Author Topic: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups  (Read 57816 times)

Pesco

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #420 on: October 21, 2009, 08:06:53 PM »
With the game state, I still felt it was possible to win.

Pesco

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #421 on: October 21, 2009, 08:08:13 PM »
There's a reason why deadpan snarkers are the guys who solve the messy problems.  Granted, I could have built up logical arguments against others, but being whining and annoying tends to set people off just enough to find out who's scum and who's not.  And besides, Pesco, do you have the list of people and their alignments?  I'd like to prove right now that both Roukanken and UK are townie.

And take this as a lesson, just because someone's nice doesn't mean they're good and vice a versa.  See Archer from Fate/Stay Night for an example of the latter.

Use less outdated vocab.

And since you're so smug, you tell us who is on the scumteam ;D

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #422 on: October 21, 2009, 08:13:39 PM »
Alright, final judgement on some players.

Affinity and Zak, firstly, I just didn't see enough of. I can't remember anything in particular either of you said, and Affinity spent a good deal of time asking me a question I'd already answered.

Nietz's reasoning for self-healing is still poor to me. You have no reason to heal yourself and therefore prevent being able to use your attack for pressure if not finding scum at the start of the day.

Serp insisting on dropping people to low health with unknown scum abilities was bad. Admittedly it ended up that it would've been a decent idea, but that's besides the point.

I already made my case against Edible.

UK...overreacted. A lot. Yes, 3 HP was a lot of damage, but that's what healing is for. You weren't in any danger of death until your overreaction and OMGUS landed you in hot water.

Drake, I understand this was your first game, but you tunneled on Serp really hard pretty much all game. I also didn't like how you basically followed UK's case word for word.

Ramus...I had never liked how you played this round, but I'm irritated I gave you a pass on rusty newbie meta. -_-

And once again, I need to apologise for screwing up myself. I was first on Edible, yes, but I had him tied with EVERY OTHER PLAYER in terms of suspicions which helps nothing. That's why I think I seriously need a break from this game. -_-

Ramus

  • The Knightly Wizard
  • Trying to be an engineer
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #423 on: October 21, 2009, 08:14:26 PM »
Didn't quite get that far.  Like I said, I hunt for townies.  While people who are scum will try different tactics over different games, townies tend to remain the same since they play the role enough to find their own effective repeat strategy.

Still, going off of gut:

1. Affinity
2. Zakeri
3. Nietz

In order of suspicion.  Drake struck me as too innocent to be scummy and Serp, well, why would scummy Edible target him?  Despite that, going off of meta game, Nietz has an excuse not to being attacking (look at his character), so he's off the list.  Down to Affinity and Zakeri.

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #424 on: October 21, 2009, 08:18:12 PM »
...Wait, Ramus is Town? o_O

The way I saw it, it looked like he was boasting that he was getting Town to destroy itself. :V

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #425 on: October 21, 2009, 08:18:56 PM »
Scummy Edible DIDN'T target Serp, that's one of the reasons I was so annoyed.

Pesco chose Serp randomly.

Ramus

  • The Knightly Wizard
  • Trying to be an engineer
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #426 on: October 21, 2009, 08:26:53 PM »
...Wait, Ramus is Town? o_O

The way I saw it, it looked like he was boasting that he was getting Town to destroy itself. :V

Dude, I caught Edible.  WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM?!

Anyway, Edible, since Pesco isn't talking, can you give us the identities of the Mafia?

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #427 on: October 21, 2009, 08:29:54 PM »
Dude, I caught Edible.  WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM?!
Touch?. T_T

I guess I can't hope it's UK, then. >_>

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #428 on: October 21, 2009, 08:31:56 PM »
I don't wanna, and you only caught me because the mods screwed up. <3

Pesco

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #429 on: October 21, 2009, 08:33:00 PM »
Alright, final judgement on some players.

Affinity and Zak, firstly, I just didn't see enough of. I can't remember anything in particular either of you said, and Affinity spent a good deal of time asking me a question I'd already answered.

Nietz's reasoning for self-healing is still poor to me. You have no reason to heal yourself and therefore prevent being able to use your attack for pressure if not finding scum at the start of the day.

Serp insisting on dropping people to low health with unknown scum abilities was bad. Admittedly it ended up that it would've been a decent idea, but that's besides the point.

I already made my case against Edible.

UK...overreacted. A lot. Yes, 3 HP was a lot of damage, but that's what healing is for. You weren't in any danger of death until your overreaction and OMGUS landed you in hot water.

Drake, I understand this was your first game, but you tunneled on Serp really hard pretty much all game. I also didn't like how you basically followed UK's case word for word.

Ramus...I had never liked how you played this round, but I'm irritated I gave you a pass on rusty newbie meta. -_-

And once again, I need to apologise for screwing up myself. I was first on Edible, yes, but I had him tied with EVERY OTHER PLAYER in terms of suspicions which helps nothing. That's why I think I seriously need a break from this game. -_-

You got a null read on Affinity and Zak, nothing to blame there.

Read Nietz' healing condition. It makes sense why he did that.

I found Serp's suggestion to be quite pro-town in the general feel of it.

UK is a matter for when she gets here herself.

Drake was basically speaking my mind this game, especially regarding 'scummy spellcards'

Rusty meta that also happened to be correct this time round. Or still correct in your case.

Dude, I caught Edible.  WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM?!

Anyway, Edible, since Pesco isn't talking, can you give us the identities of the Mafia?

I don't recall you ever tackling Edible, so it doesn't exactly count as having caught him. By your definition, Rou caught scum too when he posted his list-of-suspect-everyone.

Edible and Zak made the team.

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #430 on: October 21, 2009, 08:47:04 PM »
Aw, you spilled the beans.

Pesco

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #431 on: October 21, 2009, 08:51:02 PM »
Because Ramus was not on the ball.

Now guess who the SK was :V

Seian Verian

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #432 on: October 21, 2009, 08:52:42 PM »
Well, this is just great. My first game I end up being completely fail... Well, not that I wasn't expecting that >_< It also got ended midgame... And once again I was wrong on my prime suspect on who was scum... That is, Serp. Maybe I'm not cut out for this... You know, strangely, despite the frustration I kept feeling, I'm still thinking about signing up for the next game <_<; Maybe because even though it can be ARGH at times, it's still a way to pass time... Kinda like Touhou really, but with much more rage compared to actual fun...

I do seem to completely suck at this though <_<; I honestly didn't think there was anything scummy enough to warrant any mention by me except for Serp's thing... Which if my logic really was that bad, speaks for itself on how much I failed... Especially, since I still don't see why it was bad enough to be termed "crap logic" which it did end up being called...

It doesn't help that I don't even end up thinking about sometimes even incredibly obvious things until other people point it out... Which was the reason I ended up "following the leader" =/ I'm aware that it's not really a valid excuse, but I do want to say it at least...

Pesco

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #433 on: October 21, 2009, 08:56:25 PM »
Your logic wasn't bad. Being sensible is enough for now and it was only your lack of experience.

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
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  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #434 on: October 21, 2009, 08:59:13 PM »
We've had far worse new players, trust me.

Nietz

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #435 on: October 21, 2009, 09:25:33 PM »
Oh damn, it's over?
Too bad, I genuinely thought the game had it's interesting moments. Problem is, all actions being resolved at the end of the day created an, at least for me, a lull when I was just waiting for the actions to resolve before going forward. For instance, I  had little interest in rereading and analyzing other players before seeing UK's flip.

Also about the setup, scum was indeed underpowered for both conditions, Rika was overpowered compared to the other characters, and overall there seemed to be a lack of coordination from the mods.

As for scum, well, I had UK and Edible as the top contenders, though I was getting dubious about UK at the end, but still determined that she'd better die. Ramus was the runner-up, which leads to:
I don't regret being a jerk in this one.  It made people annoyed with me, just enough to be anti-town and therefore not the person to shoot, but also townie enough to not be lynched.
There is a reason why scum wouldn't shoot anti-town players, an that's because they are anti-town. While that strategy is a good one when you're a power role in regular Mafia, it's definitely a negative sum if you are just keeping yourself alive at town's expense and don't have anything to make up for it. Scum thrives in confusion and annoyance amongst the players. (Unless you are a SK or something, then it's still a dangerous play, but still valid.)

And considering my initial HP and self-healing conditions, I think it should be obvious why I wanted to heal at least once before attacking.  I still was hoping to do it before that phase change too.


Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #436 on: October 21, 2009, 10:23:08 PM »
I'm sort of glad the game is over. Edible was practically caught since he was confirmed for lying near the end there, and I don't think I really had it in me to carry on the rest of the way. Although, considering how often my mafia game fluctuates, if I wasn't kill in a few days, I probably would have come back as SK and messed everything up.

yes, I complained a bit about the Rage system, but to be honest there are nightless games in which the mafia doesn't get anything to replace the nightkill, so I should have been somewhat thankful. Still, I think one point every day per mafioso would have been better. Especially since the damage shows up to town anyway.

I figured the intended use was to wait at the end of the day and count up how much damage townies have had on them and then fill in the points to finish them off.

Sodium

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #437 on: October 21, 2009, 10:40:17 PM »
What the fuck guys, no one died? I am disappointed.

Oh, but there weren't any replacements! Whoo!

Serp

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #438 on: October 21, 2009, 11:00:33 PM »
I'm tempted to call the balance in town's favor, too, but keep in mind that there were no investigation roles, and with sufficient charging, scum could wipe out any slightly damaged player, without warning and without a chance for him to be healed or use his own spellcard.  Even so, I've found that a good general rule for game balance, power roles aside, is for scum to require as many mislynches as there are scum players.  Also keep in mind that if Edible was actually supposed to be able to target his spellcard on the day it was used, and was aware of this, then scum probably could've piled on their damage on top of that and killed me even before UK got mislynched.  Edible probably would've followed, but not necessarily - Drake probably would've gotten accused of piggybacking on the opportunity to get me into kill range, and paranoia about Rou wielding the golden gun tank might've been sufficient to get him lynched, too.  And while all this was happening, scum would be charging another shot.

As to how the game was run, 24 hour days seem too short to me, with players in different timezones having to consider their actions in completely different ways, and the nightless setup meant that not even scum were exempt from this in their actions.  There were just too many things different about this game compared to the standard ones run here, so that everyone ended up flailing around confused.  That's probably one of the big reasons that folks were complaining about not having fun.  I'd probably have set it up with three "day" phases followed by a "night" phase, and work the spellcard rules into that somehow...  Though then again, that's even weirder in a way.  In any case, I like the idea of playing more Hurt and Heal games here, even if this one was somewhat of a clusterfuck even without modding errors.

As far as player analysis goes, there's not a whole lot that needs to be said that hasn't been already.  I should probably mention that Drake's logic wasn't the worst of the lot, especially as far as newbies go, and I wouldn't mind seeing him in future games.  Zakeri didn't have too hard a job of playing scum, what with the townies tearing each other apart.  I probably would've placed Drake along with UK ahead of Edible in my lynch order, so my picking of scum wasn't stellar, but I did feel like the only sane man when I came time to talk about how to adapt standard mafia strategies into Hurt and Heal games.

Also:  We have a new tagline for Touhou.  Touhou:  Hey, at least it's less frustrating than Mafia!

Cut by Sodium:  Did I mention that being replaced by Sodium is a scumtell?
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

UncertainJakutten

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #439 on: October 21, 2009, 11:13:36 PM »
Quote
UK...overreacted. A lot. Yes, 3 HP was a lot of damage, but that's what healing is for. You weren't in any danger of death until your overreaction and OMGUS landed you in hot water.

I agree. I played badly this game. I still argue you were too damn cavalier with it, but my reaction was really not good, and it took me far too long to calm down and get my act together. At least I started to pick up Zak scum near the end, but got too distracted by Rou.

Quote
As for scum, well, I had UK and Edible as the top contenders, though I was getting dubious about UK at the end, but still determined that she'd better die.

At least I was starting to show pro town colors near the end, but as Rou said, too little, too late



Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #440 on: October 21, 2009, 11:14:12 PM »
Hey, I've replaced town before.  It's just that I've replaced more scum. =V

Ramus

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #441 on: October 21, 2009, 11:16:28 PM »
I don't recall you ever tackling Edible, so it doesn't exactly count as having caught him. By your definition, Rou caught scum too when he posted his list-of-suspect-everyone.
I don't tackle anyone.  Not even Affinity.  '3'  Never commit to a single person.  However, I did heal a lot.

Eh, anyway, regardless of what anyone says, I still believe being a jerk would've come to full fruition in a matter of time.  Just annoying people in general causes slips.  Regardless, sorry if I made any of you guys mad, but I figured it'd be an interesting experiment in whether or not people take this game too seriously.

I still claim that set up analysis is key in the fact that it's the only solid ground you get from the get go.

As far as players go, Drake did in fact start up well.  Granted, no newbie does "well" in his or her first Mafia game, but Drake was at least consistent in logic.  Roukanken, I liked that he jump started the game.  Didn't like the three damage part, but eh.  Still, take a break if you need to.  I know I'll be skipping on the next game.  UK, I found to be townie from the get go.  My trust in that gut feeling wavered some, especially when UK made three scum claims without reason, but ultimately, I'm not sure what made me think UK was town, but I did.  Affinity, oh Affinity drove me up a wall as like I said, I have a vendetta against people who lurk.  I'll admit, I was OMGUSing Affinity, but that lack of reasoning as to why me over Drake drove me up a wall.  Edible, I've already said what I was going to say about him.  Nietz also drove me up a wall but I didn't have the most time to talk about him, he wasn't doing any damage so I left him be.  Still lurked though, which, UGH!  Zakeri, suspicious for the same reason as me, shifty in position.  However, the way I saw it, logic was not internally consistent and he moved around too much or failed to give a solid opinion on subjects.  I believe I managed to at least hang onto UK being town and Affinity being scummy.  Serp, um, can't say I got much on you.  You just kinda failed to make an impression on me besides, oh, Edible attacked you.

I believe that was everyone.

EDIT:  Am I the only person in this entire game to have believed UK and Roukanken were both town?  In fact, was I the only guy to believe UK was town?

Affinity

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #442 on: October 21, 2009, 11:20:56 PM »
Oh.  Well, I guess I have nothing to say.  Zak being scum... was probable but quite far behind in my mind, and Nietz was more worrying than him.  Ramus sounded more and more like a misguided townie, but the way he went on with the game and his 'don't take the game seriously' thing was rather grating, especially since he just handwaved my case like that.  Props to him for catching Edible though, but that's primarily because he was attacked first, in my opinion, and at odds with his playstyle of 'going for the townies first'.  Nothing else to say... I think that if Edible hadn't made that slip they would have quite a bit of chance of winning.

Everyone's play seemed to be sporadic due to the new playstyle.  I think I would prefer the traditional setups more at this point in time.  Modding was a little bit of a mess, so yeah.  Setup also needs a little tweaking, but it was very interesting and props to the idea.  I want this to happen again in the near future (though that might seem impossible).

Seian Verian

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #443 on: October 21, 2009, 11:33:39 PM »
Hm... My thoughts on the players... Well, I sort of figured that UK was probably town for most of it, but I was sort of unsure. Rou... Not sure what I thought of him <_<; I think I was leaning scum Affinity and Edible I thought might be a little scummy early on, though I wasn't sure, mostly for the lurking early on, though I ironically didn't notice Zak or Nietz much on that... Edible seemed more suspicious when he put up the spellcard, but it still didn't seem like enough to make a big deal out of really >_< Serp... I think we already know what I thought really.

I'm glad to hear that I actually did play relatively well for being new. I didn't think I did that well, but then again, I'm almost always a little bit unsure of myself...

?q

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Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #444 on: October 22, 2009, 01:01:51 AM »
*the site finally decides to behave*

-----

I would like to apologize as the person who thought this was a good idea at all.  That this game was seen as an example by potential newcomers to the Mafia circle is unfortunate, but etc.

First, I will say that the game was rushed.  I didn't have much time to work on the setup then, and I would have had even less time now, so.

Second, I did an insufficient amount of homework regarding how Angel Nightless worked.  The RAGE point mechanic used almost half of the time used in Mr. Flay's games, which I thought would be adequate.  Actually determining if it would be adequate would have required me to know in advance how trigger-happy everyone was.
Another thing I completely forgot until the game started was to give the scum an extra RAGE point for each Townie that died, which would have made their effort more of an exercise in pushing a snowball down a hill.

The idea of the game was cool, which is something, but fundamentally favored Town - especially the healing, which Edible noticed almost immediately as a way for Town to easily put itself out of the scum's RAGE reach (heal to the cap, and then jump on the one person everyone thinks is scummy - just like regular Mafia).  Giving Town players spell cards was an additional unbalancing factor.  What I was hoping for was preventing some players from being entirely useless (Sara).  Instead, it made for overly durable Townies.

The characters were meant to be more or less balanced with each other.  Rika and Kisume were meant to be WIFOMtastic ("but what if that person is scum?  OSHI--").  I'm disappointed that the Akis did not use their Neighbor talk, but these things take time, I suppose >.>

As soon as I realized that the game had gone from a broken piece of ordure to a screwed-up broken piece of ordure, I told the scum that they could end the game at any time, and I'm assuming that's what happened.  The time they spent not calling the game was more time that everyone could use to basically yell at each other, run each other over with tanks, and generally get their sado-masochistic Mafia fix on without much of a worry that it would have permanent ramifications.  (Oh, and it gave me more time to study what went wrong and how to fix it.  For SCIENCE!)

I would like to personally apologize to the players who agreed to join and/or looked forward to this game.  I try to run cool and experimental setups, but sometimes they backfire.  (In this case, "backfire" isn't quite strong enough to be the term I would use, but you get the idea.)  I would also like to apologize to Pesco, who has provided an object example of what happens when you agree to back up a mod who probably has OCD and a game to match.

I'm not even considering modding another game here.  I think going zero-for-four in modding success is more than enough of a hint for me to get out of the business.

Again (for the third time, I think) I apologize, and I hope you got some manner of entertainment out of this experience.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 01:04:14 AM by u? »

Ramus

  • The Knightly Wizard
  • Trying to be an engineer
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #445 on: October 22, 2009, 01:05:40 AM »
Hey now, no.  I enjoyed the game.  And your analysis is good, just take that again and improve it for next game.  It's just a matter of perfecting things.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #446 on: October 22, 2009, 01:08:10 AM »
I agree with Ramus above.


Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #447 on: October 22, 2009, 01:24:49 AM »
That this game was seen as an example by potential newcomers to the Mafia circle is unfortunate, but etc.

Eh, I wouldn't worry too much about that part. Speaking as a potential newcomer myself, I was planning on watching another, more standard game before trying to jump in regardless, and I realize that we're all human and stuff does crash and burn sometimes, shit happens. etc. And I do think it was a fun-seeming idea even if the execution didn't work out as well as hoped. =D

Nietz

  • NEETz
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  • Normal Person
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #448 on: October 22, 2009, 01:29:33 AM »
Thirded.

Another problem with the RAGE attacks that occurred me is that it makes particularly harder for the mafia to kill the the "confirmed" townies, so each kill they could make would likely be a possible future mislynch they lose.
I suppose allowing only a limited number of heals for each player, or abolishing heals entirely and resetting the HP each time someone died could work.

Quote
The time they spent not calling the game was more time that everyone could use to basically yell at each other, run each other over with tanks, and generally get their sado-masochistic Mafia fix on without much of a worry that it would have permanent ramifications.
The game would really have flown better if Rou and Uk weren't fighting with each other like angry felines. ;)
They should get disciplined for their misbehavior (Pesco and Serp take notes.)

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Super Touhou RPG ~ Abandoned due to mod (Pesco's) screwups
« Reply #449 on: October 22, 2009, 01:31:05 AM »
Quote
The game would really have flown better if Rou and Uk weren't fighting with each other like angry felines. ;)
They should get disciplined for their misbehavior (Pesco and Serp take notes.)

I'm not a bad kitten!

* UncertainKitten pouts.