Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Beyond the Border~ => Akyu's Arcade => Topic started by: Ghaleon on September 07, 2009, 11:55:46 PM

Title: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on September 07, 2009, 11:55:46 PM
Hey guys, I've been seeing alot of shooter game fans say stuff like "of course _shooting game_ is better than _doujinshootergame, possibly Touhou_, it is developed by a company with alot more money and resources.

But I don't really know why people feel this way. I really haven't noticed myself appreciating a high budget shooter game more than say Touhou really. I can clearly see that the character graphics and animation aren't up to snuff with Touhou sure. I also see that enemies or targets don't flash and make a noise when hit by your bullets like they do in a game like Raiden or whatever (sounds trivial but it is rather satisfying I admit). But that's IT. I dont' see what's so much better about them otherwise. Besides, Touhou for example, includes better looking bullet patterns normally imo. So even the graphical department is pretty equal...sorta.

Just hoping you guys can shed some light on this. I'm not asking for a direct comparison to Touhou neccesarily, but more like doujin shooters versus non doujin.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shinyjam on September 08, 2009, 12:08:58 AM
Here the answer:
High budget =/ better game
Bigger company =/ better game

Maybe they will have better graphic and higher quality sound, but game design and gameplay depend on the ability of the developer who spends time developing it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on September 08, 2009, 12:43:42 AM
I really really like CAVE games.

IMO they make the best shooters.

Touhou is awesome though for being a one manned team game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on September 08, 2009, 12:48:47 AM
I haven't tried any cave games yet other than Mushi. But I'm enjoying it so far. I probably should try using my ps3 gamepad rather than the keyboard though since it was originally for arcade, movement is probably analogue, though I'm not sure.

Do you have any suggestions that are emulateable on pc (I can emulate mushi fine at full frames per second...though it chugs for like 5 seconds very early in stage 3 for some reason, not even when there's a big bullet swarm!).

I've seen videos of some other cave shooter called death smiles. But I'm not too interested in trying it quite frankly.. the music...it...hurt. I mean it just sounded god-awful. Like nails on a chalkboard bad...From what I heard anyway.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Slaves on September 08, 2009, 01:13:44 AM
any other shmup other than Touhou seems so foreign i don't even want to touch it.

i think i'll stick to my magical girls throwing things at eachother.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Nine West on September 08, 2009, 01:17:26 AM
All of this is subjective, as any other discussion, really. But yes, I do feel that ZUN's works are great, even though theoretically, high budget games have the potential to be greater.

Let's just say that I'm with Slaves here. ;)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Cadmas on September 08, 2009, 01:19:25 AM
I'm with slaves as well. I'm not a fan of Airplanes/spaceships/robots/stag beetles.
I'm in it for the moe.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on September 08, 2009, 03:31:16 AM
I just tried my very first CAVE game (DoDonpachi) and anyone who says it sucks is lying. *glares and Zengeku*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Menorah Jams, Pham on September 08, 2009, 02:49:35 PM
Man, I grew up on shmups.  The original Gradius was my favorite game amongst the early NES releases.  Gradius III, R-Type III... hell, every year I play U.N. Squadron again on an emulator.  On the PC there was Tyrian, I think one game called Raptor... Choplifter, etc.  Gradius V... I loved playing Raiden and 1943 in the arcades.  Good freaking times. 

Go play Rez, you'll feel better.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 08, 2009, 03:01:38 PM
I'm a really big fan of shmups in general, but Touhou shmups just happen to be my favorites.

I'm also really into CAVE shmups (favorites being Mushihimesama and ESPGaluda) and Psikyo shmups (Gunbird 2 and Strikers 1999 are love), but you'd be hard-pressed to get me to say no to any shooting game (with the exception of Battle Garegga. I hate that game. *is shot by the guys at Shmups forum*).

I don't understand why shmup elitists have to shit on Touhou all the time, though. With the possible exception of ZUN's character art, Touhou shmups are fucking beautiful (and even then, I find ZUN's art to be charming even if it isn't excellent) Playing them is like eating candy. Coated in sugar. With my eyes. Not only that, but the music is top-notch as well, and the only composer that I've heard in a shmup that can even compare with Touhou music is Manabu Namiki's Mushihimesama/Mushi Futari soundtracks.

I think it's pretty stupid to be closed-minded either way.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 08, 2009, 03:27:03 PM
- some games have interesting scoring systems (involving chaining enemies, chaining medals, staying alive with maximum bomb capacity, collecting hidden point items, clearing the stage without "options" -- pods. Yes, Varth, I'm looking at you >_< --, combining medals, damaging enemies with bombs instead of normal shots at the right places.. enabling hidden boss battles from where you can obtain more points, destroying enemies which in turn either destroy the bullets around them, or cancel the bullets that they've fired for massive damage points, using Reflect Barriers to turn reflected enemy bullets into point items as they hit enemies) that make you want more
- some games have somehow more interesting stages than Touhou do (some of Varth's stages demand my awareness and also have a fitting bgm, for example, in stage 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJnAUgZRhM ; I'd say that you must play this stage and others such as 6, 9 and 10 to feel what I'm trying to express. For those who don't know or have played Varth, the enemies can come from the sides, or from behind, and may will point-blank you most of the times if possible; it also encourages active bombing, since bombs refill themselves after a time), you have to move yourself more, either to damage medium/large enemies that appear on the screen, or to hit "popcorn enemies", or to avoid incoming bullets while you're busy with something else (collecting falling/grounded medals, buying yourself time to recharge your Reflect Barrier, or refill your bomb meter -- like in Varth ^^ --, etc.)
- as you progress in most games, the stages become more fun to play, and you want to play them again and again, and see how far can you get in the game (even if you've seen the later stages on youtube or reached them yourself).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: G_gglypuff on September 08, 2009, 04:07:02 PM
I think this may be a controversial topic...

At first, I didn't care for shmups because the airplane/spacecraft deal never interested me. What is infuriating is that Cotton and even Cave games were never popular in the Arcades of my country (I doubt they even showed here); had I known their games, I'd probably be a shmup nerd by now. :V

The thing with commercial games is that the level design, visuals and even depth take a backsit (even ZUN gave level design a rest in Subterranean Animism). Most of the time the only thing they have over doujin games is graphics, and it's also why they aren't interesting: do I really need awesome graphics to see a grey space colony? I guess not. Oh yes, I forgot; commercial games to tend to feature more difficulty levels, but most people aren't able to clear Lunatic, so...

Sure, I didn't play exceptions, like the shadowbringer is suggesting Varth, but from everything I saw on most shmups, I don't put any faith in commercial games.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on September 08, 2009, 04:11:06 PM
Futari's soundtrack is definitely in my top 5 favourite game soundtracks of all times.

all of the themes are amazing.. from menu music, all music stages to final boss and completion.

actually, Stage 5 theme "At the Maddening Gate" is definitely my favourite game music ever.

Still my favourite replay ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXcrfbZyOcI

The guy is insane btw. he only used one bomb at the very very end of the stage
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 08, 2009, 11:26:30 PM
- some games have interesting scoring systems (involving chaining enemies, chaining medals, staying alive with maximum bomb capacity, collecting hidden point items, clearing the stage without "options" -- pods. Yes, Varth, I'm looking at you >_< --, combining medals, damaging enemies with bombs instead of normal shots at the right places.. enabling hidden boss battles from where you can obtain more points, destroying enemies which in turn either destroy the bullets around them, or cancel the bullets that they've fired for massive damage points, using Reflect Barriers to turn reflected enemy bullets into point items as they hit enemies) that make you want more
- some games have somehow more interesting stages than Touhou do (some of Varth's stages demand my awareness and also have a fitting bgm, for example, in stage 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEJnAUgZRhM ; I'd say that you must play this stage and others such as 6, 9 and 10 to feel what I'm trying to express. For those who don't know or have played Varth, the enemies can come from the sides, or from behind, and may will point-blank you most of the times if possible; it also encourages active bombing, since bombs refill themselves after a time), you have to move yourself more, either to damage medium/large enemies that appear on the screen, or to hit "popcorn enemies", or to avoid incoming bullets while you're busy with something else (collecting falling/grounded medals, buying yourself time to recharge your Reflect Barrier, or refill your bomb meter -- like in Varth ^^ --, etc.)
- as you progress in most games, the stages become more fun to play, and you want to play them again and again, and see how far can you get in the game (even if you've seen the later stages on youtube or reached them yourself).
Varth is one reason why I'm happy I'm not in STGT this year. I suck so much at it.

Also, I just noticed you quoted me in your sig. *flattered*

Futari's soundtrack is definitely in my top 5 favourite game soundtracks of all times.

all of the themes are amazing.. from menu music, all music stages to final boss and completion.

actually, Stage 5 theme "At the Maddening Gate" is definitely my favourite game music ever.

Still my favourite replay ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXcrfbZyOcI

The guy is insane btw. he only used one bomb at the very very end of the stage

What do you think the odds are of Mushi Futari for the 360 being region-free are? I mean, Asada did say they were considering it...

Seriously, I would cry sweet tears of joy if that happens, and I'd preorder it as soon as I could.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 08, 2009, 11:38:22 PM
I'm debating with myself over whether it would be worth cheering if Futari ends up being region-free. It's just one Cave game, albeit a good one. But it doesn't exactly guarantee that Ketsui, the DOJ Black Label revision, and Espgaluda II will be region-free as well. Plus, it would be too late for Death Smiles, since that's already out. (I really want to see Dai Fukkatsu added to that list.)

Then once you include all of the non-Cave shmups as well, it would still probably be better just going for a Japanese-region 360, provided that you want more than just Futari.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Cadmas on September 08, 2009, 11:40:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMB64ZNXj8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMB64ZNXj8)

Oh boy. Whats with shumps and purple bullets?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 08, 2009, 11:54:22 PM
I'm debating with myself over whether it would be worth cheering if Futari ends up being region-free. It's just one Cave game, albeit a good one. But it doesn't exactly guarantee that Ketsui, the DOJ Black Label revision, and Espgaluda II will be region-free as well. Plus, it would be too late for Death Smiles, since that's already out. (I really want to see Dai Fukkatsu added to that list.)

Then once you include all of the non-Cave shmups as well, it would still probably be better just going for a Japanese-region 360, provided that you want more than just Futari.

That's the thing. I'm seriously contemplating getting myself an arcade cab one of these days, and Mushi Futari is the PCB I want the most. Unfortunately, that runs anywhere from $600-$1000+. If I could just import it for my 360, it would save me a ton of money. Frankly, I don't care if Ketsui/DOJ Black Label/Daifukkatsu/DeathSmiles become available to me if I can play Mushi Futari, because I want to play that so very badly.

I certainly don't want to import a 360 as well just to play Mushi Futari though, because every 360 I've had so far (yes, that is multiple) have been very unreliable. I don't want an imported one fucking up on me and then I'd have to send it overseas and stuff.

If Mushi Futari is made region-free, I'll still go for a cab eventually, but I'll focus on getting ESPGaluda II and some Psikyo shmups instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMB64ZNXj8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMB64ZNXj8)

Oh boy. Whats with shumps and purple bullets?

Purple bullets are pretty, and that scoring system actually looks like fun.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: skutieos on September 08, 2009, 11:57:13 PM
I played Ketsui Death Label and didn't enjoy it at all... I don't like ships anyway, they are cliche and boring. Touhou is seriously way better in my opinion.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 08, 2009, 11:58:17 PM
I played Ketsui Death Label and didn't enjoy it at all... I don't like ships anyway, they are cliche and boring. Touhou is seriously way better in my opinion.

I think your priorities are slightly misplaced if whatever you play as is what's keeping you from enjoying a game. The same goes to the shmup elitists who refuse to play Touhou because you control girls in frilly dresses.  :-\
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: skutieos on September 09, 2009, 12:05:57 AM
I played Ketsui Death Label and didn't enjoy it at all... I don't like ships anyway, they are cliche and boring. Touhou is seriously way better in my opinion.

I think your priorities are slightly misplaced if whatever you play as is what's keeping you from enjoying a game. The same goes to the shmup elitists who refuse to play Touhou because you control girls in frilly dresses.  :-\

Nah, thats not the only reason. I just didn't enjoy it. I got a good amount into the game and decided I wasn't having fun with it, and quit.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 09, 2009, 12:08:27 AM
I'm debating with myself over whether it would be worth cheering if Futari ends up being region-free. It's just one Cave game, albeit a good one. But it doesn't exactly guarantee that Ketsui, the DOJ Black Label revision, and Espgaluda II will be region-free as well. Plus, it would be too late for Death Smiles, since that's already out. (I really want to see Dai Fukkatsu added to that list.)

Then once you include all of the non-Cave shmups as well, it would still probably be better just going for a Japanese-region 360, provided that you want more than just Futari.

That's the thing. I'm seriously contemplating getting myself an arcade cab one of these days, and Mushi Futari is the PCB I want the most. Unfortunately, that runs anywhere from $600-$1000+. If I could just import it for my 360, it would save me a ton of money. Frankly, I don't care if Ketsui/DOJ Black Label/Daifukkatsu/DeathSmiles become available to me if I can play Mushi Futari, because I want to play that so very badly.

I certainly don't want to import a 360 as well just to play Mushi Futari though, because every 360 I've had so far (yes, that is multiple) have been very unreliable. I don't want an imported one fucking up on me and then I'd have to send it overseas and stuff.

If Mushi Futari is made region-free, I'll still go for a cab eventually, but I'll focus on getting ESPGaluda II and some Psikyo shmups instead.

That makes sense. I don't have a 360 at all, so it's easier for me to not care about region-locking. Though sometimes I thinking of fucking the 360 idea altogether and just getting a supergun. The games would be a hell of a lot more expensive and I wouldn't be able to get as many, but maybe that would make me appreciate the ones I do get more.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 09, 2009, 12:27:35 AM
I guess getting a supergun would be a less-expensive option, but damn it, if I'm gonna go out of my way to play PCBs, I'm gonna go all-out and get a full cab.  ;)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on September 09, 2009, 12:29:59 AM
wtf is the point of region locking anyway. Seriously.

edit: I thought I asked this earlier too but apparently not. Anybody know if emulating a ps2 game like Mushi on a ps3 will bypass the region lock?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 09, 2009, 12:36:22 AM
wtf is the point of region locking anyway. Seriously.

edit: I thought I asked this earlier too but apparently not. Anybody know if emulating a ps2 game like Mushi on a ps3 will bypass the region lock?

I asked the same question on Shmups forum, and here are the replies I got. (I'm the one with the Nue avatar) (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=508349#p508349)

As for the PS2-PS3 thing, I seriously doubt it, but why not try? :p
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on September 09, 2009, 12:51:05 AM
I'd try it but I don't have mushi, or a japanese ps2 to enjoy it with if it's not locked. Plus finding the game would be a pain in the ass enough just to perform an experiment. Worth the effort if it can run though.

As for the link thanks...Still not sure why. Alot of people gave conflicting answers, and none of them really sounded like they were sure about it or really knew for fact. I think we can just blame Moogy.

update: Doing some web searching seems that a ps2 region locked game still doesn't run on a ps3. Boo.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 09, 2009, 01:06:03 AM
Mushihimesama was the main reason I went out of my way to get a Japanese PS2. Then I found out that the port for Mushi is pretty bad in comparison to the PCB (bullet lag issues, the bullets slow down when they shouldn't and don't slow down when they should at times). Then I got ESPGaluda and DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou, which are good ports (even if DOJ REALLY pisses me off).

Dai-Ou-Jou DEATH LABEL is the best part of that game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on September 09, 2009, 01:16:45 AM
Buying a PCB and the equipment to use it is nowhere near the cost of buying a ps2 game and hoping it runs on your pre-existing ps3 though >=P. Even my ps3 itself was cheap. 200bucks over a year ago. It's the 80GB version too, not shabby. (was so cheap cuz some guy I know won it at a tennis tournament and he didn't play games.. so..yeah.)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on September 09, 2009, 01:18:01 AM
I never enjoyed games like Strikers and Rayden, actually because I always though ships were boring, and that's why Mushi and Touhou really caught me.

But i can't stop playing Ketsui Death Label on my DS :O
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 09, 2009, 01:18:58 AM
I'd try it but I don't have mushi, or a japanese ps2 to enjoy it with if it's not locked. Plus finding the game would be a pain in the ass enough just to perform an experiment. Worth the effort if it can run though.

update: Doing some web searching seems that a ps2 region locked game still doesn't run on a ps3. Boo.

It's really easy and pretty cheap to circumvent region protection on a PS2, if you have one, so there's there's that option as well. I went with the Swap Magic route myself, since it's an inexpensive and pretty non-intrusive solution. Plays Mushi just fine, though the port is poor. :\

ESP Galuda and Dai Ou Jou win, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 09, 2009, 01:33:41 AM
I'd try it but I don't have mushi, or a japanese ps2 to enjoy it with if it's not locked. Plus finding the game would be a pain in the ass enough just to perform an experiment. Worth the effort if it can run though.

update: Doing some web searching seems that a ps2 region locked game still doesn't run on a ps3. Boo.

It's really easy and pretty cheap to circumvent region protection on a PS2, if you have one, so there's there's that option as well. I went with the Swap Magic route myself, since it's an inexpensive and pretty non-intrusive solution. Plays Mushi just fine, though the port is poor. :\

ESP Galuda and Dai Ou Jou win, though.

Yeah, even though the port of Mushi is pretty bad, the game itself is fantastic, and definitely one of, if not absolutely, my favorite non-Touhou shmup.

ESPGaluda is a close tie though. Good port, great game, and Arrange mode is win beyond win.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Desert on September 10, 2009, 01:59:00 AM
I can't really say much on the whole commercial shooter fans disliking doujin shooters debate. Though my guess would be that they carry a company/franchise name and are developed by people who pretty much make them for a living.

Anyways, I haven't played many shmups besides Touhou. Mainly just 3, U.N. Squadrons, R-Type III, and Chariot: Adventure Through the Sky. I've been meaning to try others, but I keep forgetting to try them.

Also, I have run into debates about whether or not 3rd-person on-rails shooters count as real shmups. You know, like Star Fox 64, and Sin and Punishment. Everybody seems to agree that they're shooters, but what exactly is it that keeps them from being real shmups? Most on-rails seem require memorization to truly master them, just like most 2D shmups. The only reason I can come up with is the addition of the Z axis, and that seems like a kinda silly way to determine if something is a shmup or not.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 10, 2009, 02:02:55 AM
Desert, try out some CAVE shmups. You might like them!

As for games like StarFox, I've never really considered them as 'shmups'. I've always seen shmups as two-dimensional overall, either horizontal or vertical (3D effects notwithstanding). I guess that's all a matter of opinion, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on September 10, 2009, 02:10:25 AM
might also have something to do with the whole 1-shot = death thing. Most 3d shooters don't have such a mechanic. Which is really fundamental for the genre.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 10, 2009, 02:13:30 AM
Or scoring systems that aren't totally superficial, for that matter.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on September 10, 2009, 07:24:26 PM
Do you have any suggestions that are emulateable on pc (I can emulate mushi fine at full frames per second...though it chugs for like 5 seconds very early in stage 3 for some reason, not even when there's a big bullet swarm!).
All CAVE games up to Progear are fully working on MAME. Progress for emulation for the ones after won't be seen on MAME for several years, sadly. PCSX2 has few, also listing some other great shooters:

PCSX2:
DoDonPachi DaiOuJou (CAVE)
Esp.Galuda (Be sure to have latest beta when playing this) (CAVE)
Ibara (CAVE, although it's nothing like other CAVE games)
Gradius V

NOTE: Mushi and DOJ look actually pretty good on PCSX2 compared to what they look on PS2/TV. I was pretty shocked the first time I played them on a PS2, feels and looks way better to play on PC emulated.

NullDC:
Border Down
Under Defeat
Karous
Radilgy
Ikaruga
Psyvariar 2
Zero Gunner 2 (haven't tried emulating this though)
Giga Wing 2

ePSXe:
Soukyugurentai/Terra Diver
Raiden DX
G-Darius

MAME:
Anything by CAVE, Raizing, Takumi, Psikyo
Anything with 'Raiden Fighters' in their name (also Viper Phase 1)
Batsugun, Air Gallet, 19XX, Rayforce......
Darius Gaiden & Darius Gaiden Extra


Speaking of CAVE, there are tons of great cave doujins/clones around on PC: x.x's games, PatriotDark, Stellavanity and lots other that I forgot about right now. Usually these games tend to be a lot more friendly to beginners than the actual arcade games.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 10, 2009, 10:51:22 PM
MAME:
Anything by CAVE, Raizing, Takumi, Psikyo
Anything with 'Raiden Fighters' in their name (also Viper Phase 1)
Batsugun, Air Gallet, 19XX, Rayforce......
Darius Gaiden & Darius Gaiden Extra

Speaking of CAVE, there are tons of great cave doujins/clones around on PC: x.x's games, PatriotDark, Stellavanity and lots other that I forgot about right now. Usually these games tend to be a lot more friendly to beginners than the actual arcade games.

Wait, what? Is Batsugun fully playable in MAME now? I've been waiting years to try it out, but haven't been really keeping track of its progress.


x.x's games (http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/x_xgameroom/) have really tiny hitboxes, so they're pretty good choices for easing one into shmups with quicker and more intense pacing. Specifically Blue Wish Resurrection/Plus and Eden's Aegis.

I can't think of any other good Cave clones for the PC. There's the C76 Crimzon Clover trial which is looking to be really good, but I haven't seen it around anywhere.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8060640
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 10, 2009, 11:56:05 PM
Nah, Batsugun is still kind of buggy. I mean, you can play it properly and all, but the sound and graphics are off.

I'm gonna have to try to get ESPGaluda and Ibara to work on my computer. Any advice?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Desert on September 11, 2009, 02:32:59 AM
Well I tried Donpachi, and found extremely fun. Now I guess I'll spend another 6 dollar's worth of virtual quarters to get through another CAVE shmup. Anyways, thanks for the recommendation.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 11, 2009, 02:35:15 AM
Well I tried Donpachi, and found extremely fun. Now I guess I'll spend another 6 dollar's worth of virtual quarters to get through another CAVE shmup. Anyways, thanks for the recommendation.

I strongly recommend DoDonPachi (fuck playing that for score, though), ESP Ra.De., and Progear as well.

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 11, 2009, 02:51:52 AM
DonPachi still had a lot of Toaplan residue, if I remember my STG history. DoDonPachi is where Cave really started coming together on their own. Even though it's a bit dated now, it's still probably considered one of their best.

DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou is where Cave takes your sanity and laughs at you.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 11, 2009, 02:56:37 AM
DonPachi still had a lot of Toaplan residue, if I remember my STG history. DoDonPachi is where Cave really started coming together on their own. Even though it's a bit dated now, it's still probably considered one of their best.

DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou is where Cave takes your sanity and laughs at you.

Dai-Ou-Jou kicks you in the crotch and tells you to stand up to get kicked again. That's why I prefer DEATH LABEL, since at least THAT's short.

DoDonPachi was also the first Cave game where Ikeda's genius started showing in danmaku. There are some other more recent CAVE games that he didn't have a part in, like Ibara and Muchi Muchi Pork, and neither of them look as good in my opinion.

The ESP and Mushihimesama series are the best of what CAVE has to offer if you ask me. I don't include the DoDonPachi series in that because it's a pain in the ass to score well in that series. ;P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 11, 2009, 08:25:13 AM
Haha, I think your description of Dai Ou Jou is more accurate. :D

Yeah, Ibara, MMP, and Pink Sweets are totally different than Ikeda's style; they let Yagawa out of his cage for them. I haven't spent any time with them, but one day I'd like to try getting into Ibara (I wonder if the port looks better on an emulator...) since people claim it's plain awesome once you do. The amount of information you need to absorb to make sense of the scoring and rank systems is really daunting though, which has been the main detractor for me.


I love ESP Galuda's scoring system; I find that the visual reward you get for doing well is incredibly motivating.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 11, 2009, 12:08:04 PM
Eh. I have very little interest in Ibara since it's basically CAVE's take on Battle Garegga, a game I despise.

(which is ironic since I fucking love Battle Bakraid, which isn't much different)

EDIT: Sweet, my copy of UFO shipped this morning. Maybe I'll see it by the end of the month. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Kanako Yasaka on September 11, 2009, 04:48:43 PM
I recently discovered that my shitty processor can't run the PS2 emulators perfectly. ;_; (PENTIUM FUCKING 4)

I guess I'll have to stick with ESP Ra. De. and DoDonPachi then. :| It's probably a bad habit to ragequit everytime I die in stage 1/2 of those.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 11, 2009, 06:20:49 PM
Yeah, no. These games aren't Touhou, so they don't hand out extends like a creepy old man gives little kids candy.

The best way to get better at these games is to keep playing, even if you die. Treat it as if you paid a real quarter to play; get your money's worth.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Menorah Jams, Pham on September 15, 2009, 12:36:04 PM
Why no love for Rez ITT?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 19, 2009, 02:03:35 AM
I made it to stage 5 in ESP Ra.De. today. My score was way below what it should have been, but damn it, I'm proud of my progress so far. Maybe I can even 1CC it if I try.  :-X
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 22, 2009, 02:56:46 AM
I've been meaning to try Do-don-pachi and Mushihime for about a week now since I've recently played the cave shooter on the DS. IT IS SO MUCH FUN. The only problem is that even though I know it's possible to play Do-don-pachi on MAME, I don't think an intel inside Pentium 4 with 512 gigs of ram can do it.
What system specs will I need to run at least Do-don-pachi?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 22, 2009, 03:06:36 AM
You have Ketsui Death Label? *jealous*

MAME isn't that hard on your computer. I've played DoDonPachi on my dad's 8-9 year old computer (died just this month, RIP) and it worked just fine. I'd say just give it a whirl and see how it goes.

Mushihimesama's a whole different story though. Your system specs are going to have to be significantly higher to emulate that, or you could take the pricier, legal option of buying the game for the PS2 and using Swap Magic on your local PS2 or importing a Japanese PS2 like I did.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 22, 2009, 03:35:10 AM
You have Ketsui Death Label? *jealous*

MAME isn't that hard on your computer. I've played DoDonPachi on my dad's 8-9 year old computer (died just this month, RIP) and it worked just fine. I'd say just give it a whirl and see how it goes.

Mushihimesama's a whole different story though. Your system specs are going to have to be significantly higher to emulate that, or you could take the pricier, legal option of buying the game for the PS2 and using Swap Magic on your local PS2 or importing a Japanese PS2 like I did.

Ahh... it's too bad when you're only 14 and your only income is your lunch money (plus a few extra bucks since I'm getting hungry a lot right now, even after eating lunch) you can't really buy much. 30 dollars- two 5 dollar bills and twenty singles.

Also, if you aren't against piracy, just use a r4 or cycloDS evolution-it lets you run basically any game on the NDS.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 22, 2009, 05:09:55 AM
Where the hell did you find Ketsui Death Label for $30? Spill it. (http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/colbert.gif)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ionasal kkll Solciel on September 22, 2009, 09:27:15 AM
Why no love for Rez ITT?
Probably because... no, it's on XBox Live...  um...  no, it can be called a rhythm shump...  Hm.  I dunno.  Lack of a Trance Vibrator in the XBox release?

I remember seeing it a while back at a Gamestop.  (The PS2 version, btw.)  I regret not having enough money to get it then, since I haven't seen hide nor tail of a copy since.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 22, 2009, 09:03:34 PM
Where the hell did you find Ketsui Death Label for $30? Spill it. (http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/colbert.gif)

Lol. I don't buy NDS games anymore. After buying about 5 DS games for 50 bucks each, I realized that the NDS had very few games that I actually enjoyed, so I bought myself a cycloDS evolution. (Google it) It let's you play any NDS game, regardless of the region. Ketsui Death Label topped Trauma Center 2 for my favorite Nintendo DS game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on September 22, 2009, 09:31:47 PM
I play Ketsui Death label with my R4 as well =P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 23, 2009, 02:05:10 AM
Trauma Center 2

You have very good taste, my friend.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on September 23, 2009, 02:06:49 PM
But I don't really know why people feel this way.
Well, there are several often cited opinions on the matter. Let me play a devil's advocate here.

1. "Survival play is easy; the games don't push you hard enough."
This is true. By standards of most arcade shooters, doujin games, including Touhou (even on Lunatic), are easy to survive due to the enormous amounts of bombs, extends, and panicbomb time they offer. Cases in point: every no-vertical, no-horizontal, and no-movement replay around. Scoreplay largely alleviates this issue since you have to play aggressively to score well.

Ironically, Cave are going the opposite way nowadays: they're gradually adding autobomb as a permanent feature of their recent releases, and Futari Arrange mode has a long-lasting bullet-repelling shield a-la GigaWing.

2. "Stages are boring and drawn-out."
To a large extent, this is true. If you play a couple credits of, say, DoDonPachi, you'll notice that the stages are pretty much a non-stop rush of enemies that come in way more varied orders and waves. There are no long pauses where you can just relax or stand in one spot for several seconds, you are forced to constantly move all around the screen just to not get overwhelmed. SA and UFO are somewhat better than earlier games in this respect.

3. "Scoring systems are obtuse and feel like a tacked-on gimmick."
This is very hard to debate, especially if the game is question is Perfect Cherry Blossom, where score is comprised of a million factors that you need to account for on the fly to score competently. Personally, I consider it a great advantage of Touhou games, because, even if the scoring systems are gimmicky and unintuitive, they at least make sense. The exceptions are Subterranean Animism, which has hilariously broken Lunatic, and the entirety of MoF, which is just mediocre item chaining and killing bosses at just the right time. It's a good thing ZUN has gone for a less-punishing system with UFO, where dying once doesn't fuck you up badly for the rest of the game, as opposed to SA and especially MoF.

I won't touch graphic and music design because it's too subjective to even consider debating. For instance, nintendonut888 hates animated bullet sprites because he finds them distracting. :D

On the other hand, you shouldn't be too concerned with this kind of criticism because every game company gets criticized a lot for their game design choices. I could list a good deal of common qualms with Seibu Kaihatsu's, Cave's, Raizing's, Treasure's, Taito's, Konami's and Psikyo's shmups, and these pretty much constitute the most popular shmup developers ever. Not sure if you know this, but games like Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun get bashed on, like, a daily basis.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: G_gglypuff on September 23, 2009, 02:47:26 PM
Where the hell did you find Ketsui Death Label for $30? Spill it. (http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/colbert.gif)

Lol. I don't buy NDS games anymore. After buying about 5 DS games for 50 bucks each, I realized that the NDS had very few games that I actually enjoyed, so I bought myself a cycloDS evolution. (Google it) It let's you play any NDS game, regardless of the region. Ketsui Death Label topped Trauma Center 2 for my favorite Nintendo DS game.

Hey! You're almost like me, only difference is that DS games are expensive where I live. I still plan on buying Strange Journey though. (I wish I had Steal Princess  :'()
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 23, 2009, 10:08:24 PM
Well, I just tried out Dodonpachi and yes, it works perfectly fine on my computer. What to say.... after about 10 minutes of experimenting I figured out that you're supposed to choose to improve your shot and double tap your way through the game. Sometimes the enemies are too cluttered and it's really hard to see the animated bullet patterns. =(

Does anyone else feel bomb delay time in this game? I could have sworn I pressed the bomb button and it didn't go off. I dislike how the game will just randomly kill you- it gives you a pattern to dodge, and then gives you something that goes so fast you have to memorize it. I suppose this game would be a lot more fun if I continue at it though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on September 23, 2009, 10:27:04 PM
If you're experiencing unnatural delays, MAME might be the reason. Try an earlier version, like WolfMAME 0.99 (http://wolfmame.marpirc.net/wolfmameplus-099-vc.exe). Obviously, don't use screen filtering and Vsync. Keep also in mind that you can't deathbomb in arcade shooters. If you're hit, it's already too late.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 25, 2009, 06:57:09 AM
So I've finally given in and have gotten possession of a number of different shmups. The one I'm most interested in is Dodonpachi though. Do my eyes deceive me when I see it say you get 4 lives? o_O I managed to almost reach the stage 4 boss before continuing, but then started having to continue left and right.

And is that slowdown also there in the original arcade system? Please say it's so, because damn it this computer is recent and shouldn't be slowing down like this. :(

EDIT: ...Is this really what most shmups are like? There's so little variety in the attacks! After a point I cannot tell any difference between the levels because they're the exact same. I'm not going to be like Zengeku and curse out Cave, but...there's a reason I fell in love with Touhou when I had never been interested in shmups before.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 25, 2009, 07:44:33 AM
So I've finally given in and have gotten possession of a number of different shmups. The one I'm most interested in is Dodonpachi though. Do my eyes deceive me when I see it say you get 4 lives? o_O I managed to almost reach the stage 4 boss before continuing, but then started having to continue left and right.

And is that slowdown also there in the original arcade system? Please say it's so, because damn it this computer is recent and shouldn't be slowing down like this. :(

Many arcade shooters have slowdown, so it's intentionally emulated. (People would bitch if it wasn't.)

As for the lives, they're limited. You start out with 3, and can get four more additional lives. You can get two at 6 million points and 20 million points. Two more lives can be obtained on stages 1-3 and 2-3. To get them, you have to destroy all six yellow boxes on the sides of the large red ship near the end of the stage. The extra life will then be hidden in the control deck near the middle-back end of the ship. See here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r8BL9L7BdM#t=1m56s). Pretty much need them all for Hibachi at the end of the second loop. :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 25, 2009, 07:48:55 AM
After playing I'm a lot less enthusiastic about reaching Hibachi. ;>_> I'll give it a chance though, and ask for help: for all the aimed attacks that are...well, the latter half of the game, how do you consistently dodge through them?

Also, lack of death bombs makes this a lot more grating, being someone who relies on death bombs constantly.

EDIT: Eh...? Are you supposed to be able to access the second loop in Donpachi if you continue 9 times? That's just plain dirty, having enemies come from the bottom with no warning.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on September 25, 2009, 09:53:14 AM
DonPachi is a bit weird like that… The difficulty ramps up on stage 4 and a lot of Toaplan-era bullshit comes up, like those planes from behind. There are no requirements for looping, either.

DoDonPachi is a lot more polished, and the requirements for looping (http://shmups.com/beepreying/old/strategy/basis/etc.html) have to be met.

Try Armed Police Batrider, btw.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 25, 2009, 11:47:50 AM
DonPachi is a bit weird like that? The difficulty ramps up on stage 4 and a lot of Toaplan-era bullshit comes up, like those planes from behind. There are no requirements for looping, either.

DoDonPachi is a lot more polished, and the requirements for looping (http://shmups.com/beepreying/old/strategy/basis/etc.html) have to be met.

Try Armed Police Batrider, btw.

I gave him Batrider in the handful of games I supplied him with. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 25, 2009, 01:54:28 PM
Speaking of those requirements, does Cave have, like, security issues where they don't want people to see their game's true power? :V Those requirements are fucking ridiculous. It's my dream goal to someday reach Hibachi (or I guess Hachi), but those rules are just D:.

I did try a couple other of the games though. ESPsomething seemed a bit better...but still rather samey. Kikikaikai appears to be an amusing diversion (had to play it since it's HRtP's spiritual predecessor), and Raiden Jet Flames (did I get that right?) is hardly danmaku, but had a charm the others lacked.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 25, 2009, 04:37:01 PM
reading this made me consider creating/recording input files for Batrider/ESP Ra.De/Dodonpachi/Varth/Thunder Dragon 2/Strikers 1945 II/Twinkle Star Sprites , despite the fact I'm not.. especially good at these games (but liked them. I would do the same for Raiden Fighters Jet, but it's so easy to screw up in this game, and everytime I do, I have to reset+load state to bypass its boot sequence, it would be hard to make an input file for this game). All this, to help nintendonut get some interest in these lovely games (some of them, not exactly lovely), by seeing how others play them :D

But.. it will take a while.. (also, I must figure out a proper team for Batrider, and plan out how to use the characters across the stages)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 25, 2009, 05:20:06 PM
Speaking of those requirements, does Cave have, like, security issues where they don't want people to see their game's true power? :V Those requirements are fucking ridiculous. It's my dream goal to someday reach Hibachi (or I guess Hachi), but those rules are just D:.

I did try a couple other of the games though. ESPsomething seemed a bit better...but still rather samey. Kikikaikai appears to be an amusing diversion (had to play it since it's HRtP's spiritual predecessor), and Raiden Jet Flames (did I get that right?) is hardly danmaku, but had a charm the others lacked.

I didn't intend to give you all danmaku shmups. That's why I threw in ones like Raiden Fighters Jet and KikiKaiKai. While I personally find danmaku/bullet hell shmups to be more fun, manic shmups are fun too. Expand thy horizons.  ;)

And it's true that CAVE shmups do tend to have the same feeling to them, but that's because many of them were directed by the same guy, so they'll tend to have the similar samey-ness that one Touhou game has to another.

As for the DoDonPachi requirements, yeah I guess so. You could just work on fulfilling one requirement (that's all you need to get to the second loop, right moozooh?) like finding all of the bees in 4 of the stages or getting whatever hit chain. Like I said before, you're already weird in my eyes if you're playing DoDonPachi seriously for score. I'll leave stuff like that to the maniacs like PROMETHEUS at shmups forum. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on September 25, 2009, 05:20:37 PM
Thanks Donut, your talk about DDP made me want to go play it again, and I got all the way to 1-6 before biting the dust.  I'd forgotten just how far bombspam can get you in this game.  I should really learn to score one of these days though.  I've seen videos where players reach my 1-6 score around, like, level 2. -_- 

Also, does anyone have some kind of picture outlining where the hitboxes of the individual ships are?  I'm using the helicopter, and I'm guessing it's probably that orange dot in the top part of the sprite, but I can't be sure.  I've been having some wonky clipdeaths in this game is all.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 25, 2009, 05:26:40 PM
I'm pretty sure the hitboxes are in the center of the ships. They're pretty easy to see in the red ship and green heli because there's a definite spot in the middle of both that could be seen as such-- but on the blue ship it's a little harder to see-- I think it's right behind the pink stripe in the middle.

Don't quote me on any of that.

Quote
I'd forgotten just how far bombspam can get you in this game


Kinda like Mountain of Faith, which has a very similar scoring system to DoDonPachi as well, sans the ridiculous exponential MAXIMUM BOMB COLLECTION bullshit. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 25, 2009, 05:39:09 PM
I can't explain where the hitbox is, I've just practiced until I could figure it (the 2nd stage boss is a good exercise, I think), at least with A-L.. (people say that A-Laser and C-Shot are the most used ships.. personally I don't think that the heli's side shots are strong enough or helpful/maneuverable enough, the non-focused shot of the A-L should be fine for taking out popcorn enemies)

I agree that bombs can take you far in the game, especially against the last two bosses. They should be used, especially if you don't have the maximum bombs bonus going on, or are on your last lives..
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 25, 2009, 05:43:25 PM
Which is better to use? A-S or A-L? I seem to do the best with A-S overall.

(And it's completely different for DOJ, where I definitely do better using B-Leinyan or B-Exy. That is, if you could even say 'do better' for DOJ, when I suck so horribly at it. :P)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 25, 2009, 06:28:35 PM
I use A-L both for score and survival, because personally I find it to be stronger against bosses.. while having a decent non-focused shot when fully powered. For scoring, A-L's focused shot starts up faster and travels faster upon startup. I've gotten to stage 5 once with C-S, and liked playing it through the stage, found it to be powerful on it, but had difficulties fighting bosses with it, not because of the damage (which seemed to be equal or better than A-L), but because of the ship speed.

Besides, Laser types can damage bosses through their missiles (one example being the first boss, after it loses its side turrets)

edit: forgot to mention another advantage of Laser types.. in stage 3, there are lots of enemies that spray arrow-shaped shots downwards. With A-L, for example, you can get behind them (like near the end of the stage, and before the 6 yellow side boxes that come before the 1-up item) and laser them from behind or the sides, provided that you're careful enough to not collide with them; the laser's hitbox is greater than your ship's (well, in fact, I had max power at that point), dunno if this can be done for the Shot types, though
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 25, 2009, 06:30:40 PM
That's true I suppose. I just prefer using A in general because C is too freaking slow. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sapz on September 25, 2009, 08:09:05 PM
I've been trying DonPachi a few times lately... I didn't really like it at first but it's growing on me. :V The dodging seems less interesting than Touhou but it's a lot more fast-paced and visceral so it's still fun. Having said that I still suck at it, haven't gotten past Stage 4 on my first continue yet, so yeah.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 25, 2009, 08:13:35 PM
I decided to give Battle Bakraid another try today, and broke my old high score, and almost made it to the last stage. I am pleased. :3
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 25, 2009, 09:22:44 PM
If you're just trying DoDonPachi out for the first time, it's going to take some getting used to. I've been there, and used Touhou as the basis of my initial impressions of it. Bad move. It's just different, but in a good way. I think it's worth sticking with (or at least using it as a foothold to discover other arcade shooters).

I decided to give Battle Bakraid another try today, and broke my old high score, and almost made it to the last stage. I am pleased. :3

Battle Bakraid is probably the only Eighting/Raizing game I enjoy playing for fun. I think it's scoring system is fucking retarded, though.  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on September 25, 2009, 10:18:53 PM
After playing I'm a lot less enthusiastic about reaching Hibachi. ;>_> I'll give it a chance though, and ask for help: for all the aimed attacks that are...well, the latter half of the game, how do you consistently dodge through them?
You redirect them, you have to move around very actively. It's the main difference between shooting games and dodging games. I suggest downloading K.O's superplays at http://www.super-play.co.uk (just continue to database search and look for DDP). Or alternatively watch PROMETHEUS's input or video. (And watch DDP DOJ superplay DVD sometime if you get a chance, I swear those guys aren't human)

If you're looking into reaching Hibachi you should give it some time and not to rush it. It's way harder than any touhou lunatic. Usually watching other people play make it look a lot easier than it is because really good players are pretty good at crowd control and don't let themselves get cornered.

Personally I've played it since last december giving it an hour or two average per week and I've been making steady progress, so far my best has been 2-5 (mid part) with 106M (Reaching loop2 around 80% of my runs that make past stage 1 (I die in stage 1 more than any of other loop1 stage for some reason)). Someday I'll reach that Hibachi (I hope). Although the scariest thing is that the game starts getting a lot harder since the later part of stage 2-4. I've tested fighting against Hibachi a couple times so far... holy crap, it was way way harder than anything else in the game = totally raped.

Screw A-L and C-S. C-L ftw



Also DonPachi sucks, you can play the US version and it refills your bombs after each stage. Becomes easy as hell, 1cc'd it after 4 runs.

ps. best mame for CAVE games is wolfmame .99. Also: play in TATE, once you start doing it you want to do it for every game  8)


AAAAND playing CAVE games for survival is damn boring, the scoring is what's best about CAVE games if you ask me. If you don't like the scoring then don't play the game
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 25, 2009, 10:22:31 PM
Really, DoDonPachi was my first shmup. I wasn't even that interested in the genre until I saw someone post something about Mushihimesama on a different forum, and I was all '...TEACH ME YOUR WAYS, MASTER'. Of course, you can't play Mushi on MAME, so he gave me a couple of CAVE shmups (DoDonPachi, ESP Ra.De., and Guwange) and told me to play those for a while. I wasn't that interested in those because I wanted to play the pretty patterns that Mushi had to offer.

Then I discovered Touhou, and that was what really made my interest in the genre explode, especially long enough that I could import a Japanese PS2 and a copy of the Mushihimesama port.

So when I started playing Touhou, I drooled a little from the prettiness, of course. Okay, a lot. But I had the opportunity to sidestep the Touhou Fan Curse as well because I had already been exposed to the more unforgiving, rough-around the edges shmups beforehand.

As for Battle Bakraid, its scoring system is no more retarded than any other Raizing/8ing game's system. At the very least, you don't have to commit suicide to survive. :P


AAAAND playing CAVE games for survival is damn boring, the scoring is what's best about CAVE games if you ask me. If you don't like the scoring then don't play the game

DoDonPachi's scoring is ridiculous. I'm sorry. It's the only CAVE series I refuse to play for score. I like the game itself though, so I'll play it when I damn well want to play it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 26, 2009, 12:49:32 AM
You know, it'd help if I knew ANYTHING about scoring. :V

And did I hear that correctly when someone said that you only need to do ONE of the requirements to second loop? What about TLB?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 26, 2009, 01:29:11 AM
You know, it'd help if I knew ANYTHING about scoring. :V

And did I hear that correctly when someone said that you only need to do ONE of the requirements to second loop? What about TLB?

That's why I kind of left that note in my post for moozooh to clear up. That's what I always thought it was, fulfill one of the requirements and the second loop is unlocked, but I'm not sure.

For DoDonPachi, scoring is based on how long and well you can memorize and chain waves and waves of popcorn enemies without bombing or dying. Your chaining score is enhanced by collecting bombs past maximum capacity-- so say you have a full stock and collect a bomb past that. You'll go into Maximum x2 mode, which adds a multiplier to your chain score. Keep collecting bombs past that to boost that multiplier further. Of course, if you bomb or die, that resets, and you can consider your scoring run fucked.

Think of Subterranean Animism. When you collect green stars, your base point item value rises by 100 for each one. Collecting a lot of those along with grazing a lot to boost the multiplier is the key to scoring well. Play through most of the game and die partway through. That base number resets to the difficulty's default number. That's sort of how it is in DoDonPachi, just on a much more whacked-out scale.

I don't know all of DoDonPachi's scoring mechanics past that much though, but I'm pretty sure moozooh does. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 26, 2009, 01:35:10 AM
yes, you heard it correctly: you must do at least one of these requirements, no need to try to do them all :D (heard from LtC that the 50 million points or the 270/300/330 hit chain is the less hardest, just a note, boss chains don't count for this criteria; I've seen that for myself once when I 1cced the first loop)

trying to explain a bit about scoring (at least some basic stuff):
- ESP Ra.De: when you use the secondary shot on enemies, there are attack splashes; finish that enemy with your primary shot, and the enemy will release point items; the more splashes on the screen when the enemy is killed (by your primary shot), the greater is the multiplier (up to 16x); the more resilient the enemies are, the longer these splashes last, meaning that it's easier to get multiplied points from them (said multiplier lasts for a while, as well; for example, there are certain yellow ships at the School stage, that consists of three parts; don't shoot them yet, perform a multiplier on a different enemy, then attack these yellow ships with your primary shot and they'll release multiplied point items)
- Armed Police Batrider: killing enemies with your Aura (the aura that forms in front of your ship when you don't fire for a couple seconds, not the shot while the Aura is active) or the Bomb often yields more points than if you killed them with your shot. The game has a medalling system, in which the next medal that's generated on the screen will be worth more than the former (100/200/300/400/500/1000/2000/3000/4000/5000/6000/7000/8000/9000/10000, I think..), but if you let one medal fall from the screen, the medal level is reset back to the 100-point one (however, letting one fall from the screen while there are other/others still give a chance for you to maintain your current medal value, if you grab the medals that are left on the screen. Due to this, it's important to plan out when to get ground-based medals, because they scroll way slower and can be used to fix such mistakes); certain stage triggers (example: destroying the house in the first stage and then the billboard, instead of the billboard first, destroying all of the triangle-shaped ships in the Sky High stage and having a Mahou Daisakusen character alive by the end of the same stage) or character selection will allow you to fight additional bosses, that can be milked for score
- Dodonpachi: performing chains, bullet-cancelling (stage 3 and 5 have enemies that clear the bullets on the screen when they're destroyed), having the Maximum Bomb bonus (it seems to add your current "max hit" x the current multiplier -- 1x, 2x, 3x.. I think that using a bomb and then collecting another and thus entering the Maximum Bomb bonus will give you 1x bonus, which is why people avoid using the first bomb on the first boss -- to your score, per each 1/60th of second); the minor scoring factors are the bees (they increase in value as they're collected without dying, but their value is reset across stages, unless you've collected all of them in the same stage, in this case, their value will be one level higher in the next stage), and the stars (they're lost if you lose a life, and their amount is reset across stages, unless you're using the P2 ship). The P1 ship has the advantage of being able to increase its Boss Chain counter by using the focused bomb, but the P2 ship is said to be "for the people who don't die", due to the already mentioned benefit of the stars' amount not being reset across stages
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 26, 2009, 01:43:42 AM
I made it to stage 5 of Dodonpachi without continuing! Granted it was with no lives or bombs but whatever. :V

50 million points...is way beyond me. By the time I continued I had about 12 million.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 26, 2009, 01:56:59 AM
congratulations, donut :D
You don't have to rush yourself for the second loop, concentrate on 1ccing the first loop first, then try to improve, reach the second loop, and then Hibachi..
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 26, 2009, 02:01:37 AM
All I really want is to have the commander say SOMETHING other than "nice try kid." :( BTW, you guys said the slowdown in the emulator was done on purpose to emulate the arcade experience? I've already had at least one death because it slowed down suddenly and I didn't know I wouldn't get out of the way in time.

And Donpachi would actually be kinda fun if it weren't for the fact that ENEMIES COME FROM THE FUCKING BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN. At least when ZUN did it in Lotus Land Story he clearly marked where the enemies were about to come from. If there's no requirements to second loop or even face Hibachi though I'll probably continue spam through it all.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 26, 2009, 02:08:08 AM
I dunno about the slowdown on emulators.. can't help here, sorry..

Perhaps you might want to check out Raiden Fighters Jet as well, it also evaluates your performance through the Simulation Missions (up to five levels) and if you do well on them (which is clearly not as hard as reaching DDP's second loop), you're sent to the "Real Battle" against terrorists :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 26, 2009, 02:51:30 AM
I did in fact spend some time with it. I...don't think it's my style. The bullets are tiny and are easily mistaken with the background, not to mention fast. Also WTF there's like 15 ships how are you supposed to choose or even know what each one does except by trial and error? I went all the way through until it sent me back to level 1, which I took as an insult.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 26, 2009, 02:58:59 AM
Might want to give something by Psikyo a go sometime as well. Gunbird 2 is my personal favorite from them, but Dragon Blaze is pretty good too.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 26, 2009, 03:02:49 AM
I did in fact spend some time with it. I...don't think it's my style. The bullets are tiny and are easily mistaken with the background, not to mention fast. Also WTF there's like 15 ships how are you supposed to choose or even know what each one does except by trial and error? I went all the way through until it sent me back to level 1, which I took as an insult.

Don't you mean 'Real Battle 1'? That's pretty close to the end of the game :V

Might want to give something by Psikyo a go sometime as well. Gunbird 2 is my personal favorite from them, but Dragon Blaze is pretty good too.

I gave him Gunbird 2 and Strikers 1945 III/Strikers 1999, my favorite Psikyo games. :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 26, 2009, 03:27:07 AM
It said "this was pretty difficult for you" and sent me back to level 01. It did the same when I was on level 40 and then went to 35, so I thought it was a "lol u" thing. >_>

Just tried GunbIKEEEEEEEEEEEEEird 2. It's a shame, really, because thIKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe game seems pretty engaging and fun. However, the laIKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEck of focus not to mention the output LaIKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEg (or whatever you call it when the game takes a while to register when you press something) makes the game unplayaIKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEble.

It's quite sad that Dodonpachi is seemingly the best of all the ones I've been given, because I was hoping for better. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on September 26, 2009, 03:48:25 AM
Gawd DDP stage 3 is a clipdeath NIGHTMARE.  If I die to that stupid bullet canceling section one more time so help me... (btw, anyone have any tips for that there bullet canceling section?  :V)

Also, I agree that MAME does seem to have some really noticeable input/output/whatever lag.  It's not as bad as, say, pre-patch PCB, but it's still kinda annoying.  Anyone here know of some way to make it better?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 26, 2009, 04:00:50 AM
nintendonut: if you try to play it for survival, the game rewards you for using bombs at the right times (they're sometimes used to create a no-bullets hitbox). Not dying much (I got to Phase 1 by dying once, out of its three lives.. I've also unintentionally avoided the difficult Level 45) means you play more :D

If you try to play for score, the recommended ships are, apparently, Judge Spear (and its slave version -- to use the slaves, hold the bomb button at the game's title screen and then press Start); some (Matsuri) recommend the Fairy (the Miclus slave), others prefer the Ixion (moozooh, apparently), since survival is another part of score :D
And when you try to play for score, this is where this game.. serves as an example of risk and reward.. please refer to this page for more information

http://web.archive.org/web/20020224150902/alluro95.tripod.com/raiden/rfjsecrets.htm

and to this video (you may need VLC Player to play it) to see, in practice, how RFJ is played for score.. and this is where this game becomes crazy!
http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=2611
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 26, 2009, 04:04:33 AM
some (Matsuri) recommend the Fairy (the Miclus slave),

If the Fairy doesn't have a smaller hitbox like it looks like it does, the fact that it's got a tiny sprite sure gives a psychological benefit and illusion of a smaller hitbox. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 26, 2009, 04:13:36 AM
Also, I agree that MAME does seem to have some really noticeable input/output/whatever lag.  It's not as bad as, say, pre-patch PCB, but it's still kinda annoying.  Anyone here know of some way to make it better?

If vsync and/or triple buffering are on, try turning them off.

I wonder why some people experience input lag in Mame and/or Touhou and others don't. I've never experienced it in either, for some reason..
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 26, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
Also, I agree that MAME does seem to have some really noticeable input/output/whatever lag.  It's not as bad as, say, pre-patch PCB, but it's still kinda annoying.  Anyone here know of some way to make it better?

If vsync and/or triple buffering are on, try turning them off.

I wonder why some people experience input lag in Mame and/or Touhou and others don't. I've never experienced it in either, for some reason..

Yeah, same. I've never had any issues, and I sent Donut an exact copy of my MAME folder, just removing 85% of my roms to decrease filesizes. So the fact that he's having input/lag issues is weird to me. :/
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 26, 2009, 04:53:33 AM
Azinth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTOHnUALJOI#t=5m28s might be of help.. for safety purposes, don't kill the bullet-clearing enemies when there are no/few bullets on the screen; damage them, and then use them when they're near the bottom of the screen..

There will be one last section of these bullet-spraying enemies, where some of them are covered by other of the same kind; I usually make an opening at the right side of the screen, and then reach the big red carrier ship from there

Hope this helps :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 26, 2009, 05:07:31 AM
Is that from a Superplay DVD or something? I had no idea Prometheus was involved in the making of one of those. *amazed*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 26, 2009, 07:12:24 AM
nope, I got it from here: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23024&start=150 :D  (I've gotten word of Prometheus' score and input file, and then heard that someone has put it on YouTube.. congrats to him for such an achievement and effort)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on September 26, 2009, 01:47:26 PM
Also, I agree that MAME does seem to have some really noticeable input/output/whatever lag.  It's not as bad as, say, pre-patch PCB, but it's still kinda annoying.  Anyone here know of some way to make it better?
Most games on MAME have 1-3 (usually 2 frames, Raizing and Psikyo games tend to have 3 or higher sometimes) frames of input lag even with v-sync and other annoyances turned off. DDP for example has 1 frame which isn't too bad, any higher than 2 frames is pretty hard to play for me though.

You can check how many frames each game has by pressing P (to pause the game), then hold shift+ a directional button and press P to advance a frame at the time. You'll see that for the first frame the ship doesn't move in DDP.
There are some games with no input lag though, like Change Air Blade but most of them aren't very good.


Also, I'd recommend anyone who already hasn't to try out Cho Ren Sha 68K (http://www2.tky.3web.ne.jp/~yosshin/my_works/download.html) and Blue Wish resurrection (http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/x_xgameroom/Works/works.html). Both are free, easy and simple for beginners and one of the better shooting games ever made.

For CRS68K the first loop of the game is pretty easy but it gets pretty fun during the second loop, and in the end there's a CAVE like true last boss. Extends are every 1M.

For BWR be sure to get the original version and _not_ the plus version because it isn't as good. The original mode of the game is pretty easy, I suggest just beating it once and then going for the more fun modes (Accel and Hell).

Some other really good PC doujin shmups worth trying out: HELLSINKER, Kamui, PatriotDark (free), Zen-Ichi and StellaVanity (free)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 26, 2009, 08:42:26 PM
Are you kidding me? I never knew you could get 4 lives in Dodonpachi. All this time I've yet to 1cc the game because I can only get the 6 million life one. God damn you Cave and your coin wasting strategies.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 26, 2009, 09:29:31 PM
Hmm, Giga Wing seems pretty fun. I continued before beating the first boss though...

But yeah I'm starting to get bored of Dodonpachi. The game would be pretty awesome if it were just the first two stages, but the fact is that there's another 4 (11 actually) stages that I do not find fun. The best part about the game is the boss music IMO. It's just so cheesy awesome in how over-the-top it is. Biggest reason I wanted to reach Hibachi actually: Not for the danmaku but for the fact that I really wanted to fight a battle where that music is fitting. And for the 死ぬがよい moe appeal. <3

What exactly is the translation of 死ぬがよい anyway? I've gotten both "you should die" and "dying is good", but I'm not sure which it is. All I can say is that if it's the second then it does not make sense in any context I've seen it in.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on September 26, 2009, 09:50:44 PM
Hmm, Giga Wing seems pretty fun. I continued before beating the first boss though...

Biggest reason I wanted to reach Hibachi actually: Not for the danmaku but for the fact that I really wanted to fight a battle where that music is fitting. And for the 死ぬがよい moe appeal. <3
Just play with save states then. Fight Hibachi over and over

And if you like GW, try out Mars Matrix, it's pretty much similar but harder, more awesome and in space.

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 26, 2009, 10:16:35 PM
...Savestates?

How. If I have to use savestates to reach Hibachi I will. Hell, if Anex86 allowed them, I'd use them to set up a rudimentary stage practice for PC-98.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 26, 2009, 11:11:04 PM
And if you like GW, try out Mars Matrix, it's pretty much similar but harder, more awesome and in space.

I gave him Mars Matrix too. It's like I can foresee what you guys want him to try out, it's kinda cool.  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 27, 2009, 01:26:46 AM
You know what I really despise about Dodonpachi? You can't see your hitbox (if you can, please tell me!) the enemies will shoot you when they're almost exiting the screen, the final phase of the final boss, (how the hell are you supposed to see it, let alone react and dodge it?) and the entire stage 5- it's not fun, it's too random, and the bad input lag always makes you die with 5 or 6 bombs in stock.

Also, is there any way to play blue wish ressurection at 60FPS? I seem to only be able to play it at 75- and the game is much harder at that speed.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: KOA on September 27, 2009, 04:10:53 AM
I'm obsessed with Mars Matrix. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 27, 2009, 05:17:11 AM
;_;

I found out how to use savestates, but the game says that it cannot work for some reason. Something to do with "anonymous timers" was it? Any help?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 27, 2009, 05:20:03 AM
I didn't even know there were savestates on that version of MAME.  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 27, 2009, 05:36:24 AM
Save states don't work on newer versions of Mame with some games. Try something like WolfMAME 0.99; moozooh provided a link to it on the previous page.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 27, 2009, 07:16:36 AM
Similarly, the best part about Donpachi is the narrator guy. That guy is AWESOME, if just for his one line for the stage 2 boss:

OДO: IT'S A...! Heavy artillery barrage. :| Don't panic.

Oh, and I tried Mars Matrix. I dunno, I think I like Giga Wing better. I don't like how you don't get an instant bomb.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 27, 2009, 07:22:00 AM
Yeah, the announcer in DonPachi is pretty awesome. :P

As for Mars Matrix vs. GigaWing, I have to say I like Mars Matrix better even if it's a total pain in the ass to play at times.

GigaWing 2 is pretty great though. It's not on MAME, but I'm sure you could get it to work on a Dreamcast emulator.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on September 27, 2009, 08:20:48 AM
You know what I really despise about Dodonpachi? You can't see your hitbox (if you can, please tell me!) the enemies will shoot you when they're almost exiting the screen, the final phase of the final boss, (how the hell are you supposed to see it, let alone react and dodge it?) and the entire stage 5- it's not fun, it's too random, and the bad input lag always makes you die with 5 or 6 bombs in stock.

Also, is there any way to play blue wish ressurection at 60FPS? I seem to only be able to play it at 75- and the game is much harder at that speed.
-The hitbox is pretty clear point of the ship. It's one of those games with actually pretty clear hitbox without actually showing it.
-So 0.0172seconds is bad input lag? You do realize it's pretty much the same as the delay your screen takes to show the image.
-You can force 60FPS (From screen.txt if I remember correct) or you can change your screen refresh rate to 60FPS, either should work.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 27, 2009, 02:49:43 PM
OH MY GOD YES <33333333333333333333333333333333333333~♪ (http://kotaku.com/5368190/bullet-hell-shooter-creators-cave-going-region+free-for-next-xbox-360-game)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on September 27, 2009, 02:58:10 PM
Now if I had an X360 and enough cash to import anything..... :'(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 27, 2009, 03:27:33 PM
Asada says that this is the test for us-- that if this sells well, it will directly affect the likelihood of other CAVE ports such as ESPGaluda II and Ketsui getting region-free releases.

I'm going to support this cause as much as I can-- and I urge anyone interested to do so as well-- and preorder the Limited Edition as soon as it becomes available. I've been patiently setting money aside for this, so I have enough~!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 27, 2009, 03:52:39 PM
Asada says that this is the test for us-- that if this sells well, it will directly affect the likelihood of other CAVE ports such as ESPGaluda II and Ketsui getting region-free releases.

I'm going to support this cause as much as I can and preorder the Limited Edition as soon as it becomes available. I've been patiently setting money aside for this, so I have enough~!

And then a week before the day of release, the game get's region blocked-just my prediction.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 27, 2009, 03:57:13 PM
I'm going to kick you for being pessimistic.  >:(

The announcement that it might be region-free was made a while back, and they wouldn't pull back now after saying that it definitely will be, what with all of us excited gaijin-folk anticipating it so much.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: KOA on September 27, 2009, 04:12:04 PM
I might have to buy more than one copy now. :/
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 27, 2009, 04:27:41 PM
Limited Edition is available for pre-order on yesasia. (http://www.yesasia.com/global/mushihime-sama-futari-ver1-5-first-press-limited-edition-japan-version/1021224752-0-0-0-en/info.html)

Gonna wait and see what Play-Asia's price is first, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 27, 2009, 04:35:32 PM
You know what I really despise about Dodonpachi? You can't see your hitbox (if you can, please tell me!) the enemies will shoot you when they're almost exiting the screen, the final phase of the final boss, (how the hell are you supposed to see it, let alone react and dodge it?) and the entire stage 5- it's not fun, it's too random, and the bad input lag always makes you die with 5 or 6 bombs in stock.

Also, is there any way to play blue wish ressurection at 60FPS? I seem to only be able to play it at 75- and the game is much harder at that speed.
-The hitbox is pretty clear point of the ship. It's one of those games with actually pretty clear hitbox without actually showing it.
-So 0.0172seconds is bad input lag? You do realize it's pretty much the same as the delay your screen takes to show the image.
-You can force 60FPS (From screen.txt if I remember correct) or you can change your screen refresh rate to 60FPS, either should work.

Hmm, must be my computer if I'm getting input delay then, cause I really do feel a delay when I try to use bombs.
Also, thanks for your help with BWR. Playing it at normal speed is much more fun than 75 fps.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 27, 2009, 09:41:44 PM
OH MY GOD YES <33333333333333333333333333333333333333~♪ (http://kotaku.com/5368190/bullet-hell-shooter-creators-cave-going-region+free-for-next-xbox-360-game)

Holy shit. I'm going to buy a copy even though I have no way of playing it. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 27, 2009, 09:46:32 PM
I'm going to kick you for being pessimistic.  >:(

The announcement that it might be region-free was made a while back, and they wouldn't pull back now after saying that it definitely will be, what with all of us excited gaijin-folk anticipating it so much.

Well it really doesn't matter for me. At 14, you can't buy a 360.
Update: 2cc of Dodonpachi. I continued on the 6th stage. God I hate that stage 5 boss so much.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on September 28, 2009, 12:16:26 AM
OH MY GOD YES <33333333333333333333333333333333333333~♪ (http://kotaku.com/5368190/bullet-hell-shooter-creators-cave-going-region+free-for-next-xbox-360-game)

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS THAT'S THE BEST NEWS OF THE YEAR o/

*tears of joy*

I really wish they'd re-release DoDonPachi Daioujou RF too
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 28, 2009, 02:03:10 AM
I'm going to kick you for being pessimistic.  >:(

The announcement that it might be region-free was made a while back, and they wouldn't pull back now after saying that it definitely will be, what with all of us excited gaijin-folk anticipating it so much.

Well it really doesn't matter for me. At 14, you can't buy a 360.
Update: 2cc of Dodonpachi. I continued on the 6th stage. God I hate that stage 5 boss so much.

That the one that fires Peta Flare esque bullets that come down faster than you can get out of the way? It's stuff like that that made me give up on this game.

And I guess that's good news, that Cave is noticing that more people overseas are liking danmaku shooters.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 28, 2009, 02:11:38 AM
Note: Watch Prometheus' DoDonPachi replay that was posted earlier in here, Donut. He uses an alternate method to avoid most of those megabullets.

Also, the final boss of ESP Ra.De. has a pattern similar to Utsuho's Flare spell cards, too. It's nowhere near as hard though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on September 28, 2009, 02:13:19 AM
Azinth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTOHnUALJOI#t=5m28s might be of help.. for safety purposes, don't kill the bullet-clearing enemies when there are no/few bullets on the screen; damage them, and then use them when they're near the bottom of the screen..

There will be one last section of these bullet-spraying enemies, where some of them are covered by other of the same kind; I usually make an opening at the right side of the screen, and then reach the big red carrier ship from there

Hope this helps :D

Ah, that actually helps, thanks.  I just wasn't being agressive enough in killing the small ships around the bullet-cancelling ship it seems.  And that whole replay is really useful too, as well as crazy to watch.  Those stage-long chains... @_@. 


Quote
That the one that fires Peta Flare esque bullets that come down faster than you can get out of the way? It's stuff like that that made me give up on this game.

Those are actually fairly simple in the first loop, at least if you watch for where it's aiming the missile.  The second loop version though... I don't even see how that shit is possible without safespotting...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 28, 2009, 08:13:02 PM
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/preorderedyay.png)

I am so happy~♪
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 29, 2009, 12:33:43 AM
Just 3cc'd Dodonpachi. I still heavily dislike the danmaku, but meh...I almost made it to the stage 5 boss before continuing, and used my second continue on the stage 6 boss' last attack.

BTW, does reaching the second loop necessarily require you to 1cc?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 29, 2009, 12:40:49 AM
Pretty sure, yeah.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on September 29, 2009, 02:09:06 AM
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/preorderedyay.png)

I am so happy~♪

Where'd you buy it from?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 29, 2009, 02:30:54 AM
What is the estimated release date of the game?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 29, 2009, 02:38:32 AM
Where'd you buy it from?

NCSX. They take care of all of the importing for you, and is based in the US. (http://www.shopncsx.com/mushihimesamafutari-1.aspx) You can buy the standard edition Mushifutari there too.

What is the estimated release date of the game?

November 26.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on September 29, 2009, 10:50:32 AM
That the one that fires Peta Flare esque bullets that come down faster than you can get out of the way? It's stuff like that that made me give up on this game.
Huh? That attack is one of the easiest, even if you don't use the safe spot. I always stay between the columns of large and small explosions (their hitboxes allow for some maneuvering), but it's not too hard to unfocus and move out of the way, either. You can see where the next large explosion will fall in advance, anyway. I pretty much always bomb on the attack where it's shooting aimed blue bullets at you while the screen is covered in spam, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 30, 2009, 02:10:57 AM
It seems the replays I watch of Dodonpachi always feature that blue ship that can perform a big spread shot. Is it really the best ship to use when you're going for a 1cc? I'm currently using the red ship, while choosing to power up my shot. Currently stage 5 is the biggest wall for my 1cc and it would really help if I could manage just 1 death on that stage.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 30, 2009, 02:23:11 AM
Matter of preference, I guess. I prefer and do better with the red ship because it's fast and deals a ton of condensed damage. The blue ship is just too slow for me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 30, 2009, 02:24:41 AM
NCSX. They take care of all of the importing for you, and is based in the US. (http://www.shopncsx.com/mushihimesamafutari-1.aspx) You can buy the standard edition Mushifutari there too.

What is the estimated release date of the game?

November 26.

Update: Preorders will ship from NCSX on the 27th.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 30, 2009, 06:01:34 AM
You guys say the Peta Flare like attacks of the stage 5 boss are easy. You guys also happen to be jerks. :|

Another 3cc. I simply don't see myself ever second looping with things as they are. I can't have faith in my dodging because everything is hitbox prayer. The only time I can get anything done right is when I'm out of bombs and have no choice but to rely on skill.

And how the hell do you dodge the stage 4 boss' LOL LASER CANNON? I see no way.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 30, 2009, 06:44:37 AM
I find that flare attack a bitch too.  :D

Don't get too far ahead of yourself too fast. You've only been playing for a few days. It'll take time and practice to even get to the second loop, but if you find the game fun, then that shouldn't be a problem.

As for the 4th boss's lasers, the trick is to keep to the outside as it's moving off the screen--you'll get fucked if the boss manages to keep you between its lasers. When the boss is charging up a laser, use the opportunity to slip out. You'll have to pass across the front of the boss once or twice, but it's really easy after you do it once. See here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsTnsIm2x2I#t=2m42s). It's actually possible to bug this boss by breaking off its lasers just as it's descending to the bottom of the screen to use them (I think).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on September 30, 2009, 11:47:21 AM
That flare attack is easier if you don't safespot it. But the reason you want to do it is so you get pointblank damage on it and don't have to face its first attack again (And easily keep the MAX bonus).

You'll want to move in right away, the boss usually shoots up one nuke and takes a 'lil break, sometimes shoots even more and you can't get in right away. It's harder on the C type ship obviously.

The boss moves around in anti clockwise circle 2 times and stops shooting. You'll want to move OUT from the safespot the second time it moves down because there's around 75% chance it will shoot while moving downwards meaning you'll die.


As for shot type comparison:
C-S: Easy survival for stage 5 and 6, although C-L is way better for stage 6. Stage 2 and stage 5 are easy for getting the 330HIT for loop2 requirement.
Scoringwise it sux on bosses and you'll probably be bombing some bosses and losing MAX bonuses later stages. Also with -S type you can't pointblank the 3rd boss in the beginning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRMMNAe0jkU#t=7m30s).
A-L, B-L: Easy time till stage 5 from when on you'll need to plan your moves and redirect bullets well. Easytime getting 270/310HIT for loop2 requirement in stage 2, I'd suggest learning the route that doesn't get all the bees unless you plan on beating the WR or something. Both A-L and B-L rapidfire create slowdown in crowded areas and when lots of bullets on screen, not sure if that's a MAME bug.
Scoringwise really good IF you can survive well after stage 4.

I think C-S is good if you just want to play the game to clear the first loop and not care for anything else like score or 2nd loop. Otherwise I'd go with A-L, B-L or C-L (Sacrifice speed for side shot when going from A to C).

Also just so everyone knows:
P1 Side: Using a focused bomb (The laser bomb) when you have your MAX bomb bonus on will NOT cancel your chain, useful in stage 5 and 6.
P2 Side: End of stage star bonuses or whatever stack after each level, tiny boost in score.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on September 30, 2009, 03:09:50 PM
Knock yourself out (http://super-play.co.uk/index.php?content=2&gameid=71).

C-S is usually considered the superior ship for survival simply because you can stay near the center of the screen and spam everything with autofire before it gives you any trouble. Laser attack of stage 4 boss is also the easiest, btw. :D

On the other hand, I'm not sure you'll like the 2nd loop because it's quite noticeably harder than the first. In other words, if you can't survive the 1st loop reliably you probably have no business there. Also, stage 6 boss is going to munch your spare lives unless you practice it for some time or use 10+ preemptive bombs.

In regards to bombs, also know that fast ships (A and B) can use them more effectively if you unfocus before bombing and pointblank during the invincibility effect. It deals more net damage than laser bomb, clears the screen better and doesn't immobilize you.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 30, 2009, 03:35:10 PM
Might as well start learning now.

Can someone teach me the mechanics of scoring for Mushihimesama Futari's Maniac mode?  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on September 30, 2009, 06:29:50 PM
I hope that these can be of help :D
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11686
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15512
http://www.cave-stg.com/forum/index.php?topic=3.0 (source: previous link)
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27656
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 30, 2009, 06:37:10 PM
Ah, good to know. I'm pleased to see it doesn't have the system the original Mushihimesama had. I still don't have a grasp on the tapping frequencies. xD

New Mushi Futari port info: When you order it, it'll come with a DLC card for Mushihimesama Futari ver. 1.01. There are only 2 versions on the port itself-- 1.5 and Arrange. Black Label will come later as buyable DLC. (And I'm seriously hoping they'll make it available on non-Japanese consoles T_T).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on September 30, 2009, 06:55:38 PM
1.5 still has Original, Maniac and Ultra, right?

Arrange is only for consoles? I got very badly used to it. I played Mushi Arrange a lot, and it really hurt me when I started playing Maniac.. I never bombed.. Never lasted long.

And since Arrange was impossible because of the TLB I always had to be happy to only reach it.

it also sucked when I started playing Touhou... Having to get used to bombing... argh!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 30, 2009, 07:43:29 PM
Yep.

I'm kind of uneasy about the DLC thing. Is CAVE going to make it all easily accessible for us? I mean, while I'd gladly pay the price I paid for ver. 1.5 alone, one of the biggest selling points is that it had the other two versions as well...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on September 30, 2009, 08:00:58 PM
Cave announced that they're looking at a global release for their next game. They're even looking into distributing via Steam; having their whole library on the PC would be fantastic. Easy TATE, cheap, and a control scheme I like.

I'm starting to think that it might be a bit too early to buy a J360.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 30, 2009, 08:15:30 PM
Well, there's no requirements to face Hibachi other than second looping, right? That's what I wanna do.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on September 30, 2009, 08:55:00 PM
I suspect you'd have to 1cc the whole second loop to see the TLB.  Though if you ever find yourself with a lot of free time you could probably safestate abuse your way to Hibachi, or have you still not gotten those to work with your emulator yet?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on September 30, 2009, 09:03:47 PM
IIRC, as long as you get to the second loop, the amount of credits you spend afterwards is irrelevant for Hibachi.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 30, 2009, 10:41:49 PM
Something tells me the savestates aren't going to magically start working unless I download that earlier version that allegedly works with savestates.

EDIT: ...Okay, I just started watching one of those superplays, and it's clear I know a LOT less than I thought. How did he destroy some of the bullets? Why does the combo meter never stay active that long for me?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 30, 2009, 10:55:33 PM
Well, I just tried playing Dodonpachi with the blue ship while choosing to power up the laser. Bad idea. I tried the red ship and chose to power up the laser. Just as bad as an idea.

IF THIS GAME WERE TO GIVE ME THAT 20MIL LIFE I CAN 1CC THIS GAME. GOD DAMN IT! I GOT TO 19.4MIL AND I GAME OVER ON STAGE 6.

Yea, I seriously doubt people would keep saying how hard this game is if the game gave you 1 or 2 more lives to work with- hell, I bet if Touhou only gave you 3 lives, it'd be just as hard.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 30, 2009, 10:58:35 PM
Something tells me the reason why Touhou gets a bad rep (from what I hear) among many shmup fans is that it's DESIGNED so that you can beat it without spending years of work. Like you said, if Touhou only gave you 5 lives to go through, lunatic may very well be arcade shmup difficulty.

Also even though I don't like Dodonpachi at all, I keep getting this sick urge to play Daioujou. Does MAME even run that?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 30, 2009, 11:03:14 PM
Touhou also gets some major criticism because of its rather unimaginative environments (substituting fancy backgrounds instead of actual landscape and scenery) and boring stages (let's face it, people play Touhou for the bosses and their danmaku). However, a lot of people don't seem to take into account that Touhou is all done by one guy and his more unique way of making games. If you want a doujin CAVE knockoff, play some of x.x's games, they're fantastic too.

Of course, Lunatic difficulties very rightfully can be considered as hard as an arcade shmup. I like to think of it in this sort of way-- if I can get to stage 4 of a game like Mushihimesama, and I can get to stage 4 on PCB Lunatic, they're similar in difficulty. And in all respects, Touhou Lunatic would be somewhat harder than an arcade shmup if it wasn't for the fact that Touhou shmups hand out so many extends.

Also, no. MAME does not run Daioujou. You can, if your computer can handle it, emulate using a PS2 emulator. And something tells me you do like DoDonPachi a little, or else you wouldn't be giving it this much attention.  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on September 30, 2009, 11:11:24 PM
I am not tsundere, shut up. >_> And this computer is fairly new, but would it run a PS2 emulator...and more importantly would I care enough...?

The answer is clearly no. At least to the later.

And BTW, I think the stages in Touhou>the stages in any shmup you've given me. When you have to strain your brain to pick out differences between stages, something is wrong. IMO, Dodonpachi'd be much more fun if the stages didn't feel so copy/paste.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on September 30, 2009, 11:24:55 PM
Touhou also gets some major criticism because of its rather unimaginative environments (substituting fancy backgrounds instead of actual landscape and scenery) and boring stages (let's face it, people play Touhou for the bosses and their danmaku). However, a lot of people don't seem to take into account that Touhou is all done by one guy and his more unique way of making games. If you want a doujin CAVE knockoff, play some of x.x's games, they're fantastic too.

Of course, Lunatic difficulties very rightfully can be considered as hard as an arcade shmup. I like to think of it in this sort of way-- if I can get to stage 4 of a game like Mushihimesama, and I can get to stage 4 on PCB Lunatic, they're similar in difficulty. And in all respects, Touhou Lunatic would be somewhat harder than an arcade shmup if it wasn't for the fact that Touhou shmups hand out so many extends.

Also, no. MAME does not run Daioujou. You can, if your computer can handle it, emulate using a PS2 emulator. And something tells me you do like DoDonPachi a little, or else you wouldn't be giving it this much attention.  :P

I really do feel like Cave shmups are the polar opposite of Zun's shmups. The stages in Cave games are long- sometimes too long and the bosses in Dodonpachi are 1 trick ponies that fire bullshit at you right before they die. (Stage 2 boss and final boss) Zun's stages may not be all that (some are good, some are plain) but the boss fights are amazing.

Oh how I would kill to have a Touhou game that only gave you 3 extends- I always did feel like they gave you too many lives. Sure, that would mean I wouldn't have 1cc'ed a single lunatic, but it'd be be more challenging but still very fun to play.

Edit: Fixed that part when I talked about the bosses.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on September 30, 2009, 11:36:30 PM
I am not tsundere, shut up. >_> And this computer is fairly new, but would it run a PS2 emulator...and more importantly would I care enough...?

The answer is clearly no. At least to the later.

And BTW, I think the stages in Touhou>the stages in any shmup you've given me. When you have to strain your brain to pick out differences between stages, something is wrong. IMO, Dodonpachi'd be much more fun if the stages didn't feel so copy/paste.

Don't shoot the messenger-- I'm just telling you some of the stuff that I see on Shmups forum regarding Touhou. =<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 01, 2009, 12:08:36 AM
donut: depending on what bullets you're referring to, there are ways to destroy them.
- if you use a Laser-type ship, your laser goes through small destructible missiles (examples: Stage 1 boss' frontal shots after it has lost its side satellites; Stage 2 boss' side gunners)
- in stages 3 and 5 (and 2, before the tank midboss), certain enemies clear the bullets on the screen when they're destroyed; the more bullets they clear, the more points you gain

now, about chaining, there's one chain meter at the upper-left side of the screen, above your chain counter. It's a bar that goes down when you're not destroying/lasering enemies, and going up when you destroy enemies (either by shooting or lasering). If you're lasering enemies, the bar goes down up to a limit (the reason you see people avoiding -- most of the times -- the Power Up item before the midboss in stage 1, is because picking it will interrupt your laser, and most of the times this will interrupt your chain). When the lasered enemy is destroyed, the bar goes up a bit just like it would normally go after destroying an enemy. Chaining, say, 50 hits twice will yield less points than one chain of 100 hits. Boss Hits don't count (if I haven't said it already) for the 2nd-loop criteria.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 01, 2009, 12:17:31 AM
...Well, so much for my thoughts that the helicopter wasn't worth my time. I swear this guy is on steroids or something. In a game with so little precision compared to Touhou, how can these people be so perfect and flawless in their movements in the face of so much crap? And I haven't even seen the second loop in this video yet...I can't wait to see what's (hopefully) in store for me in the future.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 12:27:37 AM
It's very likely that the people doing the superplays have managed to optimize MAME for input lag, and are using their arcade sticks as well. That helps more than you'd think. These games aren't made for keyboards like Touhou is. I can't wait to get an HRAP EX for Mushi Futari. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 01, 2009, 12:31:22 AM
Or they're playing the actual PCB.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 12:55:26 AM
That too. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 01, 2009, 01:08:28 AM
'kay, just finished watching that superplay.

Where's the suicide button mapped to? D:

Also that's so mean-spirited it's awesome. Even if you 1cc, the game still has to have the last laugh and send you off with GAME OVER. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 01:19:38 AM
Heee. Now watch a Daioujou superplay or a Mushihimesama/Futari superplay. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 01, 2009, 01:41:49 AM
*sigh* After watching that superplay and trying for myself, I wonder why I bother? I tried various things that superplay did, like standing still for the stage 5 boss' first attack, and it simply didn't work. The worst part is somehow the commander (what's his deal anyway? I've read up the plot of this game but I don't get him) saying "Nice try kid." It's like the game's patronizing me. >_<

Oh yeah, and my highest chain was 148. With C-S. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 01:47:03 AM
You don't have to be the best at everything, you know. Just do what you can and work at getting better as you go.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 01, 2009, 01:51:57 AM
Oh, I know that. I never went into Touhou with the intentions of becoming so good, and frankly it scares me that I am. ._. I think I can equate my reasons for wanting to do this to why I beat SoEW extra (keep in mind that at the time there was one known clear of SoEW extra outside of Japan): To prove to myself that it's possible. Obviously this is much harder than that stage, but relative to my skills back then this is much the same. Except much longer and agonizing. And that rather than 1ccing I just want to second loop. The second loop is the whole reason I want to play anyway: I want to meet the infamous Hibachi for myself.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 01, 2009, 01:52:43 AM
and the bosses are 1 trick ponies that fire bullshit at you right before they die. (Stage 2 boss and final boss)

This is somewhat misguided, assuming you've based this opinion on all of Cave's bosses and not just DoDonPachi. Cave bosses have 5-10 entirely different patterns that repeat in cycles or start at a certain damage percentage (now, if you count an average amount of different patterns with a Touhou boss, you aren't going much above that, if at all). They aren't very pretty or geometric, but they're more effective at killing you, and thus more challenging to dodge. In general, Touhou's Lunatic patterns are considerably easier to dodge than Cave's patterns. But it's not a problem because Touhou is about aggressive play that rewards putting oneself in dangers unnecessary for pure survival. However, there is one Touhou game that has a lot of patterns on par with Cave's level of difficulty in regards to dodging, and it's Shoot the Bullet. Actually, if you comprise a game entirely of StB's high-level patterns, you'll get yourself DoDonPachi DOJ Death Label #2 easily.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 02:05:10 AM
Oh, I know that. I never went into Touhou with the intentions of becoming so good, and frankly it scares me that I am. ._. I think I can equate my reasons for wanting to do this to why I beat SoEW extra (keep in mind that at the time there was one known clear of SoEW extra outside of Japan): To prove to myself that it's possible. Obviously this is much harder than that stage, but relative to my skills back then this is much the same. Except much longer and agonizing. And that rather than 1ccing I just want to second loop. The second loop is the whole reason I want to play anyway: I want to meet the infamous Hibachi for myself.

Well in all honesty, a DoDonPachi 1-loop 1CC is quite an accomplishment in and of itself.

Also, Aki > Hibachi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fblc0PRc8Po) :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 01, 2009, 02:13:39 AM
Meh, Aki actually looks very easy outside of that one attack. Or is that just another illusion of the superplay?

Also there needs to be Hibachi x Aki yaoi. :V Unless Aki isn't the bug thing.

BTW, I feel like I'm spamming. :<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 03:09:59 AM
Major illusion. I've continuespammed my way to Aki and he is not as easy as he looks. Oh, and that final pattern is pretty much impossible unless you're some sort of expert, because you can't hurt him if you die or bomb, because he gets a shield for as long as you do, and actually sends a huge wave of bullshit bullets on top of the patterns if you shoot him while your shields are up.

And no, Aki isn't a bug, unless you count all characters in the game as bugs, including Reco, the 'insect princess'. *shrug*

I wonder if there's any PalmxAki incest yaoi...

And no, this isn't spam. It's discussion, and it's relevant. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 01, 2009, 04:14:32 AM
I did it! :D I second looped, I made it to Hibachi, and I KICKED HIS ASS!

In Donpachi. God, what a waste of an hour >_>
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 04:19:59 AM
1CCing the first loop of DonPachi isn't anything to be ashamed of either =<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 01, 2009, 04:27:25 AM
1cc...Donpachi...? BAH HA HA HA HA HA. No. I'm not EVEN going to try that. I seriously feel less like living after playing all ten areas.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: trancehime on October 01, 2009, 02:36:10 PM
1cc...Donpachi...? BAH HA HA HA HA HA. No. I'm not EVEN going to try that. I seriously feel less like living after playing all ten areas.

Well at least now I know I'm better at Donut at something.

Sadly they do not involve the words "Touhou" and "Windows" in the same sentence. :V

Alright, all jokes aside, first loops aren't TOO bad, but really, you will tear your hair out if you even want to 1cc the entire damn thing from start to finish. 1cc'ing the first loop sounds terrible enough (the best I could muster was a 2cc of Dodonpachi on my first few tries, but then I managed a 1cc soon enough) but seriously 1cc'ing the second loop is a royal pain in the ass :/
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 03:11:34 PM
I don't even intend to get to the second loop of any of the DonPachi series. One is enough for me. xD

Besides, working on 1CCs of Mushihimesama Maniac and ESPGaluda is ideal, because neither of them loop.  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 01, 2009, 05:10:26 PM
Watch Battle Garegga WR holder KET play Battle Garegga (and some other games occasionally):
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/garelab

People said he played Mountain of Faith once, and I remember him streaming Perfect Cherry Blossom music on a couple occasions.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 05:14:00 PM
How do you unlock all the extra stuff in Garegga? I might be willing to give it a second chance. Might.

Bakraid will always be better though
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 01, 2009, 05:25:56 PM
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=351
http://www.world-of-arcades.net/R8zing/Battle_Garegga/BGaregga.htm
There's also Zakk's patch that unlocks Mahou characters.

Also, Bakraid's scoring system makes Mushihimesama's feel intuitive.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 01, 2009, 06:07:46 PM
I don't know if I'm weird for saying this, but I find Garegga's score system more appealing than Bakraid's.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 07:47:29 PM
I don't care as much about scoring in Raizing games than I do CAVE games, so I just play them for fun more than anything-- and if I get a good score, that's cool with me too.

I did play a little bit with the Mahou Daisakusen characters, and the game is a little more... dare I say, fun. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 01, 2009, 10:49:29 PM
RAHHHHHHHHHHHHH! THIS STAGE 5 BOSS IS SO RAGE INDUCING. I'M TALKING ABOUT OVERHEAT YOURSELF, POP A BLOOD VESSEL RAGE. (I haven't popped a blood vessel yet but I've almost overheated myself) Ugh... I seriously need to take a break, but I want a 1cc of this game before the end of the weekend.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 01, 2009, 11:35:59 PM
I actually finally got over 1,000,000 points on Garegga. Consider my hate somewhat dissipated.

Bakraid is still better :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 01, 2009, 11:51:50 PM
I remember liking Bakraid's music more, but it's been a while.

Batrider's Let's Kick Ass Together ! is still the best ever, though. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 12:14:17 AM
Garegga and Batrider get respect from me musically because Manabu Namiki composed them, and he's my favorite not-ZUN composer. :P

Decided to give Gekirindan another try, and I am soooo rusty ;;
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: trancehime on October 02, 2009, 07:05:33 AM
Garegga and Batrider get respect from me musically because Manabu Namiki composed them, and he's my favorite not-ZUN composer. :P

Decided to give Gekirindan another try, and I am soooo rusty ;;

Go play Deathsmiles if you want good Manabu Namiki music.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 12:09:20 PM
If I had the means to do so, I would.

Besides, not much tops the Mushihimesama soundtracks. <3
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 02, 2009, 12:54:01 PM
Besides, not much tops the Mushihimesama soundtracks. <3

this
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 02, 2009, 02:13:15 PM
Touhou. :P The only part of Cave OSTs I'm finding myself liking are their boss BGMs, because they're so over-the-top and melodramatic. Though I admit the final attack themes of Aki and Larsa are pretty, though in context they just come off as unnerving.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 02:28:08 PM
I don't get that kind of vibe at all-- not with Larsa's TLB theme at least. I personally think it's one of Namiki's most graceful tracks. As for Aki's theme, it's a more dramatic rendition of the stage 1 theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSGicPAs-ts), which is one of my favorites overall.

Of course, Touhou music is better-- I already said that Manabu Namiki was my favorite not-ZUN composer. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 02, 2009, 03:10:39 PM
The best non-Touhou shmup soundtrack I've heard is definitely Hellsinker's.  I'd probably put it's music on par with a lot of ZUN's work tbh. Unfortunately I never really managed to get into the game itself.  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 03:14:18 PM
Hm. I haven't played Hellsinker yet. I guess this gives me a reason to check it out.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: trancehime on October 02, 2009, 03:29:16 PM
Hellsinker is hard as nails.

For me at least :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 02, 2009, 04:01:22 PM
Hellsinker is a really confusing game at first, but LtC has a nice guide for it up in the Shmups Forum Strategy section.

Agreed about it's music though. Love that first stage boss theme, but I think it sounded better in the 0.95 version.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 04:06:17 PM
Eh, I don't get this game. I'll have to look at the strategy guide you mentioned.

The music is nice, though-- I still like Namiki and ZUN's music more, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Observer on October 02, 2009, 04:57:03 PM
WARNING

AN AWESOME PRAYER IS CONFLICT WITH US

KEEP YOUR DIGNITY

(if that's not an instant-classic boss warning I don't know what it is... besides engrish at its finest)

Hellsinker is, indeed, quite hard to get into (took me a couple of months), but once you are glued, it's a one-way route. Like Darius or DoDonPachi. You'll see the speed of many of the patterns and the non-stop enemy waves along with stage designs that are quite intricate. Flying downwards, entering a labyrinth, secret bosses, secret enemy waves and bonuses the better you play, tons of firing modes and characters, two extra stages, 9 stages+3 alternate initial stages... Quite complex so I guess it's no wonder the guy (it was made by one guy) took like 4 years to finish it.

Segment 5 (the Perpetual Calendar) has to be one of the coolest/craziest bosses around.

Speaking of shooter OSTs, I think Dangun Feveron has nice music, the original DoDonPachi with its infamous 'cock rock' was quite nice too. Agreed on Garegga, Batrider and Bakkraid too, I quite like some of the tunes.

Let's not forget of Jets 'n' Guns. The music is simply awesome and, well, Zuntata has its charm with the Darius soundscapes.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 05:10:44 PM
Ooooh, I was less than 100,000 away from my second extend in Garegga. I'm starting to appreciate the game a little more now that there's a shot type that clicks with me. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 02, 2009, 05:27:29 PM
what ship are you using, btw? (I'm currently using Gain C and Gain ABC, getting my score to 2m consistently at the flamingoes)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 05:36:43 PM
MiyamotoC for me. I mean, my current high of 1.9 mil is nothing to the 10+ mil top scores on Shmups forum for Miyamoto, but it's progress for me, and it's way above last place in the STGT collective board-- even though I'm not participating this year. Gain's really nice too, but Miyamoto is just perfect for me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 02, 2009, 07:39:11 PM
Quite complex so I guess it's no wonder the guy (it was made by one guy) took like 4 years to finish it.

Didn't the original developer hand it off to some other guy (Ruminant's Whimper), or is that the same developer, only under a new name? I remember downloading the demo, ages before the game was finished, from Circulate Blue's website.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 02, 2009, 07:45:46 PM
the advantage of Gain (all versions) is that he can repeatedly use bombs, and with each use of the bomb, the flamingoes are worth more points (and they yield more points if hit with bombs than if hit by shot/option). Wasting all of my bombs there does the trick, with less effort (my motto :D) than it would take for me to survive longer and maintain my medal chain (it's just learning/practicing the place where you use the bomb, you should give it a try :D).. and learning when to bomb the second boss (or actually executing that trick :D)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 02, 2009, 07:47:18 PM
Almost made it to the end of Mushihimesama Arrange mode~

the advantage of Gain (all versions) is that he can repeatedly use bombs, and with each use of the bomb, the flamingoes are worth more points (and they yield more points if hit with bombs than if hit by shot/option). Wasting all of my bombs there does the trick, with less effort (my motto :D) than it would take for me to survive longer and maintain my medal chain (it's just learning/practicing the place where you use the bomb, you should give it a try :D).. and learning when to bomb the second boss (or actually executing that trick :D)

What are these flamingoes you keep talking about? =O
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 02, 2009, 07:56:38 PM
What are these flamingoes you keep talking about? =O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwDLHhUeI00#t=2m50s
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Observer on October 02, 2009, 08:59:50 PM
Didn't the original developer hand it off to some other guy (Ruminant's Whimper), or is that the same developer, only under a new name? I remember downloading the demo, ages before the game was finished, from Circulate Blue's website.

Circulate Blue became Ruminant's Whimper. The site itself links you to the new site along with the new Hellsinker.

So, yep, it's just one guy nicknamed Ranyon using a different name. I just hope he's working on the spiritual successor of Radio Zonde and Hellsinker...

edit: a pity he/they (for Circulate Blue) never finished Dogma.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 03, 2009, 02:49:22 AM
Circulate Blue became Ruminant's Whimper. The site itself links you to the new site along with the new Hellsinker.

So, yep, it's just one guy nicknamed Ranyon using a different name. I just hope he's working on the spiritual successor of Radio Zonde and Hellsinker...

Ah that clears it up, thanks. I originally thought the project stalled indefinitely so rather than seeing it die, Ranyon decided to give it to someone else.

I hope that he makes more games. Maybe not necessarily Hellsinker 2, but I'm sure whatever he'd create would be just as awesome.

We need another round of Hellsinkers and Diadra Empties. Hopefully C77 will deliver. Maybe it's a bit mean, but I got a bit excited when I found out that ZUN forgot to apply for a table. ;D

Is the Crimzon Clover demo still missing?

Quote
edit: a pity he/they (for Circulate Blue) never finished Dogma.

Maybe they'll pull a Siter Skain? ;)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 03, 2009, 02:51:22 AM
I'm going to try Dodonpachi again soon. V_V I'll edit this post with the bloodshed that follows.

Results: B-L (and BS :V), made it until 2/3 through stage 5 before having to continue. I really amazed myself by beating the stage 4 boss without dying, but I can see a biiiiiiig problem: Stage 5. WTF. Suddenly I get walled left and right and suddenly can't bomb to save myself consistently. Also the stage 6 boss' last attack is the dumbest thing ever.

Oh, and when I continued I had about 12 million. I suck at scoring and for once it hurts. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 03, 2009, 04:08:59 AM
in stage 5, perhaps (because there are better people than me to learn from :p) you must memorize the parts with the 2 formations of enemies that shoot aimed lines of bullets (though I haven't so far learned of a way to get past them without bombing.. haven't seen how others do it :p).
At the end of the stage, you'll find large enemies that fire two straight lines of bullets downwards, these are seen first in stage 3, and the way to get past them is simple: laser them at the outer side of their bullet lines.

I also have difficulties against the bullet-clearing (bullet vomiting as well) large stationary tank spawners that appear at the center of the screen.. haven't planned what to do on that stage, only when/where to spend bombs :p

For me, the most difficult parts of the stage 4 boss was when he loses the twin laser cannons; sometimes I die to the faster patterns and to the spread bullets+double aimed streams :p (about the rest, it's a matter of practicing the boss until you no longer gets afraid of the other patterns :D)
Stage 3's boss often take more lives from me than Stage 4's.

About scoring, the less harder options are chaining and using the Max Bombs bonus (as stars aren't a primary way of scoring, and bee collection require memorization, planning and practice). Which happens to be the funniest ones, for me :D (until the point where I must memorize or perform difficult tricks in order to score more)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 03, 2009, 05:07:14 AM
...What. I just 2cc'd Dodonpachi. o_O The darndest thing? I died twice in quick succession on stage 3 (I didn't even get to use a bomb for the second life...), then beat stage 4 without dying. Upon beating the stage 5 boss, I got to 20 million points, then got about 2/5 of the way through stage 6 before finally kicking the bucket. Damn, I really am not sure what just happened. Was with A-L BTW.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 03, 2009, 06:25:47 AM
congratulations, Donut :D

the first time I 2cc DDP I lost my credit on the 6th boss. Since I was almost finishing it, I spent another credit and lost one life (or none, don't remember now.. but might be, since I had 6 bombs..). 1ccing it will be awesome, you'll see!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 03, 2009, 06:30:41 AM
It won't feel satisfying because even though I beat it the game won't second loop. :| Like hell I'm ever going to score 50 million points, I suck at chaining and beating the game on 3 lives is just lol.

Besides, I tried again and the obvious result occured: I die in freaking retarded places and never get beyond stage 3.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Observer on October 03, 2009, 01:31:33 PM
Ah that clears it up, thanks. I originally thought the project stalled indefinitely so rather than seeing it die, Ranyon decided to give it to someone else.

I hope that he makes more games. Maybe not necessarily Hellsinker 2, but I'm sure whatever he'd create would be just as awesome.

We need another round of Hellsinkers and Diadra Empties. Hopefully C77 will deliver. Maybe it's a bit mean, but I got a bit excited when I found out that ZUN forgot to apply for a table. ;D

Is the Crimzon Clover demo still missing?

Maybe they'll pull a Siter Skain? ;)

Oh, so agreed. It's a pity, but the author of Diadra Empty got a job or something and he's currently working on an action game. Maybe it'll have shooter memories like Crescent Pale Mist but it won't be the same I guess. As for Ranyon, guy is crazy... I wouldn't be surprised if he pulls a Siter Skain or comes up with a mysterious game/demo/test with a temporary name that later on becomes the third jewel. I've been playing Radio Zonde and despite its 'unfinished' state the final battle is nothing short of brutality incarnated and if you take long enough the boss will suddenly switch to a last form and the music will change to an epic tune as it pounds death upon thee. And the boss warnings there are also awesome: "THE GREAT ONE APPEAR HERE".

As for Crimzon Clover, still missing. It seems the dev found a plethora of bugs, including something about Stage 2 boss having invincibility on some parts. Well, good luck to him and hope he releases a trial soon. SOON, please. Epic pew pew.

Stella Vanity is ok now but I so much preferred the Espgaluda-like approach and the lack of character portraits/dialogue that made it so strange...

DoDonPachi rocks. I think part of the deal is the music a lot of people seem to hate... Everything just looks brutal and metallic, the explosions are noisy as hell. Not Espgaluda but it's close and I applaud Espgaluda for the amount of noisy explosions.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 04, 2009, 04:38:24 PM
Remind me how Dodonpachi is hailed as one of the greatest shmups of all time again? I like the stages with the exception of the latter half of stage 5 and stage 6 (waaaaay too long) but the bosses (I haven't fought Hibachi yet so I can't speak for him) are... boring. The stage 5 boss is my personal least favorite boss fight of all time- worse than Shou and her curvy lasers. The final boss' final pattern... no words for how much I hate that part. Overall, I give it a 6.5- it's playable but there are A LOT of things that I dislike about it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 04:42:40 PM
Remind me how Dodonpachi is hailed as one of the greatest shmups of all time again? I like the stages with the exception of the latter half of stage 5 and stage 6 (waaaaay too long) but the bosses (I haven't fought Hibachi yet so I can't speak for him) are... boring. The stage 5 boss is my personal least favorite boss fight of all time- worse than Shou and her curvy lasers. The final boss' final pattern... no words for how much I hate that part. Overall, I give it a 6.5- it's playable but there are A LOT of things that I dislike about it.

You've been spoiled by Touhou, that's why.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 04, 2009, 04:57:01 PM
I hope it's "boring" in the sense of "I no-miss no-bomb it", because otherwise I just don't know what you mean.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 04, 2009, 05:19:34 PM
Remind me how Dodonpachi is hailed as one of the greatest shmups of all time again?

It's got Nice Explosions, duh.

Oh and on a related note, I played Mars Matrix a few days ago.  It's pretty cool, but I waited until after playing it to look up the controls so I pretty much got raped.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 05:47:04 PM
Mars Matrix exists to rape you. Such an insane game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 04, 2009, 05:49:52 PM
You've been spoiled by Touhou, that's why.

The fact that we've been "spoiled" by Touhou, a doujin game, should be saying something about Dodonpachi, a commercial game. :P

I share BoLaD's sentiments, except that I like it slightly more. I'd like it much more if there weren't such steep requirements for second looping.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 05:51:33 PM
The fact that we've been "spoiled" by Touhou, a doujin game, should be saying something about Dodonpachi, a commercial game. :P

I share BoLaD's sentiments, except that I like it slightly more. I'd like it much more if there weren't such steep requirements for second looping.

You seem to be forgetting that DoDonPachi is older than Touhou shmups as well.  Are you going to say that an NES game is bad when there's a prettier PS3 game similar to it?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 04, 2009, 05:58:43 PM
IMO, age is a poor excuse for how fun a game is today. I judge all games by one standard: Is it fun to me now? That's why the only NES games I've played that I've really liked are Kirby's Adventure, Punch-out (until Mr. Dream where I just say nay), and the Mega Man games. Games like the original Legend of Zelda IMO haven't aged well in the slightest, and I'm not going to change my opinion just because "it was really innovative and fun when it first came out."

Not that Dodonpachi really falls into that category (that's Donpachi's territory :P). It's really just a difference in opinions. Remember how I said I'm a fan of Touhou, not a shmup fan?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 06:05:11 PM
How hasn't LoZ aged well? I find it to be just as fun now as it was when I first played it 15-16 years ago.

Shmup fan or no, you have to give them credit where credit is due. If it wasn't for games like DoDonPachi, Touhou likely would still be like SoEW and tHRtP, where the bullet hell concept is rather nonexistent-- granted if it even lasts that long in popularity. As a matter of fact, ZUN uses lots of arcade shmup elements in his games. (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Touhou_influences)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 04, 2009, 06:14:55 PM
When I first downloaded the original LoZ on the VC, I tried my best to lower my standards. After all, it's an old game, right? Cue me wandering around a dull landscape where three hits from anything will kill you, there's virtually no landmarks, no indication of where to go, and it took me 30 minutes just to find the first dungeon. Granted, this was probably my own incompetence more than anything, but the game shouldn't be letting this happen at all. The dungeons themselves aren't all that bad, but if you die, you're sent back to the start with three hearts and hell if the enemies are going to ever drop enough for you to refill your life meter. The only way to guarantee more health is to trapse out to that god-awful overworld and get lost again.

Or something like that lol. I entered gaming in the N64 era, before that I was raised on Doom, Descent, and Mechwarrior 2 (yeah I played Doom when I was 2 lol), so maybe my standards are too high?

EDIT: Oh yeah. I do give Dodonpachi credit for advancing the bullet hell genre, of course. I'm just saying that ZUN takes the genre and makes it much more exciting and fun.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 06:23:56 PM
It might just be the factor of nostalgia for me and NES games, then. I was raised on them, and adore them to this day. That, and I have pretty much all of the original Legend of Zelda memorized to the point that I could probably visualize the entire world map in my mind. But to be honest, older games didn't hold your hand until you were comfortable with playing, either. :P

To be really honest, I really don't like most modern games-- it seems that they tend to focus more on graphics and less on making the games fun. The shmup genre is one of the few that seems to get better and more fun with age, which is another reason why I enjoy them so much.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 04, 2009, 06:51:08 PM
N64 era made a terrific job of pussifying gamers, actually. I don't say that the majority of games released prior were always intuitive or fair (few of them were), but the N64 era-raised gamers just don't seem to possess the skills that allowed them to beat games like Battletoads or Contra basically on a whim (I know what this is because there was a time when I beat the SNES installments of these series on a pretty much daily basis) and not constantly think of them as of hardest ever (http://games.ign.com/articles/774/774911p2.html), or speedrun Metroid without getting lost.

The definitions of fun and fair play have changed. I find DoDonPachi really fair because I don't compare it to Touhou, and don't consider Touhou the be-all end-all of shmups, either. When I'm asked about some unfair shmup, I usually name something like Super R-Type or Gradius III AC, where a single death more often than not spells doom for your entire playthrough due to painful recovery.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 06:56:47 PM
I agree. To be 100% honest, I like Mushihimesama more than I like Touhou, but Touhou has a lot more to offer in the fanbase department, and is more identifiable among fans. Not only that, there's a deep storyline to Touhou, something that simply does not exist in arcade shmups. That, and there's a ton of characters to get all starry-eyed at. In Mushihimesama, there's Reco, Palm, Larsa, and Aki. And no one really cares about the latter three :P

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 04, 2009, 06:59:28 PM
What you call "pussifying", I call "opening up to more people." There's a certain charm to a game that forces you to play it over and over again to slowly get better until you beat it (Touhou lol), but most NES games embody this via trial and error gameplay with an unhealthy dose of memorization. I actually made it all the way until 6-2 of Ninja Gaiden, even putting up with the bullshit known as the stage 5 boss, a.k.a "lol luck based fight where if you lose I send you back to the beginning of the whole friggin' world", but there's a point where I just say "no" to these kinds of games, and hearing that losing once against the final bosses sends you back to 6-2 just made me give up. Games back then relied on being super-hard to extend their lifespan, and outside of shmups I think that's a pretty dumb way to do so. Remember that games are meant to be fun, not work. I'll take a Kirby game that is pretty easy but fun over a repetitive trial-and-error game like Battletoads anyday.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 07:03:39 PM
moozooh has a point. While I see nothing innately wrong with easy games for casual gamers, the N64 era was the one with the major drop in challenging games and a huge increase of production of easy games that hold your hand through them for the casual crowd.

I'll never say no to a fun Kirby game, merely because they're a ton of fun-- well, they used to be. What happened after the SNES era I'll never know. Games don't have to be hard to be fun. But in my opinion, making a game challenging definitely adds to the enjoyment value.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 07:41:03 PM
Off-topic: Every time I add a new MAME rom, it won't show up on the list for some reason. Any idea why? Never mind.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 04, 2009, 07:51:21 PM
Pretty much everything after the 16-bit came too easy, with some psx and saturn game as exceptions.
Even the latter games from Mega Drive and SNES were already easy.

One of my favorite series is the Phantasy Star from SEGA. and PS1 and 2 are awesome while PS4 is ridiculously easy if compared to the previous 3.
Not to mention final fantasy... FF7 is a joke if compared to FF4 and 5

Games nowadays are so long because they're also easy. you never lose and start over, so they have to be bigger to be entertaining for a long time.

LoZ games are huge right now, and finishing them without dying or having to redo anything is very common...

I remember how i felt when i finished FFXII and Dragon Quest 8... They're much, much easier than their SNES versions...

Oh well
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 07:54:25 PM
Final Fantasy stopped being good after the SNES era, too.  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 04, 2009, 07:59:07 PM
I disagree.

While i do think they're much easier and some of their fun is gone, I still like them, and I really enjoyed playing FFXII =P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 04, 2009, 08:00:11 PM
What you call "pussifying", I call "opening up to more people."
More than what? People were playing games en masse since late 70s. Every housewife had the ability to play a round of Tetris (not particularly an easy game, mind you!) for decades, and a lot of them did so. It's not like game console sales skyrocketed since the N64 era, either (N64 itself was one of Nintendo's worst-selling consoles, actually).

The reason I call that pussifying is different, and consists of the fact that gamers raised on N64-era games can't even deal with the stuff "unfair" games throw at them without elaborately expressing their frustration, and instead opt to avoid it altogether. As you just said yourself, in fact. And don't tell me you've never seen YouTube commenters who can't even fathom the fact that some games are meant to kill you in less than three hits! Another wonderful side-effect is that the modern console games are all very long and, instead of raising replayability by making the game process more fun, the major developers try to artificially increase it via unlockables. Which pretty much never works if a game isn't entertaining enough to begin with.

There's a certain charm to a game that forces you to play it over and over again to slowly get better until you beat it (Touhou lol), but most NES games embody this via trial and error gameplay with an unhealthy dose of memorization.
Because we know Touhou games don't have a lot of things that inevitably kill you until you find and memorize a way through, right? Even more so in the more recent games, actually. And in every Extra stage, period. But Touhou games do have an advantage of sharing replays, so you can write off the whole "finding the routes" part so it seems way more fair.

To touch another aspect of this, Perfect Cherry Blossom scoreplay is an extravaganza of learning where to bomb or suicide for cherry, what area of the screen to go to to graze effectively, what trajectory to graze in, and so on. EoSD is pretty similar in that regard. SA and MoF both share this awesome frustrating quality of slicing up to 30% of your potential score per single death. Now that's really fair. UFO requires you to learn a precise route to summon the UFOs exactly where you need them. The Touhou games have these elaborate scoring systems for a reason, this reason being scoreplay. But since you, as a true self-proclaimed Touhou fan, don't play the games for score, you happily disregard all this and continue to hail the games as the definition of fun. I know it's only your opinion, but you aren't being fair here, either, or at least don't seem to put the whole situation into perspective.

Also, allow me to repeat myself:
The definitions of fun and fair play have changed.
Pretty much everything deemed unfun and unfair now wasn't back in the day. People could derive fun out of it then. If you can't enjoy something, it is a loss, and can't be treated as anything other than that.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 08:00:37 PM
I really couldn't stand FFXII, honestly ^^;

FFIV and FFVI are where the greatness is at. <3

EDIT: I'm really going to agree with the comment moozooh made about scoring. While there are some games I really don't like playing for score, like EoSD or DoDonPachi, with some games, playing for score is... it's like playing home run derby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRhFYV4-pBQ) playing a whole new game. Which is another beauty of arcade games in general. You can play them casually, and you can play them for score, and since the methods used for scoring well are often much more difficult than playing casually, it's like they're two different games at one time. Not to mention, getting a high score is more rewarding than any pop-up achievement an Xbox 360 game, if you ask me. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 04, 2009, 10:30:25 PM
Well guys, it seems I was a little too rough on Dodonpachi when I wrote my previous comment... I was a little angry at the time. Spending 3 hours trying to get past the stage 3 boss (a boss that I beat without dying/bombing on my first time playing) without dying and failing miserably will do that to you.

I seem to be getting better at scoring in this game. It seems if you perfect the first 2 stages, the game will start giving you a crapton of points- really useful. It's nice to go from 5mil to 12.3mil in 1 single stage. Now if only I would stop clipping on stage 4 with 3 bombs in stock, I would have gotten that 20mil life and had a chance at a 1cc.

Btw, reading these comments really makes me feel out of place. It seems everyone on this forum owns a video game console, while I only own the DS.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 04, 2009, 11:29:01 PM
I really couldn't stand FFXII, honestly ^^;

FFIV and FFVI are where the greatness is at. <3

WHAT :V

you forgot FF5, the best of them all!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 04, 2009, 11:33:08 PM
Just a step under on my list. ;)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 04, 2009, 11:40:22 PM
BoLaD: suppose you have 2 bombs or 3 bombs out of a current maximum capacity of 3 (this capacity increases by one bomb as you lose your lives, up to 6 bombs). Collecting a bomb item and then being at full capacity makes you enter the Max Bombs bonus, you'll see the word Maximum scroll horizontally at your bomb indicator, in a red background, and you'll seemingly gain points based on your current max chain hits x your current multiplier (which increases if you collect additional bombs while in this bonus mode; if you have 2 bombs out of a maximum of 3 and collect a bomb item, this multiplier will start at x1; if you have 3 out of a maximum of 3 but isn't in the Max Bombs bonus -- such as when you start the game, or when you respawn after dying --, collecting a bomb item will make your multiplier start at x2) per frame (dunno if the formula is exactly this one, haven't checked, just assuming :D)

Since the first bomb you collect in the game appears in the stage 2 (during the "popcorn" section of the stage, before the boss), you may have had this impression :D (note that this Max Bombs bonus don't award any points during boss battles, but if you manage to no-miss and no-bomb the boss, the Max Bombs bonus will be resumed in the following stage)
For me, having often said that I'm quite a greedy person (at least when it comes to playing games), maintaining the Max Bombs bonus is satisfying and attention-demanding, as much as dying during it is frustrating :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 05, 2009, 12:00:50 AM
BoLaD: suppose you have 2 bombs or 3 bombs out of a current maximum capacity of 3 (this capacity increases by one bomb as you lose your lives, up to 6 bombs). Collecting a bomb item and then being at full capacity makes you enter the Max Bombs bonus, you'll see the word Maximum scroll horizontally at your bomb indicator, in a red background, and you'll seemingly gain points based on your current max chain hits x your current multiplier (which increases if you collect additional bombs while in this bonus mode; if you have 2 bombs out of a maximum of 3 and collect a bomb item, this multiplier will start at x1; if you have 3 out of a maximum of 3 but isn't in the Max Bombs bonus -- such as when you start the game, or when you respawn after dying --, collecting a bomb item will make your multiplier start at x2) per frame (dunno if the formula is exactly this one, haven't checked, just assuming :D)

Since the first bomb you collect in the game appears in the stage 2 (during the "popcorn" section of the stage, before the boss), you may have had this impression :D (note that this Max Bombs bonus don't award any points during boss battles, but if you manage to no-miss and no-bomb the boss, the Max Bombs bonus will be resumed in the following stage)
For me, having often said that I'm quite a greedy person (at least when it comes to playing games), maintaining the Max Bombs bonus is satisfying and attention-demanding, as much as dying during it is frustrating :D

So that's what it's for. I never get the extra bomb before the final part of the stage before the boss, where I can manage to get a 150-160 chain. I can probably get that 20 mil life now.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 05, 2009, 12:07:01 AM
I seem to always die in the exact same place for the first time in stage 3 (right when you get to the big ship), and almost always die IMMEDIATELY after that. D: 's really annoying. Also stage 5 is why we can't have nice things.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 05, 2009, 01:19:18 AM
I seem to always die in the exact same place for the first time in stage 3 (right when you get to the big ship), and almost always die IMMEDIATELY after that. D: 's really annoying. Also stage 6 is why we can't have nice things.
Fixed.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 05, 2009, 01:34:43 AM
1. Goes to have 1 final go at Dodonpachi.
2. Gets to the 3rd stage boss with 3 bombs and 4 little ship icons at the top left corner.
3. Chipdeath.
4. *Stare at screen and wonder what kill you.
5. Put the game down for the night to avoid getting angrier.

Yea.... I suck.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 05, 2009, 01:57:02 AM
Joining in the DDP blogging:

I've been trying to learn how to get the stage-long chain in st. 2 (might as well get that second-loop requirement out of the way now...), and the best I've managed to do is get to the big white building right before the tank midboss.  I'm still crap at chaining, but I think it's the first time I broke 200 outside of stage 5 though, so I guess it's progress...  From all the scoring tricks I've learned I've managed to get to 28mil, which... still sucks pretty bad.  It seems like if you bomb or die once in the course of the game your score is completely fucked, so once I do one of those two things it's basically survival/bombspam play from there on.

Yesterday I actually got like a 3rd of the way through the stage 6 boss' lifebar on one credit before losing.  Of course since that one time I haven't managed to get past stage 5.  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 05, 2009, 02:36:31 AM
Gaaaah. Mushihimesama Maniac Stage 4 advice, please please please. I went in there with 3 extra lives, and didn't even make it past the first snake-dragon-fish thing. I did, however, break 50 mil. An accomplishment!~  ;)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 05, 2009, 03:20:28 AM
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Seriously...there are two places I really need to learn: How to survive the part of stage 3 once you reach the ship (specifically the part with the yellow boxes), and all of stage 5. Fuck stage 5. Stage 6 is SO MUCH easier.

I would have 2cc'd this time, but I foolishly tried facing the stage 6 boss' final attack.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 05, 2009, 03:32:19 AM
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Seriously...there are two places I really need to learn: How to survive the part of stage 3 once you reach the ship (specifically the part with the yellow boxes), and all of stage 5. Fuck stage 5. Stage 6 is SO MUCH easier.

I would have 2cc'd this time, but I foolishly tried facing the stage 6 boss' final attack.

Uploading an input file (replay) might help others give some advice for the parts you're stuck at. How to go about recording an input file is going to depend on which build of MAME you're using, however.

And hell, you might find it useful rewatching your own playthroughs to learn from them.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 05, 2009, 03:49:07 AM
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Seriously...there are two places I really need to learn: How to survive the part of stage 3 once you reach the ship (specifically the part with the yellow boxes), and all of stage 5. Fuck stage 5. Stage 6 is SO MUCH easier.

I would have 2cc'd this time, but I foolishly tried facing the stage 6 boss' final attack.

For the stage 3 ship part...

Wave 1:  Destroy the popcorn before they reach the bottom of the screen, and watch out for the bullets fired by turrets.
Wave 2:  Destroy the gray turret in the center, destroy the others while streaming their shots.
Wave 3:  Destroy the gray turret in the center, go over-top the red turrets and destroy them with your shield (you ARE using the laser shot, right?)
Wave 4:  Destroy one of the red center-turrets AS FAST AS POSSIBLE before they both spam you at once, then kill the other.  Watch out for the turrets on the sides, their shots can be hard to see.
Wave 5:  Destroy center turret, go over-top red turrets and destroy with shield.  Hopefully you destroyed the crates so you can get the 1-up.

As for stage 5... I haven't figured it out yet personally.  Right now I'm just using the tried-and-true 'don't waste the bombs' method to pull me through.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 05, 2009, 04:11:38 AM
Azinth: if I manage to maintain my chain up to the big central building before the tank midboss in stage 2, I would (iirc) laser the left side, then the middle, then the right, then attempt to laser the tanks that come at the right side from the building (dunno if it's better to destroy the tanks that are immediately spawned to increase the chain meter and then damage the central building, so that if it's destroyed, you have less chances of missing your chain before hitting the spawning tanks again before the large tank comes); dunno if this sequence is possible, because I haven't thought of it until now :D (and Prometheus' replay apparently sacrifices his chain in favor of bee collection, and doesn't do like I say :D)

Donut: for the 3rd stage, when you reach the big red carrier..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTOHnUALJOI#t=7m20s
- there will be flying enemies that will shoot aimed shots, just keep moving from one side to the other while shooting/lasering
- the turrets that spread 3-way shots shouldn't be dangerous, as their shots are slow (and predictable, if you're expecting them to appear)
- the turrets that shoot aimed streams of slow laser shots shouldn't be able to corner you (as they're fragile), just keep moving like you did for the ships and lasering them
- the turret that fires bursts of bullets while turning around will always start shooting at the left; don't worry with what side you should be, align yourself to the turret as soon as you see it and destroy it, you should be able to safespot it if it's needed (that is, just dodge the burst that's fired straight downwards)
- there will be one more turret like the one you've just destroyed, along with 4 turrets that fire straight downwards; these 4 side turrets aren't dangerous, as your laser has a large (I mean, wide) hitbox if fully powered, so you don't have to align yourself entirely to destroy each of these. Perhaps you'll want to destroy the central turret first if you for some reason can't destroy the side turrets on your way
- surprise, one more of these central turrets ^^ (surrounded by two power-up dropping ships)
- against the following double turrets, you'll have to choose one (I always choose the left one) and laser it before it can shoot (iirc), the other turret won't be dangerous if it's alone
- immediately after these twin turrets, there will be four turrets that can aim at you. Destroy these as soon as you can.
- and immediately after these, there will be cannons that fire bursts of bullets downwards, placed on both sides, and a central.. turret-thing that fires aimed lasers. You can lure its shots and then damage it until it's destroyed. You'll have enough time to destroy the remaining cannons if you want :D

Dunno how the 5th and the 6th stages are done, though..
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 05, 2009, 06:58:45 AM
Thanks for the help, but frankly, I never even remember how I play each level. The stages are just so unmemorable in their patterns that I just act on impulse and do my best to remember what's happened in the past. That could be part of the problem... :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 05, 2009, 07:34:26 AM
Thanks for the help, but frankly, I never even remember how I play each level. The stages are just so unmemorable in their patterns that I just act on impulse and do my best to remember what's happened in the past. That could be part of the problem... :V

Not to be all Devil's-Advocate like or anything, but DDP's stages are far more complex in design/enemy placement than any Touhou game's stages, so it would sort of make sense that it would be harder to remember parts of it at first. :p  But this dead horse has been beaten far enough in this thread, so let me digress...

More advice:  get a version of MAME with a savestate feature (I use MAME32ui and they work, there might be other options), and learn how to chain.  In fact, if there's one thing more than anything that would help you get better at the stages, it's learning how to chain.  Besides, if you want to see Hibachi, it's either that or 3LC the first loop, and I think we can both guess which method is easier. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 05, 2009, 07:51:02 AM
Oh, my goal is to 1cc legitimately. When it comes to second looping, I'll use every goddamn resource needed to do so. Where's a link to the emulator that works with savestates again (it's alright to ask for the emulator, just not the ROMs IIRC)?

And let me rephrase that: One of the beauties of Touhou that actually draws me to it so much is how the stages are meant to synch with what's going on. You can actually use the music to remember where you are in a stage and what's coming up. Dodonpachi's music isn't bad (the stage 1/4 themes and the boss theme in particular are pretty nice), but it's not made for this at all, making it much harder to remember what's coming up.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 05, 2009, 08:23:52 AM
Oh, my goal is to 1cc legitimately. When it comes to second looping, I'll use every goddamn resource needed to do so. Where's a link to the emulator that works with savestates again (it's alright to ask for the emulator, just not the ROMs IIRC)?

Here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2139.msg98605#msg98605) is one that's known to work. It might actually improve input lag as well.

I'll reiterate my suggestion above in case you missed it--figure out how to record and play back replays with whatever build of MAME you settle down with. They'll be just as useful here as they are in Touhou.

And let me rephrase that: One of the beauties of Touhou that actually draws me to it so much is how the stages are meant to synch with what's going on. You can actually use the music to remember where you are in a stage and what's coming up. Dodonpachi's music isn't bad (the stage 1/4 themes and in particular are pretty nice), but it's not made for this at all, making it much harder to remember what's coming up.

You're looking for the wrong cues. In DDP (and almost every arcade shooter), you can actually use the stage backgrounds, stage chokepoints, and placement of significant enemies and formations, to know what's coming up. Not only will doing so help you get through difficult parts, because you'll know where to position yourself and which enemies to prioritize, but it's absolutely crucial if you're ever going to chain well (although I'd personally not recommend trying to chain until you're comfortable with the first loop). So really, it's not like there's nothing there to guide you along; you just have to shift your focus. In more modern shmups, the stages become even more extravagant and engaging.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on October 05, 2009, 08:35:33 AM
And let me rephrase that: One of the beauties of Touhou that actually draws me to it so much is how the stages are meant to synch with what's going on.
They're not particularly synced really, at least most of the parts. You just remember it by the music, I guess the music helps you not to fall asleep during the stages too, you don't need that for DDP luckily. You'd have to play HELLSINKER to know what means music synced with the game.

And yes, Wolfmame.99 for savestates and recording inputs. Use Play and record input when you start the game and use playback input to view the replay. As for input lag 0.99 has the same input lag as newer versions of MAME (1 frame) so it shouldn't really change unless you mess up v-sync and triple buffering.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 05, 2009, 05:16:56 PM
And is that slowdown also there in the original arcade system? Please say it's so, because damn it this computer is recent and shouldn't be slowing down like this. :(

EDIT: ...Is this really what most shmups are like? There's so little variety in the attacks! After a point I cannot tell any difference between the levels because they're the exact same. I'm not going to be like Zengeku and curse out Cave, but...there's a reason I fell in love with Touhou when I had never been interested in shmups before.

Slowdown, especially in danmaku shmups, is most often intentional.

And no, most shmups are not like CAVE shmups. There are tons of different games out there to try, and frankly, Touhou stages bore the hell out of me-- when I enjoy playing stages of arcade shmups. Saying that they're all exactly the same is exaggerating by a long shot.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 05, 2009, 06:08:04 PM
How does Ibara look and play on the PS2 emulator (which I need to get around to setting up...)?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 05, 2009, 07:05:10 PM
If I had Ibara, I'd tell you :P

Either way, I couldn't effectively make a PS2 emulator work on my laptop, even after I ripped the iso from my Mushihimesama disc. With any prediction, the framerate will be subpar. =<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 05, 2009, 09:22:53 PM
RAHHAHAHAHAH! AHAHAHAHAHA! IN YOUR FACE DODONPACHI! 1CC!!!!
Yea... I told you if I got that 20mil life I could 1cc this game.

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 05, 2009, 09:43:30 PM
Got any screenshots to prove it?  :smug:
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 05, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
Got any screenshots to prove it?  :smug:

... Shit...

Now I gotta play Dodonpachi again and get a screenshot of me winning...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 05, 2009, 11:31:22 PM
Okay, I downloaded that emulator, but I can't seem to run it. How do I get it to run the ROMs?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 05, 2009, 11:41:10 PM
Gaah, what's wrong with me? I was doing so well with Mushihimesama yesterday, and now I'm losing lives left and right! ;;
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 06, 2009, 12:03:16 AM
Er, another problem. I found out the problem that made it not run, but now that it DOES run, the graphics are rather wonky. It isn't full screen (as in it's squished now), and the borders are...not straight is the only way I can explain it. It's a little wavy. Any way to fix this?

OKAY! I fixed THAT, but one final problem: The savestates still don't work! I tried them, and it SAVED state, but it brings up an error whenever I tell it to load state.

Pfeh! Turns out you can load state by exiting and going "File -> Load state", but the mapped button brings up an error. I don't wanna do that every timeeee. D:
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 06, 2009, 12:09:27 AM
Thus the reason I prefer MAME32. :P

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 06, 2009, 01:20:54 AM
Oh...oh that hurt. I got through stage 2 with only 2 bombs, somehow got a relatively good chain on the first stage, and then...died twice in stage 3 with multiple bombs in stock both times. But what hurts the most? I still very nearly make it to stage 6 before continuing despite this. I 2cc'd again.

Also I saved an input file of this. How do you view them?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 06, 2009, 01:38:09 AM
With MAME32 at least, it's File -> Playback Input. If you're using WolfMAME now, I have no idea.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 06, 2009, 01:44:49 AM
Eh, I tried for kicks trying to record input in MAME32, and it crashed... :V

But right I forgot about that option. Still...ugh. I don't think I would have 1cc'd but I could have had a decent shot at it had I not died like I did.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 06, 2009, 01:58:52 AM
I have no idea why you're having so much trouble with the program. I never have experienced any of these problems, and I've been using the exact program I sent you for ages.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 06, 2009, 04:09:42 AM
I've started a savestate run of Dodonpachi and am currently trying to sort out the last third of stage 4 without bombing. I have to say though, it's REALLY tiresome to have to exit the game just to load state. It may be only about ten extra seconds, but it adds up.

But it doesn't matter since Dodonpachi is my one true love and I want to marry it <3 <3 <3

Screw you Ruro. >:(

[ruro]:3[/ruro]

Anyway, I've managed to keep all my lives until stage 5, but...the game has decided to go LOL U. Somehow the sound got corrupted and now the sound effects don't play. I'm not gonna restart just for this, but it's not Dodonpachi without the DODODODODODODODODODODDODODODODODONpachi. :(

Also, this is saying something: I'm on stage 5, restarting the same part over and over again, and no matter what I try, I can't do the second half without bombing.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 06, 2009, 04:58:57 AM
I've started a savestate run of Dodonpachi and am currently trying to sort out the last third of stage 4 without bombing. I have to say though, it's REALLY tiresome to have to exit the game just to load state. It may be only about ten extra seconds, but it adds up.

But it doesn't matter since Dodonpachi is my one true love and I want to marry it <3 <3 <3

Screw you Ruro. >:(

[ruro]:3[/ruro]

Anyway, I've managed to keep all my lives until stage 5, but...the game has decided to go LOL U. Somehow the sound got corrupted and now the sound effects don't play. I'm not gonna restart just for this, but it's not Dodonpachi without the DODODODODODODODODODODDODODODODODONpachi. :(

Also, this is saying something: I'm on stage 5, restarting the same part over and over again, and no matter what I try, I can't do the second half without bombing.

Odd that the save state hotkeys aren't working for you. I quickly set WolfMAME99 up and had no problem. Did you set a directory for states? That's really the only thing I did. I'm guessing that if you don't, MAME won't know where to look for them. Also, save states can corrupt easily in MAME (it's supposed to be a faithful hardware emulator, first and foremost), so once you get a good one, copy it to another folder as a backup.

And there's nothing wrong with bombing. If you have to use one to get through a situation, then do it. You get so many bombs anyway, that you may as well.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 06, 2009, 05:04:21 AM
You say that, but even with savestating over and over and over to get the optimal outcome, I only just BARELY second looped by only dying twice. And then I realized that it is a hollow victory if I have no freaking sound at all, so I threw the last hour of work away and savestated at the very beginning of the game.

And I have to set up a directory now? ??? How would I do that?

Wait, yeah, there is a directory. I simply have to manually exit the game and tell it to load state for it to register. Really annoying, I have no idea why the load state button doesn't work.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 06, 2009, 05:09:48 AM
Select Directories from the Options drop-down menu. Select State from the drop down menu in the dialogue box that pops up. Hit Browse, navigate to the folder that contains the save states, and set it to that. You might have to do the same for input files (*inp) to get those working correctly as well. Hope that works.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 06, 2009, 05:28:58 AM
Tried Dodonpachi.....doesn't appeal to me at all. It's just a bunch of streaming.
Never liked shmups either, but I love Touhou for some reason :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 06, 2009, 05:37:40 AM
Nope Aisha, doesn't work. :( Nothing works. Clearly Cave hates me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 06, 2009, 09:49:26 PM
Oh...oh that hurt. I got through stage 2 with only 2 bombs, somehow got a relatively good chain on the first stage, and then...died twice in stage 3 with multiple bombs in stock both times. But what hurts the most? I still very nearly make it to stage 6 before continuing despite this. I 2cc'd again.

Also I saved an input file of this. How do you view them?

Now why would you have so much trouble with stage 2? Whenever I use a bomb in stage 2, I just reset the game. If you're talking about the final attack the 2nd boss uses, I personally keep shooting the boss until the game tells you "Just a couple more shots" and then I move into the boss' missiles while still shooting-prevents you from finishing off the boss while keeping yourself alive.  I wait until the boss starts shooting little blue lines and then I finish it off- it's very easy to micrododge that thing.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 06, 2009, 11:08:56 PM
Because I suck. :(

Also it probably has something to do with me trying my best to score on the stage (since I hear you can do the second loop requirement for a chain right there). Remind me again how this asanine system works? Why sometimes you get nearly two seconds to continue the chain while others end instantly?

Oh, never mind, I'll figure this out eventually because I love this game so much <3 <3 <3
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 06, 2009, 11:37:07 PM
Well, there are two main aspects to it.

1. Don't bomb or die and watch your score skyrocket from the MAXIMUM bonus.
2. Chain enemies with clever usage of both shot and laser and don't let the gauge deplete. Full gauge depletes in 60 frames, one popcorn enemy generally fills it by 50%, large enemies usually give less. All large enemies must be chained with laser because, unless there are fragments to destroy within the time limit, you will break the chain. Lasering them keeps the gauge on but leaves it almost empty (less than 10 frames, iirc), so they are best chained directly into some popcorn stuff.

While hidden bees are arguably the easiest way to hit the 2nd loop, they don't do shit for score. Rely on MAX bonus primarily — chains don't do much until stage 4.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 12:27:26 AM
So basically if you choose the A type you're screwed. >_>

Oh, and I finally figured out loading state. It had to do with where I was mapping them.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 12:41:32 AM
So basically if you choose the A type you're screwed. >_>

How so? Isn't the WR owned by someone who used A type? :P

Also, it's really blurry, but there's new art for the Limited Edition version of Mushihimesama Futari.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/photo.jpg)

I think it looks adorable, but some of the guys on Shmups forum hate it. xD
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 07, 2009, 12:45:05 AM
Type A is much better for dodging and fighting bosses, but it has far more trouble with crowd control, unlike type C. And since I tend to have more trouble with the stages overall (not counting really stupid deaths), C-S is far more effective for me both in scoring and survival.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 12:51:55 AM
I can't survive very well at all with the C-type. It's too slow.  :-\

I stick with A most of the time, but I won't say no to the B-type once in a while.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 12:59:25 AM
Same here. The reason I can't stand Reimu in EoSD and PCB is that she is just too freaking slow. When I die I want it to be because of an error in dodging, not because my character was too slow to even have a chance to get out of the way.

Taking those tips in mind, I...still suck at scoring. :P But I understand it just a bit more.

And I know EXACTLY what is killing me/making me bomb in stage 2: The boss' attack where it sandwiches you in between those destructible missiles and shoots those rapid fire blue bullets. With Dodonpachi's twitchy movement I almost always get hit at some point or another. I'm actually much better against the stage 3 boss, and have no idea why people say it's hard. :\

EDIT: Er...WTF? On the stage 1 boss, I destroy the auxilary shooters for the first time ever (how do you do this consistently BTW?), and suddenly my boss hit chain SKYTROCKETED. Eh...?

And while I'm here, how do you do that fucking attack the stage 5 boss constantly uses? In that superplay I watched the guy beat it without even moving, but I can't beat it at all.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 01:27:09 AM
See, that's weird for me, because I prefer Reimu in most Touhou games because she's slower, and I tend to make less mistakes with her. It's fine, because there really aren't many things in Touhou that I'd consider to be 'fast'-- more like so slow that it becomes a mess of bullets that you'll run into if you're too fast.

It seems that in all shmups that aren't Touhou, I prefer the fast, straight-shooting types.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 07, 2009, 01:31:25 AM
How so? Isn't the WR owned by someone who used A type? :P

Also, it's really blurry, but there's new art for the Limited Edition version of Mushihimesama Futari.

I think it looks adorable, but some of the guys on Shmups forum hate it. xD

That cover is really nice. Will the regular edition have the same one?

Same here. The reason I can't stand Reimu in EoSD and PCB is that she is just too freaking slow. When I die I want it to be because of an error in dodging, not because my character was too slow to even have a chance to get out of the way.

Taking those tips in mind, I...still suck at scoring. :P But I understand it just a bit more.

And I know EXACTLY what is killing me/making me bomb in stage 2: The boss' attack where it sandwiches you in between those destructible missiles and shoots those rapid fire blue bullets. With Dodonpachi's twitchy movement I almost always get hit at some point or another. I'm actually much better against the stage 3 boss, and have no idea why people say it's hard. :\

EDIT: Er...WTF? On the stage 1 boss, I destroy the auxilary shooters for the first time ever (how do you do this consistently BTW?), and suddenly my boss hit chain SKYTROCKETED. Eh...?

And while I'm here, how do you do that fucking attack the stage 5 boss constantly uses? In that superplay I watched the guy beat it without even moving, but I can't beat it at all.

A-L and C-S seem to be the most popular ships. Both seem to have their own caveats when it comes to survival and scoring, so you just have to go with the one that suits you best (or pick one of the other types).

As for the stage 2 boss, I don't even remember it having destructible missiles. I always take out all of the breakable parts (3 on each side), which forces the boss to cycle between 2 attacks. Though it gets really angry when its lifebar goes into the red; I'm not sure if breaking parts has anything to do with it getting angry.

For breaking the stage 1 boss's turrets, I start the fight hugging a side of the screen so that only the edge of my laser is hitting the turret. The boss will then kind of move the turret I'm working on off the screen, so I move across and continue on the other one; they both share the same health. Once they're flashing red, I then wait until the boss rotates them about before taking them out, so that they both die in front of the boss and release a bunch of large stars. I'm not sure what made your boss chain skyrocket though. I just checked a superplay and the player didn't reproduce it.

No idea on stage 5. That boss is mean.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 01:36:05 AM
Sorry, that was poorly phrased. When I said my chain skyrocketed, I meant that after destroying the turrets my chain started going up about twice as fast as it did before. Just fighting the boss normally I usually get around 60 shots, but that run my chain went up into the 80s.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 01:36:34 AM
As far as I know, no.

This is the Standard Version's cover:
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/4988648688506_500.jpg)

Still really nice, and I'm not even sure if the LE cover is just the special LE slipcase only or if it's on the game itself-- because if I understand right, the game itself is the same as the standard version, but it just comes with the slipcase and a 2-disc OST (which, if I heard right, contains an arrangement of the original Mushihimesama as well). Either way, the music makes it worth the extra $30.  :)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 07, 2009, 01:46:22 AM
Sorry, that was poorly phrased. When I said my chain skyrocketed, I meant that after destroying the turrets my chain started going up about twice as fast as it did before. Just fighting the boss normally I usually get around 60 shots, but that run my chain went up into the 80s.

Oh. When you're hitting the turrets you aren't actually damaging the boss. :P So then you're able to carry the chain from the turrets over to the boss itself, ending up with a higher total boss chain.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 07, 2009, 02:01:37 AM
And while I'm here, how do you do that fucking attack the stage 5 boss constantly uses? In that superplay I watched the guy beat it without even moving, but I can't beat it at all.
Watch exactly how the player positions himself. Most of the attack is loosely aimed, and the blue stream has no bullets aimed directly at you. But don't bother reproducing it because it's harder unless you really know what you're doing. The second volley has to be streamed away by swiping from one side of the screen to the other, anyway.


The boss will then kind of move the turret I'm working on off the screen, so I move across and continue on the other one; they both share the same health.
Yes and no. They don't share the same health, but if one is destroyed, so is the other.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 02:08:43 AM
No no no, I'm saying the boss chain meter definitely went up faster than it did before. I saw it with my own eyes.

Also I suddenly seem to be improving a bit. Memo to self: In the section where you can blow up the ships for massive damage points, don't bother with the second. It's bad for my score/survival.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 07, 2009, 02:09:25 AM
Either way, the music makes it worth the extra $30.  :)

Definitely. That music is fucking great. I'm not sure if I'll preorder though, since I also need to get a J360. Still need to make up my mind about that; hopefully there will be a Christmas price cut or something. My wallet cries when I remember that I have to get a stick as well. :(

I love Dai Fukkatsu's OST as well. Dodonpachi Dai-ondo is probably the worst track on that, but it's so catchy. >.>
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 02:11:15 AM
Mushi Futari is Region-free, didn't you get the memo? Get a J360 later :P Do remember that shmups tend to get ridiculously expensive fast, so I'd make Mushi Futari your priority if you want it bad enough.

I still want to get my hands on a J360 as well sometime, but maybe when they become less stupidly expensive. Christmas is coming though, and my mom has been bugging me for ideas, and she's imported stuff for me before, so maybe...

But I'm getting the game that would have had me buying a J360 if it wasn't region-free. That's how bad I want this. :3

As for DDP Daifukkatsu's soundtrack, I haven't listened to it yet. I wasn't really wowed with DOJ's soundtrack to be honest-- I mean there were some good tracks, but the rest were kinda meh to me.

Garegga's soundtrack is growing on me, after originally seeing it as one of Namiki's less interesting creations-- I guess my opinion was skewed because I hated the game at the time. Garegga and I are on fair terms now, though. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 07, 2009, 02:23:41 AM
I laminated that memo. :P But yeah, I want to get my hands on as many Cave ports as possible, and I'm thinking that the best way to set myself up for that is to get a J360. My other option is to wait and see how the Cave market expansion works out, but that's a bit of a gamble, I think.

Dai Fukkatsu's soundtrack is really different from Dai Ou Jou's. It's more.. upbeat.

I watched a superplay of Garegga the other day, and yeah, that has a great soundtrack as well. Loved Ibara's too; is that the same composer?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 07, 2009, 02:25:25 AM
Garegga and Gradius V are my absolute favorite shmup soundtracks. Perfect Cherry Blossom is a very close third, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 02:31:44 AM
Perfect Cherry Blossom has been my favorite video game soundtrack overall for a very long time now. A very close second is Mushihimesama's soundtrack, and third place...hmm... probably the rest of Touhou en masse. :P

I just really have a thing for ZUN and Manabu Namiki's music. Think I might download Garegga's soundtrack as a bit of an official truce between me and the game. xD
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 02:51:18 AM
Oh right. I made a savestate at the end of stage 1. Would I be a horrible person if I just started from this savestate every time to preserve my patience? :[

And I think I figured out the stage 6 boss' last attack. From what I've seen, it's actually streamable to an extent.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 02:55:17 AM
Doing that would make any shmup purist's heart cringe, but if your only goal is to get to Hibachi with minimum effort I don't see what's wrong with it. :P


I'm listening to Garegga's soundtrack now, and I'm definitely enjoying it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 02:57:01 AM
Nah, this be my savestate for trying to 1cc. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I actually died in stage 1, and it's just making me wait 2 more minutes for the real game to start.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 02:59:08 AM
Oh, I misread it, I thought you said you made a savestate at the end of stage 6  :V

Yeah I guess it's fine, but once you do 1cc it I think you should just go for a true playthrough after that just for the hell of it :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 03:04:49 AM
Oh wow, just got to the stage 5 track of Garegga. It's wonderful, and it makes me want to try even harder to get that far just to hear the track. Namiki, I am not disappoint.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 07, 2009, 03:07:58 AM
Is that the Cloud stage? If so, that's a fantastic track. Probably my favorite from the game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 03:18:54 AM
Yep, that's the one.

I just have to figure out how to get that far. On a good day, I can make it to stage 4's boss, but that's where I lose all of the lives I have stocked up. I really need to get over my phobia of dying in Garegga, since it's a necessity to keeping the rank down.  :-\
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 03:25:45 AM
Hmm, I just went through another savestate run, though this time with much less abuse. After stage 3, I didn't use any savestates...and 1cc'd. Clearly this means stage 3 is the real obstacle. I blame this mostly on me suddenly being able to own the stage 6 boss and making a ton of those horrific dodges Cave loves forcing you to do to change directions while streaming.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 03:29:15 AM
Hmm. Stage 4 is my biggest obstacle when I play, but I can guarantee you've put more time into the game than I have in the past two years, and you're taking it seriously when I just play it casually from time to time :P

Stage 3 never really ever game me any trouble. Stage 4 is where I fall apart, and I only get to stage 5 once in a while. I don't like continuespamming, so I doubt I could even 2cc the game right now because I know so little about stage 5 and 6. xD

And what the hell-- after the Arcade version of Garegga's soundtrack finished, the Sega Saturn Arrange version started. It's unbearable in comparison. All of the melodies have been made so quiet that they seem nonexistent, and the background synth was enhanced, making it sound so... generic.  :-\
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 07, 2009, 03:41:09 AM
I probably could buy a 360 and Mushihime right now- 280 should be enough right? I honestly don't know what's stopping me from doing it. I mean, it's not like I celebrate Christmas or my birthday and my parents are the modern day equivalent of Reimu. Is it because I want hardware upgrades so I can get a build a PC that can run the PS2 emulator?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 03:47:45 AM
Not quite. Mushihimesama Futari alone will run you close to $100 as it is for the standard version, depending on what kind of shipping you get-- and getting the LE will be around $120. As for a 360, I'd wait for a price drop with your current funds, because I don't think even Xbox 360 Arcades are even under $190 yet, are they?

Also, seriously, don't bother with PS2 emulation. An actual J-PS2 will cost you much, much less than the necessary upgrades needed to get a PS2 emulator to run well. My computer's not even 2 years old yet and it can't emulate it well-- graphically it was beautiful, but I couldn't get the framerate over 25fps or so.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 07, 2009, 04:00:25 AM
Time to beg my uncles in San Francisco during Christmas time.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 07, 2009, 04:19:25 AM
I would upload an input file for Donut, despite me not planning ahead how to do the stages optimally, but..
1- I've lost my practice :p (died on stage 2, paid too much attention to the chain meter and got hit)
2- I've lost my practice too (I could chain the popcorn section after the stage 2 tank midboss consistently, but now, I miss it D:)
3- I've.. well, you know :D (tried to think of a route for stage 3, did a memorization mistake and the situation got out of control as there were too much bullets on the screen on the first section of the stage :p)
4- lost the remaining two ships at stage 3 (as I tried to do the bullet-cancelling trick, and the other, as I tried to do the point-blank trick on the boss :p); I would reset after I lost the Maximum bonus, but I continued anyways in order to show the big red carrier
5- last but not least.. when I checked the inp. file, it had... well.. desynched on the first stage :(   (the emulator was Wolfmameplus 0106)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 07, 2009, 09:04:11 PM
Ohhhh, that was so cheap! I got to the end of stage 4 in DonPachi where there are two enemies that give a powerup and a bomb, and as soon as I move up to grab them, I get ambushed by a stream of popcorn enemies. Bastards. >=[

At least my score gives me a low, but not low-est spot on the Shmups forum scoreboard.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 07, 2009, 11:38:30 PM
Because I suck. :(

Also it probably has something to do with me trying my best to score on the stage (since I hear you can do the second loop requirement for a chain right there). Remind me again how this asanine system works? Why sometimes you get nearly two seconds to continue the chain while others end instantly?

Oh, never mind, I'll figure this out eventually because I love this game so much <3 <3 <3

Was that sarcasm? Sorry- but I really suck when it comes to determining weather of not someone is serious over the internet.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 07, 2009, 11:56:36 PM
Oh, don't mind the all caps. There's a little tsundere who likes to troll me. <3

Anyways...I just made it to stage 6 again on one credit. I got about halfway through the stage before finally dying. You know what's annoying though? I didn't get the 20 million extend because I put my survival over my score in stage 3 (the reason why I even made it this far in the first place).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 12:23:03 AM
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8222/dodododododon.jpg)

O_O

What.

Even though I used the savestate to start at stage 2, this is a 1cc. O_O I managed to keep my maximum bombs long enough to get the 3 times multiplier, and had no problem getting the 20 million extend from there.

I...

...don't feel satisfied. At all. :( Maybe it's the fact that I didn't start at stage 1, maybe it's the fact that THE FUCKING COMMANDER IS STILL MOCKING ME, but either way, this doesn't make me feel like a 1cc should. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 08, 2009, 12:28:22 AM
(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8222/dodododododon.jpg)

O_O

What.

Even though I used the savestate to start at stage 2, this is a 1cc. O_O I managed to keep my maximum bombs long enough to get the 3 times multiplier, and had no problem getting the 20 million extend from there.

I...

...don't feel satisfied. At all. :( Maybe it's the fact that I didn't start at stage 1, maybe it's the fact that THE FUCKING COMMANDER IS STILL MOCKING ME, but either way, this doesn't make me feel like a 1cc should. :(

It's because the stage 6 boss is so unepic and not fun at all.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 12:48:42 AM
Yeah, that too. I want my Hibachiiiiiiii. D:

Anyway...heh? I immediately went back in for a run from stage 1 (I used a savestate but it's to skip the annoying unskippable disclaimer at the beginning :V), and after dying with full bombs in stage 3 and with multiple bombs in stage 5, I still make it all the way to the stage 6 boss. When did this get easier? o_O
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 08, 2009, 01:10:44 AM
Why did I just torture myself for the past 30 minutes trying to 1cc Dodonpachi again so I could get a screen shot of it and rub it into Matsuri's face? (He told me to get a SS of me winning) But rather than try to 1cc it, it was rather like trying to get past stage 4 without dying with bombs in stock- stupid mame and your dislike of keyboards. I no miss/bomb the first 2 stages, I get past the stage 3 boss with 1 bomb in stock and then I breakdown from there.

This is seriously what happens when you cannot play for a while (a few days I think, too much work) and you're constantly torturing yourself with angry thoughts- Assholes at school, my brother, etc. UGH!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 08, 2009, 01:12:21 AM
Donut: how fortunate that you have a savestate for stage 2, since you can use this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GoiQRAZ9Tw to practice the 270-hit chain with A-L (note how the player avoids damaging certain large enemies/buildings with laser so early, or more exactly, how he uses his shot -- not the laser -- in order to use certain enemies/buildings/cars at the right time, and how he anticipates the appearance of certain weak enemies in order to maintain the chain meter)

this means, there are sections where you need to use the normal shot and/or anticipate the appearance/placement of the enemies, and to preserve certain enemies until it's the right time to take them out. Don't underestimate your abilities, if there's something that the shmups.org's STG Tournament taught me, it's that overcoming what I previously thought to be difficult obstacles is possible (even within one week in certain games I've rarely/never ever touched), and the effort is satisfying. You don't have to do the whole chain, note how the player reaches 270 hits on the midboss.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 08, 2009, 01:18:02 AM
I think the only downside to starting from Stage 2 via save states is because you will need to know Stage 1 like the back of your hand for the second loop. It's probably not going to be incredibly difficult, but it still helps being able to anticipate where enemies will appear.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 01:22:57 AM
Pah, you don't seriously think I'm going to be attempting to 1cc the entire game, do you? I'll be surprised if I ever reach the second loop legitimately.

And thanks Shadowbringer, I'll watch that when I have time.

For now, I have to eat dinner and then pay attention to that doom project due tomorrow... ;^_^

EDIT: Wait, I watched it. Uhhhrgh....that looks very annoying. I don't understand how using the unfocused shot changes things.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 08, 2009, 02:01:00 AM
rub it into Matsuri's face

I only said to get a screenshot to be a jackass, 'cause that's how I am. It's not like you're impressing me or anything. I could probably 1cc DoDonPachi too if I felt like pouring the time into it. Instead, I'm focusing on Mushihimesama for now :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 08, 2009, 02:35:57 AM
the shot is used to preserve the enemies that are behind the targeted enemy, in order to not destroy them prematurely and use them to continue the chain (one example being the stationary cars at the left side of the screen after the tank midboss starts moving). Note that the larger enemies/buildings are preserved in order to be lasered later, since laser maintains the chain meter (at the bottom of it).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 08, 2009, 03:17:26 AM
I only said to get a screenshot to be a jackass, 'cause that's how I am. It's not like you're impressing me or anything. I could probably 1cc DoDonPachi too if I felt like pouring the time into it. Instead, I'm focusing on Mushihimesama for now :P

Augh.. you caught my own mistake before I did.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 03:30:15 AM
Actually, what I desire most is a savestate beginning on the second loop. I doubt this will work, but anyone have one for A-L? =D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 08, 2009, 03:42:21 AM
Just played DOJ for the first time in months. Broke my old high (yeah right) score and made it partway through stage 3. Not too bad for sucking at it and being rusty at the same time.

Getting Hyper Powerups is awesome. Nothing feels better than pulling off a 500-hit combo while picking up bees that are worth 1000 x hit count :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 08, 2009, 03:48:42 AM
Just played DOJ for the first time in months. Broke my old high (yeah right) score and made it partway through stage 3. Not too bad for sucking at it and being rusty at the same time.

Getting Hyper Powerups is awesome. Nothing feels better than pulling off a 500-hit combo while picking up bees that are worth 1000 x hit count :P

The Hyper powerup is awesome until it runs out and the game makes you wish that you never used it in the first place.  :P

Is it just me, or is it really hard to see the blue needle bullets used by the second boss? That thing just ruins my runs.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 08, 2009, 04:02:07 AM
Those catch me from time to time, but I don't think they're so bad. Now, in Death Label, fuck that, I'm bombing :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 08, 2009, 04:52:46 AM
Aaargh I had a brilliant run in Mushi stage 2, then I totally fell apart in stage 3. I really need to figure out the chaining in that stage. I can get both point extends with no problem now, it's getting the stage 3 extend while maintaining a 100,000+ counter that's the hard part.

I'd really like to break 100,000,000 so I have a place on the scoreboard at Shmups forum, too. It's all pretty hard with a PS2 controller though :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 08, 2009, 05:00:11 AM
Yeah I know what you mean. That controller is the only thing that's stopping me from putting any serious effort into the PS2 ports. :-\

Maybe I'll give the PS2 emulator a go this weekend, since I'm starting to get a craving for punishment DOJ. And Ibara, if it looks nice.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 08, 2009, 05:19:22 AM
HELLZ YEAH I managed to get a 300 chain in DDP stage 2(should've been more but I messed up the post-midboss part)!  Second loop here I come. 8)

Except oh wait I keep randomly trainwrecking all over the place in stage 4 and 5, what the hell.  Fucking one-frame bomb delay is fjdkslahepwhf;lkdsa
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 05:41:49 AM
Opposite of Azinth. Just 1cc'd from stage 1 to rub it in Matsuri's face (and a screenshot, but I just posted one and it looks pretty much the same), but no closer to second looping then I've ever been. That was a pretty awesome finish, the way I did the last third of stage 6 without any bombs. I'm not sure exactly how I managed to survive that, but it meant that I entered the stage 6 boss in the best possible condition: One life left and one bomb to take care of the pesky streaming attack that gives me so much trouble. After bombing there, I proceeded to survive the rest of the boss' onslaught, and even cleared about half the lifebar of the last attack before dying and resorting to bomb spam to defeat it. Still...my goal is incomplete. I have 1cc'd Dodonpachi, but I have yet to face the ultimate in awesomeness himself. Will I ever be able to second loop...?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 08, 2009, 05:45:04 AM
What's with all of the 'rubbing it in my face' all of a sudden? It's not like I'm impressed or anything. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 05:48:29 AM
What's with all of the 'rubbing it in my face' all of a sudden? It's not like I'm impressed or anything. :P

It's more to meet your challenges.

Yes...actually, you are JUST LIKE the commander (seriously, does he have a name or something? I know I'm not supposed to care about the story of Dodonpachi, but after all this work I god damn want a justification): Cold, cruel, slightly mocking, and in reality a criminal mastermind trying to destroy the entire human race for extremely vague reasons...

Would you be impressed if I 1cc'd the second loop then? :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 05:54:11 AM
You saw nothing.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 08, 2009, 05:57:15 AM
It's more to meet your challenges.

Yes...actually, you are JUST LIKE the commander (seriously, does he have a name or something? I know I'm not supposed to care about the story of Dodonpachi, but after all this work I god damn want a justification): Cold, cruel, slightly mocking, and in reality a criminal mastermind trying to destroy the entire human race for extremely vague reasons...

Would you be impressed if I 1cc'd the second loop then? :P

That's just how I am.

And yes, I will definitely be impressed if you can 1cc both loops. Go for it.

Tsk tsk, you think you can resist me by giving me the cold shoulder? I know I can get through to you...I just need to eliminate the concept of time zones! And I can do that! Because I'm a lunatic or something, and we have reality shattering powers.

But wait, I can use them to make you accept me!

/me


I have to sleep too, you know. =<

You saw nothing.

*smirk* Nice try.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 08, 2009, 06:06:28 AM
It's more to meet your challenges.

Yes...actually, you are JUST LIKE the commander (seriously, does he have a name or something? I know I'm not supposed to care about the story of Dodonpachi, but after all this work I god damn want a justification): Cold, cruel, slightly mocking, and in reality a criminal mastermind trying to destroy the entire human race for extremely vague reasons...

Would you be impressed if I 1cc'd the second loop then? :P

Google tells me that he's just called The Commander.  :V

All of the Cave games have a story, but nobody really gives a shit about them, even though I think some seem pretty neat (DonPachi had a crazy twist IIRC).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 08, 2009, 06:16:31 AM
The plot of Donpachi felt like they were just running through it as fast as possible. Really, the text scrolled so fast it was like they were doing it on purpose.

And I'm a sucker for at least an adequate story. :( I really want to know what the hell the plot of Daioujou and Daifukkatsu are.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on October 08, 2009, 07:43:37 AM
Donut: how fortunate that you have a savestate for stage 2, since you can use this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GoiQRAZ9Tw to practice the 270-hit chain with A-L (note how the player avoids damaging certain large enemies/buildings with laser so early, or more exactly, how he uses his shot -- not the laser -- in order to use certain enemies/buildings/cars at the right time, and how he anticipates the appearance of certain weak enemies in order to maintain the chain meter)

this means, there are sections where you need to use the normal shot and/or anticipate the appearance/placement of the enemies, and to preserve certain enemies until it's the right time to take them out. Don't underestimate your abilities, if there's something that the shmups.org's STG Tournament taught me, it's that overcoming what I previously thought to be difficult obstacles is possible (even within one week in certain games I've rarely/never ever touched), and the effort is satisfying. You don't have to do the whole chain, note how the player reaches 270 hits on the midboss.
This guy makes it look 3 times harder than it actually is, don't try to copy the strategy from this video.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 09, 2009, 04:53:35 AM
After my one class tomorrow, I'm totally free until Wednesday! I'm really gonna crack down on Mushihimesama. I just read up on scoring strategies and shot frequencies, so I think that if I practice enough, I can make it into the 9-digit score area. I'm kind of excited :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 09, 2009, 05:05:29 AM
o_O

I just opened Dodonpachi for the first time all day (as expected, it's getting boring now that I've 1cc'd. :P) and suddenly I could chain in stage 1. I got a 160-something chain by the time I reached the midboss. Shame I can't do the same for stage 2.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 09, 2009, 05:08:24 AM
Could it be that Donut is actually trying to play for score? Astounding!

You're playing home run derby now. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRhFYV4-pBQ)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 09, 2009, 06:05:29 AM
This savestate abuse run went amazing (surprising, huh? :V). I unlocked the second loop, but not through only dying twice (I died three times and let it go because I already succeeded in a requirement). I will never know how, but I got a 330 chain on stage 5 just by surviving a part I normally bomb. o_O Now with a savestate (with sound this time) at the beginning of the second loop I just need to suck it up and power forward to Hibachi! I just hope he doesn't have a requirement to TLB...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 09, 2009, 06:23:46 AM
Once you get to the second loop, you're facing Hibachi no matter how many credits you put into the machine. Although if you want to have a chance at beating Hibachi legitimately (i.e., not credit-feeding/save-stating your way through the fight), you really need to be prepared with as many lives and bombs as possible. Pretty much every Cave TLB takes you down to the wire, unless you aren't human, like HFD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_ah2ah2QaA).  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 09, 2009, 06:31:37 AM
So what about that one guy who perfected Hibachi? :V

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm83312

But that's a relief. If after all this I only faced the big bee I'd be really disappointed.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 09, 2009, 06:33:58 AM
So what about that one guy who perfected Hibachi? :V

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm83312

Youkai.

(Nice run though; haven't seen that one before.)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 09, 2009, 06:36:19 AM
This savestate abuse run went amazing (surprising, huh? :V). I unlocked the second loop, but not through only dying twice (I died three times and let it go because I already succeeded in a requirement). I will never know how, but I got a 330 chain on stage 5 just by surviving a part I normally bomb. o_O Now with a savestate (with sound this time) at the beginning of the second loop I just need to suck it up and power forward to Hibachi! I just hope he doesn't have a requirement to TLB...

Cool but now you have to loop it legitimately.  Look deep down inside your soul Donut, you know that you must. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 09, 2009, 06:41:43 AM
You think I would want to Azinth, you really would. But I don't feel.
























Not yet anyway. >_>
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 09, 2009, 06:44:12 AM
You know you want to.

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 09, 2009, 08:35:32 AM
Oooooh~ That was AMAZING! :D I knew Hibachi would be tough, but never did I imagine something of this calibur~ Even with the ludicrous amount of slowdown (I'm placing the blame on the emulator here, becuase I've seen videos with a lot less slowdown), I was simply no match~ It took about 11 continues to bring him down at last, of which at least 5 were used on that final attack. It's baffling how an attack actually looks MORE dense on a full screen than a tiny poor quality Youtube video~ I tried a second try and used five continues or so~ I think I'm in love. *gushes*

Oh, and I accidentally saved over my savestate entering the second loop. :V I made a copy of my savestate just before Donpachi (the epilogue FINALLY told me his name) goes melodramatic OH NO U DIN'T and put it in a different place though (it's bound to "h", for Hibachi. <3)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 09, 2009, 12:48:40 PM
Once you get to the second loop, you're facing Hibachi no matter how many credits you put into the machine. Although if you want to have a chance at beating Hibachi legitimately (i.e., not credit-feeding/save-stating your way through the fight), you really need to be prepared with as many lives and bombs as possible. Pretty much every Cave TLB takes you down to the wire, unless you aren't human, like HFD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_ah2ah2QaA).  :P

wow it's hard to believe this video is legitimate

some parts are just impossible, even more so than Mushihime's TLB o.o
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on October 09, 2009, 01:43:37 PM
wow it's hard to believe this video is legitimate

some parts are just impossible, even more so than Mushihime's TLB o.o
That's an official DVD Recorded from the actual hardware, how could it be a fake? Btw that's Black Label which is noticably easier than the original version.

DOJ's Hibachi is usually considered the hardest CAVE boss, if not the hardest shmup boss
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 09, 2009, 01:45:43 PM
The fun part is that he has almost no-missed it: one more second of survival would have filled his hyper gauge and canceled the bullets, providing him with what seems to be enough of a breathing space. Actually, that DVD is still the most impressive one I've seen to date. It's filled with awesomeness to the brim, including the nice intro clip.

LtC:
Black Label is easier when played for survival, but it has a higher rank cap. In HFD's case, it's essentially harder.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 09, 2009, 01:47:55 PM
Isn't the superplay DVD that comes with the DoDonPachi DOJ PS2 port a no-miss? I don't remember.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 09, 2009, 01:54:29 PM
Nope, 2-miss if I remember right. By the way, wasn't that perfect DDP Hibachi from a few posts ago from Takuro's TAS? Basically it was played by a very experienced player using slowdown, and I think it was himself who announced that.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 09, 2009, 02:04:07 PM
That's an official DVD Recorded from the actual hardware, how could it be a fake? Btw that's Black Label which is noticably easier than the original version.

DOJ's Hibachi is usually considered the hardest CAVE boss, if not the hardest shmup boss

I didn't call it fake. I said it's hard to believe.

That's a very fast attack he was dodging when he died and it impressed me. That's all
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 09, 2009, 07:01:57 PM
Tried Dodonpachi again.
19CC CLEAR, HELL YES

self note: stop dying with full bombs, this isn't touhou idiot
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 09, 2009, 07:59:30 PM
So I was playing Uwabami Breakers, and finally broke 3,000,000 points. I get to the final spell card, and my computer dies on me. So not only did I not get to save my score or replay, if I would have captured the last card (couldn't bomb, no more booze left in me), I would have broken Kaorin's 3.4mil high score, which is the highest score I've seen so far (unless there's a higher one somewhere that I haven't seen, anyone know?)

Argh...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 09, 2009, 08:42:55 PM
http://score.royalflare.net/alco/scorealco.html
Help yourself.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 09, 2009, 08:47:26 PM
Meh. Still, I was so close to beating the damn thing =<

EDIT: Watching the top replay, I noticed that I use almost the exact same methods as that guy, I just die a lot more. That, and I never considered using a bomb right as a spell card was starting to finish it faster without voiding the bonus. Interesting.

He also milked the stage 3 boss's last nonspell for all it was worth, too. No wonder his score was so crazy high.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 09, 2009, 10:16:17 PM
Say, does anyone know what to use to record gameplay on MAME? I just discovered that Fraps doesn't like MAME any more than it likes Anex86. :( Shame, I think I only used 6 or so continues on Hibachi this time.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LtC on October 10, 2009, 05:00:57 PM
Say, does anyone know what to use to record gameplay on MAME? I just discovered that Fraps doesn't like MAME any more than it likes Anex86. :( Shame, I think I only used 6 or so continues on Hibachi this time.
Hypercam
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 10, 2009, 05:56:03 PM
...

Dammit. And I was lucky enough to find the full version of Fraps. Why does Fraps not work when Hypercam does? That's just silly.

Also oh wow I took Hibachi out with only 4 continues this time. It seems to correct way to destroy his last attack is to take advantage of your death invincibility and use it to deal point blank damage for a second.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 10, 2009, 06:31:10 PM
Bleh, I came closer to getting a Mushihimesama Arrange mode 1CC. Got the final boss halfway down, but there would be no way I could have defeated the TLB after that. I need to stop making stupid mistakes.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 10, 2009, 06:52:24 PM
Oh Matsuri~ Guess which game my care-o-meter is down to nearly zero on now. ;) I TOLD you once I reached Hibachi my interest for the rest of the game would dwindle. I haven't even touched the second loop (I made another loop 2 savestate because I had another that was just before the stage 6 boss) since the first time. And my Touhou addiction has returned full force as well! \o/ So in conclusion, thanks for putting up with me and my complaints all. o/
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 10, 2009, 07:09:17 PM
You still love it. You aren't fooling anyone.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 11, 2009, 12:54:37 AM

[ ] convince Donut to play Varth and/or Thunder Dragon 2, which are pretty straightforward in their scoring systems, and are intense games, especially Varth (RFJ is intense when playing for score; when it's not being played for score -- I mean, after you enter the Special Medal mode and work towards quickshotting enemies/destroying them or parts of them at the same time, finding Micluses/Fairies, chaining medals, or doing everything in succession to gradually increase your temporary bonus multiplier, all of this while still playing for survival -- , it may lose some of its flavor).







[ ] kill me if Donut manages to legitimately 1cc Garegga and Batrider (the rank-controlled way, of course ;) ) and still insists in playing for survival only :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 11, 2009, 01:04:39 AM
[ ] kill me if Donut manages to legitimately 1cc Garegga and Batrider (the rank-controlled way, of course ;) ) and still insists in playing for survival only :(
Um, well, there really isn't more than one way either of them can be 1CC'd, because if you just do everything to aggravate the rank you'll just won't make it.

To be completely honest, though, there is a way to do extremely low-score playthrough on either (there are videos on YouTube) that makes it possible to no-miss (or close to that), but it's so much harder, more unforgiving, and ungratifying, it can be as well dismised altogether.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 01:08:11 AM
I gave Donut RFJ, though. Batrider too. I don't remember if I put Garegga in the .rar or not.

I just don't think we can get him to appreciate arcade shmups, even if he's a totally obvious tsundere for them :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on October 11, 2009, 01:08:51 AM
[ ] kill me if Donut manages to legitimately 1cc Garegga and Batrider (the rank-controlled way, of course ;) ) and still insists in playing for survival only :(
He's going to claim this one way or another, so :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
Why is it so hard to believe that I dislike playing games for score? :( The only game I've ever liked doing that on is Star Fox 64, because once you've played the game enough to beat it without dying every time there's not much else to keep the variety up. I score in a game only as far as I need to get every life I can get.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 01:15:15 AM
Why is it so hard to believe that I dislike playing games for score?

Because you're limiting your enjoyment of a game doing that, since you're not playing it to its full potential.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:16:32 AM
Then why do I hate myself so much more when I DO try to play for score? :V I figured out why I've done so horrible on MS extra lately: Because I've been trying to play for score. Once I stopped trying to do that I kick Alice's ass like usual.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LHCling on October 11, 2009, 01:20:37 AM
But I've seen you subconsciously play for score. Even if it's only minor scoring.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 01:21:34 AM
You do horrible playing for score because you're playing by a different set of rules, playing differently altogether, having to focus on more than just dodging bullets. When you take the easy way out and stop playing for score, of course it's a lot easier.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:23:42 AM
And that's because stuff like grazing is simply beyond me. I run into bullets when I try to lightly graze them.

And Baity, if you're talking about how I often go to the PoC, then lol @ u. It's not like I AVOID scoring. I simply don't go out of my way at all, and if scoring is detrimental to my survival, I'll forego it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LHCling on October 11, 2009, 01:25:51 AM
And Baity, if you're talking about how I often go to the PoC, then lol @ u. It's not like I AVOID scoring. I simply don't go out of my way at all, and if scoring is detrimental to my survival, I'll forego it.
Nope.

I've seen you score with no benefit to your survival in several of your replays.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 01:27:26 AM
But shmups are meant to be played for score, or else the developers wouldn't have bothered to program sometimes ridiculously-complex scoring systems into the game.  (Mushihimesama Maniac/ULTRA mode for example, where your score can be skyrocketed by using different button pressing frequencies on some enemies, which makes a multiplier counter rise, with a whole bunch of other elements to it)

Honestly, I think grazing is a retarded scoring element, and I see it as a lack of creativity on ZUN's part in all of the games aside from SA, where grazing is the whole point of the entire game. Pretty much every other shmup out there has nothing to do with grazing. and frankly grazing in Touhou isn't that hard at all what are you talking about
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:37:45 AM
Nope.

I've seen you score with no benefit to your survival in several of your replays.

Good for...you? I didn't know how I impulsively play was so important. :\ I might do it on the earlier stages because they're already easy...

And Matsuri, maybe that is why I don't LIKE arcade shmups, hmm? If I hate scoring and they're meant for scoring? HMM??? It's yet another thing that ZUN does differently. While score is a part, it's clear that reaching the end was his intention more than anything.

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LHCling on October 11, 2009, 01:52:32 AM
Good for...you? I didn't know how I impulsively play was so important. :\ I might do it on the earlier stages because they're already easy...
You seem to do it in all the stages from time to time... Though it's definitely harder for you to pick up things like this if you watch through your own replays, unless you're really observant.

Well, it's not like as if it's a bad thing or something...

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.
Graze-related (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil:_Gameplay#Star_Items). This is the major one.

EDIT: Hint; bugs / timing.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 01:57:05 AM
And Matsuri, maybe that is why I don't LIKE arcade shmups, hmm? If I hate scoring and they're meant for scoring? HMM??? It's yet another thing that ZUN does differently. While score is a part, it's clear that reaching the end was his intention more than anything.

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.

Retract thy claws, irate pastry.

ZUN's shmups are just as scoring-intensive as many arcade shmups, if not more so in some cases.

Actually, many of ZUN's shmups have high replayability because of some of the scoring systems. However, I never said all of them were good-- just as not all of them are bad. Perfect Cherry Blossom and UFO have really fun scoring systems, while EoSD's is incredibly...dull. Needless to say, I don't play EoSD much because aside from some of the boss fights, it's kind of boring.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 11, 2009, 02:04:13 AM
Honestly, I think grazing is a retarded scoring element, and I see it as a lack of creativity on ZUN's part in all of the games aside from SA, where grazing is the whole point of the entire game. Pretty much every other shmup out there has nothing to do with grazing.
Well, there are Radiant Silvergun, Raiden Fighters series, Psyvariar series (superb games, btw), Shikigami no Shiro series, DoDonPachi 2: Bee Storm, and a good number of doujins, among others. Not a selection I'd easily dismiss.

Besides, I don't consider grazing a bad element of scoring system. It's great to excercise risk and reward tradeoffs, and it brings really high tension to scoring at every part of a scoring run. It's really only bad when you're required to milk bosses for every bit of graze for a long time, or when you only get to graze anything easily dodgeable or while under an invulnerability effect most of the time. I think PCB and IN are by far best grazing implementations in a scoring system among Touhou games, and those are coincidentally less focused on graze milking compared to every other Windows Touhou game with a graze counter. See the pattern?

Graze-related (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Embodiment_of_Scarlet_Devil:_Gameplay#Star_Items). This is the major one.
For some reason I think something is wrong with the last statement there. I don't believe the game generates anywhere over 30000 bullets during the time of a single bomb explosion, while the score increases indicate exactly that. I think the value increases for each subsequent bullet canceled, or akin to Raizing medal progression (every medal on the screen is generated with the same value until you take one of them). That's why the bonuses aren't half as big when you're canceling only half the bullets the WR players do. It's not linear.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LHCling on October 11, 2009, 02:08:17 AM
For some reason I think something is wrong with the last statement there. I don't believe the game generates anywhere over 30000 bullets during the time of a single bomb explosion, while the score increases indicate exactly that. I think the value increases for each subsequent bullet canceled, or akin to Raizing medal progression (every medal on the screen is generated with the same value until you take one of them). That's why the bonuses aren't half as big when you're canceling only half the bullets the WR players do. It's not linear.
EDIT: Hint; bugs / timing.
There's a small window where the Star Items generated collected don't count as being created by the bomb (it may have something to do with the time it takes for the Star Items to travel I'm guessing though). You can see it when after they bomb, the last second or so of the Star Items that they pick up total up to millions.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 02:10:06 AM
Well, there are Radiant Silvergun, Raiden Fighters series, Psyvariar series (superb games, btw), Shikigami no Shiro series, DoDonPachi 2: Bee Storm, and a good number of doujins, among others. Not a selection I'd easily dismiss

And of all of those, I only really like Raiden Fighters Jet. I haven't played Psyvariar yet so I can't say much on that, and Shikigami no Shiro is... well, I have mixed feelings on it.

In my eyes, it's kind of weird that when the point of a game is dodging bullets, you should get as close as possible to them. If you ask me, there should be a bonus in danmaku shmups for dodging thick patterns and steering clear of bullets as much as possible. Instead it's 'oh, I can dodge all of this, but let's get as close as possible to make it look cool!' :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 11, 2009, 02:31:31 AM
But that's essentially rewarding you for doing the most mundane part (i.e., the one you would do for winning the game, anyway). DoDonPachi does pretty much that with its MAX multiplier, actually.

There's a small window where the Star Items generated collected don't count as being created by the bomb (it may have something to do with the time it takes for the Star Items to travel I'm guessing though). You can see it when after they bomb, the last second or so of the Star Items that they pick up total up to millions.
Yeah, that's the reason I suspect they increase in value exponentially, otherwise it's hard to explain such dramatic difference between the last two volleys of bullets converted into stars on certain volley-based attacks. Do you have any conclusive data on that, though? I'd like to establish that, because it's actually an important point source on every mode.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Observer on October 11, 2009, 02:40:05 AM
And of all of those, I only really like Raiden Fighters Jet. I haven't played Psyvariar yet so I can't say much on that, and Shikigami no Shiro is... well, I have mixed feelings on it.

In my eyes, it's kind of weird that when the point of a game is dodging bullets, you should get as close as possible to them. If you ask me, there should be a bonus in danmaku shmups for dodging thick patterns and steering clear of bullets as much as possible. Instead it's 'oh, I can dodge all of this, but let's get as close as possible to make it look cool!' :P

Psyvariar 2 is built around the grazing (buzzing) and you end up pretty much chaining bullets for the Level Up bonuses and more bonuses for keeping the buzzing.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L2SNX7k4v8

Leveluplevelupleveluplevelup

edit: Jeez, what's wrong with me today. I keep editing this post.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 02:42:10 AM
But that's essentially rewarding you for doing the most mundane part (i.e., the one you would do for winning the game, anyway). DoDonPachi does pretty much that with its MAX multiplier, actually.

I was kind of being sarcastic, thus the :P

I dunno, I just have never been a big fan of grazing-- not that it's difficult to do, but that it just seems kind of unnecessary.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 11, 2009, 02:43:10 AM
moozooh: I've seen the Batrider 1lc video, perhaps have seen the video proving that it's possible to 1lc Garegga as well (through the shmups.org forum), the point was, if Donut prefers to go through such a difficult path instead of playing the funny, greedy, O-rgasmatic way (this is a pun on the guy who did an "O" score in Batrider :p).. (okay, I've exaggerated a bit, you don't have to reach the letters in order to have fun with scoring :D) .. I feel there's no other way to introduce Donut on how fun scoring can be (even though these games demand some research and understanding). For my reason of choosing these two games, eheh.. you're given incentive to score in order to get extends and advance (so, I'm sort of removing the easier "survival-only" option :3 ), and in the other games (Varth/Thunder Dragon 2), scoring means surviving longer (except for some bonus scoring stuff, which aren't hard to get the hang of), while still being fun games (imho, Varth pressures me more in order to survive, than Dodonpachi pressures me to maintain the Max Bombs bonus)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 11, 2009, 02:52:53 AM
And Matsuri, maybe that is why I don't LIKE arcade shmups, hmm? If I hate scoring and they're meant for scoring? HMM??? It's yet another thing that ZUN does differently. While score is a part, it's clear that reaching the end was his intention more than anything.

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.

So basically... you claim to hate playing for score, yet you've never tried it or even learned how the scoring systems in any of the shmups you've played actually work?  You do realize that you complain about people doing the exact same thing when they say that HRtP is too hard right? :V


Anyway, this is now a 'Whine about Psikyo games because they completely assrape me every time I attempt playing them' thread.  I 11cc'd Dragon Blaze's first loop today.  It was painful. :'(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: LHCling on October 11, 2009, 02:54:35 AM
Do you have any conclusive data on that, though? I'd like to establish that, because it's actually an important point source on every mode.
(http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/12/80/32/92/th/scorin10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=292&u=12803292)
That should prove it. A Bomb was launched and Star items were being created from the bullets, each worth 100 Points. But after about 2.4 seconds the Star Items that were collected were worth 33,830 each (which is 500 + 10*[Graze=9999]/3).

(ReimuB)

That's the most conclusive I can get it with just one screenshot. I could upload multiple screenshots displaying the change between the Star Item Values though, if that's needed.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 04:39:25 AM
If I tried scoring for real would you guys just shut up? :< I find stuff like scoring to be unfun.

Also, I demand an explanation for this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXpQJkUj9-w&feature=related

What, who, why, how, what? Why the heck are there mecha-lolis in this game, who the heck IS that, why is there an image song for a SHOOTING GAME, how the heck did they make a song for a game like this, and...WHAT?














BTW, you said I've never tried scoring? That's a lie. I happen to have played a game recently where to access the second half of the game you need to be GODLY good at survival or score to a competent extent. I found little entertainment value in trying to score here.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 11, 2009, 05:12:32 AM
Also, I demand an explanation for this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXpQJkUj9-w&feature=related

What, who, why, how, what? Why the heck are there mecha-lolis in this game, who the heck IS that,

The first stage boss (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-ytTCzE3I&fmt=18). In Dai Ou Jou, you got to choose one out of three dolls to pilot your ship; in Dai Fukkatsu, among some new additions, they appear as bosses. Though the character in that picture isn't one of the original three (http://www.peacefuldeath.net/ddp/ddp3/) (maybe NSFW). Dai Fukkatsu just screams parallel universe, but I don't really know what's going on. :V Also, upon satisfying certain conditions in each stage can trigger upgraded versions of DoDonPachi bosses to appear as mid-bosses.

Quote
why is there an image song for a SHOOTING GAME, how the heck did they make a song for a game like this, and...WHAT?

That song was played in the background during the game's first unveiling at the AOU Amusement Expo of 2008 (a convention for upcoming arcade games). I remember hearing it among the background noise in a cam video of someone from Shmups Forum playing the game there.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 05:22:26 AM
That still doesn't answer my last question. :P The question of how one of the archetypical "pilot in a ship" series suddenly turned into fighting mecha-lolis (yet still ends with Donpachi sicking Hibachi on you even though I thought he was dead), with an image song of the STAGE 1 BOSS singing "DON DON DON DON" for 3 minutes. Is Cave having a severe target audience change or what?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: An Odd Sea Slug on October 11, 2009, 05:28:49 AM
(Paraphrasing due to a bad memory)

Daifukkatsu takes place 100(?) years after Dai Ou Jou. Once the enemies in Dai Ou Jou were defeated, they were sealed in the moon. Naturally, they broke out and decided to run wild again sometime later. Everything in Daifukkatsu (including the player ships) are 'hyper-evolved' versions of their Dai Ou Jou selves.

Now here's to one day being able to play DoDonPachi without dying every ten seconds. :p
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 11, 2009, 05:41:31 AM
Oh I doubt that's actually the first boss herself singing. :D That's just a promotional poster used for the video backdrop.

Cave has always had a good mix of character-based and ship/mecha-based shmups in their catalog. It's possible that it was just a plain marketing move, but it's also possible that they simply felt the game needed a different artistic approach than its four predecessors. I wonder if there is an interview with Cave or something that addresses the question.


Hibachi in Dai Fukkatsu turns into a loli too. ;)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 07:09:55 AM
Really? o_O I demand pics. I've seen videos of that fight a number of times and don't see no lolibachi.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 11, 2009, 07:40:38 AM
Hibachi transforms for its (her?) final attack. It's hard to tell what exactly it transforms into, but it's some kind of figure. I'd say that, going along with the game's trend, it's safe to assume that if it's not a loli, then it's at least an older-looking female. Something like that. >.>
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 05:45:47 PM
Ah ha, that? It just looks like Hibachi morphs into a bee humanoid, not a loli.

BTW, what's even going ON in Daifukkatsu Hibachi's last attack? No matter what video I look at, I can't pick apart the individual bullets.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 06:16:35 PM
Was having a fantastic play of ESPGaluda, went into stage 4 with 5 lives. Lost one life mid-stage, and lost all of the other 4 on the stage 4 boss. Ugh ;;
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 12, 2009, 01:52:17 AM
Finally managed to get the extend in stage 3 of Mushihimesama (Maniac), and got to stage 4. Unfortunately, the run itself was complete shit. Argh, today is not a good day for shmups  >:(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 12, 2009, 02:25:33 AM
BTW, what's even going ON in Daifukkatsu Hibachi's last attack? No matter what video I look at, I can't pick apart the individual bullets.
Watch this video (http://beatthegame.net/misc/DoDonPachi%20Daifukkatsu%201.5%20-%20A-P%20-%20Hibachi%20crazy%20dodge%20-%20Dame%20K.K.mp4). It shows how to deal with it without abusing invulnerability. The attack itself is a slower version of Hibachi's last attack in DDP plus two additional waves of blue bullet spam a-la Ikaruga's Tageri (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vff1nftEKIQ#t=2m45s), and a layer of lasers.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 12, 2009, 02:40:34 AM
I think blue bullets are generated by repelling the laser array, as a kind of counter attack. Some of Hibachi's other patterns also have this effect. I think it's actually a pretty evil thing for Cave to do, since the game is forcing you to make it harder on yourself by attacking.  Like from the Saw movies, or something. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Heartbeam on October 12, 2009, 10:40:22 PM
Whine about Psikyo games because they completely assrape me every time I attempt playing them' thread.

Play Gunbird II and let me know how the 1-6 boss battle turns out.

Hardly anything to contribute but I went for a pacifist run of Perfect Cherry Blossom's stage two.  The beginning of the stage with the constant firing of aimed green shots on top of everything else reminded me of something I'd see in a Mushihime-sama gameplay video.  Nervous to see how I'll stand up to the average shmup player once I get a hold of the game.  Hopefully the handling will be fine because one time I tried the Xbox controller for Touhou, and it was horrible.  I'm pretty sure I remember fiddling with the sensitivity, but I'll have to take another look.  Only thing is the console doesn't belong to me and isn't here right now.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 12, 2009, 10:47:32 PM
Ooh, you're gonna start playing Mushi too, Heartbeam? It really is a wonderful game.

Oh, and Gunbird 2 is one of my favorite shmups, despite sucking at it xD
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 12:46:21 AM
Decided to play a round of Mushi Original to take a break from Maniac mode, almost got to stage 4. It's not so bad, just real fucking fast :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 13, 2009, 03:26:47 AM
Original is too fast isn't it? o_o

my favourite mode is Arrange... I've reached the TLB a few times, just never managed to beat it... =/
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 03:28:09 AM
Original is too fast isn't it? o_o

my favourite mode is Arrange... I've reached the TLB a few times, just never managed to beat it... =/

It's not so bad, just real fucking fast :P


Arrange is fun, but I suck at it. I made it to the stage 5 boss once. Maniac mode is where my love is at.

However, I don't think the Arrange mode version of the TLB looks that hard if you can memorize the patterns and where to bomb to clear the bullets so you can survive. Also, if my eyes don't deceive me, the Arrange TLB doesn't have that bitch of a counterattack while you're invulnerable, so you can keep firing away at all times. The final pattern simultaneously looks easier and harder than the Ultra mode version's final, because there are more gaps to move into, along with the lack of a counterattack, but the health seems to be a lot higher in comparison to the Ultra mode version's.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 13, 2009, 04:34:34 AM
the problem is arriving there with enough lives to survive =P

the best i've managed was reach it with 2 lives... not enough to beat it =(

Arrange is the same as Maniac but with smaller hitbox and auto-bomb....
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 13, 2009, 04:49:03 AM
Play Gunbird II and let me know how the 1-6 boss battle turns out.

Why I actually have.  In fact, it was one of the first roms I got when I finally figured out how to use MAME (which might have been due to the influence of this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YSH95x7O4) >.>)  The best I've done with one credit is get to 1-5 and score 400k or so, so I'm not that great, but I still like it quite a lot.  I probably won't get that much farther for a while anyway, since the stage 5/6 bosses > me.

Also Dragon Blaze is still being BS. >:(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 04:51:08 AM
(which might have been due to the influence of this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YSH95x7O4) >.>)

Rob/xoxak is a god.  ;)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 13, 2009, 04:53:44 AM
Rob/xoxak is a god.  ;)

Rob is my hero.


Although it kind of sucks that he trimmed out some of the videos from his channel. There used to be more.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 04:57:44 AM
Rob is my hero.


Although it kind of sucks that he trimmed out some of the videos from his channel. There used to be more.

Oh? What did he take out?

At the very least, he left his best one up. His Cave TRIBUTE video has me laughing so -- Go play Mars Matrix-- hard.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 13, 2009, 05:13:02 AM
Yeah, he left the PRO reviews up.

There were more videos, though. They weren't really reviews; just him making fun of people. :P I can't remember them all, but one of them involved him providing commentary over some guy doing a Let's Play of Giga Wing and credit-feeding like crazy through it. In another video, he provided commentary over some Gamespot reviewer doing a video review of Ikaruga. I thought they were pretty funny, so it's a shame that he took them down, despite that they were inherently defamatory.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 05:17:17 AM
Oh yeah, I remember those.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 13, 2009, 05:24:44 AM
The Ikaruga commentary was actually re-uploaded by some guy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbMXq17GcGs)  Possibly without xoxak's permission.

Oh, and my favorite video of his is probably either the Ikaruga or Bangai-O reviews.  You just gotta love the Burly Blue BigBots. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 05:44:11 AM
Ooh, look what I found (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXBRLljs4IA&NR=1). Doesn't sound as much like Rob usually does though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 13, 2009, 05:51:45 AM
Just defeated Hibachi with only 3 continues. Sorry Matsuri, but it really does look like this is the end of my Cave affair. I'm back full force into Touhou. :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 06:15:59 AM
Pffft, CAVE affair. You barely played any of them aside from DoDonPachi.


I'm kind of burnt out on Touhou right now. I'm full-force into Mushihimesama and that's how it's going to be until I get sick of Mushi Futari.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 13, 2009, 06:25:05 AM
I'm in the middle of an incredible urge to try to get into Battle Garegga. (Fucking Cloud stage music) I even read through the whole ST by Icarus the other night, too.

But I have too much work to play games.  :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 06:30:35 AM
I don't think I'll ever take Garegga that seriously. Its scoring/survival system just has too much bullshit in it for me to enjoy. I'll still play the game casually and enjoy it, though, and the Cloud stage music is just wonderful.

I played (read: continue-spammed) my way through Guwange today. I'm not sure how anyone actually gets a 1CC on that one. It's crazy.


I have the weirdest urge to play Twinkle Star Sprites right now.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 13, 2009, 06:57:31 AM
Guwange, for me, is one of those games that I'd rather watch than play. I think the audio-visual design of it is just great, but the damn familiar control just messes with me way too much to be fun.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 13, 2009, 07:24:15 AM
I know what you mean. I prefer ESPGaluda when it comes to controlling how fast bullets go and how I cancel them out. But I will say the concept is pretty damn cool, and the art of the game is beautiful and terrifying at the same time (that demon baby final boss is a horrific sight, and the bucket lolis are nothing like Kisume, let me tell you~)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 14, 2009, 05:13:54 AM
Awwwww man.  I just played Shuusou Gyoku's extra stage again after not touching it for a long while.  I'd forgotten just how awesome it was. <3  I lost due to a bunch of retarded rustiness-related deaths (I managed to run into Marisa while trying to shotgun her), but I did some cool stuff nonetheless.  I captured her orange-bullet spam twice (it was when only 1-2 suns were alive though, so that doesn't mean that much), and beat Reimu's second phase with just one bomb for safety.  It seemed really easy this time around... I don't know if I just got lucky or if I might actually be showing some improvement after all.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 14, 2009, 05:30:56 AM
Stupid Shuusou Gyoku. I actually want to record myself beating extra, but the music is messed up and tinny. Does ANYONE know how to fix this?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 14, 2009, 05:47:21 AM
Stupid Shuusou Gyoku. I actually want to record myself beating extra, but the music is messed up and tinny. Does ANYONE know how to fix this?

Is the quality the same as the sound in SP's video on youtube?  Because that's what my sound is like.  I'm not sure what your problem is though, it could just be that whatever MIDI program your computer uses doesn't match with the game's music as well.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 14, 2009, 06:58:06 AM
No, the sound quality is worse than that. It ran fine on my old computer.

/me checks SG again

Maybe the fact that 10 out of the 16 sound channels aren't playing has something to do with it? :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: R1CK_D0M on October 14, 2009, 09:18:42 AM
I'm so happy today because I just found out that Mushihime-sama Futari 1.5 is region free for the 360. I'm preordering it no matter how much that thing costs.

In other news Hitogata Happa recently stopped working on my laptop T_T
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 14, 2009, 11:33:11 PM
レコちゃん、いくよ?

いくよ、パルム~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsgBEKlIGck)

I am loving this more and more.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 14, 2009, 11:48:03 PM
That's awesome. It looks like a cross between Hitogata Happa and Giga Wing.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 14, 2009, 11:51:48 PM
What's Hitogata Happa? That's an unfamiliar name to me =<

But yeah, when I watched this I was all 'oh hey, it's CAVE+Takumi' :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 15, 2009, 12:04:14 AM
Hitogata Happa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNhekUJh8vU&fmt=18) is a shmup by one of my favorite doujin developers--Platine Dispositif. It has the same bullet slow-down field that I saw in the Futari arrange video.

The TLB in that video is ridiculous. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 12:13:11 AM
So I downloaded your precious Winamp because for some reason Windows Media Player doesn't play most superplays on that superplay website.

So...when does this thing view videos again? :V All I hear is jilty audio.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 15, 2009, 12:26:00 AM
Wuh? Winamp has never been a good video player. If you want a decent codec-pack-free video playback solution, go with VLC or SMPlayer.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 15, 2009, 12:27:51 AM
nintendonut: I would recommend VLC Media Player, it's what I've been using to watch superplay videos during this year's STG Tournament
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 01:12:06 AM
Thanks for that Shadowbringer. I finally have a media player that can view my compressed video files. :D

Problem though...now when I try to watch these superplays, instead of WMP opening and playing it as an audio file, nothing happens at all when I try to download them. :( Is there a way to actually DOWNLOAD the files instead of just watching them online? Because I think that may actually work.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 15, 2009, 01:12:14 AM
My strong recommendation goes for CCCP and Media Player Classic. I never liked VLC much.


Thanks for that Shadowbringer. I finally have a media player that can view my compressed video files. :D

Problem though...now when I try to watch these superplays, instead of WMP opening and playing it as an audio file, nothing happens at all when I try to download them. :( Is there a way to actually DOWNLOAD the files instead of just watching them online? Because I think that may actually work.

If you're talking about stuff from Super-play.co.uk, right-click the download icon and select 'save link as'. It'll save as a video file.

Hitogata Happa (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNhekUJh8vU&fmt=18) is a shmup by one of my favorite doujin developers--Platine Dispositif. It has the same bullet slow-down field that I saw in the Futari arrange video.

The TLB in that video is ridiculous. :V

Looks like fun, I'll have to check it out sometime. I also watched a bit of Gundemonium too, apparently by the same developers, in the related videos. Looks cool too. :D

As far as doujin developers go, not many can surpass x.x's greatness. Blue Wish Resurrection is fantastic, and Eden's Aegis will be pretty good once it's finished. If it ever gets finished. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 01:29:45 AM
Yay, thanks~ Now I can finally see what Daioujou's all about.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 15, 2009, 01:41:47 AM
Looks like fun, I'll have to check it out sometime. I also watched a bit of Gundemonium too, apparently by the same developers, in the related videos. Looks cool too. :D

As far as doujin developers go, not many can surpass x.x's greatness. Blue Wish Resurrection is fantastic, and Eden's Aegis will be pretty good once it's finished. If it ever gets finished. :P

Yeah, among my favorite doujin developers, x.x is up there.

Gundemonium, Gundeadligne, and Hitogata Happa are part of a trilogy of shooters by Platine Dispositif, connected by story. They're also the only "pure" shooters that the sole developer (Murasame) of this circle has made: his games span a wide range of genres (platformer, Zelda, Kiki KaiKai, Metroidvania, etc), and almost always contain STG-elements.

He's also a good friend of ZUN's.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sodium on October 15, 2009, 01:59:26 AM
Donut, just try Samidare. It's not like Seihou, really.

I should actually try to 1cc BWR, but I keep exiting by pressing esc, which pisses me off. =V It also happens for anything I try to play on MAME, and the StellaVanity Demo(good thing stage 1 on Normal is easy.)

And on the subject of Higato Hippa, FAV had some videos of it before she closed her Youtube account, I believe. I think they were her last too.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 15, 2009, 03:50:03 AM
Isn't it one of those shield games? I don't like those that much. :|

I just watched ISO's superplay of Dodonpachi Daioujou.

...Ah ha ha, you people find crap like this FUN? That was just plain brutality. I'd watch a superplay of Diefuckyou Daifukkatsu, but the only superplays on there were for 1.0, which IIRC is the one with at least one rather crippling safespot. And it said that Daifukkatsu is supposed to be the last in the series. D= SAY IT'S NOT SO WE NEED MORE HIBACHI.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 15, 2009, 04:13:41 AM
I didn't know it was supposed to be the last in the series. 'Daifukkatsu' translates to 'great revival' or 'great resurrection', anyway =<

And yes, we do find that fun.

Either way, I heard that Daifukkatsu is easier than DOJ is overall, so I look forward to playing it someday.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 15, 2009, 04:18:43 AM
It's fun, and Dai Ou Jou is a fucking masterpiece.

I didn't know it was supposed to be the last in the series. 'Daifukkatsu' translates to 'great revival' or 'great resurrection', anyway =<

And yes, we do find that fun.

I believe Ikeda wanted Dai Ou Jou to be the last one ("Peaceful Death"), but Cave forced him to make Dai Fukkatsu ("Great Revival"). I don't think Ikeda wants to do another one, but who knows what the future holds. The names make sense in that light.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 15, 2009, 04:26:19 AM
It doesn't bother me all that much. As long as Ikeda's making games, I'm happy.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: R1CK_D0M on October 15, 2009, 09:04:34 AM
has anyone tried edelweiss' Ether Vapor? It's really fun, but I can't hack it unless if I use a 360 controller or something.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 15, 2009, 02:43:11 PM
Okay so I've got a tech-related question.  I don't know how easy it is to fix or if it's even fixable at all, but I might as well ask.

I've tried removing the input lag from Banshiryuu c67 using LtC's method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuqbGl3Cpzo) (look at the comments).  When I do everything, the controls are FLAWLESS, but... when I put in into windowed mode, the window stays frozen in the center of the screen and doesn't let me move it with the cursor.  Which means that when it's in 640x480 resolution there's this 3/4-inch blindspot right at the bottom of the screen. -_-  I was just wondering if someone knew a way to move the window or a program that would allow me to do so.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Emarrel on October 16, 2009, 04:31:19 AM
So, should I blow ONE HUNDRED AND TEN DOLLARS on Mushihimesama Futari Limited Edition or just get the Standard Edition? I'm a complete whore for limited edition boxes... so it's rather tempting to just throw another $40 over the standard at it.

?67, not including postage and import charges. I haven't spent that much on a game ever. The most I've spent on a game in recent memory was ?38 for a mint Limited Edition copy of Ico.


But enough of that, anyone else played Psyvariar? Hugging bullets so you can power up your shot makes the game pretty damn fun. Though is feels a little easy most of the time even on the hardest mode.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 16, 2009, 04:45:51 AM
Come on, go all-out and get the LE, you know you want to~ come on a two-disc soundtrack of Manabu Namiki music HOW COULD YOU SAY NO

And nope, I haven't played Psyvariar. As I've said before, I'm not crazy about bullet grazing and stuff, but I'll still give it a try if I get the chance.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on October 16, 2009, 09:09:53 AM
But enough of that, anyone else played Psyvariar? Hugging bullets so you can power up your shot makes the game pretty damn fun. Though is feels a little easy most of the time even on the hardest mode.

Played it a bit, though that was a few years ago. Don't you get a short moment of invincibility whenever you power-up by grazing? From what I remember from videos, decent players can keep themselves in a state of semi-permanent invincibility by practically sitting on top of bosses.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Garlyle on October 16, 2009, 01:08:29 PM
But enough of that, anyone else played Psyvariar? Hugging bullets so you can power up your shot makes the game pretty damn fun. Though is feels a little easy most of the time even on the hardest mode.

If you like that, try playing Shikigami No Shiro 2/3 sometime (Castle of Shikigami in english) - your shot type turns more powerful while grazing, and it raises item point value, too.  I'm a sucker for graze mechanics though XD

Actually, I really recommend Shikigami 3's Wii port, of all things, for english players.  The controls work pretty well (Wiimote's got a good d-pad afterall), and the added Dynamic Swap or whateverthefuck lets you use two characters that switch with a button press - giving your four shot types during game (One normal shot and special shot per character, plus two bomb types... four, if you count the ability to sacrifice a bomb to enter a powered up mode), and lets you view the 2-player scenarios solo.  And given that there's ten different characters (With two types each), that's a lot of options.

Plus, it's Shikigami - the dialogue is sorta ridiculous and laughable - deliberately or not - without being as ridiculously crap as 2's was - and there's a few surprises that await by playing with lots of teams.  Plus, SnS3 opts for a more colorful, varied set of bullet patterns and designs than a lot of shmups seem to.

...The failing, sadly, is that it doesn't have too noticable of difficulty changes - Extreme just adds more bullets on enemy death, and EX.II and EX.III just make those much faster.  And I'm not sure what the options' difficulty levels change, other than extra life/bomb frequency and boss life.

But what is neat is that, after beating the game, you can modify bullet size and speed and a couple other things manually, to tailor the game more to your liking.


...Oh, and there's a Yukari in it, which makes me lol, because they're not totally different...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 16, 2009, 01:24:32 PM
If you like that, try playing Shikigami No Shiro 2/3 sometime (Castle of Shikigami in english) - your shot type turns more powerful while grazing, and it raises item point value, too.  I'm a sucker for graze mechanics though XD

Actually, I really recommend Shikigami 3's Wii port, of all things, for english players.  The controls work pretty well (Wiimote's got a good d-pad afterall), and the added Dynamic Swap or whateverthefuck lets you use two characters that switch with a button press - giving your four shot types during game (One normal shot and special shot per character, plus two bomb types... four, if you count the ability to sacrifice a bomb to enter a powered up mode), and lets you view the 2-player scenarios solo.  And given that there's ten different characters (With two types each), that's a lot of options.

Plus, it's Shikigami - the dialogue is sorta ridiculous and laughable - deliberately or not - without being as ridiculously crap as 2's was - and there's a few surprises that await by playing with lots of teams.  Plus, SnS3 opts for a more colorful, varied set of bullet patterns and designs than a lot of shmups seem to.

...The failing, sadly, is that it doesn't have too noticable of difficulty changes - Extreme just adds more bullets on enemy death, and EX.II and EX.III just make those much faster.  And I'm not sure what the options' difficulty levels change, other than extra life/bomb frequency and boss life.

But what is neat is that, after beating the game, you can modify bullet size and speed and a couple other things manually, to tailor the game more to your liking.


...Oh, and there's a Yukari in it, which makes me lol, because they're not totally different...

Playing as Roger and Munchausen is a huge redeeming factor to that game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 17, 2009, 12:04:14 AM
I'm watching a Mushihimesama superplay. All I can say is that it is the best Cave game I've seen so far because the stage 4 boss is a water skeeter. I LOVE those things. Also I'm disappointed because there ARE no ultra 1ccs of Mushihimesama Futari on that website. I KNOW people have 1cc'd the game, are they just too embarrassed because they have to worry more about surviving than score or something? I'm ignoring the Black Label run because I think the final boss change is lame (I can only find ONE video of the original TLB anywhere). Really, is Larsa supposed to be easier on Black Label? :|

On a random note, if the commentary guy in Donpachi is Japanese I won't believe it. If it weren't for the fact that it's in the Japanese version too I'd think that it was an English dub.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 17, 2009, 12:28:32 AM
There are official DVDs for both Mushi and Mushi Futari. For the latter you might want to check Mininova, but that would be piracy. :V

The main reasons there are so few videos out there is that one would have to:

1) have the actual board;
2) have recording equipment handy;
3) actually clear the game.

There are only a handful of people who satisfy all these conditions, and some of them are accomplished superplayers who get the profit off the superplay DVDs. Besides, homemade superplay torrent trackers are shut down very quickly for whatever reasons. Hence the low output.

And yes, Futari Black Label is easier than 1.5. There is a video (http://beatthegame.net/misc/Mushihimesama%20Futari%20BL%20-%20God%20-%20Palm%20st5%20boss%20no-miss%20no-bomb.mp4) of Larsa no-miss/no-bomb on God mode, and it's crazy well played.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 01:21:38 AM
There are official DVDs for both Mushi and Mushi Futari. For the latter you might want to check Mininova, but that would be piracy. :V

The main reasons there are so few videos out there is that one would have to:

1) have the actual board;
2) have recording equipment handy;
3) actually clear the game.

There are only a handful of people who satisfy all these conditions, and some of them are accomplished superplayers who get the profit off the superplay DVDs. Besides, homemade superplay torrent trackers are shut down very quickly for whatever reasons. Hence the low output.

And yes, Futari Black Label is easier than 1.5. There is a video (http://beatthegame.net/misc/Mushihimesama%20Futari%20BL%20-%20God%20-%20Palm%20st5%20boss%20no-miss%20no-bomb.mp4) of Larsa no-miss/no-bomb on God mode, and it's crazy well played.

You know, I always wondered why that video didn't have the TLB fight in there. Isn't the requirement to face Spiritual Larsa to clear God mode without dying?

pssst, donut, try to find a download for Mushihimesama: The Secret Lover. There's an Ultra Mode 1CC in there.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 17, 2009, 01:24:01 AM
You've answered your own question, just look at his life count.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 02:07:49 AM
Why didn't I notice that before =<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 17, 2009, 02:09:12 AM
The fact that my computer hates torrents makes the prospect of that download unlikely Matsuri. :

Also ye gods compared to that one video I've seen the slowdown during Larsa was ridiculous. Or is it actually slower and God Mode just plain meant to be easier than Ultra?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 02:18:32 AM
The fact that my computer hates torrents makes the prospect of that download unlikely Matsuri. :


I'd put it on megaupload for you if it wasn't 644MB. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 17, 2009, 02:25:37 AM
God mode is considerably easier.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 17, 2009, 02:34:26 AM
What's the most popular version of Futari, anyway? Like, if you were to walk into an arcade in Japan, which version would you most likely see?

Actually, I'm curious to know the answer to this question with Ibara and Ibara Kuro: Black Label as well.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 02:37:09 AM
Well, ver 1.5 is the most common, isn't it? I'd say that, perhaps.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 17, 2009, 02:39:37 AM
All Black Labels had a smaller print run, iirc, so they theoretically should be sparser. Probably not the case with DOJ, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 17, 2009, 02:41:10 AM
Ah, I see. Yeah, maybe not with DOJ; I remember someone on Shmups Forum stating that pretty much no one played White Label anymore. Figured that would have applied to the other games as well.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 02:49:39 AM
Aren't there only 150 copies of Mushi Futari Black Label out there?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 17, 2009, 02:51:42 AM
Ah, I see. Yeah, maybe not with DOJ; I remember someone on Shmups Forum stating that pretty much no one played White Label anymore. Figured that would have applied to the other games as well.
It does help DOJ's case that Black Label was just an improvement over the original (in every respect so), while Ibara's and Futari's BLs turned out to be considerably different, with different scoring systems, gameplay mechanics, and so on. Ibara Kuro is usually considered a completely different game, actually.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 17, 2009, 03:25:11 AM
Well I guess no one had any solution to my little dilemma. :P  Not that I was really expecting anything though, it's not exactly a common problem.

But it's okay because, as it turns out, the blindspot hardly effects my play at all except for two attacks (and one of them is an instadoublebomb regardless), since I pretty much always look above my character anyway.  I just 1cced BSR-c67's stage 5 lunatic in practice mode, or to be more exact, 2deaths/5bombs, since the stage doesn't give you extends.  Do realize that when I first started playing this game I couldn't even 3cc the stage with max lives, so this is an amazing improvement.  I still plan on eventually 1ccing lunatic, even if I've still got a long way to go on that.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 04:09:04 AM
I just got done whipping up a Japanese account for when Mushi Futari comes out, so I can get the DLC. I just wish I knew how much the Black Label DLC is gonna cost so I can order the points ahead of time. I guess I could buy more than I need so I can buy some random themes and stuff just for fun, but the BL DLC is what I really want. =O

I did download the Trailer/Preview for it, though. It looks so good, unlike the somewhat blurry PS2 port of Mushihimesama. I am very, very pleased.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 17, 2009, 04:16:46 AM
No one's offered a solution for my SG sound dilemma either. If it were fixed I would, you know...actually open the game to listen to some of the music. :(

Also that superplay of Donpachi was painful to watch. For some reason, watching Donpachi just makes me feel suicidal...like, it's as hard as any Cave game, but it's so BORING about it. Plus the second loop is just like SoEW lunatic in that it's the exact same freaking thing except enemies shoot bullets when they die.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 17, 2009, 04:31:26 AM
If you want to see a disco-themed shmup by Cave, watch a Dangun Feveron superplay (though not the one with the Uo Poko ship, since it has an annoying sound effect). I think the announcer is almost as epic as the one in DonPachi. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 17, 2009, 07:17:15 AM
NOBODY approaches the one in Donpachi.

Quote
IT'S A...- Heavy artillery barrage. Don't panic. :|

Quote
I don't believe it! They've got a doomsday machine! C'MON KID, HIT 'EM WITH EVERYTHING YA GOT!

Quote
DON'T YOU JUST THE SWEET TASTE OF VICTORY?!

Really, that man is the only reason I can't just curse out Donpachi for having no redeemable values. If only the woman in Dodonpachi was half as endearing...

That disco announcer was pretty cool though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 17, 2009, 07:41:47 AM
Maybe you're right; it's been a while since I've played DonPachi.

It also has a great boss warning message:

This is not similation. Get ready
to destoroy the enemy. Target for
the weak points of f**kin' machine.
Do your best you have ever done.


I was surprised they left in for the US version, but it's pretty easy to miss, so..
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 08:40:02 AM
Why don't you try hard?  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on October 17, 2009, 04:49:49 PM
speaking of announcers, Donut's gotta play Thunder Dragon 2. Imho I found the announcements to have a comic effect :p (doesn't help much that Danbo Daxter's picture helped me have fun with this game xD)

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9934/announcementr.png)
(source: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28055&start=90 )
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 17, 2009, 05:32:20 PM
GAHDAMYOU

That picture is hilarious.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 18, 2009, 08:37:39 PM
Does anyone else have trouble looking at the pattern in the stage 5 boss's attacks? I can't really describe it but even by squinting at the attack, I just can't seem to see as clearly as I should. Is it just my eyes or is this supposed to happen?
Also, I switched from using A-S to C-S. If only I wouldn't stop dying on that stage 5 boss I would consistently 1cc the 1st loop.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 19, 2009, 01:10:46 AM
I discovered that the way to deal with that boss' main attack (the one where he floods the screen with bullets while aiming a few at you) is to hug the inside of the thin blue bullets as close as possible. If you do this, you don't have to worry about the rest of the attack.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 19, 2009, 01:49:10 AM
FUCK.  Banshiryuu C-74 is such a bad game. :V

I don't know why I bother trying to play it.  Sometimes I just see that icon on my desktop in the corner of my eye and think 'y'know, maybe I just didn't give it a chance.  Maybe if I try to learn it better something will click.  Let's just give it a go.' 

Then I end up remembering that the stage 2 and 3 bosses are the two worst shmup bosses in all of existance.  Ever.  Well, I've never fought Hard/Lunatic Mima or anything, but she doesn't have an attack where you get a game-over if you attempt shooting her, so I'm confident in my assumptions.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 19, 2009, 01:55:07 AM
I like Banshiryuu C74 a lot more than the old version. :V I don't know why people seem to prefer the C67 version.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 19, 2009, 05:02:06 AM
FUCK.  Banshiryuu C-74 is such a bad game. :V

I don't know why I bother trying to play it.  Sometimes I just see that icon on my desktop in the corner of my eye and think 'y'know, maybe I just didn't give it a chance.  Maybe if I try to learn it better something will click.  Let's just give it a go.' 

Then I end up remembering that the stage 2 and 3 bosses are the two worst shmup bosses in all of existance.  Ever.  Well, I've never fought Hard/Lunatic Mima or anything, but she doesn't have an attack where you get a game-over if you attempt shooting her, so I'm confident in my assumptions.

Now that I've taken the time to learn how Mima works via savestate abuse she's not that hard at all. She's just really boring and badly designed. :V

And hey, that's Seihou for y-*shot*

Oh yeah, I somehow actually survived Hibachi's attack where he throws exploding bombs everywhere. I still bombed before that, but it was really surreal to have all these bullets coming at you from all directions and having it miss. Frankly, I don't really expect to ever get better at Hibachi than I am now (3-4 continues used), especially when the game slows down and speeds up without warning.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 19, 2009, 05:33:43 AM
I played a couple credits of Vasara this evening and somehow made it nearly to the middle of the shmups forum scoreboard for it. Apparently not many people play it.  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 20, 2009, 12:26:23 AM
Well... I 1cc'ed Dodonpachi.. again. And I took a screen shot of the final boss dying to prove it. Now... how do you attach images again?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 20, 2009, 12:58:31 AM
I like Banshiryuu C74 a lot more than the old version. :V I don't know why people seem to prefer the C67 version.

Seriously?  I mean, the last two stages and extra stage do have some fairly interesting parts to them, but the first four stages are all painful, and that's over half the game.  That's not even mentioning the horrible rank system and the fact that you're basically encouraged to bomb through everything difficult instead of actually learning the patterns, which is a game mechanic that I've always despised.  The C67 version isn't completely perfect of course, but aside from stage 3 and a few of the final boss' attacks it's quite well-made.

And hey, that's Seihou for y-*shot*

Pfft, the only Seihou game you've played is SG, which doesn't even have all that many more 'cheap' parts than the average Touhou game.  It certainly has a lot less than LLS, which is supposed to be like your most favoritest Touhou game evar.  I'm still waiting for you to do that lunatic 1cc.  :V


...So anyway, I played some more of both versions of BSR today because I guess I just hate myself like that;  I learned in c-74 that there's actually a secret 1-up in stage 2, so you actually get 6 lives in the whole game as opposed to 5.  Now that makes me wonder if there's one in c-67 that I haven't found.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 20, 2009, 02:07:32 AM
Seriously?  I mean, the last two stages and extra stage do have some fairly interesting parts to them, but the first four stages are all painful, and that's over half the game.  That's not even mentioning the horrible rank system and the fact that you're basically encouraged to bomb through everything difficult instead of actually learning the patterns, which is a game mechanic that I've always despised.  The C67 version isn't completely perfect of course, but aside from stage 3 and a few of the final boss' attacks it's quite well-made.

Yeah. I've been following Seihou and BSR in particular since, maybe 2005, so I've seen it go through a number of versions. I honestly can't say that any of the changes in version 2 and 3 bother me all that much.

I've always hated the stage 5 boss though. :V

Quote
...So anyway, I played some more of both versions of BSR today because I guess I just hate myself like that;  I learned in c-74 that there's actually a secret 1-up in stage 2, so you actually get 6 lives in the whole game as opposed to 5.  Now that makes me wonder if there's one in c-67 that I haven't found.

I believe the Stage 5 midboss in the C74 version can also drop an extend. It's possible that the stage 6 midboss drops one as well--or at least it did in the C67 version.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 20, 2009, 07:42:42 AM
Azinth, there are only 2 shooters in the Seihou series. :V SG is one of the two.

I simply don't find it fun, and the ever-mentinoed "I'm not playing it with sound channels that suck so badly. :()
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 21, 2009, 12:38:56 AM
Tsk, what a shame. I've finally figured out how to work Hypercam, decided to record myself fighting Hibachi, did the best I've ever done by 3ccing him, and...the resolution was all messed up because I set it differently for PC-98. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Alfred F. Jones on October 21, 2009, 12:46:33 AM
Azinth, there are only 2 shooters in the Seihou series. :V SG is one of the two.

You know, I would say that you forgot Ban Shi Ryuu, but it's Ban Shi Ryuu, so I can forgive the omission. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sodium on October 21, 2009, 01:08:20 AM
Ruro, he was excluding Kioh Gyoku.

[ruro]How is Kioh Gyoku not a shooter? >_>
Dual-shooters =/= shooters?[/ruro]
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 21, 2009, 05:44:57 AM
I'm sensing some shooter prejudice in here. >_>

I'd still rather play Twinkle Star Sprites over Kioh Gyoku or PoFV and many cases PoDD but PoDD is redeemed by being better than the latter two :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 21, 2009, 06:07:47 AM
(  ^∀^  ) オッホホホホッ


It's still a fantastic song, much like everything else in both soundtracks. Sky of Fragrant Souls has to be one of my favorite video game tracks over all right now. I get shivers down my spine whenever I hear it. It's so graceful.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 21, 2009, 06:15:25 AM
I'd say my favorites are the boss theme, the stage 5 theme, and the stage 5 boss theme. I don't know what they're called in English, and I'm too lazy to go and grab the Japanese. >.> Pretty similar to my favorites from Mushihime-sama--stage 5, boss, and stage 4.

The whole thing is definitely great, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 21, 2009, 06:28:17 AM
I'm not familiar with the Japanese names, since the OST I downloaded already had translated titles. How convenient.

My favorites are...
Mushihimesama -
'Mushihimesama, Age 15' (Selection Screen)
'Shinju Heading to the Forest' (Stage 1 theme, probably the track that really got me into Manabu Namiki's music.)
'Like the Night of the Falling Stars' (Stage 4 theme)
'The One Who is Always in the Forest' (Stage 5 theme)
'Starfall Village' (Name Entry/Hiscore screen)

Mushihimesama Futari-
'Setting Off Together' (Stage 1 theme, sounds a lot like Mushi 1's stage 1 theme)
'Is Shinju in the Forest Rebel Army?' (Stage 3 theme, shares the same melody as Mushi 1's stage 5 theme)
'On the Verge of Madness' (Stage 5 theme, oh my god it's hypnotic)
'Sky of Fragrant Souls' (TLB theme, nothing like a gentle, graceful song while you're dodging purple CAVE sludge)
'Invisible Warmth' (Ending/Epilogue song)


Notable songs:
'Kiniro no hoshi furu utakata no yoru ni' - Not in the game, I don't think, but it's part of the Mushi Futari OST. I think I got a nosebleed from the cuteness.
'Like the Night of the Falling Stars' (Arranged) - OST only, a different variation of the stage 4 theme. Very catchy.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 21, 2009, 02:23:55 PM
Mushi Futari Achievements! (http://www.succesfull.fr/index.php?option=com_succesfull&Itemid=6&l=ja&JeuID=735)

Someone at shmups forum was nice enough to translate the ones I couldn't figure out.

Quote from: honorless@shmups
In the order they're listed on that page. These are quite rough; I expect to be corrected by someone like nZero down the line ;)

Start the game
Defeat 1st stage boss
Defeat 2nd stage boss
Defeat 3rd stage boss
Defeat 4th stage mid-boss
Defeat 4th stage boss
Defeat 5th stage mid-boss
Defeat 5th stage boss 1st form
Defeat 5th stage boss 2nd form
Clear Original mode with Reco
Clear Original mode with Palm
1CC Original mode with Reco (Novice difficulty not allowed)
Clear Maniac mode with Reco
Clear Maniac mode with Palm
1CC Maniac mode with Reco (Novice difficulty not allowed)
1CC Maniac mode with Palm (Novice difficulty not allowed)
1CC Original mode with Palm (Novice difficulty not allowed)
Clear Ultra mode with Reco
Clear Ultra mode with Palm
Pick up a power-up
Pick up a MAX power-up
Pick up a bomb
(Original Mode) Get 3 million amber crystals in one playthrough
Destroy the entire Stage 5 town in one playthrough
Pick up an amber crystal with the green aura around it
(Maniac Mode) Get 250 blue-aura amber crystals on the screen at the same time
(Maniac Mode) Get your counter up to 1000
(Maniac Mode) Get your counter up to 5000
(Maniac Mode) Get your counter up to 9999
(Original Mode) Score 1 million points
(Original Mode) Score 2 million points (Novice difficulty not allowed)
(Maniac Mode) Score 1 million points
(Maniac Mode) Score 3 million points (Novice difficulty not allowed)
1CC all modes of Arrange (IIRC Original, Maniac and Ultra)
Defeat Larsa in Arrange Ultra mode
Clear Arrange mode without switching characters
Invoke Fever in Arrange mode
(Arrange Mode) Get your total counter up to 100,000

...aaaand your inevitable 11 secret achievements.

A few other people have chimed in saying that the score needed was off by a factor of 100, so it's more likely that you need 100 million and 200 million (sans Novice mode) in Original and 100 mil and 300 mil in Maniac (sans-Novice mode).

Still, some of these seem absurdly simple. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 21, 2009, 10:10:49 PM
Where is the 1CC of Ultra with no-miss and no-bomb achievement. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 21, 2009, 10:41:49 PM
Hmm....watching the videos, Futari seems to have some slowdown at the final boss, even at the arcades.
Is that on purpose, or not even the arcade could handle that many bullets?
If X360 could pull it off without lag, I can see the difficulty going up......unless that really inconsistent slowdown is on purpose.
Or is there a slowdown button? :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 21, 2009, 11:11:01 PM
I'm pretty sure that slowdown happens because the hardware is being pushed to its limit, although it wouldn't surprise me if they sometimes intentionally overload it in order to make some bullet patterns possible.

I get the impression that people look at slowdown as more of a feature than as a flaw, as long as its predictable and doesn't hurt the game too much; kind of like how deathbombing originated in the Touhou games.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 21, 2009, 11:20:22 PM
Where is the 1CC of Ultra with no-miss and no-bomb achievement. :V

I suspect it's one of the Secret Achievements.

I'm pretty sure that slowdown happens because the hardware is being pushed to its limit, although it wouldn't surprise me if they sometimes intentionally overload it in order to make some bullet patterns possible.

I get the impression that people look at slowdown as more of a feature than as a flaw, as long as its predictable and doesn't hurt the game too much; kind of like how deathbombing originated in the Touhou games.

I think the slowdown is definitely intentional.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on October 22, 2009, 12:48:51 AM
It is intentional.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on October 22, 2009, 12:49:57 AM
Both Cave members and Mihara talked about slowdown in various interviews and the general state is that in most cases slowdown in Cave games is intentional, and in some cases unavoidable (or "hardware-assisted", if you want to put it that way). If they had wanted to get rid of it, they would just decrease the amount of bullets on screen, which evidently wasn't their goal.

Slowdown that happens when switching to shot during the last pattern in DDP with certain shot types is definitely unintentional, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 22, 2009, 02:54:08 AM
Well, I'm probably not getting Mushi for the 360 simply due to lack of funds. I'm gonna get a modded PS2 soon though. I wonder how well Mushi, Ibara, ESP and Daioujou will play.

Well actually I can get a 360 and Mushi right now but to spend all my money to play 1 game is not worth it to me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 22, 2009, 03:04:56 AM
Technically you're getting 4 games in one, really :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 22, 2009, 03:22:59 AM
Would still rather have a modded ps2.  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 22, 2009, 03:36:14 AM
I really hope Death Smiles will still be in stock by the time I have the spare time to get set up with a J360.

What is this I hear about Futari coming with a version 1.01 DLC? Will this available only for a limited time?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 22, 2009, 04:13:04 AM
Hard telling. I don't know about other sites, but if you order the standard or limited edition of Mushi Futari on NCSX, it comes with a ver. 1.01 DLC card.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 23, 2009, 03:09:31 AM
I've managed to 1cc my way to stage 5 lunatic in BSR C74.  Eh, this game isn't quite as hard as it looked initially, it's just a matter of memorizing everything trivializable and planning/timing your bombs properly to get through the bullshit parts.  Of course, I still haven't cleared the game because THE STAGE 5 BOSS HOLY SHIT WTF.  Though hopefully he'll get easier now that I have stage 5 unlocked.

The game isn't as horrible as I initially thought, but I still dislike most of the stages/boss attacks/game mechanics.  I'm just playing it right now since it's a lot easier than the C67 version (yep that's right, you heard me), and it actually feels like I should be able to 1cc it in the near future, unlike C67. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 23, 2009, 03:16:29 AM
I don't remember the final boss very well, but she has an awesome final attack. I just bomb through that fight because I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to score in this game. :V

Whenever I play that game now, I spend my time in Extra. Trying to get through it without using bombs, but those stupid twins keep fucking me up with one of their attacks.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 23, 2009, 09:01:13 PM
Wow. ._. I just survived an entire one of Hibachi's attacks for the first time ever (the third one where he forces you in a thin path with missiles).

You can tell I love Dodonpachi because I play any other part of the game. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 23, 2009, 09:33:51 PM
Speaking of Dodonpachi.....damn, the deathbomb timer doesn't fuck around. Just wasted an entire credit without even bombing once. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 23, 2009, 10:05:24 PM
Wow. ._. I just survived an entire one of Hibachi's attacks for the first time ever (the third one where he forces you in a thin path with missiles).

You can tell I love Dodonpachi because I play any other part of the game. :V

tsundere

Speaking of Dodonpachi.....damn, the deathbomb timer doesn't fuck around. Just wasted an entire credit without even bombing once. :V

That's because there is no deathbombing in it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 23, 2009, 10:08:34 PM
That's because there is no deathbombing in it.
Because it's an arcade game which was made to make you waste monies
How do you actually dodge without risking a clip with 6 bombs? Spam bombs until empty then dodge?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 23, 2009, 10:30:17 PM
Because it's an arcade game which was made to make you waste monies
How do you actually dodge without risking a clip with 6 bombs? Spam bombs until empty then dodge?

because ZUN likes to hold your hand through shmups by giving you a second to redeem yourself
It requires better reflexes and foresight than Touhou.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 23, 2009, 10:31:07 PM
because ZUN likes to hold your hand through shmups by giving you a second to redeem yourself
It requires better reflexes and foresight than Touhou.
And better eyes. Trippy moving background+flashing bullets=blindness.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 24, 2009, 04:56:11 AM
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/Mobile%20Uploads/1024090040.jpg)











(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/95723.gif)
Just kidding.

It's Arrange mode.  :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 24, 2009, 05:24:54 AM
Decided to try out tate? I've never done it to my TV. :V Does it make the game better?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 24, 2009, 05:26:15 AM
because ZUN likes to hold your hand through shmups by giving you a second to redeem yourself
It requires better reflexes and foresight than Touhou.

Say what you will, death bombing is one of the reasons I like Touhou much more than other shmups (one of the MANY reasons). Giving you a small margin of error gives you a huage confidence boost.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 24, 2009, 05:41:37 AM
Decided to try out tate? I've never done it to my TV. :V Does it make the game better?

Nah, that's still yoko. The sides of the screen are black though; there are no wallpaper options in the Mushihimesama port.

Say what you will, death bombing is one of the reasons I like Touhou much more than other shmups (one of the MANY reasons). Giving you a small margin of error gives you a huage confidence boost.

That huge confidence boost will kill you in arcade shmups, though. When in doubt, bomb. Period. It's better to lose a bomb than a life, especially in a game where you don't get 6-8 extends.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 25, 2009, 02:49:19 AM
Whywhywhywhywhy....

I've gotten to the point where I can 1cc the first loop of Dodonpachi consistently. Now all I have to do is find a way to not feel the adrenaline rush (it's painful enough to make me want to puke) not be interrupted by my brother or parents and improve my game to the point where I get to the 2nd loop by not dying more than 2 times... wish me luck.

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 28, 2009, 10:49:04 PM
Say what you will, death bombing is one of the reasons I like Touhou much more than other shmups (one of the MANY reasons). Giving you a small margin of error gives you a huage confidence boost.
Playing DDP again, one thing is death bombing and another thing is having to bomb 1 second before the bullet even comes close.

For some reason, DDP makes me feel 50x less comfortable than Touhou to the point where I'm afraid to dodge ANYTHING.

By the way, that stage 5(I think) boss which throws the explosions at you....how large are the hitboxes? It looks like a complete wall.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 29, 2009, 12:48:21 AM
Is there any way to make savestates in Dodonpachi? I REALLY hate messing up somewhere in stage 3.

It also seems Dodonpachi doesn't show more than 4 lives up in the top left corner... I almost thought I didn't get the secret life in stage 3.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on October 29, 2009, 01:34:56 AM
Funnily enough, I've just said to myself "screw bombing, I'm going to play this like Touhou" and managed 4cc(instead of the usual 7).....can't remember now.
How many credits does it display anyways? 9? Or it doesn't display any further but it counts them?

It became so much easier when I've focused on dodging instead of bombing.

My initial goal was to reach the 1st extend and I've made it all the way to 12m on the second continue(probably not a real highscore since initial bombs and whatnot) - no idea how scoring works, but I've went for a long time without bombing in st4 and 6 - which made my score skyrocket.

Could have been a 3cc if only the stage 6 final attack wasn't so fast. Killed me with 4 bombs before I've seen it coming.
Not that I expect any good results, I play it only for fun.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 29, 2009, 01:44:39 AM
If I were to compile a list of my top 5 least favorite bosses, Dodonpachi stage 5 would be number 1 on my list without question... the others I would have to think about. If I just stopped dying on stage 5 with bombs in stock... I would have just 1cc'ed with a life and a bunch of bombs left.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 29, 2009, 02:08:30 AM
Is there any way to make savestates in Dodonpachi? I REALLY hate messing up somewhere in stage 3.

It also seems Dodonpachi doesn't show more than 4 lives up in the top left corner... I almost thought I didn't get the secret life in stage 3.

Look in your controls thingamajig to find what saving/loading state is bound to. I would have never bothered to reach the second loop if I didn't use savestates.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 29, 2009, 02:42:45 AM
If I were to compile a list of my top 5 least favorite bosses, Dodonpachi stage 5 would be number 1 on my list without question... the others I would have to think about. If I just stopped dying on stage 5 with bombs in stock... I would have just 1cc'ed with a life and a bunch of bombs left.

You obviously haven't fought BSR-C74's stage 5 boss.  Or its stage 6 boss.  Or the stage 4 boss, or the stage 3 boss, or the stage 2 boss, etc etc.

Also, I'd like to note that, despite my constant bitching about the game's story mode, it has one hell of an epic Extra stage.  Well, except for the Mei and Mai battle, which is made of random boss movement and fail.  I haven't gotten past Gates yet simply because of them (though the fact that I pretty much never use bombs when I should might have something to do with that as well)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: trancehime on October 29, 2009, 10:21:56 AM
BSR-C74 has the most awesome and the most frustrating (at the same time) Extra stage

Seriously
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 29, 2009, 03:17:26 PM
Just grabbed the three top places on the scoreboard at the college Zero Gunner cab. Yeah, my scores are bad too, but less bad than whoever else had that board owned before, and I beat his scores by a decent margin. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 29, 2009, 11:49:03 PM
Look in your controls thingamajig to find what saving/loading state is bound to. I would have never bothered to reach the second loop if I didn't use savestates.

I'm using mame32v103 but I keep getting "Unable to save due to pending anonymous errors"
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 29, 2009, 11:52:31 PM
Try an older version of Mame, like WolfMAME99, linked by moozooh several pages back.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on October 30, 2009, 12:29:48 AM
I got wolfmame.99 like you said, but mame runs... horizontally. Is there anyway to fix this?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on October 30, 2009, 06:15:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcEZjTJ-q54

I'm sure a lot of you have already seen/heard of/played this game already, but I'm posting it here anyway because it blows my fucking mind.@_@

I almost want to try playing it.  Almost.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 30, 2009, 06:37:37 AM
Ah I've played that one. Same developer as Zillion Beatz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVWDnb0HYhA). I like how the patterns are synchronized with the music.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on October 30, 2009, 06:46:04 AM
I got wolfmame.99 like you said, but mame runs... horizontally. Is there anyway to fix this?

I think this can be fixed somehow by fiddling with the options. Right click Dodonpachi in the emulator menu and fiddle around until it orients itself the right way.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 31, 2009, 06:52:54 AM
Holy shit, Batsugun is harder than I thought it would be.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 31, 2009, 08:11:00 AM
No kidding. I started playing the Special Version of Batsugun first, and got to... what, stage 5 on my first try? Then I played the original and made it to... stage 3, I think :P

It was only made worse when I realized that the Special version was somewhat easier, but had more stages. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 31, 2009, 08:21:28 AM
I started with Original, because I forgot that you could change the game to Special Version with the Saturn port. It did not go so well; maybe stage 2 or 3 with one credit. It felt like a really mean Psikyo game, with the added fun of the hitbox being about as big as the whole ship.

Then it occurred to me that I could switch to Special Version, which I did. I didn't do much better though, but I could tell that the game was a bit easier. After I lost all of my lives, I concluded that playing Batsugun while being pretty drunk wasn't such a good idea, so I stopped. :V

Lag-less Battle Garegga next. SSF is awesome.~
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 31, 2009, 08:39:03 AM
Aww, you're playing an actual copy of the game? Lucky.

The MAME rom of Batsugun is playable, but sucks graphically and has no music. *jealous*

I wonder... how much to Sega Saturns usually go for, and what shmups are there for me to get on it, aside from Batsugun, DoDonPachi, and possibly Garegga?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on October 31, 2009, 08:58:45 AM
Oh, nah. Hence the reference to SSF at the end. :P

Uh, the only other game that comes to mind is Radiant Silvergun, although I`m not that big on Treasure. The Saturn has quite a good lineup of shmups though--http://www.racketboy.com/retro/sega/saturn/2008/10/sega-saturn-shmups-2d-shooters.html

Saturns appear to be really cheap on eBay, although I`m not too sure what you need to do to get them to play imports.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on October 31, 2009, 04:31:00 PM
Oh. I didn't know what SSF stood for :P

Anyway, wow. That is an impressive lineup. I really should look into this.

*lists what caught my attention*

Batsugun
Battle Garegga
DoDonPachi
Soukyugurentai
Twinkle Star Sprites
Strikers 1945 and Strikers 1945 2
Gunbird (Japanese only it seems :()
Sengoku Blade (just because you can play as Marion from Gunbird in the Saturn port)
Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang
Game Tengoku (just because the MAME version is unplayable)
Shienryu
Image Fight & X-Multiply
DonPachi
Gekirindan (I love this game~)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 12:31:47 AM
How do you enable Autofire in DoDonPachi on MAME? I can't figure it out for the life of me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 01:01:12 AM
How do you enable Autofire in DoDonPachi on MAME? I can't figure it out for the life of me.

Access service mode and set '3 C Button Not Use' to '3 C Button Full-Auto.' You'll also have to bind a key to the C button in MAME. To access service mode, hold the key bound to service mode through the copyright jargon as the game is booting. I don't know what the default service mode key is, but it should be there along with all the other game-specific key settings in MAME.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 01:03:53 AM
Aha. Thanks for that :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 01:20:41 AM
There's also a difficulty setting in there. I've always wondered how different the game becomes by setting it to Very Hard; too lazy to find out for myself.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 02:18:40 AM
I must be doing something wrong, I can't get into the service mode =<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 01, 2009, 02:20:17 AM
....you gotta be kidding me. I reached the 2nd loop of the game and then started using savestates.... and then I fought Hibachi... No words for how bullshit that stage 5 boss was. No words for the amount of memorization that will be needed to 1cc the 2nd loop- everyone moves waaaay too fast and the bullets overlap waaaay too much, making it very hard to see.

Why can't this game show your hitbox? Why does this game have to loop? Why couldn't they just allow you to fight Hibachi if you met those bizarre requirements? Thank god the cave games on the ps2 won't loop. (except Daidoujou)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 02:22:13 AM
Do keep in mind that there's a reason why they don't loop. They're significantly harder the first time around. That still doesn't say much for Dai-Ou-Jou, which is bullshit no matter which way you look at it :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 01, 2009, 02:29:15 AM
Do keep in mind that there's a reason why they don't loop. They're significantly harder the first time around. That still doesn't say much for Dai-Ou-Jou, which is bullshit no matter which way you look at it :P

I would prefer it if the game didn't loop no matter what. I would rather have a game that is harder the first time around (I'm gonna assume the shooters on the ps2 are equally hard as the 2nd loop of Dodonpachi) so you have more resources. It took me forever to reach the 2nd loop-the condition I filled was: lose no more than 2 ships. I had to bring my best game to the table and even then I just barely made it. If the game didn't loop, I would find it a lot easier to practice it and I would have an extra life.
Btw, I hear Daioujou is the hardest bullet hell game of all time. Is that true?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 02:51:30 AM
I must be doing something wrong, I can't get into the service mode =<

Make sure you're keeping the Service Mode button held down. It takes a few seconds of holding the button to access it. I also just found out that that you can access Service Mode at any point in the game, so just try on the title screen or something.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 03:16:51 AM
Btw, I hear Daioujou is the hardest bullet hell game of all time. Is that true?

If it's not a proven fact at this point, I'd say it's pretty damn close.

Make sure you'd keeping the Service Mode button held down. It takes a few seconds of holding the button to access it. I also just found out that that you can access Service Mode at any point in the game, so just try on the title screen or something.

Oh, I see. No wonder it wasn't working. And yes, Very Hard is a kick in the crotch. I feel like I'm playing Dai-Ou-Jou.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 03:23:17 AM
I would prefer it if the game didn't loop no matter what. I would rather have a game that is harder the first time around (I'm gonna assume the shooters on the ps2 are equally hard as the 2nd loop of Dodonpachi) so you have more resources. It took me forever to reach the 2nd loop-the condition I filled was: lose no more than 2 ships. I had to bring my best game to the table and even then I just barely made it. If the game didn't loop, I would find it a lot easier to practice it and I would have an extra life.
Btw, I hear Daioujou is the hardest bullet hell game of all time. Is that true?

Dai Ou Jou certainly meets and exceeds the difficulty of DoDonPachi's second loop--at some points during its first loop, and definitely throughout its second. Mushihime-sama, albeit having a completely different style of bullet patterns, also has the potential to as well, depending on the difficulty mode selected at the start of the game. Ibara, is a Yagawa game, so it can't be compared. ESP Galuda is also quite different--its focus is on bullet canceling and it's widely considered to be one of Cave's easier offerings. Only Dai Ou Jou loops.

I wouldn't consider Dai Ou Jou to be the hardest bullet hell, but it's one of them, for sure. Cave's Ketsui, ESP Galuda II, and Mushihime-sama Futari are also considered to be very difficult. You would have to factor in all of the non-Cave shooters to come up with the most difficult one, and I wouldn't even know where to begin.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 03:47:48 AM
I wouldn't say many CAVE shmups are the 'hardest' by a long shot. Psikyo shmups make me smile on the outside and cry on the inside. I think much of the difficulty in CAVE shmups comes more from their complex scoring mechanics and how it kicks your ass when you try to play for score because of them.

As for Mushi, the volume of bullets makes DoDonPachi and Dai-Ou-Jou pale in comparison. The catch is, a lot of it is streaming, and your hitbox is tiny. That doesn't say much for its difficulty though, because it's insane. I've played a couple hundred credits at this point and the farthest I've got on one credit is halfway through stage 4.  That sounds significant, since there's only 5 stages, but stage 5 is insanely long. We're talking 8-12 minutes here. I'm very confident that I will 1CC it eventually though-- especially if I swallow my pride and start playing for survival instead of score for once.

ESPGaluda is, in fact, pretty easy compared to most CAVE games, especially because you can slow bullets down and cancel them out. However, I've noticed that if you take it easy, it will come back to bite you in the ass. I dunno if there's a significant rank boost if you perfect the first three stages, or if it's just me being overconfident, but stage 4 is when the shit starts to hit the fan for me. I have yet to beat the stage 4 boss.

I have yet to play Ibara, but since I've developed a slight liking for Yagawa's style, I'm sure I'll enjoy it, especially the Arrange mode, which looks more fun than the main game itself. The whole game revolves around managing rank, and in Arrange mode, there's actually a Rank meter at the top of the screen!

As for harder bullet hell games, I think Mars Matrix could contend. Seriously.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 04:01:56 AM
Ibara also has great music. Stage 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7-sgI1rnQo); holy shit.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 04:10:09 AM
Kinda makes me wish where I could find the OST. Haven't had much luck yet.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 01, 2009, 06:52:32 AM
Soooo I started playing Ketsui Death Label. I don't understand anything at all :V
Anyone have some pointers?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 07:01:59 AM
Sorry, nope. I don't have that one, can't find it anywhere for a reasonable price. I wish I had it, though. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 07:19:13 AM
ESPGaluda is, in fact, pretty easy compared to most CAVE games, especially because you can slow bullets down and cancel them out. However, I've noticed that if you take it easy, it will come back to bite you in the ass. I dunno if there's a significant rank boost if you perfect the first three stages, or if it's just me being overconfident, but stage 4 is when the shit starts to hit the fan for me. I have yet to beat the stage 4 boss.

I was just reading around, and according to EOJ at CAVE-STG, ESPGaluda does indeed have rank. He seems to think that it's based on not dying. So if you take it easy and no-miss the first three stages, then I guess it makes sense for stage 4 to become really difficult; in addition to that, it seems to me that there's a difficulty spike there regardless. If that's true, then I wonder if committing suicide will decrease the rank, like in Battle Garegga?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 07:32:50 AM
It's definitely a possibility, but I work hard for those extends, dammit :P I mean, in Garegga and the like, extends are a renewable resource if you do stuff right. ESPGaluda gives you 2 score-based ones and one hidden one.

At any rate, it's worth a try.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Oh wow, the 'Show Time (Arranged)' track on the Ibara OST is fantastic.

EDIT: Also, why is there an amazing arrangement of a Mushihimesama track on the ESPGaluda OST?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 11:03:14 PM
I prefer the original, but I think the whole soundtrack is superb.

Hm, I didn't catch that, but it's been a while since I have listened to those two OSTs. After doing a little researching, Dynasty apparently was an image song for a future project, which turned into Mushihime-sama.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 11:11:49 PM
Ah, neat.

Hey, Aisha. Did you see that Icycalm 2.0 thread at Shmups forum? That Gardenia guy is cracking me up something fierce.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 01, 2009, 11:32:37 PM
Yeah, I'm following that thread. I'm surprised it hasn't been locked yet, but I suppose everyone is having fun with it. It's hilarious. It also gave me an opportunity to revisit Icycalm's forums. That was funny too, for a while, because there's only so much of that shit you can take in at any given time.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 01, 2009, 11:34:04 PM
The hilarious part is that people actually look up to that rotten helminth of a person, and will go as far to act like him to defend him!  ::)

EDIT: I didn't think that thread could have become any more hilarious. I was wrong. My sides hurt, here.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 02, 2009, 10:22:21 PM
Holy shit. *collapse*

Blog crosspost: (http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Momijitsuki/)

Hello, Mushihimesama Arrange mode TLB. Nice to meet you.
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/Mobile%20Uploads/1102091702.jpg)
Now, kindly die in a fire, 'kay? ヾ(^o^)ノ <3


So, so, SO close. My hands are shaking as I type this. Not only did I come so close to beating the game, I almost doubled my top score as well! Hopefully I can make it onto the Mushihimesama scoreboard at Shmups forum (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18055&start=0).
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/Mobile%20Uploads/1102091703a.jpg)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 02, 2009, 11:08:28 PM
That's nice! My best score is 280 million, but I haven't played for so long... Damn I want my Touhou addiction to end so I can enjoy other games again =P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 02, 2009, 11:22:18 PM
Nice. Did you ever clear that final pattern?

I finally understand how to score on this mode, so I'm hoping to at least make the bottom of the scoreboard soon.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 02, 2009, 11:38:04 PM
Holy shit. *collapse*

Blog crosspost: (http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Momijitsuki/)

Hello, Mushihimesama Arrange mode TLB. Nice to meet you.
[...]
Now, kindly die in a fire, 'kay? ヾ(^o^)ノ <3


So, so, SO close. My hands are shaking as I type this. Not only did I come so close to beating the game, I almost doubled my top score as well! Hopefully I can make it onto the Mushihimesama scoreboard at Shmups forum (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18055&start=0).
[...]

Haha, nice. I know what that feeling is like. Years ago I managed to complete a PCB Phantasm run with a score high enough to displace MotK's then-#1 score on the highscore boards by a large margin (though I never submitted it :-\). I had to go lay down just to calm my nerves.

Playing that stage for score was fun as hell, though. I need to find a new game to play for score. I find BWR's score system very appealing, so by extension of that,  I desperately want to get my hands on Ketsui since I think I'd fall in love with it. Fucking 5pb...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 02, 2009, 11:44:58 PM
Nice. Did you ever clear that final pattern?

I finally understand how to score on this mode, so I'm hoping to at least make the bottom of the scoreboard soon.

No I never defeated the TLB... Then i gave up on the game, forgot why..

I recorded a video of my stage 1... I guess it's the 1st stage I've played most in my life =P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Ws5rVh0M4
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 03, 2009, 05:53:13 AM
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8459/gunbird2score.th.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/gunbird2score.jpg/)

Got 500k in Gunbird 2.  At the exact moment that I game-overed.  I thought I wouldn't make it there for a sec.

I think I'm sort of starting to get this game.  Still can't figure that stage 5 boss out for the life of me though.  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 03, 2009, 01:09:59 PM
I played some of that yesterday, too. I only managed to come 10,000 away from 400,000. It'd be a lot easier it I was playing with a stick. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Napalnman1231 on November 04, 2009, 01:36:07 AM
I wouldn't say many CAVE shmups are the 'hardest' by a long shot. Psikyo shmups make me smile on the outside and cry on the inside. I think much of the difficulty in CAVE shmups comes more from their complex scoring mechanics and how it kicks your ass when you try to play for score because of them.

As for Mushi, the volume of bullets makes DoDonPachi and Dai-Ou-Jou pale in comparison. The catch is, a lot of it is streaming, and your hitbox is tiny. That doesn't say much for its difficulty though, because it's insane. I've played a couple hundred credits at this point and the farthest I've got on one credit is halfway through stage 4.  That sounds significant, since there's only 5 stages, but stage 5 is insanely long. We're talking 8-12 minutes here. I'm very confident that I will 1CC it eventually though-- especially if I swallow my pride and start playing for survival instead of score for once.

ESPGaluda is, in fact, pretty easy compared to most CAVE games, especially because you can slow bullets down and cancel them out. However, I've noticed that if you take it easy, it will come back to bite you in the ass. I dunno if there's a significant rank boost if you perfect the first three stages, or if it's just me being overconfident, but stage 4 is when the shit starts to hit the fan for me. I have yet to beat the stage 4 boss.

I have yet to play Ibara, but since I've developed a slight liking for Yagawa's style, I'm sure I'll enjoy it, especially the Arrange mode, which looks more fun than the main game itself. The whole game revolves around managing rank, and in Arrange mode, there's actually a Rank meter at the top of the screen!

As for harder bullet hell games, I think Mars Matrix could contend. Seriously.

nah, Psikyo shooters are plain fun and kinda hard to do in 1 credit
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 04, 2009, 01:37:38 AM
nah, Psikyo shooters are plain fun and kinda hard to do in 1 credit

'Kinda hard'? You kidding?

I never said I didn't like them. I just said they kick my ass and make me like it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 04, 2009, 06:29:30 AM
Finally cleared Ketsui Death Label in Very Hard modo.
Death Label mode will be a fucking thrill ride.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 04, 2009, 09:14:53 PM
Decided to play a Raiden Flash Game (http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21621/Raiden-Space-Ship-Game.html) today. Beat the entire fucking thing without losing a life, but that last boss is incredibly stupid. It consisted of me dodging the same baby-difficulty bullets for literally 8-10 minutes.

And then? Loop 2! *shoots self in head*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 05, 2009, 12:09:51 AM
For some reason that Flash game is really hard. :V I think my computer is running it faster than it should.

I wish the Raiden games worked well in MAME. I know next to nothing about this series.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 05, 2009, 12:24:39 AM
Try using the curvy laser. It hits pretty much everything.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 05, 2009, 01:24:43 AM
!!! instant challenge event !!!

Aisha,
1- get the Raiden Fighters Jet rom (japanese version)
2- read the configuration procedures here http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27936
3- watch this video (VLC Video Player is guaranteed to work with it) http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=2611
4- try to score as high as you can within one week (tip: remodel your gameplay strategy so that you can take as much risks -- and reap the rewards from them -- as you're currently able to handle) and see how well you do against the people who've participated in this year's STGT :D (don't worry, consider it just a comparative personal landmark. Feel free to drop this mission if you're not enjoying it -- I didn't have such a choice, but I did have fun with this game :p)

edit:
5- here's a page containing tips and details about the game's scoring mechanics, that my team sent to me during the tournament: http://web.archive.org/web/20020224150902/alluro95.tripod.com/raiden/rfjsecrets.htm
important note: to play as the slaves, just insert the coin, and when you're at the title screen, hold Bomb and then press Start. Input your initials normally, and then just select your ship normally.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 05, 2009, 01:30:09 AM
Ooh, let's make this into a mini-tournament-- just us in the STG thread here, I suppose! I haven't played RFJ for a while now!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 05, 2009, 06:26:04 AM
I played that flash game when it first came out. Fun in a sort of mindless way back then, but after being into Touhou for nearly two years holy fuck that is boring. The first boss doesn't even shoot at you.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 05, 2009, 12:49:19 PM
I think it should be considered an achievement for being able to beat it without dying AND without falling asleep. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 05, 2009, 03:22:47 PM
forgot to add this: http://web.archive.org/web/20020224150902/alluro95.tripod.com/raiden/rfjsecrets.htm

this was the page that my team sent to me, during the tournament. Just to not leave new players (such as myself at that time) clueless about the scoring mechanics. Enjoy :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 07, 2009, 07:18:51 AM
Holy shiiiiiiiit, I got a 19 coin chain in Gunbird 2.  19.  I felt like a fucking GOD. :V  Then I started dying all over the place and lost around stage 4.

This game (and Psikyo games in general I suppose) is just so hilariously unforgiving.  A few runs after said chaining experience I was doing amazingly well and 1LCed all the way to the stage 5 boss.  30 seconds into said boss, I got a game over.  Four lives (well three for me because I suck at chaining) for 14 stages is some serious lol.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 07, 2009, 07:21:39 AM
Arcade shmups remind me of the Shin Megami Tensei series-- despite any amount of confidence you might have, the game will still knock you on your ass at any given time, just to let you know who's boss.

And I love that.

Psikyo games seem to be the embodiment of a Megaten Moment in shmup form. :P

Still, 19-coin-chain is pretty sweet. You should post that on the Shmups forum scoreboard. (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23288)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 07, 2009, 07:36:01 AM
Arcade shmups remind me of the Shin Megami Tensei series-- despite any amount of confidence you might have, the game will still knock you on your ass at any given time, just to let you know who's boss.

And I love that.

errr. Sorry for off topicness. But I was just eyeballing "Shin megami Tensei: devil survivor" for the Gameboy DS. Is this game consistent with your opinion on the rest of the series? I don't want to pull a fire emblem: shadow dragon again...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 07, 2009, 07:37:06 AM
speaking of Psikyo games..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2AeqrV4THQ

..... please, pay attention only to the video description, comments, and most importantly, to Shoe-sama's response video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMVnUsAme1Y
(wonder if it works somewhat for Gunbird 2, though. Even Strikers 1945 II had certain parts where you would need memorization)

anyways, congrats on that chain, I've played the two Gunbirds for a short time, and even though it seems easier to collect the coins at full value, compared to Strikers 1945 II, chaining is still a challenge (got up to 6x, on the day I've got a chance to play it, at my friend's house. Thanks to STGT having Strikers 1945 II on it :p).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 07, 2009, 07:47:34 AM
Still, 19-coin-chain is pretty sweet. You should post that on the Shmups forum scoreboard. (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23288)

I've been planning on posting there eventually tbh (I lurk there once in a while), but I wanted to improve my score a little bit first.  The chain alone might be worth making a post though. :D

Also, out of curiosity, which Strikers game is usually considered the best?  Not that I'll be trying that for a while, since GB2 and Dragon Blaze are slaughtering me enough as it is, but I'll probably get to it eventually.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 07, 2009, 08:02:56 AM
BTW I've tried mushi (not futari) and I find that my shooter game skills are...on-par to barely 1cc normal normal. If I played it all day long, I rekon I can 1cc normal-hard, or maniac-normal (ultra-difficulty felt roughly equal to maniac for me, but I only tried it twice so...don't take my word for it).

Now I hear that alot of it is streaming, but I find that streaming tends to get me to a certain point in a particular pattern, then all of a sudden... I'm walled. Now I don't know if this is a talent for players to avoid this whole walling scenario, or if I'm a scrub and can't dodge thru the bullets that I'm currently streaming to escape the wall. But either way I'm pretty sure being able to get past those difficulty settings any time soon, even if I play all day long for multiple days is beyond me.

Can anybody suggest to me a shooter game or two, or three..hell maybe 10 >=P that is roughly equal in difficulty to touhou on lunatic setting for me to practice on? Maybe less so (or more, whatever, if you think it'll help me learn). But definately harder than hard.

I'm not sure why, but I've noticed a greater interest in loli-shooters than spaceship ones. I don't care that it's a loli that you pilot. But there's something about playing a light-hearted happy-go lucky game that's brutally difficult (for me) than a depressing one. Mushihimesama doesn't come across as a loli-game so much as Touhou for example, but it counts for me, so any advice is appreciated.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 07, 2009, 08:18:27 AM
errr. Sorry for off topicness. But I was just eyeballing "Shin megami Tensei: devil survivor" for the Gameboy DS. Is this game consistent with your opinion on the rest of the series? I don't want to pull a fire emblem: shadow dragon again...

Never played it before, sorry. The only SMT game I've ever played is Persona 3, and the rest of the stuff I know I know from hearsay and YouTube videos. Either way, I've heard pretty good things about Devil Survivor, and may pick it up myself, sometime.

speaking of Psikyo games..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2AeqrV4THQ

..... please, pay attention only to the video description, comments, and most importantly, to Shoe-sama's response video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMVnUsAme1Y
(wonder if it works somewhat for Gunbird 2, though. Even Strikers 1945 II had certain parts where you would need memorization)

anyways, congrats on that chain, I've played the two Gunbirds for a short time, and even though it seems easier to collect the coins at full value, compared to Strikers 1945 II, chaining is still a challenge (got up to 6x, on the day I've got a chance to play it, at my friend's house. Thanks to STGT having Strikers 1945 II on it :p).

First of all, the guy in the first video hasn't done much research.  Twin Galaxies is a horrible site to claim 'world records' for shmups, first off. The top DoDonPachi score is hilariously low in comparison to someone like PROMETHEUS, who is pretty much the best non-Japanese DoDonPachi player. That aside, he clearly doesn't even know how to play Strikers 1945 II for score, since he's just scooping up gold bars, not even paying attention to chaining them. If he thinks he's some sort of pro, I'd laugh at him. Unsurprisingly, I see a bunch of Shmups forum denizens blasting the guy in the comments.

Second, it's hard to take anything shoe-sama says seriously. The guy's a pro at shmups in general, and he knows it. He's also an outstanding troll. There's a reason why the guy got banned from Shmups forum. :P His 'moron play' video is obviously mocking the 'lol second place world record' guy by using his style and almost doubling his score. It's shoe, after all. I have very little doubt that if he tried, he could get pretty far into the second loop playing conservatively.

I've been planning on posting there eventually tbh (I lurk there once in a while), but I wanted to improve my score a little bit first.  The chain alone might be worth making a post though. :D

Also, out of curiosity, which Strikers game is usually considered the best?  Not that I'll be trying that for a while, since GB2 and Dragon Blaze are slaughtering me enough as it is, but I'll probably get to it eventually.

Pshhh, go ahead and post. It doesn't have to be an outstanding score, it's just nice to see people participate-- and frankly, a 19 coin chain is great and lands you smack in the middle of that scoreboard.

As for which Strikers game I think is the best, I'm a little biased. I'd say it's easily Strikers 1945 III/1999, because Necronopticous is pretty much my mentor when it comes to anything shmup-related (he's the one who pretty much introduced me to the genre overall by sparking my interest in Mushihimesama, which is now obviously my favorite game, not to mention I consider him one of my closer friends)-- and he's the only known Western player who has 1CC'd both loops of the game, so naturally, he's been pushing me to play the game a lot as well.

Strikers 1945 II is a fun game, no doubt-- especially if you play as Hayate. I just think 1945 III is more fun. (Unlock the X-36 for SUPER AIRPLANE MECHA ACTION and MEGALASERS!)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 07, 2009, 08:26:03 AM
@Ghaleon, some stuff I'd recommend:

Blue Wish Resurrection:  It's a Cave clone... a really really well-made one.  Good music, fast-paced stages, awesome bosses, and the difficulty progresses really nicely.  It's also freeware, so you have absolutely no reason not to get it.  There is a HUGE difficulty jump from Original to Hell though... Original is a just little bit easier than Hard while Hell is... way harder than any Touhou lunatic.

Cho Ren Sha:  It's actually a manic shmup instead of danmaku, but it's a really well-made game, and it's also freeware, so you've nothing to lose by trying it.  The second loop gets pretty damn intense, and the TLB is like the most fun fight ever.

Dodonpachi's first loop is reasonable enough, at least once you get over the lack of deathbombing and learn enough scoring tricks to get all the extends.  There's also Esp.Ra.De., though I personally find it a lot harder than DDP... might just be me though.

Then there's Seihou Shuusou Gyoku.  It's basically similar in style to the PC-98 Touhou shmups.  It's a little bit harder to survive in than most Touhou Lunatics since it only gives you 6 lives, has anti-deathbombing, and some crazy rank, but it's still doable.  I personally think it's a great game, but most people seem to despise it, so approach with caution. >_>

There's way more that I didn't mention, but it's late and I need to get some sleep. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 07, 2009, 09:03:56 AM
@Ghaleon, some stuff I'd recommend:

Blue Wish Resurrection:  It's a Cave clone... a really really well-made one.  Good music, fast-paced stages, awesome bosses, and the difficulty progresses really nicely.  It's also freeware, so you have absolutely no reason not to get it.  There is a HUGE difficulty jump from Original to Hell though... Original is a just little bit easier than Hard while Hell is... way harder than any Touhou lunatic.

Cho Ren Sha:  It's actually a manic shmup instead of danmaku, but it's a really well-made game, and it's also freeware, so you've nothing to lose by trying it.  The second loop gets pretty damn intense, and the TLB is like the most fun fight ever.

Dodonpachi's first loop is reasonable enough, at least once you get over the lack of deathbombing and learn enough scoring tricks to get all the extends.  There's also Esp.Ra.De., though I personally find it a lot harder than DDP... might just be me though.

Then there's Seihou Shuusou Gyoku.  It's basically similar in style to the PC-98 Touhou shmups.  It's a little bit harder to survive in than most Touhou Lunatics since it only gives you 6 lives, has anti-deathbombing, and some crazy rank, but it's still doable.  I personally think it's a great game, but most people seem to despise it, so approach with caution. >_>

There's way more that I didn't mention, but it's late and I need to get some sleep. :V

good enough for a few months or so! >=P. Thanks >=).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 07, 2009, 09:19:21 AM
WARNING: A HUGE BATTLESHIP "MEGA WALL OF TEXT" IS APPROACHING FAST

Seriously, please read all of this, I took a lot of time digging through my folders for recommendations!


BTW I've tried mushi (not futari) and I find that my shooter game skills are...on-par to barely 1cc normal normal. If I played it all day long, I rekon I can 1cc normal-hard, or maniac-normal (ultra-difficulty felt roughly equal to maniac for me, but I only tried it twice so...don't take my word for it).

Now I hear that alot of it is streaming, but I find that streaming tends to get me to a certain point in a particular pattern, then all of a sudden... I'm walled. Now I don't know if this is a talent for players to avoid this whole walling scenario, or if I'm a scrub and can't dodge thru the bullets that I'm currently streaming to escape the wall. But either way I'm pretty sure being able to get past those difficulty settings any time soon, even if I play all day long for multiple days is beyond me.

Can anybody suggest to me a shooter game or two, or three..hell maybe 10 >=P that is roughly equal in difficulty to touhou on lunatic setting for me to practice on? Maybe less so (or more, whatever, if you think it'll help me learn). But definately harder than hard.

I'm not sure why, but I've noticed a greater interest in loli-shooters than spaceship ones. I don't care that it's a loli that you pilot. But there's something about playing a light-hearted happy-go lucky game that's brutally difficult (for me) than a depressing one. Mushihimesama doesn't come across as a loli-game so much as Touhou for example, but it counts for me, so any advice is appreciated.

Honestly, I don't bother with the difficulty settings in arcade shmups. They're meant to be played on the normal settings, and besides, the better you do, the more likely you are to be raped by rank later on.

As far as Mushi goes, I kind of think that Original Mode is harder than Maniac Mode-- not because of the bullet count, but because Mushi Original is pretty much CAVE's take on a Psikyo game-- easy for 2 stages, and be prepared for super-fast bullet nightmare after that. While I love Psikyo games, I'm awful at them. Maniac mode is literally more my speed.

As for Ultra mode, it's nowhere near Maniac mode-- it's so, so, so much worse. I'm lucky to get to stage 2 on good days when I know I can get to the end of Mushi Maniac mode if I just swallow my pride and stop trying to play for score for once.

As for the streaming part, yeah, a lot of Mushi is streaming, but not to the 'lol it's liek playan Source of Rains for 30 minutes straight' extent. There's a lot more substance to it than that. You have to learn where enemies spawn so you don't get walled in, and you'll quickly learn how to direct enemy bullets to leave you a gap to get through. In the case of Mushi, your hitbox is tiny, so you can pull off a lot more dodges than you think you can. I can't stress enough how important it is to trust your hitbox at times, but also how important it is to bomb when you need to-- and that's something that really rubs me the wrong way in Touhou games. So many Touhou players get thrown off in arcade shmups because their minds are wired in a 'BOMBING = BAD' view. Well, in arcade shmups, there's no such thing as a Border of Life and Death and Deathbombing, and bomb bonuses at the end of the game are superficial at best-- so use them as much as you need to! It's always better to bomb than to die, especially since you don't get a ton of extends like you do in Touhou.

For recommendations, especially if you want to get into CAVE shmups, I'd strongly suggest ESP Ra.De. It's not an extremely hard game (I've made it pretty close to the end, myself), and Irori is a pretty cute character (albeit somewhat hard to use).

If you have the means to play it, go for ESPGaluda if you haven't already. While it's not a lovely light-hearted game, it's colorful, has a fun gameplay system, and you can play as gender-swapping characters, one of which is a loli.

As far as recommendations that are like Touhou on Lunatic difficulty, it's kind of hard to say, since most arcade shmups are nowhere near as slow as Touhou's pretty patterns, and there's still the whole 'you don't get many extends' part of arcade shmups to consider. As far as difficulty goes as a whole, pretty much any game you play is going to be harder than Lunatic once you get close to the end of the game, especially if you're doing well.

I'll say now that many recommendations that I'll say past ESP Ra. De. and ESPGaluda aren't going to be loli shmups-- and I strongly suggest not letting yourself be restricted by that, because you'll be missing out on a lot of great games that way-- but some ones that you may be interested in:

Gunbird 2: Very much a happy-go-lucky game with 2 loli characters (I consider Marion to be a Marisa Archetype), but the difficulty will get to you, and it's nothing like Touhou.

Battle Bakraid: Difficulty-wise, I'd rank this pretty close to Touhou Hard/Lunatic. It's not so bad, but scoring can be a pain, and there are no loli characters.

Gekirindan: A really fun game with a pretty easy scoring system, and very versatile characters in gameplay. There are powerups that give each character unique option style changes, and you can also level up secondary weapons (Homing Laser, Missiles, or Napalm). Not so rough as far as difficulty goes... on your first life. If you die, you're pretty much fucked, since you lose pretty much every powerup you collected to that point.

Progear: It doesn't really meet any requirement that you want aside from the fact that your secondary shot type can be controlled by a loli character, but it's a beautiful game. Nice bullet patterns, a pretty fun scoring system. However, the skill curve is pretty sharp, and it's a horizontal shmup, which turns a lot of people off.

Raiden Fighters Jet: Also doesn't meet any of your requirements, but it's a must-play anyway. It's a blast. There are a ton of ships to choose from, and all of them have 2 unique shot types-- and most of them get nifty charge attacks for each shot type.

Twinkle Star Sprites: PoDD and PoFV were pretty much copied from this game's style. I like it a lot. I still wanna get my hands on the PS2 game 'Twinkle Star Sprites: La Petite Princesse'.

Ikaruga: While I'm not a huge fan of this one, it's still pretty creative. It's a dot eater where you switch the colors of your ship to absorb bullets of the same color, and you can use them to power up a multilaser.

Radirgy: Quirky, cute, and fun, this game is somewhat hard to describe. Basically you have 4 tools: Your shot, a sword, as shield, and your ABS field. Use your shot for crowd control only, pretty much-- your sword and shield are your main weapons. Use your sword and shield to cancel bullets out to power up your ABS field, which is your 'bomb' of sorts, to absorb as many bullets as possible. This will charge up your multiplier, which obviously will boost your score as you fire away and clear out enemies. I love this game.

Karous: Made by the same company as Radirgy, this game has a dark vibe to it, while still managing to be cute at the same time, but in a different way. In the game, you have pretty much the same tools at your disposal as Radirgy, but they work differently. In this game you can level up your Sword, Shield, and Shot by using them a lot, and they become more powerful as you go. Really cool.

Giga Wing/Giga Wing 2: Insanely high scores (if all you have at the end of stage 1 is a billion points, you're doing it wrong :P), you get a reflect barrier that lets you reflect bullets back at enemies. Hard as hell, but fun.

Mars Matrix: Go play it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRhFYV4-pBQ) Kind of like Giga Wing, but better. It's a lot harder, but it's very nicely done.

Vasara and Vasara 2: Also nothing related to Touhou, but they're pretty fun. Give them a try.

Mushihimesama Futari: If you have an Xbox 360 and the money for the game, you have no excuse. :P



Come to think of it, the closest you'll get to Touhou without the game being a Touhou ripoff are doujin shooters, pretty much.

Try these doujins:
XOP: Fucking amazing game. You can pick 2 different shot types at the beginning of the game, which you can switch to and from at any time. The pixel art of the game is fantastic, and you can adjust the difficulty to your liking.

Trouble Witches: Kind of like a horizontal Touhou. Loli characters, happy go lucky style, fun gameplay. Definitely worth playing.

Little Red Barrel: A Diary of Little Aviator: Don't let the cutesy graphics fool you. This game is great.

PatriotDark: Kind of close to Touhou in difficulty, but that's where the similarities end (unless playing as the 'Suika' ship counts :P). This game is closer to DoDonPachi+ESPGaluda when it comes to gameplay.

nomltest: Minimalistic graphics, but you score by grazing and cancelling bullets. Pretty fun.

Cho Ren Sha 68K: Just go play it. Seriously. <3

Meglilo: Mahou Shoujo Robot Loli shmup! You can collect different powerups that change your options' shot type, and you can warp out of the way of bullets! Pretty fun.

Dreampainter and Clannada: Built on the same engine, these games are based on eroge/anime series Kanon and Clannad, respectively. While not incredibly hard, their scoring systems are surprisingly fun, and the games are as cute as can be. While being nothing particularly special, I still have a special place in my heart for these two.

Anything by x.x: Heavily influenced by CAVE shmups, x.x's games are all on the easy side (but he has difficulties that are also pretty hard, too. He's got some cute loli-styled ones in there. I strongly recommend Blue Wish Resurrection/Plus.

rRootage: Minimalistic graphics, but the difficulty is pretty on-par with Touhou. There are 4 modes to choose from: Normal, PSY (based on Psyvariar), IKA (like Ikaruga, where you switch colors and absorb those of like color, and GW (based on Giga Wing, where you reflect bullets back at the enemy).

Guxt: A very minimalistic shmup made by Pixel, the genius who brought us Cave Story. It's a pretty easy game, but it's a piece of art in its own way, just like everything Pixel makes.




That should keep you busy for now. :P Get in there!

Also: Please keep in mind that just because a shmup is mind-numbingly hard, it doesn't mean it can't be a blast to play at the same time!

EDIT: Shmup names bolded for quick reference.

EDIT2: Added a couple more.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 07, 2009, 09:35:00 AM
Couple more notable doujin games that resemble CAVE--

1) Eden's Aegis, by x.x. It's not finished, so only Original mode is playable. Gets brutal from stage 3 onward. It's score or die; thankfully, I think the scoring system is very fun. Extends and bombs are pretty generous too (which was the source of some contention).

2) Patriot Dark, by Temperance Lance. Also another good CAVE clone. Borrows elements from, I believe, Ketsui, DoDonPachi, and Espgaluda. There are also multiple difficulty modes, so you can find something comfortable.

3) Stella Vanity, by Feathered Ether. Not finished, but fun to dick around in. Very pretty (that's about all I can say since I haven't spent much time with it).

Both of the above are completely free.

4) Crimzon Clover (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8225336), whenever it comes out.


As far as streaming is concerned, I can't say anything in specific with regards to Mushihime-sama, but in general, arcade shooters are more aggressive, and thus require an aggressive playstyle from the player to counter. If you are too passive, you'll probably get overwhelmed. If you take it slow and tap-dodge your way to an edge of the screen, you'll probably get walled in; bullets in arcade shooters are too quick and intense for that. You just have to make larger movements (although not always), and start planning on when you're going to cut back and move in the other direction way sooner than when you're at the edge of the screen. Knowing where and when the enemies spawn (use the stage backgrounds) plays a part in this.

Also don't be afraid to utilize more screen space--move up. If you watch a superplay of an arcade shooter, the player is almost never always at the bottom of the screen.

Herd bullets.

Bomb.

Watching a few superplays (http://super-play.co.uk/) might be a good way of seeing how players approach arcade shooters.


I sometimes wonder how much you can carry on from Touhou to arcade shooters and vice versa.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 07, 2009, 09:41:26 AM
I sometimes wonder how much you can carry on from Touhou to arcade shooters and vice versa.

I definitely can't. I'm either in a Touhou mindset or an arcade mindset, and can't really operate well when I'm not in the right mindset. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 07, 2009, 09:58:55 AM
I also forgot to mention Death Smiles. If you have a J360, like loli, and like CAVE, then this is a definite pick-up. The loli-factor in this one is higher than in any other shooter I can currently think of--higher than Touhou, even; it can send half of Shmups Forum into a fit.

I definitely can't. I'm either in a Touhou mindset or an arcade mindset, and can't really operate well when I'm not in the right mindset. :P

Me too. The pace and intensity between the two is just so different that is changes how you play almost completely. Back when I was first getting into arcade shooters, I couldn't understand why so many people on Shmups Forum couldn't get into Touhou (barring the ship vs character thing), but now I do. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 07, 2009, 10:06:06 AM
I also forgot to mention Death Smiles. If you have a J360, like loli, and like CAVE, then this is a definite pick-up. The loli-factor in this one is higher than in any other shooter I can currently think of--higher than Touhou, even; it can send half of Shmups Forum into a fit.

Oddly enough, that same half will still play it because it's a CAVE game. :P The Shmups forum crowd is funny and overdramatic when it comes to little girls in their shmups, as if it compromises their masculinity or something. That said, it has to say something when the Mushihimesama series is one of the most popular games there!

I'd love to play this game, but I don't have a J-360. If I did, I'd get it right away.


Quote
Me too. The pace and intensity between the two is just so different that is changes how you play almost completely. Back when I was first getting into arcade shooters, I couldn't understand why so many people on Shmups Forum couldn't get into Touhou (barring the ship vs character thing), but now I do. :V

It's kind of sad, too. I'd love to see some of the pros like PROMETHEUS or Plasmo give the Touhou series a go, since it's kind of depressing to see Heartbeam at the top of literally every Touhou scoreboard-- not that that's a bad thing on his part, but there's virtually no competition for the poor guy. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 07, 2009, 10:16:52 AM
If I'm not feeling too cheap and finally splurge on a J360 and paraphernalia in a month or so, I'll probably pick up Death Smiles; used, preferably.

There was a legendary thread at Shmups Forum over Reco's age. I think it started out as the Mushihime-sama anticipation thread and derailed into that, but I don't remember. It was before my time. :V

You've got some Asian players (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Touhou_players) like ASAPIN and ISO who score run in both Touhou and arcade shooters. And they do very well at both. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 07, 2009, 10:26:58 AM
WARNING: A HUGE BATTLESHIP "MEGA WALL OF TEXT" IS APPROACHING FAST

Seriously, please read all of this, I took a lot of time digging through my folders for recommendations!

I read it all, refreshed an hour later or so, saw more... couple my ass. I promise I'll read it all though, and will give serious consideration to them all...thank you >=). I can read more text from anybody than they can bother to write to me I promise =). I'd read it all and research all the games listed now except it's 2am, and I'm busy at 7am. sleep should come soon (normal for me actually, but I never really l2'd fall asleep, so I just get used to it and don't bother trying until too late). Anyway, I don't know what that video of mars matrix is supposed to accomplish to be honest. I'm Canadian myself, and I respect and admire several American friends of mine. but if there is one accent in the entire world that absolutely drives me nuts. It's that southern American accent. No offence to them, no racism intended... I can't help it! I just *HATE* the sound of that accent! =(... I assure you, no Canadian I have ever come across has sounded like that. PROBABLY nothing to do with why you linked that video, but man... I couldn't help but notice nothing but nails on a chalkboard with that 'Canadian' (*cough*HAHAHA MYASS*cough*) accent with that video.... I'll still think about trying the game though.

You seemed more concerned about the loli-subject on your pre-edit post, which you've seemed to have abolished since. Which I'm ok with, just an observation, interesting how the tone of your reply changed, that's all.

As for Aisha's reply:

I looked at Patriot dark before, didn't interest me. Never heard of eden's eigis. was super-interested in trying stella vanity, was going to, forgot the name, tried to research it.. and the site I heard about it disappeared. (some shmup site. shoot the core I think. Has it been revived? I don't know, can't find it... I juuuuuuuuust discovered it when it seemed to die, seemed REALLY good for aspiring shmup newbie fans like myself).

Thank you for reiterating Stella Vanity to me, I forgot the name and I knew I was interested in trying it. I'll check out Eden's edge too (though I dunno when, Matsuri got me a lifetime's worth!).

I understand shooter games and touhou shooters are different. I've personally never played a shooter game harder than touhou lunatic for pretty much my entire life. I understand there are many harder, so I have much to learn. My desire isn't to become the best, or to brag about my mad skills. I just enjoy a hard game because commercial games in general seem to lose their difficulty more and more as developers discover that increasing market size and making games easier increases profits. BUT, Touhou is actually pretty damn similar to what I want in a game. I'm not interested in bragging about how good I am or posting top scores. I simply enjoy completing a game, as hard as possible without being 'cheap' or luckiest. Touhou fulfills this for me pretty good even though I know there are other games more difficult that aren't cheap or luckiest.

BUT. Touhou to me is super fun because:

1: As much as I don't care about graphics (cuz zun art is the best right? =P) Touhou bullet patterns really make me happy with how pretty they are. Though SA/UFO patterns seem less pretty to me. Don't defend those games please, I just don't see symmetrical beauty in the spellcards contained in those games as much.

2: Slow bullets with high bullet counts interest me more than fast bullets with low bullet count. Easier or harder is inconsequential to me. It just makes me feel more elated to accomplish passing them after (and hence I enjoy it more) if the bullet count is higher. In addition, I find slower = less stage memorization, which I don't enjoy.

3: I like the generous supply of lives in Touhou. I understand official scorings care about score and not lives spent. I enjoy the personal challenge of spending less lives and bombs.

You guys seem to feel like it's some dirty habit best left to secrecy regarding 1ccing or surviving a game and not scoring. This I simply do not understand. I don't give a rat's ass if some other guy can play a game better than me. I simply want to enjoy the game and get further, or play harder games if I beat it more and more. The scoring system in a shooter game is something even the designer (obviously) felt important, so I don't criticize your desire to excel in that department, I just don't get it. Despite that, bombing in Touhou (to me) feels dirty regardless of the score repercussions. It's just unsatisfactory for me to destroy a portion of a boss fight by bombing through it, I like to confront my weaknesses, not avoid them...At least when it's for leisure and nobody gets hurt!.

ANYWAYYY.. Thank you for your input. I value all of it.

GAH, more content:
Quote
I also forgot to mention Death Smiles. If you have a J360, like loli, and like CAVE, then this is a definite pick-up. The loli-factor in this one is higher than in any other shooter I can currently think overeager than Touhou, even; it can send half of Shmups Forum into a fit.

I've seen death smiles. I don't see how it's more loli-esque from what I've seen. BUT.... I wasn't very interested in trying because the music from what I've heard (on youtube so far that is) was absolutely horrible. I have a hard time not /wristing after hearing it. I appreciate gameplay in a game over all else, but I'm sorry, I'm a bit of a music freak too as much of a gamer, and...and... ********UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH***** MAKE IT STOOOOOOP...

nuff' said

As for shooter nuts and loli-shooters. I too have noticed a significant level of disgust regarding shooter nuts and loli shooters like Touhou. It's childish in my opinion ( just like my own preference towards the loli if I wasn't aware that I didn't know why I did, just a matter of probability for me), I think that many shooter fans are more interested in the genre for the e-peen stroking involved with records and such than enjoying the games. Not everyone, and I could be wrong regarding ANYONE... But it just comes across as such for me, personal pet-peeve you brought up for me >=P.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 07, 2009, 10:38:18 AM
(some shmup site. shoot the core I think. Has it been revived? I don't know, can't find it... I juuuuuuuuust discovered it when it seemed to die, seemed REALLY good for aspiring shmup newbie fans like myself).

Shoot the Core is dead. Unfortunately. People at Shmups Forum are trying to revive it, but I'm not exactly sure how that's coming along.

Quote
(cuz zun art is the best right? =P)

Actually, yes. :P I love ZUN's art.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 07, 2009, 10:46:58 AM
Actually, yes. :P I love ZUN's art.

You're a screw-ball.

No seriously. Zun's ordinary art is bad IMO. I think he would admit he's a bad artist himself. But he has a gift when it comes to mathematical art IMO. I think his character appearances look silly, but his bullet patterns look mesmerizing... I should goto bet. Fore-head is difficult to lift off keyboard.. Heavy...Need to work in 4 hours...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 07, 2009, 11:00:01 AM
I read it all, refreshed an hour later or so, saw more... couple my ass. I promise I'll read it all though, and will give serious consideration to them all...thank you >=). I can read more text from anybody than they can bother to write to me I promise =). I'd read it all and research all the games listed now except it's 2am, and I'm busy at 7am. sleep should come soon (normal for me actually, but I never really l2'd fall asleep, so I just get used to it and don't bother trying until too late). Anyway, I don't know what that video of mars matrix is supposed to accomplish to be honest. I'm Canadian myself, and I respect and admire several American friends of mine. but if there is one accent in the entire world that absolutely drives me nuts. It's that southern American accent. No offence to them, no racism intended... I can't help it! I just *HATE* the sound of that accent! =(... I assure you, no Canadian I have ever come across has sounded like that. PROBABLY nothing to do with why you linked that video, but man... I couldn't help but notice nothing but nails on a chalkboard with that 'Canadian' (*cough*HAHAHA MYASS*cough*) accent with that video.... I'll still think about trying the game though.

I seriously did add only two or three after my edit. :P

Rob (xoxak) is from Alaska if I remember right. I don't really think that's the way he normally talks, just the way he talks for his reviews, which are meant to be funny. There was really no point to me linking the video, aside from 'Go play Mars Matrix' being Rob's catchphrase.

As for the rest of the post, I agree. People who play shmups just to brag about their elite skills piss me off. There's nothing wrong with posting your accomplishments for all to see and whatnot, but bragging about it just deserves a kick in the balls.

However:
Quote
You guys seem to feel like it's some dirty habit best left to secrecy regarding 1ccing or surviving a game and not scoring. This I simply do not understand. I don't give a rat's ass if some other guy can play a game better than me. I simply want to enjoy the game and get further, or play harder games if I beat it more and more. The scoring system in a shooter game is something even the designer (obviously) felt important, so I don't criticize your desire to excel in that department, I just don't get it. Despite that, bombing in Touhou (to me) feels dirty regardless of the score repercussions. It's just unsatisfactory for me to destroy a portion of a boss fight by bombing through it, I like to confront my weaknesses, not avoid them...At least when it's for leisure and nobody gets hurt!.

See, there's a part you're missing here. Playing for score is half of the fun in the game, and an effective way to gauge how you improve in the game overall. There's nothing outright wrong with not playing for score, but that's good chunk of the game that you're missing out on! Not only that, it adds a layer of competition to the game for those of us who like that kind of thing. There's nothing wrong with 1CCing a game playing for survival, but once you do that, why not try playing for score after that? It adds a whole new layer of replayability to a game. I'm just the kind of person who likes to play for score as I learn the game. Kind of like killing two birds with one stone.

Now it's my turn to go to bed. It's 6 am! I just had to fall asleep at 9PM to wake up at 2. Curse my lack of need for long periods of sleep.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 07, 2009, 03:42:28 PM
Azinth: sorry, for I can't decide on which game of the Strikers series is the best.. I must play the others :p (it seems that the first Strikers didn't have the variable point value for gold bars, though)

Matsuri: if people want to exercise their ability to avoid spending bombs, I'd suggest Dodonpachi (and Giga Wing, to some extent). If people want to be helped on getting rid of the no-bombing mindset, i'd like to add Varth, Raiden Fighters Jet, and Battle Garegga/Armed Police Batrider (and ESP Ra.De, both for survival, and for score -- I have to learn more about when do other players intentionally use bombs). One thing that's funny to me, is that..
- MoF seemed to give lots of bombing opportunities during stages, like Garegga/Batrider
- in UFO, you summon an UFO that gathers the items on the screen, and then must be shot down (before it can escape with them). In RFJ, before you enter the Special Medal mode, you use your slave ship to direct floating point medals towards other (floating/grounded) medals in order to lump them together (floating medals will automatically be drawn into the medal you're controlling through your slave ship), and then you collect them when they're at their maximum level
- Lotus Land Story (and Highly Responsive to Prayers) rewards you by using your bombs well. In LLS, items collected through bombs will be worth twice their normal value (remember, the game offers you quite a lot of lives); in HRtP, bombs help you hit the tiles on the screen, increasing your chain hits (it's even useful for survival, since the score will yield you at least one life. if you can keep progressing without dying, should you reach Sariel with 6 or 7 lives, it doesn't matter if he/she takes some of you; the boss fight will become gradually easier due to rank decrease)



edit:
Ghaleon: most games have elaborate scoring mechanics that help differentiate them from each other, besides the game's feel (backstory, backgrounds, bullets, characters, enemy designs, playing mechanics, attack patterns, stage designs, musics, sound effects..). Adapting yourself to said scoring mechanics as well will (depending of the game) feel rewarding enough, some times more addictive to just playing it for survival, but some other times, restrictive enough to survive.
Anyways, shmups' scoring mechanics are made to reward players that play well (so, instead of just thinking of the score numbers, think of what the game creators intended you to do. Did they offer you alternative scoring ways, that are more lenient towards novice/intermediate score runners? For most of the times, the answer will be 'yes'.), said criteria (depending on the developer) may sometimes differ from the player's (for example, a game may not cripple your score if you die/bomb, and may even reward you for doing so responsibly; some scoring tricks are really rewarding and for little effort), or not. But it either makes the game more difficult, or adds an alternate way of enjoying them. I personally think that this alternate way has more details to it (there may be exceptions, though; can't think of any atm), that (like I said before) help make the game more distinct.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 08, 2009, 01:29:20 AM
Come to think of it, LLS is the only Touhou shmup that actually encourages bombing, as all point items that get drawn to you are worth twice as much, and there is no penalty for using them. I don't consider HRtP as a shmup. :P

As for intentionally using bombs in other shmups, I often use my bomb/laser charging to power up my weapon if I die. It also kills the 5th boss wicked fast.

One thing I like about many Raizing shmups is that you pretty much have unlimited bombs at your disposal as long as you can keep collecting bomb items. Even if you don't have a full bomb in stock, you can use what you're building up as a bomb, though it won't be as effective.

Also the end of this month is coming so sloooooowly damn it I want my Mushi Futari now ;;

EDIT: Expanding on the whole 'score' topic-- as shadowbringer said, scoring systems are often what differentiates them from other shmups from the same company.

A common criticism for shmups overall is that they 'all look and play the same'. Consider board games for a moment. They all play the same, don't they? After all, you're just moving pieces around until someone wins. That's exciting, isn't it? Of course not. What differentiates one board game from another is how you play. The same goes for shmups. While shmups that come from the same company commonly look the same, some of which even using the same bullets (most Psikyo games use the same bullets, just different colors), it's their unique scoring systems that set them apart, and really help you appreciate the effort the developers put into the game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 09, 2009, 01:01:43 AM
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5030/gb2e.th.jpg) (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/gb2e.jpg/)

HELL YES UNEXPECTED MASSIVE BREAKTHROUGH!!  Seeing that stage 6 boss in something other than a savestate/creditfeeding run was simultaneously inspiring and horrifying.

And on a related note, I wonder what lgb has been up to lately.  He hasn't updated any of his scoreboards for a few weeks, either here or on Shmups Forum.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 09, 2009, 01:22:32 AM
IRL stuff, possibly.

And yeah, that's a pretty sweet score you got there! Definitely Shmups forum scoreboard material!

I had a bit of a breakthrough, myself!

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/Mobile%20Uploads/1108092012.jpg) (http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Momijitsuki/)

Steadily gettin' closer to my 100mil goal!

EDIT: Made it to the Arrange Mode TLB again, didn't even get hit until the second phase where the graceful music kicks in! God, I love this game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 09, 2009, 03:12:47 AM
Holy shit.

I just 2cc'd Hibachi.

As in, I only used one continue the whole fight.

Holy shit.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: KOA on November 09, 2009, 07:04:42 PM
I hate all of you for being so pro at shmups. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 09, 2009, 07:47:11 PM
Holy shit.

I just 2cc'd Hibachi.

As in, I only used one continue the whole fight.

Holy shit.
One day, he'll die a miserable death to your awesome weapon :V

Makes me want to try other shmups when I get my computer back....going from Hard to Lunatic is probably going to be more painful than my average dentist visit.

How hard is it to retain my skill after not playing for over a week? I was damn uncomfortable with everything for the first 10 minutes after not playing for 3 days.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 09, 2009, 08:36:33 PM
I hate all of you for being so pro at shmups. :(

What are you talking about :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 09, 2009, 10:08:54 PM
Well.. I'm back after my suspension.
After I got to Hibachi, I stopped playing Dodonpachi all together... then I decide to come back and do a random run. I really don't know what to say. It seems I've gotten bored of it or perhaps I was just out of practice- but the bosses seem to suck even more.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 09, 2009, 10:40:27 PM
ESP Ra.De.'s more fun than DoDonPachi, anyway.

Play that.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 10, 2009, 01:01:30 AM
I hate all of you for being so pro at shmups. :(

Didn't your custom title used to say you 1cc'd Mushihimesama? ???

But no, I can't even second loop legitimately. All I can do is 1cc the first loop.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: KOA on November 10, 2009, 02:15:33 AM
Didn't your custom title used to say you 1cc'd Mushihimesama? ???

But no, I can't even second loop legitimately. All I can do is 1cc the first loop.

All modes except Ultra. Also, you're pro for even 1CCing the first loop. I can't even come close and for that, I still hate you all for being so pro at shmups. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 10, 2009, 05:50:11 AM
Holy shit.

I just 2cc'd Hibachi.

As in, I only used one continue the whole fight.

Holy shit.

Just to give some perspective to make the 2CC even more awesome: Clearing Hibachi with 2 credits means that you've done it with about the same amount of resources as you would have available in a legitimate run. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: ^^flandre^^ on November 11, 2009, 10:26:16 AM
For those who haven't heard of or tried it, Samidare is pretty cool.

Random video of the extra stage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hps4X9_f4k)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sodium on November 11, 2009, 10:34:20 PM
Samidare's main game is too easy. The extra is where it's at. =3

And yeah, I'm trying to clear the Extra stage.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 11, 2009, 11:04:29 PM
Gave Darius II and Darius Gaiden a try today. Really liking them, too.

i always wanted a thing called tuna sashimi
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 11, 2009, 11:34:29 PM
A few years ago I remember reading that ZUN liked Darius Gaiden, so I tried it out in MAME. It was neat--almost eerie, actually. Unfortunately the music was buggy, which is a shame because I was loving the first stage music, so I stopped.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 11, 2009, 11:35:37 PM
All modes except Ultra. Also, you're pro for even 1CCing the first loop. I can't even come close and for that, I still hate you all for being so pro at shmups. :(

In actuality- The first loop of Dodonpachi isn't as hard as you make it out to be. After about 2 weeks of practice, I was able to 1cc it consistently with only losing 2-3 lives. (About 90% of my 1cc's are with 3 lives remaining) The only parts on the first loop that can really make me struggle are tiny bits of stage 4, the latter half of stage 5 and it's boss (stupid walls) and that awful final boss. (lolincrediblyfastlasersthatarehardtosee)

A good amount of difficulty comes from the lack of a visible hitbox- I would have A LOT more confidence for dodging attacks. As for the second loop.... it seems more or less like a memorization fest.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 12, 2009, 02:05:36 AM
A few years ago I remember reading that ZUN liked Darius Gaiden, so I tried it out in MAME. It was neat--almost eerie, actually. Unfortunately the music was buggy, which is a shame because I was loving the first stage music, so I stopped.

Try it again now. It played flawlessly for me, and it's really growing on me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 12, 2009, 02:28:03 AM
Oh, I gave it a credit about an hour ago. I figured that with a new computer and many builds of MAME later, the game might work better. It did, and I was pleasantly surprised. I also watched Icarus' 11 million superplay and loved how surreal it was; I blame the awesome soundtrack and boss design. :P

EDIT: I want autofire.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 12, 2009, 03:08:40 AM
Mine is autofire by default. How weird.

But yeah, I'm loving this. G-Darius is cool and all, but I haven't figured out the scoring system just yet. I think I like Darius Gaiden more. Not only is the music hypnotizing, but I have to say it's got to have some of the best graphics I've ever seen for its time. :)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 12, 2009, 03:08:56 AM
Alright, I've been reworking my strategy for coin grabbing, and I'm chaining a little bit more consistently.  One run I got to 19 again (bleh, I thought for sure I'd surpass it) and got to stage 4 with 415k, which is awesome for me (then I game-overed before the goddamn blimps, fuck my inconsistent skill).

I also gave the second loop a try, since I hadn't bothered with it much and wanted to see what it's like.  And oh Jesus this is some hardcore shit.  I think my survival rate was about, uh... 40 seconds per credit.  Maybe a little less. :V 
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 12, 2009, 03:12:33 AM
Psikyo games are intense. I recently got a friend at college into shmups, and I've been showing him superplays and stuff. The other day I got him to play Gunbird 2, and he was all 'Hey this game is pretty easy!'... and then he got to stage 2. His opinion changed pretty fast. :P

Then I said 'You think that's hard?' and brought up the Dragon Blaze no-miss 1CC superplay I downloaded.

I think I scared him away from Psikyo shmups. :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 12, 2009, 03:16:02 AM
Mine is autofire by default. How weird.

But yeah, I'm loving this. G-Darius is cool and all, but I haven't figured out the scoring system just yet. I think I like Darius Gaiden more. Not only is the music hypnotizing, but I have to say it's got to have some of the best graphics I've ever seen for its time. :)

Mine (dariusgj.zip) has autofire, but it's nowhere near as rapid as the one used in Icarus' run. I can't seem to find a switch or option for it in the Service Menu to get it to go that fast; I wonder what he did...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 12, 2009, 07:06:10 PM
Where there is talk of Darius, I appear.

Yeah, I prefer Darius Gaiden over G-Darius as well, both in terms of aesthetics (oh god the soundtrack) and general gameplay/design. G-D does admittedly do some clever stuff with its stages/bosses, but DG provides a fantastic, more compelling, less-gimmicky shmup experience IMO. DG's 28 stages also > G-D's 15, though the stage splits in the latter compensate for this to an extent.

I've played a fair few of the other games (Darius I, II, Force and Twin), though not to the same extent as DG/G-D. DII is probably my next favourite behind the big two.

In all the years I've known the series, I've never watched more than 10 seconds of any highscore/superplay runs etc. May sound weird, but I don't want any parts of the games spoiled for me by seeing things like safespots or tricks. I prefer to suck at them in my own way.

Also, the older games had "A HUGE BATTLESHIP" for the boss text as opposed to DG's/G-D's "A HUGE BATTLE SHIP". Just throwing that out there.

Mine (dariusgj.zip) has autofire, but it's nowhere near as rapid as the one used in Icarus' run. I can't seem to find a switch or option for it in the Service Menu to get it to go that fast; I wonder what he did...

I remember the Saturn version had an input code that enabled an upgraded rapidfire. Not sure if that's any help.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 12, 2009, 07:15:47 PM
The one I'm using is dariusg.zip. I was gonna tell you last night, but right as I pressed 'submit' Fate went into Maintenance Mode :P

This is a pretty great game, I've been playing a lot today, steadily working my way through. Folding Fan just made me its bitch. :(

What's the best order of stages to go with?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 12, 2009, 07:42:55 PM
This is a pretty great game, I've been playing a lot today, steadily working my way through. Folding Fan just made me its bitch. :(

What's the best order of stages to go with?

Assuming by 'best' you mean 'easiest'... it pretty much boils down to which bosses you'd rather face. I'd personally start with A+B, then D/E is really a free choice (D has Folding Fan but without the bullshit lightning attack that the Zone F version has, E has Electric Fan who basically has one threatening attack). Whichever one you pick, make sure you go to either G (from D) or I (from E) afterwards, because Prickly Angler is MUCH easier than Neon Light Illusion.

For stage 5, stay the hell away from Zone M. It's a giant boss stage and Titanic Lance will turn you inside out. I personally prefer to face Double Dealer over Fatty Glutton, so I'd pick L if coming from G, or N if coming from I.

For stage 6, Deadly Crescent can be pretty easy if your bombs are powered up enough (the homing missiles will basically keep his hair in check), so I'd favour him over Crusty Hammer. That means going to Q if coming from L or S if coming from N.

If you're coming from Q, you're going to have to face either Risk Storage (V) or Vermilion Coronatus (W) as final bosses. It's been a while since I went against Risk Storage, but VC is pretty rough and I'd recommend staying the hell away from him. If you're coming from S, you've got either Hysteric Empress (X) or Odious Trident (Y). Again, it's been too long since facing OT, but I'd go with him on the basis that the Empress is also pretty vicious. She's probably easier than VC though.

tl;dr - A,B,D,G,L,Q,V or A,B,E,I,N,S,Y.

Note - If you prefer E to D, you might want to start with A+C if you can constantly get every red pickup before King Fossil. Having the slightly-upgraded Wave shot with the two blue shots either side makes him about 10x easier for some reason.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 12, 2009, 08:09:51 PM
I just love the boss names in Darius Gaiden. Speaking of which, is it necessary to worry about the rank by powering up your forward shot too much?

I finally managed to finish the first stage of Battle Garegga with 500,000 points last night; still missing 100,000 from the boss, somewhere. I also need to work on clearing the parking lot at the beginning of the stage..

The one I'm using is dariusg.zip. I was gonna tell you last night, but right as I pressed 'submit' Fate went into Maintenance Mode :P

Yeah that scared me. When I went to check the forums I was met with a 403: Forbidden error. :D

I'll try dariusg.zip when I get home, but it's the parent of the copy I'm using, so it's probably going to be the same. I was probably looking at a replay of the Saturn version like A Huge Battleship suggested.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 12, 2009, 08:29:13 PM
I just love the boss names in Darius Gaiden.

QFT. Awesome boss names are practically a trademark of the Darius series, and DG does have some of the best.

Speaking of which, is it necessary to worry about the rank by powering up your forward shot too much?

I honestly have no idea. My philosophy is to pick up every red power-up I see, regardless of the impact it has on the game's difficulty. Might explain why most of the final bosses usually stomp all over me.

I'll try dariusg.zip when I get home, but it's the parent of the copy I'm using, so it's probably going to be the same. I was probably looking at a replay of the Saturn version like A Huge Battleship suggested.

Actually, if it's the replay from here (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=173&start=40), it seems it was done using MAME. If that's the case, I have no idea how he enabled it (the workings of MAME are generally beyond me, plus I always play using the 'default' autofire or whatever you want to call it).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on November 12, 2009, 09:25:32 PM
I don't get to enjoy Darius Gaiden for the moment - my Saturn A/V cord is missing ;_;

Where there is talk of Darius, I appear.
Saw that coming <3

Yep, Darius Gaiden definitely had one grand set of sound tracks, and the graphics is very nice. G-Darius ones weirded me out =_=.

I remember the Saturn version had an input code that enabled an upgraded rapidfire. Not sure if that's any help.
Oh yes, it did had a button sequence to press, not to mention Extra Difficulties (Easiest or Super Easy, and Maniac, as far as I remember) and ⑨ Credits (originally 3).

Not really helpful for shots that shoot only 5 instances at a time - all 5 shots will be fired consecutively, leaving you defenseless for more or less half a second. This goes for the Final Level of your shot (those with Red Flames of Wave, after the large green waves) and the laser. I never got to like lasers despite their piercing ability.

So rather than using the very fast/upgraded rapidfire, I use the default firing rate and combo it by alternatingly pressing A and B buttons on Saturn's joypad - even blue shots kill like heck.

Speaking of which, is it necessary to worry about the rank by powering up your forward shot too much?
Not really, unless you have trouble navigating around the stage or get confused of your large shots, the fishes you're shooting at and enemy bullets... wait, that could ever likely happen on the very fast rapidshot.

I recommend staying in the green wave tier as much as possible. Then again,
I honestly have no idea. My philosophy is to pick up every red power-up I see.

With that, I'm definitely anticipating for Darius Burst +w+
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 13, 2009, 04:20:30 AM
Thanks for the tips, and yes, that was the Darius Gaiden replay I saw. The more I listen to this game's music, the more I'm reminded of The Fifth Element.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 13, 2009, 05:26:55 AM
Any luck with dariusg.zip?

@A Huge Battleship: All right, I'll go for one of those paths then. Also, is it just me, or do I seem to deal more damage with the three-wide basic shot against the first boss than the 2-wide laser shot?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 13, 2009, 06:15:43 AM
Nope. dariusg.zip has the same regular autofire. I think the faster autofire that Icarus used in his run was just a standard autofire option in some MAME builds.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 13, 2009, 07:48:58 AM
@A Huge Battleship: All right, I'll go for one of those paths then. Also, is it just me, or do I seem to deal more damage with the three-wide basic shot against the first boss than the 2-wide laser shot?

It wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty certain you deal more damage against a boss with the 4-wide laser shot (and probably the 3-wide as well) than the 1-wide wave shot.

Not really helpful for shots that shoot only 5 instances at a time - all 5 shots will be fired consecutively, leaving you defenseless for more or less half a second.

It's a similar story with some of the earlier games, only you're left defenceless for even longer because of the huge horizontal screen size.

With that, I'm definitely anticipating for Darius Burst +w+

Any new Darius game is obviously good news, though I kinda wish it wasn't for PSP. Also, it needs more zones:

(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/5377/darburzones.jpg)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 13, 2009, 08:12:00 AM
Yay, just bought Seirensen, Hisoutensoku, and Grimoire of Marisa. :D

I'm sad that Paletweb got rid of their point system though.

EDIT: Managed to finish Stage 1 of Battle Garegga with 500,000 points, again. But this time, I played the stage in its entirety instead of resuming a save state at the boss. Fucked up and killed the body turrets accidentally though, which resulted in me panicking and taking out a propeller with my piercing shot instead of my option shot.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on November 13, 2009, 09:41:10 AM
@A Huge Battleship: Also, is it just me, or do I seem to deal more damage with the three-wide basic shot against the first boss than the 2-wide laser shot?
3-wide basic shots definitely do more damage than 2-wide lasers.
If I were you, I'd rather get the last Red PowerUp if you're going to Zone B, or else you'll reach the boss there with 4-wide laser shot than the 1-wave. (though maybe it's just my laser hate kicking in =.=)

It's a similar story with some of the earlier games, only you're left defenceless for even longer because of the huge horizontal screen size.
Yeah, a huge screen even flatter and longer than 16:9 screens xD. Now that I remember, earlier Darius games only had 4 instances for all shot levels. Darius II has editable rapidshot rate (default: 1/100 second)
Very fast rapidshot with 4 shot instances is only ever fast-killing at close-up battle against the fishies anyway.

Any new Darius game is obviously good news, though I kinda wish it wasn't for PSP. Also, it needs more zones.
I'm good with the PSP, probably because of the thought of having a portable Darius game.
... Wait, PSP? Now that I think about its 16:9 screen, that sounds like longer horizontal screens again, though not as very long as the older ones I guess.

Yeah, more Zones means more fishy awesomeness! This seems less than what G-Darius has to offer. Still 5 stages in one run, so I guess it's not half-bad.

They have taken something of a (DS) Space Invaders Extreme type of approach on zone's difficulty -- Easier stages at the top, hellfire at the bottom (and probably the best good ending).
... Though the difficulty is already applicable in Darius Gaiden (fishes below has tougher skin and bullets than those at the top).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 13, 2009, 12:35:53 PM
Yeah, more Zones means more fishy awesomeness! This seems less than what G-Darius has to offer. Still 5 stages in one run, so I guess it's not half-bad.

It'll be okay if they put in mid-stage path splits again, though it's still going to feel weird having no route choice after clearing the first stage.

... Though the difficulty is already applicable in Darius Gaiden (fishes below has tougher skin and bullets than those at the top).

(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4655/gthing3.gif)

Great Thing (boss of the absolute top final stage) would like to have a word with you.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on November 13, 2009, 01:04:27 PM
It'll be okay if they put in mid-stage path splits again, though it's still going to feel weird having no route choice after clearing the first stage.
I guess path splits are fine.
Eh, who knows? maybe there's a surprise in-between those zones xD (then again, I'm just imagining things)

Great Thing (boss of the absolute top final stage) would like to have a word with you.
Ah, Great Thing! Apologies, I almost forgot about you. It's just that my attention was all on Storm Bringer Causer.
*googles for image*
(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/7365/scauser114tt.jpg)
(the Bringer was unintentional. I really remember his name as "Storm <a word that brings or delivers>" until I searched for his pic, aheheh 8D)

Actually, I was referring to stages before the Final Zones, but it seems I didn't make it clear >3<


 Aisha~, an additional info for what you asked:
Speaking of which, is it necessary to worry about the rank by powering up your forward shot too much?
 
Here, I was searching for what Darius Gaiden Extra is (wow, an official hack?), and kinda stumbled upon this info:
Quote from: tvtropes.org
Dynamic Difficulty: Powering up too much in Darius Gaiden will crank up the difficulty.
... eh, maybe it's not new, but just putting it here just in case. I'm not sure how much the difficulty adjustment is, so...

Oh Tuna, this is raising my urge to play Darius Gaiden, this time in no-powerup mode! >w<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 13, 2009, 01:39:23 PM
Ah, Great Thing! Apologies, I almost forgot about you. It's just that my attention was all on Storm Bringer Causer.
*googles for image*
(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/7365/scauser114tt.jpg)

Actually, I was referring to stages before the Final Zones, but it seems I didn't make it clear >3<

Heh, fair enough. Storm Causer is indeed a nasty son of a fish (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=415.msg159313#msg159313), though having him, Curious Chandelier and Odious Trident as the bottom 3 final bosses and Great Thing, Risk Storage and Vermilion Coronatus as the top 3 doesn't say much about whether the top or bottom is more difficult IMO. If you're talking about before the final stages, I guess you could be right, though I've never really noticed a huge difference myself.

Here, I was searching for what Darius Gaiden Extra is (wow, an official hack?)

DG Extra is just plain weird in that it starts you off in Zone T (renamed to A) for some reason, and it has the incredibly easy Zone A in place of the old Zone T. You also get the insane rapidfire as standard.

Oh Tuna, this is raising my urge to play Darius Gaiden, this time in no-powerup mode! >w<

Pfft, good luck. Ignoring all red power-ups might be feasible if it keeps the rank down, but going without bomb upgrades or shields is borderline suicidal.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 13, 2009, 02:35:31 PM
Quote from: A Huge Battleship
(http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af255/AHugeBattleship/Da1.jpg)

How'd you manage to get that far with only around 1,000,000 points? I got torn apart in Zone D by Folding Fan, and I had just about as much.  ???
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 13, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
How'd you manage to get that far with only around 1,000,000 points? I got torn apart in Zone D by Folding Fan, and I had just about as much.  ???

I'd already GAME OVER'ed by that point. It was on the PS2 Taito Collections version, and I just gave myself another credit & kept going to get some pictures.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 13, 2009, 05:04:13 PM
Oh. Usually arcade games will throw a number in the ones digit other than 0 if the player has continued. I thought you were going for some crazy low-score challenge :P

I think I might give Darius Gaiden and G-Darius a try on Taito Legends 2, which I bought a while ago just because it had Gekirindan in it :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on November 13, 2009, 05:06:57 PM
not including the other quotes for now. kinda confusing when used repeatedly -_-
Heh, fair enough. Storm Causer is indeed a nasty son of a fish (http://index.php?topic=415.msg159313#msg159313)...
 If you're talking about before the final stages, I guess you could be right, though I've never really noticed a huge difference myself.
xD OK. I have Storm Causer as one of my fav fishies, probably because:
>it could be the parent of Golden Ogre... See, they're the same type of fish xD. Or simply the thought of fighting the same type of fish at the first and the last stage. "I'll avenge your death, son!"
>behind it is the best Good Ending the Silver Hawks can ever achieve, IMO. "Peace were restored."

e.g. Electric Fan is harder than... name... the Zone B boss.
The harder other-colored fishes are packed at the bottom, if i remember correctly. Maybe it's just me.
... Let's leave it at that. I'm not too sure of it now either, and can't confirm it unless I get a hold of our Saturn's A/V cable :V

That oughtta give Silver Hawks a hard time. Weird.
I'll try that crazy continuous 28 Zones just for the heck of trying, but the very fast rapidfire as a standard is... say, unacceptable for me +_+.

Got nailed in again >3<.
I meant to say just not getting the red power-up ones, or get up to level3 of the basic shot only for mercy. I'm not sure how the difficulty is adjusted. If they're just additional small bullets that enemy fishes/ships shoot, then it's not worth the trouble.
... Though there's no harm in trying that totally no power up then no bomb, too xD

Oh. Usually arcade games will throw a number in the ones digit other than 0 if the player has continued. I thought you were going for some crazy low-score challenge :P
I was looking for that 1point score as well. Figures, if the credit is 0, two credits were used up then... or so I think.
Also, the Storm Causer screenshot I got and yours had 0 credits and no point in the ones digit of the score. I thought there was something else I missed.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 13, 2009, 05:11:34 PM
What do the golden powerup items do? I've seen and picked them up, but nothing seems to happen.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on November 13, 2009, 05:28:53 PM
It wipes out all the bullets and enemy fish/ships in the entire screen for the instant you get it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 13, 2009, 05:38:36 PM
someone please help me..
.. after hearing this talk about Darius, I got some interest on this series, but got a bad first impression after having played a Darius game for the old Mega Drive/Sega Genesis system (the Tiat Young ship seemed to be faster, and more powerful. Game played ok imho until you lost a life -- yes, I was a terrible player back then, and even though there were lots of shield item pickups, I would lose my shield by taking hits at various points of the game. Don't remember if I would credit-feed my way to both endings back then, I was like, a bit over 10 years old).
So, what Darius game(s) would you recommend me? (for comparison, I liked Gynoug and Battle Mania/Trouble Shooter, even though i wasn't a good player -- I mean, good enough to start liking shmups in general, as I previously thought that they were unfair and not much well designed due to how easy it is to lose a life on them)

Aisha:
what ship are you using, by the way? (I normally use Gain, since it's said that the Mahou ships minus Chitta have the best scoring potential -- due to the AoE bombs, I think, and Gain in particular being able to spam bombs against the stage 2 flamingoes)
I've used savestates to practice bosses/stages, and recommend them, even though they have that temporary graphical/sound glitch after loading a state. I'd also recommend memorizing how many times do you need to change a formation until it becomes the one you want, not necessarily the formation order itself (for example, during the first boss, if you're playing as Gain and want to change from Front to Tail in order to destroy a wing's propeller from under with your shot, press C four times).
So far, I avoid trying to take out the central propeller with my shots and then try to damage the boss itself, that would require me one life at least and I'm not good enough to "feel" the boss' HP, which would likely not have the twincannon's body and thus would spam quick shots until the boss is destroyed or leaves the screen (unfortunately, Gain's options count as piercing shots, instead of option shots), plus I prefer to spend 2 lives at the blimp at the beginning of stage 2 (though I can get with using 1 life on it, at the cost of not leveling up my medals as much)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 13, 2009, 05:39:58 PM
What do the golden powerup items do? I've seen and picked them up, but nothing seems to happen.

In DG? They wipe out all enemies/bullets on screen. The Silver ones are just for points.

Oh. Usually arcade games will throw a number in the ones digit other than 0 if the player has continued. I thought you were going for some crazy low-score challenge :P

DG doesn't in the TL2 version or the MAME version. I can't say whether the other Darius games do off the top of my head.

I think I might give Darius Gaiden and G-Darius a try on Taito Legends 2, which I bought a while ago just because it had Gekirindan in it :P

I've played Gekirindan a bit and it's fairly neat, but I bought TL2 for the two Darius games and Raystorm basically. Though Dungeon Magic turned out to be surprisingly enjoyable as well.

xD OK. I have Storm Causer as one of my fav fishies, probably because:

Don't get me wrong, Storm Causer's one of my favourite bosses from all the Darius games (I also like how he's similar to Golden Ogre but MUCH stronger). It's just he always beats me down pretty badly, so it's a kind of love/hate relationship.

e.g. Electric Fan is harder than... name... the Zone B boss.
The harder other-colored fishes are packed at the bottom, if i remember correctly. Maybe it's just me.

Well yeah, Electric Fan's a stage 3 boss (Zone E), so you'd expect him to be harder than Ancient Dozer (Zone B/stage 2 boss). Maybe we're misunderstanding each-other here. Anyway, let's leave it at that.

I'll try that crazy continuous 28 Zones just for the heck of trying, but the very fast rapidfire as a standard is... say, unacceptable for me +_+.

Yeah, I don't like the insane rapidfire either. Makes all the bosses die too quickly.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 13, 2009, 05:50:38 PM
So, what Darius game(s) would you recommend me? (for comparison, I liked Gynoug and Battle Mania/Trouble Shooter, even though i wasn't a good player -- I mean, good enough to start liking shmups in general, as I previously thought that they were unfair and not much well designed due to how easy it is to lose a life on them)

Hah, I liked Gynoug as well. IMO you really can't go wrong with Darius Gaiden. It's the best of the series from my point of view, and there's nothing particularly complicated about it (other than capturing minibosses I guess). Darius II's also pretty straightforward, though it's not as polished or as enjoyable as DG. G-Darius is good fun and has some neat ideas, but it relies a bit too much on the Capture Ball mechanic. Darius I is fairly repetitive. I can't really remember Darius Force/Twin that well.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 13, 2009, 05:58:15 PM
thank you, gotta check these when I have spare time.. (Enhasa's made a StB scoreboard in the shmups forum, I've got to improve some of my PoFV scores, and there's possibly a TH12.3 tournament coming, in which I want to test certain skillcards. And I would want to improve my STGT scores, and possibly record the inputs to try to get Donut to play these games :p)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lloyd Dunamis on November 13, 2009, 06:14:00 PM
Oh, shadowbringer, welcome to the Silver Hawk team! x3
I'll second vote for Darius Gaiden ^_^. It's a good start IMO.

Well yeah, Electric Fan's a stage 3 boss (Zone E), so you'd expect him to be harder than Ancient Dozer (Zone B/stage 2 boss). Maybe we're misunderstanding each-other here. Anyway, let's leave it at that.
Electric Fan (Zone C) and Folding Fan could be confu... Wait, yeah, you're right! Agh, memories OTL
*realizes something* Hnnn, how about difficulty according to alphabetical order?
... err, anyway, *leaves difficulty topic*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 13, 2009, 06:25:55 PM
Definitely Darius Gaiden.

Have you played X-Multiply, shadowbringer? That one's another hori shmup I'm fond of, if not just because it's so freaking weird.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Vanishing Sock Puppet on November 13, 2009, 06:36:55 PM
Have you played X-Multiply, shadowbringer? That one's another hori shmup I'm fond of, if not just because it's so freaking weird.

It helps though. Fuck I love Irem!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 13, 2009, 07:03:46 PM
haven't tried X-Multiply, I'll check it.. (I hope that I don't get too many games in my playing queue, because my memory isn't very good :p)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 13, 2009, 08:33:20 PM
I just discovered Hollow world of god. But it has some problems running for me. It crashes after I beat the reaper-boss (I guess he's the last boss in the chain? I dunno). It also crashes when I alt-tab, which is annoying cuz I HAVE to to close the stupid "this is an counterfeit copy of windows" popup.. EVEN THOUGH ITS ACTUALLY FUCKING LEGAL!!!! gah...

Also, the "boss' health is low" sound when I hit em makes my speakers/headphones go nuts. They totally just distort and garble this loud popping noise.... I don't like turning the sound off or whatever. Anybody know how to fix this? Also is there an english patch that offers more translation than just the config and menu? I kinda want to know what those shops are for.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 13, 2009, 09:35:55 PM
Aisha:
what ship are you using, by the way? (I normally use Gain, since it's said that the Mahou ships minus Chitta have the best scoring potential -- due to the AoE bombs, I think, and Gain in particular being able to spam bombs against the stage 2 flamingoes)
I've used savestates to practice bosses/stages, and recommend them, even though they have that temporary graphical/sound glitch after loading a state. I'd also recommend memorizing how many times do you need to change a formation until it becomes the one you want, not necessarily the formation order itself (for example, during the first boss, if you're playing as Gain and want to change from Front to Tail in order to destroy a wing's propeller from under with your shot, press C four times).
So far, I avoid trying to take out the central propeller with my shots and then try to damage the boss itself, that would require me one life at least and I'm not good enough to "feel" the boss' HP, which would likely not have the twincannon's body and thus would spam quick shots until the boss is destroyed or leaves the screen (unfortunately, Gain's options count as piercing shots, instead of option shots), plus I prefer to spend 2 lives at the blimp at the beginning of stage 2 (though I can get with using 1 life on it, at the cost of not leveling up my medals as much)

I've been using the Golden Bat. I've been mostly just closely following the ST on Shmups Forum to get myself acquainted with the game, its score system, and its rank system. I wish it were a little bit faster, but the ship is growing on me so I'll probably stick with it. I haven't really experimented much though; the Mahou ship with the giant purple knives (Gain?) as options seemed pretty cool.

And yeah, the option formation order is giving me hell; there's no order indicator (like the Thunder Force shot order or something), so it's pretty easy to lose track of what my options are doing.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 13, 2009, 09:41:56 PM
As far as Garegga goes, I seem to do the best with Miyamoto C or ABC.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 13, 2009, 11:49:27 PM
Aisha: check this if you haven't already, or if the videos in the ST thread didn't already demonstrate in practice everything this video would show you.. (however, if you haven't seen this video yet, how will you know? :p)

http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=2775
http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=2776
http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=2777

you can also watch japanese player KET play Garegga here:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/garelab

as for the options, I guide myself through the "click" noise, to confirm if the game accepted (registered) my C button presses. Once I see the options assume the desired formation, I may resume shooting. (hope that this tip helps save you the time it took for me to realize this)
Sorry for not being able to provide tips for Golden Bat, haven't used it yet..
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 14, 2009, 12:43:50 AM
Yeah, I've seen those superplays. They're all pretty helpful, even if the ship is different.

How often does KET play? I've been trying to catch a stream for the past few days with no luck.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 14, 2009, 01:15:30 AM
I don't know exactly, I'm new to it :p
(I think that I've been able to catch him playing during weekdays and weekends, I think, don't remember exactly when.. perhaps it could be that I and other people were lucky that he participated in this year's STGT, so he would be playing the game more often because of it?)

iirc, he ends the 1st stage with more than 600k points with Chitta, yet he dies sometimes, unintentionally. Yet, he keeps playing without restarting the game (he doesn't seem pissed off, just a bit embarassed, sometimes he laughs at his mistakes :p), except when he reaches the Game Over screen :p
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 14, 2009, 01:55:10 AM
As for options, I only really use the spread shot and the straight shot. I've got those pretty much memorized. Press C twice for straight, then three times after that for the spread again.

Anyway, I played some ESPGaluda today for a change. Came within a sliver of beating the stage 4 boss! :)

Then I went to Practice Mode and played against the final boss.

Is it just me, or is he/she hilariously easy? I mean, I used to have a lot of trouble against him/her when I tried a few months ago, but then I played it today (and Practice mode starts you with no powerups, so in between phases I suicided a bit to get up to a realistic amount), and had really no trouble at all, even at the last pattern, which really is more intimidation than anything. It only gets kinda rough when you lose track of the vertically-falling bullets.

Those last few patterns are mesmerizing though. No wonder ZUN swiped the second and fourth ones for his games. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weNg-Uob6rs&fmt=18#t=4m18s)

Same goes for Byakuren's opening attack, Mai's blind spot spread, and Utsuho's Mega Flare. All at once. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Is7ZenBiE&fmt=18#t=3m28s) and Remilia's Scarlet Shoot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Is7ZenBiE&fmt=18#t=4m45s) in ESP Ra.De. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 14, 2009, 02:39:45 AM
572,330 for Garegga's first stage. Getting there, slowly. I'm doing everything right, but just not quickly enough. Oh well, eventually.

As for options, I only really use the spread shot and the straight shot. I've got those pretty much memorized. Press C twice for straight, then three times after that for the spread again.

Anyway, I played some ESPGaluda today for a change. Came within a sliver of beating the stage 4 boss! :)

Then I went to Practice Mode and played against the final boss.

Is it just me, or is he/she hilariously easy? I mean, I used to have a lot of trouble against him/her when I tried a few months ago, but then I played it today (and Practice mode starts you with no powerups, so in between phases I suicided a bit to get up to a realistic amount), and had really no trouble at all, even at the last pattern, which really is more intimidation than anything. It only gets kinda rough when you lose track of the vertically-falling bullets.

Those last few patterns are mesmerizing though. No wonder ZUN swiped the second and fourth ones for his games. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weNg-Uob6rs&fmt=18#t=4m18s)

Same goes for Byakuren's opening attack, Mai's blind spot spread, and Utsuho's Mega Flare. All at once. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Is7ZenBiE&fmt=18#t=3m28s) and Remilia's Scarlet Shoot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9Is7ZenBiE&fmt=18#t=4m45s) in ESP Ra.De. :P

I can't tell which patterns he swiped from Espgaluda, but he took a couple from ESP Ra.De.'s Ms. Garra and used them for Shinki. In fact, I have a suspicion that Shinki's design and her fight are a reference or homage to ESP Ra.De.'s final boss; there's just too much in common. The release dates of the games match up, too.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 14, 2009, 02:49:05 AM
Not to mention Shinki and Ms. Garra have awesome wings.

In ESPGaluda, the last form of the final boss uses a move that ZUN made into Mokou's 'Flaw of Forgiving Shrine' (Second phase in the link I posted) and the last pattern is very similar (while at the same time nowhere near as easy) of Nitori's 'Trauma in the Glimmering Depths'.  :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 14, 2009, 03:04:11 AM
Oh, now I see the resemblances.

I can't stand patterns that curve like Nitori's "Trauma in the Glimmering Depths". Byakuren's yellow lasers are the worst; they're up there on my shit list for bullet patterns, along with the final pattern of the TLB of BWR+ and the like.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 14, 2009, 03:07:34 AM
Fun fact: Flaw of Forgiving Shrine is actually based on Evil Eye Sigma's third attack phase in SoEW, which if I have it right was released quite a ways before ESPGaluda.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 14, 2009, 03:17:51 AM
Huh. I never really saw the resemblance until now. Before, every time I saw it, I kept seeing Meira's final attack on steroids.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sodium on November 14, 2009, 03:18:52 AM
Gee, it sure is fun being stuck on the midbosses of Seihou Shuusou Gyoku and Samidare Extra. I can get past Marisa at least, but with 1 spare life max.

Meh, Both the Flaw of Forgiving ______'s are pretty bad. One is a SoEW attack, so shit, and the other is loleasy and has a safespot.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 14, 2009, 03:21:31 AM
Oh, now I see the resemblances.

I can't stand patterns that curve like Nitori's "Trauma in the Glimmering Depths". Byakuren's yellow lasers are the worst; they're up there on my shit list for bullet patterns, along with the final pattern of the TLB of BWR+ and the like.

SQUIGGLY CURVEY LASERS ARE EVIL!!!! I completely agree. Though I have a hard time with Nitori's cucumber laser too. I don't know why but my eyes..they just can't see new green lasers coming. I don't know why, I just can't READ them...at all.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 14, 2009, 03:32:53 AM
SQUIGGLY CURVEY LASERS ARE EVIL!!!! I completely agree. Though I have a hard time with Nitori's cucumber laser too. I don't know why but my eyes..they just can't see new green lasers coming. I don't know why, I just can't READ them...at all.

I can kind of read them after a few drinks (exaggerating) but yeah, I just kinda do these little taps and hope for the best. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 14, 2009, 03:41:18 AM
Gee, it sure is fun being stuck on the midbosses of Seihou Shuusou Gyoku and Samidare Extra. I can get past Marisa at least, but with 1 spare life max.

The SG midboss is fairly trivializable as long as you're not playing the stage at max rank (in which case oh hello there Eternal Meek why are your bullets all green).  What part of it is giving you trouble?

Oh and I got 730k in GB2 the other day.  Just a slight improvement, still can't get past 1-6 boss.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 14, 2009, 03:50:22 AM
Someone help me in stage 5 Dodonpachi.
At the end of the stage, when you're about to fight the boss- there are these large helicopters that shoot missiles, which shoot aimed bullets. Does anyone know how to get through this one part?????
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 14, 2009, 03:55:06 AM
Oh and I got 730k in GB2 the other day.  Just a slight improvement, still can't get past 1-6 boss.

The stage 6 boss is harder than the final boss, I hear.

Just wondering, how often do you use special attacks (charged attacks/melee) and bombs? I'm stuck in a 'gotta build up my charge meter before it will be worth using' mentality, and it's kicking me in the ass in the long run. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 14, 2009, 04:05:26 AM
For the longest time I had no idea that there were melee attacks in Gunbird 2. :V

(And no one caught my Rob quote? :()
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sodium on November 14, 2009, 04:05:37 AM
Azinth: SG Extra, not the main game.

...Wait. Shit, that post was worded wrong. I meant the first boss, not midboss. Marisa and Gates.

But in case you can help me:
I suck at the attack where she throws the ring at you; I keep getting hit by the ring returning.
I suck at the orange spam with lasers. but who doesn't?
I have a tendency to randomly die to that really easy attack that can be dodged by moving one right/left
What's the best way to handle the Marisa Double?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 14, 2009, 04:12:51 AM
(And no one caught my Rob quote? :()

I did.  DEM LAZERZ.

Just wondering, how often do you use special attacks (charged attacks/melee) and bombs? I'm stuck in a 'gotta build up my charge meter before it will be worth using' mentality, and it's kicking me in the ass in the long run. :P

Charge/melee attacks are definitely really important in this game, since the characters' main shots feel really underpowered most of the time.  I'm using Tavia, who is supposed to be one of the stronger ones, and even she takes forever to kill big enemies with her forward fire.  Level 1 shots are usually the best option, simply because they're quick.  It's also important that you learn how the enemies' patterns work so you know when it's save to go in close for a melee.  It might sound cheap, but it would probably be best to just look at a superplay and see how they do it, since more often than not they know what they're doing. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 14, 2009, 04:21:42 AM
Azinth: SG Extra, not the main game.
I suck at the attack where she throws the ring at you; I keep getting hit by the ring returning.

Dodge through the ring; it might take some practice to be able to do it (especially if there are four or more suns) but it's not that bad.  Then move up and to the side (to avoid getting boomerang'd) and dodge the lasers vertically.

Quote
I suck at the orange spam with lasers. but who doesn't?

If she has three or less suns left alive, then the attack can be dodged, though it's still kind of tight and I'd recommend bombing just for safety.  If she has four or more suns alive, then the attack is basically undodgeable.

Quote
I have a tendency to randomly die to that really easy attack that can be dodged by moving one right/left

If you move yourself to the very left of one of the bottom bullets in the wedge, then the attack will miss you.  That means that if she doesn't spawn a laser on you, you can just dodge it by tapping to the left once.  If lasers spawn on you, then you'll have to find another safespot.

Quote
What's the best way to handle the Marisa Double?

Dunno. :V  I usually just fly off to one side and hope the clone decides to spawn above me.  Though the clone is always the one that doesn't flap her wings at the start of the attack, so maybe you can get something from that.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 14, 2009, 04:42:16 AM
To hell with it. No more Dodonpachi 2nd loop for me. It feels like the whole game on the 2nd loop is just cheap attacks that aren't fun. It also feels like a memorization fest, since you can't see your hitbox and mame controls suck.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Vanishing Sock Puppet on November 14, 2009, 08:51:47 AM
Playing me some Milestone Shooting Collection, and loving every minute of it.

...I must really have bad taste.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 15, 2009, 04:36:30 AM
Hey guys

11 more days until Mushi Futari (

I started playing Change Air Blade today. Kind of a neat idea, but really confusing at first.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 15, 2009, 04:17:22 PM
Lucky... I still have to wait a week before I get my ps2.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 15, 2009, 04:19:39 PM
And I'm shmupless for 11 days and counting.
I win :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 15, 2009, 07:06:08 PM
Lucky... I still have to wait a week before I get my ps2.

uh

a week is less than 11 days

And I'm shmupless for 11 days and counting.
I win :V

Start getting warmed up on MAME. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 15, 2009, 09:21:11 PM
Wowza, 2cc'd Hibachi again thanks to Sapz's tip on cutting the crap and just shotgunning Hachi in the face. (though it feels more "epic" to destroy him one part at a time).

BTW, anyone know the best way to record Dodonpachi on MAME? I tried with Hypercam but the video was so choppy it was unwatchable.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 15, 2009, 09:56:42 PM
Have you tried Fraps? That's what I use for everything, but I have yet to record from MAME, so I have no idea :/
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 15, 2009, 10:21:22 PM
MAME has a built in AVI recorder, but it makes the game extremely laggy. What you might want to try and do is record an INP first and then run the AVI recorder while replaying that. I'm not sure if the lag caused by the recorder would make the INP desync, though, since I'v enever tried this.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 15, 2009, 10:23:23 PM
uh

a week is less than 11 days

Start getting warmed up on MAME. :P

Well... it'll be 2 weeks before I get an external DVD writer...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 15, 2009, 10:26:41 PM
*shrug* I bet it'd be faster if you just ordered the actual game :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 15, 2009, 10:27:23 PM
On the subject of inputs, how exactly do you play one back on Mame?  All I've really figured out is how you record them.  I'm using Mame32.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 15, 2009, 10:30:31 PM
File -> Playback Input. :)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 15, 2009, 10:31:04 PM
Fraps doesn't anchor to MAME. An input file has the unfortunate requirements of needing me to second loop since you can't use savestates during one. Not only that, but my objective is to record myself fighting Hibachi-chan (squee~), and a GOOD fight. All I know is that I see pretty good recordings of the fight on Youtube, and one of them had the person admitting to using savestates, so there HAS to be a way.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 15, 2009, 10:32:43 PM
Hmm. Come to think of it, I've seen some MAME stuff on YouTube posted by SFKhoa. Maybe he knows a decent method.

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 16, 2009, 02:11:35 AM
Personal high score on Dodonpachi: 78mil.
I don't even like the 2nd loop... why am I even playing it?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 16, 2009, 02:17:50 AM
Because deep down, you do like it. You definitely wouldn't be playing otherwise.

I'll bitch and complain about Battle Garegga as much as I do, but some part of me has to like the game, because I sure play it a lot.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 16, 2009, 02:48:02 AM
The second loop is good for a laugh as long as you don't take it seriously. Once you stop caring about doing well and embrace the unlimited continues, it's all "oh lol I got BS'd so hard right there" instead of "FUCK THIS GAME IS SO BULLSHIT." Except for the stage 5 boss; Nothing can redeem bullets that are spawned, activated, and thrown at you all faster than the fastest ship's unfocused speed can get out of the way.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 16, 2009, 02:53:23 AM
The second loop is good for a laugh as long as you don't take it seriously. Once you stop caring about doing well and embrace the unlimited continues, it's all "oh lol I got BS'd so hard right there" instead of "FUCK THIS GAME IS SO BULLSHIT." Except for the stage 5 boss; Nothing can redeem bullets that are spawned, activated, and thrown at you all faster than the fastest ship's unfocused speed can get out of the way.
What do you have to do to loop it?
1cc with losing only 2 lives at most?
And once you loop it, can you continue spam and still fight Hibachi?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 16, 2009, 03:07:31 AM
What do you have to do to loop it?
1cc with losing only 2 lives at most?
And once you loop it, can you continue spam and still fight Hibachi?

You can complete any of the following to loop it:
1cc without dying more than 2 times
Collect all the bees in 4 or more stages
Obtain 50million points (I've only done this once on the first loop)
Get 270 chain with red ship
Get 300 chain with green ship
Get 330 chain with blue ship (Yet again, only once)

There are others but I can't name them off the top of my head.
Also, yes, you can just continue spam after you loop it and still fight Hibachi. (HIS FIGHT IS SO BULLSHIT. IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN THE STAGE 5 BOSS ON THE 2ND LOOP. LET ME SEE MY HITBOX!)
And before Matsuri can say something about me liking the Hibachi fight- even if I do loop and decide to continue spam, I shut off the game once I get to Hibachi. Pretty much the epitome of not-fun there.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 16, 2009, 03:13:04 AM
There's nothing wrong with the second loop or with Hibachi. It's_just_fucking_difficult. That's all. It requires a higher skill level and more practice.

You can complete any of the following to loop it:
1cc without dying more than 2 times
Collect all the bees in 4 or more stages
Obtain 50million points (I've only done this once on the first loop)
Get 270 chain with red ship
Get 300 chain with green ship
Get 330 chain with blue ship (Yet again, only once)

There are others but I can't name them off the top of my head.
Also, yes, you can just continue spam after you loop it and still fight Hibachi. (HIS FIGHT IS SO BULLSHIT. IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN THE STAGE 5 BOSS ON THE 2ND LOOP. LET ME SEE MY HITBOX!)

There's also the overarching condition of the 1CC. So it's 1CC plus any one of the above conditions.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 16, 2009, 03:17:27 AM
You can complete any of the following to loop it:
1cc without dying more than 2 times
Collect all the bees in 4 or more stages
Obtain 50million points (I've only done this once on the first loop)
Get 270 chain with red ship
Get 300 chain with green ship
Get 330 chain with blue ship (Yet again, only once)

There are others but I can't name them off the top of my head.
Also, yes, you can just continue spam after you loop it and still fight Hibachi. (HIS FIGHT IS SO BULLSHIT. IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN THE STAGE 5 BOSS ON THE 2ND LOOP. LET ME SEE MY HITBOX!)
The game has 7 areas, but area 7 is only accessible by entering 2nd loop. 2nd loop is accessible if:
Loses at most 2 fighters (lives).
Depending on the fighter used, have a maximum hit count of at least the following:
Type A: 270 hits
Type B: 300 hits
Type C: 330 hits
Score at least 50 million points at the end of the area 6.
Collect all 13 bees in four of the six areas.

The wiki made it sound like you need to do all of it at once.

Anyways, how hard are the 270 hits? And how much skill does it take to 1cc it?
So far I've only screwed around a few times and managed a 4cc with many, many bomb deaths.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 16, 2009, 03:24:08 AM
If you're looking into survival, use the blue ship; that's number 1.
2. I really can't say how hard getting 270 hits on the red ship is, since I only play as the blue one.
3. Getting 330 hits on the blue one... I don't even try to do that. I've done it once on stage 5 while trying to survive, but I've never managed to do that again. I've come close with 313, 299, 304, etc.
4. As for skill to 1cc... not very much I'm afraid. I've played for maybe... 5-6 hours total before 1cc'ing it with the red ship. Then I moved on to the blue ship and 1cc's became consistent. 1cc'ing the 2nd loop... it'll require maybe 300 or so more hours of playtime for me. It'd mean I would have to pretty much perfect the 1st loop and die a maximum of 3 times to have a chance against Hibachi.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 16, 2009, 03:39:16 AM
I still need to readjust from touhou and the luxury of deathbombing :V

Apparently, st5 has a simple way to reach a 330 chain... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6xUTX7u1Qg)
I don't really care about score or stuff, I just want to see the big guy and how hard he really is...I'll probably savestate somewhere until I nail that combo and savestate through the rest to get the 1cc.

As for 1ccing the second loop.....no way in hell I'm even hoping for that for the next 4 years.

Also....where is the hidden st3 life? I guess that it's in a fixed spot in the orange mass of whatever?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 16, 2009, 03:48:30 AM
I still need to readjust from touhou and the luxury of deathbombing :V

Apparently, st5 has a simple way to reach a 330 chain... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6xUTX7u1Qg)
I don't really care about score or stuff, I just want to see the big guy and how hard he really is...I'll probably savestate somewhere until I nail that combo and savestate through the rest to get the 1cc.

As for 1ccing the second loop.....no way in hell I'm even hoping for that for the next 4 years.

Also....where is the hidden st3 life? I guess that it's in a fixed spot in the orange mass of whatever?

In stage 3, when you get to the large battleship at the end of the stage, look for large yellow boxes on both sides of the ship. There are 6 in all; 3 on each side. Destroy them. Then destroy the control tower near the rear end of the ship and you'll find the extend.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 16, 2009, 07:47:19 AM
Tried playing Dodonpachi for the first time the other day. Any recommendations on which ship to use, or doesn't it really matter?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 16, 2009, 08:04:08 AM
It does, because they each have different movement speeds and shots that behave differently. So it's important to find one that you are comfortable with. A-L and C-S are the most widely-used ships.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 16, 2009, 09:01:41 PM
Quote
Pretty much the epitome of not-fun there.

Get out.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 16, 2009, 09:03:25 PM
Sapz gave me his Hibachi savestate to play around with. I wonder how many continues it'll take me after a while. I've only tried it twice so far.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 16, 2009, 09:05:46 PM
I gave him that savestate actually. :V I'm perfectly fine with giving it to anyone else who wants to fight Hibachi because nobody should have to go through the hell of second looping just to see him.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 16, 2009, 09:37:31 PM
As much as it pains me on the inside, it looks like I'll be changing to WolfMame from now on, just because it can do savestates and throttle and stuff nicely. The version I've been preferring doesn't like to work well with that.

One thing I just don't like about it is that you can see a faint line of distortion moving up the screen every so often, and the version of MAME I was using before didn't. Oh, and the sound doesn't seem as good, either. :(

Then again, I haven't played with all of the settings yet.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 16, 2009, 11:27:31 PM
/r hibachi savestate since I can't be arsed to play this seriously :V
seemed weird to me how I've never seen Sapz around this thread, then he just comes out and 3ccs him.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 16, 2009, 11:42:43 PM
Heck, there's no real reason not to just post this for everyone's perusal:

http://rapidshare.com/files/308052316/ddonpach-h.sta.html
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 17, 2009, 12:00:27 AM
How exactly do you find Hibachi to be fun? The 2nd loop can be fun if you play it enough... but fighting Hibachi with crappy mame controls is.... just.... can't even say it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 17, 2009, 12:06:02 AM
Hibachi's a Cave TLB. You have to judge them by different standards than most bosses. I mean, when the stage 5 boss shits you out by throwing fireballs you can't dodge without precognition of course it's frustrating. But Hibachi is a True Last Boss. He was designed specifically to say "you wanna 1cc my game? Well fuck you, pry it from my burning mechanical hands." Going in with the intent of doing well is the wrong strategy. Going in with the mindset of "I have a ridiculously hard boss and unlimited continues, let's see what happens" brings great joy. I mean, cursing him for being hard is like cursing rain for falling, it's what he does.

As for the fight, there's only one part I'd actually call unfair, and that's how during most of his attacks the slowdown abruptly ends, leaving you to dodge the last shots with a disoriented feel. The rest is just deliciously hard.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 12:14:14 AM
Heeeeee. You think Hibachi's fun, wait 'til you continuespam your way to Aki!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sapz on November 17, 2009, 12:15:18 AM
/r hibachi savestate since I can't be arsed to play this seriously :V
seemed weird to me how I've never seen Sapz around this thread, then he just comes out and 3ccs him.
I've been lurking in this thread for a very long time, and also Matsuri gave me DDP quite a while ago so I've had a bit of practice. Also, my best has changed from a 3cc to a 3 death clear (still a 2cc). I find it sort of funny/strange that I might 1cc Hibachi before I 1cc the first loop, but hey. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 17, 2009, 12:30:12 AM
Going in with the mindset of "I have a ridiculously hard boss and unlimited continues, let's see what happens" brings great joy.
Hard ass patterns are amazingly fun to dick around with when you have infinite lives.
But when they turn into a serious obstacle before getting your 1cc, you'll hate it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 17, 2009, 12:32:01 AM
Anyone who realistically wants to 1cc DDP knows what they're getting into.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 17, 2009, 12:55:07 AM
Heeeeee. You think Hibachi's fun, wait 'til you continuespam your way to Aki!
So I've looked for videos....and I gotta say, Aki's final pattern is seriously the biggest "fuck you" I've ever seen in a video game.
Some of his patterns were recreated in YGS2000 IIRC and while most of them are dodgeable, but the final one....Hibachi would cry.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 01:01:05 AM
Well see, watching most of Aki's patterns, it looks easy, but once you get that far, and the pressure is on, it's a lot harder than it looks, even in the relatively easy-in-comparison-to-Ultra-mode Arrange mode version of him.

It's kind of the same in Futari. The Ultra mode Larsa TLB (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXApj3bfq4c) is sooooooooo much harder than the Black Label God Mode Larsa TLB (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2551010), and it's pretty obvious just from watching. However, the requirements to get to that point are different. For Ultra mode Larsa TLB, you have to get to the end of the game. For God Mode Larsa TLB (aka 'Spiritual Larsa', the one with the amazing music) you have to 1cc God Mode without dying once.

Bonus: Oh hey, look. It's Radiant Treasure Gun. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQCjPzxrBWI)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 17, 2009, 01:16:58 AM
Well see, watching most of Aki's patterns, it looks easy, but once you get that far, and the pressure is on, it's a lot harder than it looks, even in the relatively easy-in-comparison-to-Ultra-mode Arrange mode version of him.

It's kind of the same in Futari. The Ultra mode Larsa TLB (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXApj3bfq4c) is sooooooooo much harder than the Black Label God Mode Larsa TLB (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2551010), and it's pretty obvious just from watching. However, the requirements to get to that point are different. For Ultra mode Larsa TLB, you have to get to the end of the game. For God Mode Larsa TLB (aka 'Spiritual Larsa', the one with the amazing music) you have to 1cc God Mode without dying once.

Bonus: Oh hey, look. It's Radiant Treasure Gun. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQCjPzxrBWI)
It's not RTG without the lasers :V
So in Futari, you get 2 more boss forms in Ultra just for completing it? Or do you have to 1cc?

By the way, Larsa's non TLB boss theme is the best one :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 01:33:39 AM
Not quite sure. In the first Mushi game, you can continuespam your way to Aki. In Arrange mode, there are no continues, period, so even getting that far is quite an accomplishment, even with autobomb :P

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 17, 2009, 01:59:53 AM
I always thought DDP's stage 5 and 6 bosses were pretty fun fights myself. 8)

So after two days (give or take) of playing Strikers III I got to stage 1-5 and scored 500k (forgot to savestate, so I don't remember the exact number sadly).  I dunno, the patterns seem a lot slower paced and sight-readable in this game than in Gunbird 2, even though they're not easy by any means.  Also, Psikyo got lazy; the medal rotation in S1999 is nearly the same as the coin rotation in GB2, so my (not that great) chaining abilities managed to carry over somewhat.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 02:40:22 AM
S1999 is essentially Gunbird 2 minus the melee attacks, but with Technical Bonuses.

Also, you all should download the hiscore.dat so MAME will save scores for you. I don't exactly remember where exactly to find it though; Khoa linked me to it, and I forgot the site already. ^^;
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 17, 2009, 05:12:20 AM
As much as it pains me on the inside, it looks like I'll be changing to WolfMame from now on, just because it can do savestates and throttle and stuff nicely. The version I've been preferring doesn't like to work well with that.

One thing I just don't like about it is that you can see a faint line of distortion moving up the screen every so often, and the version of MAME I was using before didn't. Oh, and the sound doesn't seem as good, either. :(

Then again, I haven't played with all of the settings yet.

Earlier today I found some code on Shmups Forum for the cave.c driver in MAME which would re-enable save states to work with their games. I compiled a version of MAMEUI64 using the latest (0.135) MAME source (I can try 32 if necessary) and everything seems to work fine, but I haven't tested it much. I can upload it if you (or anyone) like. It doesn't seem to like Donut's Hibachi save state (though I kind of saw that coming), but it might not have those other downsides that you mentioned are in WolfMame99, so it might make a nice alternative.

Though no guarantees it will work, since one class's worth of programming knowledge can only get you so far. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 05:21:40 AM
I'll probably get used to it. Overall, the interface looks exactly the same, so that's nice-- I can play with the settings as if I was playing with MAME32's.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 05:43:25 AM
Ahahaha. I just finished a practice mode run of the final boss in ESPGaluda, and didn't even die once on his/her mesmerizing final attack. Awesome :)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 17, 2009, 07:02:41 AM
I could never really get good with ESPGaluda--stage 3 or 4 and that's it. I tried the final boss for the fun of it a few times, and it was just silly. A PS2 controller can only take me so far. :V

I'll probably end up buying a nice stick with Futari and staying with that whenever possible; hopefully it will also work on the PC, and I will learn how to use it well.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 17, 2009, 12:25:32 PM
I could never really get good with ESPGaluda--stage 3 or 4 and that's it. I tried the final boss for the fun of it a few times, and it was just silly. A PS2 controller can only take me so far. :V

I'll probably end up buying a nice stick with Futari and staying with that whenever possible; hopefully it will also work on the PC, and I will learn how to use it well.
?
How hard are shmups with arcade sticks? I'd rather get a keyboard :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 12:27:06 PM
?
How hard are shmups with arcade sticks? I'd rather get a keyboard :V

Easier, you mean. Only doujins are truly suited for play on a keyboard.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 17, 2009, 03:02:14 PM
Heck, there's no real reason not to just post this for everyone's perusal:

http://rapidshare.com/files/308052316/ddonpach-h.sta.html

I saved this to my MAME 'sta' folder, but I can't seem to load it. The version of MAME I'm using requires me to hit the 'load state' key (F7) and then press another key corresponding to whichever key the state was saved under (e.g. if I save a state to the 'Z' key by pressing Shift+F7 followed by Z, I'll have to load it by pressing F7 and then Z). Any ideas?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 17, 2009, 03:15:44 PM
This savestate is for "h" key.

Meanwhile I tried it and managed to kill Hibachi with 4 deaths. Also found a very reliable method of one-lifing the first form using 6 bombs, and a slightly less reliable one for 5 bombs.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 17, 2009, 03:29:18 PM
This savestate is for "h" key.

Second thing I tried after 'z'. Also tried using 'h' with the .sta inside + outside a 'ddonpach' sub-folder (within the sta folder), repeating this after renaming the ddonpach-h.sta to h.sta. Every time I get: 'Unable to load due to pending anonymous timers. See error.log for details'.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 17, 2009, 03:35:17 PM
Oh, you're just using a MAME version that doesn't support savestates in Cave games. I'm using WolfMAME 0.99 (http://wolfmame.marpirc.net/wolfmameplus-099-vc.exe).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 17, 2009, 03:37:51 PM
Tsk, will probably switch then. Thanks.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 03:40:16 PM
Oh, you're just using a MAME version that doesn't support savestates in Cave games. I'm using WolfMAME 0.99 (http://wolfmame.marpirc.net/wolfmameplus-099-vc.exe).

Yeah, that's why I switched. Still not entirely convinced that I like it yet, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 17, 2009, 03:44:53 PM
WolfMAME 0.99 gives you pretty much the lowest input lag of all available MAME versions (which is also why you see the tearing line that scrolls down: it's the lack of vsync), as well as savestate support for Cave games and playback support for many key input movies on Shmups and MARP.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 17, 2009, 03:55:16 PM
Is vsync the only source of input lag on newer versions of MAME? I don't think I've experienced any noticable lag using 0.135, but then I don't recall explicitly enabling vsync for any game..
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 17, 2009, 04:25:30 PM
Not the only one. At least one another source is MAME developers "emulating" the arcade cab buttons by artificially adding more input lag. As if we don't already use buttons to play it. >_> There are likely more sources, such as framebuffer or something else, but that MAME version is so far the safest.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Zengar Zombolt on November 17, 2009, 05:05:40 PM
Quote from: Matsuri
Tales of crushing defeat are welcome in the Shooter thread
WELL HERE YOU HAVE THEM ;_;
in all honesty I did enjoy the games, thanks
Also it had Mars Matrix, it's nowhere as complex as I thought but still pretty fucking bitch
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 17, 2009, 05:22:22 PM
Not the only one. At least one another source is MAME developers "emulating" the arcade cab buttons by artificially adding more input lag. As if we don't already use buttons to play it. >_>

Seriously? That's a bit too accurate for my tastes. :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Grand Octopus on November 17, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
Things that suck about Sexy Parodius:

1. Respawning at checkpoints with no powerups when you die.
2. Movement speed is governed by powerups (see 1).
3. There's a powerup that removes all your powerups.
4. Penguins.
5. Enemies fire bullets after you've killed them.
6. Enemies taunt you after they've killed you.
7. Bullets taunt you after they've killed you.
8. Trying to 'select' Bell colours with a multi-hit homing weapon.
9. Penguins.
10. Enemies frequently spawning behind you.
11. Shield hitboxes are 2x the standard size.
12. Silly mission objectives.
13. Silly stage design.
14. Bosses are weak.
15. Losing all your powerups when you start the post-game Extra Stage.
16. Motherfucking penguins.

It's a fun yet flawed game. I approve of the variety of characters + weapons, but the later stage segments are way too vicious.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 17, 2009, 08:12:58 PM
So I tried getting that WolfMAME 99 or whatever, but I have a really stupid question.  Um, where do you put the roms?  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 17, 2009, 08:17:45 PM
That's a tough question… Try a folder named "ROMs". Create it if there is none.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 17, 2009, 08:26:12 PM
That's a tough question? Try a folder named "ROMs". Create it if there is none.

Well I figured it'd be something like that, but I expected it to already come with a folder like Mame32 did.:P  But it works now, thanks.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 17, 2009, 09:09:20 PM
It seems that WolfMame was more of an add-on to my current MAME32 folder. Everything transferred over nicely, it looks just like my MAME32 program, all the way down to my Ichigo Mashimaro background :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 17, 2009, 09:23:02 PM
I'm trying to capture this spellcard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87hKlcbBS14

It really irks me because I flopped at the first phase of it on my first try hard.. I mean HARD (4 deaths), but I didn't have to bomb or die a single time once I reached the first random red-knife spam part, along with the kanji spam part. But now that I'm trying to capture it, I can't for the life of me consistently beat the random red knife spam part. After watching that video, I thought "gee those red knives look like a joke for this guy"... I don't mean because he's better or whatever (Though he probably is), but because they just seem *WAY* easier to read for him than it does for me. So I was thinking "maybe it's because I play in fullscreen mode, I can't actually see the paths of the red knives as clearly as when I watch in this small window on youtube".

Am I just full of it? I'd really like the opinion of some shooter vets here, is it sometimes beneficial to play on a smaller screen so you can accurately read more content? Maybe it's an acquired skill of mine, but when I'm reading bullet patterns, I don't see my character (though I often know where I am by instinct or something). Which is bad because sometimes I don't notice a slow-moving bullet that I've long since forgotten about just to my side and run right into it as I'm attempting to dodge something mid-way thru the screen coming down.

Either way Imma try later with a windowed screen and see if it becomes easier but I'm interested in what you guys think.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 17, 2009, 10:57:41 PM
note: I don't have that game installed.. D:

well.. windowed mode helps for seeing the pattern better, but it may affect your positioning precision (for other patterns, for example. PoFV being another example :D); perhaps, for that red knives section, you should dodge the first streams, place yourself at a clear space and then look at the space between the boss and yourself (where you can determine the path of the knife streams and still have a bit of sight of your ship, at least on Youtube :p), and move without looking at your character (perhaps this section is meant to test how good your eye-to-hand coordination is?); it seems that if you try to concentrate around your ship, you won't have enough time to dodge on reaction.
Maybe there won't be much to be worried about on that part, since you don't need to concentrate on all streams but 3 at most (the one that may hit you, and the other adjacent 2; you'll want to be in the clear spaces between 2 streams).. if you can mentalize the fast and the lingering knives (you dodge the former, and avoid coming towards the path of the latter) and follow their flow fast enough and react accordingly.. you may be able to do it :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sapz on November 18, 2009, 12:15:25 AM
Bah, having trouble getting past the Stage 5 boss in DDP due to repeated deaths with most/all bombs in stock. I'm pretty sure I could 1cc if I cut out the needless deaths, though. Also, after some experimenting I found a nice route for getting a 180+ hit chain in Stage 1, which nets you around 3 million points by the end of the stage, so that's something I guess~
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Gammeru on November 18, 2009, 04:00:32 AM
Has anyone ever heard of XOP or XOP Black?
http://rydia.net/udder/prog/xop/
(http://rydia.net/udder/prog/image/xop21.gif)
(http://rydia.net/udder/prog/image/xop25.gif)


http://rydia.net/udder/prog/xopblack/
(http://rydia.net/udder/prog/image/xopb6.png)
(http://rydia.net/udder/prog/image/xopb7.png)

I enjoy them best with Maniac turned on at Fast (70 fps) on the Insane difficulty.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 18, 2009, 04:04:53 AM
Yup, I mentioned that a few pages back! It's a great game.

Too bad the colors are fucked up on my computer, though. Maybe XOP Black's aren't, I have yet to try that one...


EDIT: Nope, just as bad, if not worse. I think this is the only time Vista/Win7 has disappointed me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 18, 2009, 04:10:50 AM
I need to get around to trying that. A Western doujin by a knowledgeable fan of the genre...how often do those variables line up?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 18, 2009, 04:13:17 AM
I need to get around to trying that. A Western doujin by a knowledgeable fan of the genre...how often do those variables line up?

http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21621/Raiden-Space-Ship-Game.html

:V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 18, 2009, 04:15:47 AM
I need to get around to trying that. A Western doujin by a knowledgeable fan of the genre...how often do those variables line up?

Not often. Udderdude does indeed know his stuff, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 18, 2009, 04:21:29 AM
http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21621/Raiden-Space-Ship-Game.html

:V

Haha, no way, that game is impossible. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 18, 2009, 04:26:18 AM
Yeah, 'cause you'll fall asleep while playing :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 18, 2009, 04:36:13 AM
Yeah, 'cause you'll fall asleep while playing :V

You must not have been playing for score then. :smug:

That said, crappy-Raiden-fan-game scoring tournament y/n?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 18, 2009, 04:43:50 AM
Yeah, 'cause you'll fall asleep while playing :V

True, but more so because it runs too fast on my computer. :V My netbook plays it at much more manageable speeds, but its keyboard isn't really good for anything but typing.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 18, 2009, 05:02:20 AM
You must not have been playing for score then. :smug:

That said, crappy-Raiden-fan-game scoring tournament y/n?

You're talking to someone who played through the entire first loop of that game without missing one enemy and not dying once, collecting any item that came my way. I don't think I could have scored any more optimally. :smug:

And nah, I don't feel like falling asleep right now :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 18, 2009, 06:09:24 AM
note: I don't have that game installed.. D:

well.. windowed mode helps for seeing the pattern better, but it may affect your positioning precision (for other patterns, for example. PoFV being another example :D); perhaps, for that red knives section, you should dodge the first streams, place yourself at a clear space and then look at the space between the boss and yourself (where you can determine the path of the knife streams and still have a bit of sight of your ship, at least on Youtube :p), and move without looking at your character (perhaps this section is meant to test how good your eye-to-hand coordination is?); it seems that if you try to concentrate around your ship, you won't have enough time to dodge on reaction.
Maybe there won't be much to be worried about on that part, since you don't need to concentrate on all streams but 3 at most (the one that may hit you, and the other adjacent 2; you'll want to be in the clear spaces between 2 streams).. if you can mentalize the fast and the lingering knives (you dodge the former, and avoid coming towards the path of the latter) and follow their flow fast enough and react accordingly.. you may be able to do it :D
.

Yeah watching it on youtube, even on fullscreen now, it looks pretty easy on that video, I'm starting to wonder if that guy just got lucky with that phase by having it play easy on him. Much like the occasional easymode lunatic emerald megalith.

It just steams me that I aced it no sweat on my first try, and now that I know the pattern of the first phase it's giving me trouble. AGH.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 18, 2009, 02:40:55 PM
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=20060
Paralyzer score attack? y/n
:D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 18, 2009, 11:34:16 PM
Between my volunteer work (I need it to graduate and for future job prospects) and schoolwork, there's very little time to play shmups at all.
On topic: Apparently my ps2 has arrived; I just need to go see my Aunt now.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 19, 2009, 02:14:01 AM
Werd, I just spellcapped that spell that was giving me so much trouble today on my first try. Thank god I had fraps recording. I ALMOST didn't bother thinking "imma need to warm up before I bother". will upload on youtube later. Feels good, eek. Just ignore the 151 attempts number. Probably could have done it in half that if I played each one thru for practice instead of jamming escape out of frusteration every time I screwed up, but it's just reflex *diesescape*.

Imma try out Espgaluda and Blue Ressurrection plus next, thanks again for the giant enemy wall of suggestions is approaching fast thingie.

edit: nm uploaded it for all to watch and make fun of my attempt # >=P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7UHxqBEDY8
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 19, 2009, 02:40:51 AM
Imma try out Espgaluda and Blue Ressurrection plus next, thanks again for the giant enemy wall of suggestions is approaching fast thingie.

If you're going to get Blue Wish Resurrection, be sure to get the original(ver. 1.02) instead of the Plus/blue label version.  It's a lot more balanced and better designed, and harder.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 19, 2009, 03:46:47 AM
If you're going to get Blue Wish Resurrection, be sure to get the original(ver. 1.02) instead of the Plus/blue label version.  It's a lot more balanced and better designed, and harder.

Plus the TLB music is better. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 19, 2009, 04:25:46 AM
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF----

Apparently, JAPJAC@shmups in Tokyo got his 7 days early, and he's shipping all pre-orders out today. (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=528950#p528950)

I wonder if NCSX will ship out early too. =<

*super-mega-jealous*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 19, 2009, 04:48:18 AM
I don't see myself playing Futari until at least late-December.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 19, 2009, 04:50:52 AM
I'm starting to wonder if NCSX will even have any in stock any time soon.

So much for pre-ordering it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Reprosa on November 19, 2009, 04:54:44 PM
I've been playing around with the old Cave shooters for the past month or so, and I just wanted to say that this thread has been a great help in both getting MAME working and learning some tricks for DoDonPachi. I don't think I'll ever do better than 1-ALL, but I've grown to slightly appreciate a game I used to hate when I was more of a casual player.

Sure wish I could 1cc a Lunatic though. Been working on that one for nearly a year now. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sapz on November 19, 2009, 05:28:20 PM
Finally managed to 1cc DoDonPachi's first loop, and with a life and three bombs left over. Two deaths on Stages 5 and 6. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 19, 2009, 06:28:43 PM
Awesome! Now play some ESPRa.De. or Guhwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 19, 2009, 06:39:01 PM
Also, evil_ash_xero@shmups called NCSX, he said that they should have a MushiFutari stock by Friday the 27th or the Monday after. Hopefully we'll get it by early December? =<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 19, 2009, 11:24:58 PM
I just pre-ordered mushi limited edition from NSCX
Hopefully it will ship safely when it does.

I'm a collector of cds, so I'm happy the ost comes with the game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 19, 2009, 11:43:31 PM
Early December is probably a good bet. Touhou 12 and 12.3 just arrived today and it took about 3.5 days for them to get here after I got notification from Paletweb that they had sent them out. But then again, I've had some orders take a week and a bit. Just pray that something like Elixir's Bayonetta debacle doesn't happen. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 20, 2009, 01:02:02 AM
My family's credit card is currently unavailable for use atm. Begging my friend to get it for me. He knows I pay back my loans quick, but he's really anal about ordering stuff online. I hope he doesn't not trust these sites and decide not to. I don't want to try and get it after the price jacks up to $200 like mushi 1 >=P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 20, 2009, 01:15:02 AM
Paypal not an option?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 20, 2009, 02:33:29 AM
Early December is probably a good bet. Touhou 12 and 12.3 just arrived today and it took about 3.5 days for them to get here after I got notification from Paletweb that they had sent them out. But then again, I've had some orders take a week and a bit. Just pray that something like Elixir's Bayonetta debacle doesn't happen. :P

Heh, I waited a good long while for Touhou 12, since I preordered it. Then again, Paletweb is in Japan. NCSX is in the US, so they already take care of customs and all that stuff-- so once it ships here, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to be in my excited little hands. I'm just hoping that I'm high enough on the queue that I get a copy before they run out. On the other hand, I ordered the Limited Edition, which I'm sure is ordered less because it's about $40 more, but then again they may get fewer of those in stock...

As for Elixir's debacle, I think he ordered Bayonetta from Play-Asia, who I've never dealt with before, so I don't know how they work. I just know they're in Hong Kong....I think.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 20, 2009, 02:42:28 AM
:parsee:x10 at all you people who actually have the money to actually buy Futari.  Well, I don't even have an Xbox, so I was sort of screwed from the beginning anyway.

btw:

(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/609/gb2a.th.jpg) (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/gb2a.jpg/)

Died at 1-7 midboss.  825k.  I'm getting close, it's only a matter of time. 8)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 20, 2009, 02:46:22 AM
 >:(

Is it just me, or does the screen shake every time the slowdown ends in Dodonpachi?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 20, 2009, 03:01:52 AM
>:(

Is it just me, or am I totally tsundere for Dodonpachi?

Why yes, I think you are.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 20, 2009, 03:06:04 AM
Heh, I waited a good long while for Touhou 12, since I preordered it. Then again, Paletweb is in Japan. NSCX is in the US, so they already take care of customs and all that stuff-- so once it ships here, it shouldn't take more than a couple of days to be in my excited little hands. I'm just hoping that I'm high enough on the queue that I get a copy before they run out. On the other hand, I ordered the Limited Edition, which I'm sure is ordered less because it's about $40 more, but then again they may get fewer of those in stock...

As for Elixir's debacle, I think he ordered Bayonetta from Play-Asia, who I've never dealt with before, so I don't know how they work. I just know they're in Hong Kong....I think.

Oh, for some reason I was under the impression that NSCX was based in Europe (never shopped there before).

And yeah, he got Bayonetta from Play-Asia, which is in Hong-Kong or thereabouts. I was only bringing it up as a joke. :P


I'm now thinking of picking Futari up long before I'm even able to play it, just in case there are supply issues or whatever. But then again, Death Smiles has been out for a while, and I think it's still available. Got some thinking to do...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 20, 2009, 03:12:13 AM
:parsee:x10 at all you people who actually have the money to actually buy Futari.  Well, I don't even have an Xbox, so I was sort of screwed from the beginning anyway.

btw:

(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/609/gb2a.th.jpg) (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/gb2a.jpg/)

Died at 1-7 midboss.  825k.  I'm getting close, it's only a matter of time. 8)

Don't be that jealous. I'm absolutely draining my account for this. As in, all I'll have left is the $5 to keep the account open and around $35 in my pocket. It's a stupid financial move for me, but dammit, it's worth it.

Nice gb2 score, too. :D

Oh, for some reason I was under the impression that NSCX was based in Europe (never shopped there before).

And yeah, he got Bayonetta from Play-Asia, which is in Hong-Kong or thereabouts. I was only bringing it up as a joke. :P


I'm now thinking of picking Futari up long before I'm even able to play it, just in case there are supply issues or whatever. But then again, Death Smiles has been out for a while, and I think it's still available. Got some thinking to do...

Yeah, NCSX is in New York, if I remember right.

I think picking up Futari is more of a priority than picking up the Xbox to play it--that is, the Xbox 360 Arcade models are always going down in price, when I can only see Futari going up.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 20, 2009, 03:16:12 AM
Azinth likes to twist my words.  >:(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 20, 2009, 03:40:53 AM
Hibachi-chan likes to appeal to my masochistic side.  ^o^

Dude, keep that to yourself.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 20, 2009, 04:31:22 AM
I do not see what is so wrong about masochism.  :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Shizumarashi Mayuzumi on November 20, 2009, 04:33:14 AM
I do not see what is so wrong about masochism.  :(

Absolutely nothing. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 20, 2009, 03:55:00 PM
Dodonpachi makes me hungry :V
(http://www.yesyoucangrill.com/img/son%20of%20hibachi%20coals%20start.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/FiveCornDogProntoPups.JPG)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 20, 2009, 04:09:33 PM
om nom nom nom

I just got done playing a few bosses in Practice mode in ESPGaluda, at full rank, in Kakusei Overheat mode. It's a blast.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 20, 2009, 04:17:39 PM
First thing I've done after getting my PC back was trying Dodonpachi. I didn't get worse at all :V

None of the loop 1 bosses seem that hard, except for the final st6 pattern....I fail it. And I can't take this game seriously.

Also got a 260 combo in st5, just 10 more and it would be a loop if I would 1cc it.
EDIT: Tried Donut's Hibachi save.
Less than 10 continues....I think. I've lost with bombs left many times since I've actually tried to dodge instead of bombspam.

But that last pattern....dick move, bro.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 20, 2009, 04:31:44 PM
DDP's bosses become at least twice as hard when you're not using a laser type, at least I've found.  Of course, when you use the laser the stages get a lot harder, so it sort of evens out. 

btw Banana, you should try out some other arcade shmups too while you're at it.  Give Gunbird 2 and Mars Matrix a spin.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 20, 2009, 04:38:55 PM
Hibachi 4cc second attempt. With only a tiny tiny clever piece of life left and it would be a 3cc.
 :'(
I probably will someday, as I don't need loli in my games
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 20, 2009, 04:46:21 PM
I probably will someday, as I don't need loli in my games

No loli in Gunbird 2? I beg to differ :V (http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/arcade/b/gb2tmt.htm)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 20, 2009, 04:51:56 PM
No loli in Gunbird 2? I beg to differ :V (http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/arcade/b/gb2tmt.htm)
But I see a man as well :V
Seriously, the next 3 shottypes in Touhou could be the Lemonparty guys and I would still enjoy that game.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 20, 2009, 04:54:05 PM
He's a lolicon, too :V

Also, I'm sure Drake could make your Lemonparty dream a reality~
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 20, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Gunbird 2 also has yaoi (http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/arcade/b/gb2tia.htm) and big hooters. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YSH95x7O4)  Truly a jack of all trades.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 20, 2009, 04:57:48 PM
Wait, is it really a shmup? :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 20, 2009, 05:13:10 PM
Of course it is. A really good one, too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YSH95x7O4)

Quote from: Azinth
yaoi

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/ainerape-1.gif)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 20, 2009, 07:09:49 PM
Is it just me, or is Hachi several times harder than Hibachi? :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 20, 2009, 07:39:49 PM
Some of his attacks are harder to dodge, but he only requires me to bomb 5 times, and Hibachi about 15+ times.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 20, 2009, 08:17:10 PM
:parsee:x10 at all you people who actually have the money to actually buy Futari.  Well, I don't even have an Xbox, so I was sort of screwed from the beginning anyway.

I don't have an xbox either, neither do I plan on getting one anytime soon. I'm pretty sure the price on Mushi will blast into outer space pretty quickly though, and the prices of xboxes will only go down more and more. Either that or they'll make an actually stable model. I want the limited edition myself but 35 bucks for a music cd is pretty high. I also think it'll be harder to get copies for.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 20, 2009, 09:16:11 PM
I played gunbird 2... Once.
At a convention.

It's awesome!


For Screwattack to not put it on their top 10 SHMUPS, Stuttering Craig was never a hardcore gamer. No matter how much of an internet personality he is.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 21, 2009, 02:32:35 AM
Apparently you can destroy the stage 3 1-up in Dodonpachi if you use a bomb...
Yes, I'm tsundere, I'll admit it.  :'(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 21, 2009, 07:17:49 AM
The generous hitbox collision detection of the original Blue Wish Resurrection makes the game so much fun. Even after a few drinks I could 1CC all the way up to half way through Stage 5. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 21, 2009, 08:05:16 PM
Can't do more than 6cc DDP 1st loop.
Why is it that I can't dodge anything compared to Touhou?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 21, 2009, 08:11:16 PM
If I got back into practice I could probably 1cc Dodonpachi's first loop again. The big roadblock is that you need to learn to trust that misdirecting walls and going through that tiny gap is a good idea with bombs in stock yet know when you screwed up.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 21, 2009, 10:19:23 PM
The generous hitbox collision detection of the original Blue Wish Resurrection makes the game so much fun. Even after a few drinks I could 1CC all the way up to half way through Stage 5. :V

I do hope you're talking about Original mode and not Hell or Accel, because if not then orz.  I can barely get to stage 3 or 4 in those modes even at my best.  I just really suck at that game for some reason.

So can someone explain Giga Wing's mechanics to me.  I know that collecting the medals and reflected bullets increases the multiplier, but what is the multiplier for?  Shooting enemies?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 22, 2009, 12:27:48 AM
I do hope you're talking about Original mode and not Hell or Accel, because if not then orz.  I can barely get to stage 3 or 4 in those modes even at my best.  I just really suck at that game for some reason.

So can someone explain Giga Wing's mechanics to me.  I know that collecting the medals and reflected bullets increases the multiplier, but what is the multiplier for?  Shooting enemies?

Yeah, it was Original mode of the non-Plus version of the game. I have no idea what Accel is in this version of the game though. :V

As for Giga Wing scoring, check here (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=4749) if you haven't. In general, the bulk of score comes from the end-of-stage bonus, where you get bonuses for breaking bosses, shooting down enemies, and not using bombs; the multiplier you build by collecting medals multiplies these bonuses. There are a few other multipliers which factor in as well, such as time remaining during boss fights; percentage of boss parts broken; percentage of enemies shot down, and so on.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 22, 2009, 12:43:34 AM
EDIT: Dammit Aisha, and I took all this time typing this-- and for a better guide too that trivializes mine :V


I'm not entirely sure. Here's what I've figured out so far:

In Giga Wing, you don't even gain points for collecting medals. Your medal count is your multiplier. You'll notice that when you start the game, each popcorn enemy is only worth 200 points. Collect a couple medals, they're worth 1000 or so each. Your medal count is directly related to your multiplier. You'll see that the gain works like this-- the number you get on-screen as you collect medals is your 'actual' medal count, but many medals are worth more than 1 point. Most are worth 5. The only medals that are worth 1 are the ones you get from using the reflect barrier.

So say you collected 5 5-point medals. Your counter on-screen will say +25.

However, your multiplier is that number right under the score. You'll notice that that number jumps up really fast, and that's because your medal count is added to the multiplier every time you collect a medal.

For example, if you were collecting 5-point medals:

Medal 1: Count = 5, Multiplier = x5
Medal 2: Count = 10, Multiplier = x15
Medal 3: Count = 15, Multiplier = x30
Medal 4: Count = 20, Multiplier = x50
Medal 5: Count = 25, Multiplier = x75

and so on. That's why your Reflect Barrier is mega-valuable in this game and you should do your best to remember the best times to use it. For example, if you're using Ruby, the first stage should have a bunch of larger airplanes that shoot these dense waves of bullet-strings at you. Reflect the bullets at them, as well as as many other bullets you can. This will cause a bunch of 1-point medals to fall. This is where your multiplier will spike.

So say you had your x75 multiplier from the earlier example. Now let's see what happens if you were to collect... say, 10 1-point medals:

Medal 1: Count = 26, Multiplier = x101
Medal 2: Count = 27, Multiplier = x128
Medal 3: Count = 28, Multiplier = x156
Medal 4: Count = 29, Multiplier = x185
Medal 5: Count = 30, Multiplier = x215
Medal 6: Count = 31, Multiplier = x246
Medal 7: Count = 32, Multiplier = x278
Medal 8: Count = 33, Multiplier = x311
Medal 9: Count = 34, Multiplier = x345
Medal 10: Count = 35, Multiplier = x380

So you can understand why your score skyrockets, especially when your medal count is in the thousands-- which is not hard to do at all, since you'll be collecting medals like crazy in this game. This is only a very small-scale example, because I'm horrible at even basic math and I didn't want to hurt myself :P

What you do have to consider is risk over reward, though. Don't go getting yourself killed over a multiplier boost, because once you die, your medal count that you worked for? Gone. So while your multiplier might stay the same, your ability to boost your multiplier is fucked.

So say your multiplier is at x150000. I'll use a random medal count here....

Medal 1: Count = 2345, Multiplier = x152345
Medal 2: Count = 2346, Multiplier = x154691
*death*
Medal 1: Count = 5, Multiplier = x154696
Medal 2: Count = 10, Multiplier = x154706
Medal 3: Count = 15, Multiplier = x154721

So you can understand why dying ruins your score. You may think that it's fine to die because you keep your multiplier, but you'll notice that your score gain will stagnate drastically when you die, because you can't keep adding to the multiplier. It is always better to live to increase your multiplier at a slower rate than it is to die trying to get a huge multiplier bonus.

That's what I've got, so far. Don't kill me if I'm wrong @_@
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 12:53:40 AM
Gah so my friend doesn't trust play asia or ncsx (or whatever it was called). So I gotta wait for my own Credit card to be  not maxxed out (thanks to family). which wont happen until the 8th of December... NOOOOO My mushi is prob gonna be sold out and 500 bucks by then *cries*.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 22, 2009, 12:54:58 AM
It won't be that drastic of a price jump. :V

Besides, you still need to get an Xbox, since you said you don't have one yet...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 12:56:28 AM
Gah so my friend doesn't trust play asia or ncsx (or whatever it was called). So I gotta wait for my own Credit card to be  not maxxed out (thanks to family). which wont happen until the 8th of December... NOOOOO My mushi is prob gonna be sold out and 500 bucks by then *cries*.
Well, I'm in for 3+ years before I'll be able to import ANYTHING. Sucks, I know.
By then, X360 Futari will be pretty much a rare artifact >.>
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 12:57:38 AM
It won't be that drastic of a price jump. :V

Besides, you still need to get an Xbox, since you said you don't have one yet...

My concern is getting the game before the price increases. Not to play it asap. I'm very patient and I'll be happy just knowing I can play it some day whenever I want to buy the xbox.

I've had too many great classic games slip past me because I refused to get them until AFTER I got the game console, Valkarie profile, Arc the lad, Symphony of the night, Suikoden... GRR at Xenogears. It took me years to get Xenogears, and when I finally did, they re-released it in a bestsellers edition right afterwards and it became easy as @#%%# to get (and cheaper). FAGHASKJFAS

Quote
Well, I'm in for 3+ years before I'll be able to import ANYTHING. Sucks, I know.
By then, X360 Futari will be pretty much a rare artifact >.>

Ouch...why?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 22, 2009, 01:01:58 AM
Well, I'm in for 3+ years before I'll be able to import ANYTHING. Sucks, I know.
By then, X360 Futari will be pretty much a rare artifact >.>

Order from NCSX then. They're in the US and take care of all the importing shit for you :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 22, 2009, 01:04:24 AM
Order from NCSX then. They're in the US and take care of all the importing shit for you :V

Wait? huh? What steps are there to importing other than giving your credit card # online, using your paypall crap, typing in your address, all the basic jazz? I've never ordered anything international outside of ebay, and I don't ever recall taking any extra steps that I already have to do for local orders anyway.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 01:09:50 AM
Order from NCSX then. They're in the US and take care of all the importing shit for you :V
Europe. Anything like that over here? :V

And it's because my parents live in the stone age.
They never pay with a credit card over the internet because they don't trust it. They don't even have paypal or anything, so yeah.

Basically, unless I can have it delivered straight to my house so I can pay it on the spot, it's completely out of my reach.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 22, 2009, 01:13:42 AM
Wait? huh? What steps are there to importing other than giving your credit card # online, using your paypall crap, typing in your address, all the basic jazz? I've never ordered anything international outside of ebay, and I don't ever recall taking any extra steps that I already have to do for local orders anyway.

Mostly the whole 'waiting on it to clear customs' stuff. Basically, you don't wait as long. :V

I've imported stuff before, and the wait for stuff to clear customs is just downright crazy, especially if you're really excited for the game to arrive. In my case, NCSX will be getting the game in stock just a day after the release date and would have it in my mailbox faster than I would if I were to order from, say, Play-Asia (who sold out of LE copies lightning fast anyway)

Europe. Anything like that over here? :V

And it's because my parents live in the stone age.
They never pay with a credit card over the internet because they don't trust it. They don't even have paypal or anything, so yeah.

Basically, unless I can have it delivered straight to my house so I can pay it on the spot, it's completely out of my reach.

As a matter of fact, yes.

According to spadgy@shmups (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=529543#p529543):
Quote
Just so people know, the store in London's Goodge Street (Game Focus) is getting some copies in, so you don't have to bother with postage. I think they might have them on the shelf one day after the JPN release date.

So if you live in London or can get there in a timely fashion, I'd say this is your best bet if importing is out of the question.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 22, 2009, 01:17:30 AM
It's possible to set up a Paypal account that draws money directly from your savings account. It might be worth looking at. I've never ordered from NCSX or Play-Asia, so I'm not sure if their Paypal option is restricted to payment via credit card only (if such a restriction is even possible).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 01:20:23 AM
So if you live in London or can get there in a timely fashion, I'd say this is your best bet if importing is out of the question.
brb airplane
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 22, 2009, 01:38:08 AM
Yeah, it was Original mode of the non-Plus version of the game. I have no idea what Accel is in this version of the game though. :V

You just go to Hell and press down or go to Heaven and press up; either way the selector will go off screen.  Then press select and it'll take you to Accel.  In the non-plus it's just Original at 2x speed, as opposed to plus where you could add it to any difficulty.

Giga Wing is really cool.  I actually think I might like playing it a bit more than Mars Matrix, mostly because it doesn't have the boatloads of input lag that MM has (and it doesn't rape me quite as thoroughly).  It might end up going on my 'shmups I actually want to get good at' list.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 22, 2009, 01:50:06 AM
Giga Wing is really cool.  I actually think I might like playing it a bit more than Mars Matrix, mostly because it doesn't have the boatloads of input lag that MM has (and it doesn't rape me quite as thoroughly).  It might end up going on my 'shmups I actually want to get good at' list.

I share this sentiment. Giga Wing is just plain fun. There's something about Mars Matrix that doesn't do it for me, and the input lag is part of it (although if it's MAME's fault, then I can't really blame the game).
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sapz on November 22, 2009, 03:42:46 AM
I've been playing Giga Wing for a couple of days, starting to get the hang of it. :V Easily the most fun I've ever had trying to play for score. Current best score is 6.4 trillion, and furthest I've managed on a continue is one hit away from killing the Stage 5 boss. >_<
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: beaver1231 on November 22, 2009, 03:25:13 PM
Giga Wing is fun and funny. E.g. Try to read your score in English after a 1cc. I don't think you can.

For Mars Matrix, I recommend the Dreamcast version, looks good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8xAt7wiGZY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8xAt7wiGZY)

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 22, 2009, 03:53:24 PM
Some people at Shmups forum have already got their copies of MushiFutari.

My jealousy is limitless.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 22, 2009, 04:26:26 PM
At least you have the money to import merchandise from foreign countries.  :-[
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 22, 2009, 07:30:13 PM
As I've said before, I really don't. I'm totally draining my account here; I haven't even been able to buy lunch at college because of this.

But I'm soldiering on because I just can't pass this up.  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 22, 2009, 07:31:02 PM
I told myself I wouldn't, but I'm starting to get excited about the release. Now every time I visit Shmups Forum I'll get jealous that everyone's playing Futari but me. :V Looking forward to impressions about port quality, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 22, 2009, 11:05:32 PM
Hells yeah! I just "captured" Hibachi's first attack. With this, I've beaten all of his attacks without dying or bombing except his last. Frankly I'm not going to put a lot of effort into capturing that attack. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 22, 2009, 11:08:47 PM
Hells yeah! I just "captured" Hibachi's first attack. With this, I've beaten all of his attacks without dying or bombing except his last. Frankly I'm not going to put a lot of effort into capturing that attack. :V
How are you supposed to do that one anyways? Just micrododge everything?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 22, 2009, 11:12:44 PM
I still haven't 1cced DDP yet. :V  I really should get around to that, seeing as how most of my previous attempts usually had me dying twice on stage 3 with full bombs and then 1ccing halfway through the stage 6 boss regardless.

edit: grammar is srs bzns
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 22, 2009, 11:31:33 PM
You all gotta play Change Air Blade with me on Kaillera sometime. I just got done playing with SFKhoa. That game is awesome in 2player!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 22, 2009, 11:38:49 PM
How are you supposed to do that one anyways? Just micrododge everything?

Everything Hibachi has except his fourth phase is micrododging. His fourth is fitting through holes in the walls he throws out whenever the green bullets trap you.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 22, 2009, 11:42:57 PM
How are you supposed to do that one anyways? Just micrododge everything?
Follow the lanes. The best I've done on that one is dying once and bombing like 6-7 times. :

I'm going to go for a three-death clear and record it for MASSIVE STREET CRED!11
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 23, 2009, 12:21:35 AM
Me needs to stop getting angry at the game every time my computer lags.... which is a lot more than usual today.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 23, 2009, 03:57:32 AM
Yay. I can no-miss every boss at maximum rank on Maniac Difficulty in Mushihimesama's Practice mode.

All that's left is to survive the stages, and I've got this 1CC. <3333
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 23, 2009, 04:05:49 AM
Ps2 coming on Thursday! I wonder if I can beat Matsuri to a Mushihimesama maniac 1cc.....
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 23, 2009, 04:38:48 AM
hahahahahaha


have fun with that

I've only had the game since Summer '08, and I'm just now coming close to beating it. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 23, 2009, 04:43:15 AM
Apparently Play-Asia will be "massively" discounting seven items for Black Friday. If one of those includes a Japanese 360 Arcade unit, I'll be on it faster than...Matsuri on a copy of Futari within arm's reach.


Which is probably pretty damn fast. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 23, 2009, 04:45:32 AM
Apparently Play-Asia will be "massively" discounting seven items for Black Friday. If one of those includes a Japanese 360 Arcade unit, I'll be on it faster than...Matsuri on a copy of Futari within arm's reach.


Which is probablydefinitely pretty damn fast. :V

As I've said before, even if Futari wasn't going to be region-free, it would be the game that would make me buy a J360 just so I could play it. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 23, 2009, 05:02:07 AM
hahahahahaha


have fun with that

I've only had the game since Summer '08, and I'm just now coming close to beating it. Just sayin'.

Is it really that hard? I'll have to see for myself to believe it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 23, 2009, 05:24:38 AM
It's not extremely extremely hard on Maniac, but if you're playing it right, it's hell. Let's just say I got so mad at the game a while back that I refused to touch it for a few months. Like many shmups, on the outside, it looks pretty basic-- dodge the walls of bullets, keep your counter up, and so on-- but there's a lot more going on behind the scenes that you're going to need to learn. Mushihimesama will change your thought process on shmups in general-- and it's incredibly frustrating.

Now that I really have a feel for the game, I love it.

ULTRA mode will rape you, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 23, 2009, 09:06:08 PM
It's not extremely extremely hard on Maniac, but if you're playing it right, it's hell. Let's just say I got so mad at the game a while back that I refused to touch it for a few months. Like many shmups, on the outside, it looks pretty basic-- dodge the walls of bullets, keep your counter up, and so on-- but there's a lot more going on behind the scenes that you're going to need to learn. Mushihimesama will change your thought process on shmups in general-- and it's incredibly frustrating.

Now that I really have a feel for the game, I love it.

ULTRA mode will rape you, though.

Mushi doesn't seem as loli-tastic as Touhou or eXceed or whatever, but it has that light-atmosphere that makes me enjoy shooters more. Kinda like a cutemup without being a cutemup you know? Anyway, I find I get frusterated a whole lot less with them in general for some reason. Silly I know but it's true.

My problem with Mushi is that alot of boss attack patterns have 2 parts to them, just like every other shmup

1: lines of bullets that look like you're not supposed to fly thru and survive
2: gaps between bullets that you're supposed to fly though, even if small.

Thing with mushi is that almost every boss has both until about 5-10 seconds of a given attack, and then you see no openings, so you're FORCED to fly thru the kind that ordinarely you wouldn't attempt to fly thru. I always hear that the hitbox is very small so you can fly thru stuff you normally thought you couldn't. But it still leads me to being confused as to why there are #2 gaps at all in the first place in that case. Am I just flying in an incorrect pattern screwing myself? Or does the game just do this...for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 23, 2009, 09:58:02 PM
Tried Dodonpachi again.....3cc, got to the end stage 5 on the first credit. Score was something like 13m....didn't get the secret extend.

I could probably do better, but I've bombed on st1 and st2 bosses, yet I've perfected st3 boss when I was out of bombs.


St2 and st3 bosses. Autobomb pretty much.
The stuff which shoots purple lasers straight and aimed blue bullets at you. I always get walled in.

And the stuff which shoots pink bullets straight down. St5 IIRC.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 23, 2009, 11:05:21 PM
Mushi doesn't seem as loli-tastic as Touhou or eXceed or whatever, but it has that light-atmosphere that makes me enjoy shooters more. Kinda like a cutemup without being a cutemup you know? Anyway, I find I get frusterated a whole lot less with them in general for some reason. Silly I know but it's true.

My problem with Mushi is that alot of boss attack patterns have 2 parts to them, just like every other shmup

1: lines of bullets that look like you're not supposed to fly thru and survive
2: gaps between bullets that you're supposed to fly though, even if small.

Thing with mushi is that almost every boss has both until about 5-10 seconds of a given attack, and then you see no openings, so you're FORCED to fly thru the kind that ordinarely you wouldn't attempt to fly thru. I always hear that the hitbox is very small so you can fly thru stuff you normally thought you couldn't. But it still leads me to being confused as to why there are #2 gaps at all in the first place in that case. Am I just flying in an incorrect pattern screwing myself? Or does the game just do this...for whatever reason.

Huh? I think Reco's cuter than most Touhou characters, as far as 'official' art goes (fanart doesn't count in this case)-- and not to mention, each stage is something different (aside from 1 and 5, which are both forest stages), and stage 4 has to be one of the most hypnotizing stages in any shmup I've ever played. It's a glowing crystalline cavern, and Namiki absolutely nailed the musical theme for it, and it feels even more fitting if you know the story behind Mushihimesama. The story itself is actually a little more depressing than you'd expect. (http://world-of-arcades.net/Cave/Mushihimesama/Stories.htm)

Anyway, that's not particularly the case, when it comes to bosses. To be fully honest, I don't see bosses (aside from the Stage 5 boss) as anything more than a bigger enemy. They don't live long and if you know what you're doing, it becomes second nature to rip through them-- and honestly, most bosses' patterns are nothing more than streaming with a large amount of intimidation. Fundamentally, I'd consider very few boss patterns to be 'hard'.

Is there a certain pattern in particular that you're getting hung up on? I can probably tell you how to do it more effectively.

For the rare few patterns that overwhelm me, I use those lovely bombs, since they seem to work well enough to get me to the next pattern or the end of the pattern that I don't think I can handle. If this is the PS2 port you're talking about, here's a protip: Map your bomb button to L1 or L2 or something you can hit at a split-second's notice.

But really, it's the stages that are the real challenge in this game, both score-wise and survival-wise. You may start going stages 1 and 2 swimmingly in survival mode, but good luck using that mentality in the super-score-lucrative stages 3, 4, and 5. It's also pretty easy to buzz through stages 1 and 2 while point-blanking everything for a sweet counter bonus, but doing that's going to get you killed in stages 3, 4, and 5-- where the difficulty starts to really kick in. Stage 3, honestly, is really nothing more than creeping and streaming, but the real difficulty is knowing when and where to keep your lasers so you can keep that number up. I know a lot of you don't like playing for score, but I will say it's almost a necessity to at least try in this game-- it's a lot of what makes the game fun, and it's what gives you two extends in the game as well, and if you don't even attempt to keep that counter up, you'll find it incredibly difficult to get those extends, because the base point value of all of those enemies are worth next to nothing-- and bosses, even if you get your counter up to 50,000+-- won't net you any more than a couple million points. The PS2 default extends are at 10,000,000 and 25,000,000. Ideally, you should have both of those by the end of stage 2, and then there's the extend at the end of stage 3, which, while incredibly intimidating at first, is actually pretty easy to get after some practice.

Now where this game really will get you-- and me as well-- is the beginning of stage 4. I hope you know your hitbox well, because that's what will make the difference between life and death. There are some insanely dense streams of bullets that you have to misdirect and fly through, so you need to trust your hitbox more than you have in any other game. It's a lot smaller than you think. The rest of stage 4 plays itself, honestly. Just destroy the heads of those water dragon/centipede/segmented things, then the wings/fins, then ride on its back, destroying each segment, while dodging the simple streams flying at you. Destroy the tail to turn every bullet on the screen into points, and repeat. Point-blank the stage 4 boss as much as you can to minimize the time you have to deal with its second pattern, which is pretty rough. From there, it's a lot easier (and even a lot of the better players do this) to simply pop out a bomb and point-blank the sucker until he's dead.

Stage 5 is incredibly long, and difficulty-wise it's like a less intense version of the beginning of stage 4. There's a lot of intimidation involved, especially with the Pitcher Plants that fire out what seems to be an impossible ring of bullets. Just know that they will die faster than you think, and every bullet on the screen will be cancelled out-- and trust me, there will be a few hundred aimed directly at you. Repeat that pretty much to the midboss clipdeath bastard, then repeat the same method to the end of the stage, bombing when you have to. There is no shame in bombing. You will not be punished for using them. Remember this. Finally, the stage 5 boss. Point-blank it as much as you can in the first phase-- believe me, it's easier than it looks. The second phase is definitely worthy of being called 'final-boss material'. Stuff will be thrown at you in all directions. Bomb, dodge, or die. If you've got one or two lives in stock by this point, you've got it pretty much beat as long as you don't get overconfident.

Heh, look at me, talking as if I've beaten the game. I plan on getting that 1cc this week, dammit. It's so close.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 23, 2009, 11:41:17 PM
Stage 4's music (and the stage in general) is just fucking gorgeous. Stage 5's BGM also has a catchy melody.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 24, 2009, 12:03:46 AM
So I decided to play Ketsui Death Label on the train to school (and back home) today... can you guess what happened?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 24, 2009, 12:04:59 AM
Just because it fits the conversation so well, you guys need to watch this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH98flexByo&feature=related)


So I decided to play Ketsui Death Label on the train to school (and back home) today... can you guess what happened?

How bad did you get ruined :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 24, 2009, 12:14:04 AM
Just because it fits the conversation so well, you guys need to watch this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH98flexByo&feature=related)


How bad did you get ruined :P

Think Embodiment of Scarlet Failure.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 24, 2009, 12:27:27 AM
Is your voice as annoying as Kefit's, too? ~(ー。ー)ヽ

"SHUT THE FUCK UP, MOOGY"
"Oh, I'm sorry~"
"YOU SHOULD BE!"
"Oh, I'm gonna cry~"
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 24, 2009, 02:45:45 AM
Thanks to you guys, now that I'm home I have a huge urge to put in Mushihime-sama and spend some time with it. Must resist...and do more work instead. D:
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 24, 2009, 02:47:17 AM
Do it. You know you want to~

That being said, I have homework to do before I go for another 1cc attempt...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 06:34:01 AM
lol, yeah I know I said imma try ESPGaluda next, but.. damn I wanna play mushi.

As for Mushi's story being depressing. I didn't assume it wasn't. You can kinda tell when you beat the game and see her have that kid die in her arms or whatever. But just playing it without really thinking about it, the colorful bugs, the music, etc. I just feel less annoyed when I die for some reason.

As for the bosses being easy, just bear in mind that I'm still a STG newbie really. I haven't played any as much as Touhou, and I haven't even ATTEMPTED most lunatic difficulties on touhou, nor hard on a couple, just haven't had enough time yet. So, Mushi bosses are quite difficult for me still.

As for the stages being harder, I find that memorizing the spawn points of certain enemies  (mostly the ones that clear the screen on death, but definately the ones that flood the screen with bullets by themselves apply too) make the stages *soooo* much easier. Stage 4 is indeed difficult, but I'm newbie enough to have trouble with 3 as well. I have a real hard time picking up those bombs or powerups that drop (I forget which, haven't played for awhile) after you kill the left wing-thingie and are about to head towards the final section before the boss without actually USING a bomb in the process. I also can't beat the final section before the boss without bombing it. Once everything starts shooting at once I mean. I just panic and can't take it yet. Not to mention they seem to come from pretty much everywhere, so bullets practically spawn on top of me too. am I supposed to start at the top instead of the bottom? I don't know. I also don't know how to get that 1up. I hear you kill the thingie near the bottom middle last and you get a 1up. but I swear I do that and it doesn't happen still, so I dunno.

My personal fave thing about mushi though is that it is by far the most fun shooter I have yet to play for the stages. While I hate memorizing stages to get past them, mushi does it in a way that makes it fun. Plus you don't absolutely HAVE to, you just do if you're not a a great player like me (I mean like me, you aren't an uber player). The scoring system I actually do somewhat care about. Not because I want to have a high score, but because I want the extra lives >=P. But I don't really understand exactly how it works other than collecting yellow gems = points.

My biggest gripe is I hate how focus mode works. I mean, I play alot better than my own skill level with these games if I can enter and exit focus mode. alot of the times I tap that button rapidly while moving about. I notice alot of the super replay videos in various shooters do NOT do this, but I do and every time I can it lets me do stuff that would normally scrag me. Unfortunately this is simply not an option with mushi since your focus/non focus mode is "holding shoot down for longer than a second" *ARRGHAGHHGAHHGH!!!!*

Newbie question:
the 3 shot types. I understand it's wide and slow, medium and medium, narrow and fast. Do they all have the same power though? It seems to be the case. If so, does ANYBODY like wide and slow? I mean the wide shot type just doesn't seem to be very important in this game even on stages, and the slow movement makes it absolute hell for picking up those yellow gem thingies.

I wanna play mushi-futari *sigh*. Im prob never gonna get that game *cries*. My stupid brother just lost his keys, it's gonna cost 100 bucks+ to replace em, and he needs em fast. So Imma have to loan him some cash...Which means my payday for my Mushi2 order will get delayed AGAIN. Prob gonna be sold out for sure by the time I can afford it now. whyyyyyy
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 24, 2009, 07:13:20 AM
I tried looking up some information about Giga Wing 2 just out of curiosity, and I stumbled across its OST on youtube.  It's... really awesome, like leagues better than GW1's (even though I also like its music).  The atmosphere is also completely different.  All the overly dramatic music, celestial imagery, floating warships, it was like Final Fantasy in shmup form or something.

So is it supposed to be any good(GW 2, that is)?  I dunno, I might have to think about getting a Dreamcast someday.  Gunbird 2, Gigawing 1/2, Mars Matrix, it's just got too much good stuff.  I would certainly be more bang for my buck than getting a fucking 360.:P

But it would also mean I have to abandon my precious keyboard.  D:
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 24, 2009, 07:23:58 AM
I have yet to beat a Touhou game on Hard or Lunatic, either, not because I can't, but because I don't feel like dedicating the time to a game I've already beaten on Normal, really. And I'm being fully serious here-- Mushi bosses are easier than the stages themselves, no matter what kind of experience you have.

If you're really that convinced that you're a 'newbie', go for ESPGaluda for now. It's much easier and more accessible overall.

As for Mushi: Yes, it's best if you memorize where enemies spawn. It's vital, actually, if you want to keep that number up.

Stage 3: Oh, Stage 3. So simple, yet so hard at the same time. A good 90% of the stage is slowly creeping along the bottom or sides of the screen, and everything will miss you. The last 10% is the challenging part. As for the part near the end of the stage. Hold your autofire button down and stream the enemy bullets while dodging the waves from the giant enemy. It's really hard to explain, but once you see the openings and practice it, it's not so bad.

As for the end of the stage with the 1up: First, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE TRACE OPTIONS. THIS IS IMPORTANT AND MAKES THE WHOLE THING EASIER. Formation options may make the part before this piece and the beginning of stage 4 easier, but you'll most likely destroy the core before you get the 1up if you use Formation.

The easy way to get the 1up: Wait in the center of the screen before all of the body parts start to flash. Then fly over to the right (or left, your preference I suppose) and destroy the 4 body parts. Then go over to the other side and destroy the other 4 parts. Then destroy the core. 1up get.

Don't be intimidated by the bullet hell here. To be fully honest, the most dangerous part of this is the larger, straight moving bullets, because you'll fly right into them if you panic. The smaller waves that spawn over and over are all aimed at you, which means a slight tap in a different direction will make them all miss. Just don't stay there too long, or the next wave will aim right at you again. Always leave yourself an opening. When you do it once or twice, you'll rarely screw it up.

The hard, but stylish way to do it: Start in the center and tap your A button slowly at a steady pace, around 4 times a second. When all of the body parts flash, tap C as fast as you can for as long as you can. This will make your counter skyrocket at an insane pace. I won't explain how this works right now, because it's long and complicated. Then destroy all 4 parts on one side, holding C while tapping A. This destroys them faster. When you've destroyed them all on one side, work your way over to the other quickly while tapping C at a medium pace. This will keep your counter up without dealing too much damage to the core. Once at the other side, destroy all 4 parts, then destroy the core. 1up get.

Focus mode: You can have a pseudo-focus mode when you hold A to get into focus mode, then hold C and tap A quickly. This will keep your options closer, deal extra damage, and you'll enter Focus mode faster this way. Simply hold A down-- you don't even have to let go of C.

Shot types:

S-Power: Narrow and very powerful, and you move stupid fast. I hate this shot type, actually. It's fine in Original, but it's just ridiculous in Maniac and above.
W-Power: Very wide, and you move slowly.
M-Power: A mix of the two. Slightly more powerful and narrow than W-Power, and slightly slower than S-power.

Believe it or not, W-Power is the absolute best scoring shot type in the game, and it's very well-liked. While S- and M-Powers allow you to shoot faster and rack up a counter faster, they do not have the major benefit W-Power gives you, and that is the ability to skyrocket. Skyrocketing is the term used to describe how skilled players can make the counter jump extremely high against midbosses and certain enemies, which in turn allows you to build your score counter to something insanely high. Score-wise, it's by far and away the best shot type in the game-- not to mention the slow movement is a godsend in the the thick bullet hell. However, skyrocketing only matters in Maniac and Ultra modes. Use whatever you want in Original, and use S-Power most of the time in Arrange.

Protip: Don't worry about the yellow gems on the ground. They're worth next to nothing in the long run in Maniac and above. Neither are the gems you get from destroying enemies. In Mushihimesama, your main source of points, believe it or not, are the tiny popcorn enemies you kill by the dozen. See, everything in Mushihimesama has a very low base point value. Because of this, you want your counter to be as high as possible at all times, and you don't want it to drop. You may think one or two popcorn enemies may not be worth anything on their own, and you'd be right-- they aren't. However, when you're killing a constant stream of them at a x30,000+ counter? That adds up, and it adds up fast. The key to keeping your counter up lies solely on keeping your option-lasers on enemies at all times, and point-blank everything you can, especially big enemies. Sometimes it's better to not directly attack some larger enemies and let your lasers slowly kill them. This will not only boost your counter higher, but it will also keep your counter up while you're waiting for more popcorn swarms to show up.

If your only interest in scoring is to get the two extends, the best advice I can give you is to learn how to get a large counter boost by skyrocketing the stage 2 midboss, and carrying that (and raising it, if you can) through the rest of the stage. No, it is not easy. Yes, you will be very frustrated with it for a while. But it's a skill worth learning.

Here, watch these videos. maco gives a great pattern to follow. Don't be disappointed if you can't even get near his score, because you can't, and neither can I, by normal means. He's using Rapid Fire in these videos, which basically translates to skyrocketing perfection, something only the most dextrous can do by hand.
Stage 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkcoDjATlgs&feature=PlayList&p=D36CB0249DD816EC&index=7)
Stage 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7Ruek27WPU&feature=PlayList&p=D36CB0249DD816EC&index=6)

That's all I can really say for now. Just keep at it.

I tried looking up some information about Giga Wing 2 just out of curiosity, and I stumbled across its OST on youtube.  It's... really awesome, like leagues better than GW1's (even though I also like its music).  The atmosphere is also completely different.  All the overly dramatic music, celestial imagery, floating warships, it was like Final Fantasy in shmup form or something.

So is it supposed to be any good(GW 2, that is)?  I dunno, I might have to think about getting a Dreamcast someday.  Gunbird 2, Gigawing 1/2, Mars Matrix, it's just got too much good stuff.  I would certainly be more bang for my buck than getting a fucking 360.:P

But it would also mean I have to abandon my precious keyboard.  D:

Oh, hell yes. Giga Wing 2 is really, really good. And if you're planning on getting a Dreamcast, they really aren't that expensive anymore. Mars Matrix is probably one of the most expensive games on your list, and will easily cost more than the system itself. You're better off sticking to MAME for that one and buying a stick for your Dreamcast instead, because Dreamcast controllers suck.

However, the 360, even if you don't go for a Japanese console, has Mushi Futari, Raiden Fighters Aces, Raiden IV, Ikaruga, and Triggerheart Exelica (which is a game I often forget that I fucking ADORE). If it were my call, I'd say go for the 360, because there are games there that you can't play on MAME, where most Dreamcast shmups, you can. Not only that, but Raiden Fighters Aces and Raiden IV are super-cheap and really accessible. Ikaruga and Triggerheart Exelica are XBLA games, $10 a piece. There are a handful of other shmups on XBLA that I might be forgetting too, but let's not forget the massive selection of other arcade games on there too. I may be a huge shmup fan, but I love other arcade games a lot, too :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 24, 2009, 07:30:17 AM
Instead of playing Mushihime-sama, I decided to pull out a random shmup from my MAME folder and play that instead. It turned out to be Tatsujin Oh. I'll finish the 1CC tomorrow. (I'm using save states--don't tell anyone. :V)

What do you guys play Mushihime-sama on? Last time I played, it was on a plasma and the bullets left purple streaks everywhere, which is something I couldn't get used to.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 24, 2009, 07:33:22 AM
CRT all the way, for the PS2 CAVE stuff and older games. They all look like shit on a LCD screen, because they weren't designed for them. Fortunately, newer games don't have this problem.

Tatsujin Oh is a pretty cool game, too. Never was so fond of the whole 'die and lose everything' aspect of it, though. Then again, if you're savestating it, I guess you don't need to worry about that xD
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 24, 2009, 07:45:13 AM
Oh, hell yes. Giga Wing 2 is really, really good. And if you're planning on getting a Dreamcast, they really aren't that expensive anymore. Mars Matrix is probably one of the most expensive games on your list, and will easily cost more than the system itself. You're better off sticking to MAME for that one and buying a stick for your Dreamcast instead, because Dreamcast controllers suck.

Only problem with that is that I find MM way too hard to play because of the massive input lag.  I don't know if it's a widespread problem or if it's just my crappy computer, but the control response in MM is absolutely horrible, even compared to the rest of the games on MAME.  I can do the first stage fine enough, but from stage 2 on it just becomes hell trying to do those precise shield timings with several frames of input delay.  I would get the Dreamcast version just because it would actually be playable.

Quote
However, the 360, even if you don't go for a Japanese console, has Mushi Futari, Raiden Fighters Aces, Raiden IV, Ikaruga, and Triggerheart Exelica (which is a game I often forget that I fucking ADORE). If it were my call, I'd say go for the 360, because there are games there that you can't play on MAME, where most Dreamcast shmups, you can. Not only that, but Raiden Fighters Aces and Raiden IV are super-cheap and really accessible. Ikaruga and Triggerheart Exelica are XBLA games, $10 a piece. There are a handful of other shmups on XBLA that I might be forgetting too, but let's not forget the massive selection of other arcade games on there too. I may be a huge shmup fan, but I love other arcade games a lot, too :D

Eh, I don't know, the games on the DC just sort of interest me more.  Plus, even if a lot of them run on MAME, having an actual physical copy of the game would still be nice.  Of course, I wouldn't think about getting a new console until I get some kind of job, which won't be until May at the very earliest, so I'm sort of getting ahead of myself now. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 07:47:07 AM
Instead of playing Mushihime-sama, I decided to pull out a random shmup from my MAME folder and play that instead. It turned out to be Tatsujin Oh. I'll finish the 1CC tomorrow. (I'm using save states--don't tell anyone. :V)

What do you guys play Mushihime-sama on? Last time I played, it was on a plasma and the bullets left purple streaks everywhere, which is something I couldn't get used to.

I got a CRT myself, seems to work fine.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 24, 2009, 07:51:00 AM
Only problem with that is that I find MM way too hard to play because of the massive input lag.  I don't know if it's a widespread problem or if it's just my crappy computer, but the control response in MM is absolutely horrible, even compared to the rest of the games on MAME.  I can do the first stage fine enough, but from stage 2 on it just becomes hell trying to do those precise shield timings with several frames of input delay.  I would get the Dreamcast version just because it would actually be playable.

To be fully honest, MM plays pretty much the same on my computer and Dreamcast. Then again, the DC version would be cheaper in the long run than upgrading your computer...

Quote
Eh, I don't know, the games on the DC just sort of interest me more.  Plus, even if a lot of them run on MAME, having an actual physical copy of the game would still be nice.  Of course, I wouldn't think about getting a new console until I get some kind of job, which won't be until May at the very earliest, so I'm sort of getting ahead of myself now. :V

It is nice to own them, yes :3

If it's really what you want, then go for it! :P

Honestly, getting to play as Morrigan in Gunbird 2 is worth the money right there. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 24, 2009, 07:54:26 AM
I found Dai Ou Jou and ESPGaluda on a plasma TV to be great, provided that everything was set to 4:3 aspect ratio. Ibara and Mushihime-sama though..; I guess between the port quality of those two and my choice of display is why I have such a hard time getting into them. I wish I had room for a CRT.

I really hope they didn't fuck it up with Futari. Looking forward to reading people's impressions.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 08:29:08 AM
I found Dai Ou Jou and ESPGaluda on a plasma TV to be great, provided that everything was set to 4:3 aspect ratio. Ibara and Mushihime-sama though..; I guess between the port quality of those two and my choice of display is why I have such a hard time getting into them. I wish I had room for a CRT.

I really hope they didn't fuck it up with Futari. Looking forward to reading people's impressions.

I know very little about shooters compared to you guys, but I could swear I read somewhere or another that Cave is somehow more involved with the xbox port of futari than they were with the original to get it done "Right". So.. Hopefully that'll put your mind at ease >=P.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 24, 2009, 07:56:12 PM
Cleared Hibachi's second attack :V

A few questions about DDP:
1) How exactly do you shotgun Hachi? Just go up to him at the beginning when the parts are together and laser him?

2) What's the diff between laser and shot types? The ingame description is a little confusing :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 24, 2009, 08:02:42 PM
You do more damage when you're close enough to the enemy that the aura surrounding you touches them. That's what shotgunning is.

Also to my understanding laser types make the laser able to reach max power and keep it from going down to minimum power upon death, and same for the shot type. For the one you didn't power up, strength will go down to minimum if you die.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 24, 2009, 08:18:00 PM
2) What's the diff between laser and shot types? The ingame description is a little confusing :V

Shot type has stronger shot and weaker laser; laser type has stronger laser and weaker shot. See fighter descriptions here (http://www.shmups.com/beepreying/old/strategy/index.html). The weapon corresponding to your type selection is also obviously more pronounced.

And yeah, also what Donut said.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 24, 2009, 08:19:57 PM
Some people who preordered from NCSX have had their accounts charged, and their Mushi will ship out tomorrow.

As of right now, I am not one of those people, at the moment at least.  :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 24, 2009, 08:20:15 PM
Shot type:
- faster unfocused speed;
- stronger and wider shots (can shoot through some destructible projectiles);
- when hit, shot powers down by 1 level, laser by 3.

Laser type:
- faster focused speed;
- stronger and wider laser (can shoot through some destructible projectiles);
- when hit, shot powers down by 3 levels, laser by 1.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 24, 2009, 08:29:50 PM
So....if I understand it correctly, all 3 fighters have same laser power in laser type?

I could probably get further with C-S then, as A-S got me to the end of st5...eliminating these vertically shooting tanks at once should save me some bombs and I should be able to easily get the st3 life.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 24, 2009, 08:45:51 PM
That's correct, laser power is the same between all fighters. Actually, the main difference between laser type laser and shot type laser is not in strength (it's something like 74 units per frame vs. 66 units per frame), but in width, speed of activation, aura (shot types lack it), and movement speed.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 24, 2009, 09:25:53 PM
Hibachi 3cc now. Not going to get any better in the next year most likely :V

EDIT: 1st loop 3cc, almost 2cc.....fun part is, I've died 2 times on st2 and still made it all the way to the st4 boss.

Maybe I can 1cc the 1st loop :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 24, 2009, 10:06:22 PM
Some people who preordered from NCSX have had their accounts charged, and their Mushi will ship out tomorrow.

As of right now, I am not one of those people, at the moment at least.  :(

STFU I don't care!!! I really don't! nope *cries in corner*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 25, 2009, 12:07:26 AM
Quote
Dear NCS Customer,
 
Thanks for your recent order for the Mushihimesama Futari Limited Edition. Please note that there is a possibility that we won't receive enough copies of the game to fill recent orders due to short-shipments from the publisher Cave.
 
In the event that there is a shortage of the limited edition, would you be interested in switching your order to the regular edition of Mushihimesama Futari? We will begin receiving the game tomorrow and any remaining shipments from Japan will arrive on Friday after the Thanksgiving holiday and we will send you another update on Friday. Thanks for your attention.

Regards,
 
NCSX, Inc
Web: www.ncsx.com
 

Shop: www.ncsxshop.com
 

Blog: http://ncsx.blogspot.com (http://"http://ncsx.blogspot.com")

Bullshit. I payed nearly 150$ when it was converted to Canadian dollars T_T

I guess we`ll see on Friday since I pre-ordered on the 19th. I hope and pray they can get a copy for me or give me a HUGE refund.

I'll admit I'm kind of panicked about this.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 25, 2009, 12:20:13 AM
Do you get hit with duty fees when ordering from NCSX to Canada? :| I had a really bad experience when it came to duty fees one time...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 25, 2009, 12:24:21 AM
Duty Fees? Where?
I didn't see any mentioning, at least.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 25, 2009, 12:42:01 AM
I was just wondering. This one time I ordered a pair of headphones from a US-based store and was charged something like $75 in customs/duty fees at the door. So I was wondering if I should expect the same from NCSX if I were to order from them, since they are also based in the US.

Of all the times I ordered from Paletweb, I have never been charged anything extra.


I'm not really sure how it works.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 25, 2009, 01:02:17 AM
I was just wondering. This one time I ordered a pair of headphones from a US-based store and was charged something like $75 in customs/duty fees at the door. So I was wondering if I should expect the same from NCSX if I were to order from them, since they are also based in the US.

Of all the times I ordered from Paletweb, I have never been charged anything extra.


I'm not really sure how it works.

I'm expecting you do. And Lishy, duty fees are never ever announced until it arrives at your door. It's really stupid.
I ALWAYS have bad experiences with ridiculous duty fees if they ship using UPS. If it's UPS, you can expect duty fees to cost at least half the cost of the product itself. One time I bought a snes game cart for just 35 bucks, and paid 40 bucks for duty. stupid.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 25, 2009, 02:56:41 AM
I'm patiently waiting for people to receive their copies and attest it's really region free so I can order mine ASAP!

*fingers hovers above ORDER NOW button at playasia >_>*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 03:03:35 AM
I'm patiently waiting for people to receive their copies and attest it's really region free so I can order mine ASAP!

*fingers hovers above ORDER NOW button at playasia >_>*

Here you go! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO5YtaSG_78)

Order away~
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 25, 2009, 03:39:08 AM
Thanks!

Where can I find the limited ed for sale?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 03:45:47 AM
Well.. erm... you might be a little too late for that right now. As far as I know, it's sold out at every site I've had my eye on. They seem to have plenty of the Standard version in stock, but I doubt that's much consolation.

Someone will be bound to sell their LE on the Shmups forum trading station eventually-- or P-A or NCSX may get some more in stock, who knows :-\

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 25, 2009, 03:53:04 AM
well the only difference was the music cd, right?

if that's it then i'm fine with the standard one.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 25, 2009, 04:47:34 AM
I played Mushi today~

Strangely enough, on my new LCD TV, it did not look as bad as I remember (at least Manic didn't). What a hard game. :V I think when I get set up with Futari, I'm going to have to go with a smaller display, like a computer monitor; I was having a hard time paying attention to the whole TV screen at once, although it could be that I'm just not used to it yet.

I'm expecting you do. And Lishy, duty fees are never ever announced until it arrives at your door. It's really stupid.
I ALWAYS have bad experiences with ridiculous duty fees if they ship using UPS. If it's UPS, you can expect duty fees to cost at least half the cost of the product itself. One time I bought a snes game cart for just 35 bucks, and paid 40 bucks for duty. stupid.

Yeah this shit is really stupid. But thanks for the clarification. Do you know if these fees only apply when using couriers like DHL and UPS? When ordering from Paletweb, I always go with EMS shipping which ends up arriving via Canada Post, and I've never been charged with any additional fees so far.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 25, 2009, 04:51:10 AM
Mushihimesama Futanari LE contains the cds and possibly plates for your 360 and..... Phone cards!?
Yeah, I only heard that. I can't confirm. But phone cards? I don't know why that either.


Anyways, it looks like it's selling like hotcakes.
I hope it sells well. Because if it sells very well, I'm sure Cave would jump on the console bangwagon and revive home shmups. Touhou has dominated long enough


Anyways, I still hope and pray I get my copy. I'm not paying since it is my birthday present, so I don't care how damn expensive. I just want my insect shmup!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 25, 2009, 05:17:59 AM
I played Mushi today~

Strangely enough, on my new LCD TV, it did not look as bad as I remember (at least Manic didn't). What a hard game. :V I think when I get set up with Futari, I'm going to have to go with a smaller display, like a computer monitor; I was having a hard time paying attention to the whole TV screen at once, although it could be that I'm just not used to it yet.

Yeah this shit is really stupid. But thanks for the clarification. Do you know if these fees only apply when using couriers like DHL and UPS? When ordering from Paletweb, I always go with EMS shipping which ends up arriving via Canada Post, and I've never been charged with any additional fees so far.

I didn't know you can really pick what shipping method retailers use to ship to you to be honest. I don't know if it's all couriers or just UPS. As for how much it costs, that is completely random. It's really based on how much of a douchebag someone working for UPS feels like being. I really think the number they make up is completely arbitrary. Probably some garbage or another invented thanks to our very leet "Free trade agreement"
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 07:04:52 AM
well the only difference was the music cd, right?

if that's it then i'm fine with the standard one.

Pretty much. I'm a huge Manabu Namiki fan, so it kind of sold itself in my case. If you want, I'll see if I can get the music to you one way or another. :)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 07:59:32 AM
Hahaha
Quote from: #shmups

[02:32:37] <@bVork> oh what
[02:32:41] <@bVork> why did the mushi price go up :(
[02:34:03] <deadtech> Magical beetlegirl panty price increases
[02:34:11] <deadtech> A sad fact of life.
[02:34:30] <Core_> What DON'T they tax these days?
[02:34:41] <pui> beetlegirl panties are running low
[02:35:02] <pui> and thus the market reacts accordingly

So yeah, P-A raised the price. Apparently they just now found out about the region-free stuff.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 25, 2009, 08:13:49 AM
I probably should have Cave'd in (haha see what I did there?) and ordered the standard edition.

I think I will.. soon.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 25, 2009, 09:18:54 AM
I probably should have Cave'd in (haha see what I did there?) and ordered the standard edition.

I think I will.. soon.
I want the special edition too. But really, 30 ( or was it 35?) bucks, AND the chance of it being out of stock/delayed for extended periods just for a music cd that will probably be put on youtube or something isn't really worth it. Not to mention that's more packaging for people to overcharge you with duty.

Of course, I'm probably gonna get the special edition anyway if it's still in stock (yeah right) when I can order this baby, and if I have the funds for it. Hard to tell cuz of random events happening costing cash atm.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 25, 2009, 10:16:44 AM
I want the special edition too. But really, 30 ( or was it 35?) bucks, AND the chance of it being out of stock/delayed for extended periods just for a music cd that will probably be put on youtube or something isn't really worth it. Not to mention that's more packaging for people to overcharge you with duty.

Of course, I'm probably gonna get the special edition anyway if it's still in stock (yeah right) when I can order this baby, and if I have the funds for it. Hard to tell cuz of random events happening costing cash atm.

I think the only thing you might miss out on by waiting until later and having to settle for the standard edition is the Futari version 1.01 DLC, which as I understand (but don't know for a fact), is included with all first-press releases of the game. I'm not so sure that 1.01 is worth it, though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 25, 2009, 11:33:28 AM
Pretty much. I'm a huge Manabu Namiki fan, so it kind of sold itself in my case. If you want, I'll see if I can get the music to you one way or another. :)

I'm a huge fan as well, that's very nice of you, thanks!

I ordered from Play-Asia my copy of Mushi Futari Standard Edition before going to sleep yesterday.
If I ever see the Limited Ed selling again, with the faceplate, I'll order it too.
Yes, I read it comes with a faceplate for the X360! :O

Oh, the price went up $6

Glad I bought mine before the price change :P

EDIT:

Play-Asia is taking pre-orders for the Limited Ed!

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-br-49-en-70-3j1c.html

EDIT2: Damnit I cannot cancel my order of the Standard Ed anymore!
I guess I'll have to buy two copies of the game then :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 03:48:28 PM
That's awesome, but I can safely say that I don't think you'll ever find the Limited Edition with the faceplates for a not-ridiculous price. Those came from CAVE's shop only and sold out pretty much instantly.


And NCSX still hasn't charged or shipped yet. This makes me sad. :(

I'm not so sure that 1.01 is worth it, though.

My perspective: seeing that it's pretty hard (and really expensive) to find a ver. 1.01 PCB, a free DLC card is like an early Christmas gift.  :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 25, 2009, 04:53:59 PM
So all the versions (limited and standard) both come with the 1.01 + Black Label as free DLC?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 05:10:47 PM
All of the first-print ones do, as far as I know.

EDIT: Wait, no. Not Black Label. That's paid DLC that will be available on Japanese Xbox Live Arcade eventually. Ver. 1.01 is the free DLC.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 25, 2009, 07:36:05 PM
Ah ok.

Well I have both a Standard and a Limited edition ordered on Play Asia.

I hope they ship tomorrow!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 07:47:26 PM
Here's to hoping~
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 25, 2009, 07:48:54 PM
I hope 1400 points is enough for the DLC, since that's the amount I got. Ordered the game earlier today. Don't know when I'll get it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 25, 2009, 07:51:13 PM
I just hope they don't run out of stock and/or jack the price up when I can order it by roughly the 10th of december. GAH. Hope you guys get yours soon too though. I always feel like a kid in a candy store every time I get mail hoping for a delivery notice from the post office when I order such things.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 25, 2009, 07:55:19 PM
I hope 1400 points is enough for the DLC, since that's the amount I got. Ordered the game earlier today. Don't know when I'll get it.

In case you don't already know: they have to be Japanese XBL points, and you have to order them through a Japanese account, all of which will work on a non-Japanese console.

Just making sure.  :)

Also, the BL DLC won't be available right away, so there's no major hurry.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 25, 2009, 08:22:23 PM
Yes, they're Japanese points as 1400 point cards don't exist for the US, and I don't have a Japanese account yet, but I'll make one when the time comes. Ordered the points along with Futari.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 25, 2009, 10:00:43 PM
Hm.. I didn't even know about the XBL thing

Well anyway ever since I got my X360 I never went online with it.

Maybe I'll need a guide sometime later to make the account and download it
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 26, 2009, 12:00:26 AM
It seems like Futari is selling pretty damn well- a lot better than I hoped it would. Precious gems like Cave shmups should be hidden in the deepest realms of the internet- almost never to see the light of day. (just my opinion)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 12:57:35 AM
Why? The general YouTube retard thinks anything by CAVE is Touhou anyway.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 26, 2009, 01:02:10 AM
I've never seen that. I've seen lots of Touhou is harder comments, but not that.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 01:02:55 AM
You have those, and the 'is this touhou? comments.

My general response to anything like that is 'hardly'.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 26, 2009, 01:03:56 AM
True, I felt an aneurysm coming on when I read the "true last boss" entry of TVtropes and someone said that Flandre was harder than Hibachi and Larsa.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 26, 2009, 01:11:07 AM
I remember seeing a "cool touhou on the DS" comment for a Ketsui Death Label promo video on Youtube, which I thought was pretty stupid, but in a way, understandable.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 01:12:49 AM
True, I felt an aneurysm coming on when I read the "true last boss" entry of TVtropes and someone said that Flandre was harder than Hibachi and Larsa.

I lose faith in humanity every time I get linked to that site.

I remember seeing a "cool touhou on the DS" comment for a Ketsui Death Label promo video on Youtube, which I thought was pretty stupid, but in a way, understandable.

Rob doesn't lie when he says it resembles a doujin shooter.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 26, 2009, 01:23:29 AM
Comparing every shmup to Touhou is the first level of stupid. More advanced users usually ask "Is this Ikaruga?" and "Was this game made by company who made Ikaruga?"
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 01:27:53 AM
And then you've got the Twin Galaxies record-holders who know what shmup is what, but think they're experts when they don't know shit about score mechanics :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 26, 2009, 01:30:42 AM
True, I felt an aneurysm coming on when I read the "true last boss" entry of TVtropes and someone said that Flandre was harder than Hibachi and Larsa.

She kind of is when you think about the circumstances.
And Hibachi just needs memorization to beat, so Flandre's only true competition is Larsa.

Flandre's battle involves very long and tedious attacks whereas Larsa focuses more on barrage, but if you have enough bombs you can plow through the battle.
With flandre, it is an extra stage, so you don't even have any powerups. And if I must also add: EoSD's shot types suck I'm comparison to Mushihimesama's

It's still under a lot of debate, so don't cringe just yet.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 01:44:43 AM
I don't know where you're going with any of that.

Flandre is more memorization than anything, since half of her cards are completely static :V

Hibachi isn't just memorization, it's a lot of sightreading and reflex. Same goes for Larsa.

Also, no, you can't plow through Larsa's battle using bombs, since, much like a Touhou Extra stage boss, she is immune to them.

I don't see what you're trying to say with "With flandre, it is an extra stage, so you don't even have any powerups." You um, do have powerups-- not to mention, to even get to Hibachi or Larsa, you have to play through 2 intense loops of DoDonPachi or through the lunacy that is Mushi Futari ULTRA/God mode. Flandre's 5-minute stage is a joke in comparison.

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 26, 2009, 02:04:20 AM
not to mention that if you DO bomb Larsa you're up for another full HP bar worth of pain
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 26, 2009, 02:28:36 AM
True, I felt an aneurysm coming on when I read the "true last boss" entry of TVtropes and someone said that Flandre was harder than Hibachi and Larsa.
[img=http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9375/sfivabelultra20090705.jpg] (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/sfivabelultra20090705.jpg/)

(must stop playing Facebook games and play shmups more..)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 26, 2009, 02:29:52 AM
I don't know where you're going with any of that.

Flandre is more memorization than anything, since half of her cards are completely static :V

Hibachi isn't just memorization, it's a lot of sightreading and reflex. Same goes for Larsa.

Also, no, you can't plow through Larsa's battle using bombs, since, much like a Touhou Extra stage boss, she is immune to them.

I don't see what you're trying to say with "With flandre, it is an extra stage, so you don't even have any powerups." You um, do have powerups-- not to mention, to even get to Hibachi or Larsa, you have to play through 2 intense loops of DoDonPachi or through the lunacy that is Mushi Futari ULTRA/God mode. Flandre's 5-minute stage is a joke in comparison.
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/put-in-more-quarters.jpg)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 26, 2009, 02:37:08 AM
Hibachi fight may be about proper positioning in certain patterns (first form especially), but there's no memorization involved whatsoever; it's just your ability to dodge shit and bomb per-emptively. I had a really good run today: one-lifed from that savestate posted a few pages back up to his 4th pattern, died second time with two bombs in stock, and started the last attack with full bomb stock. If not for stupid deaths and tough luck with last attack lanes, I'd have 1CC'd it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 26, 2009, 02:48:07 AM
I don't care who thinks what game is harder. I think people are stupid when they bash one game and love another. They're all excellent.

Flandre isn't very hard though IMO, but she's still one of my fave bosses to fight in all time.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 26, 2009, 03:01:20 AM
As for Flandre

Cranberry Trap- Screw this spellcard. I just suck at it.

Lavatein- lol static, easiest card in the stage.

Four of a Kind- usually easy, but sometimes I have to bomb it

Kagome Kagome- ugh random walling sometimes

Maze of Love- Static, but easy to mess up as I almost always tap the button a bit too hard or press it when I shouldn't.

Starbow Break- I just suck at it. I don't safespot it now, but I've only captured it 2 or 3 times, other times I have to bomb or die.

Catadioptric- I always clip something or bombspam

Counter Clock- only captured once. I just suck at it and usually used a bomb.

ATWTBN- I can get to 1-4 seconds left then die.

QED- first 3 times I got there 0/0 I almost captured it. 4th time at 1/0 almost captured it but died. Every time after that, I never got close.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 03:02:17 AM
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/put-in-more-quarters.jpg)

If you're doing it right, you don't use any more than one quarter.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Sodium on November 26, 2009, 03:05:12 AM
A game doesn't have to be hard to be fun. Although piss easy games will probably be not fun, and impossible because of shitty-mechanics(tm) will also be not fun.

And Flandre is one of the easier TH EX bosses.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 26, 2009, 03:08:31 AM
Quote
Flandre VS Hibachi

Quote
under a lot of debate

You realize scorerunners think nothing of perfecting Flandre and fight for their lives against Hibachi...right? Also Hibachi is pure dodging ability, Flan's the one that you memorize.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 26, 2009, 03:28:19 AM
Hibachi fight may be about proper positioning in certain patterns (first form especially), but there's no memorization involved whatsoever; it's just your ability to dodge shit and bomb per-emptively. I had a really good run today: one-lifed from that savestate posted a few pages back up to his 4th pattern, died second time with two bombs in stock, and started the last attack with full bomb stock. If not for stupid deaths and tough luck with last attack lanes, I'd have 1CC'd it.

You better be talking about the hibachi fight- not both loops of Dodonpachi.
Also, does anyone here seriously believe Futari will sell well enough for Cave to sell their games to the western gaming community?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 03:34:02 AM
Seeing that NCSX and P-A have both sold out of LE copies (though P-A got a new stock, apparently, though with a price boost), and other people have been going for the standard edition, I can only hope it's selling well enough.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 26, 2009, 03:41:33 AM
They also said that they were looking at worldwide distribution via Steam. While I have never used Steam before, the idea of being able to play newer Cave games on the PC is really nice.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 26, 2009, 03:53:20 AM
You better be talking about the hibachi fight- not both loops of Dodonpachi.
Of course, that's why I mentioned the savestate. The second loop is still too hard for me.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 26, 2009, 04:08:50 AM
Well- I'm not gonna play any more shmups until I get my eyes checked. It seemed Dodonpachi has deteriorated my eyesight.  ???

Yea... it's gotten bad...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 26, 2009, 05:24:00 AM
I still wonder why people shit bricks over bullet hells.

After playing shmups for just a few months, not even the HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER doesn't look THAT bad.

Daifukkatsu Hibachi on the other hand.... :V
"Hey dude, what should be his last attack?"
"I dunno, take the one from the first DDP and add 2 more layers of rape?"
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: moozooh on November 26, 2009, 05:37:32 AM
Indeed. Look at this stuff, it's not even bullet hell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwVE5KMltyg
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 05:56:51 AM
I still wonder why people shit bricks over bullet hells.

Because they've never played one before and because of the videos, are too scared to try.

Not me! The first time I saw a bullet hell shmup, my first thought was 'I gotta try this!'

Indeed. Look at this stuff, it's not even bullet hell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwVE5KMltyg

I dunno, it does look pretty rough though. Then again, I may just be saying that 'cause I suck at Gradius.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 26, 2009, 06:03:00 AM
Not me! The first time I saw a bullet hell shmup, my first thought was 'I gotta try this!'

Me too. :P The first time I saw a bullet hell shump was by watching a superplay of stage 3 of Dai Ou Jou and I was like, "Holy shit, I can do this" (haha) So I looked for games that were as intense and difficult; I found Touhou instead, but it got me hooked, and eventually led me to Cave (etc) and Dai Ou Jou.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 06:08:43 AM
In my case, I was into CAVE long before I was into Touhou. However, when I started playing CAVE stuff, I was pretty horrible, so I was kind of discouraged, even if it didn't stop me from wanting to play Mushihimesama, the game that sparked my interest to begin with. Along the way, I had discovered Touhou from a friend and it just clicked with me, and kept my attention afterward, so I grew addicted to the series. Now I'm more or less Touhou'd out for a while, and I'm really into arcade shmups now, MAME and such. Once I'm sick of those, I'll probably come back to Touhou again, and so on.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 26, 2009, 06:35:08 AM
Yeah, I've been off Touhou since something like two weeks after UFO. I keep saying that ZUN should scrap his current score system formula for something new so that the next game plays very differently and doesn't play all...same-y. Or perhaps change the structure of boss fights; I don't know. I just want to see a radically different Touhou shooter from him.

I just realized how full this thread is getting. Someone's going to have to make a Part II. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 06:42:34 AM
In 85 posts, yeah. I'll make it :)

As far as ZUN doing something different goes, I don't see that happening. ZUN's pretty much a one-trick pony, it seems-- even if that one trick is pretty fucking cool. As far as score systems go, Perfect Cherry Blossom was his only unique system that I immensely enjoyed. UFO's system is pretty different. Unfortunately, I don't like it much...
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 26, 2009, 06:59:24 AM
I loved PCB's system too, but it feels like all of the ones after are just derivative (although UFO stands out a bit). Shoesama put it in a way which struck a chord with me

Quote
in all touhou games you shoot and collect items to make some meter fluctuate

Not entirely accurate, but pretty close, I'd say. But it got me thinking how refreshing it would be if ZUN did something involving different gameplay mechanics which forced the player to interact with the game in a different way, like ESPGaluda or Ketsui, for instance.


Kill three fairies of the same color in a row to build your chain. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 07:15:17 AM
Oh christ, no thanks. I can hardly tolerate playing Ikaruga for score. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 26, 2009, 07:15:50 AM
I dunno, you could say the same thing against a lot of commercial companies.  I mean, Psikyo only makes shmups about collecting blinking pieces of gold and Takumi only makes shmups about reflecting bullets and increasing multipliers, right?  There's something to be said about sticking to a formula and experimenting within its boundaries.

When it comes to Touhou scoring, I do it occasionally, but the only games where I've ever are 5 and  6-8 (with 6 mostly being for its simplicity).  If you don't like the sameness of it, then just play the two or three you like best and play the others for survival/card-capturing.  It's enough to satisfy me if nothing else.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 07:22:53 AM
I never said there was anything wrong with having one general formula and sticking to it; I just said it would be hard to expect anything from ZUN other than what we're used to. The same can be said for Psikyo (who has made games that frankly play exactly the same with tiny differences, like Gunbird 2 and Strikers 1945 III), Takumi, Seibu Kaihatsu, Raizing, and some CAVE games (which has a handful of Yagawa games, so it's like more of the same twice over!), and so on. It's kind of funny how Toaplan closed their doors and formed CAVE, Raizing, and Takumi (and one other company I can't remember), and now the mind behind many Raizing shmups is now working for CAVE. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 26, 2009, 08:44:44 AM
I still wonder why people shit bricks over bullet hells.

After playing shmups for just a few months, not even the HARDEST VIDEO GAME BOSS EVER doesn't look THAT bad.

Daifukkatsu Hibachi on the other hand.... :V
"Hey dude, what should be his last attack?"
"I dunno, take the one from the first DDP and add 2 more layers of rape?"

Most people think Zelda is hard. nuff' said.

Anyway, I find alot of bullet hell videos look alot harder than they really are. And I don't mean that the actual game looks harder than it is, just the videos. Alot of them have really bad quality (hard to record an arcade cabinet I guess) which makes them blurry bullets appear bigger than they are (and I don't mean bigger than their hitbox). Alot of the time a bad quality video makes it look like the screen is literally covered in bullets. I mean literally, with absolutely not one pixel of "safe". But when you try the actual game, you see that it isn't so, due to sharper picture quality.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 26, 2009, 11:42:36 AM
I think it's pretty silly this fear, if you ask me.

I first met a shmup when someone showed me the Hardest videogame boss ever video on youtube early last year.
I was decided to have that game for my PS2 and I played it nonstop until I could get to the TLB on Arrange mode, which took me about a month of practice.
Then I basically had to stop playing for a while and that made me lose interest :(
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 26, 2009, 03:33:14 PM
I think it's pretty silly this fear, if you ask me.

I first met a shmup when someone showed me the Hardest videogame boss ever video on youtube early last year.
I was decided to have that game for my PS2 and I played it nonstop until I could get to the TLB on Arrange mode, which took me about a month of practice.
Then I basically had to stop playing for a while and that made me lose interest :(

True. The shmup genre's lack of popularity is probably due to the fact that most people are afraid of even the term "bullet hell".
Besides, we all know that puzzle games are the hardest genre out there right?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 26, 2009, 03:44:42 PM
Dodonpachi 2cc. I should practice the st4 boss a bit more, as he killed me....2 times. And once on stage.

I'm going to try and figure out how to make savestates.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 26, 2009, 05:22:55 PM
I just adore the moan Reco makes whenever she collects a power-up in Futari. If I had a portable mp3 player, I'd splice it out of the voice track on the OST and listen to it on loop. :V

Also, x.x has updated Eden Aegis to version 0.90 from 0.50. It's obtainable from his blog. I'm not sure what changed since I haven't been able to check yet. Might be a good distraction from waiting for Futari or something.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 26, 2009, 05:33:53 PM
Oddly enough, when I first saw Dracil's video of IN extra I was like most other people and went "WTF that looks insane," then proceeded to forget about it an hour later. It wasn't until I wanted to know what series Cirno was from that I checked the games out and realized "hey, this is kinda fun."

Also it's kinda funny how you guys complain about Touhou's scoring being all samey when every Dodonpachi game is about chaining (which IMO is much dumber). And yeah I read the posts before me and am still posting this. :V

I don't really care about ZUN not changing Touhou much from one game to the other. Just like the Mega Man series, I'm glad ZUN doesn't feel obligated to innovate every game. Why fix something that isn't broken?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 26, 2009, 05:52:40 PM
Somebody tell me how to make savestates as I'm way too damn lazy :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on November 26, 2009, 08:09:10 PM
I'm glad ZUN doesn't feel obligated to innovate every game. Why fix something that isn't broken?
Mima. Where is she?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 26, 2009, 08:55:07 PM
Mima. Where is she?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYxWi3WcagI

Quote
Here's your precious Mima-sama, geez

That's like moaning that Gravity Man never came back. And King Dodongo, I loved that guy! When will he make a reappearance?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 26, 2009, 09:06:55 PM
Oddly enough, when I first saw Dracil's video of IN extra I was like most other people and went "WTF that looks insane," then proceeded to forget about it an hour later. It wasn't until I wanted to know what series Cirno was from that I checked the games out and realized "hey, this is kinda fun."

Also it's kinda funny how you guys complain about Touhou's scoring being all samey when every Dodonpachi game is about chaining (which IMO is much dumber). And yeah I read the posts before me and am still posting this. :V

I don't really care about ZUN not changing Touhou much from one game to the other. Just like the Mega Man series, I'm glad ZUN doesn't feel obligated to innovate every game. Why fix something that isn't broken?

And I've said many times before that I hate DoDonPachi's scoring system, too :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 26, 2009, 09:11:10 PM
Also it's kinda funny how you guys complain about Touhou's scoring being all samey when every Dodonpachi game is about chaining (which IMO is much dumber). And yeah I read the posts before me and am still posting this. :V

Well, if we wanna get technical about it, PCB, MoF, SA, and UFO all kinda have chaining too.

Stage-long, GAME-LONG CHAININ'. D:

Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 27, 2009, 01:31:52 AM
Also it's kinda funny how you guys complain about Touhou's scoring being all samey when every Dodonpachi game is about chaining (which IMO is much dumber). And yeah I read the posts before me and am still posting this. :V

Actually, it was just me who was complaining. But really, I was just venting a bit. :P

Quote
I don't really care about ZUN not changing Touhou much from one game to the other. Just like the Mega Man series, I'm glad ZUN doesn't feel obligated to innovate every game. Why fix something that isn't broken?

I agree that there's nothing wrong with sticking with the same formula, especially if it works. But I also think that there's nothing wrong with being a bit adventurous and trying a different approach.


Anyway, I tried out Eden's Aegis 0.90. Heaven and Hell (suicide bullets~) modes are in, but I don't see the two new characters that x.x hinted at a while back; I'm not sure if they have to be unlocked or if they just haven't been implemented yet. I managed to 1CC Original on my first attempt. x.x apparently felt that it was necessary to add a Wait mode to the game, which actually trivializes everything. It can be disabled, though. The game seems a bit more balanced now, in that I noticed I only received an extend at 7 million and 30 million points, as opposed to one every 7 million like before. This is good, because it discourages suiciding at the beginning of each stage to replenish your bomb stock, since using them didn't, and still doesn't, appear to harm your chain.

Also, the third boss's stupid fork bullets are actually visible now and don't make my eyes water anymore.

Lastly, x.x changed the music for the whole game, I think. I can't compare it to 0.50's BGM, because it's been a while since I last played it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 27, 2009, 02:08:54 AM
I did a bunch of blind runs of Change Air Blade, and now I'm 4th in the Shmups forum scoreboard.  How the hell did that happen? :V

I should look some stuff up and see how this game is actually supposed to be played now.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 27, 2009, 02:19:40 AM
Anyway, I tried out Eden's Aegis 0.90. Heaven and Hell (suicide bullets~) modes are in, but I don't see the two new characters that x.x hinted at a while back; I'm not sure if they have to be unlocked or if they just haven't been implemented yet. I managed to 1CC Original on my first attempt. x.x apparently felt that it was necessary to add a Wait mode to the game, which actually trivializes everything. It can be disabled, though. The game seems a bit more balanced now, in that I noticed I only received an extend at 7 million and 30 million points, as opposed to one every 7 million like before. This is good, because it discourages suiciding at the beginning of each stage to replenish your bomb stock, since using them didn't, and still doesn't, appear to harm your chain.

Also, the third boss's stupid fork bullets are actually visible now and don't make my eyes water anymore.

Lastly, x.x changed the music for the whole game, I think. I can't compare it to 0.50's BGM, because it's been a while since I last played it.
I downloaded that today, haven't tested it yet, though.

I did a bunch of blind runs of Change Air Blade, and now I'm 4th in the Shmups forum scoreboard.  How the hell did that happen? :V

I should look some stuff up and see how this game is actually supposed to be played now.

It's really not hard, but it is pretty random. The amount of bullshit thrown at you around stage 6-7 is ridiculous, though. :V


Since I was at a relative's house for Thanksgiving today, I didn't have internet access, so I played some Batrider today. Made it to the 5th boss on my first try in ages! :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 27, 2009, 03:52:56 AM
I just tried Stella vanity. It's difficult as fuck for me. I mean I can't even 1cc the damn demo on normal difficulty. I can get past the 3rd boss fine, but after that... I think I can honestly say I live longer playing Mushi Ultra on very hard insane. The first time I got to stage 4 without using a continue, I actually lost ALL my continues before beating the final boss, it was rape..

Now I have a huge amount of respect if the game developers can make a game that hard and 1ccable. that would be something else. Anyway, how hard does this game rank on normal and pandemonium difficulties (I'm referring to the new patch). I know normal isn't THAT hard, but pandemonium is... Aptly named. Anyway, I think the game is fun anyway. There are some things I've noticed and/or want to know about though.

1:Thunder lady's shot type is overpowered imo, and her "homing" attack is really a joke, might as well just get rid of it, I think it's distracting more than anything, or am I just doing it wrong? Seems it doesn't lock on to anything until  they are in front of me, I'm shooting at them, AND I'm holding down the lock on button. When I hear the "ding" I push lock on again and it dies. Bosses, big enemies, whatever. Problem is it only locks on to targets it has enough energy to 1shot. And the energy fills up really really damn slow. Not only that but a full energy bar nuking a boss near death only seems to lock on until their health bar is *SOOOOO* low, that the other wind-girl's missle attack does the same amount of damage.. lame.

2: I'm not sure, but the wing girl's lock on attack caps at 4 locks right? I mean it goes from white, to yellow, then orange, then red. It keeps going "ding" after red though even if no new targets are around. Is it getting stronger? or does it just ding to be annoying?

3: randomly thru the game I hear christmas-bell sounding chimes. like once a level. I don't think these are extends or extra bombs. Wtf are they?

4: stages are kinda fun except they really seem to demand extreme memorization, not so much to dodge static patterns (don't think there really are any) but because you absolutely NEED to shoot down enemies asap because they don't really go away on their own very fast, and your screen will be impossible to survive before long (on higher difficulties/ stage4 that is). I'm not sure if I like this, though I suppose it makes sense to make this more "shooting' oriented than dodging compared to other doujin shooter games due to its potentially interesting shot types mixed with homing attacks and lockons and such.

5: wtf is up with the 3 harmless beams on the thunder lady's focus mode?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 27, 2009, 05:55:02 AM
Why is it that the more I play Dodonpachi's stage 4, the worse I tend to do? I mean, I do better in terms of score, but I'm clipping the stage boss's attacks- IT'S EASY! I SHOULD BEAT THE FIRST 4 STAGE BOSSES WITH NO BOMBS/MISSES AT AL!

Edit: Did I forget to add the word "beat" in between "should" and "the"?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: An Odd Sea Slug on November 27, 2009, 09:21:22 AM
I'm officially in a shmup slump. I died to freaking Barlog in Battle Bakraid. I actually got hit by Cyclop's mega-cannon. These things have never happened before, even on advanced course. I love having godly runs, only to suddenly lose all my lives in the span of a minute without warning.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 27, 2009, 02:11:34 PM
I'm officially in a shmup slump. I died to freaking Barlog in Battle Bakraid. I actually got hit by Cyclop's mega-cannon. These things have never happened before, even on advanced course. I love having godly runs, only to suddenly lose all my lives in the span of a minute without warning.

It happens. ^^;
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 27, 2009, 04:40:26 PM
Managed a 373 chain in DDP. :V

It isn't really hard once you figure out that hueg streaming section in st5.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 27, 2009, 08:59:28 PM
Just ragecalled NCSX, since my bank account is missing $117 but no notification of shipping or even any notification that they got the money. I barely got my name out before the lady said 'Oh, yours will ship out on Monday' as if she knew I was going to call. Creepy  :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 27, 2009, 10:16:58 PM
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8536/wtfmr.jpg)
Stage 4. These evil, bad, bad and evil spawns of Satan which are coming to shit on your bomb stock.

Is there a strategy for them? No matter how I misdirect it, I either get cornered or I get overloaded by enemies.
Or even better, later in the stage, a second one joins in along with the pink spambot from st1.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 27, 2009, 10:32:14 PM
Start to their left to misdirect the initial blue shot, then fly underneath the red bullets to the right, and try to finish it off.  Depending on your shottype, you might have to misdirect a second wave to the right.  You could also start underneath them, tap to the side and move upwards to kill them quicker, but that's a bit riskier.

I once had a way to get past their second appearance without bombing, but I forget it now. :-[
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 27, 2009, 10:42:15 PM
I've got past these dudes no problem now....but the rest of the stage >.>
It's just impossible for me to get through without dying 3 times thanks to I dunno what.

EDIT: Reached end st5 boss with 16m score.
Is this one of the least generous games when it comes to extends? Or are there any other games which give you pretty much no lives or you have to  actually fight for them?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 28, 2009, 12:57:36 AM
I think that you're guaranteed to get at least two extends (first at 6m points, second at the huge red carrier at stage 3, destroy the 6 yellow side "boxes", and then the control-center thing after them, before the boss). With each extend, more bombs.. and then there's the 3rd extend if you find yourself struggling to reach 20m points before losing your last life :p

some games that give you no lives: Raiden Fighters Jet and Thunder Dragon 2 (these two come to mind :p)
games that make you work for extends: Raizing games with the suicide-based rank control :p
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 28, 2009, 01:01:13 AM
All 3 of the Raiden Fighters games don't give extends. Which makes it a pain in the ass to try to do well on.

I barely 1cc'd the second one on Normal without meeting the TLB requirement, have no chance of beating the TLB in Jet and barely 1cc'd Sim 50, and have not 1cc'd the first. I haven't even made it to RFJ's final boss in Real Battle on 1 credit yet, and having to beat Real Battle 1 No Miss to even have a chance at the TLB sucks as well.

Oh, and fast bullets kick my ass. Fast and numerous bullets are much worse.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 28, 2009, 02:00:42 AM
Nothing extremely big, but I got to stage 6 in Giga Wing earlier today, and hit 14 tril.  I was sucking horribly at this game for a long while recently whenever I tried it, so this came as a nice surprise.

God damn these games, whenever I get frustrated enough that I'm about ready to give up on them I get some breakthrough that just makes me want to keep fighting.  Feels just like SG grinding in the good old days. :D
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 28, 2009, 02:07:12 AM
Got to 18 something million before dying this time.

I pretty much lose my skill on a real run - I've bombed 4 times on st3 boss, pretty much bombspammed the entire st4 fight and died 2 times on st5, both times with an almost full bomb stock.

I've managed a perfect of st3 and st4 bosses with savestates and a 4 bomb clear of st5 boss.

More practice, I guess.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 28, 2009, 03:31:42 AM
Damn, it's getting harder and harder to visit Shmups Forum with that giant Futari thread always at the top. Can't resist reading it and feeling envious. :V

I think I'll order it and Death Smiles sometime this weekend...and stare at them when they arrive.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 28, 2009, 04:13:44 AM
Damn, it's getting harder and harder to visit Shmups Forum with that giant Futari thread always at the top. Can't resist reading it and feeling envious. :V

I think I'll order it and Death Smiles sometime this weekend...and stare at them when they arrive.

Cool, I didn't know you had a J360.

Tell me how the Ketsui port is whenever it comes out =[
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 28, 2009, 04:32:45 AM
my copy still hasn't shipped from playasia, so i changed my postage from economy box to fedex.

probably shouldn't have, but damn, i want to play it

god damnit send it to me already! x_x
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 28, 2009, 04:37:57 AM
Cool, I didn't know you had a J360.

Tell me how the Ketsui port is whenever it comes out =[

I don't. That's why I said I'd be staring at them when they arrive. :P

But yeah, I took what you said a while ago into consideration: that the games can only go up in price (or out of print) whereas a 360 can't; so, I figured that I may as well put my mind at ease and at least own the games, and get the system whenever it's cheap convenient.


On the Eden's Aegis front, 1CCing the game with both Nanathy and Maple will unlock a third character, Eve, for all difficulties. And I figure 1CCing the game with Eve will unlock the fourth character x.x showed off on his diary. Maybe later.

I really, really like this game, though. The score system is very tightly bound to survival, but instead of feeling like a technical grind, it's really fluid and makes you feel rewarded for doing well. Like ESPGaluda.

EDIT: damn grammar
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 28, 2009, 01:45:23 PM
So close. If I only wouldn't die with 4 and 3 bombs early on.... :V
(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2234/57555829.jpg)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 28, 2009, 01:57:55 PM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oouHr3bDEIQ) one is a classic.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 28, 2009, 02:11:25 PM
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oouHr3bDEIQ) one is a classic.
oh god. That has to suck :V

Still, the final attack is easy as long as you have 2 bombs.....you can just stream it up, then bomb, get back down and repeat.

EDIT:
dkuiauiabgfaipfůcfnhubuiafpoa
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCk
this was a double epic fucking fail
I get a 331 combo and enter stage 6 with 3 MOTHERFUCKING LIVES.

but what do I do
I die with 2 bombs then with 4 bombs
then FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
died just as the final pattern was about to begin and the 3 bombs would pull me through 100%.
I was so goddamn close to looping it on my first 1cc.
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8454/fuckfuckfuck.jpg)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 28, 2009, 03:01:45 PM
At least you still have the will to continue playing even if you die with bombs in stock. Anytime I play Dodonpachi, I restart if I die with bombs in stock. =( Gonna go on a Dodonpachi hiatus....
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 28, 2009, 03:03:50 PM
At least you still have the will to continue playing even if you die with bombs in stock. Anytime I play Dodonpachi, I restart if I die with bombs in stock. =( Gonna go on a Dodonpachi hiatus....
It was st6 and easily my best run so far+the death was just before the boss and I've no death'd him earlier - so why reset? :V

EDIT: Just noticed that I've got a #1 place on some scoreboards and #10 on some bigger ones around here - the record for my country seems to be 39761670 - I guess that I can beat that if I'll ever bother with proper chaining instead of smashing the fire button.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 02:07:52 AM
Worth the doublepost.
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8437/1ccd.jpg)

NICE TRY, FIGHTER. Such a kick in the balls.
Final score was 29m something.

I know that I didn't have anything left, but I've entered st6 boss with full bombs and 2 lives(entered st6 with 3 lives and no bombs) and died on the first life with 3 left - so I've said fuck that, I'm not screwing it up again and just bombed.

Max combo was 260 or something.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: shadowbringer on November 29, 2009, 03:40:27 AM
congratulations, Bananamatic :D
(now, for the dreaded speech, "now, go for the second loop!" :p)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 03:44:55 AM
congratulations, Bananamatic :D
(now, for the dreaded speech, "now, go for the second loop!" :p)
I've just got assfucked by Mars Matrix. Is it supposed to run at 60 FPS?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 29, 2009, 03:55:25 AM
Worth the doublepost.
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8437/1ccd.jpg

NICE TRY, FIGHTER. Such a kick in the balls.
Final score was 29m something.

I know that I didn't have anything left, but I've entered st6 boss with full bombs and 2 lives(entered st6 with 3 lives and no bombs) and died on the first life with 3 left - so I've said fuck that, I'm not screwing it up again and just bombed.

Max combo was 260 or something.

Congrats. Was this your first 1CC of DoDonPachi?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 03:57:44 AM
Congrats. Was this your first 1CC of DoDonPachi?
First 1cc, but I was awfully close to a 1cc AND a loop(st5 mass streaming is the only place I can get a chain like that)
Reached st6 for the 1st time today and beat it on the 3rd time I've got there.

I've reached the final boss with 2 lives and full bombs, so it isn't that hard IMO.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 29, 2009, 03:46:32 PM
So, after all that talk about Mushi P-A copies not coming with the DLC Card, i ordered from NCSX.

Whichever ships first, I'll cancel the other.

So.. good luck to me
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Chaotic Phoenixma on November 29, 2009, 03:52:03 PM
And if they ship out at the same time, then you get a copy to sell later on.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on November 29, 2009, 04:21:52 PM
haha I doubt they'll ship at the same time, since people in shmup forums are saying P-A's estimated shipping date is December 7th+
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: BoLaD on November 29, 2009, 07:16:28 PM
Sigh... I think I should just make my sig: "I hate the input lag in Mame."
Sigh... it's the cause of every single one of my restarts.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 29, 2009, 09:23:59 PM
Sigh... I think I should just make my sig: "I hate the input lag in Mame."
Sigh... it's the cause of every single one of my restarts.

lol k

here you go :V

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/mamehate.png)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 09:25:02 PM
Now I'm wondering....how the hell did 2 people die of a heart attack while playing Berzerk yet no one died at Dodonpachi.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 29, 2009, 09:29:18 PM
Now I'm wondering....how the hell did 2 people die of a heart attack while playing Berzerk yet no one died at Dodonpachi.

Berzerk isn't an easy game, ya know. :P
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
Berzerk isn't an easy game, ya know. :P
DDP can wear you out rather fast...you definitely won't go for a second run right after one :V

Also, maybe I should leave the noobtype C-S and move onto something better which allows actual chaining.
A-L? B-L?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 29, 2009, 10:15:37 PM
Wait, what's this that happened with Berzerk?


I haven't played Samidare in years, but from out of nowhere today, its Extra Stage music has been looping in my head.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 10:19:39 PM
Wait, what's this that happened with Berzerk?


I haven't played Samidare in years, but from out of nowhere today, its Extra Stage music has been looping in my head.
Basically, doods played Berzerk and died of a heart attack. 2 in 1 year or so.

Tried B-L. Killing bosses faster is nice, but I suck at any fast shottypes, period. I might try C-L.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 11:01:33 PM
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/7595/looped.jpg)
YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAHHHH

Final score was 32m.

Unfortunately....I've decided to record and apparently you can't savestate while recording, so I've pressed escape and, well....it turned off :V

So, /r loop 2 state.
I've fucking deserved it. Come on :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 29, 2009, 11:04:26 PM
If you hit me up on MSN later I'll give it to you.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: nintendonut888 on November 29, 2009, 11:13:01 PM
http://rapidshare.com/files/314027539/ddonpach-l.sta.html

Here's my savestate at the start of the second loop. It uses A-L though.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on November 29, 2009, 11:15:37 PM
http://rapidshare.com/files/314027539/ddonpach-l.sta.html

Here's my savestate at the start of the second loop. It uses A-L though.
Thanks :V
Doesn't matter, I'll probably die 5 times before 2-2.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 30, 2009, 01:30:35 AM
Am I correct in thinking that there is an Arrange OST packaged with the limited edition of Futari?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 30, 2009, 01:59:08 AM
You are correct!

Someone posted this on shmups forum:
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/wwwdotuporg389531.jpg)

It's a double arrange album, in fact.

Like I said earlier, just ask me if you want to hear it once I get it.  ;)

EDIT:
Also, check these out. It's an Arrange ULTRA Mode 1cc. Pay close attention to the final boss and TLB. I'd go so far as to say that the very final pattern would be the most wicked impossible thing ever in a danmaku shmup, if it weren't for the bullet reflection. Yes, even worse than Aki's final pattern.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8947905 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8947905)
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8949852 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8949852)
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 30, 2009, 02:53:02 AM
You are correct!

Someone posted this on shmups forum:
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll65/momijitsukuyomi/wwwdotuporg389531.jpg

It's a double arrange album, in fact.

Like I said earlier, just ask me if you want to hear it once I get it.  ;)

Will do. :P Had I known that they were arrange albums I probably would have pre-ordered the LE, but I had thought it just included the standard OST.

Quote
EDIT:
Also, check these out. It's an Arrange ULTRA Mode 1cc. Pay close attention to the final boss and TLB. I'd go so far as to say that the very final pattern would be the most wicked impossible thing ever in a danmaku shmup, if it weren't for the bullet reflection. Yes, even worse than Aki's final pattern.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8947905 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8947905)
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8949852 (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8949852)

First, Jesus, the port looks gorgeous, even on a fucking stream. I'm impressed. Hopefully ESPGaluda II and Ketsui end up getting the same treatment.

I didn't have the time to watch it all, so I just saw the Spiritual Larsa fight. I'm laughing at the ridiculousness of some of those final patterns. At least Hibachi's last pattern in Dai Ou Jou is technically dodgeable. :D It reminds me of the final pattern of Ikaruga, which is basically an ultimate test to see how well you can utilize the central mechanic of the game.

I can also see some people at Shmups Forum fuming over the voices in Arrange. I await the drama.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on November 30, 2009, 03:04:07 AM
It's nothing new, really. They just love to complain about the smallest things, as if it stops them from enjoying the game. Not that it would stop them anyway :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 30, 2009, 03:21:32 AM
It's nothing new, really. They just love to complain about the smallest things, as if it stops them from enjoying the game. Not that it would stop them anyway :V

Nah they're right. The game sucks, they should send it to me and I'll properly ahh...Dispose it.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 30, 2009, 04:21:51 AM
I only hope that the game is reasonably playable with the standard Xbox 360 game pad. I want to transition to a stick eventually, but I will probably have to delay it a bit, since that is going to take a bit of research (and they seem a bit pricey). The PS2 game pad gave me hell.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on November 30, 2009, 04:26:20 AM
I only hope that the game is reasonably playable with the standard Xbox 360 game pad. I want to transition to a stick eventually, but I will probably have to delay it a bit, since that is going to take a bit of research (and they seem a bit pricey). The PS2 game pad gave me hell.

I don't have a stick for any of my shooter games. Does it really help that much for absolutely everyone? I find it hard to believe since most have very digital movement. I mean generally you can only go 8 directions with no way to change the speed of movement outside of the focus mode/rapid tapping. I understand alot of peopel will tell me it helps alot as a matter of preference. But are there ANY high-end shooter fans at ALL who claim a stick doesn't help them?

I'd try one and see for myself but I don't want to spend the cash just for an experiment y'know?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Azinth on November 30, 2009, 04:46:29 AM
Real men move their lolis with keyboard.

But to be serious, the main reason that most people probably use sticks is because arcade games are made to be controlled that way, so they want the movement type that allows for the best play possible. 
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on November 30, 2009, 04:58:30 AM
I don't have a stick for any of my shooter games. Does it really help that much for absolutely everyone? I find it hard to believe since most have very digital movement. I mean generally you can only go 8 directions with no way to change the speed of movement outside of the focus mode/rapid tapping. I understand alot of peopel will tell me it helps alot as a matter of preference. But are there ANY high-end shooter fans at ALL who claim a stick doesn't help them?

I'd try one and see for myself but I don't want to spend the cash just for an experiment y'know?

For me, it's not a matter of whether it will help me or not. What I'm after is consistency across multiple platforms. I'm very used to the keyboard, because most of the shooters I play are on the PC; this gives me problems when having to play on a console with a game-pad. Transitioning to a stick will allow me to use it on the console as well as the PC. I've never used a stick for shooters before though, so I do expect a steep learning curve.

I would assume that most high-end players do use a stick, because most shooters are designed to be played with one, and most of the time, they are only accessible via stick (arcades, etc). But yeah, I've seen high-end players prefer to play with game-pads and keyboards. I've also seen people say that they can't go back after trying a stick. If the option is there, it comes down to preference, like you said.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 04:49:13 AM
Hardly a day without posting? It feels so lonely in here :(

Anyway, I played some Aero Fighters/Sonic Wings 2 today, made by the people who would later become Psikyo. Once you get a couple of stages in it turns into total bullshit as far as bullet speed goes.

i never thought i'd be frying over a jungle :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on December 01, 2009, 07:41:38 AM
I just played some Aero Fighters/Sonic Wings 2.

Holy fuck that was the weirdest Psikyo game. I didn't know what I was doing; just flying around collecting yen signs and shit, and all of a sudden the Statue of Liberty gives me a powerup. Then it got hard with ships firing bullets really close to my ship while trying to fly into me, but like a true hero, I kept putting in credits and got to the final boss, which turned out to be some kind of monkey. :V

It really wore out my finger though. Psikyo games make my shot feel underpowered, which makes me tap the shot button really quickly just to be able to kill things.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 08:20:25 AM
Hmm, I wouldn't exactly call it a Psikyo game directly. Think of it kind of like the Toaplan -> CAVE/Takumi/Raizing relationship.

I think what makes Aero Fighters/Sonic Wings so damn hard is because of the vertizontal layout. Tiny, fast bullets and lots of space is really deceptive, especially since there's a lot of space for a bullet to come from behind, and being severely underpowered doesn't help. Psikyo continues Video System's little tradition of losing Maximum Power after a set amount of time for a few early games, then apparently they realized 'oh hey, this is fucking stupid' and took that out :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on December 01, 2009, 11:38:29 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHA I am so unlucky I can't believe

I ordered a copy of Mushi last friday from Play Asia. It was set to ship on the 7th, so I ordered from NCSX as well and as soon as that one shipped, i'd cancel my P-A order.
Last night neither had shipped but I was going to cancel the P-A order anyway because everyone's not getting their DLC card. Except my internet went down.


This morning I woke up and guess what? Both copies shipped at the same time... P-A got a restock and shipped the rest of their orders today...

What are the odds?

Now I'll be stuck with two S-E copies, one of which isn't first print so it doesn't come with the DLC card.

To make things worse, both are priority international air mail, which made the price rise to about U$105 per game... GREAT!

*hits head against wall*
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Lishy1 on December 01, 2009, 11:59:11 AM
Is it possible to play my 360 with a keyboard?
Mushihimesama won't feel JUST right without using arrow keys for movement and Z to shoot.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 12:38:15 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA I am so unlucky I can't believe

I ordered a copy of Mushi last friday from Play Asia. It was set to ship on the 7th, so I ordered from NCSX as well and as soon as that one shipped, i'd cancel my P-A order.
Last night neither had shipped but I was going to cancel the P-A order anyway because everyone's not getting their DLC card. Except my internet went down.


This morning I woke up and guess what? Both copies shipped at the same time... P-A got a restock and shipped the rest of their orders today...

What are the odds?

Now I'll be stuck with two S-E copies, one of which isn't first print so it doesn't come with the DLC card.

To make things worse, both are priority international air mail, which made the price rise to about U$105 per game... GREAT!

*hits head against wall*

Nice one :V

Is it possible to play my 360 with a keyboard?
Mushihimesama won't feel JUST right without using arrow keys for movement and Z to shoot.

Not sure. Can't hurt to try, though. I will say that attempting to play the first Mushihimesama using a keyboard (via emulator) felt really uncomfortable, and that arrow keys were very poorly-suited to dodging Mushi-brand bullets.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on December 01, 2009, 03:30:38 PM
I tried playing Mushi on the emulator, and I immediately felt that I had better control over it. But overall, the game felt off. I'm not sure in what capacity, but there was something about it that didn't feel right. I think I need to tweak some settings or just wait for more development on the emulator or something.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on December 01, 2009, 04:23:53 PM
it's input lag

It's the same here, it's unplayable on keyboard
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 04:51:40 PM
Well the game was already unplayable due to it playing at 10fps, but still!
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on December 01, 2009, 05:10:12 PM
Well the game was already unplayable due to it playing at 10fps, but still!

I play it at 60fps here just fine..

but on keyboard there is too much input lag.

on the controller is much better.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on December 01, 2009, 05:25:18 PM
Yeah, Mushi was going for me at 60 fps as well. I don't get noticeable input lag with anything (Touhou, MAME, etc), so I'm not sure if it was that. I'll rip my DOJ later and give that a go and see how it is.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on December 01, 2009, 08:56:12 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA I am so unlucky I can't believe

I ordered a copy of Mushi last friday from Play Asia. It was set to ship on the 7th, so I ordered from NCSX as well and as soon as that one shipped, i'd cancel my P-A order.
Last night neither had shipped but I was going to cancel the P-A order anyway because everyone's not getting their DLC card. Except my internet went down.


This morning I woke up and guess what? Both copies shipped at the same time... P-A got a restock and shipped the rest of their orders today...

What are the odds?

Now I'll be stuck with two S-E copies, one of which isn't first print so it doesn't come with the DLC card.

To make things worse, both are priority international air mail, which made the price rise to about U$105 per game... GREAT!

*hits head against wall*

That's the risk you were hopefully willing to take when you ordered both at once.

On the plus side thought, you can hold on to one without opening it or whatever, and probably re-sell it on ebay later for double the amount.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on December 01, 2009, 09:54:45 PM
Tried DonPachi. Didn't really like it for the same reason as PC98 Touhou - way too long stages.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 09:57:02 PM
Yeah, Mushi was going for me at 60 fps as well. I don't get noticeable input lag with anything (Touhou, MAME, etc), so I'm not sure if it was that. I'll rip my DOJ later and give that a go and see how it is.

Gah, what the hell. I couldn't get it to run at a proper speed at all.

Tried DonPachi. Didn't really like it for the same reason as PC98 Touhou - way too long stages.

You're seriously going to write it off as unenjoyable just because of that?  :-\
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on December 01, 2009, 10:01:08 PM
You're seriously going to write it off as unenjoyable just because of that?  :-\
Yeah, I don't enjoy shmups with way too long stages.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 10:06:09 PM
Hrm, that's too bad. :(

You should try DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou DEATH LABEL. There's no stages at all. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on December 01, 2009, 10:07:21 PM
Gah, what the hell. I couldn't get it to run at a proper speed at all.

You're seriously going to write it off as unenjoyable just because of that?  :-\

It works fine for me too, and that was with GsDX (or whatever it's called) version 9xx or something. I recently updated it to 16xx. Let's just say thatI had a nother game that would chug at 4fps (yes, 4)... I can spew what my config settings are at if you like.

As for Ban, I prefer bosses over stages mostly too. I mean sometimes I can enjoy stages in a shmup. But most of the time, I find that they require most of the memorization in a shmup, which I HATE. Even in touhou, with its short stages, I still hate them. Almost half+ of my deaths and bombs are during stages, which is caused not by lack of skill or something. But out of failure to remember t hat "zomg wave of baddies that spam bullets like no tomorrow that nobody can possibly dodge easily spawns on the left side and oh shit I'm on the right *bomb*".

I do like my stages to be somewhat difficult provided they aren't trivilized by doing each and every part in it "right" however. I find stage 3 of stella vanity is a great example of this.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: lmagus on December 01, 2009, 10:07:46 PM
Ketsui Death Label for the DS

Only bosses.

It's pretty fucking good
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 10:13:02 PM
I like a good balance of stage and boss. Mushi pulls this off pretty well, with the first three stages being maybe 3-5 minutes long with a 1-3 minute boss and the other two being about 7-8 minutes long with stronger, longer bosses. Touhou stages are about the right length, but they're just too damn boring in my eyes. The bosses obviously redeem the games, being long and much more exciting.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on December 01, 2009, 10:22:14 PM
I like a good balance of stage and boss. Mushi pulls this off pretty well, with the first three stages being maybe 3-5 minutes long with a 1-3 minute boss and the other two being about 7-8 minutes long with stronger, longer bosses. Touhou stages are about the right length, but they're just too damn boring in my eyes. The bosses obviously redeem the games, being long and much more exciting.

I think the problem with touhou stages is that it lacks a balance between strong and weak enemies. In addition, if there is an occasional strong enemy (very rare), it has no visual difference from the others. They're all just fairies. Not that fairies are bad. But..I don't know, have a badass looking fairy? lol. I mean when you play a shooter with a variety of enemies, the "popcorn" ones are noticeably different than the beefy ones in such a way so that you know which is which even if you haven't played the game. I don't mean it's just a visual thing though. Just that in Touhou, it all seems like 1 giant wave of the same thing over and over for stages.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Bananamatic on December 01, 2009, 10:32:15 PM
Hibachi 2cc. I guess that I won't get any better :V

It's really about getting the most out of the 4th phase.
The final sucks....the other phases can be read and bombed if you are fast enough, but dancing inside a bullet wall with zero deathbomb time...nah :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Matsuri on December 01, 2009, 10:40:31 PM
Ah, this thread is over 1000 posts now. I'll make a new one once a mod closes this one.
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Ghaleon on December 01, 2009, 10:57:33 PM
Ah, this thread is over 1000 posts now. I'll make a new one once a mod closes this one.

Eek, I got the 1000th post too without noticing, do I get a cookie?
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: Aisha on December 01, 2009, 11:29:31 PM
The thing that bothers me about Touhou stages is that there's really not much going on in them. You just have a scrolling background and two or three types of enemies flying onto the screen in arbitrary formations and spewing bullets at you. I don't find that very interesting, but I can understand why they are the way they are. Still, I wish ZUN would try to give his stages a bit more life.

Gah, what the hell. I couldn't get it to run at a proper speed at all.

If it's only going at 10 fps then your computer might be underpowered for PS2 emulation or there might be a hardware bottleneck somewhere.

Eek, I got the 1000th post too without noticing, do I get a cookie?

You would have, but I took it. :V
Title: Re: Shooter games
Post by: helvetica on December 01, 2009, 11:35:48 PM
1k posts reached, locked.