Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F  (Read 258509 times)

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #330 on: August 13, 2018, 08:04:44 PM »
The boss fights in labyrinth 1 are mostly way better, yes. I guess when we talk about character "balance", we won't mean versus eachother so much as just the fights play out way more balanced than Labyrinth 2 often being a chaotic mess.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #331 on: August 13, 2018, 09:49:37 PM »
Not seeing enemy health or affinity status is the one main thing that sucks about it, though. I don't think I'd be able to stand playing the game without my face buried in a wiki for information the second game lays bare. Challenge level in 2 also helps a lot, first game has no real answer to "am I ready for this yet?" and that makes it pretty easy to overlevel assuming you weren't ready yet, when the boss was just a glass canon type, or even worse, a marathon.

ZoomyTsugumi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #332 on: August 14, 2018, 05:01:10 AM »
Kogasa is actually proving to be really good in early game, with a little extra investment she's almost as tanky as Momiji for me, and she hits hard with her attacks too.

Halfway through 4F now, considering last time I chose Reisen/Kaguya early I think I might switch it up and obtain Eirin/Mokou first this time, though, how does Eirin play in the early/mid game? I've literally never used her before in either game, and I know her overheal is much nicer and much more abusable this game, but what about her tankiness/offensive capabilities?

Is it worth it taking Cirno far outside of doing a specific full synergy run? I might take Rumia along for most, if not all of the game so I could set them both up with team 9 if that makes any difference (maybe Mystia too but not sure about her yet).

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #333 on: August 14, 2018, 06:36:32 AM »
Eirin is generally fairly tanky and a decent offensive mage, especially since you want lots of MAG for overhealing anyways. Inflicting HVY is also really nice, especially since that's the one ailment Reisen can't inflict. Mercury Sea in particular is really good against random encounters once you get past the CLD stratum.

Kogasa is basically a win button against any boss vulnerable to TRR, yeah. She's also got the 4th highest DEF stat in the game, which is probably even better since she levels so fast. It's a shame that the "powerful DRK attacker" niche is so oversaturated...

Cirno is generally overshadowed by Hina for debuffing and Nitori for physical CLD damage. I used her for a challenge run with only EoSD/PCB characters and she was moderately useful, although that was partially due to her being the only debuffer of any kind on the team. Rumia is really good and I personally like Mystia. She can deal decent WND damage, has Instant Attack and can apply several useful ailments. Wriggle is ok too, although her starting affinities make her an iffy choice for a tank until you can fix them.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #334 on: August 14, 2018, 02:55:55 PM »
With Kogasa's new MP recovery, she's probably a pretty decent tank option, too. As noted, she's got excellent def, and her mind and HP aren't too bad. She can spam the heck out of support subclass skills and has sheer force for ailments/debuffs. Of course, she's a bit more at home in the offense role.

Back to 30F; I've realized I'm at a disadvantage compared to many people at this point because Aya is a very common character (that I don't use), and Aya means
Spoiler:
you get a large WND damage reduction on it's blue phases, the only element it attacks with.
Red phase is easily solved
Spoiler:
with Akyuu+Mokou
and I can easily solve phase 2, so I think that's the only thing holding me back. Don't really feel like speccing her out to actually survive an onslaught though, so I'll just grind a bit more. Hah, but when it comes to the final phase...
Spoiler:
I think you'd have to have Reimu, Rumia, AND Reisen out at once to reduce the attack's damage. Unless just have 1/3 qualifies for the passive damage reduction? I guess it might not work like affinities, where only the lowest applies.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 03:00:54 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #335 on: August 14, 2018, 03:34:29 PM »
I haven't tested, but I believe that, since elemental damage boosting skills work on multi-element spell cards regardless of which affinity is being targeted, the same would apply for damage reducing skills. Though I think for
Spoiler:
True Dragon God, you should aim to beat it before it performs the double breath.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #336 on: August 14, 2018, 04:28:23 PM »
Winner's books include Nature, Sorcery, Crusade, Life, Death, and Chaos. At lv3400 his HP overflows into negative, but his HP bar still seems to function normally; I'm unsure what happens if you deplete it, as Akyuu shows his hp growing further negative with damage. He might actually die at his listed bestiary hp still, which displays normally. Since he's not a particularly hard boss, he only starts to seem threatening at, for example, 1.2x+ your party level. I've been listing his vulnerabilities. Debuff testing is not extensive at all.

Nature - Cold, Fire. Has a nuke.
Sorcery - No weaknesses? 80% mag buff and Space-Time Warp. Charge spell is Globe of Invulnerability.
Life - Dark, all status/debuffs. Rarely attacks.
Crusade - Mystic and debuffs. Resists Dark/Light. Deals moderate damage.
Death - Light. Has nukes.
Chaos - Fire, Wind, Nature, Cold. Resists Light/Dark/Mystic. Has a left-preference super DTH move, Doom Bow&Summon Chaos are single and all-target max hp reduction attacks.

Pretty sure he has forms other than Life vulnerable to Terror and Silence, which parties with Kogasa/Parsee/Mystia can consider. Mystia/Parsee's effects are more than long enough to ignore postgame's speed proration for an awhile, so they definitely still work, and can potentially enable final blow characters and Kogasa other than just their own nukes. Kogasa's probably stale by now, but Mystia's passives are excellent and Parsee should absolutely have competitive endgame damage.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 04:46:42 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #337 on: August 14, 2018, 07:09:58 PM »
It was explained in the last thread (I think?) that Akyuu's HP display overflows sooner than actual HP does, so your Winner still has ordinary, functional HP, it's the skill that's bugging out. If a boss's HP truly overflows, then I'm pretty sure one hit will take it out no matter what, since it technically has very far below 0 HP and is therefore "dead," it just needs an attack to realize it.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #338 on: August 14, 2018, 07:15:10 PM »
In that case, Aya+Shikieiki or any [piercing attack character] with no stat investment whatsoever on either should instantly kill any of the strengthened bosses and unlock their item in the shop, right? Well, that'd certainly be a headstart on getting more of the TLB's equipment 0:3

Although it makes me wonder what number HP actually starts to overflow at.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 07:25:39 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #339 on: August 14, 2018, 07:39:20 PM »
It was explained in the last thread (I think?) that Akyuu's HP display overflows sooner than actual HP does, so your Winner still has ordinary, functional HP, it's the skill that's bugging out. If a boss's HP truly overflows, then I'm pretty sure one hit will take it out no matter what, since it technically has very far below 0 HP and is therefore "dead," it just needs an attack to realize it.
It doesn't overflow sooner. It simply happens that in the world of overflow negative numbers are bigger than positive numbers. Which oftentimes leads to various funny situations. In ToL2 small negative numbers are 1-shots, but bigger negative numbers is different story.
In that case, Aya+Shikieiki or any [piercing attack character] with no stat investment whatsoever on either should instantly kill any of the strengthened bosses and unlock their item in the shop, right? Well, that'd certainly be a headstart on getting more of the TLB's equipment 0:3

Although it makes me wonder what number HP actually starts to overflow at.
You need to have over 1 mil SPD to get first turn :)

Also even if it will work with some bosses, won't you feel as if you cheated? :) Boss, who by overflow mistake has 100 mil HP, isn't the same who is supposed to have many billions of HP.

I am really curious, try enhanced big bad and
Spoiler:
Yamato no Orochi on B10F
I wonder for how long you will be able to survive :D
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 07:50:15 PM by Rinnie »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #340 on: August 14, 2018, 07:58:25 PM »
You need to have over 1 mil SPD to get first turn :)
Nah, 'course you don't~ That's what Aya is for.

Besides, once the overflows are fixed, the goal would be to defeat the boss properly. This just allows one to start farming dust in the corridor immediately, instead of playing three thousand floors of corridor (or rather, NOT playing at all...) before you can even -start- collecting dust for the items.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #341 on: August 15, 2018, 09:24:05 AM »
30f
Spoiler:
Ryujin-sama
down: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnN8CgzuDfo

As I expected, it was much less difficult than
Spoiler:
Murakumo
, though
Spoiler:
True phase was scarier than I anticipated thanks to it permanently buffing itself by 24% in every stat before each attack
. Though, I did do this with Iku at the same level as the boss instead of at 0.9x like I did for Murakumo. I thought that since this is the true final boss, if it had a challenge level, it would probably be the same as the boss' level, and not lower. It does seem to be balanced around this level, and not 200+ levels below it.

All that's left now is 640f Corridor boss.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #342 on: August 16, 2018, 04:18:27 PM »
So, uh, don't know if this has already been posted, I don't recall seeing it though. It seems like, if an extra attacker gets killed by a counter and (presumably) Extra Attack was supposed to trigger, the game crashes. At least, I'm guessing that's why the game crashed after Orin got killed by a counterattack.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #343 on: August 16, 2018, 05:06:47 PM »
Sounds like something that needs to get reported to 3peso. Along with stuff like Sakuya's Private Square needing an exclusion, Shou's Wrath needing to not be cleared by shredder, and plz make 640f+ smaller.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Xarizzar

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #344 on: August 16, 2018, 05:08:11 PM »
make 640f+ smaller.
I don't get it. Floors are bigger after Inf. Corridor 640f?

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #345 on: August 16, 2018, 06:09:15 PM »
They're the same size, but at that point if you keep playing you're "expected" (emphasis on quotes) to explore 2,000+ more floors of corridor to level up for strengthened bosses- which is the only remaining content, none of which is original. It only sounds remotely reasonable if the floors are significantly shrunken after the end, 640f.

For comparison, a quite generously low estimate of time to explore sufficient corridor to fight the strengthened final boss is more time than it takes to beat the normal TLB after starting a New Game on 1F, aka well over 100 hours.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 06:13:49 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #346 on: August 16, 2018, 07:45:41 PM »
speaking of that 100 hour trip, I've just confirmed after a break that the "plus disk start" cutscene is still translated even though everything else to do with floor is having problems except boss rush. Now it's time to Yuyuko DTH cheese floor 21 for a while because I don't feel like doing "postgame" and would like to just jump straight to B1.

ZoomyTsugumi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #347 on: August 19, 2018, 04:00:44 AM »
So I've just switched to a new computer and transferred all my LoT2 files over but now my font is all messed up for the English patch. Anyone know which font I need to obtain to fix it again?

EDIT: Oof, I'm a goof nevermind. I just forgot to change to Japanese locale and it did the trick.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 05:53:14 AM by ZoomyTsugumi »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #348 on: August 20, 2018, 03:26:08 PM »
Finally defeated king,on my way to complete 30F
Spoiler:
i expected the holy version of touhou bosses to be random encounters like in LoT1,not another pack of bosses,AGAIN
thats gonna take a while,i barely managed to beat king with some RNG persistence

Also,not sure if its just me but MAG attackers feel on the weak side here compared to LoT1,i might be biased because my whole party is dedicated on setting up flandre
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 04:53:31 PM by DarkAtma »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #349 on: August 20, 2018, 04:52:30 PM »
Finally defeated king,on my way to complete 30F
Spoiler:
i expected the holy version of touhou bosses to be random encounters like in LoT1,not another pack of bosses,AGAIN
thats gonna take a while,i barely managed to beat king with some RNG persistence
Spoiler:
They respawn when you leave the dungeon, so you definitely want to overlevel and then just blow through them. Beating all of them in a row is still a mild challenge due to mp/tp, when you're several hundred levels over.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #350 on: August 20, 2018, 06:36:18 PM »
Also,not sure if its just me but MAG attackers feel on the weak side here compared to LoT1

Really? I mean, personally the only pure mage I used successfully throughout LoT1 is Yuyuko - most other mages were either badly outclassed (Mokou) or lost gas in the PD due to the mediocre multipliers of their spells (Alice, Patchy). On the other hand, LoT2 has such powerful nukes as Kanako, Miko (well, at least until you get into rly high levels), Utsuho, Yukari, etc.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #351 on: August 20, 2018, 07:55:51 PM »
Really? I mean, personally the only pure mage I used successfully throughout LoT1 is Yuyuko - most other mages were either badly outclassed (Mokou) or lost gas in the PD due to the mediocre multipliers of their spells (Alice, Patchy). On the other hand, LoT2 has such powerful nukes as Kanako, Miko (well, at least until you get into rly high levels), Utsuho, Yukari, etc.

i used mostly marisa,kaguya and utsuho on LoT1,in LoT2 i got none,relying purely on flandre for damage

also i find funny aya,meiling and nitori are borderline broken in both games
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 09:35:44 PM by DarkAtma »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #352 on: August 20, 2018, 10:28:17 PM »
also i find funny aya,meiling and nitori are borderline broken in both games

Aya is really good in both games, but ever since Diva was nerfed, I wouldn't say it's borderline broken in LoT2. Good support (mainly the 20000 ATB skill, as well as speed buffing), but her attack potential is not that great, and speed becomes nearly pointless much faster than in LoT1. Also, it's worth noting that there's a lot more gear in LoT2's main game (compared to LoT1's main game) which buffs both speed and an offensive stat, which makes speed buffing a bit less impactful.

Meiling is a good tank in LoT1, but nowhere near broken. Sure, she's durable, but that's really all she has going for her. Other than taking blows, she can heal herself (which, again, simply makes her more durable), deal filler damage and heal status ailments (which are actually less of an issue in LoT1 than LoT2, since there're less status ailments and status resistant gear with good stats is much more readily available than in LoT2). Even in the maingame, I generally kept Ran in the tank slot unless I really needed Meiling to survive something (like Fujiyama Volcano or Flowing Hellfire), because Ran can actually make use of her turns to support her team significantly. Later in the game, Keine and Yukari are even better at that.
As for Meiling in LoT2... I don't have much experience with her before postgame. What I noticed is that she deals respectable damage now, but most of the issues noted above still linger - especially when you consider that, in LoT2, you'd rather use something like Mokou if you REALLY need to survive something.

As for Nitori... yes, I am actually appalled by how 3peso managed to make Nitori the best nuke in both games. In LoT2, actually, the difference evens out eventually. Not so in LoT1, where Nitori is basically a must for any seriously competitive team - she's really that good lol.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #353 on: August 21, 2018, 01:50:42 AM »
As for Meiling in LoT2... I don't have much experience with her before postgame. What I noticed is that she deals respectable damage now, but most of the issues noted above still linger - especially when you consider that, in LoT2, you'd rather use something like Mokou if you REALLY need to survive something.
In LoT2, she shines far more as a bulky attacker than a tank, actually; heck, her best passive explicitly only works when she's NOT in the tank slot. Mountain Breaker is just ridiculous- huge formula, super cheap, pierces half defense, good delay... and she gets enormous damage reduction and speed boosts, in addition to her healing abilities. She's pretty amazing without any SDM boost. And she's got one of the best elements on the side, SPI, with mega low delay and cost.

Originally her base attack was fairly low, but in one of the rebalance patches it was GREATLY raised, and thus she became a juggernaut.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #354 on: August 21, 2018, 02:43:30 AM »
Yeah, Meiling may just be one of the best characters in the game period, if not straight up THE best. Durable, has support utility that makes no sacrifices for an offensive build, defense piercing, high power even without it, and Brilliant Light Gem positively MELTS anything weak to it. The best part about her; there's no "optimal gamephase" for her either. No "trash early, great late" tradeoffs there, Meiling rules out of the gate and stays consistently awesome pretty much forever.

She may not tank like the best, hit as hard as the big nukers, or heal as well as any dedicated healer, but the fact that she can do all of those well at the same time makes her too versatile to pass up IMO.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #355 on: August 22, 2018, 09:27:43 AM »
In LoT2, she shines far more as a bulky attacker than a tank, actually; heck, her best passive explicitly only works when she's NOT in the tank slot. Mountain Breaker is just ridiculous- huge formula, super cheap, pierces half defense, good delay... and she gets enormous damage reduction and speed boosts, in addition to her healing abilities. She's pretty amazing without any SDM boost. And she's got one of the best elements on the side, SPI, with mega low delay and cost.

Originally her base attack was fairly low, but in one of the rebalance patches it was GREATLY raised, and thus she became a juggernaut.

I do agree that she's fairly durable - but, offensively, I don't think she's as good as you make her out to be. While Mountain Breaker is a powerful attack with a great damage formula, the list of "PHY attacks with sick damage formula" also includes stuff such as Nitori's Megawatt Gun, Yukari's Shikigami+, and Yuugi's Knockout in Three Steps - with the latter two being powerful enough to pierce even through all but the sturdiest walls. Nitori and Yuugi can also become quite durable, while Yukari benefits from having a "smaller" and arguably much more versatile family than Meiling's.

This is not to say, again, that Meiling isn't strong - I tried her along with Flandre in the late game, and she's good - but I don't see how she's broken in the same way, for example, Nitori is.

ZoomyTsugumi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #356 on: August 22, 2018, 10:36:24 AM »
Mountain breaker's piercing is still really insane though and it's easy to use because the character it belongs to has pretty much no drawbacks anyway. It's definitely not nuke tier damage but it's got the potential to hit fairly hard on bosses where most everyone is doing little to no damage, you can even pull some notable numbers in a tanky build. She's not a stellar attacker like Nitori or any other dedicated powerhouse but her versatility and extreme durability makes her surprising offense even better because it's another facet you can use her for and she does it well too.

Basically, yeah her offense is not the best, but for someone who can also be that tanky too, it's insane to have someone do both.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 10:38:39 AM by ZoomyTsugumi »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #357 on: August 22, 2018, 12:23:42 PM »
In endgame, Meiling actually -isn't- mega crazy, due to speed scaling, everyone's base stats going way up, and other characters getting crazy strong awakenings and tons of mp for expensive nukes. This is accurate. She's still -very- solid, but you could also be using, say, Yukari with her awakened nuke or Youmu who has immense won't-die power and ~240% damage up.

But during before awakening, these assessments are pretty accurate. Yukari has problems with needing the family out, Yuugi and Nitori have problematic delays and immediately run out of MP, etc etc. Meiling just swaps in with one-third damage reduction and huge speed up with self-healing and super big base HP (before everyone gets big base hp), and refuses to go down whilst spamming her attacks. I actually considered subbing her Magician because she usually ran out of MP long before actually dying, and with her cheap costs, that 1 mp regen would actually be pretty good. She just refused to die.

<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Xarizzar

  • RPG fan
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #358 on: August 24, 2018, 08:01:08 PM »
I wonder if the stats provided by
Spoiler:
***WINNER*** title
are better than the 10% damage boosts from Transcendent?

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #359 on: August 24, 2018, 10:12:41 PM »
At the end, you're going to have lots of gems/boosts/jewels so base stat boosts actually aren't super exciting anymore. Put it on someone who wants the expanded moveset.

I mean, transcendent already provides decent base stat boosts, and regalia+lv100 affinities makes Winner's affinity boost probably similar or less than the 10% damage reduction, so in terms of raw boost to their normal stuff... it's probably not superior.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore