Author Topic: "Deres" in Touhou  (Read 9406 times)

"Deres" in Touhou
« on: November 02, 2014, 06:10:20 PM »
Do you figure that any of the lovely touhou ladies are tsundere or any other variation of 'dere'?
To be honest I have this fanon thing where Alice is totally tsundere w/Marisa. (Lmao thanks iosys and your "alice-dere" mv)
Another thing is that Reimu is HUGE tsundere, it coming out most often around Yukari. (Another ship thingy but oh well)

((So far no yanderes in my touhou fanon filled mind.))

But with that; do you have any yandere/tsundere/himedere/kuudere/whateverdere headcanons for a certain touhou girl?

Please do share, I'm quite curious about this!~ ^w^

CyberAngel

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2014, 12:38:10 AM »
There's not even a hint of romance in canon, but Alice did act pretty tsundere-ish during Imperishable Night, so I think this one would always be very popular in fandom.

As far as headcanons go, I actually picture Patchouli and Eirin as kuuderes, with an added dose of cluelessness about love affairs. It would be just too cute to see smart and usually calm girls getting all shy and stumped.

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2014, 12:42:25 AM »
There's not even a hint of romance in canon,

Kosuzu is a Mamizou fangirl. You can easily read it as mere admiration, but the lines are blurred enough in anime/manga that I think it's fair to read it as a hint.

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2014, 12:54:42 AM »
reimu is canon tsundere for youkai

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Kaizaki

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2014, 01:09:35 AM »
Mokou seems to act tsundere/kuudere (I don't know which is more appropriate) towards Kaguya: she fights and claims to hate the latter, but was legitimately worried when she thought the princess returned to the moon.

Prime32

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2014, 02:32:21 AM »
The closest thing to a canon tsundere would be Mokou, since she admits that her "feud" with Kaguya is nowadays just an excuse so that neither of them will get lonely as they outlive all their friends.

Reimu also comes off kind of tsundere due to clashes between her duties (stop troublemakers but don't hurt them; maintain conflict between humans and youkai so that youkai can retain their identities; keep humans coming to the shrine; be hospitable to guests), social pressure (kill youkai troublemakers; prevent conflict between humans and youkai; expel youkai guests) and personal feelings (humans and youkai should live in peace) combined with being moody in general. Yorihime is a similar case.

Kokoro is... I dunno, kamendere? :V

Kosuzu is a Mamizou fangirl. You can easily read it as mere admiration, but the lines are blurred enough in anime/manga that I think it's fair to read it as a hint.
What about the Sealing Club? Renko has internal monologues about protecting Mary and everything.

Helepolis

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2014, 07:51:15 AM »
reimu is canon tsundere for youkai
Vaguely remember, this was reflected in the ending of PoSM right?

Sagus

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2014, 03:31:45 PM »
Vaguely remember, this was reflected in the ending of PoSM right?
Quote
Reimu: What're you looking at? Hurry up and close the meeting! I'm keeping the peace of Gensokyo!
[...]
Miko: Gensokyo's peace, hm.
Reimu: What?
Miko: So you say you want to exterminate youkai and create a human-only world. But you truly desire a peace that doesn't require violence, don't you?
Reimu: Ugh. Th-that's not true.
Miko: Hmhm, I can read your mind like an open book. Shall I offer you some advice on how to keep Gensokyo's peace, another time? Some "a-d-v-i-c-e".
[...]
Reimu: A-anyway, break it up right now! Before I blow my lid!
Incredibly tsundere :V

Also Miko is totally hitting on Reimu there it's ridiculous =V
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 03:33:39 PM by Sagus »
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CyberAngel

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2014, 05:29:25 PM »
Also Miko is totally hitting on Reimu there it's ridiculous =V

Wasn't she also doing that in Reimu's TD ending? Miko is such a gentleman, aye? ;)

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 02:29:10 AM »
Miko hits on everyone.

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Helepolis

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 03:44:25 PM »
I can imagine with her HM portrait when declaring a spell card. The fabulous pose which only support her perverted line towards Reimu.


Tengukami

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2014, 07:47:13 PM »
I'm honestly surprised I have yet to see that classic Touhou comic about the different -deres. As in "Where's the dere? There isn't any."

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2014, 08:15:45 PM »
I'm honestly surprised I have yet to see that classic Touhou comic about the different -deres. As in "Where's the dere? There isn't any."

Well, that comic (danbooru warning) never had a hard translated version, so it wouldn't be appropriate to post it in here.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 08:17:46 PM by Tapsa »

Helepolis

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 07:56:09 AM »
Holy shit old comic is old. I totally forgot about it until Ammy mention and you posted.

Tengukami

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2014, 12:16:39 PM »
Well, that comic (danbooru warning) never had a hard translated version, so it wouldn't be appropriate to post it in here.

I am 99% certain there was a hard translation. It used to get posted here a lot, and I can't read Japanese. Guess it was lost to the mists of time!

e: Ah, here's one source of many.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 06:24:07 PM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2014, 03:00:42 AM »
This is more a joke idea that i got when i saw this topic

Sakuya is totally tsundere for meiling, thats why she keeps (worrying?/Knifes?) for her when she slacks/falls sleep on the job :derp:

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2014, 09:08:59 AM »
Personal headcanons? ummmm.....

- Yukari tsundere for Ran. She literally use and sometimes hit her, but she still cares for her

- Flandre as yandere. Not because love makes her psychotic, but because she lack common knowledge about what is love, and with her power and strenght could eliminate rivals/his love interest simply for a misunderstanding (lol mental image "Flandre my love, i'll teach you how to express your feelings. For example, an hug..... *CRUNCH* -several broken ribs-  :D)

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2014, 06:32:53 PM »
Doesn't being a Tsundere usually include being angry?  Or at least grumpy.  When Yukari was hitting Ran, Yukari seemed to be enjoying herself in that picture to me...

(for what it's worth, she also explicitly says she beats up Ran out of LOVE.  ....not sure if that's Tsundere or something else entirely, though more seriously it's because she views Ran as a computer that sometimes needs programming fixes, as shown by her narrative in CiLR and her off-hand comment in Sub Animism))

Tengukami

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2014, 06:41:33 PM »
As we all know from Lucky Star, tsundere has two meanings: either loving on the inside but outwardly haughty and snippy with the love interest, or someone who starts off cold but grows softer over time. Not sure which, if any, would apply to Yukari towards Ran.

Also, Yukari's abuse being out of "love" seriously unnerved and infuriated me, for its similarity to experiences in my personal life. There's a word for that behavior, and it ain't tsundere.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 01:19:16 PM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

CyberAngel

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2014, 08:58:26 PM »
Judging by Love Hina, genuine love CAN come in package with what might look like an alarming amount of physical abuse, for what it's worth. The only explanation on how this might possibly be is "it's Japan".

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2014, 06:17:14 PM »
Kaguya is Himedere, obviously
Flan, again, NOT FUCKING YANDERE :), but kuudere is more appropiate, since she is locked up

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2014, 11:53:38 AM »
Imma just go for the obvious pun and say Flandere. Aint nobody ever thoughta that one before

Sparrow Song

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2014, 12:51:26 PM »
Personally I don't believe in "deres" (as in a defining character trait) unless the author explicitly states the character is meant to be one.  Once I categorize a character as "dere", I have a harder time thinking them as an individual since they are lumped together too much.  In all honestly I think think term "Tsundere" is way way overused and overtroped these days, so much that I have a hard time even differentiating characters since the mannerisms are so similar. 

That said, I have enjoyed the dere tropes at times, it just gets stale in my opinion to see too many of them all the time.  I like an unpredictable character myself, more so than one that I can say "Oh, yea, she's being tsun right now, but she really loves him", etc.

Tengukami

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2014, 01:23:09 PM »
I think you make a good point, Sparrow Song. I think a lot of people forget that tropes are a way of identifying sets of character traits that we see recurring across media. That's really all a trope is: a shorthand word or term for "characters/plots that are like this". What happens all too often is that people approach this backwards - they actively try to force characters and plots into a trope or, worse yet, try to write in tropes.

The whole point of having them is to simplify criticism or analysis; not to shoehorn everyone and everything into some box or another.

That said, Flandere made me chuckle.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2014, 01:38:31 AM »
I think a lot of people forget that tropes are a way of identifying sets of character traits that we see recurring across media. That's really all a trope is: a shorthand word or term for "characters/plots that are like this". What happens all too often is that people approach this backwards - they actively try to force characters and plots into a trope or, worse yet, try to write in tropes.

The whole point of having them is to simplify criticism or analysis; not to shoehorn everyone and everything into some box or another.

What I find the most saddening is when a character that was made with depth, and honestly comes across as one of the more unique and interesting ones in fiction, gets whitewashed into a trope simply because they possess some aspects of it (even if said trope is a relatively minor part of their characterization) in the eyes of the audience, to the point where a significant number of derivative works (usually fanon, sometimes even official, though usually by other creators in that case) portray them without most of the characterization that made them interesting in the first place. I find Tsundere, and to a rarer extent Yandere, to be the most common flanderization offenders for some reason.

I guess part of why some write in tropes, in more detail-constrained works at least, is to provide a way for audiences to quickly get an understanding of a character without needing to devote too many words or scenes or whatever to them. Still feels disappointing when a multifaceted character gets portrayed in a one-dimensional manner, though.



...Heheh. "Flandrezation".


Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2014, 02:24:16 PM »
It can be useful if you want to build up a basic concept for a character (For new fans and/or people not familiar with the character)


(Btw, that "Flanderization", is that a real word ? :o )

CyberAngel

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2014, 03:16:31 PM »
(Btw, that "Flanderization", is that a real word ? :o )

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flanderization

Warning: TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life Vocabulary

Tengukami

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2014, 03:29:28 PM »
It can be useful if you want to build up a basic concept for a character (For new fans and/or people not familiar with the character)

I disagree. Starting with a trope(s) and then building the character around it is backwards. It will create a flat, predictable and one-dimensional character, because their conceptual foundation is literally a stereotype.

Using what is supposed to be a tool for spotting template patterns in character traits and plot devices to create characters and plots is like starting with a stereotype and building a person around it. It might be easier but your character will read like a template; not a person.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2014, 10:44:32 PM »
(Btw, that "Flanderization", is that a real word ? :o )

Only for those who use tvtropes or urbandictionary. (Also, it has nothing to do with Flandre, it describes when a character becomes one-dimensional by exaggerating one trait to the point of all others dropping by the wayside over time. See: Flanders from the Simpsons)

I disagree. Starting with a trope(s) and then building the character around it is backwards. It will create a flat, predictable and one-dimensional character, because their conceptual foundation is literally a stereotype.

Using what is supposed to be a tool for spotting template patterns in character traits and plot devices to create characters and plots is like starting with a stereotype and building a person around it. It might be easier but your character will read like a template; not a person.

I do agree that building from tropes or archetypes upwards tends to make a flat character with quirks tacked on for "depth", but I also think it's possible to portray a character that in the author's mind has depth using these devices in a detail-constrained medium. Take EoSD, for example. With only a  few lines of dialogue for each new character, the most efficient way to present the audience with an understanding of what the character is (probably) like is to use tropes and the like. Sickly mage in a library? Probably stronger than her station would imply if not for her illness, spends almost all her time reading quietly, not particularly outgoing, likely doesn't take the initiative much. You could have the most well developed character in the world, but if you only have a paragraph to describe their personality, history, motivations or whatever in, it will probably end up feeling like a rush job. At the worst, the sheer number of adjectives thrown in at once could make it sound like an author favourite or mary sue.
In the best case, of course, after this initial portrayal other works would flesh out the characters, as was the case in PMiSS and the like.

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Re: "Deres" in Touhou
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2014, 01:20:08 AM »
Reimu as thinly-veiled tsundere, the type where both parties pretty much know each other's true feelings but it's more of a knee-jerk reaction. My Yukari-BF's most common nickname for me is 'bitch' and mine is 'piece of shit' for him. We are very loving.

Aside from that, Alice for Marisa (but a much more clever and less overly emotional outburst tsundere type, like their dialog in IN). No one else comes to mind immediately.

In general, I don't really think of many people in Gensokyo as being a full on 'tsundere and doesn't know they're tsundere' type. They've spent enough time around each other and Gensokyo has existed long enough that it's kinda silly to keep those kind of reservations completely seriously for any length of time.
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