An Untitled Mafia - Game Over

[WHMZakeri]

Are you saying Nameless's opening post was too tryhard or are you commenting on Sky?

I really want to just discard any opinion that involves the word "Tryhard" because it's the new sensationalism buzzword used in place of making a case on why a person's actions are scummy.

I generally think scum are more likely to immediately point to a post they think is bad without thinking about it too much. It's... not that solid, now that I think about it, but hey.

I'm super convinced that it works the other way around. Scum to me are more likely to think about their posts, and I know the way I tend to play as scum I'm more inclined to reread posts and edit them for conciseness.
Triple posting is townie after all.

I'm still not convinced the "It's a joke" line came from a townie being honest, but let's switch gears.

##Unvote: BT
##Vote: Schezo

[Cheez8]

BT- if your point is that town are more likely to get run up in RVS simply on account of having greater numbers, by that logic, they are more likely to get run up even as a serious wagon, at any point in the game. Which basically means that statistically, every wagon is more likely to be town than scum, which I suppose is true, but if we played that way then we'd never lynch anyone ever. Your logic pings me in a weird way like trying to seem as if you're contributing too hard.

For some reason this particular rebuttal seems shifty. Maybe it's because most of the logic used against BT is a hyper-obvious statement that only really applies to BT's post if you misinterpret it hard, so it's not actually responding to BT's point at all. And then it's followed up by "I suspect you because of this and that's totally reasonable." I guess that's what's rubbing me the wrong way about this.

...Looking through, BBM's stuff here is mostly just logic and correcting people rather than actually forming opinions. (...Right?) I mean, this is the only "opinion" I see:

I also get what Dan is saying about Serela. Serela's point itself is fine and I agree with it, but then what is the reason behind distancing himself away from it and going "it's serious but still only ED1 strong"? Obviously people realize that reasons for votes are not going to be as strong early on in the game. There's no reason to point it out when you make the vote unless it's a really really minor thing, which this isn't.

This is followed up by a Serela vote. This really seems like a bad reason to vote for someone, especially since he acknowledges Serela's point as valid. Since when was proclaiming uncertainty, especially during ED1, ever a scumtell? I'm pretty sure this is the sort of weak argument that a mafia member would latch onto and try to push as valid. And, like I was saying, BBM hasn't brought up any other opinions. He's just made observations about the game and about other players' logic, which a mafia member could easily do.

I get that it's really hard to make decisions about what's scummy and what isn't so early on, but that response to BT just stood out as more suspicious than the rest of the responses so far anyway.

##Unvote
##Vote: BBM

[Cheez8]

I guess my point is that even though I can understand most people not being able to form good opinions anyway, mafia would have fewer targets and less opportunity for remotely good opinions, and BBM's argument against Serela is not remotely good. That plus him chiming in and trying to lump suspicion onto BT with logic that only makes sense when you don't think about it too hard seems a lot more like scum than town to me.

[Cheez8]

He made good, logical arguments when sustaining his nullreads but made terrible arguments when it came to justifying scumreads. That's what it is that bothered me.

I knew I'd get what it was if I just posted clumsily enough.

[Raikaria]

Re-reading the case around Sky I have my own conclusions:

1: He's way over-analyzing a ED1 RVS Wagon. It is perfectly possible there wasn't ANY scum on that wagon or something; scum just didn't want to push it because if they did they'd get hammered so hard D2, and ven then; saying 'There's probobly a scum there' is about as helpful as me saying 'there's probobly scum in the game'.

2: His vote for SB is nothing less than OMGUS. It seems he intended his first post after RVS to attract ire or something; as he states he wanted to see what people would do after leaving the Dormio vote.

Neither of these are very good. I'm not getting town vibes from anything he has done; and his SB vote is giving off slight scum vibes. [Everything else is pretty null; but slightly leaning scum is more scum than I have anyone else on my scum-o-meter.]

#Vote: Sky-Paladin

[SB]

NNR, does BT's bad logic make him scum?

AD, how does Sky's weird logic make him town? Remember Dark from the last game? I'd also like to hear the reasoning for your townreads, and a response to my question from earlier.

Zak switching off of his scumread to apply a pressurevote is kind of lame.

Cheez's constant waffling on almost everything that isn't BBM is pretty bad. And then his BBM content isn't particularly stellar either.

This really seems like a bad reason to vote for someone, especially since he acknowledges Serela's point as valid. Since when was proclaiming uncertainty, especially during ED1, ever a scumtell? I'm pretty sure this is the sort of weak argument that a mafia member would latch onto and try to push as valid. And, like I was saying, BBM hasn't brought up any other opinions. He's just made observations about the game and about other players' logic, which a mafia member could easily do.

Just because Serela did one thing right doesn't make him town. Serela's point may have been valid but discrediting your own posts is a scummy thing to do, and a lot of players only have one opinion earlygame.  Also waffling has been a scumtell forever, it lets scum delay giving solid opinions so that they can shift to whichever side of the argument suits them best.

cut by raikaria, will respond to in a sec

[SB]

Raikaria's post bugs me because he's like "these are my own conclusions" and then they're just opinions we've heard multiple times before and then his actually read on Paladin is very weak, so he can easily jump off of it when he wants to. The general formatting of his post basically looks like it's trying to look like he's contributing more than he is, but idk if that's just a formatting thing that bugs me.

Paladin and Cheez are my top scumreads atm. Minor ones include Zak and Raikaria, and AD bugs me but I'm having trouble grasping why.

[SB]

Also Dark: are you really independent?

[Sky_Paladin]

Sigh. 

My vote for SB was totally OMGUS.  I didn't know the acronym so I had to look it up. 

I thought it was obvious that he was voting for me because he had been the first person to switch to me after I had pointed out that his vote and DNA's vote was suspicious.  But then I should have still voted for DNA over SB regardless. 

Last game I wondered why Dormio had voted for me right up front.  And the game before that, Conqueror.  It turned out they were both scum.  After about a week of being dead sure scum was going for me maybe I have got paranoid into thinking any vote for me was scumvote.  The games in this forum are very different than the ones in Megatokyo.  I don't know the meta at all.  I bet saying you're wrong and voteswitching is some kind of scumtell too >.>;;  I am still building my scumhunting toolkit.  Last game ISOing the people who voted for me felt very effective.  I couldn't ISO SB because there was one post.  I had just finished the last game full of righteous fury and never got to expend it on anybody. 

So I had a kneejerk reaction because I was accustomed to scum voting me, period, and doubly so because so far while I've been here, the first person to vote for me every game has been scum.  But you know, that's no reason to vote for somebody.  Maybe SB is the one to break the trend. 

Also nobody is agreeing with my logic.  I can hardly argue that everybody must be scum.  Therefore I must be wrong. 

##unvote

There are still plenty of people we haven't heard much from.  BT has mostly been talking in small sentences but has a lot of posts already.  I have no name has kinda vanished.  Kilgamayan had two rvs votes but hasn't posted a real vote yet.  I am sure that he will.  And Dormio actually really only posted pictures without saying anything at all. 

I think DNA is an easy vote but I'm not going to vote yet.  I want to see how the day unfolds.  That is what I said before and that is what I should have stuck to. 

[Cheez8]

Cheez's constant waffling on almost everything that isn't BBM is pretty bad.

...You were here for the last game, right? >_>

And then his BBM content isn't particularly stellar either.
Just because Serela did one thing right doesn't make him town. Serela's point may have been valid but discrediting your own posts is a scummy thing to do, and a lot of players only have one opinion earlygame.  Also waffling has been a scumtell forever, it lets scum delay giving solid opinions so that they can shift to whichever side of the argument suits them best.

...Huh. Well, that's news to me. I wasn't aware either of those were scumtells.
I guess I'll reconsider a little bit but his response to BT is really what caught my eye about him anyway. Unless I'm fundamentally wrong on that front too, he's probably going to keep being a scumread for me.

Cut by Paladin not making too much sense and bringing up "people we haven't heard much from." Why even mention them?

[Cheez8]

...Wait.

I think DNA is an easy vote but I'm not going to vote yet.

Since when? He has no reason for anybody to suspect him. I mean, yeah, I said I was a little suspicious of him but that's just because I wanted him to say things that didn't leave me baffled. And I can't think of any reason I could possibly have to vote for him.

Aside from how you should be looking for things that you believe and not "easy votes", suspecting DNA doesn't make any sense anyway.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Sky Palladium's last post makes me laugh.
Whatever.

##Unvote
##Vote NekoNekoRex

[DNAbc]

Dormio is still dormio

[DNAbc]

##Vote: sky paladin

Your defend just left a sour taste.

[BigBangMeteor]

@Cheez- I don't see how what I said is misinterpreting BT's statement at all. And he didn't say it was either so I'm assuming that I understood his logic. And SB explained my feelings about Serela.

And yeah, what is bad about having only one opinion? Most of the game so far has been RVS. Pushing on me for this when Schezo came in and gave no opinions at all is suspect.

[NekoNekoRex]

NNR, does BT's bad logic make him scum?

If I explicitly use it as the reason for voting him, I would believe so.

Don't like BT's "it's a joke" defense. Forces me to either look like a moron or brush it off and keep pushing. and the "joke" was hard to see to the untrained eye.

Have been sleeping all day so I will have a better follow-up to the recent gamestate in a bit

[NekoNekoRex]

Darkie is requesting a replace, right? Why is he still goofing about in the thread?

[DNAbc]

Notice the giant serious tags

[Raikaria]

Raikaria's post bugs me because he's like "these are my own conclusions" and then they're just opinions we've heard multiple times before and then his actually read on Paladin is very weak, so he can easily jump off of it when he wants to. The general formatting of his post basically looks like it's trying to look like he's contributing more than he is, but idk if that's just a formatting thing that bugs me.

Paladin and Cheez are my top scumreads atm. Minor ones include Zak and Raikaria, and AD bugs me but I'm having trouble grasping why.

Just the opposite. I formatted in a bullet-pointy way so I didn't end up writing a huge wall by accident like I sometimes do; because I didn't have much to say.

And I can draw the same conclusions as other people on my own accord. Another reason I didn't really say too much.

Anyway; Sky aknowledges the flimsy reason for his vote on SB now; and has retracted it. As such; I see no reason to continue voting for him. I'll sit on things tonight and come up with something else tomorrow. It's late.

For now I'll ##Unvote.

[Schezo]

well you're just going to have to suck it up zakari.

cheez8 plz.

The Serela post was bad.  But it's negligible because it's RVS.  You can read that outloud and laugh it off because it's all conspiracy theoristy.
Why you're defending it is another story.  Half of the game myself included could have your case on BBM attached to them.  What makes him so special?
##Unvote:
##Vote: cheez8

, mafia would have fewer targets and less opportunity for remotely good opinions

yeah, no, never.  mafia always has people to mislynch.

Sky only irks me because I think his playstyle seriously incorporates timezone relevant information and just suboptimal and unfair. 
So Raikaria, town is completely capable of doing either of the things you're suspecting him of.  What makes him actual scum and have malicious intent behind it?

[Schezo]

Oh well fuck.

whatever.  If the only reason for keeping it on there was because he was derping it up I don't really feel comfortable with your play thusfar.

[Schezo]

Oh well fuck.

whatever.  If the only reason for Raikaria keeping his vote on there was because he was derping it up I don't really feel comfortable with your play thusfar.

pronouns plz

[Cheez8]

And yeah, what is bad about having only one opinion? Most of the game so far has been RVS. Pushing on me for this when Schezo came in and gave no opinions at all is suspect.

I didn't mean to say that you having one opinion was a scumtell. I meant to say that your one opinion being (what I thought was) entirely devoid of good reasons was a scumtell. Saying it was your only opinion so far was just a step along getting to the topic, and it was never the actual point.

Anyway, about BT's point:

Might as well clarify here, what I actually meant by "Dormio is town" is that scum being run up to essentially L-1 in a 15p game in RVS is statistically unlikely. Either way I got what I wanted.

I don't really know how much I agree with this statement (in other words I don't think Dormio's alignment this game has anything to do with it,) but the train of logic that you responded with said that if we used BT's logic we'd never lynch anybody because every large wagon would be statistically more likely to happen to town than scum. I'm pretty sure you two are talking about different things. Of course we'd never lynch anybody if we just went with that all the time. BT's talking about this happening during RVS though, and even though I still don't think he's thinking about it right, it seems clear to me that he didn't expect anybody to think along these lines later in the game once there's more information to work off of.

Sheesh, that's a lot of cuts.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Day 1.3 - Votals
Sky_Paladin (4) - SB, Serela, BT, Darkninjaabc
Serela (2) - ActionDan, BigBangMeteor
ActionDan (1) - I have no name
BigBangMeteor (1) - Cheez8
BT (1) - NekoRex
Cheez8 (1) - Schezo
Darkninjaabc (1) - Kilgamayan
NekoRex (1) - Dormio
Schezo (1) - Zakeri
Not Voting (2): Raikaria, Sky_Paladin

24.5 hours remain in the day. With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

[Cheez8]

Darkie is requesting a replace, right? Why is he still goofing about in the thread?

Notice the giant serious tags

...
You do know what serious means, right?

yeah, no, never.  mafia always has people to mislynch.

I said less, not none. Isn't it easier to pick up scumtells from scum than from town?

Raikaria, I really don't get why you're unvoting.

[BigBangMeteor]

His logic for the Dormio townread is that simply because of greater numbers, town are more likely to be run up in RVS than scum are. But that applies at any point in the game. Yeah, later on votes aren't purely random, but they're not purely random in RVS either. As I said, voting for your buddy in RVS is a thing mafia do. And just because people have better reasons for lynching later on doesn't make the wagons any more likely, statistically speaking, of hitting scum. The wrong logic isn't really scummy by itself, but considering where BT's vote is atm (Sky for trying too hard to seem town) it feels weird considering that's exactly what BT admitted he was doing (pointing out even the smallest things because there was nothing else to do).

DNA, what did you dislike about Sky's vote?

[SB]

Also to debunk the "dormio is town because of rvs wagon", i have this. In this game Shin was scum and was pushed up to L-1 in RVS.

Sky only irks me because I think his playstyle seriously incorporates timezone relevant information and just suboptimal and unfair. 

Could you explain this please?

Raikaria's empty unvote is ehhhh. There's more than enough here to form opinions on players other than Paladin and the "I'll wait and see" mindset isn't good.

##Unvote
##Vote: Raikaria

More in the morning I guess.

[Cheez8]

His logic for the Dormio townread is that simply because of greater numbers, town are more likely to be run up in RVS than scum are. But that applies at any point in the game. Yeah, later on votes aren't purely random, but they're not purely random in RVS either. As I said, voting for your buddy in RVS is a thing mafia do. And just because people have better reasons for lynching later on doesn't make the wagons any more likely, statistically speaking, of hitting scum. The wrong logic isn't really scummy by itself, but considering where BT's vote is atm (Sky for trying too hard to seem town) it feels weird considering that's exactly what BT admitted he was doing (pointing out even the smallest things because there was nothing else to do).

...Oh.

well um

##Unvote

This is why I don't like pretending I'm confident in things.

[Serela]

SkyPaladin's explanation actually does kind of cover the matter I had been voting him for. Still somewhere worse then a null read on him though for right now. It's not as if he's actually done anything that would make me think he looks like a townie either, yet :V

I can see that my previous post has been misinterpreted as usual though :C I'll never understand how the way I talk has a pretty significant chance of making people think I'm saying something fairly different. I'll use quotes to help try to be more specific!

Serela's point may have been valid but discrediting your own posts is a scummy thing to do,

I wasn't discrediting or distancing from my post/reason. I felt it was necessary to state it was serious because it was still early enough in the game that someone could possibly actually not be very serious about something (rvs had just barely ended) but at the same time I didn't want it to come across like I was trying to say "I AM ACTUALLY VERY INVESTED IN THIS AS A REASON SKYPALADIN IS A SCUMBAG" because ed1 is still just ed1

I don't like BBM for almost the exact reasons Cheez said, but apparently he's not the only one who interpreted my post the unintended way so uh >_> But that doesn't change that I still don't like him.

I think me saying "gut" has also been overblown because, uh, I followed it up with an ACTUAL EXPLANATION of what I thought about it was scummy (which is completely different from the usual use of gut to excuse having an actual reason you think it's bad)

anyway it's not like I'm actually being witchhunted so moving on (You have no idea how refreshing it was to see that 3/4 of the people seriously pushing the d1 serela wagon to lynch last game were scum)

If I changed votes right now it'd probably be to BBM, I haven't seen anything else that really rings any alarms by itself yet, obviously there's some people who still need to get real opinions out but there's not a point in listing them and it's only about a day into the game so w/e

Oh, wait, this is only a 48 hour d1. I just remembered that. ...well, I'm going to be around all day tomorrow, so it'll work out :D For whatever it's worth Cheez8 is my only townread at the moment (maybe SB but too early to tell and that's mostly for MEH meta reasons), I only bring it up as I realize we actually -have- gone through half of d1's time and I notice a growing wagon on him.

[Serela]

>notice growing wagon on cheez8
>realize there was just a votecount, check and there's only one vote on him

oops
It's hard to keep track of all those through a 3-page chunk of ed1 at once when I was skimming past the votecounts