Author Topic: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?  (Read 6622 times)

What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« on: May 16, 2015, 05:05:18 AM »
So the discussion (in the ULiL thread) about the reason for the Human Village's existance got me thinking, and now I'm in Umineko mode. (Once I'm in, I can't get out. It's a problem.)

What if youkai actually didn't exist, even in Gensokyo? What if Gensokyo is just a small country that was isolated back in the 1800s? It never developed technologically, thus it never found explanations for strange phenomena. It's not that tanuki, for example, actually exist, it's just that the residential humans still blame their problems on tanuki. Maybe the human village is just an undeveloped village which calls whatever it can't explain magic. To an outsider, the Gensokyo Chronicles would just be a collection of folklore. But the humans in Gensokyo honestly believe it to be true.

It's crackpot theoryish and definitely not what ZUN had in mind, but I thought I'd share. Is it totally implausible? What else would that imply...

« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 05:07:11 AM by TresserT »
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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 06:13:35 PM »
Lol, M. Night Shyamalan's The Village  :3

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368447/

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 08:35:08 PM »
You pretty much describe every third world country out there, but...

Lol, M. Night Shyamalan's The Village  :3

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368447/
Yeah this is basically exactly what came to mind the moment I read that OP, it's basically /thread.
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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2015, 10:41:35 PM »
But how can youkais be real if Gensokyo isn't real?

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 10:50:53 PM »
But How Can Youkais Be Real If Gensokyo Isn't Real?

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2015, 03:59:05 AM »
Wouldn't it be hilarious if the incident resolvers used a special medicine to help them fight the youkai, but it was actually a potent hallucinogen?



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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2015, 04:14:48 AM »
Well you probably could say the Ultramarine Orb medicine is a sort of crazy hallucinogen

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2015, 04:19:22 AM »
Yeah, I was thinking of that when I wrote it :p



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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2015, 03:12:17 AM »
But How Can Youkais Be Real If Gensokyo Isn't Real?




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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2015, 03:26:48 AM »
But how can youkais be real if Gensokyo isn't real?

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2015, 09:14:06 AM »
Nothing interesting would ever happen at gensokyo.
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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2015, 01:08:32 AM »
Nothing interesting would ever happen at gensokyo.

That explains the state of the outside world then. *drops microphone*



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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 11:23:09 PM »
Getting massive Umineko vibes from this thread. Magic doesn't exist, it's all a trick!

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2015, 11:56:31 PM »
you know, I'd be very hard pressed to call an enormous burst of random colorful pellets, lasers (that sometimes CURVE) and other random junk coming from thin air that actually hurt when they touch you (but can't kill even though some are KNIVES) anything but magic

like

what the hell else would you call it

unless yout argument is "everyone's TRIPPING BALLS ALL THE TIME"

which, considering the way everyone dresses in there, is admittedly not that far-fetched
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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2015, 04:14:05 AM »
you know, I'd be very hard pressed to call an enormous burst of random colorful pellets, lasers (that sometimes CURVE) and other random junk coming from thin air that actually hurt when they touch you (but can't kill even though some are KNIVES) anything but magic

like

what the hell else would you call it

unless yout argument is "everyone's TRIPPING BALLS ALL THE TIME"

which, considering the way everyone dresses in there, is admittedly not that far-fetched

Someone tried to prove everything in Touhou was realistically done with Nanites and complicated nano-physics algorithms lol

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2015, 12:58:07 PM »
Nothing interesting would ever happen at gensokyo.

I don't think this is necessarily true, considering youkai don't live in the outside world but interesting things most certainly do happen there. Not even danmaku is dependant on youkai, and incidents of the "stranger arrives, causes havok" variety would still be common. The havok would just be caused by humans alone, that's all.

Though I also think Gensokyo would be a lot less interesting without youkai, it wouldn't necessarily be a snoozefest.

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2015, 02:15:36 PM »
Is it just youkai, or all magic? What about gods and hermits and stuff?

Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2015, 03:27:55 PM »
Getting massive Umineko vibes from this thread. Magic doesn't exist, it's all a trick!

Yeah. Once I start thinking that way it's hard for me to stop. Umineko really messed me up...

you know, I'd be very hard pressed to call an enormous burst of random colorful pellets, lasers (that sometimes CURVE) and other random junk coming from thin air that actually hurt when they touch you (but can't kill even though some are KNIVES) anything but magic

Yeah, but how much of that does the human village actually see? Last I heard, most of them don't even know Reimu solves incidents much less how she solves them. Hopeless Masquerade was the only exception as far as I know, but that was a publicity stunt anyway. Flashy light shows and pretty colors just make people more interested.

Is it just youkai, or all magic? What about gods and hermits and stuff?

I'm basically saying what if Gensokyo is actually just an ordinary, undeveloped area. Like an undiscovered island. Gods, magic and youkai wouldn't really exist but the inhabitants believe they do. I guess hermits might exist, but they wouldn't have all the crazy powers we're shown.
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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2015, 04:55:54 PM »
I'm basically saying what if Gensokyo is actually just an ordinary, undeveloped area. Like an undiscovered island. Gods, magic and youkai wouldn't really exist but the inhabitants believe they do. I guess hermits might exist, but they wouldn't have all the crazy powers we're shown.
Well, if we keep the setting as it is minus all of the supernatural part, then the biggest change that we'll have is that there won't be any great border : if the residents (not "denizens" in this case) of Gensokyo do still know of the outside world like in canon, then they'll definitely be able to go there, and the opposite'll also works : people from the "outside", advanced world will also be able to freely enter Gensokyo. Of course this implies that Gensokyo'll be likely to undergo a lot of scientifical and technological change, which  is both a logical conclusion but also a bit of a killer argument for the thread... at any rate, that is definitely the first and biggest change.

Also, there'll be inevitable changes in the setting :

Changes toward the cast :

-The humans'll be... very human-like
-The animal youkai'll be random animals. A bit outstanding compared to the regular ones but still animals.
-The youkai'll be these scary things you hear in the stories told by your grandpa or these monsters that appears in most of the books. Also, whatever natural phenomon'll totally be blamed on them
-The gods'll meet the youkai's fate too, except they'll have chances to keep their names. They are sure to be worshipped
-The ghosts'll meet the youkai's fate too. Also, you won't be able to use them to cool down in summer
-The hermits won't have super powers. Their slightly longer lives may be attributed to some diet of some sort or something
-The magicians'll be a shady bunch of people
-Byakuren'll be a bunch of dried up bones, likewise for some other people
-Sumireko may or may not have her ESP powers
-Keine wouldn't build any shady history related secret society
-Merry and Renko are in for a rude awakening. Like, a really rude one
(Western related stuff'll be mentionned later)

Changes towards the infrastructures and location :

-SDM couldn't have been reasonably built there, it'll likely be in some part of Europe
-People may believe in the netherworld, but they surely won't think up of anything like Hakugyokurou
-Eientei'll be in ruins, as it couldn't have been kept in good state eternally. Incidentaly, it may have never existed since it was never put inside history
-No ministry of what's-right-what's-wrong, but Higan and the Sanzu river are part of folklore
-The Palanquin'll be a bunch of dried up pilewood, likewise for a some other places
-Youkai hideouts (such as the kappa's hideout) would totally be some random places like a dangerous pond or places people can't arguably get into
-The locations that are unique to Touhou, such as Senkai, would not exist
-BUT the Dragon God statue may still be there, since belief in the Dragon God is unique to Gensokyo folks. Maybe the statue was build by their ancestors in commemoration of one hell of a rainy day if anything in this context (damn, that'd involve some serious craftmanship)

Changes in the lore :
-No great Hakurei Border. Everything this implies has already been mentionned in the first paragraph
-No spellcards battles. Heck, maybe no incident at all, we'll just have people who practice the matching rituals and traditions related to anything that happens in their life
-Danmaku ? What's that ?
-Merry and Renko might be intersted in anthropology, archeology, history or something, as the thing they'll be searching for is a reality that might be interesting. Otherwise, I can see them spending their days playing some shmup game, this works too
-The textbook youkai'll stay alive inside the books and the heart and mind of the Gensokyo residents who firmly believe these exists : if they're gonna live while believing in them and shape their lives according to that belief, then the belief of the "youkai"'ll definitely have managed to affect their lives
-Gensokyo's society would get totally wrecked if people behaved the way they did as in HM
-Scientifically impossible stuff'll stay impossible. The end
-Youkai that are based of Western or foreign cultures wouldn't exist in this boring Gensokyo



Might've forgotten a few things, but I believe the biggest thing that'll happen is the disappearance of the great border, Gensokyo's resident believing in the youkai'll just affect the way they live, although that belief doesn't alter reality in another way.

But if we go to the origins of the humans in Gensokyo in Touhou canon, going by the state of canon around the time of EoSD (IIRC), various humans were first sent there to deal with the youkai from the haunted region called Gensokyo : if the youkai never existed, they would never have caused any mayhem to begin with, thus there won't be any need to send humans there in the first place, and there won't be any descendant of these people to reside in Gensokyo. It's something else if lots of people gather together to seclude themselves there, although this wouldn't sound legit  :X
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 05:04:33 PM by Suspicious person »

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Re: What if Youkai Didn't Really Exist?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2015, 05:51:39 PM »
Yeah, but how much of that does the human village actually see? Last I heard, most of them don't even know Reimu solves incidents much less how she solves them. Hopeless Masquerade was the only exception as far as I know, but that was a publicity stunt anyway. Flashy light shows and pretty colors just make people more interested.
Very few things about danmaku could be reproduced with ligtht show equipment, light effects generally look really crappy during the day, and danmaku can be any object. Furthermore, incidents are not said to be the only instances where danmaku is used. From the way Akyuu describes, pretty much anyone can try their hands at it.

Not to mention the question of where, exactly, someone from a closed-off society would've gotten that kind of equipment in the first place.

Also, HM is not the only time that there was a danmaku fight in, or around, the village: DDC's stage 2 is along a cannal that's clearly frequented by people, IN's stage 3 background is a psychodelic illusion created by Keine (who's a known figure in the village, since she's a teacher there) exactly where the village is, TD's stage 2 and 3 are the front of the Myouren temple and the cemetery behind it, which are located near the human village...
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 09:08:45 PM by Sagus »
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