Town Mafia (Game Over)

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

So, I wholly approve of BBM's WINNING STRATEGY. More people should adhere to it.
Vhaltz's latest post is pretty tryhard. Wondering why the other people doing similar things weren't also fishing for cred. Just putting that out there for now.

[ActionDan]

##Vote: Shadoweh

just like old times.

[BT]

shadoweh im actually not getting a townrid on you this game WAT IS DIS

Set your place on the Serious-O-Meter.

Cool.

Vhaltz's latest post is pretty tryhard. Wondering why the other people doing similar things weren't also fishing for cred. Just putting that out there for now.

No one was doing anything similar. Unless you mean lame "I'm scum" jokes which isn't really the same thing (and aren't lame when I do it).

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Unless you mean lame "I'm scum" jokes which isn't really the same thing (and aren't lame when I do it).

They pretty much are though.

[BT]

They pretty much are though.

Jokes are jokes that anyone can blend in with regardless of alignment.

"I'm confused by my PM" is either a real response to an event or an attempt to falsify one.

[WHMZakeri]

First Votecount
Validon98:    Raitaki (1)
Shadoweh:    Serela, Dormio, BBM, ActionDan (4)
Raitaki:    BT (1)
Serela:    Shadoweh (1)
BBM:    Validon98, Vhaltzo (2)

Not Voting: Raikaria, Affinity, Serious Bananas (3)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.
You have 62 hours remaining.

[Shadoweh]

Look at these scrubs voting like a townie. I was confused too for a minute when I saw my role pm, but it's not like it's the first time I got a red role that looked like that. I seriously thought Vhaltz's post was BT because no one else rambles writes long posts like he does. You shouldn't make decisions on what to say because you think it'll make you look townie, Vhaltz, only the townies need to care about being good little boys. You're not a good little boy, are you?

They pretty much are though.

im gay

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Voting? We're killing here. My gun just happens to be broken or something.

im gay

When are you going to say something we don't know?


Personally, I think that we should consolidate on Shadoweh. Remember all those times where we almost powerlynched her but we didn't. And then she turned out to be an independent third party serial killer? Or aligned with the informed minority? I think we should think back to those times and casually shift our votes to Shadoweh.

[Raikaria]

Hello guys.

I have no clue what you fellow rookie mafioso are doing, but I for one have GUT INSTINCTS, and my GUT INSTINCTS are telling me this person is town!

#Kill: BBM

I don't know why. Blame gut.

[SB]

For the record, I'm calling the mafia the town, and the town the mafia. It's much easier.

I was also equally confused a few minutes before and could've done the same thing, but Decided Against It because it could be misinterpreted as fishing for cred since it would be a townie scummy reaction to a town scum PM. Genuine town scum wouldn't have posted that unless they were careless and I believe BBM is much more experienced than I and as such a competent player.

So you're uh, voting him for doing something that a townie might do? That's what it sounds like to me. There's also the bolded bit which sounds pretty self-conscious, with you worrying about people getting on your case for a confirmation post.

##Kill: Vhaltzotsuki

[BT]

Yes, we are using the usual lingo for this game (no dumb confusing opposites).

##Unkill Raitaki, ##Kill Raikaria

Abuse of gut is likelihood++ (the need to find something of substance for a RVS vote). Also no comment on the serious vote which already exists on BBM.

RE above: the self-conscious bit is fine. I'll hold off involvement for now though.

[Serela]

Worth preemptively mentioning I have work most of today and tomorrow.

Vhaltz is super tryhard which makes me lean town a little, nothing else worth noting because :rvs:, but I'll get prodded before my return if I don't say something now :T I mean I guess I could mention Serious Bananas' vote on him, but it's justified well 'nuff.

im gay

shadoweh x k4u OTP

[ActionDan]

For the record, I'm calling the mafia the town, and the town the mafia. It's much easier.

So you're uh, voting him for doing something that a townie might do? That's what it sounds like to me. There's also the bolded bit which sounds pretty self-conscious, with you worrying about people getting on your case for a confirmation post.

##Kill: Vhaltzotsuki

It's more Vhaltz didn't do it.  Vhaltz then thinks that because he is town, other townies would do the same as Vhaltz.  If someone did it whether it was to fish for cred or not, then they aren't doing something a townie would do, and therefore they are more likely scum.

Don't care for vote.  Don't care to vote you.

[Vhaltz]

Bananas' post mixed up what I had to say because he is interpreting the mafia in this game as town and the town in this game as mafia, which calls for some sort of agreement as to what terminology we'll be using in this game to not misinterpret the hell out of each other. I'm with using the same as BT and Bananas since otherwise the whole mafia terminology kind of falls apart.

For clarification purposes, I will use -general mafia X- to refer to the terminology one would use in a normal mafia that isn't turned around for this post. If you don't see it next to some lingo in the post it probably just means I forgot, but it will still mean the same as in regular mafia terminology.

Vhaltz's latest post is pretty tryhard. Wondering why the other people doing similar things weren't also fishing for cred. Just putting that out there for now.

I addressed this before the question was even asked by saying that I wasn't reading jokes the same way since they wouldn't be read seriously. The intent could be the same, sure, but by not being serious in the joke posts nobody is going to read further into them, while BBM was expressing actual confusion instead of joking. This post, due to not being a joke, means that it is more likely to be read seriously and read to some like a genuine reaction (-general mafia towntell-). This could have been fabricated for cred.

Jokes are jokes that anyone can blend in with regardless of alignment.

"I'm confused by my PM" is either a real response to an event or an attempt to falsify one.

So do you think it was a genuine response or a fabrication?

You vote Raikaria for giving no input on this subject other than -gut-, but while you have peeked in to clarify my vote, you didn't specify whether you thought anything else about the subject. I know you have mentioned that you'll withhold judgement, but still.



Re: Shadoweh and Bananas.

I was addressing the idea because upon thinking about it for a second, anybody would realize that not only was expressing confusion over the turnover irrelevant, but it could be misunderstood (making it a Pretty Bad Idea as -general mafia town-). Being clear and avoiding misunderstandings as -general mafia town- means less people willing to -general mafia lynch- you, and while -general mafia scum- further their wincon this way, so does -general mafia town- by avoiding their own mislynch. The difference here is that:

- Being careless and posting something that could be misunderstood --> Contrary to a -general mafia town- wincon since misunderstandings could get you -general mafia lynched-.

- Posting it on purpose to get cred --> Furthers scum wincon since they'd figure nobody would take a confirmation post seriously enough to -general mafia lynch- them D1, whereas posting it on purpose to see if they'd get -general mafia town cred- from somebody who happens to read it as a genuine reaction would further a -general mafia scum- win condition.

I can't really say much else about -self consciousness- if you don't understand the difference after that. I like not being misunderstood and you can see that littered all over my posts in the forum, not only mafia. Plus, if you're implying that -general mafia town- would post whatever came into their heads without thinking or filtering what they would think is relevant, everybody would post like Serela, and that just doesn't happen.


Cut by Serela I wrote out the earlier post in 15-20 minutes, if you've had time to read the thread then as -general mafia town- you must have thought something relevant that you could post as you read through since you would be -general mafia scumhunting-, do you really have nothing else to comment on?

I almost forgot to mention another thing (clearly these posts aren't long enough).
@BT Raikaria is running into the game with a BBM vote on -gut-. Wouldn't it be easier for scum to join the wagon by sheeping the already existent reasoning to vote him?

Cut, getting this out there.

[BT]

Once I chip in fully you'll get my opinion on that.

As for Raikaria: scum are going to first fear for their entrance and then seek out effective wagons. I think this is what we're seeing. Had he wanted to join a BBM wagon he probably would have said something more -- it's just an entry post, and I think it came from scum.

[Vhaltz]

Uh... Imma use regular "town" and "scum" now as if they were the -general mafia town- and -general mafia scum- from last post (like I already did in the cuts). I may have made things more confusing by using the -general mafia x- thing so if there's any questions I'm free for about 6 hours until I go to bed.

Actually I think it's worth mentioning again in a more direct manner that the terminology is a pretty important thing and that everybody should compromise to use the same instead of just settling for whatever they like best.

Posts are running wordier and slower than usual because Mitsuki and I are trying to reach an agreement in everything before posting. There's this idea we're discussing that he'd be prideful enough not to want to give off a -weak/confused- image of himself, which would make the post likelier to be a scum strategy for cred, but I haven't played against BBM until now so I figured I'd put this out there to see if we can get more input on this.

@Dan: While I personally like to avoid misunderstandings and I accept that it could ultimately be an issue of being subjective, it's the best I've got right now, and I think I clarified well enough in the post above how it's a Pretty Bad post from town perspective (and experienced player) or a Pretty Good Idea from scum perspective. Do you still think the same after that?

[Shadoweh]

Actually I think it's worth mentioning again in a more direct manner that the terminology is a pretty important thing and that everybody should compromise to use the same instead of just settling for whatever they like best.

Look, my role pm says Mafia. I'm not going to call myself Town just because it's less confusing somehow when our roles say MAFIA. It's not that hard to reverse your terminology for one game. If it's really that hard talk about it as 'the guys we want to lynch' or something.

As for BBM being Pride-ful, someone commented that the more pro-town he seems the more you should lynch him for being scum. He hasn't said enough for me to get a bead on that yet (not that I'm very good at judging it >_> ) I'll just ask Conq when he inevitably replaces in. I have to admit when it comes to you that if you can be scum and make up this imaginary argument I'd be pretty impressed with you.

##Unkill ##Kill: Raikaria BECAUSE GUT. TASTE THE IRONY.
More seriously the wording of 'fellow rookie mafioso' sounds like one of those cop movies where the comedic sidekick is trying to fit in with the gangsters. If we were watching this movie we'd be yelling at the screen to punch the obvious buddy-cop in the gut.

Serela that post, what the fuck is it. I get that it's the first thoughts that pop in your head, but I have no idea what you mean by Serious Banana's 'justified vote' and it sounds kind of like 'other people have explained it's justified so thumbs up!' Tell me if you're agreeing with other people or actually having your own thoughts.

[WHMZakeri]

First DEATHCOUNT
Validon98:    Raitaki (1)
Shadoweh:    Serela, Dormio, BBM, ActionDan (4)
Vhaltzo:    Serious Bananas (1)
Raikaria:    BT, Shadoweh (2)
BBM:    Validon98, Vhaltzo, Raikaria (3)

Not Voting: Affinity (1)

With 12 alive, it's takes 7 to decide the night kill.
You have  51.7 hours remaining.
Activity Notice If an active player does not vote at least once per day phase (you may vote and unvote, or vote: no lynch), I will inquire for replacements (before day 2) or modkill them in the morning (Day 3 and onward)
A flavor edited version of this rule will be put into the OP.

[Raikaria]

Wait, there was a serious vote on BBM? I hadn't actually had time to read the thread. Been pretty busy!

Reading it, I see why the quote didn't stand out in my flash-read. There's nothing of value there. The vote isn't valid.

I think you're attempting to make a little bit too much something out of what is really nothing BT. Just 'cause I'm late to RVS because Britland and I'm busy so don't have time to make a proper post and read what is mostly RVS shenanigans deeply isn't a reason to be jumped on.

[Shadoweh]

I think you can consider anything Vhaltz has said to be serious non-rvs thinking. At this point you can at least say what you think about the shenanigans and how they reflect on the people doing them. If we all just say 'that means nothing going back to sleep' we're not going to get alot out of the day.

[Raikaria]

Except I don't think there is anything in Vhaltz's point. I'm not sure where to go, who to push, and where to start.

I'm usually pretty good at making someone try and stab at me, and then other people latch on that and then we get progress. Usually the one who attacked me being the scums.

[Raikaria]

Except this game they're the towns.

[BigBangMeteor]

@Shadoweh- Nah, I just play better in anonymous games than regular games, for the most part, regardless of my alignment.

As for Vhaltzo's argument, it's not an attempt to fish for cred. All I said was that looking at my PM confused me- that could have been by seeing I was "mafia", but not seeing who my scumbuddies were (what happened), or seeing I was "town", but with buddies randomly. So the act of being confused upon seeing my PM isn't limited to only townies (in this situation I'm using the regular meaning of town), and as such I don't think that my first post can be seen as an attempt to gain cred, because it doesn't actually give any cred.

I'm also not even that experienced a player, lol. Pretty sure at least a good chunk of the players in this game have played longer than I have.

Additionally, your premise makes little sense to me. Why would you only post what I did if you were careless? Almost anything can be misinterpreted. Yes, you shouldn't go out of your way to be purposefully vague, but I'm not going to double read every little comment I make to make sure it is 100% a-okay. That's something mafia do, not town. Vhaltzo's arguments seem to take a lot of words to cover up a weak logical basis.

I don't like how Dormio doesn't try to make a judgement on the consequences of being tryhard. Do you think that it's tryhard in a townie or scummy way? I also don't really like how you're ignoring most of what's going on, while continuing to talk about not-serious stuff. 

BT covers why Raikaria's original vote post is bad pretty well, but in addition- if your vote against me is not serious, then why classify it as a gutread in the first place? Honestly it looks like you're saying that you did something scummy on purpose to provoke reactions, which is really bad. If you purposely say something dumb to get people to attack you, how is it then scummy for people to point it out and vote for you? Additionally, it just screws up other people's reads. Looks like you're backtracking to provide a reason.

Plus, if the scums are the people attacking you, why aren't you looking at BT or Shadoweh right now? ##Unvote, ##Vote: Raikaria

[BT]

I think you're attempting to make a little bit too much something out of what is really nothing BT. Just 'cause I'm late to RVS because Britland and I'm busy so don't have time to make a proper post and read what is mostly RVS shenanigans deeply isn't a reason to be jumped on.

That's not the beef in question. I think your entrance was kind of forced ("blame gut"). Retroactively devaluing Vhaltz's post like that also bothers me for reasons I can't seem to put to good words. I mean, even if you were "flash reading" you'd still have to notice a big post in the middle of RVS and want to know what the deal with that is.

My timezone is worse than yours.

[BT]

BBM you're kind of inaccurate. Rai's vote on you WASN'T serious and that's my point - using gut (even jokingly) to make a RVS vote seem slightly "safer" than usual as more likely to come from scum. Plus I'm pretty sure he meant that people think he's scum regardless of what he does, not that he purposefully makes people attack him, so that's a wrong tree to bark up on.

And since you've already said it, it's time to chip in - I thought BBM was telling the truth about being confused because it's true for both alignments. This also begs the question "why didn't Vhaltz think of this" and I'm leaning towards it being a towntell. (I mean, his recent posts has "town" scribbled all over them artistically anyway, but sure.)

[BigBangMeteor]

I know he wasn't serious, but I was taking it in a different angle. It seemed more to me that he was trying to make it seem more than it was to gain reactions. I'm not as versed with his meta so idk if people normally find him scummy when he's town (they haven't really in the games I've played with him anyways), but it doesn't seem right to me. And in any case, if the people attacking him are normally mafia, why isn't he looking at you and Shadoweh (and now me, I guess)?

[Raikaria]

Plus, if the scums are the people attacking you, why aren't you looking at BT or Shadoweh right now? ##Unvote, ##Vote: Raikaria

I never said it's usually the first ones. I actually planned to wait a bit longer before reacting to votes on me, since usually it's not the ones who jump first. The early jumpers are usually the town, because I've done something slightly silly. Those people are scumhunting. It's the sharks that come in later, once there is a drop of blood in the water.

Besides, how often do I *not* get ED1 wagoned? You may not know BBM, but it's kinda a regular occurrence for me to get ED1 wagon'ed. It even happened in Sereliest where I was Romney. I'm just *really* bad with ED1.

And I saw my gut instinct as no worse than things like this as 'reasoning' for RVS:

True.
With that said...

##Kill: BigBangMeteor

REVENGE.

My gut instinct said my RVS should go on BBM. That's it. I didn't mean anything more, anything less. If being honest for my reason for placing RVS is a lynching reason, fine. If being too busy to comment on something that I saw as relatively unimportant and weak is bad, fine.

[Shadoweh]

Maybe he's not looking at me because I'm a Vixatious Vixen. I've taken to ignoring Dormio completely since talking to him only escalates into wall-posts of horrors but I supose I should prod him towards opinions on people so he stops sliding delightfully into murderating victories.

I don't think Vhaltz has been scum yet. His posts just as BT said, seem to write Innocent Child in flowery handwriting everywhere. Raikaria on the other hand seems to get nasty attention more often. 'im waiting' isn't a satisfying argument towards unvoting you Rai, the best way for scum to get people off of them is to not say anything until a shiny object distracts people. (Cut naturally by Rai actually posting something better) This kind of argument is more defensive then useful. The difference between GUT and what Validon posted is one yours can later be argued to be serious, and Validon isn't. It kind of looks like you're backing down out of fear because people jumped on you. Your best bet is to move on and say how you feel -now- when there are people attacking you. Which ones are teh scumz?

On a seperate note though, I had to check that Validon was in the game because your post reminded me. The fact that he's not filling the thread with ten pages of questions is suspicious actually. Validon what r u doin?

[Raikaria]

This kind of argument is more defensive then useful. The difference between GUT and what Validon posted is one yours can later be argued to be serious, and Validon isn't. It kind of looks like you're backing down out of fear because people jumped on you. Your best bet is to move on and say how you feel -now- when there are people attacking you. Which ones are teh scumz?

On a seperate note though, I had to check that Validon was in the game because your post reminded me. The fact that he's not filling the thread with ten pages of questions is suspicious actually. Validon what r u doin?

I did not intend my vote to sound serious in any way, hence what I hoped would come across at poking fun at the fact it was a gut instinct. I'm not backing down on anything, I never stepped UP to anything, and if you guys have that impression, well, it's wrong.

I'd move on, if I didn't now have a reason to think BBM could be one of those aformentioned sharks, jumping on the wagon. His reasoning is basically 'What BT said' and then twisting my words from when I explained how ED1 usually goes with me. I never said at any point I do something dumb ED1 on purpose to provoke reactions, I say usually someone jumps on me, usually because I've done something slightly dumb. It's the 'first drop of blood' that 'calls the sharks'.

The fact his argument boils down to 'What BT said' combined with word-twisting makes me think he's just sheeping. Or sharking, for my metaphor. That said, it could just be OMGUS.

I'm not sure at this point, however, but I don't have anywhere better to put my vote right now anyway, BT and Shadoweh actually scumhunted, from the looks. BBM's vote feels like jumping on a wagon.

[Vhaltz]

Look, my role pm says Mafia. I'm not going to call myself Town just because it's less confusing somehow when our roles say MAFIA. It's not that hard to reverse your terminology for one game. If it's really that hard talk about it as 'the guys we want to lynch' or something.

As for BBM being Pride-ful, someone commented that the more pro-town he seems the more you should lynch him for being scum. He hasn't said enough for me to get a bead on that yet (not that I'm very good at judging it >_> ) I'll just ask Conq when he inevitably replaces in. I have to admit when it comes to you that if you can be scum and make up this imaginary argument I'd be pretty impressed with you.

Way to prove your point by screwing it up yourself right away in the very same post :V

What's important is that we all agree to use the same one. I just suggest that it should be regular terminology because it's what we're all used to and somebody is bound to screw it up like above at some point if we turn it around.


BBM

+@BT for this one: How does confusion also feasibly coming up from a town PM make anything I've said here (core of the case) invalid?

- Being careless and posting something that could be misunderstood --> Contrary to a -general mafia town- wincon since misunderstandings could get you -general mafia lynched-.

- Posting it on purpose to get cred --> Furthers scum wincon since they'd figure nobody would take a confirmation post seriously enough to -general mafia lynch- them D1, whereas posting it on purpose to see if they'd get -general mafia town cred- from somebody who happens to read it as a genuine reaction would further a -general mafia scum- win condition.

It doesn't and it just feels like something obvious is being presented in a way that it invalidates the case when it doesn't. This makes the case look weaker in the eyes of others if they don't bother to double-check whether or not the invalidation is valid in itself. Which would be most people. Plus I don't believe that those getting green PM's in this game who were actually confused by their PM would've openly expressed their confusion, just in case.

Additionally, your premise makes little sense to me. Why would you only post what I did if you were careless? Almost anything can be misinterpreted. Yes, you shouldn't go out of your way to be purposefully vague, but I'm not going to double read every little comment I make to make sure it is 100% a-okay. That's something mafia do, not town. Vhaltzo's arguments seem to take a lot of words to cover up a weak logical basis.

You either haven't read my post properly or you're handwaving it just like Raikaria has. I can see Raikaria not getting my case after the way he derped in last game, but coming from you this would be A Very Scummy Thing when coming right after Raikaria's handwaving, because there's this bias in decision-making called Availability Cascade that can be abused. The gist of it is "Repeat something enough times and it will come true", and you already used this, knowingly or not, to bullshit your way into winning last game. Town!BBM in Rewrite didn't read like they were doing this.

I also addressed the issue of scum self-consciousness versus regular self-consciousness to avoid being lynched as town earlier in the -Re: Shadoweh and Bananas- part of the post, in the bits that sandwich the -case core- I quoted earlier and everybody can and should proofcheck that by clicking here. You clearly haven't read this either or are trying to paint me as scum using outdated reasoning as if I hadn't actually addressed it (see availability cascade).

Additionally, you vote Raikaria for screwing up people's reads by making himself a target to try to end RVS and/or aid in his scumhunting. From the way you worded it, it's painfully obvious that you think that this is bad play instead of scum intent. Reads like you felt you could add something to the existing case and free wagon hops ahoy.


Imma go to bed in a few minutes and I'm happier with where my vote is than what I thought I would be.


On Raikaria:

I'm fine with BT's Raikaria vote after his earlier explanation. It doesn't apply to all mafia players, but Raikaria is the kind of player it would apply to since he is not experienced at being scum. One part of my brain says it would be nice if he didn't reach LyLo but other is kind of gut reading him town. Plus I don't think BBM would be bussing this early and he's a lot more scum so.

Cuts about Raikaria stuff might read before sleeping but won't comment on until tomorrow. I probably won't have enough time to read everything new and put out a post before I leave for work tomorrow but I'll try.