Author Topic: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.  (Read 22590 times)

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Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« on: May 03, 2012, 02:33:07 PM »
This thread is for you to relate what Symposium of Post Mysticism did to your headcanon. What you already believed that was confirmed, what was denied.

For me, I had guessed right that Miko would want to become a leader inside Gensokyo just as she had been in the past. I was wrong in thinking that Seiga would stick around Miko's group. Overall, it put on paper pretty much what I already had on my headcanon about Gensokyo being a closed system precariously balanced, humans being kept there like animals in a zoo, the relationship between gods and youkai, etc. Murasa and Ichirin's canon personalities seem to be about the opposite of what I had imagined (Ichirin is plucky and assertive, Murasa is sly and well-spoken) but this was awesome.

Troll Kisume didn't bother me, because I already had read how Zun described Koakuma and Daiyousei (both mischievous), so my default for characters without a clear personality is to imagine them as nasty goblins anyway.

Punk Mystia came out of the nowhere and it was love at first sight.

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 04:12:41 PM »
I thought Byakuren would be a bit friendlier towards humans.

Then again it's probably enough of a miracle that she's still on speaking terms with them at all.

Nitori being a snobby jerk to both humans and youkai is a thing. :U

Moerin

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 05:07:10 PM »
The only thing that matters is :dragonforce: Choujuu Gigaku :dragonforce:, which is clearly the best thing to ever happen to Gensokyo and made Mystia and Kyouko rocket up my favourites list.  Thanks to that, I honestly don't care about anything else in the book as nothing will spark my interest as much as that.
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 05:09:44 PM »
I haven't read much but before I thought that Satori wasn't as secluded as she was described as in SoPM (like she would at least leave the Palace but not go above ground) but her being a writer made me like her a lot more and I always thought of Koishi as having a "free spirit" personality but she's described as having an empty personality although im confused on what this means exactly, also I thought that Satori was able to see Koishi.

My views on Byakuren haven't really changed much, I always had the thought of her Uncertain allegiance/Youkai siding and I didn't think that Miko would have been casual and human-friendly albeit I didn't really know much about her in the first place.
Also Nitori's arrogance towards humans was unexpected, although the only Canon thing I knew of her was that "friend of Humans" dialouge

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 05:29:59 PM »
Nitori surprised me with her arrogant-towards-humans attitude.  Always thought she was shy around humans, though DS said that she is seen drowning humans at times, so it's probably a given that she isn't friendly to them in the first place.

I still don't get why people are that surprised by Kisume's true nature.  DS made it clear that she is ferocious, just that it never mentioned that she takes people's heads.

Miko being a humorous person makes me like her even more.  Her occasional laughing during the interviews reminds me of the laughing meme, if you can call it that, with Sakurai, the creator of Kirby and the SSB series.

Koishi is pretty shocking.  The fact that she doesn't have a mind of her own and acts according to subconsciousness makes her theme song more fitting.

Kogasa not being fond of children because she doesn't like it when they get attracted to her umbrella amuses me.  She doesn't look like that kind of person at all.

Shou's spear being only for looks...  Always thought she was good at fighting up close...

I'm not sure if this is confirmed, but a friend of mine told me that Shizuha is wilder than her younger sister.  Guess fan portrayals of her being a skilled martial artists aren't far off after all!  I like it!

Kanako having snake eyes is cool, even though I'm not a fan of snakes.  Surprised that something sometimes seen in fanon turns out to be canon!

Satori being a writer is neat!  Guess it's because I write fan fictions myself.

Minamitsu!  Why you so scary?!  You're one of the my favorite characters in the series!

iK

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 05:44:13 PM »
SoPM reinforces how great the Taoists are in my eyes.

Also reinforces Futo as a Hermit Moe~.
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 05:48:29 PM »
Overall it didn't really do much to mine, since:

1) Think back to PMiSS. Akyuu grossly exaggerated things in there, so what's to say she didn't do the same here?
2) "But wait, she had help gathering this information this time!" Yeah, from Aya (whose newspaper is dubious at best) and Marisa (who is also morally suspect and is known to lie about things). Combine that with Akyuu's limited scope of personal interaction with the youkai she writes about, and you're very likely to have gross inaccuracies.

Basically, my view is that although it is an official ZUN work, it's meant to be read through Akyuu's eyes. And she doesn't see a whole lot for herself.

Iced Fairy

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 06:09:05 PM »
1) Think back to PMiSS. Akyuu grossly exaggerated things in there, so what's to say she didn't do the same here?
2) "But wait, she had help gathering this information this time!" Yeah, from Aya (whose newspaper is dubious at best) and Marisa (who is also morally suspect and is known to lie about things). Combine that with Akyuu's limited scope of personal interaction with the youkai she writes about, and you're very likely to have gross inaccuracies.
Yeah Akyuu ranks dead last for canon sources in my mind.  At least with Aya's newspaper articles you can be certain the event being photographed (or something similar to it) actually happened.

Still there are some wrenches being thrown in my mind.  In no particular order:

1 - Hina and Yamame being dangerous just to be around.  That's a huge pain there as a writer.
2 - Futo being a murderer.  I was figuring Tojiko just hadn't been trusted, but apparently Futo killed her.  Everyone's focused on the moe but she's a vicious girl apparently.  Tojiko on the other hand is apparently super cool, because she's totally forgive and forget about the whole part where she got killed.

Less wrenchy but still odd:
1 - Seiga not being too attached to the rest of the Taoist crew.
2 - Byakuren having become a fairly strict Buddhist again.  I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised though.
3 - Nitori having an Alice like superiority complex.  Then again she is drawn to Marisa as well.  I wonder if Patchy is similarly afflicted.  Then again beating Patchy in pure magic is...

Total mess:
The interview is a wreck.  ZUN was either drunk, vague or the translation is missing a few things because as written it makes an irreconcilable mess of IN and SWR.  I've tossed it for now.

Totally Awesome:
Punk is back and Kanako can have snake eyes.  I'm down with this.
Edit: Seeing what's been newly translated - Marisa can survive drinking with oni.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:32:10 PM by Iced Fairy »

Totaku

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 06:37:14 PM »
I'll probably write a final overview of SoPM in due time, but for right now I'll give my initial thoughts on some of the characters and some things I read in the interview:

Shinto in general: Pretty much what I expected from it, though Kanako's aspect suggested she she can go wider with it. So it seems to be understandable coming from her.

Hina: She struck me as a depressing individual and yet when Akyuu says she is actually nice and cheerful, that kinda perplex me. Especially with the picture of choice, since she looked so.....melancholy. Otherwise most things I viewed about Hina seem to make sense. Though the fact she's the type of god that could double as a youkai was kind of a nice surprise, yet it made sense to me since she's the type of god that didn't require worshiping....

Nitori: Kappa are kappa so I kinda expect them to display their old habits. Nitori is no surprise to me either. You could say her relationship with humans is shaky at most. Course since she did work with Marisa in SA, assuming you play that route. It seems to suggest that she can actually be on good terms. But only if she can actually trust you. But like I said, on most occasions, it's shaky. Also DON'T GO NEAR KAPPA HQ UNLESS YOU WANNA DROWN.

Sanae: Sanae turned out pretty much as I expected. Though her lack of outside world knowledge suggests she's only limited on what she knows (probably because duty comes first). But even the games suggest she knows some stuff. But I guess it's stuff Gensokyo already knows about?.... Other than that her miracle abilities strike me with no surprise either and the fact it's questionable make her seem believable.

Kanako: She's one shrewd business individual. She struck me as one to attempt to find ways to gather faith, but I didn't know HOW heavily involved she was. Apparently all that dealing with the Tengu and Kappa are paying off I see. Course the fact her and Suwako work together when performing god like fates also interested me. Also the fact she starts a business with youkai selling outside good to them tickled my interest. And from what I've seen in the interview, she seems like she stands on the natural ground of things.

Suwako: Once again what I have learned is never underestimate this goddess. She's surprinsing more dangerous and powerful than I usually expect her to be especially since she harnesses the cursed god within her. It almost gives me this vibe that her and Kanako work together to perform strange feats to drum up business in a yakuza like fashion. But it's made a bit vauge for me to make sure. Either way, she's still amusing with her powers....

The underground folks: Obviously we've learn that some are more dangerous than we expect. But then again, it may be misconception too. Though some ideas about them and WHY they live underground do make sense....

Kisume: This one literally swept me off my feet. Completely different from how I expected Kisume. She may of not had a profile, but my god ZUN.... I'm guessing this means feral youkai still exists within Gensokyo and Kisume is one of them.

Yamane: The tidbits that were given did not surprise me.... waiting for official translation....

Parsee: Most of it seems to be obvious. Parsee hates everyone. Simple.... keep conversations to a minimum and don't let her get to you. But yeah nothing too unexpected...

Yuugi: Now that we known the her phenomenon mainly comes from her sake cup. Because it can upgrade the quality of any alcoholic beverage poured into it. I'm pretty tickled with Yuugi now. She at least has something that makes her notably stick out now other than the fact she's an oni. Course Suika's comments about her being stonger than her didn't really surpirse me, her build kinda gave it away.

Satori: A complete hikkimori, something I wasn't expecting, but I guess when your hated for reading people's minds, you sometimes gotta do something to keep yourself away from those that hate you. Sad really, but on the other hand, her desire to write love stories makes her interesting.

Orin: Nothing new, everything about Kasha myths proved to exists here.

Utsuho: Nothing confirmed yet, even a summary someone pointed to me too suggest that little is known about Okuu by Akyuu at this time.... Still waiting for official translation though....

Koishi: Super depressing.... I didn't think she would sink to that point. But then again, she's really seems to be hurting herself even though she can't feel a thing about it all even if her sister doesn't know she exsist. Being Koishi is suffering....

About the Buddhist: Byakuren's crew seem to be a very interesting group, and yet now that I've seen some of her views.... I question her stance. She seems to suggest she support youkai and care for humans, but yet she seems to STRONGLY show a stance for youkais and in some ways a bitter hatred to humans. Also the groups themeselves after reading thier profile even add more shadiness to the group....

Nazrin: She's pretty much what I expected. Though being the smallest of the crew was also an interesting thing too. Understandable as well.... also the fact she mainly runs around Gensokoy and only answers to Shou...

Kogasa: Kogasa is now more cute and amusing than before. The fact that she is liked by people (children in paticular) is a big plus. Even if she doesn't exactly like the idea of that. Otherwise most info was what I expected...

Ichirin and Unzan: The back story and how Ichirin became a youkai is probably the most interesting thing about them. I didn't expect Ichirin would single handedly defeat Unzan with a simple chant and would end up serving her. But it seems to me this will lead to a sweet if not sad story when doujin stories begin poping up....

Murasa: Comfirmed for absolute jerk who will drown people that she dislikes.  Surprising twist from what I was hoping to know, but at least she's not bounded to the Myouren temple like I was thinking she would be.  (Since it was her ship orginally) Course now that she's running around cauing harm she's become a strange individual in my book.

Shou: Japanese Hobbes....end of story and I LOVE IT!

Byakuren: When you compile all the information of her crew, her stance on some issues in the interview and her background info. Byakuren really does become an extremely shady person.  In fact you may question if she really follows the code of Buddhism at times. I guess they're right, being caged up in houkai for 1000 years really can make you grow hatred towards humans.... Course the bits about her scroll and magic really caught my interest. Regardless of these though, Byakuren really does stand in that shady gray area especially with Miko....

About the Taoist: This crew was what caught my interest the most. And as I pressed on looking at the characters and their religion itself. I found that it may not be the characters themselves that are just gray in thier feild... but the religion itself! Especially when Miko mentions about that anyone can pursue the truth and how they use it is up to them. This means pretty much good and evil humans can pursue hermitdom and cause serious issues depending on who masters it. Seiga herself being more of a bad nature individual is just a small sample of what a person with ill intentions can do. While Miko is probably more closer to what a more good nature individual can do (though she has her grey fields as well...)

Kyouko: It's funny how Akyuu recorded some of her echos. It was a funny treat. Also the fact she's bad at math makes her funny. Course like everyone else pointed out..... Kyouko and Mystia's punk rock band....BEST THING EVER!

Yoshika: Oddly found this one amusing. Mainly knowing why her body is well preserved. But what really caught my eye was how she behaves when Seiga ofuda comes off.... it's depressing and scary all at the same time. And also suggests to me Yoshika is THE Miyako no Yoshika most likely.

Seiga: While the information I wanted didn't come to be. What I learned about her character was astonishing because of one reason....Everything thing I had envisioned about Seiga in almost came out perfect! She stuck me as a very cruel dark individual who tends to look around for anything that gets her attention. And the fact she stalks people makes her stand out. Also the fact her wall passing skills have a weakness proves she does have limits... yet most of everything else was stuff I confirmed long ago... The only true surprise coming from her is the fact she doesn't really work directly with Miko's group following her resurrection...but then again, this may bring her out more (almost anticipate she'll reutrn in some way... considering her behavior) Also waiting for Seiga Claus article!

Tojiko: Pretty much what shocked me here (pun intended) was that Futo really got the last laugh with Tojiko and screwed her Shikansen process up. That was kinda of a big ouch, other than that most of what I invision of her seems accurate. awaiting complete translation.

Futo: Paranoid, timid, and out of place. Futo really does stand out to be very interesting.  And because of this, she tends to get scared alot. This is especially amusing since I now view her as paranoid arsonist. XD Also the Shikansen process gave me some light on how it's done.

Miko: Pretty much alot of things about her came out to be as I expected. High royalty and friendly, seems saintly to the point it may be hard to associate with. The fact she lives in a secluded location suggest she is definitely living the way of the hermit. Otherwise, probably the big thing about her that stood out was her extreme stance against youkai and wanting to establish a political system of sorts in the human village (or at least become a leader to them). She has this polotician vibe about her. Which makes me like her and dislike her at the same time. Again, she has a grey field about her because of her strong political influence. If she happens to raise the people's moral high enough, it may cause some serious bad vibes in Gensokyo in the long run..... we'll just have to wait and see though.

Mamizou: Being a foreigner to Gensokyo must be tough, especially since she must content with the other tanukis that are locals here. Makes me kinda curious how her role will play out. We know she's been busy hang around Reimu and the crew in WaHH so she's probably starting to adapt. I'm still awaiting for additional info though....

But yeah this is my impression so far of SoPM. Really I'm impressed and has given me some intersting vibes about the characters and Gensokyo's future in general... I wonder where ZUN will take the series as of this point....
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:41:17 PM by Totaku »
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 06:38:53 PM »
2 - Futo being a murderer.  I was figuring Tojiko just hadn't been trusted, but apparently Futo killed her.  Everyone's focused on the moe but she's a vicious girl apparently.  Tojiko on the other hand is apparently super cool, because she's totally forgive and forget about the whole part where she got killed.

Futo also use to have a horrible time dealing with her fears. She burnt a Buddhist temple because the statues were creeping her out. She just seems to overreact a lot. Like, a lot a lot.
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 07:09:58 PM »
Total mess:
The interview is a wreck.  ZUN was either drunk, vague or the translation is missing a few things because as written it makes an irreconcilable mess of IN and SWR.  I've tossed it for now.
How so? I didn't think the interview changed anything super important but I'm no touhou expert.

What surprised me is that I always assumed that Kanako's nuclear energy scheme was just an elaborate attempt at gathering faith somehow, but apparently there will be an energy crisis in Gensokyo because it gets all its ambient energy secondhand from the outside world, or something weird like that.

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 07:12:16 PM »
Total mess:
The interview is a wreck.  ZUN was either drunk, vague or the translation is missing a few things because as written it makes an irreconcilable mess of IN and SWR.  I've tossed it for now.
You mean "the dragon palace is on the moon"?

Observe the concept of Pure Land. In mysticism, things are close when they are somehow connected. The Moon is a natural pure land (no biology there), something that the ancient wizards who founded the Lunar Capital used to link the place with the conceptual Pure Land of human imagination - that's it, the Heavens. Why do you think there are lots of peaches in both places? This is what ZUN meant when he said that there are several connections between the places.

This actually means that the Yama, Iku's boss, Tenshi and the Wakatsukis are kind of neighbors, but pretty much in the same sense that anybody living on Earth is a kind of a neighbor - they all live in the same plane of existence. There are, uh, conceptual distances between all these that kind of ruins the idea of all them being in the same sitcom. But it means that from Tenshi's place, arriving on the Lunar Capital probably involves traveling through seemingly infinite oceans of peach trees, without a hint of space travel in the way.

It's not anymore jarring than the idea that you can actually enter Hell (yet another plane of existence) by descending into a particularly sinister cavern. Everybody believed this back then, and Touhou works based on this kind of magical thinking.

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 07:29:35 PM »
Writing fanfiction (or well, roleplaying  :V ) I had my own expectations of this book. What impressed me the most was that the characters I usually play as came out very similarly to the way I invisioned their personalities. Especially Parsee was one point where I thought that anything said about her would dramatically change my view on her, but no, she really does seem to act almost normal when socializing, while being jealous. I almost expected something grimdark and even though the confirmation of Anathema Rituals (as already refernced by SA's last spellcard) is indeed sort of worrisome, I had expected much, much worse and I am happy about the way she came out.

I would love to see how Minoriko turns out to be in the end, to be honest and I can't wait for a translation. I don't expect any big suprises here and it's fun how the discussion eventually mentioned that she and her sister should team up seeling sweet baked potatos... But I'll stay tuned.

Then last, Miko. Oh boy, how was I scared about retconning anything I had done so far, but it really turned out the way I envisioned mostly and the way her official TD profile already described her. Not too suprising was the fact she wants to establish politics in Gensokyo and looking back at her history, I could very well see her doing interesting actions in the future.

I especially loved how she told stories about her past, especially the part where Futo accidentally burned down a temple  :derp:

About the other characters, I have not dealt that much with the other cast as with the aforementioned three, but what suprised me was how shady Byakuren and her crew actually appear, now that there are some interesting details published especially about a certain captain...  :smug:

Spoiler:
MYSTIA & KYOUKO MAKE A PUNK-ROCK BAND
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2012, 07:38:04 PM »
You mean "the dragon palace is on the moon"?

Observe the concept of Pure Land. In mysticism, things are close when they are somehow connected. The Moon is a natural pure land (no biology there), something that the ancient wizards who founded the Lunar Capital used to link the place with the conceptual Pure Land of human imagination - that's it, the Heavens. Why do you think there are lots of peaches in both places? This is what ZUN meant when he said that there are several connections between the places.

This actually means that the Yama, Iku's boss, Tenshi and the Wakatsukis are kind of neighbors, but pretty much in the same sense that anybody living on Earth is a kind of a neighbor - they all live in the same plane of existence. There are, uh, conceptual distances between all these that kind of ruins the idea of all them being in the same sitcom. But it means that from Tenshi's place, arriving on the Lunar Capital probably involves traveling through seemingly infinite oceans of peach trees, without a hint of space travel in the way.

It's not anymore jarring than the idea that you can actually enter Hell (yet another plane of existence) by descending into a particularly sinister cavern. Everybody believed this back then, and Touhou works based on this kind of magical thinking.


Wierd. The original translation on the wiki said it was just a lunar capital matter. The latest one says the dragon palace is the actual Lunar Capital itself.

I find the latter a bit hard to believe because CiLR had the watatsukis give a story where they specifically LIED that the Lunar Capital was the Dragon Palace (IE, that it's definately NOT. It's not a lie if it's true, after all)

...how bizarre.

_cf

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2012, 08:10:46 PM »
It still can be a bad translation, and ZUN himself can still not be totally clear on what he's creating. What stands right now is somewhat messy because it's all the eastern mythologies being true at the same time.

1) Shinto, Taoism and east asian shamanism in general believe in gods administering earth from above. The dragon palace comes from here.

2) Buddhists (from an Hinduism background) believe in six realms of existence. To simplify, one is our Earth, two are hells of suffering, one is the birthplace of a powerful supernatural evil race (Makai), and the last one is "heaven". Tenshi is a "Celestial", which in Touhou has all the trappings of a Buddhist deva.

These ideas were already mixed by the real life people co-opted the Hindu god of death to be the Yama. He's supposed to be a functionary of the celestial administration (mindset 1) that judges people and send them to one of the six realms (mindset 2).

ZUN further confused this by taking the legend of Mount Penglai/Hourai and mixing it with the tale of the Bamboo Cutter. Suddenly, Mount Hourai/the secret of immortality isn't on a distant island anymore, but on the Moon.

If you find this confusing, wait until you look to the nasty places: Makai was linked to the Western Hell (devils are born there so it seems that a "devil" is what a Buddhist/Hindu would call an "asura". Shinki has six wings as a Cherub, it CAN be used as a place of imprisonment) but keeps being a distinct place than Jigoku (the proper buddhist hell) where evil human souls go to be tortured for a while.

I've been drawing diagrams trying to make sense of this mess, but by the end, I think the best move is to Take It Easy. The Nice Places are all somewhat close to each other, and so the Nasty Places should be, too. Don't think too hard about it and drink more booze.

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2012, 08:20:31 PM »
Well, it comes down to belief, doesn't it?  And if enough people believe the lie...

Also, Miko being not-a-jerk didn't surprise me.  She was a politician in life, not a Crusader, and 10D made it pretty clearSeiga was the mastermind.  Though it does sort of set her up as Keine's nemesis, since she wants to advance human society.
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 08:45:19 PM »
The guys from underground are as dangerous as I expected them to be.

Kanako is more open to humans than I thought she would be. More of a bussiness woman as well.

But what surprised me the most was
Spoiler:
Reimu's reaction in the goddesses' meeting.  And how Miko dealt with her.
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petalferrous

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 10:00:34 PM »
But what surprised me the most was
Spoiler:
Reimu's reaction in the goddesses' meeting.  And how Miko dealt with her.
Me too!
Spoiler:
She wants peaceful resolutions after all huh? That adds some depth to her character. It casts her insistence on extermination in a different light. Even the Tokiko thing seems less jackassish.
Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I never realized that youkai in Gensokyo could still be really dangerous. I figured the spellcard rules made everything kind of a game, and took the "Threat Level" thing with a grain of salt.

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 10:23:59 PM »
Book confirmed my expectations of danger levels for the MoF and SA crew, especially hit the exact spot for Yuugi and Yamame.
As for friendliness level, I thought Suwako and Byakuren was more friendly towards humans. I guess for Suwako it is explained why in her SoPM article.
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 10:32:10 PM »
You mean "the dragon palace is on the moon"?
Yes.

Note I have to problem with this as a general concept.  The problem is the entire point of IN and SSiB is that travel between the Earth and the moon is difficult, uncommon and raises huge red flags.  The very threat of people from the lunar capitol sends Eirin into such a tizzy that she detaches the earth from the moon.  Except now Iku has been just kinda floating between the two at will and no one cared or noticed.

Meanwhile in SSiB the possibility of some dirty earthers going to the moon causes Yorihime and Toyohime to totally flip out and call out the army (as ineffective as their army is).  Yet in SWR half the cast just walks into Heaven (a connected realm) and no one says a thing.  Heck Suika sets up kip for a while.

So yeah, I don't think ZUN was thinking things all the way through.  Which is okay.  He's only one dude.  But it makes it kinda useless information.

iK

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 10:46:20 PM »
Being an envoy kind of makes traveling between places easier than it is for most people. You can't really fault an ambassador for being in foreign lands when it's their job to do exactly that.

Me too!
Spoiler:
She wants peaceful resolutions after all huh? That adds some depth to her character. It casts her insistence on extermination in a different light. Even the Tokiko thing seems less jackassish.
Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I never realized that youkai in Gensokyo could still be really dangerous. I figured the spellcard rules made everything kind of a game, and took the "Threat Level" thing with a grain of salt.

Youkais' very existence is to exist as a threat to humans though. If you expected every creature to be as calm and gentle as Ran or Aya in regards to humans, I have to think you didn't read up on the likes of Rumia or other "Rogue" youkai, and only read Lily White's page in PMiSS.

Notable dangerous Youkai and their associates:

Rumia, Letty, Remilia/Sakuya, Mystia, Medicine, Yamame, Kisume, Nazrin, Nue, Minamitsu, Yoshika/Seiga- to an extent.

There are many more, unnamed youkai who only serve as threats, however small, such as Kedama, Mr. Ghosties, Fairies, Youkai animals, all of whom vastly outnumber the human presence in Gensokyo. Were it not for the spellcard system and the threat of a Red-White beating looming over their heads, the humans of Gensokyo might not even exist today. Okay, I guess they might without the Spellcards, but they would certainly live in even greater threat than they do currently.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:04:32 PM by iK »
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petalferrous

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 11:15:11 PM »
No, I read all of ZUN's books. I was just in denial  :V

_cf

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2012, 12:53:58 AM »
Yes.

Note I have to problem with this as a general concept.  The problem is the entire point of IN and SSiB is that travel between the Earth and the moon is difficult, uncommon and raises huge red flags.  The very threat of people from the lunar capitol sends Eirin into such a tizzy that she detaches the earth from the moon.  Except now Iku has been just kinda floating between the two at will and no one cared or noticed.

Meanwhile in SSiB the possibility of some dirty earthers going to the moon causes Yorihime and Toyohime to totally flip out and call out the army (as ineffective as their army is).  Yet in SWR half the cast just walks into Heaven (a connected realm) and no one says a thing.  Heck Suika sets up kip for a while.

So yeah, I don't think ZUN was thinking things all the way through.  Which is okay.  He's only one dude.  But it makes it kinda useless information.
First, I also cannot believe the Dragon Palace is IN the Lunar Capital. Like, physically there. If this was the case, Iku and Reisen winning quotes to each other in SWR should indicate at least a bit of familiarity with each other species, something that doesn't happen. So it's certain for me that they're located in different places, and ZUN used "Lunar Capital" to mean "that magical place, with the peaches". They should still be like in the same "realm", but somewhat far away.

A bit of data confirming that "somewhat far" idea that hit me out of nothing was Reisen's reaction to Tenshi (in her SWR scenario). She immediately identified Tenshi's species: ("A Celestial[-sama]?!") So we know Reisen had a chance to see Celestials before.

So, I imagine that both places are close enough that celestials can be sighted on the Lunar Capital, and maybe among those peach-loving shawled girls shown in Bhagra-Avra there's a visiting Lunarian. But they're still far enough to make voyage through them inconvenient or, say, diplomatically dangerous: I wonder what the Celestials think about Lunarians, since the later are plain humans that decided a long time ago to bypass the entire "do good deeds to be born here" thing and went to live there directly.

So, if you wanna get to the Lunar Capital with minimal hassle, you'll still need to use the direct route, the one Eirin blocked. And whatever mess happens in Bhagra-Avra doesn't concern the Lunarians. The administrations are different.

Finally, since this is Touhou, in B4 this becomes 10 times more hair-pulling once you realize that the Catholic Heaven is ALSO connected to all these places, and ZUN's Saint Peter (a little girl with a silly hat and a giant key) tends to a peach garden when she's not letting people enter the Pearly Gates.

iK

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2012, 02:09:05 AM »
I am now thoroughly convinced that the DiPP girl is St. Peter.
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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2012, 03:25:41 AM »
A bit of data confirming that "somewhat far" idea that hit me out of nothing was Reisen's reaction to Tenshi (in her SWR scenario). She immediately identified Tenshi's species: ("A Celestial[-sama]?!") So we know Reisen had a chance to see Celestials before.

I'm positive there was an instant where a lunarian or moon rabbit commented that heaven and earth are both places the moon looks down on.  Maybe it was another SWR win quote or in one of the SWR endings or something (possibly Reisen's when Eirin is talking to her about Heaven).  Too sleepy to go look it up atm though.

Part 3 got translated more on the wiki. It's... amusing. :P

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2012, 03:38:13 AM »
I thought Sanae would have a higher threat rating given that she's a main character and therefore plows through entire armies of youkai and other critters in the games as well as Reimu and Marisa do.

Maybe threat rating isn't just combat prowess, but a measure of how aggressive/easy to anger a given character is?

Also, I like the idea of Sanae's power basically being a lottery. :derp:

I'm trying to figure out why Utsuho has a threat rating of "Unknown". Wouldn't one assume it would be pretty high by default? On the other hand, given that Utsuho's little rampage in Subterranean Animism was mainly the result of too much knowledge in too small a head and she chilled out later, maybe she's fairly personable and reliably stable as long as she's given clear instructions and something to keep her occupied.

I think Byakuren only has a medium level of friendliness towards humans as a result of A) her going against the grain of many human customs in Gensokyo (such as drinking) as noted in SoP-M, B) having been left to the dogs once already by them, and C) having a dislike for aggressive people (or a preference for gentle people) in general, and so just simply turning a cold shoulder to both youkai and humans that act too belligerent for her tastes.

I also still like to think Byakuren helps the UFO crew keep their heads on straight and try to instill some maturity into them should the more chaotic parts of their natures surface.

I should read the interview parts again, though. I've looked too much at the character bios.

Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2012, 03:56:11 AM »

game2011

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Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2012, 04:08:59 AM »
Saw Shizuha's page, and she's not actually wild, unless you consider kicking trees wild...

Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2012, 04:09:39 AM »
Saw Shizuha's page, and she's not actually wild, unless you consider kicking trees wild...

I imagine the trees sure do.

Re: Symposium of Post Mysticism and you.
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2012, 06:46:53 AM »
Quote
1) Think back to PMiSS. Akyuu grossly exaggerated things in there, so what's to say she didn't do the same here?
2) "But wait, she had help gathering this information this time!" Yeah, from Aya (whose newspaper is dubious at best) and Marisa (who is also morally suspect and is known to lie about things). Combine that with Akyuu's limited scope of personal interaction with the youkai she writes about, and you're very likely to have gross inaccuracies.

Sounds like bias to me. What things did she "grossly exaggerate"?
Her works are generally fairly consistent with canon.


Quote
If you find this confusing, wait until you look to the nasty places: Makai was linked to the Western Hell (devils are born there so it seems that a "devil" is what a Buddhist/Hindu would call an "asura". Shinki has six wings as a Cherub, it CAN be used as a place of imprisonment) but keeps being a distinct place than Jigoku (the proper buddhist hell) where evil human souls go to be tortured for a while.

Uh, with the Symposium out and even before, during Undefined Fantastic Object, Makai is Former Hell. You now know this for a fact since it was specific that Byakuren and crew are trapped in the same Underground that the underground youkai live in, ie Yamame, Kisume, Yuugi, etc. This means Hokkai is in the underground somewhere.


Some things I have learned.
Kisume is brutal.
Most underground youkai are pretty bad in general.
Byakuren is somewhat shady.
Kanako is very business like.
Nitori can be dangerous, but generally not and Murasa is dangerous.