Author Topic: Touhou 12 - 東方星蓮船 ~ Undefined Fantastic Object. An undefined article. (Read 191980 times)

Tengukami · « **Reply #150 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:20:37 PM »

Quote from: sohvan on August 16, 2009, 08:56:15 AM

Quote from: Slaves on August 16, 2009, 08:45:03 AM
playable characters are always like this. where the hell have you been?
In the previous games the playable characters are usually proven to be right in the end, though they didn't necessarily know it when picking the fights. That tendency to pick fights over trivial reasons was always there, but they always got lucky in the end with the results.

It's a good thing to stop Remilia making an endless night, Yuyuko doesn't really want to be resurrected, Kaguya really did steal the moon, Kanako was trying to monopolize Gensokyo's faith, and Utsuho was mad and planning to invade the surface realm. While the playable characters didn't neccessarily have good reasons in mind for stopping them, stopping them was a good thing in the end. I think this is the first game where the enemies are arguably the ones who are right in the end.

I have to agree with you on this. I usually play Sanae A, but after reading her dialogue ... it's basically
"Hijri: All we want is for humans and youkai to live in peace, together!"
"Sanae A: Whaaat? Bitch you crazy. YOU DEAD!"
I'm going to have to read the other dialogues and settle on a character who doesn't talk like a Gestapo officer.

DgBarca · « **Reply #151 on:** August 16, 2009, 01:24:39 PM »

Sky Dream is probably the best credit theme of all touhou... :V
I think that Shou's theme is not as bad as Till When ? But it is a bit TOO bland...
And damn...after stage 4...it is the stage 5 that is owning me...BWAAAAAAA

Henry · « **Reply #152 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:30:16 PM »

I barely finished Normal Mode and I think the musics are awesome.

Syou's theme is really godly (along with his spells, they kill a lot of my lives even in Normal).
However I like Captain Murasa most

Zengar Zombolt · « **Reply #153 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:38:43 PM »

Finally read all reactions to Hiziri...
ReimuA: "Gods and Youkai are similar, yes, in the fact that I can beat the crap out of them."
ReimuB: "Youkai, must kill, etc."
MarisaA: "Magic is for protecting humans, not Youkai."
MarisaB: "REWARD FUCKING WHERE"
SanaeA: "Kanako is Right, you are wrong. RIP AND TEAR"
SanaeB: "Youkai and Gods are different. After all, I am a God myself."

Fuck, now I feel really bad for her.

?q · « **Reply #154 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:44:12 PM »

I don't know where to put this bit of trivia, so why not here?

You remember at the end of Stage 6 when the shiny glowy thing gives you one last hard time before the final boss, right? And when it's done, it sometimes drops a mountain of point items on you, right?

That doesn't have anything to do with what UFOs you have or how many. It doesn't directly have to do with whether you bomb or die on the last four barrages. What it does have to do with is whether you are already at full power when it drops the Full Power item. If you are at 4.00 power at the end of the barrages, the [F] item is meaningless, so the game compensates you with LoTs AnD lOtS oF pOiNtS.

If someone else already said this, sorry, I'm not combing the forum for it. But the last time I checked there was some confusion about this.

Tengukami · « **Reply #155 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:44:46 PM »

Quote from: Hizengar Byakuren on August 16, 2009, 02:38:43 PM

Finally read all reactions to Hiziri...
ReimuA: "Gods and Youkai are similar, yes, in the fact that I can beat the crap out of them."
ReimuB: "Youkai, must kill, etc."
MarisaA: "Magic is for protecting humans, not Youkai."
MarisaB: "REWARD FUCKING WHERE"
SanaeA: "Kanako is Right, you are wrong. RIP AND TEAR"
SanaeB: "Youkai and Gods are different. After all, I am a God myself."

Fuck, now I feel really bad for her.

I know! The "enemies" actually wanted to do something noble, and the PCs are just "lol no youkai".

Ah well, Sanae B comes closest to being reasonable - she's just "investigating" the entire time, and just kind of fights Hijiri by default. Sanae A, though, man - she keeps going on and freakin' on about how inferior youkai are and how they must be exterminated, stage after stage. What a little Nazi.

Helepolis · « **Reply #156 on:** August 16, 2009, 02:44:59 PM »

Quote from: Hizengar Byakuren on August 16, 2009, 02:38:43 PM

Finally read all reactions to Hiziri...
ReimuA: "Gods and Youkai are similar, yes, in the fact that I can beat the crap out of them."
ReimuB: "Youkai, must kill, etc."
MarisaA: "Magic is for protecting humans, not Youkai."
MarisaB: "REWARD FUCKING WHERE"
SanaeA: "Kanako is Right, you are wrong. RIP AND TEAR"
SanaeB: "Youkai and Gods are different. After all, I am a God myself."

Fuck, now I feel really bad for her.

This is each characters motive in a nutshell. I never lol'ed so hard at dialogues. But seriously poor Hijiri, locked away for a millenium turning into a youkai and wants peace. But our girls had to go being bitchy again.

Though we still love them. Right, right?!

The only reasonable person is Marisa who says using magic is right nowdays but disagrees that Youkai's being opressed and humans are instead. She is correct (Kanako , you fool ) so yea. She is the most logical one ze.

Tengukami · « **Reply #157 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:11:34 PM »

Quote from: Helepolis on August 16, 2009, 02:44:59 PM

This is each characters motive in a nutshell. I never lol'ed so hard at dialogues. But seriously poor Hijiri, locked away for a millenium turning into a youkai and wants peace. But our girls had to go being bitchy again.

Though we still love them. Right, right?!

The only reasonable person is Marisa who says using magic is right nowdays but disagrees that Youkai's being opressed and humans are instead. She is correct (Kanako , you fool ) so yea. She is the most logical one ze.

Yeah, I mean, she spends the entire game just being TREASURETREASURETREASURE (which I guess we should expect from our Marisa), but in the end says this:

Quote from: Byakuren

But, that aside, has the world become a place
where it's okay to use magic?

In my time, because I could use strange powers ...

People hated me, and in the end
they sealed away me down here.

Quote from: Marisa A

What?
You were sealed away because you used magic?

Quote from: Byakuren

Yes, that's why I recognized youkai as equals
and called on others to do the same.

Will you support me in that?

Quote from: Marisa A

In today's world ... ...
I think it's okay to use magic.

But, youkai and humans are not equal!

Humans are weaker,
so they need more protections!

Saying youkai and humans are equal
doesn't make it true.

Especially coming from a youkai like you.

Whereas Sanae B's reaction to Hiriji's appeal to equality is:

Quote from: Sanae B

Equals? Oppressed?

Whichever way you look at it,
humans are the ones being oppressed!

I want to see humans regain their status!

By comparison, Marisa A seems to have barely, slightly nobler reasons for fighting Hijiri (protecting humans who are weaker than youkai) than Sanae B (helping humans "regain their status").

PostCrisisJ2 · « **Reply #158 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:28:45 PM »

Well, Sanae A is more or less influenced by Kanako who attempted to force all of Gensokyo to worship her while Sanae B is influenced by Suwako who's not Kanako in that aspect, so there's that. And it could be that Sanae hasn't been in G-Land long and isn't really aware of how things really are because she spends most of her time in the Moriya Shrine.

While their dialogue was certainly a bit uh... forceful than usual, you have to remember that Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, and Sanae are the exception to the humans, not the norm. And while the majority of the other "exceptional" youkai like Yukari and the like don't need/want to eat humans, pretty much all of the nameless ones do, who greatly outnumber them. So from their viewpoint, youkai aren't exactly the ones being oppressed. After all, Byakuren has been stuck in Makai for 1,000 years and probably isn't aware of how things are in Gensokyo now.

There's also the fact that Gensokyo's existence is dependent on the balance of humans and youkai if the canon material is to be believed, so if one side got more powerful than the other it'd be bad. It seems like things are more or less balanced as of UFO and doesn't need much meddling from either humans or youkai.

It does seem like the girls are in the wrong this time around, but I think it's just one huge misunderstanding between each party due to the circumstances. It'd help out if we knew what happened during the endings.

Tengukami · « **Reply #159 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:33:20 PM »

Quote from: Notebook on August 16, 2009, 03:28:45 PM

It does seem like the girls are in the wrong this time around, but I think it's just one huge misunderstanding between each party due to the circumstances. It'd help out if we knew what happened during the endings.

I think considering all the previous incidents the girls have had with youkai, they've grown to be very distrustful of them. And Marisa's right that youkai are more powerful than humans, thus warranting protection. So someone coming along and being like, "Youkai and humans, hand in hand, everybody's freeeeeeeee" is going to make the girls very, very suspicious.

The frustrating thing is I'd been using Sanae A continuously, but now feel I should switch to Marisa A, on the dialogue alone. Ah well, it'll be more of a challenge, that's for sure.

Helepolis · « **Reply #160 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:22:13 PM »

Editing notes:

First post updated with fixed Nue portrait + clickables to show larger ingame view. Also added title image, I think it is pretty much complete now.

Slaves · « **Reply #161 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:32:29 PM »

okay, here's what i think:

if Byakuren was to get unsealed and went to spread her love, it's likely that she'd be beaten into a greasy spot in the ground by the slew of magic humans that live in Gensokyo. i'm also pretty sure that most Youkai won't want equal rights(Rumia, for example) because they eat humans. although the girls obviously didn't have this in mind, what they did was for the best.

Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin · « **Reply #162 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:16:38 PM »

I feel the need to note that, broadly speaking, the characters have always been bastards, they've just mostly been fighting enemies who were bigger bastards.

That said, this is Gensokyo and Makai. Youkai != repressed minority.

Zengar Zombolt · « **Reply #163 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:19:18 PM »

Quote from: Slaves on August 16, 2009, 05:32:29 PM

okay, here's what i think:

if Byakuren was to get unsealed and went to spread her love, it's likely that she'd be beaten into a greasy spot in the ground by the slew of magic humans that live in Gensokyo. i'm also pretty sure that most Youkai won't want equal rights(Rumia, for example) because they eat humans. although the girls obviously didn't have this in mind, what they did was for the best.

I don't think magical humans could do that much. Besides the PCs we only have Mokou and Sakuya. But then, Mokou is also somewhat of a Youkai hunter...

Tengukami · « **Reply #164 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:28:23 PM »

Quote from: KimikoMuffin on August 16, 2009, 06:16:38 PM

I feel the need to note that, broadly speaking, the characters have always been bastards, they've just mostly been fighting enemies who were bigger bastards.

Well that's the point, I think - in this case, the "enemies" are aspiring to something actually pretty flowery and lovable. It's the previous bigger bastards the girls have fought that have made them jaded to this idea, though. Whereas Sanae seems to take this ubermensch master race "the humans must be superior!" approach to dealing with youkai, Reimu and Marisa seem to be of the opinion that humans need protection from youkai, which is a type of "balance" in a way.

In any event, I have to give ZUN credit for the continuing development of giving his human characters human flaws. The girls are jaded by experience. They're suspicious of youkai, and in this case, wrong about being so. I think I'm fine with that. How dull would it be if it were like this:

Hiriji: I want to create a world where humans and youkai are equals! Are you with me?

Marisa: Why, that's a splendid idea! I say, let's all assemble in the Forest of Magic and form a drum circle. We can get Rusted Root to perform, light incense, and eat yogurt, ze~ Kum ba yaaaaaaa

Alfred F. Jones · « **Reply #165 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:30:23 PM »

Quote from: Hizengar Byakuren on August 16, 2009, 06:19:18 PM

I don't think magical humans could do that much. Besides the PCs we only have Mokou and Sakuya. But then, Mokou is also somewhat of a Youkai hunter...

There are five and a half humans who can hold their own against Gensokyo's best, and those are Reimu, Marisa, Sanae, Sakuya, Mokou, and Youmu. Everyone else is lunch meat.

... and everyone in Gensokyo is descended from youkai hunters and lives in a land full of youkai. Take that how you will.

I see it like this: Byakuren is a hopeless idealist and needs to be corrected, but is then corrected in the harshest manner possible by Reimu and co.

I think I love Byakuren even more now.

Drake · « **Reply #166 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:45:58 PM »

SanaeA's dialogue is just the greatest. She's all blindly worshipping Kanako and doing whatever she says. She's exterminating all youkai.

What a nazi. Seriously, hahaha.

RainfallYoshi · « **Reply #167 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:00:12 PM »

I think it's a case where a majority of the youkai are giving the others a bad name by association.

Byakuren really wasn't trying to do anything to harm the humans at all, but she's a Youkai so she was guilty by default because of the loonies that Reimu and crew have dealt with in the past.

I mean sure, if the world has almost been blown up on numerous occasions then I would be rather reluctant to trust this new youkai too.

Nine West · « **Reply #168 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:02:19 PM »

Oh, wow, after I read those translations, the protagonists seemed to be bigger jerks than the actual 'antagonists' in this game. Though, as long as there are youkais who don't care about humans (or maybe eat humans), a human-youkai relationship wouldn't work to its fullest, unless of course, they could get the high-end youkais (Yuka, Remilia, Yukari, etc) on their side to monitor the actions of lesser ones, but again, that's pretty much impossible.

One thing to note on Reimu's part is that her dialogue basically boils down to, "I'll beat up all youkais/everyone who is a friend to youkais," while she herself befriended some youkais (Yukari and Suika come to mind). Heck, her Hakurei Shrine is

Quote

also apparently a popular hangout for all the other girls who Reimu and company defeat in the course of the Touhou games.

Considering the majority of the cast in every Touhou games are youkais, her shrine is basically a youkai home turf.

Even Marisa gave a more just reason of humans needing more protection from dangerous youkais. Although Sanae is basically being a nazi to youkais in this game, she was taught by Kanako, after all, so it's not entirely her fault.

Keep in mind that the youkais in the story are far more reasonable than... EX Stage, where Nue was basically just screwing around for fun. With that said, I can't wait to read the translation of the Extra Stage and possibly getting more laughs.

Slaves · « **Reply #169 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:10:23 PM »

Quote from: Nwbi on August 16, 2009, 07:02:19 PM

Though, as long as there are youkais who don't care about humans (or maybe eat humans), a human-youkai relationship wouldn't work to its fullest, unless of course, they could get the high-end youkais (Yuka, Remilia, Yukari, etc) on their side to monitor the actions of lesser ones, but again, that's pretty much impossible.

exactly. the more powerful beings in Gensokyo don't really give a shit about what's right and what's wrong, so trying to bring peace to their relationship is pretty much impossible.

homing curvy laser · « **Reply #170 on:** August 16, 2009, 09:47:05 PM »

Do they all have tea on the endings again? :v

Helepolis · « **Reply #171 on:** August 16, 2009, 09:50:03 PM »

No. Violence occurs. In one ending Reimu kicks a UFO I think. Couldn't remember whos it was.

Slaves · « **Reply #172 on:** August 16, 2009, 10:09:20 PM »

Quote from: Helepolis on August 16, 2009, 09:50:03 PM

Reimu kicks a UFO

omg

i gotta 1cc this ;_;

Tengukami · « **Reply #173 on:** August 16, 2009, 10:18:44 PM »

Yeah, so do I, so um, can we have no more Ending Reveals please?

Unless Reimu kicking a UFO was a joke.

Slaves · « **Reply #174 on:** August 16, 2009, 11:26:41 PM »

from wiki again:

"Perhaps Byakuren is a thief-type like Marisa, due to the fact that her first spell card strongly resembles one of Yukari's, her second like Yuyuko's, her third similarly named after Marisa's Milky Way spell card, and her fourth like one of Shinki's patterns"

damn it not another one

also
"[Kogasa's] surprise appearance as the Extra stage midboss was, well...a surprise to humans, us! Making Kogasa one of the few characters to indirectly muddle with the 4th wall, another example being, coincidentally, Sanae."

where did Sanae break the 4th wall?

Tengukami · « **Reply #175 on:** August 16, 2009, 11:40:15 PM »

Quote from: Slaves on August 16, 2009, 11:26:41 PM

where did Sanae break the 4th wall?

One example I can think of is in UFO, where she talks about "those red things with Ps on them and blue things" or something like that.

Kunai-kun · « **Reply #176 on:** August 16, 2009, 11:49:44 PM »

Wow, uh, 1cc'd Easy with ReimuB first try.

The only points that I lost more than two lives were stage 5 and Byakuren.(6 and 3 respectively)

The only spellcard of Byakuren's that i had a problem with was the curvy lasers. DAMN YOU LASERS.

I actually completely perfected Syou soo....

I think I'm getting beter at this :v

Slaves · « **Reply #177 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:16:11 AM »

Quote from: Amaterasu-ōmikami on August 16, 2009, 11:40:15 PM

One example I can think of is in UFO, where she talks about "those red things with Ps on them and blue things" or something like that.

i should probably read all the scenarios before asking something like that durhur

Nine West · « **Reply #178 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:17:04 AM »

Reading the Extra translations right now...

Reimu A wasn't that bad, actually. She didn't seal Nue "at least, just for now," and she told her to help Byakuren's group to collect the Tobikura fragments, as apparently, Nue was the one who screwed with Captain and co.

Sanae A's Extra was, "Well, if you're not an alien, I guess I'll just have to beat you." She's the UFO Sanae who would just beat up youkais.

Sanae B surprised me the most; she mistook Nue for an alien and wanted to call Aya to get their picture just so, "Now I can tell people I met an alien!" Really, Sanae even talked about the outside world for a bit and how people on the outside seem to 'only care about the environment and economy.' I was amused.

Those are the only ones available for now.

Tengukami · « **Reply #179 on:** August 17, 2009, 12:32:05 AM »

Quote from: Nwbi on August 17, 2009, 12:17:04 AM

Reading the Extra translations right now...

Reimu A wasn't that bad, actually. She didn't seal Nue "at least, just for now," and she told her to help Byakuren's group to collect the Tobikura fragments, as apparently, Nue was the one who screwed with Captain and co.

Sanae A's Extra was, "Well, if you're not an alien, I guess I'll just have to beat you." She's the UFO Sanae who would just beat up youkais.

Sanae B surprised me the most; she mistook Nue for an alien and wanted to call Aya to get their picture just so, "Now I can tell people I met an alien!" Really, Sanae even talked about the outside world for a bit and how people on the outside seem to 'only care about the environment and economy.' I was amused.

Those are the only ones available for now.

Yeah, Sanae A tells Nazrin that mice are "a precious living being required for scientific experiments in the outer world."