Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3 (Read 193351 times)

Rikter · « **Reply #60 on:** February 14, 2010, 09:35:27 PM »

Dear God...

I just saw Alice in battle... I don't even want to see that face again but I have to because I need to beat her...

Serela · « **Reply #61 on:** February 14, 2010, 10:26:30 PM »

Quote from: AlexX Unlimited on February 14, 2010, 08:19:25 PM

Greenie heals status effects and... are you sure she has that much worse MND than Minoriko? Taking off all of Green One's equipment and checking to be sure their skillpoint levels are the same, their MND is actually about the same...

...And I'm still mad about the Lily Sigil thing. You know how many turns I wasted trying to PAR that guy when damage would have helped more? >=V I think you were just lucky when you managed to keep him in a perpetual state of PAR, or maybe I'm just that unlucky. Either is possible.

Her status effect healing and her all-stat buff are what she has to offer over Minoriko. However, I always have Meiling out for status effects, and when I've got Kaggy and Reimu and Yukari... single-target buffs aren't all that useful anymore. What I need is someone to throw out who can completely heal Meiling or Remi (or whoever), and Minoriko fits that great. Sanae on the other hand takes much longer to throw out the same amount of heals due to high delays, and doesn't heal nearly as much HP.

And the reason Minoriko's MND doesn't compare to your Sanae's the same is probably because you haven't used Minoriko. People sitting in Gensokyo get 80% exp, people in reserve get 90%, people in the front get 100%. Stat growth is exponential as you level, so having a lower level makes a difference. Hence why Chen will always have much higher SPD then Aya, despite Aya having better SPD growth.

Minoriko both has a better MND growth then Sanae and a good bit lower Level-Up rate, and it makes a decent difference. Plus, Minoriko doesn't need MAG equipment since she should full-heal anyone who isn't named Komachi, so you get to load her up with MND-boosting stuff (or whatever else you want).

I used Sanae in my first play, and when I go back to that save and compare them with no equipment/same skill level at Reimu Lv140, Minoriko STILL had about 1k more MND and 200 less DEF, slightly better SPD/HP. These numbers would both be a good bit better then Sanae if I had been using Minoriko in my party so she would have gotten more EXP.

Also, about the Lily Sigil fight, I guess I got really lucky with Suwako's PAR attack hitting 4 times in a row on my first playthrough :V

Also, Wriggle isn't useless, you have to keep in mind she has incredibly powerful PSN damage. Likely still one of the lesser useful characters, but you'd have to go measuring how much damage PSN-120 does and such.

Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 14, 2010, 08:25:01 PM

Cirno is most definitely NOT crap. Not only is she one of the fastest characters, but she she deal composite damage to all enemies AND lower their speed, not to mention paralyze them.

Her composite damage=not that much, heck, her physical spell should generally deal more since you should go for ATK on level ups with her.

And about the PAR/SPD-down... yes, thats nice, but random battles aren't the difficult part of the game. Bosses are. And most bosses after you get awhile into the game, they just don't get hit by SPD down or PAR that much. And when it misses and the boss gets to move, Cirno has really low HP/DEF/MND and gets mowed down easily.

She has no good damage ability to speak of, and her PAR/SPD-down can be done by other characters, who ALSO have other useful skills beyond SPD down/PAR and much better survival abilities.

Rikter · « **Reply #62 on:** February 14, 2010, 10:46:43 PM »

Lol Pumping 18855 Skill Points into Patchy's mag at level 18 is funny.

5000 ish damage per use of Silent Selene really messes Rumia up.

AlexX Unlimited · « **Reply #63 on:** February 14, 2010, 10:53:00 PM »

Quote from: NeoGenesis on February 14, 2010, 10:26:30 PM

Her status effect healing and her all-stat buff are what she has to offer over Minoriko. However, I always have Meiling out for status effects, and when I've got Kaggy and Reimu and Yukari... single-target buffs aren't all that useful anymore. What I need is someone to throw out who can completely heal Meiling or Remi (or whoever), and Minoriko fits that great. Sanae on the other hand takes much longer to throw out the same amount of heals due to high delays, and doesn't heal nearly as much HP.

Thing is your analysis doesn't work considering my team set-up. The biggest example is in the other option for status curing: Meiling isn't one of my main tanks. My strategy always involves 10F in slot 1 and Medicinebitch in slot 2, only swapping in Meiling if one of them is in trouble (which happens less and less as my designated slot 2 gets the SP to overheal allies more and more without having to take a break and hit the bench... and 10F almost never needs a swapping-out). Without her out too often I need another source of status restore, which Minoriko does not give.

Delays generally don't mean too much since no matter which healer I ever used, they always swapped in, healed the person most in need of curing, and swapped out before the boss has a chance to attack since healers don't want to take hits.

Between the buffers like goldenbitch and Reimu, yeah they both buff the whole team, but only one set of stats at a time... i.e. attack OR defense. Green One's buff ups EVERYTHING in one go, which is especially useful if I just swapped someone in, who likely doesn't have Reimu's Hakurei Border defense on her and at best only has a few Eighty Billion Holy Boards/Banquets on her, which is nowhere near as good (amazing how fast those spells cuts into the user's SP... Honestly I'm tempted to focus 100% on her SP for skillpoint and level-up bonuses, and while I know you think defenses would be better I never find her running low on HP enough compared to SP).

Quote

And the reason Minoriko's MND doesn't compare to your Sanae's the same is probably because you haven't used Minoriko. People sitting in Gensokyo get 80% exp, people in reserve get 90%, people in the front get 100%. Stat growth is exponential as you level, so having a lower level makes a difference. Hence why Chen will always have much higher SPD then Aya, despite Aya having better SPD growth.

Their level was close enough at the time of comparison that the difference was negligable (I used Minoriko until at least floor 10 after all, if not longer). It was good enough on both, though quite frankly neither one of them should be taking hits.

Quote

Also, Wriggle isn't useless, you have to keep in mind she has incredibly powerful PSN damage. Likely still one of the lesser useful characters, but you'd have to go measuring how much damage PSN-120 does and such.

Pretty sure someone else said she was bad, not me.

Fishin · « **Reply #64 on:** February 14, 2010, 11:49:28 PM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 14, 2010, 08:25:01 PM

Cirno is most definitely NOT crap. Not only is she one of the fastest characters, but she she deal composite damage to all enemies AND lower their speed, not to mention paralyze them.

Cirno is useful (great, even) for the early floors, but then

Spoiler:

joins and is all "Oh, you do paralysis and -SPD? I can do both of those, in one attack, with -def, -mnd, and poison to boot. Oh, and I can tank too."

Quote from: MystearicaUtsuho on February 14, 2010, 04:41:50 AM

I still can not figure out how to boost BP through use of Cheat Engine, I seriously need help on this.

Same as I posted in the last thread:
- Open Cheat Engine and Touhou Labyrinth, load your saved game, open thlabyrinth as the program that Cheat Engine is modifying
- Unknown initial value, set memory scan options to "all", click first scan
- Win into a random battle with Chen in your party of 4
- Increased value by, enter "2", click next scan
- Swap the rest of your party out except Chen, do another battle, do increased value by 2 again
- Put Chen into your reserves, win another battle, "unchanged value", and hit next scan
- The only remaining address should be Chen's BP, rinse and repeat with other characters

Exactly what's not working when you try this?

Jaimers · « **Reply #65 on:** February 15, 2010, 12:46:01 AM »

Fuck you

Spoiler:

! Fuck you so hard!

That battle took over 30 minutes! I see you use

Spoiler:

, now I've read all the warnings earlier in the thread, so I ready Marisa for master spark and Patchy to nuke.
INSTEAD, YOU DIDN'T EVEN GIVE ME TIME TO FIRE THE DAMN THING BEFORE YOU 0HK MY ENTIRE PARTY!

GODDAMNIT

Serela · « **Reply #66 on:** February 15, 2010, 12:50:41 AM »

Quote from: Jaimers on February 15, 2010, 12:46:01 AM

That battle took over 30 minutes!

You're likely underleveled for the fight then, in which case you probably wouldn't do enough damage to kill her post-Resurrection anyway.

Jaimers · « **Reply #67 on:** February 15, 2010, 01:14:53 AM »

Well, I was being insanely carefull and never really used Patchy. The only ones on offense were Remilia and Chen. Is level 60ish underleveled? Marisa and Patchy are level 80 and 72 in MAG respectively.

Also, why does

Spoiler:

never paralyse anything?

[/size]

Serela · « **Reply #68 on:** February 15, 2010, 01:17:07 AM »

Quote from: Jaimers on February 15, 2010, 01:14:53 AM

Well, I was being insanely carefull and never really used Patchy. The only ones on offense were Remilia and Chen. Is level 60ish underleveled? Marisa and Patchy are level 80 and 72 in MAG respectively.

Also, why does
Spoiler:
Suwako
never paralyse anything? [/size]

Stop using her PAR attack on stuff that is resistant to PAR D:

And 65~70 is the recommended level I think. It should be possible at your level then, but not ideal if you don't want RAGE I LOST AGAIN

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #69 on:** February 15, 2010, 03:23:42 AM »

Hah, beat Cosmic. I'm not exactly sure how, but I managed to weather his magic jutsu. Just one more sigil until I can reach THE FINAL BOSS (note that I pronounce this like it is pronounced in Full Life Consquences).

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #70 on:** February 15, 2010, 04:33:37 AM »

Yessah! Floor 20...at last! What level is recommended to fight

Spoiler:

? The enemies on this floor are TOUGH, except for the Executioners, but even they have a hella trippy attack.

LHCling · « **Reply #71 on:** February 15, 2010, 05:02:28 AM »

130+ I would suggest. Though, there's a bit of leeway.

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #72 on:** February 15, 2010, 05:06:23 AM »

'k. Reimu's currently at level 114. Guess I'd better prepare for another long grind...and not to fight

Spoiler:

every other level like I did with Mr. Man, because when I accidentally ran into her, I got to the point where three of her eldritch abominations were summoned before she raised all their battle gauges to 100% and completely toasted me (how far into the fight is that BTW?). I like how she's actually not resistant to anything (except death obviously), and is vulnerable to all elements, meaning anyone you've brought to this point can be useful.

Also, any estimates on her health?

Milkyway64 · « **Reply #73 on:** February 15, 2010, 06:00:48 AM »

There's an, IIRC, 80k, 100k, and 120k going in reverse order to summoning. Once all three are dead the boss's HP "unlocks" and you can begin whittling it away.

And the grinding isn't long as long as you use floor 18 and 15 together on floor 20. Have you EVEN noticed the EXP those enemies give? You'll level up on average once per kill.

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #74 on:** February 15, 2010, 06:37:11 AM »

They're tough enemies though. Also, I don't use

Spoiler:

. My final team is:

Spoiler:

Well, I've explored the remainders of floors 19 and 20. Unless I want to go back to floor 13 and pick up those last few places, I have nothing left to do but grind.

Pesco · « **Reply #75 on:** February 15, 2010, 07:13:59 AM »

Testing out the stat level ratings. The formula of how the rating affects the cost is directly proportional e.g.

Stat	Rating	1->2	2->3	3->4	4->5	5->6	6->7
Reimu def	200	4	14	30	50	74	104
Reimu mag	100 (110 adjusted to)	2	7	15	25	37	52
Reimu spi	300	6	21	45	75	111	156
Sakuya spd	200	4	14	30	50	74	104

Base values are not random from what I've gathered. Excel's curve-fitting says cost = 2.0019(level)^1.8184.

LHCling · « **Reply #76 on:** February 15, 2010, 08:26:34 AM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on February 15, 2010, 06:37:11 AM

Spoiler:
Pudding

Funny that. I'm eating some

Spoiler:

at this very moment. Delicious stuff.

That said, I'm still seeing your team being a lot more Magic-Oriented. It also occurred to me just then that you only have 1 healer, though the "support" utilities of certain characters might kick in more which may or may not balance this out. To each their own.
/observation

HP estimates? Hm...

The actual Boss

Spoiler:

.

20F should be a breeze for about 80% of the time if you use a full house of ~~glass cannons~~ "one-shots" (e.g.

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

[hah], etc.) paired with ~~somebody like~~

Spoiler:

who when using her support move, will give you twice as many attacks.

Let it be known that I have never hammered the Rest button so much in the entire game until that point for grinding purposes.

Ghaleon · « **Reply #77 on:** February 15, 2010, 08:30:56 AM »

Quote from: Pesco on February 15, 2010, 07:13:59 AM

Testing out the stat level ratings. The formula of how the rating affects the cost is directly proportional e.g.
Stat Rating 1->2 2->3 3->4 4->5 5->6 6->7
Reimu def 200 4 14 30 50 74 104
Reimu mag 100 (110 adjusted to) 2 7 15 25 37 52
Reimu spi 300 6 21 45 75 111 156
Sakuya spd 200 4 14 30 50 74 104

Base values are not random from what I've gathered. Excel's curve-fitting says cost = 2.0019(level)^1.8184.

I documented the rating costs of atk/def/mnd/mag/ and speed (though not mag for physical and not attack for magic characters) of 20 different characters. The way I did it is using the cheat engine to give me oodles of points, and then I spent it on level ups until the skill up cost surpassed 100k. The final skill level for each character seems to average around 220-250 for all their stats. Where the lowest levels end at 167, and the highest was 320 (of the 20 characters I tested). Beat in mind the costs for other stats like tp and elemental resists are much higher.

I can post em here if you like.
I'm not sure what that curve fitting means exactly. is that relative to the base cost? Because there doesn't seem to be any variable dependant on anything but level in there, and that wouldn't make sense because they'd all have the same cost in that case. Yeah I think so. though I seem to recall my findings had the cost go up a little bit more than that. It seems close though. I mean it IS almost quadruple the cost every double the level. (I found it to be closer to quadruple each time, but never really quite there, but almost).

update:
Tracked down neo's patch 2.06b download link, re-linked it on first post so people can find it easily. Please let me know if there's any other info I might have missed for new people getting into this for the first post.

Moar update:

Eh, so I started my NG+, and things seemed to be going fine, until I noticed chen had 1000ish exp.. Bear in mind this was after my 3rd fight only. I look to see if anybody else has more experience. Most of my dudes have the proper amount, but some have more, some have as much as 50,000!. Anybody else see this happen, or how to fix it?

Sounds funny but I'm going to use the cheat engine to lower my exp now >=\

trancehime · « **Reply #78 on:** February 15, 2010, 09:26:45 AM »

Quote from: Baity on February 14, 2010, 07:12:38 PM

Alright, so far I'm seeing people putting these people down as "absolute crap":
Sakuya
Cirno
Wriggle
Spoiler:
Reisen

And the "not so bad":
Spoiler:
Iku
Spoiler:
Eirin

I've noted the other choices, but there's no "common" agreement between them as of yet so I won't list them right now. Anybody else who hasn't answered yet and would like to add? Donut? You're quite far in; you can give an opinion.

Here's my improvised tier list. I like to think I know what I'm talking about :S

OMGWTFGDLK??? TIER
This is special and completely independent of the actual tier list.

Spoiler:

S Tier
Reimu
Marisa
Yuugi

Spoiler:

A Tier
Chen

Spoiler:

Borderline A-B
Alice
Meiling

Spoiler:

B Tier
Pachery

Spoiler:

C Tier
Remilia
Sakuya Really generous, would be in REALLY SUCK TIER w/o Lunar Dial
Minoriko
Rumia

Spoiler:

You Really Suck Tier
Cirno
Wriggle

Spoiler:

Justifications for Contented Positions

Spoiler:

Why?

Spoiler:

has monstrous magical damage, and isn't completely slow, to boot. However, her lowest delayed spell still has 6000 delay, and costs a whopping 240~ish MP on

Spoiler:

resources! Everything else costs around 8500. Which isn't very reassuring.

Spoiler:

, who has debilitating delay on her attacks, have higher damage potential due to her superior ATK compared to

Spoiler:

's MAG.

Spoiler:

would probably leave A Tier limbo if her attacks came out faster and she had more resources. As it stands, though, she is staying there.

Spoiler:

is someone who generally most people use at offense. However, that is a great misconception. Hihiirokane Blade is a powerful, fairly quick ST attack, there's no denying that, but that's as far as his offensive prowess goes. His REAL use is to spam World-Shaking Military Rule against bosses to make everyone super-strong, and then proceed to tank the shit out of enemy attacks. His initial defensive stats MAY leave something to be desired, considering

Spoiler:

and Yuugi exist, but that can easily be fixed with skill points.

Spoiler:

is just a very solid member all around ever since the time you get him.

Spoiler:

is a true one-trick pony on her own. All she can really do is give the party an extra turn. Without Chen and Ran in the same party, most of her attacks do dipshit in terms of damage. Now, this is excusable since you'd have either or in your party generally, but as a character in herself, she's not at all solid. Decent-ish stats, but her attacks are too quirky for what they are. Shikigami Ran+ is decent damage if the two are around, but if not, too bad. You basically need 3 people for 1 spot. >:S

Pesco · « **Reply #79 on:** February 15, 2010, 10:13:42 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on February 15, 2010, 08:30:56 AM

I documented the rating costs of atk/def/mnd/mag/ and speed (though not mag for physical and not attack for magic characters) of 20 different characters. The way I did it is using the cheat engine to give me oodles of points, and then I spent it on level ups until the skill up cost surpassed 100k. The final skill level for each character seems to average around 220-250 for all their stats. Where the lowest levels end at 167, and the highest was 320 (of the 20 characters I tested). Beat in mind the costs for other stats like tp and elemental resists are much higher.

I can post em here if you like.
I'm not sure what that curve fitting means exactly. is that relative to the base cost? Because there doesn't seem to be any variable dependant on anything but level in there, and that wouldn't make sense because they'd all have the same cost in that case. Yeah I think so. though I seem to recall my findings had the cost go up a little bit more than that. It seems close though. I mean it IS almost quadruple the cost every double the level. (I found it to be closer to quadruple each time, but never really quite there, but almost).

The key thing with the costs is the rating variable. A stat that rates 200 will always cost double of a stat that costs 100 to raise a level when they are on par. That also reminds me I forgot to factor in the rating for my curve-fit equation >_>. Essentially the equation looks like:

Cost = Rating * f(Level)

The core stats are rated around 50 to 400, affinities from 400 to 2000 and tp from 3000 to huge.

yoshicookiezeus · « **Reply #80 on:** February 15, 2010, 10:18:37 AM »

Spoiler:

becomes much easier when you have for characters that can actually survive a Flowing Hellfire and Reimu to switch in and heal them all. Still lost two characters due to bad luck: Patchy went down when the boss decided to use Flowing Hellfire without waiting three attacks in between for no apparent reason, and

Spoiler:

became the victim of a random fourth-slot Slash.

Also, I've just realized that apparently my characters slowly get healed while switched out. Is this due to having a certain character in my party, or have I just not noticed it before?

Serela · « **Reply #81 on:** February 15, 2010, 01:12:40 PM »

In Trance's Tier list, the main thing I greatly disagree with is C Tier. Remi, Minoriko,

Spoiler:

are in there? What?

I use generally use tank set up of Meiling-Remi-

Spoiler:

, sometimes switching

Spoiler:

out for someone who can deal damage or heal.

Spoiler:

is almost purely for buffing the party's defense and taking almost no damage from any MAG attack (MND level ups <3), Meiling doesn't have much trouble surviving even when buffs run low on her, and

Spoiler:

's buffs stay high because she's so damn slow. As for Remi, Remi can buff HERSELF up, so her's stay quite high making up for her otherwise non-awesome stats and turning her into a great tank and good passive damage as well.

Spoiler:

is NOT for damaging in my party, she's just for massive MND (which is as high as Meiling DEF despite Meiling having a higher skill level/better equipment) and a very very useful DEF/MND party buff. Her minorly useful PAR/SPD-down spell and more useful Party Active Gauge filler are just icing on the cake.

I don't need Sanae's status healing because I've got Meiling's Healer, and although that doesn't copy Debuff healing, at this point it seems easier to simply rebuff anyway (Meiling/

Spoiler:

can't have ATK/MAG rebuffed until I beat Final Boss v2 but its not important for

Spoiler:

and not too bad for Meiling usually). Minoriko I find more useful because her heal will heal more, so when someone is low on HP, Minoriko is able to full heal even Meiling or Remi easily. Plus, she does this without MAG equipment, so I can pile her up on MND+ gear (or whatever else) so that when she DOES need to stay out a turn, she can take a MAG hit. Also, when she stays out for more then one move, she'll get to act much faster then Sanae due to lower delays, so she's in less danger and also heals (or on a rare occasion, buffs) my team faster.

Also,

Spoiler:

. I find her useful for her good HP/MND and then her self-buff that increases her ATK greatly and helps take care of her lower DEF. Throwing Atlas is a pretty great nuke after the self-buff, and with some gear to increase Debuff resistance, I don't have to worry about SPD-down. She's one of my great damage dealers and also one of the more easy to keep alive. Her SPD-down attack is useful against targets that are weak to debuffs as well.

trancehime · « **Reply #82 on:** February 15, 2010, 01:48:05 PM »

Remi is a jeigan therefore she scales worse than over 60% of the entire PC cast therefore her usefulness trickles off to the low end therefore she ends up performing less than stellar at the parts when it really matters.

Granted I formulated the list solely off of post-game content, so there will definitely be some inconsistencies.

Quote

Spoiler:
Yukari
is NOT for damaging in my party, she's just for massive MND (which is as high as Meiling DEF despite Meiling having a higher skill level/better equipment) and a very very useful DEF/MND party buff. Her minorly useful PAR/SPD-down spell and more useful Party Active Gauge filler are just icing on the cake.

Well she is only good for her Party Active Gauge skill, really. Yeah, she has good MND, but so does every other decent tank you should be using at that point, you don't need more tanks than you already do at that point, she's just a dead weight if she didn't have the "LOL GIVE EVERYONE A TURN" skill. Okay, I am not going to chuck out her buff out the window, but seriously, you don't need her for that. Her PAR/SPD-down spell? Uhhh remember I'm basing this on after-game, where

Spoiler:

exists and therefore this entire shtick is rendered game, it goes to

Spoiler:

. Thing is, Yukari for me is just generally easily outclassed by many other characters in her respective niche, MINUS the Party Active Gauge skill, which I am not willing to permit as the sole reason for her being in B Tier

Quote

Minoriko I find more useful because her heal will heal more, so when someone is low on HP, Minoriko is able to full heal even Meiling or Remi easily. Plus, she does this without MAG equipment, so I can pile her up on MND+ gear (or whatever else) so that when she DOES need to stay out a turn, she can take a MAG hit.

How the hell does your Minoriko heal more than Sanae unless you've been giving Minoriko more skill points? This doesn't make any logical sense, it only shows you're being biased because there is no way Minoriko is going to heal more than Sanae without being given more skill points, the numbers disagree. Okay, going to concede that Mino's healing is faster, but what's she got other than that? Falling Leaves of Madness is solid offense but that is pretty much it. Sanae has Miracle Fruits AND a non-elemental row spell.

Quote

Also, Suika. I find her useful for her good HP/MND and then her self-buff that increases her ATK greatly and helps take care of her lower DEF. Throwing Atlas is a pretty great nuke after the self-buff, and with some gear to increase Debuff resistance, I don't have to worry about SPD-down. She's one of my great damage dealers and also one of the more easy to keep alive. Her SPD-down attack is useful against targets that are weak to debuffs as well.

Actually Suika's HP is completely average and many people have the same HP growth as her and are just as good if not better at slugfesting, like, say, Youmu. Yeah, Suika has a nice buff. But if you need buffs to be an awesome slugfester, you will never be an awesome slugfester. Ever. Even Alice, who mainly focuses on multi-target attacks, can potentially do more damage than Suika when both are unbuffed. Screw that Suika HAS to use her buffs before you can legitimately compare her with someone who can't buff, that is intrinsically unfair because that means you are immediately gimping another character since they can't buff. She's terribly terribly average >_>

Serela · « **Reply #83 on:** February 15, 2010, 02:13:10 PM »

...okay, those are good points. I do think I can argue on Minoriko though.

Quote from: TranceHime on February 15, 2010, 01:48:05 PM

How the hell does your Minoriko heal more than Sanae unless you've been giving Minoriko more skill points? This doesn't make any logical sense, it only shows you're being biased because there is no way Minoriko is going to heal more than Sanae without being given more skill points, the numbers disagree.
Minoriko's healing formula is MAG x 1.8, Sanae's is MAG. Minoriko has a MAG growth rate 2/3s of Sanae's and a decently better level-up rate, so while Sanae will still have a good bit more MAG, it couldn't hope to exceed Minoriko's heal on equal equipment/SKP/EXP gained. In your game if you tested it, Sanae might heal more even on Same-SKP-No-Equips, but that would indicate Sanae has been gaining a significantly larger amount of EXP then Minoriko has.
Okay, going to concede that Mino's healing is faster, but what's she got other than that? Falling Leaves of Madness is solid offense but that is pretty much it. Sanae has Miracle Fruits AND a non-elemental row spell.
Miracle Fruits IS one of the things Sanae has over Minoriko, this is true. However, as far as their attacks go, how often do you use Sanae or Minoriko in random battles anyway? Assuming you don't actually mean using these attacks on a boss when they should be switching out if they don't need to heal/buff.

Minoriko has MND-pierce while Sanae has normal attack damage, so I'd suppose it isn't that unbalanced even in random battles, although Sanae is probably better for that... not that random battles should be giving someone significant trouble in the first place.

Responses in bold.

I'd say the one you should use probably depends on party set-up, because Sanae might be more important then Minoriko in a party that needs her additional affects on her heal.

trancehime · « **Reply #84 on:** February 15, 2010, 02:35:24 PM »

fuck

well i suppose i can see minoriko being better as a healer in the sense that she does, indeed, heal more if you put them equally (forgot that godwind was only MAG) but minoriko becomes horribly outdated if you think about it. not only does sanae have a buff you can use pretty much whenever the fuck you want, she has better resources and inches out over minoriko in terms of overall durability (sacrifices a point of MND for DEF).

anyway, i can definitely say i found more use for sanae because my team was offensively based, i have no room for two separate characters for healing.

Serela · « **Reply #85 on:** February 15, 2010, 03:32:12 PM »

I reached 23F! Lets check it out...
...
oh god 23F, WHYYY ;-;

Well, lets try the 21/22F bosses instead... nope, lost to 21F again. And 22F... fuck. I only have Meiling left. Well, Mountain Breaker does 48k...
*a really goddamn long time later*

what

Garlyle · « **Reply #86 on:** February 15, 2010, 04:12:58 PM »

...I don't agree with the You Really Suck tier. ...But honestly, trying to come up with a singular tier list doesn't work for this game - are we talking for random encounters or bosses (or overall), and are we talking for the main game or the post game? There's a LOT of differences to factor in - characters who rely on status effects become worse with time, for instance, because bosses and enemies seem to lean towards resisting more and more. There's also a few cases where characters deserve to have multiple slots based on other conditions (Such as

Spoiler:

)

...Namely I have had my ass saved a whole lot by Cirno's PAR on random encounters stopping stuff from attacking early long enough for my actual heavy hitters to take them out.

As for Wriggle, I sat down and did some theoretical calculations, just to see what would actually happen. This post is important

Let's assume level 60 and the enemy has 0 PSN resistance. Comet On Earth (PSN power is 120).

(Spell's PSN strength * User's Level) * (1.00 + Users's Level * 0.03)
=(120 * 60) * (1.00 + (60 * 0.03))
=(7200) * (2.8 )
=20160
Every count in battle deals out 2% of this in damage (403) and reduces it by 0.75% of its current value.

It's been a long time since I've done formulaic math. Someone will need to figure it out for me as to what the formula to figure it out actually is, but remember this: It's 100 'count' for a full gauge refill at a speed of 100. It'll be far less before Wriggle can attack and 'refill' the poison. For that given level, I'd assume a speed of 140-150 is safe, which would reduce it to 50 'count' for a full gauge. A rough estimate puts the delay on Comet On Earth at about 60% of the wait gauge - so only 30 count remains. That's small enough to estimate - given that it's dropping less than 1% each count, the effect taking place 30 times can be estimated out to, I think, a fair 30*350 damage, or 10500 extra damage in the time it would take her to cast Comet On Earth again at level 60. Again, this is all rough.

...Unfortunately, her actual attack formula sucks.

So how does this compare to Firefly Phenomenon, which is at least a bit better for damage formula?

(Spell's PSN strength * User's Level) * (1.00 + Users's Level * 0.03)
=(90 * 60) * (1.00 + 60 * 0.03)
=5400 * 2.8
=15120
Rough delay of Firefly Phenomenon looks to be 70%, so we can assume 35 ticks between uses
Damage Per Tic (302) over 35 tics = approximately a 15% average loss(?), so ~250*35
Added damage between each use of Firefly Phenomenon is 8750

...Hmm.

Now, of course, this is assuming we're talking about using it repeatedly. The fact is that it remains until it drains out. If someone can actually put together a good formula, we may be able to get the actual total added damage for inflicting Comet On Earth at a certain level. It'd actually be much higher as the damage would still be dealt for a fairly long time - it should be, I think, over twice the estimated amount of added damage, assuming no PSN resistance.

Also I feel like her obscenely high ailment resistances and good levelling speed deserve at least some factoring into her stature.

Regardless, I feel like we need some actual numbers to go off of for Wriggle, to get a grasp of how well she actually does what she's supposed to, before we post her. If we get a formula that we can plug in we can actually get some numbers at given levels and figure out exactly how much she's doing beyond what it says. I don't expect a complete upset, but...

Jaimers · « **Reply #87 on:** February 15, 2010, 04:19:48 PM »

So I grinded a bit by exploring 16F and ran into

Spoiler:

, only to be slaughtered by her in two turns. :V

Yeah, I should probably go back and you know, beat

Spoiler:

and such.

But damn,

Spoiler:

gets fast after

Spoiler:

. It's going to be hard to fire a spark at her.

Garlyle · « **Reply #88 on:** February 15, 2010, 04:22:07 PM »

Quote from: Jaimers on February 15, 2010, 04:19:48 PM

So I grinded a bit by exploring 16F and ran into
Spoiler:
Yukari
, only to be slaughtered by her in two turns. :V

Yeah, I should probably go back and you know, beat
Spoiler:
Mokou, Flandre, Great Stamp, Yuyuko? Orin?
and such.

You probably should.

Spoiler:

Taishyr · « **Reply #89 on:** February 15, 2010, 04:34:34 PM »

Trance talked about this topic, I figured I'd toss my own impressions in. Note that I feel even the "bottom" tier chars are useful in some situations - but people higher may do their job better/have more options/better stats. In other words, to me, -all characters have some relative worth-. Anyone in parenthesis is aftergame, and this is entirely subjective (top tier Chen didn't tip you off? But I had no better boss slugger for the main game or even through much of aftergame)

Regarding "what are the tiers for" I just went with overall worth - both in randoms and against bosses, mostly. Some are very high for only randoms (

Spoiler:

comes to mind here, but she's godlike - and sadly aftergame) - for those, while Chen chews through bosses but arguably isn't as useful against randoms.

Tier 1: Reimu, Marisa, Chen, Yuugi,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

, (

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

)
Tier 2: Alice,

Spoiler:

, China,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

, Aya, (

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

)
Tier 3:

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

, Patchy,

Spoiler:

, (

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

)
Tier 4: Sakuya, Remilia,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

,

Spoiler:

, Youmu, (

Spoiler:

)
Tier THE STRONGEST: Cirno, Wriggle, Rumia,

Spoiler:

, Minoriko

Tier What The Goddamn Hell Is Wrong With You:

Spoiler:

, (

Spoiler:

)

General comments:

Cirno: I couldn't resist making the final tier tier THE STRONGEST. In practicality she's probably in between tiers, but... I'm not fond of her low damage, even if it's a rather useful element. The paralysis is always (n)ice, tho.

Minoriko: ...I can see the arguments here (faster healing, better mult offsets worse MAG growth) but Sanae's more versatile and IIRC manages better stats overall. Useful, definitely, but not good enough for me to justify her.

Wriggle: Do you care about POIZN? My playstyle says no. Others may say yes, and so she'd jump pretty high.

Willing to comment more on other's positions, but that's all for now.

NeoGenesis: I took on the F21/22 sigil bosses... when I hit F25? So uhm. Work on getting through F23, F24's pretty decent leveling grounds -once- you're able to kill a certain random whenever it pops up. Good luck. EDITEDIT: And be very careful on the F21 boss. Fightspoiler in spoilercomments.

Spoiler: