[WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread III

[Ace-Royale]

DrRawr, I think you have to keep in mind that Koishi's a ranged hero - like other ranged agi carries, she is better off afk-farming luxuries in-lane instead of attempting to gank.

Let me guess, you are comparing Koishi's ganking ability to Flandre's, or Youmu's. The problem with this is that Koishi's intended role differs from that of melee agis. Koishi, as a ranged carry, is supposed to, and does have a much easier time pushing down towers while keeping themselves relatively safe. Melee girls, on the other hand, can only attack towers by exposing themselves to the entire enemy team, or only after your team has killed off 3-4 enemy girls.

My point is that it's bad design to give the ability to gank to ranged carries, just because they would be much more effective at carrying compared to melee carries. Heroes that can counter agis such as Cirno? Dropped in 3 seconds before they can even fight back. Your tower dies too and you can't even kill Koishi because the enemy team forms a wall in front of her. In comparison, even Flandre has a hard time pushing towers down in a siege. Sure, she can clone, but guess what? they can't heal and die in 2-3 seconds. Flan can't walk up and start attacking the tower because she gets dropped by 5-6 disables. 

[Dr Rawr]

Oh hey, just looking at the first couple lines i see you read nothing and only skimmed. So let me recap for you 

-Koishi offers no utility, form of disable, or steroid(not counting her ult)
-Because of that shes so easily ganked even lily would laugh
-Her ult is more of a hinderance unless your team was made to use it
-As per previos reason having to form you team around one hero is a broken concept and shouldnt be used

Your right i shouldnt be comparing carries to gankers, but tell me what other carry in dots cant gank?

[Dorakyura]

Is she really so horrible now? When I played her it was close to game over when I got some items. We won a game in 977 because Koishi started to get some items to carry after we some teamfights.

I can't see why you think she is so super weak only because she has no useable ability with slow, stun or whatever blink skill, but she has crit, evasion, manaburn and is ranged hero with a "panic" button when she gets ganked. Melee's running to her to gank are meat in her hands.

[Dr Rawr]

Are you people not reading everything i say and only commenting on certain parts?

Ill try to spell it out even further....

Her CONCEPT as a hero is AWFUL. She offer NO UTILITY which benefits no one. She needs 24/7 baby sitting else its like a giant gank me sign. Her "panic" button isnt too good either because lolcreepai and prior to lvl11 the +50 stats suck.

@dora
If i farmed a concordia as koishi and carry the game to victory does that make koishi a good hero? Carries gonna carry big deal

tl;dr koishis hero concept is awful and shouldnt exist in AoS type maps. She more team reliant then all the other carries. And i wish for a total rework on her. Same thing for lily and kanako

[Ace-Royale]

Oh hey, just looking at the first couple lines i see you read nothing and only skimmed. So let me recap for you 

You see, i did not address those points because I thought you'd be able to understand the implications without myself having to explain. I guess not.

-Koishi offers no utility, form of disable, or steroid(not counting her ult)

Manaburn stops agis/strs, and can prevent ints from casting spells. I'd call that utility because of a roundabout-silence-effect. Again, I said that she SHOULDN"T have a disable because she's a ranged agi. Sure, she should be able to push down towers while keeping herself totally out of danger AND be to stun and kill anyone who comes close, right? As for steroids, oh dang, I guess you don't skill your crit passive till lvl 17?

-Because of that shes so easily ganked even lily would laugh

She's SUPPOSED to be easily ganked BECAUSE she's a ranged agi and she's supposed to lack disables. Must I repeat myself?

-Her ult is more of a hinderance unless your team was made to use it

Yes, i do concede that her ult is somewhat flawed, but it still works as a *press W, win teamfight* in certain circumstances. Namely after all the disables are blown/people are clumped together and not paying attention to Koishi. You'd have to be retarded to engage with the freaking ult anyway.

-As per previos reason having to form you team around one hero is a broken concept and shouldnt be used

You opinion, this isn't an argument so I feel no need to address this.

Your right i shouldnt be comparing carries to gankers, but tell me what other carry in dots cant gank?

Well, considering the only other  ranged agi carry is Reisen, (Shizuha doesn't count because she is a soft carry, she should be able to gank mor easily than ranged hard carries) oh look, she can't gank either. Reisen is bad at ganking because: 1)next to no disables aside from that 2 second slow and 2)THE SLOW DOESN"T STOP PEOPLE FROM TPING AWAY. Here's your example of another carry who's unable to gank that well.

Rawr, there's a concept you are not grasping here. Ranged carries are NOT DESIGNED TO DOMINATE TEAMFIGHTS. Yes, consider this new idea for a second. You see, melee carries have an easier time in teamfights because they can focus down people who are out of position, or chase down fleeing enemies. (one reason for melee agis to have dash/blink/mspd bonuses) Ranged carries, on the other hand, are supposed to sit back and siege towers down while being protected by their teammates.

I appreciate your condescending attitude, by the way. Thanks for reminding me that that Flandre isn't the only hero who is supposed to 1v5 the enemy with only green llama and yellow card. I guess Koishi needs a aoe Momiji stun, yes?

[Amraphenson]

Shizuha? Soft carry? Are we both misunderstanding something here or what? That shit is hard as fuck. And did we forget Tei or what?
What Rawr is saying, pretty much, is she's boring as fuck.

Ult isn't a team fight winner in any case if the other team has any clue of what they're doing. It's only people who walk into that shit and get cocky that die to it; even if other people derping is a reliable occurance, we can't call a skill useful if it's only useful when people screw up.
Tei is hard as fuck to gank because lol mines and 'hey I outdps you anyway with F'
Shizuha is hard as fuck to gank because of ult and entangle.
Reisen is hard as fuck to gank now because of LOL FREE WARDS WITH 1.5K CAST RANGE. (approx)
Koishi? Nope.

CONVERSELY, WHEN GANKING
Tei gets an auto stun orb walk, and possibly mines if he predicts your escape route
Shizuha gets her entangle
Reisen gets slow+god range
Koishi? Hope for crits.

If slows aren't legitimate disables, Ace, then why the fuck do we have Medicine as a ganker? Because when you gank, there's going to be someone else in the lane. And ideally they have a stun. If they do, Reisen lets you land that better. So does Shiz and Tei, for stun stacking. Koishi doesn't help you land your lane buddies stun at all, and in fact she may make it worse by scaring them off.

Reisen has a disable, Shizuha has a disable. Degrees don't matter, Koishi doesn't have either a soft or slow disable or an utility besides a-move. Koishi doesn't help her team at all beyond mana burn and dps. Reisen has slow, clones, free wards+snipe+aoe, doppelwalk, and range. Shizuha has a hard disable, +dps aura, potentially infinite absurd sustain, and a multi purpose ult. Conversely, Koishi has 'oh hey I get stronger when more people are around to disable me, so it doesn't matter', 'hi I have crit and eva but it doesn't matter because I can't stop you from just running away at all, via blink or w/e', 'ima mana burn one guy, everyone else nuke me', and 'hey guys whats going on'. She has the most dps in the kind of situation she doesn't want to be in. Not to mention Tei, who has impetus+stun as a normal skill, techie mines, and 'haha fuck your nukes' as an ult.

tl;dr the last paragraph: all the other ranged carries have flat damage bonuses that aren't based on god's luck

In terms of 'steroid', we're talking about flat bonuses Ace. Can't call crits a steroid when Reisen and Shizuha have a 'turn on for even more rape' button, a spammable one no less in Reisen's case, and Tei has a fsking orb walk.

Regardless of effectiveness, Koishi still has a crappy ass character concept. Reisen and Shizuha do contribute crap to team fights. So does Tei. And if your hero concept is 'right click all the time, and if you are having a hard time lose complete control of your character', that's fucked up in the first place. Hell, Koishi is helped by her team more than she helps her team. Reworks pls.

Your point about ranged carries lacking disables and not being able to contribute to team fights is hinging on your belief that 'Shizuha is a soft carry so she doesn't count' and 'slow isn't a real disable'. Not to mention you forgot Tei, who has a guarranteed fucking stun orb. On all three accounts, it doesn't work. All of the other ranged carries are suited to gank, Ace. Tei's purpose isn't to a-move towers. Why isn't Koishi?

Since you can't get it past your 'pick carry and win game' mindset, Ace, let me spell it out for you.
I don't disagree that Koishi can be strong, nor do I disagree that she can be really weak. Any team worth their salt would be keeping two nukers on Koishi's ass at all times. As far as I understand it, Koishi is a stupid hero, seperate from the 'good bad' axis. She's just...boring. And that's a bad thing.

Right now I treat Koishi like I do Maelstrom in DotA; the little kids get it because they want to look cool with minimum effort. The difference is that Koishi is a fsking character.

[Dr Rawr]

Manaburn isnt utility, it doesnt start up until mid team fight, how does that help. Im not counting crits either because its reliant on your damage and chance, if you have 250% crit what good is it if you only deal 50 damage.

All ranged dps ranged have stun slow steroid and a gettaway of some sort does koishi? No, does reisen yes? Yes does wriggle? Yes does shiz? Yes does hatate? Yes does iku? Yes does tewi? Yes

Which brought me to the other point of being completly team reliant her ult isnt just viable and could screw your team over more.

Also that wasnt an opinion, its creep ai and you can control it unless you team is based around controling it, in example merlin cirno medicine or murasa.

The fact that you arent counting shiz as a carry worries me but that besides the point, ok ill give you reisen as not being able to gank. But that still doesnt address other koishi issues i have

Im not talking about melee carries or there skills, so quit bringing up flandre as a comparison. I never suggested any skills because i like suprises. If you look at other AoS type maps even ranges dps heros offer some form of utility whether its a slow stun or hell even a form of support. The fact that all she does it right click and maybe press w and hope for the best isnt a good hero concept. I still dont see why you insist on bringing up melee dps if you insist ranged dps is so different. Never have i mentioned melee never have i mention what kind of changed, never have i mention flandre.

[Pesco]

In the thread gank doesn't mean 'gang kill'

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

You people are dumb. I think that you're failing to realize that rework != buff

[Dr Rawr]

You people are dumb. I think that you're failing to realize that rework != buff

Like i said i enjoy suprises :V

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Also, from what I'm reading, Ace is stupid. :V
I mean, where the hell is Hatate in the comparison shit, or whatever?

[Dr Rawr]

Does iku not dps either :V

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

[09:34:23] <dorMizuki_Hinata> is ace arguing that all ranged carries are actually pusher?
[09:34:26] <dorMizuki_Hinata> pushers*
[09:34:27] <dorMizuki_Hinata> ??
[09:34:29] <dorMizuki_Hinata> hahahaha

Going by the logic that I'm seeing from Ace, all ranged characters should be tower pushers. :V

[Amraphenson]

also Hatate. I'll give you that lots of the ranged carries end up dpsing towers down, but so do the melee ones. :V

[Ace-Royale]

Alright, fine, I see your point about Koishi and her character concept being extremely boring to play. And I will also admit that other ranged heroes have no trouble ganking as well as being more difficult to gank compared to Koishi.

My comparison with melee heroes is because I do not think ranged carries SHOULD have those disables/escapes in the first place. They already have range to kill whoever tries to come close, and they can destroy things without exposing themselves to danger. Why should they be able to dps just as well as other heroes, or have hard disables?

But I guess that may be a problem with game balance itself, or just my viewpoint on the game... azu.

As for my classification of Shizuha/Hatate/etc as soft carry, its because their dps isn't as great as other agis once they have their cores. Koishi, Reisen, etc can defeat Shiz/Hatate in late-game, assuming similar items, because the hard carries' kits scale much better.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

As for my classification of Shizuha/Hatate/etc as soft carry, its because their dps isn't as great as other agis once they have their cores.

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Okay, so command aura+bonus AGI doesn't add to their DPS.
Nor does a 250% AS increase.
Nor does Tewi's goddamn orb.
Right?


Also, pretty sure you're missing the point completely here, Ace. :V

[Amraphenson]

Just cause you've never seen it happen, Ace, or rather haven't been able to do it yourself, doesn't goddamn mean it doesn't. Even goddamn Sniper has a fucking aoe disable that does something. Ask fucking Reimu and you'll get a big WTF at saying Hatate and Shizuha are soft carries.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Ask fucking Reimuanyone that can play the game at a somewhat competent level and you'll get a big WTF at saying Hatate and Shizuha are soft carries.

[Dr Rawr]

Tewi can crit twice in one attack :V, one for the attack and one for the passive :V

[CloverNaght]

mfw koishi can gank stuff needs more than 3 posts to solved
shes kinda like assist for gank kinda meh for a ganker (she only should gank only if theres nothing to farm nearby) because what you have at early is damage increase based on number of heroes nearby and crit which is percentage based.
one of the example is your team wants to gank solomid merlin while the allies who wants to gank her are sanae and yamame (both take dual lane so merlin obv outleveled em) of course the damage output isn't enough thats when we need koishieh. Btw do note i only gank with koishi only if i take solo lane never tried when i take dual lane
while i do agree rather than koishi contributing damage in early gank prefer just use reimu or satori
also maybe i'm the only one who dislike koishi damage+manaburn build at early prefer damage+crit

[Dr Rawr]

none of that made any sense to what we just talked about but ok  :moogy:

[Antorory]

BUG TODAY

-When Kanako use her third skill in M.O.F form and turn back to normal form [while third skill's cooldown is not finished yet], you will get a third skill from M.O.F form at lv 1 in normal form.

-Hina will broken your computer if you play it [sometime when take damage, a word like broken trigger will non-stop come off at your screen]

[CloverNaght]

none of that made any sense to what we just talked about but ok  :moogy:

ew i should learn to never post at all when sleepy badly  :ohdear:
anyway back to the topic i think yes koishi's concept is kinda derp (shes like x-hero/moomoo-like type heroes who got thrown into AoS map)
and yes you doesn't have any escape except that panic button that only useful to survive longer before they kill you (useful if you got pro supports who actually supports you i.e tp when you ulti at red hp or so)
do want koishi remake but change 2nd and 3rd skill ; 1st and 4th skill is fine
aand for next one

As for my classification of Shizuha/Hatate/etc as soft carry, its because their dps isn't as great as other agis once they have their cores. Koishi, Reisen, etc can defeat Shiz/Hatate in late-game, assuming similar items, because the hard carries' kits scale much better.

soft carry no weaker at late game compared to hard carries yes because derp balance
also ranged agis isn't always a pusher at all..pusher=heroes with aoecreepwipe that is spamable/summons/illusions/cleave&splitshot/skills that can deal high damage to nonorganic
go play more girls dots has 65 girls you can choose to kick some ass 

[Dorakyura]

I have an idea for Koishi, if noone is "facing" her directly (means when you don't look her) she will not be seen, even when attacking
(WRIGGLE 2.0  :V) True Assassin Koishi

[Helepolis]

Holy shit, sudden discussion activity. When was the last time we had this size of discussion for a girl?  (will read back to see what other people have to say, I could understand Rawr's initial comments on Koishi)

About the movie
In mean while, I decided and completed the script for few parts of the movie. Meaning we can start recording this baby. I am planning on recording several scenes this weekend (21/22 January) around: Noon my time (12:00 GMT+1). One particular scene fully requires 10 people + me as observer/recorder.

The other scenes will possibly require less. So I wish to record the most difficult scenes first so I don't have to bother people about it =)

[Dr Rawr]

I STILL WOULD LIKE A HEART THROBBING ADVENTURE SKIN

[Dular]

Noon?  I SHOULD be there...

On all this Koishi talk.. Yeah, she's boring, and not much else, but know what change I would put on her?

I would simply remove mana burn and put in a skill that her attacks slow the enemy by 30% for .15/.30/.45/.60 seconds.

[Antorory]

Innate  Memory "DNA's Flaw"

 Passive - when koishi attack an enemy girl, player target will lose controlling for 1.0 sc, cooldown 3 sc

Skill 1 Symbol "All Ancestors Standing Beside Your Bed"

 Active - Koishi will disappear in front of the target and seperate in 11 illusions and 1 real around the target. if target or other girls hit [only normal hit] the real one,this skill will stop or you can just wait until the duration end [1/2/3/4sc duration] [fake koishi don't have dmg or hp]

 Passive - old previous one [gain dmg per girl in range but lower the dmg gain to balance with this skill] [other illusion not count but will count from this skill as real girl too]


Skill 2 Rekindled "The Embers of Love"

 Active - Koishi will have a bouncing attack ability for 10 sc, the bullet can bouncing back to old target.[bouncing hit don't have any item effect except critical.]
             when koishi attack in Subconscious mode it will create the bouncing bullet from your target and have same effect like your attack in range form.

 Passive - If Koishi deal anykind of damage to any unit it will burn target's mp for 2.5/5/7.5/10 + [old calculation from previous one]

Note: [each fake koishi from first skill will burn only half of this skill ability]

Skill 3 Depths "Genetics of the Subconscious"

 Active - Koishi will deal 25/50/75/100% of her total dmg pass through an armor [if target's armor already minus it will deal like normaly damage] for 10 sc

 Passive - Koishi have a 5/10/15/20% chance to truly disappear [don't see anything even her projectile] for 0.1/0.2/0.3/0.4 sc when got hit by enemy girls and have 3sc cooldown for each disappear. Koishi have 15% chance to broken an enemy mind, lock all of target's skill and ability to attack for 0.25/0.5/0.75/1.0sc have 3sc cooldown.[different from silence so its can't deleted by any removed debuff skill]
 
 Note: truly diasppear will also make anyone who attack or skill on you to cancel its order.

Skill 4 Depths "Genetics of the Subconscious"

 Active - Old Previous old

 Passive - When activated this skill, if you just active any of other Koishi's skill in previous 3 sc it will extend a duration for 2 times

 Note: passive skill will add a duration of any skill you use following that skill duration [e.g.  you just use Symbol "All Ancestors Standing Beside Your Bed" in previous 2 sc and have 3sc duration left, you will gain 5 sc duration from this skill and will have total 8sc duration left]

 Note: when activated this skill duration the duration of Symbol "All Ancestors Standing Beside Your Bed" it will transform all illusion into same form of the real one



Note: it just my stupid idea,don't mad and throw a cucumber at me.

Note 2 : if you unlike 1st skill and think its too imbalance you can make it like get damage deal and all illusion disappear. however the number of illusion and real must be at 12 number coz that it make that skill to be a Koishi's skill.

Note 3 : Finished

[CloverNaght]

its quite interesting idea actually
innate - good but cd is too short
D - 11 illusions will causes lag and quite imba...how about 5-6 illusions
F - too imba how about wc3 moon glaive effect its the wc3 glaive didn't read carefully images having this skill's effect seems too powerful.. 10s is too long how about 2/3/4/5s
R - really broken if combined with F can causes teamwipe, again 10s is too long how about change the skill (armor peneterating seems too imba since everyone will take full damage from your attacks and thats worse than passive crit)
W - no need for changes old ulti is fine to me...subkoishi should not have F skill effect (except the passive manaburn)
well thats my opinion so yea

[Bog42]

[bugs] Reporting in! Nitori's F deals damage to everything (hits allies). When using R skill, her hp also depletes. And when I was playing with bots I found some random items laying on the ground. Later I checked some "allies' and Letty didn't have anything on her. So it could be a glitch with her randomly dropping items or something.