Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F  (Read 258452 times)

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #270 on: August 10, 2018, 11:39:52 PM »
Yeah, a lot of that is why I intend to stop playing after beating 640f Corridor boss (plan after 30f
Spoiler:
Murakumo
is 550f Corridor boss, Lv 2400 ***WINNER***, true final boss, 640f Corridor boss). The game just doesn't do much to encourage grinding all the way to Lv 12800 or beyond, and a lot to discourage it. I already have almost 400 hours invested into the game, so I'm pretty happy with how much I've been able to get out of it.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #271 on: August 11, 2018, 11:26:51 AM »
Yeah, a lot of that is why I intend to stop playing after beating 640f Corridor boss (plan after 30f
Spoiler:
Murakumo
is 550f Corridor boss, Lv 2400 ***WINNER***, true final boss, 640f Corridor boss). The game just doesn't do much to encourage grinding all the way to Lv 12800 or beyond, and a lot to discourage it. I already have almost 400 hours invested into the game, so I'm pretty happy with how much I've been able to get out of it.
Well, you can always play after that like completing 2 floors here, 2 floors there, a couple of floors today, a couple more tomorrow :)

Personally, I think that game only ends when you beat the hardest non-scaling boss in the game. So far it is
Spoiler:
Enhanced True Dragon God Lv.12800
. And after this is done, it might be fun to see how high your stats can grow, and how stupidly more powerful some bosses in IC can become :)

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #272 on: August 11, 2018, 12:27:56 PM »
Yeah, I think it's going to be a thing where I do 10 floors once every now and then. I imagine I'll probably get bored before I finish even the next loop, though, unless there's changes.

It's fun to imagine doing a lot, but the corridor is just a pain. If it was easier to dive down, I'd probably overplay quite a bit.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #273 on: August 11, 2018, 01:37:48 PM »
Who is currently the final bonus boss?
Spoiler:
Sauron ring? powered dragon god? WINNER? on what floor is said final enemy located?

I triggered something in B11F after those tedious metal ball puzzles,not sure where to go next as i still need to defeat the summon hero

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #274 on: August 11, 2018, 01:47:48 PM »
The final bosses are
Spoiler:
True Dragon God on 30F and Will of Gensokyo in the end of the Corridor on 640F.
They have about the same level but I'm not sure it's reasonable to beat the latter at that level (finally reached it!), haven't tried the 30F one yet. You could also consider Winner refights to count, though, and then there's the Strengthened bosses which have levels more in the tune of 5000+.

Triggering the orb on B11F unlocks one of the rocks on 30F. If you still have 29F bosses to defeat though, you should probably do that first. I think you'll just be blocked by another rock telling you to do that, anyway?
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #275 on: August 11, 2018, 01:51:58 PM »
Looks like its back to grinding,or change my tactics until i slay it

oddly the twin heroes spawned again for some reason,gonna let that slide for now

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #276 on: August 11, 2018, 02:04:19 PM »
All the 29F bosses respawn. Oh, and rocks on 29f will be passable after you beat it's corresponding boss once. That's how you get their special reward gear.

Yeah, once you explore the puzzle areas in 30F (which aren't locked by rocks) and all of b11f, exploration is over. It's all just grinding, bosses, and infinite corridor dives.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #277 on: August 11, 2018, 03:27:54 PM »
So, some more spoilers. Stats of
Spoiler:
Liquid Metal Boss
on 550F. I also added stats of this boss on 2nd and 3rd cycle of IC (1190F and 1830F respectively). On 2nd cycle
Spoiler:
his HP overflows
. On 3rd cycle
Spoiler:
ATK, DEF, MAG, MND all overflow
. I am not sure if
Spoiler:
SPD overflows eventually too
, but most likely it is. Probably something to tell to 3peso that it isn't only HP which is an issue here. Very hilarious,
Spoiler:
on 3rd cycle boss heals with his attacks as can be seen on screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/i1W1ctL.png
Spoiler:
550F - Lv: 2127
HP: 54,320,138
ATK: 11,532,393
DEF: 93,779,366
MAG: 11,532,393
MND: 93,779,366
SPD: 369,602
EVA: 100
ACC: 100
FIR, CLD, WND, NTR, MYS, SPI, DRK, PHY: 500
???: 400
PSN: 80
PAR: 1000
HVY: 50
SHK, TRR: 1000
SIL: 50
DTH: 1000
DBFATK, DBFDEF, DBFMAG, DBFMND, DBFSPD, ???: 56
REWARDS: 152,797,000 EXP; 38,199,250 MONEY

1190F - Lv: 4335
HP: [36 20 E0 EA FF FF FF FF] (-354410442)
ATK: 47,838,036
DEF: 389,194,905
MAG: 47,838,036
MND: 389,194,905
SPD: 1,529,816
(other stats don't scale)
REWARDS: 634,749,750 EXP; 158,687,250 MONEY

1830F - Lv: 6543
HP: 187,107,516
ATK: [94 C8 C3 FF FF FF FF FF]
DEF: 74,908,915
MAG: [94 C8 C3 FF FF FF FF FF]
MND: 74.908,915
SPD: 3,481,644
REWARDS: 1,445,528,500 EXP; 361,382,000 MONEY

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #278 on: August 11, 2018, 03:56:18 PM »
Oh, so it actually does have SLIGHTLY lower void resist.

The overflows are pretty funny considering what level all the strengthened bosses are. Although, huh... so the corridor only advances by about 2200 levels each loop, static. That makes the final strengthened boss' level even more absurd. You'd need to loop at least 4 additional times, at which point overgrinding could maybe get you within reach.

If corridor floors were made vastly smaller after 640f this could maybe be doable, but, yeah.  :V

It seems corridor boss info scales in your bestiary to your current floor level. Based on this, I can tell the 250F boss probably overflows his HP on first loop, which is probably the first overflow (unless one of the abyssal touhous has more hp than I anticipate)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 03:58:24 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #279 on: August 11, 2018, 04:05:23 PM »
I assume the unknown value near the affinities is void resistance. Interesting that its poison resistance is at that level. Considering its low health compared to other bosses at the same level, I wonder if poison could be viable against it.
Is there a convenient list of who has what shared skills? Like who has sheer force, piercing attack, elemental boost or negation skills, racial skills, instant attack, extra attack, etc.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #280 on: August 11, 2018, 04:20:59 PM »
Not really, although off the top of my head based on the wiki...

Sheer Force:
Marisa, Kogasa, Utsuho, Mokou, Patchouli (affinity only), Reisen (status only)

Piercing Attack:
Rumia (++ in awakening), Sakuya, Remilia, Shou

90%+ Def/Mnd Ignore:
Rumia, Kaguya, Utsuho, Iku, Shikieiki, honorable mention for Monk's Iron Mountain Charge, Flandre, and Maribel vs. Buffed Enemies

Instant Attack:
Momiji, Chen, Mystia

Extra Attack:
Orin (++ awakening), Nazrin, Sakuya, Yuuka

Elemental Boost:
Marisa (MYS), Nitori (CLD), Parsee (DRK), Mokou&Utsuho (FIR), Yuugi (PHY), Sanae (SPI), Suwako (NTR), Satori&Akyuu (Weakness)

Elemental Reduction:
Reimu (SPI), Rumia (DRK), Cirno (CLD), Kaguya (FIR), Aya (WND), Reisen (MYS), Tenshi (PHY), Shikieki (All, +backrow)

Racial Boost:
Reimu&Sanae (Youkai, ++ awakening), Rinnosuke (Other), Momiji (Flying), Rumia (Human), Youmu&Yuyuko (Ghost), Minoriko (Plant), Nitori (Aquatic), Wriggle (Insect), Kasen (Beast), Nazrin (Divine), Alice (Inorganic)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 05:55:53 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #281 on: August 11, 2018, 05:18:41 PM »
Well darn, 550f Corridor boss has such high DEF that even with Super Drill and a -50% DEF debuff, Tenshi can't damage it with Sword of Hisou, based on damage calculations I ran. Sword of Hisou has a pretty low ATK multiplier so that makes sense, but it's still disappointing.

Well, Iku can still annihilate it with ease, I just wanted to do it with Tenshi. Knowing its EVA also helps. I'm not 100% on how EVA works, but I think it's basically something like the enemy's EVA - (ACC - 100), that is to say, if a character's base ACC is 100, and the enemy has 8 EVA, it has an 8% chance of dodging, but if you have ACC Boost (which seems to be 10 or 20 ACC), then the enemy has no chance of dodging. An enemy with 100 EVA would require 200 ACC to always hit it, if I am correct about this. Looks like Momiji might have another chance to shine for ACC support.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #282 on: August 11, 2018, 05:43:15 PM »
So, while making some research of IC depths, I see that SPD overflows too and at very weird values, seemingly for no reason at all.

Example: Reimu's Shadow Abyss Lv. 9,096 (fought on 2570F). I don't know what causes stats overflow, because Reimu should have only 1.5 mil SPD according to crude interpolation - which is MUCH less than SPD of some of the Enhanced final bosses. Her other stats overflow way before that, her HP, DEF and MND overflow on start of 3rd cycle already (1290F, 4,680 Lv). She should have around 21 mil DEF (less than
Spoiler:
Liquid Metal Boss
on 550F), but for some reason it overflows into negative.

I hope 3peso is already done with Etrian Odyssey X to fix this overflow :) And it would be great if someone can send him this data (with examples), I think it will help to get to the root of the issue.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 06:02:05 PM by Rinnie »

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #283 on: August 11, 2018, 05:48:41 PM »
Well darn, 550f Corridor boss has such high DEF that even with Super Drill and a -50% DEF debuff, Tenshi can't damage it with Sword of Hisou, based on damage calculations I ran. Sword of Hisou has a pretty low ATK multiplier so that makes sense, but it's still disappointing.
You'd sooner want to use World Creation Press, yeah. But if you really wanted to use Tenshi you'd go for Monk's Iron Mountain Charge, the go-to for any physical character that wants to nearly ignore defense.

I mostly blitzed it down using Rumia's Moonlight Ray (which also landed poison occasionally) and Iku's normal attack. Swapping on Frozen Eyes for your main equip isn't a big deal and that plus ACC boost mostly covers things- I actually didn't use Frozen Eyes and their attacks still landed enough of the time, although I would have swapped if I'd thought about it.

As for overflow stats, it just depends how many bits he assigned for enemy stat values, or however that works, exactly. He already knows exactly why/when HP overflows, for example, having tweeted about that and 64-bit integers. Of course, telling him doesn't hurt (and leaves room to send some suggestions like shrinking post-640f corridor floors to facilitate actually playing post-endgame)
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #284 on: August 11, 2018, 05:54:52 PM »
Iku also has 90%+ DEF/MND ignore if the enemy is debuffed

More semi-random list stuff:

Death Ignore: Kasen, Mokou[++], Meiling, Rinnosuke[with awakening], Futo, Akyuu[++]

Ailment Resist: Hina[DBF], Yuyuko[DTH], Iku[PAR], Chen[HVY], Mystia[SIL], Orin[TRR], Wriggle[PSN]

Ailments on Attacks: Sakuya[PAR], Remilia/Flandre/Kasen[SHK], Eirin[PSN], Shikieiki/Kasen[SIL], Mamizou[HVY], Komachi[DTH], Kogasa[TRR], Rinnosuke[DBF, awakening]

Passive Buffs: Meiling[DEF], Keine[MND], Flandre[ATK, ++ with awakening], Minoriko[MAG, ++ with awakening], Aya[SPD]

Passive Debuffs: Rinnosuke[ATK, MAG], Cirno[SPD], Reisen[MND], Yukari&Maribel[DEF]

AoE Heals: Reimu, Rumia, Maribel[Weak], Rinnosuke[%heal, with awakening], Yuuka[% heal], Tokiko[%heal]

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #285 on: August 11, 2018, 06:00:49 PM »
Unless they're enhancing existing ailments (e.g. komachi/kogasa), the ailment passives mostly suck eggs, unfortunately. They almost never land, even with Sakuya having Extra Attack and equipping the PAR item. I wonder if Reimu's strengthened version actually works now though? It was bugged before.

Maribel's heal becomes strong eventually, for full-magic-build Maribel. (it's pretty weak otherwise) I've been loving her from the second I gave her my first awakening, MVP random clearer and super solid on bosses.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 06:17:21 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #286 on: August 11, 2018, 06:33:57 PM »
You'd sooner want to use World Creation Press, yeah. But if you really wanted to use Tenshi you'd go for Monk's Iron Mountain Charge, the go-to for any physical character that wants to nearly ignore defense.

I had wanted to use Sword of Hisou to ignore the EVA, since otherwise I'm just better off using Iku's Start of Heavenly Demise, which should be a 2-shot if my damage calculations are correct (this is using Frozen Eyes + Massive Iron Crown of Chaos for +116 ACC). Realistically I suppose Tenshi never could have done the level of damage Iku could have, she's just way too strong on high defense bosses. I had figured that maybe 550f Corridor boss might've had lower defenses compared to 450f Corridor boss since it has such high affinities and EVA, but nope.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #287 on: August 11, 2018, 06:39:27 PM »
Sakuya's PAR effect is at least useful for randoms and Eirin's PSN effect is pretty nice for the Great "C" fight, especially since her debuffs are also quite useful there.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #288 on: August 11, 2018, 06:42:36 PM »
Would iku with ninja subclass (permanent 4% speed debuff on enemy i believe?) always have 90% defense ignore?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #289 on: August 11, 2018, 06:46:53 PM »
Well, Iku can still annihilate it with ease, I just wanted to do it with Tenshi. Knowing its EVA also helps. I'm not 100% on how EVA works, but I think it's basically something like the enemy's EVA - (ACC - 100), that is to say, if a character's base ACC is 100, and the enemy has 8 EVA, it has an 8% chance of dodging, but if you have ACC Boost (which seems to be 10 or 20 ACC), then the enemy has no chance of dodging. An enemy with 100 EVA would require 200 ACC to always hit it, if I am correct about this. Looks like Momiji might have another chance to shine for ACC support.
It all comes down to ACC calculations, which are hidden from us. For some reason my Rinnie (Strategist, all skills learned) has 172 ACC (can only see it with memory viewer program) without any gear. Probably it has to do with Subclass passive buff (Strategist Mastery) together with ACC High Boost Lv. 5 Skill. Some other Subclasses also provide ACC buffs, which might be very significant.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #290 on: August 11, 2018, 07:05:16 PM »
Would iku with ninja subclass (permanent 4% speed debuff on enemy i believe?) always have 90% defense ignore?

Iku's basic attack command would, yeah. It ignores 80% defense, and attacks in general calculate using half of an enemy's defenses, so that's 90% right there. Ninja brings it down to 91.25%, so it isn't that useful.

It all comes down to ACC calculations, which are hidden from us. For some reason my Rinnie (Strategist, all skills learned) has 172 ACC (can only see it with memory viewer program) without any gear. Probably it has to do with Subclass passive buff (Strategist Mastery) together with ACC High Boost Lv. 5 Skill. Some other Subclasses also provide ACC buffs, which might be very significant.

Huh, I wonder how much ACC Boost adds normally then, it might be way better than I thought.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #291 on: August 11, 2018, 07:08:01 PM »
Huh, I wonder how much ACC Boost adds normally then, it might be way better than I thought.
Let me actually check those ACC boosts, i will write here later a bit with my findings.

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #292 on: August 11, 2018, 07:17:30 PM »
Sakuya's PAR effect is at least useful for randoms and Eirin's PSN effect is pretty nice for the Great "C" fight, especially since her debuffs are also quite useful there.
In my first play through I used Sakuya with the PAR main equip and it still almost never hit random enemies. It was sad :C Eirins Awakening poison seems to hit sometimes, at least.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #293 on: August 11, 2018, 07:20:34 PM »
Huh, I wonder how much ACC Boost adds normally then, it might be way better than I thought.
So here are some hidden mechanics behind ACC.

Each character initially has 100 ACC.
Some Subclasses have bonuses to ACC:
1. Monk: +12.
2. Strategist: +12.
3. Diva: +20.
*WINNER* Title Subclass doesn't provide bonuses to ACC (I only checked the main passive).

Each Skill Level of ACC High Boost adds +12 to ACC.

All those bonuses are additive, which means, for example, if Diva has ACC High Boost Lv. 5, then total ACC will be 180.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 07:23:04 PM by Rinnie »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #294 on: August 11, 2018, 07:22:14 PM »
Hm, if ACC High Boost is +12 per level, then would regular ACC Boost be +6 per level or something?

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #295 on: August 11, 2018, 07:35:22 PM »
Hm, if ACC High Boost is +12 per level, then would regular ACC Boost be +6 per level or something?
Regular ACC Boost is +5 to ACC per Skill Level.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #296 on: August 11, 2018, 07:42:58 PM »
Ah darn. I was thinking if it was +30, I could just use Massive Iron Crown of Chaos for 196 ACC on Iku and skip Frozen Eyes, but if it's 191, then that's an 18% chance (if ACC works the way I think it does) of missing once in two attacks, which is too high for my liking.

Ah well, thanks a bunch for checking! This information is super useful.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #297 on: August 11, 2018, 07:50:06 PM »
Ah darn. I was thinking if it was +30, I could just use Massive Iron Crown of Chaos for 196 ACC on Iku and skip Frozen Eyes, but if it's 191, then that's an 18% chance (if ACC works the way I think it does) of missing once in two attacks, which is too high for my liking.

Ah well, thanks a bunch for checking! This information is super useful.
Can't you use a special tome to learn ACC High Boost?

Edit: Nvm me, I glitched out a bit :)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 07:54:02 PM by Rinnie »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #298 on: August 11, 2018, 08:41:08 PM »
Spoiler:
that WINNER subclass was the biggest powerup letdown i have ever experienced in this game  :V

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F
« Reply #299 on: August 11, 2018, 11:00:59 PM »
Spoiler:
that WINNER subclass was the biggest powerup letdown i have ever experienced in this game  :V
I mean, it IS a pretty solid subclass! But it's not as godlike as you might think from looking at it's descriptions, I guess :V Great option for adding more elements onto a good attacker.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore