A Balanced Game of Mafia (Over; town wins)

[Kitten4u]

It's not ironic, I'm just an Umineko nerd.

Respond please.

[ActionDan]

It's not ironic, I'm just an Umineko nerd.

Respond please.

Ok.  Since I'm town I think I will have you facepalm!  nuff' said.  Now how about your cases?

[Kitten4u]

I will get those up when I have time.  I still would like you to explain why I should be trying to throw dirt on Shadoweh even though I think she is totally and completely town and I think I would lose in the event that she got lynched after I did.

[ActionDan]

dig up dirt != throw dirt.  This is what I consider acceptable: You make two cases on why both of us (me and shadoweh) could be scum: You then state which case is stronger and vote based on that. 
To be honest, your blindness this late in the game is really, really weird, no matter which alignment you are.  However we will know why soon enough once you make your cases.  (If shadoweh is indeed scum and you are not I bet she would be LHAO)

[Kitten4u]

But I still do not understand.  As of now I do not expect to live through the day.  I think Shadoweh is town.  I do not want her lynched after I am because, from my PoV, that would mean I lose.  I have no reason to try to make her look bad, I have no reason to pull up things that make her look bad.  I DO NOT WANT HER LYNCHED!  I DID think about which of you two were likely to be scum already!  I spent HOURS going through the game trying to see how scum!Shadoweh made any sense at all and I found nothing.

Ergo, I see no reason to make a case on why she is scum.  The case I intend to type up on her is why she is town.  I fail to see how this is complicated or hard to understand, and I find it terrible that you're trying to push me into trying to make a case on someone I think is town.

[Shadoweh]

Kitten, objectively Dan is right. :/ I feel left out of this entire conversation. If neither of you bother to ask me any questions today I'm not going to be in a very good position to defend myself tomorrow, in the situation where you are town and Dan is scum. Frankly this entire exchange is bizzare and I'm doubting myself all over again. This is why I want to hear from the people who aren't involved and can give an unbiased opinion.

[Kitten4u]

I'm still not really understanding what's so bizarre about it.  I have no doubt that you are town.  I see no need to question you.  All I need to do is make sure Dan gets lynched over you.  Ideally, that will be today, but even if I do end up being lynched today I want to make sure my words help you stay alive.  That is all I care about at this point.

I'll totally get those cases up as promised, I just have stuff I need to work on right now.  Poking in to answer questions and make comments every-so-often is doable, but I can't make the full cases right now.

[Kitten4u]

Actually, let me put that a different way.

-I do not expect to live through the day.
-I think I will lose if Shadoweh gets lynched.
-My top priority is making sure Shadoweh does not get lynched because I do not see how I could possibly survive myself.
-I know I am town.
-Dan is trying to get my lynched.  This is as expected.
-Dan is trying to get me to type up a case/throw dirt around/whatever you want to call it on someone I think is 100% town cannot be scum.
-Dan will need to get Shadoweh to get lynched tomorrow in order to win.
-Having my case would help that.

That is how I see this conversation.

[Shadoweh]

I understand what you're getting at. At this point I think we seriously need to see your cases to go any further on our own. Sure would be nice if the other two got involved. ;-;

[Omba]

Kitten4u:
You forgot the part where your own perception could be skewed, causing you to overlook something. Well, if you're going to write up a case on why Shadoweh is town, I'm assuming you'll also take a look at things that could somehow make her look like scum, even if only to refute that they actually make her scum.

Either way, I'll want you dead after you've made your cases and we've discussed them. Simply to see the cases you've made in perspective.

[Kitten4u]

So, I've spent the past several hours staying away from this game because it took all my self control to not just self-hammer and say screw you all.  Seriously Omba, as if people dismissing what I'm saying wasn't bad enough you have to throw in my face that all my efforts are futile anyway? :|

Cases will come when I feel less emo.  If I feel like doing it at all.  I personally think the cases I posted yesterday suffice, but whatever.  The ones I was going to post today were just more detailed versions of what I said yesterday.

[Shadoweh]

You sound like you just got hit by a wave of apathy. :/ There's no way I can believe you're town now. Giving up is the worst possible thing you can do now, for either alignment's sake.

[Kitten4u]

Nothing I do is going to matter at all.  I have no reason to care.

Unless any of you is willing to explain why Dormio would want his roleblocker lynched and why any sane townie would ask someone to "throw dirt" on someone they think is town rather than asking "Hey Kitten4u, why do you think Shadoweh is town?" then it's clear I'm just wasting my time here.

[ActionDan]

If that's the best you've got than it's just not good enough.  Let's pretend Sect doesn't count as anything but a placeholder vote/person whose reason is blinded entirely by "Dan hate".  You are basing your arguement on me that I'm the last scum because Dormio didn't switch fast enough when It came down to a Scum/Scum roleblocker wagon?  Ok... What do you make of Dormio's first serious post which targeted.. gee.. me and shadoweh.  And his 2nd which pressed me for my WIFOM crap.  Not even Bard was willing to go into that. 

[Bardiche]

##VOTE: ActionDan

OK~

[Bardiche]

To explain, Dan had a terrible forced case on D1, which was Terrible Beyond All Belief. And these few days he has been arguing he is town not by the strength of his actions, but because circumstances dictate he cannot be scum. This defence reeks of incredible amounts of KEIKAKU DOORI, and from someone who self-proclaimed that "tactics > game", I don't think it's too far sought this was all according to plan and he deliberately set himself up here.

Since the roleblocker hasn't died, and given we've lynched scum each game on D1, a two-scum train becomes less unlikely as Dan keeps on bringing arguments on how he cannot be scum based solely on this fact.

The defence is too one-dimensional, the insistence of his townieness too blatant and "in your face".

There's a certain amount of leniency I am willing to lend town who have just had their position made secure through circumstances. But I forego any passes if they spend the rest of the game debunking that position so he looks scummier by the hour.

[Shadoweh]

##Unvote

Kitten, I'll ask you again, please present the full cases you have for both of us. If Bard is willing to consider the other side then so am I. I don't believe in a time when it's too late to prove yourself, one way or the other. The only thing you can do wrong in the end is giving up. Bard, you don't think this sounds like Scum Kitten4u?

[Kitten4u]

@Dan
Yeah, never mind his next post. :V  I also like how you don't address any of my other concerns.

@Shadoweh
Because scum!Kitten4u is always hyperacitve, works really fucking hard at trying to figure things out, and would take anything but the most direct route to victory. :|  Personally, if you want to go by meta this looks far more like RKS!Kitten4u and MSR!Kitten4u (granted, I was third party in that one, but I was acting as a townie more or less).  I just absolutely cannot take having the futility of my actions shoved in my face like that.  It pokes at things in me that I simply cannot deal with.

[Shadoweh]

Kitten4u: You're touching on exactly why I'm having trouble deciding at this point. It feels like you have too much conviction.

There is something that's been seriously bothering me since this day started. We've gone into three days now where all our lynches were written out for us in stone before the day even began. No arguments, no proof, no excuses were considered above the standard of how much Townie Cred each of us have. It's Day 5 now. We need to throw this idea out the fucking window because the person who set this standard is still alive.

Anyway.... Not that Zak isn't suspicious, but he is clearly not the guy to go after.

aside from our two confirmed towns, the day 3 color scale list looks like the day 2 one.

ME!
Shadoweh
Zak
Polaris
HW
Bardiche
Hourai

Everyone remembers this day, right? Note that Dan thought Zak was less scummy then anyone but me, and Zak is the guy he accidentally hammered. He said yesterday it was because the other townies started the wagon and he knew he could get Hourai lynched the next day anyways. I understand why Kitten's been suspicious of you through reading you. From an emotional standpoint, you don't make sense. Your posts literally fill me with bad feelings once I stop ignoring them for coming from an 'obvtown newbie'. All your cases and points are based on assumptions without allowing other possibilities to exist. Until they do. Dan, we can't keep ignoring each other, it would be a disservice to town if I didn't ask you to set aside the defense that you MUST be town and ask you to prove how these actions don't have scum intent.

[ActionDan]

The defence is too one-dimensional, the insistence of his townieness too blatant and "in your face".

Man, that reminds me of the time Kitten4u was defending Shadoweh... O wait that's now isn't it. 
You are making a very heavy accusation based on KEIKAKU DOORI, at least have some courtesy to explain how this could come about instead of something like:

Since the roleblocker hasn't died, and given we've lynched scum each game on D1, a two-scum train becomes less unlikely as Dan keeps on bringing arguments on how he cannot be scum based solely on this fact.

Its quite unfair to apply Bayesian probability to this situation.  The chance that the uninformed town caught 2 informed scum D1 is not increased by future events (the depletion of village numbers).  I have more than this "scum/scum train D1 is impossible" defense (On a side note: Europeans spell defense with a "c" right).  Frankly I have Sect.  Sect attacked me D1 and I attacked back.  It was clear by the end of D1 that Sect was willing to keep his vote on me over Dormio, one of his scum buddies.  It makes no sense now as it did then.  The next day I keep my vote on Sect the whole day declaring him ObvScum, and stated that I wanted him dead over Bard.  I saw Sect's vote on me Day 2 more as a placeholder vote (and in light of developments probably a vote that Sect would have switched to Hourai).  Do you think that as Scum I would willingly sacrifice two of my scumbuddies while there was a detective out there and BANK that I'd kill him?  I'm sorry if you think these are "Circumstances," but my actions and posts are town intended. 

Bard, even though my case was "forced," I still had the balls to make one.  Why don't you piece together this grand conspiracy. cutcutcut

[Kitten4u]

Man, that reminds me of the time Kitten4u was defending Shadoweh... O wait that's now isn't it. 

You still have yet to explain why this would be the optimal path for me to take.  I've already stated how silly this line of thought is and you have yet to counter it.

The next day I keep my vote on Sect the whole day declaring him ObvScum, and stated that I wanted him dead over Bard. 

Y'know, now that I think about it I don't think you've ever explained why Sect was obvscum.  Can you explain now or link to the post where you did earlier if I missed it?

[ActionDan]

Kitten4u: You see what Dormio did? that was called "throwing dirt," on both me and shadoweh, fishing for support.  Dormio got that support on Shadoweh but not on me.  As far as I can understand, this is the source of shadoweh's innocence.  That scum dog-piled her early on.  Yes it is a point in her favor, but it can be interpreted differently "a la Bard."  What if Scum intentionally swelled her wagon to bring it up fast.  This was ED1 so moves like that would be very noticeable, and as such, it was noticed. Sect's vote was thrid, making shadoweh's wagon the largest so far.  HW and Bard followed shortly.   The very next post after Kiro unvoted, Sect unvoted and changed to me.  Basically this makes shadoweh's lynch more unlikely because of the loss of momentum (because the people who unvoted shadoweh most likely won't switch back again).  This partially answers shadoweh, but I have another post D4, that is a condensed version. Hmm I guess I'll look at shadoweh's D2.

cut

[Kitten4u]

I have considered the possibility and dismissed it.  I can't read it as anything other than "Dormio wanted to lynch Shadoweh."

[ActionDan]

You still have yet to explain why this would be the optimal path for me to take.  I've already stated how silly this line of thought is and you have yet to counter it.

I'm assuming the "would" is a "wouldn't".   This essentially gives Shadoweh a free pass once you die if you are town.  I want your case for why shadoweh is town and why I'm scum then we can debate properly.

Y'know, now that I think about it I don't think you've ever explained why Sect was obvscum.  Can you explain now or link to the post where you did earlier if I missed it?

Sect = Obvscum for not hammering scum D1 and going against town.  Did you really reread this game? Why do you think Sect gave up D2, because Sect couldn't keep up the act.

Post your cases . 

cut.  Great.  Now read Sect and tell me "Sect wanted to lynch Dan, but it's an obvious bus and obviously Sect hates Dan even though they are scum buddies"

makes. sense.

[Shadoweh]

I'd rather not add to the WIFOM you're proposing Dan, but the proven town that were on my wagon at the time didn't unvote me because it was too easy, it was because they didn't think a case on me had merit. huh what was on me as well before he got distracted by UK's amazing trollface, and Kiro is a very convincing player. It's entirely possible they thought they could ride out an easy wagon on me based on what Town was doing.

[Kitten4u]

You have them. 

I'm assuming the "would" is a "wouldn't".

No, there is no mistake there.  You claim that me as scum would clear Shadoweh.  How is this optimal for scum that needs to get every non-confirmed townie lynched?

Sect = Obvscum for not hammering scum D1 and going against town.  Did you really reread this game? Why do you think Sect gave up D2, because Sect couldn't keep up the act.

What made him worse than Bard, Serela/Zak, and Hourai?

Yes, there is absolutely a difference between what Sect did and what Dormio did.  I'm content to basically ignore Sect this game.  He compared you to Kips, said that you were stressing him out and said that he didn't really want to play with you.  I do not think his vote was founded in logic at all.  So yes, he wanted you dead, but he wanted YOU dead.  It had nothing to with your role.

[Omba]

Seriously Omba, as if people dismissing what I'm saying wasn't bad enough you have to throw in my face that all my efforts are futile anyway? :|

I never said your efforts are futile; that's assuming you're town. If you really are town and only want to ensure Shadoweh does not get lynched because you're dead sure she's town, too, then it shouldn't matter all that much to you if you're dying before Dan. It would only matter if you're considering the possibility of you being wrong about Shadoweh, in which case you'd of course need to stay alive so Shadoweh could get lynched next round if Dan somehow did end up flipping town.
Thing is, that's also exactly what you'd need to do if you're scum:

No, there is no mistake there.  You claim that me as scum would clear Shadoweh.  How is this optimal for scum that needs to get every non-confirmed townie lynched?

If you're scum, then the first thing you'd need to do is survive this day. The only way for you to do that is getting one of the other two possible candidates lynched. You increase the probability of that happening if you're concentrating on only one of them. Of course that means you're likely screwed once your target flips town, but there's at least a chance that whoever is still alive next round will lynch Shadoweh instead of you. If you were to die this round, you'd have already lost. A small chance of winning is much better than no chance at all.
Doesn't mean you're scum because of this, of course. Just that it doesn't make you town. Still, there's no way in hell I'm going to bet on you being town. Your conviction that Shadoweh is town is pretty much what's still keeping you alive. But we won't know if that conviction is real until you're dead.

[ActionDan]

I don't want to get into a point quote point arguement again like I did with Hourai.  I'll settle this once and for all.

I'm assuming the "would" is a "wouldn't".   This essentially gives Shadoweh a free pass once you die if you are town.  I want your case for why shadoweh is town and why I'm scum then we can debate properly.

You have them. 
No, there is no mistake there.  You claim that me as scum would clear Shadoweh.  How is this optimal for scum that needs to get every non-confirmed townie lynched?

I said if you were town this is not optimal.  As scum!K4U I see this as a gambit to save you a day by attacking me as hard as you can.  If you lynch me today then after I flip town you can say, "damn I screwed up, whelp, I guess shadoweh must be the scum, here's why."  Yes I think this is a dumb scum play, but I think what you are doing is dumber as town!K4U....

I thought you were going to right up cases today?  More definitive ones than the measly ones posted on D4.

What made him worse than Bard, Serela/Zak, and Hourai?

Yes, there is absolutely a difference between what Sect did and what Dormio did.  I'm content to basically ignore Sect this game.  He compared you to Kips, said that you were stressing him out and said that he didn't really want to play with you.  I do not think his vote was founded in logic at all.  So yes, he wanted you dead, but he wanted YOU dead.  It had nothing to with your role.

What made him worse was that Sect posted about not changing his vote to hammer scum, while the others you speak of were nowhere in sight (one was being replaced) and the other two I STATED WERE MY #2, and #3 choices for scum. 

About kips and rage: Here's the thing about scum, they can lie.  Maybe I was an obnoxious bastard (and I'd debate this) but does that mean Sect wanted me off the playing field only out of the goodness of his heart? Pffft.  If you want to see a good example of fakerage, just look at Dormio's play last game.

@shadoweh:  You were content to say earlier that Polaris and Hourai were 500 times scummier than I, so what do you say now? The only thing that has gone on today is a arguement over meta, which you don't put much stock in.     

cut reading

[Edible]

V-O-T-E VOTECOUNT, HAI HAI

Kitten4U (1) - ActionDan
ActionDan (2) - Kitten4U, Bardiche

Dan is at L-1!

Not voting: Omba, Shadoweh

~24 hours remain.  With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

[Shadoweh]

Dan: I was. Then Hourai flipped town, Kitten replaced in and actually started using :effort: and you kept pushing the idea that your townie cred should get everyone lynched before you. I've been ignoring you for way too long and it's that hesitation that I've always regretted for myself in the end.

I never said your efforts are futile; that's assuming you're town. If you really are town and only want to ensure Shadoweh does not get lynched because you're dead sure she's town, too, then it shouldn't matter all that much to you if you're dying before Dan.

I don't actually think this is true. For a townie, sacrificing themselves for any reason means there's one less town in the game and puts town one move closer to an outright loss. No town should ever be willing to give up on the hope that people they can't trust will make the right decision for them. You can't rely on other people to trust your reads.