Author Topic: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion  (Read 372278 times)

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #420 on: October 31, 2012, 04:57:06 PM »
Also, pfft, mima-love? As my last response to you, I just want to make it clear that I only used mima's example as a way to demonstrate that zun usually hints the return of a character but then ends up not bringing said character. TD's case was just one of the numerous examples. As for now, we are really expecting that Byakuren, Miko and cia are going to get playable, so, it's the same situation happening again.

It was only a huge hint if you were looking through the standard issue Mima-goggles. No reasonable person thought she would return. By contrast, SoPM contained more dialog from these three characters than pretty much any character has ever gotten before. They are already at least 10 times more important than Mima and they've appeared more recently than ten years ago. And I'm not even gonna touch the controversial PC-98/Windows divide. The fact that you think the situations are at all similar is only evidence of your fundamental bias.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 04:58:53 PM by Clarste »

AnonymousPondScum

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #421 on: October 31, 2012, 04:59:48 PM »
ALso another thing I was trying to point out is that at least one person was theorizing she must be a n00b when her profile indicates she's been around at least a while.

Tengukami

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #422 on: October 31, 2012, 05:01:41 PM »
I wasn't talking just Mima. Similar complaints could apply to the theories that Shinki would show up in UFO.

That's pretty weird. Again, I think it's speculation. And goes against pretty much anything ZUN's ever said about his approach to the games.

ALso another thing I was trying to point out is that at least one person was theorizing she must be a n00b when her profile indicates she's been around at least a while.

Another way to interpret that is that Donut was trying to extend the benefit of the doubt.

(Sorry about accidentally editing your post there -  hit Modify when I meant to hit Quote.)

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

AnonymousPondScum

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #423 on: October 31, 2012, 05:08:31 PM »
That's pretty weird. Again, I think it's speculation. And goes against pretty much anything ZUN's ever said about his approach to the games.

Fair enough. I just think that making connections of that sort is an easy, if flawed, conclusion to reach and that there should be SLIGHTLY less ichor levelled at PC-98 speculah just simply because I at least think it's understandable.

As for why there would be a Shinki/UFO connection, who ELSE were people supposed to expect from the first return trip to Makai in around a half-dozen games? :V

(It'd be weird for Shinki to have a flock of youkai worshipping her as a saint, admittedly.)

Quote
Another way to interpret that is that Donut was trying to extend the benefit of the doubt.

(Sorry about accidentally editing your post there -  hit Modify when I meant to hit Quote.)

Noted and noted (though I didn't see any edit so yay I think).

Tengukami

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #424 on: October 31, 2012, 05:15:17 PM »
The Shinki thing is marginally understandable, but yeah, wasn't what we were talking about here. And as ZUN has specifically sworn off PC-98 completely, on the record, I think expecting it to happen would be quite a stretch. No harm in hoping for it, of course, like I and others have said, of course. But gettin' pouty and ragey about ZUN not doing something he's said he's never going to do is kinda unfair to the dude, I think.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

AnonymousPondScum

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #425 on: October 31, 2012, 05:17:16 PM »
I figure not everyone has heard ZUN's official declaration on the matter.

I think what we have here is the tendency of the internet to muddle/distort communication and a fandom that is highly, highly internet-based.

Which means suffice it to say big surprise people get hacked off so easily. :V

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #426 on: October 31, 2012, 05:24:34 PM »
The fact that you think the situations are at all similar is only evidence of your fundamental bias.

Ehhhh? Bias? Just...... ugh. Seriously... I'm at a loss of words here. I really can't understand how people here manage to get so offended with such petty things... my goodness. That wasn't even directed to you, so why? But whatever, you may interpret me as way you desire, I won't just waste my time trying to keep defending myself knowing my words won't even bring fruits here.

@Tengukami:

Well sorry then. That was just poor phrasing. To be honest, I won't deny I became a bit excited with the chance that she would return, because she is a cool character. But what I was trying to say, is that I didn't get so upset with the outcome of TD's final version. We got plenty of nice characters after all, but I'd get more upset if the same thing happened to Byakuren and cia. Hence why I used Mima's case as an example, because it was a similiar situation that actually happened in the past, so, it has a huge chance to repeat again now. Does that make things clear?

(And besides, no, I'm far from being a "n00b". In case you need to know, I've been around touhou since the rellease of the fangame Super Marisa World, it was what got me into the series, and I found it by accident while trying to find mario clones to play. So, you can say I've been around for quite a while. I even had an account on the "older MoTK" as well for that matter, but I stopped coming because of certain nasty arguements I had with some users, but that's another story).

Please just drop this discussion here, we aren't getting anywhere.

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #427 on: October 31, 2012, 05:34:11 PM »
Ehhhh? Bias? Just...... ugh. Seriously... I'm at a loss of words here. I really can't understand how people here manage to get so offended with such petty things... my goodness. That wasn't even directed to you, so why? But whatever, you may interpret me as way you desire, I won't just waste my time trying to keep defending myself knowing my words won't even bring fruits here.

Bias isn't a particularly offensive word. Everyone has biases.

Tengukami

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #428 on: October 31, 2012, 05:43:02 PM »
And besides, no, I'm far from being a "n00b".

I know you've been here a while and have said so, a few times now.

But anyway:
But what I was trying to say, is that I didn't get so upset with the outcome of TD's final version. We got plenty of nice characters after all, but I'd get more upset if the same thing happened to Byakuren and cia. Hence why I used Mima's case as an example, because it was a similiar situation that actually happened in the past, so, it has a huge chance to repeat again now. Does that make things clear?

I think "similar" is debatable and is what Clarste is talking about (and by the by, "bias" is not necessarily a dirty word - we all have biases). Some Windows characters repeat more than others, as we know. One thing that's certain, though, is that ZUN has declared the characters of PC-98 to be "elsewhere" and will not be coming back. So the two are not really comparable at all - Windows characters have at least a chance of returning; Mima doesn't. I'm glad that you're excited about new characters and all, but yeah, the "ZUN is trolling" is really tiresome and rubs a great many people the wrong way.

Fortunately, a great many people seem to be happily surprised with the arrival of new characters to love (or love to hate, as the case may be), and if you're actually among them, despite the "I'm tired of this trollage" comment, well, awesome.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #429 on: October 31, 2012, 06:03:43 PM »

I think "similar" is debatable and is what Clarste is talking about (and by the by, "bias" is not necessarily a dirty word - we all have biases). Some Windows characters repeat more than others, as we know. One thing that's certain, though, is that ZUN has declared the characters of PC-98 to be "elsewhere" and will not be coming back. So the two are not really comparable at all - Windows characters have at least a chance of returning; Mima doesn't. I'm glad that you're excited about new characters and all, but yeah, the "ZUN is trolling" is really tiresome and rubs a great many people the wrong way.

Fortunately, a great many people seem to be happily surprised with the arrival of new characters to love (or love to hate, as the case may be), and if you're actually among them, despite the "I'm tired of this trollage" comment, well, awesome.

Well, I'm glad things returned to the normal state now, I'm sorry for causing confusion and messing up with the smooth discussion here by accident.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Zun won't bring the PC-98 characters back anymore, but it's not a big deal, at least I'll still be happy if I see the religious leaders as playable characters on HM. If possible, along with some of their underlings. That would be more than enough to make it a great game.

Sweetness and love~ ♥

nintendonut888

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #430 on: October 31, 2012, 06:17:42 PM »
Oh, and I'll apologize too, to get everything straightened out. I misinterpreted your statement, and I never actually checked to see when you did register. ;^^ Now everything makes more sense, so no hard feelings, yeah?

On that note, Kotohime would fit right in with the cast of -

* Donut is found dead the next morning
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Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

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Tengukami

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #431 on: October 31, 2012, 06:29:54 PM »
GUYS

GUYS

It's called Hopeless MASQUERADE

As in MASK

As in that song by ALiCE'S EMOTiON

WAIT - Not about ALICE

That song is a remix of the SoEW Stage 4 theme.

WAIT - Not about MARISA, because she has her own theme.

THAT'S RIGHT

YOU GUESSED IT

THIS is going to be the FINAL BOSS of TH13.5

Totally calling it. :smug:

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #432 on: October 31, 2012, 06:50:02 PM »
awesome logic

Now that's a great chance for Sariel to return! She could be the extra boss, after revealing she is her mother!!!

And consequently, Shinki would return as well, because nameless SoEW stage 4 midboss is sariel's daughter, and Sariel is in Makai, and Makai was created by shinki, so shinki is Sariel's mother as well! Hooray! :getdown:

Sweetness and love~ ♥

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #433 on: October 31, 2012, 09:29:37 PM »
That may be true, but it seems like it is too much of a coincidence for Tenshi's ability to match both Kanako and Suwako, being able to control both the atmosphere and the ground.

While not directly related to the issue at hand, I'm going to address this, for it brings up some interesting facts not likely to be known by western fans.

Kanako and Suwako's abilities are not about 'atmosphere' and ground in a traditional sense. In fact Kanako's has nothing to do with the air at all. Kanako has the ability to create Qian(乾), and Suwako the creation of Kun(坤).  There are many books on the meanings of these, so I'll just touch on them because the whole thing is quite complex. Qian, despite often being translated as sky, heaven, etc; means nothing else but 'Qian' it was specifically named as such by King Wen. Qian represents the nature and function of Heaven, it carries four attributes of a Emperor:  Sublime and initiative, prosperous and smooth, favorable and beneficial, steadfast and upright. It is the Tao of initiating, the perfect time and place.

Kun is the passive, or receptive principle. The opposite, and complement to Qian. Creation and reception, initiation and submission, yang and yin. They unite and work as one. The attributes of Kun are responsiveness, flexibility,  devotion and humility. Kun requires energy from Qian to create, Qian sows the seeds and Kun causes them to grow. The earth responds to heaven but must still be true to itself.  Confucius' comments  that Kun possesses beauty, but is concealed; it engages in a King's service, yet takes no credit.

As you can see this describes Kanako, Suwako and the relationship between them. Kanako is attempting to change gensokyo as a direct figure, and Suwako plays key roles behind the scenes. Both are required to make something possible. It's far more than weather/wind, and earth manipulation.

So uh, the more you know!

Imosa

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #434 on: October 31, 2012, 10:39:02 PM »
While not directly related to the issue at hand, I'm going to address this, for it brings up some interesting facts not likely to be known by western fans.

Kanako and Suwako's abilities are not about 'atmosphere' and ground in a traditional sense. In fact Kanako's has nothing to do with the air at all. Kanako has the ability to create Qian(乾), and Suwako the creation of Kun(坤).  There are many books on the meanings of these, so I'll just touch on them because the whole thing is quite complex. Qian, despite often being translated as sky, heaven, etc; means nothing else but 'Qian' it was specifically named as such by King Wen. Qian represents the nature and function of Heaven, it carries four attributes of a Emperor:  Sublime and initiative, prosperous and smooth, favorable and beneficial, steadfast and upright. It is the Tao of initiating, the perfect time and place.

Kun is the passive, or receptive principle. The opposite, and complement to Qian. Creation and reception, initiation and submission, yang and yin. They unite and work as one. The attributes of Kun are responsiveness, flexibility,  devotion and humility. Kun requires energy from Qian to create, Qian sows the seeds and Kun causes them to grow. The earth responds to heaven but must still be true to itself.  Confucius' comments  that Kun possesses beauty, but is concealed; it engages in a King's service, yet takes no credit.

As you can see this describes Kanako, Suwako and the relationship between them. Kanako is attempting to change gensokyo as a direct figure, and Suwako plays key roles behind the scenes. Both are required to make something possible. It's far more than weather/wind, and earth manipulation.

So uh, the more you know!
That's pretty cool. I've been wondering about that. Thanks.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #435 on: November 01, 2012, 12:22:56 AM »
While not directly related to the issue at hand, I'm going to address this, for it brings up some interesting facts not likely to be known by western fans.

Kanako and Suwako's abilities are not about 'atmosphere' and ground in a traditional sense. In fact Kanako's has nothing to do with the air at all. Kanako has the ability to create Qian(乾), and Suwako the creation of Kun(坤).  There are many books on the meanings of these, so I'll just touch on them because the whole thing is quite complex. Qian, despite often being translated as sky, heaven, etc; means nothing else but 'Qian' it was specifically named as such by King Wen. Qian represents the nature and function of Heaven, it carries four attributes of a Emperor:  Sublime and initiative, prosperous and smooth, favorable and beneficial, steadfast and upright. It is the Tao of initiating, the perfect time and place.

Kun is the passive, or receptive principle. The opposite, and complement to Qian. Creation and reception, initiation and submission, yang and yin. They unite and work as one. The attributes of Kun are responsiveness, flexibility,  devotion and humility. Kun requires energy from Qian to create, Qian sows the seeds and Kun causes them to grow. The earth responds to heaven but must still be true to itself.  Confucius' comments  that Kun possesses beauty, but is concealed; it engages in a King's service, yet takes no credit.

As you can see this describes Kanako, Suwako and the relationship between them. Kanako is attempting to change gensokyo as a direct figure, and Suwako plays key roles behind the scenes. Both are required to make something possible. It's far more than weather/wind, and earth manipulation.

So uh, the more you know!
This is actually really cool. Touhouwiki does mention this on Kanako and Suwako's profiles, but not in-depth. Maybe you can put this there?

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #436 on: November 01, 2012, 01:26:18 AM »
While not directly related to the issue at hand, I'm going to address this, for it brings up some interesting facts not likely to be known by western fans.

Kanako and Suwako's abilities are not about 'atmosphere' and ground in a traditional sense. In fact Kanako's has nothing to do with the air at all. Kanako has the ability to create Qian(乾), and Suwako the creation of Kun(坤).  There are many books on the meanings of these, so I'll just touch on them because the whole thing is quite complex. Qian, despite often being translated as sky, heaven, etc; means nothing else but 'Qian' it was specifically named as such by King Wen. Qian represents the nature and function of Heaven, it carries four attributes of a Emperor:  Sublime and initiative, prosperous and smooth, favorable and beneficial, steadfast and upright. It is the Tao of initiating, the perfect time and place.

Kun is the passive, or receptive principle. The opposite, and complement to Qian. Creation and reception, initiation and submission, yang and yin. They unite and work as one. The attributes of Kun are responsiveness, flexibility,  devotion and humility. Kun requires energy from Qian to create, Qian sows the seeds and Kun causes them to grow. The earth responds to heaven but must still be true to itself.  Confucius' comments  that Kun possesses beauty, but is concealed; it engages in a King's service, yet takes no credit.

As you can see this describes Kanako, Suwako and the relationship between them. Kanako is attempting to change gensokyo as a direct figure, and Suwako plays key roles behind the scenes. Both are required to make something possible. It's far more than weather/wind, and earth manipulation.

So uh, the more you know!

This is awesome! For me it was just bland sky/earth manipulation. Never thought the concepts of Qian and Kun were so deep.

Basing on your words, from what I can see the one that manipulates earth per se is Tenshi then. Mmm.

Sweetness and love~ ♥

cuc

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #437 on: November 01, 2012, 01:34:30 AM »
That may be true, but it seems like it is too much of a coincidence for Tenshi's ability to match both Kanako and Suwako, being able to control both the atmosphere and the ground.
Hey, you didn't mention this the last time I tried to talk about the thematic parallels between MoF, Vignettes of Ephemeral Moon and SWR!

Qian, despite often being translated as sky, heaven, etc; means nothing else but 'Qian' it was specifically named as such by King Wen.
That's a good post! A nitpick: Qian and Kun, and the eight trigrams, all dates to before King Wen. By tradition, the eight trigrams are invented by Fuxi, father of mankind. From a modern science PoV, they must be invented by some ancient tribes before the Zhou dynasty.

The internet tells me, the root meaning of Qian is "like a plant growing up" (Source: 說文解字 Shuowen Jiezi).

In MoF terms, Kanako is a cultural goddess, a representation of a certain human tribe themselves; Suwako is a cthonic goddess, a representation of geographic phenomenon (specifically the Suwa lake, see WaHH Chapter 4). Their modi operandi are bound to be different.

Heaven and earth. The dichotomy actually has rather consistent symbolic meanings throughout the 3 stories (MoF, Vignettes of Ephemeral Moon and SWR)...
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 01:50:59 AM by cuc »
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #438 on: November 01, 2012, 03:47:00 AM »
In MoF terms, Kanako is a cultural goddess, a representation of a certain human tribe themselves; Suwako is a cthonic goddess, a representation of geographic phenomenon (specifically the Suwa lake, see WaHH Chapter 4). Their modi operandi are bound to be different.

Heaven and earth. The dichotomy actually has rather consistent symbolic meanings throughout the 3 stories (MoF, Vignettes of Ephemeral Moon and SWR)...
In that case, I wonder what it might mean for the balance between Kanako and Suwako now that Kanako is gaining fame as a goddess of technological innovation, as she mentions at some point during the actual symposium in SoPM.

nintendonut888

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #439 on: November 01, 2012, 03:49:32 AM »
I'm a bit confused now - I see that the powers that Kanako and Suwako manipulate are kinds of qi, but what does manipulating - or even creating them - do?
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #440 on: November 01, 2012, 04:18:28 AM »
Tier Lists don't matter for advanced players either. Players at that level can keep in mind what their personal hard matchups are already, being you know, human beings capable of memory capacity and being in posesion of the ability to learn from mistakes and pick up patterns ("Oh, I seem to always lose against Hazama when I'm Tager, and nothing I've explored seems to make the match any easier; I should look out for Hazamas and find some new strategy or character to deal with this problem"). You'll never see a GF winner saying anything like "Yeah, I thought for sure I was going to lose, but then I remembered that he was using a low tier character! Thanks to that wonderful tier list, I was able to take the set!"

you won't see a GF winner saying "Yeah, I thought for sure that my Chun Li was going to lose, but then I remembered that he was using Sean!" either, hahah :D (there are other examples of dominant characters/teams such as MvsC2's Magneto/Sentinel/Storm, Garou's Kevin Ryan, KoF 2003's Duo Lon, ST's Akuma, I heard that the latter, at least in Japan, requires the user to input the unlock code correctly for every match he's in, else he's instantly removed from the tournament. Still, he's.. Akuma tier in that game.)
Fun fact: low-tier characters can, at times, be used for the sole purpose of putting your opponent off (read more here).

>> Players at that level can keep in mind what their personal hard matchups are already, being you know, human beings capable of memory capacity and being in posesion of the ability to learn from mistakes and pick up patterns

if someone feels like their favorite character's moveset/attributes fits their playstyle better, it's okay to try to find a way around their matchup problem. It's good when/if the game gives them such a possibility (meaning that the character doesn't suffer as much from specific matchups). It's not good when/if changing your character is the least effort for the same (or better) results in that specific matchup, balance-wise. Having too many problems against too many characters (such as lack of resources for creating openings or taking good enough advantage of them -- basically, having to work way harder than your opponent) is, generally speaking, what makes a low-tier character, a low-tier character.

>> Tier Lists don't matter for advanced players either.

more often than not, tier lists reflect which characters have the highest chances at winning tournaments or placing well. (I'd say, "which characters have the highest chance of winning when used well")
tier lists are subject to changes when games receive updates, or the players discover new technology (like your example; if said Tager player is able to research or discover a new way to beat Hazama's tactics, it's an improvement in the Tager's tech/repertoire), and then are remade after enough game theory has developed. They're not set in stone (you don't say you won because of the tier list), but using a low-tier character without being aware of its deficiencies or without having something new to show (new technology, such as a new combo, a new setup, a new way to counter or a new frametrap/mixup, etc.) doesn't excuse you from losing. That's the equivalent of purposedly lowering your winning chances. (some people joke about people who're biased against high-tier characters, saying things like "hello, I'm a low-tier user. If you win, you're a tier-whore; if you lose, you're a n00b/I'm awesome.")

As a final consideration, it's acceptable to have matchup imbalances; it's not, though, to have nearly-useless characters (useless tier) or to have dominant characters (overpowered tier) that forces every other player to use said dominant characters (or slightly worse ones) to have just as high chances of winning. Both of these tiers contribute for lowering the viability of a number of characters or character-specific resources in a character roster, and lowering the depth of the game.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #441 on: November 01, 2012, 04:37:11 AM »
This is actually really cool. Touhouwiki does mention this on Kanako and Suwako's profiles, but not in-depth. Maybe you can put this there?

A good idea, I may do so in the future.

That's a good post! A nitpick: Qian and Kun, and the eight trigrams, all dates to before King Wen. By tradition, the eight trigrams are invented by Fuxi, father of mankind. From a modern science PoV, they must be invented by some ancient tribes before the Zhou dynasty.

The internet tells me, the root meaning of Qian is "like a plant growing up" (Source: 說文解字 Shuowen Jiezi).

Well as I said: I was merely touching on the subject. I certainly didn't mean to imply the original trigrams were invented solely by King Wen. However, King Wen wrote the hexagram judgements and set a new order to them. Essentially any modern understanding comes from his work, and those who followed. The I Ching looks nothing like the pre-Zhou diviner handbook the trigrams originated from, a part of its greatness is from the commentaries and insights provided by scholars throughout the ages.  But that's another story.

'like a plant growing up' refers to the four attributes of Qian: sublime and initiative, prosperous and smooth, favorable and beneficial, steadfast and upright. Or: sprouting, growing, blooming and bearing fruit.

In that case, I wonder what it might mean for the balance between Kanako and Suwako now that Kanako is gaining fame as a goddess of technological innovation, as she mentions at some point during the actual symposium in SoPM.

Suwako was instrumental in building the Temple, and presumably any other infrastructure that has, or will, be needed. Attempting to become a goddess of technological innovation is exactly the sort of revolutionary process that is characteristic of Qian and thus needs a strong basis to work from. Suwako certainly doesn't seem to mind Kanako's ambitions thus far.

I'm a bit confused now - I see that the powers that Kanako and Suwako manipulate are kinds of qi, but what does manipulating - or even creating them - do?

If it was simple to understand it wouldn't be of the Tao! Elucidating things a bit more could take quite some time, sorry.
To completely bypass that, think about what 'manipulation of fate', 'manipulation of boundaries', 'ability to eat anything' could possibly entail, and be thankful there are religions and philosophies involving Qian, Kun and the like, to draw from. 

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #442 on: November 01, 2012, 05:09:42 AM »
I'm a bit confused now - I see that the powers that Kanako and Suwako manipulate are kinds of qi, but what does manipulating - or even creating them - do?

I don't think it means much at all. Powers are self-reported. These concepts are simply how the characters like to describe themselves.

Amraphenson

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #443 on: November 01, 2012, 05:23:40 AM »
The issue, which I acknowledge pretty well, is that it might not even matter for Hopeless Masquerade if none of us are expecting it to be a decent fighting game at that level anyway. 99% of soku players either play within their own communities or just run arcade mode whenever they play it. I'd really like to see Hopeless Masquerade reach a level of balance where it's actually feasible to have a non-disgusting tournament scene based around it though.
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[23:20] <Stuffman> enjoy your personally crafted hell Amra

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #444 on: November 01, 2012, 06:01:12 AM »
I'm kinda hoping that they'd use Eternal Fighter Zero's (another Tasofro game) engine.

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #445 on: November 01, 2012, 06:47:54 AM »
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Hey, you didn't mention this the last time I tried to talk about the thematic parallels between MoF, Vignettes of Ephemeral Moon and SWR!

I probably missed it or misunderstood what was being said, so I did not make any comments on it.

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99% of soku players either play within their own communities or just run arcade mode whenever they play it. I'd really like to see Hopeless Masquerade reach a level of balance where it's actually feasible to have a non-disgusting tournament scene based around it though.

I was under the impression that this only applies to the western Fanbase. This game may not be as big as other titles, but I was unaware that it is no longer competitively played.

And where are you getting your latter impression? Can you post proof?

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I'm a bit confused now - I see that the powers that Kanako and Suwako manipulate are kinds of qi, but what does manipulating - or even creating them - do?

The simpliest answer is the translation you see. Kanako can manipulate the sky and Suwako can manipulate the earth.

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #446 on: November 01, 2012, 07:21:25 AM »
The simpliest answer is the translation you see. Kanako can manipulate the sky and Suwako can manipulate the earth.

The intention of my post was to correct this type of thought, as it is wrong on several levels. Chiefly that the Japanese (and even the translations) don't use 'manipulation' but instead use 'creation' they also don't use the words/kanji for 'sky' and 'earth' but Qian and Kun. 'Creation of sky', doesn't make sense, creation of earth is a bit better; but not by much.  It's important to recognize that it's  'creation of Qian/Kun', even if you don't fully understand the underlying system. 

Amraphenson

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #447 on: November 01, 2012, 07:39:37 AM »
I'd honestly rather not give you proof at this point Starxsword, because I already have with that entire tournament playlist. Talking about how bad Soku's balance is depresses me. But just consider that Iku does more damage with no spellcard usage at all compared to an Aya using Illusionary Dominance. If you want proof for yourself, just watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVjgjRC7zzc and tell me with a straight face that the weather system doesn't favor rush down characters that can repeatedly knock you down and apply okizeme. Or say it was just bad luck on Alice's part, whatever.

In general, tournament life of a game does not extend beyond a few years unless the developers are constantly updating and supporting the game, which Tasofro doesn't. I can think of really easy changes that would have gone a long ways towards making some characters less stupid (Sakuya's j2a carries momentum meaning she can't auto-punish Border Escapes with a tkj2a, lowering blockstun on Remilia C bullets, etc.), but Tasofro has touched the basic tools of the girls very sparingly.

On a side note, this has me thinking about Meiling/Kanako/Suwako relations. It would be interesting to see how their powers interact, if I'm understanding this right.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 07:57:05 AM by Amra »
Sugoiiii~
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[23:20] <Stuffman> enjoy your personally crafted hell Amra

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #448 on: November 01, 2012, 08:16:53 AM »
The issue, which I acknowledge pretty well, is that it might not even matter for Hopeless Masquerade if none of us are expecting it to be a decent fighting game at that level anyway.

I'm reminded of the phrase "living down to one's expectations" - if people make up their minds ahead of time that something's going to suck before they even see it, let alone play it, there is an almost guaranteed chance that their experience with the game is going to confirm their expectations. It's the opposite of the effect "hype" has, where inflated expectations can make people rationalize away flaws and bugs as actual features. Deciding ahead of time that the game is going to be terrible will, inevitably, lead to an experience that completely fits that expectation.

Bear in mind this is a general rule, with exceptions, and not meant to apply to each and every person in the world ever.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #449 on: November 01, 2012, 08:33:08 AM »
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Talking about how bad Soku's balance is depresses me. But just consider that Iku does more damage with no spellcard usage at all compared to an Aya using Illusionary Dominance. If you want proof for yourself, just watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVjgjRC7zzc and tell me with a straight face that the weather system doesn't favor rush down characters that can repeatedly knock you down and apply okizeme. Or say it was just bad luck on Alice's part, whatever.

Yes, I could say that. Why not look at this one then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJVQXe_2fjY, Looking more fair isn't it? Even though Sakuya won, it could have gone either way.

As for Aya's Illusionary Dominance, that is a poor comparison. You have to also remember about proration, which happens since Illusionary Dominance does so many hits. Why not compare Aya's easy basic combos with Iku's easy combos? We are comparing a VERY FAST character to a slow character. That is like complaining that Vega's damage is insufficient compared to Zangeif.