . . any idea what programs to run to make sure everything is working fine? I was reading about stress tests, but I don't think that's what I need, I just need to see that everything is functioning ok. I thought that with those specs this pc would blaze through the Touhou games and allow me to record with no issues like stutter / slowdown etc.

Sorry for all the trouble all this has caused. This has been going on for days now, and I really appreciate your efforts.

[shockdude]

Don't reinstall Windows anymore, it doesn't really help anymore at this point.
Do Windows Update, update everything to the latest version. Also reinstall the latest Nvidia driver. Don't try anything else until everything is up to date.

"Use the 3D Application" means "GPU drivers won't touch or override VSync. Only Touhou decides if VSync is enabled."
If you're using the VSync patch, then VSync should be disabled, and there should be visible tearing as a result. If tearing isn't visible, then you have a misconfig somewhere.

You most likely do not have faulty components. Touhou games are old and honestly pretty janky.

"Display Minimum Graphics" shouldn't be necessary. None of the other config.exe checkboxes should be checked except for the DirectInput one.
Did you not get the VSync patch working with Touhou 6 yet? Imo all bad Touhou 6 behavior should be ignored until vpatch works.

DirectX 11 will not be the issue. If anything, you should be installing DirectX 9; both DX9 and DX11 can and should coexist.

As an experiment, go into Nvidia Control Panel's and set VSync to "Off". "Off" is a last-resort option that disables VSync in all scenarios. If there is stuttering and slowdown with VSync forced off, then you have a big problem; otherwise it's a fixable misconfiguration.

Last Resort option number 2 is to ignore your GPU completely. Remove your GPU, and connect your motherboard's on-board graphics to your TV and see what happens. Ignore color issues, if any, for now; just see if the games run without slowdown or stuttering.

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Everything is fully up to date in Windows Update.

Yes, there is screen tearing when I select 'Use the 3D Application'.

I know they are old, but they weren't this janky. I've done side by side comparisons with my laptop hooked up to the tv, it's much smoother outputting from the laptop.

No sorry, haven't managed, I don't know what else to try to get the Vsync patch working on Touhou 6

I installed DirectX 9, didn't make a difference

I tried the Vsync Off option again, the slowdown didn't really change, I'm getting a more constant screen tear though (which is worse).

I just tried this: http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_1.html
Its a tweak guide for the settings for my graphic card. After doing all those settings, and also installing Nvidia Inspector as stated at the end of the guide, and using the settings provided in the guide on Nvidia Inspector, the screen tearing in Touhou 7 vanished! Slowdown is still the same though, and it looks really blurry. Especially the beginning barrage of bullets in the Extra stage.
Touhou 6 using the same settings but Frame Rate Limiter set to Off (in Nvidia Inspector) shot up to 2000 fps in case it's important.

I just tried going back to my DVI/VGA setup in case these problems are occurring only over HDMI, and the games are much much more stuttery now over DVI/VGA connection.

Do I have to physically remove the GPU? Do I uninstall the graphic drivers? What do I unplug? (sorry I'm not very tech savvy). Just release the lock from the graphic card and unplug it from the motherboard? Or also any power cables/wires?

[Lunatic_Reimu]

Update: I tried unplugging the graphic card and plugging in the VGA cable to the motherboard, and Windows just won't boot :/ It takes me to BIOS, and even if I select my primary drive (the SSD) to boot from the BIOS Boot Menu, it just restarts and goes back to BIOS. I connected my graphic card again, and it booted fine. . . Tried this more than once, and kept doing the same thing.