Yukari was Maribel: An analysis using official sources

[Slaves]

if Maribel=Yukari is true, i'll be sad. mostly because i love the idea of Yukari fucking around with humans' dreams.

and of course, Gensokyo being a dream is kind of incredibly depressing.

[Tengukami]

Gensokyo is real. It's just too much for modern humans to handle, so the brain processes it as a dream to prevent a nervous breakdown.

[Helepolis]

if Maribel=Yukari is true, i'll be sad. mostly because i love the idea of Yukari fucking around with humans' dreams.

Well if that is the case, she did a pretty fine job fucking around with my dream making herself appear and Samuel L. Jackson. There are limits to contents of a dream, really.

[Mounting Jaggis]

Gensokyo is real. It's just too much for modern humans to handle, so the brain processes it as a dream to prevent a nervous breakdown.

You must be at least this drunk to comprehend Gensokyo

[orinrin]

Beer is the portal to another world.

[Gpop]

So then CtC all over again, but with Maribel instead of Marisa?

[Tengukami]

Do you mean Uwabami Breakers?

[Tiamat]

"You mean to tell me that all that shit that happened...all that stuff we seen...ALL those colorful characters...were all a fucking DREAM!?"

"Yeop, funny aint it?"

"..."

I don't know about any of you, but...I'd rather not have that scenerio applied to any of this. It seems like a HUGE dickmove given how long we've messed around with Gensokyo as a whole.

You can read my reply to Stuffman earlier.  ZUN makes it pretty clear that it's actually a separate world, and not Maribel's dream.  Maribel just THINKS it's a dream, and even she's questioning that maybe it's the ouside world that's her dream (she practically begs Renko to help her figure out which is actually real in Changeability)

The original Gensokyo was actually created by a bunch of priests (likely Hakurei priests, for obvious reasons), not Yukari.  Yukari simply later on claimed the thing as her own for whatever reason (Yukari being Maribel gives the reason.  She wanted to take Gensokyo and transform it into HER reality, which is what Renko told her to do.  By the time Akyu interviews Yukari 1200 years later, Yukar'i has such a god complex that she's referring to herself as the representation of Gensokyo's reality)

Gensokyo is real. It's just too much for modern humans to handle, so the brain processes it as a dream to prevent a nervous breakdown.

That's a pretty good way of putting it.  Maribel is on the verge of a nervous breakdown herself in Changeability of Strange Dream at first.

hardly doubt it. The Hakurei border is announced to be the most important border to be maintained. See the issue about killing the shrine maiden in a danmaku battle.

That's actually probably one of the many lies being perpetuated in Perfect Memento (and one Yukari is probablytrying to perpetuate to the humans in general, since she editted that book.  ZUN devotes a pretty decently lengthy scene in Silent Sinner in Blue at the end to show that.

(first of all, before you read this, know that Aya is at least 1,000 years old and has been in Gensokyo for almost that long.  I forget where this was originally stated, byt the Touhou Wikia has it in the Gensokyo timeline and I'm sure I've seen it in an official work before.  I just forget which)

Aya:  It's been 25 days since the shrine maiden dissappeared... I know she went up to the Moon capital with the vampire, but for some reason she's the only one who didn't come back.  This way... I suppose we'll have to find another shrine maiden before long.  How many will this make, anyway?  It would be fine if it's someone who will make lots of news for my paper, though.


....yea.  Aya's attitude is basically "Well gee.  Our Shrine Maiden's gone.  Time to get a new one.  Again.  We sure go through them pretty quickly."

"Due to her easygoing appearance, it's impossible to tell whether she realizes this or not, but the Hakurei shrine maidens really do have all of Gensokyo under their thumbs.
" ~Akyu, Perfect Memento

The sad thing is that Reimu's apparently realized the opposite of what Akyu states.  The girl is pretty darn depressed throughout Silent Sinner in Blue in general, and (assuming that was on purpose.  I'll admit that lots of characters don't smile as much as I figured they normally do), it would be because Rinnosuke told her the meaning of Yukari's name earlier in CoLA chapter 25 (which clearly takes place before Silent Sinner in Blue since Yukari jus told Remiu to start training, tying into he having done that in SSIB).  Rinnosuke told her that if anything, basically Yukari's the one controlling HER, and Rinnosuke actually states that Reimu seems disturbed after that (and with good reason)

Heck, if you read Yukari's dialogue to Reimu in various places, it's prety clear the Youkai is treating the poor girl as her puppet.  At the ending of Imperishable Night's Extra Stage she practically ends it with the equivalent of "Yea, that's right.  Be a good shrine maiden and do what you're supposed to do."

(I think Yukari's getting annoyed with always having to get a replacement maiden though.  She tries to get Reimu to eat Mokou's guts to become immortal, after all)

[Bias Bus]

You can read my reply to Stuffman earlier.  ZUN makes it pretty clear that it's actually a separate world, and not Maribel's dream.  Maribel just THINKS it's a dream, and even she's questioning that maybe it's the ouside world that's her dream (she practically begs Renko to help her figure out which is actually real in Changeability)

The original Gensokyo was actually created by a bunch of priests (likely Hakurei priests, for obvious reasons), not Yukari.  Yukari simply later on claimed the thing as her own for whatever reason (Yukari being Maribel gives the reason.  She wanted to take Gensokyo and transform it into HER reality, which is what Renko told her to do.  By the time Akyu interviews Yukari 1200 years later, Yukar'i has such a god complex that she's referring to herself as the representation of Gensokyo's reality)

Fine. That was a fault on my part for not reading ahead.

I'm still not giving my faith to this all being true though. My nature just doesn't allow it.

[OkashiiKisei]

What movie?

I meant movies and literature in general. As in, thousand of movie makers and literature writers

We don't actually know Yukari created Gensokyo or not. It is actually quite hard to define Gensokyo as people have different opinions about the "area".

And why do you think the notion of Maribel = Yukari means it is automatically all a dream? Tiamat explicitly explained Gensokyo is a real world. Maribel, when she became Yukari, MADE it into a real world. She just collected many pre-existing youkai, put them in a border, conserve magic and nature within and voila: Gensokyo. She can't wake up and let everything vanish because she is already awake! Several sources clearly say Yukari made the border, thus she created Gensokyo, for it is the land within the border. She is rightfully its ruler and technically its God.

I hardly doubt it. The Hakurei border is announced to be the most important border to be maintained. See the issue about killing the shrine maiden in a danmaku battle. (Spell card discussion thread). We don't actually know Yukari created Gensokyo or not. It is actually quite hard to define Gensokyo as people have different opinions about the "area".

And Reimu IS ordinary when you compare her to the omnipotent Yukari. She's special, but not godlike. Huge difference. And while the Maidens are important, they haven't contributed even NEAR as much as Yukari. Yukari MADE the maidens what they are now, and may have granted their powers in the first place.

You are missing the key point here. If you read through to PMiSS it will answer basic questions about the character. Here is the downside, while PMiSS is pretty vast and detailed it will also rise too many questions. Questions impossible to answer because simply nobody knows. You end up in these type of discussions like Tengukami mentions before me. Not to forget, PMiSS only covers up to PoFV and BAiJR covers only up to IN. A shame because the profile translations isn't telling us much about the characters past PoFV.

And I meant PMiSS as an EXAMPLE. I meant all ZUN's literary works in general. I just picked the one that featured the most characters as an example of the info ZUN gives. I meant to say CiLR, SSiB, PMiSS, CoLA and every other story. I didn't mean PMiSS was proof, just that it is an example of the hard work ZUN puts in to expand the personalities of each character. Am I that hard to understand?

Also in his UFO Interview he does show he does research and plenty of thinking about the characters and their songs, but I don't call it philosophical; more like creative thinking.

The way he talks and describes everything looks highly philosophical to me. Especially evident in CoLA. Rinnosuke, and thus ZUN, has a deep view on the ways of Gensokyo. A normal person doesn't talk like that.

Subjective point of view, I partially don't agree, people mark him that way. It was said above that he didn't know what to do with Toramaru Shou.

And so what if he couldn't think anything for Shou? He eventually did come up with something, didn't he? You don't need to be an infinite pool of inspiration to make a series. Any writer can get writer's block eventually. Don't try and say he is a fool just because of that.

I still don't believe Yukari is Maribel or visa versa. One of the reasons is because Yukari is able to enter the real world and Gensokyo, attaining her senses and personality and Maribel cannot. She can only "see" the boundaries (according to profile) which is extremely vague explained and can be interpret in many forms. I skimmed through Tiamat's posts, but aside from what we already know, nothing knew is mentioned. Only connections are trying to be made to come to a conclusion.

Abilities grow. Every youkai and magic user starts out with a nigh-useless ability, but with age and experience it develops, becomes more powerful and useful. Reimu could at first only throw the Hakurei Orb around. And what can Reimu do now? Summon the power of the Gods and turn invincible. She grew. Maribel can grow too.

[Tiamat]

One of the reasons is because Yukari is able to enter the real world and Gensokyo, attaining her senses and personality and Maribel cannot. She can only "see" the boundaries (according to profile) which is extremely vague explained and can be interpret in many forms.

Sigh.  You obviously didn't read my original post.  MY ORIGINAL POST.  Despite this, you choose to argue against my point when you haven't even read what I'm trying to say.    Now you've gone and hurt my feelings. 

Maribel's power is evolving to be able to manipulate borders.  Renko even directly states this in Changeability of Strange Dream.  IT'S RIGHT HERE:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Changeability_of_Strange_Dream:_Story

Beginning of Part 10:

"It's because Mary changed the ability of seeing the boundary to that of manipulate it? No, it's impossible."  ~Renko

(the translation here is a little rough, but it's enough that Renko is obviously saying "Is it because her ability to see boundaries is changing into the ability to manipulate them?")

You can see that Renko says it's impossible,but it's obvious that even Renko herself doesn't believe that.  The whole section is Renko basically screaming to herself, "How is this happening!?  This is supposed to be impossible!"  After all, Maribel just gave Renko some cookies and bamboo shoots that she got in her dreams.  If your best friend walked up to you and said "Here's some stuff I got in my dream!" and gave it to you, you'd be freaking out with "That's impossible!!!!" all over the place, too.

"If some objects in a dream show up, we'll be confused. It's against the law of conservation of mass. Besides, how's the entropy?" ~Renko

[Wylfred]

I lack the research to refute any of your points nor do I have any time in my busy life to. Sorry, will read up when I get the chance to.

[Anon]

Let's see. What you're saying is that Maribel and Yukari are not parallel existences. That Maribel would ultimately become Yukari. Kind of like a time traveler that goes back in time and decides to stay there (one that finds the capablitly to live to the point of catching up with her former self?)? Shallow example I know, but it is a simple one for ease of understanding. After all, Maribel is from the future and Akyu has a note from Maribel that is dated to be centuries old. Therefore, Gensokyo and Maribel are not running parallel.

Of course that brings up a question. Does Gensokoyo time even run like time in the real world? A centuries old note could merely be explained as a difference in time rate between the separated from the real world Gensokyo and the outside world. Or that Gensokyo is chronologically after Maribel's time (Silly I know...Or maybe not.)? Of course, there is Zun's comment on the games happening in the years they're made, so perhaps I am merely flailing my sword at a windmill.

One other question. Does Gensokyo already exist at the time of Maribel's plunge back in time (if I'm understanding your words correctly) in your mind? Though it has nothing to do the current topic, I'm curious.

[Tiamat]

Let's see. What you're saying is that Maribel and Yukari are not parallel existences. That Maribel would ultimately become Yukari. Kind of like a time traveler that goes back in time and decides to stay there (one that finds the capablitly to live to the point of catching up with her former self?)? Shallow example I know, but it is a simple one for ease of understanding. After all, Maribel is from the future and Akyu has a note from Maribel that is dated to be centuries old. Therefore, Gensokyo and Maribel are not running parallel.

Yes, that's correct.  I'll recap the 3 clearest points to this for anyone who's missed it:

1.  ZUN laid out the foundation for this as early as when he named Maribel.  Lafcadio Hearn one day becomes Koizumi Yakumo.  Maribel Hearn one day becomes Yukari Yakumo.

2.  Renko herself notices that Maribel's power is evolving.  Originally, Maribel could only see barriers.  She specifically states that she can not pass through them, even though her clan hopes to be able to one day.  However, in Changeability of Strange Dream, she DOES pass through them, and Renko then realizes (and directly states in 100% clear and certain terms) that Maribel's power os changing to be able to manipulate bboundaries.

3.  The final story of Maribel ends with her about to use Yukari's most well-known power (Yukari's travel to the moon is what made her abilities famous.  This is stated in Perfect Memento)

Of course that brings up a question. Does Gensokoyo time even run like time in the real world? A centuries old note could merely be explained as a difference in time rate between the separated from the real world Gensokyo and the outside world. Or that Gensokyo is chronologically after Maribel's time (Silly I know...Or maybe not.)? Of course, there is Zun's comment on the games happening in the years they're made, so perhaps I am merely flailing my sword at a windmill.

It's implied that Maribel actually went back in time when she travelled to Gensokyo.  She says as much in the memo she left behind in Perfect Memento (and gives a theory why.  Unfortunately, I haven't had time to research into exactly how time slips or Hawking's theory of the reversability of the arrow of time works.  ZUN obviously did, though).  It is notable that she goes farther and farther back with each dream she has.

I imagine part of the answer to this question lies in what Maribel saw at the Hakurei shrine when she visited it.  Unfortunately, it's never revealed what happened there, so we can only speculate.

One other question. Does Gensokyo already exist at the time of Maribel's plunge back in time (if I'm understanding your words correctly) in your mind? Though it has nothing to do the current topic, I'm curious.

The original Gensokyo was created by priests, not Yukari (Source:  Perfect Cherry Blossom's prologue).  So it likely existed even before Maribel ever went back in time and became Yukari.  Yukari would quickly move to claim it as her own, though (if you look at all the various confirmed and various  "likely her own doing" actions Yukari's done throughout history, she's clearly attempting to make Gensokyo into her world (and deviously lying to everyone about it).  There's evidence that she's even attempting to ascend to becoming Gensokyo's ACTUAL god, because Suika reveals in a Hisoutenko win quote that Yukari is attempting to reach Nirvana, and Yukari  is clearly hiding something about her reconstruction of the Hakurei Shrine after she destroyed Tenshi's version.  ...and she hates Suwako and Utsuho in her fighting game winquotes there too, which makes sense because the things Suwako is doing represent the biggest threat to Yukari's grip on power..  In fact, ZUN might even be setting up a war between the two, because Suwako by now is basically Sanae's Yukari, and the foreshadowing in Kanako's profile in Mountain of Faith is pretty explicit.  But... this is future plotline speculation and thus kind of off topic.)

By the present day, Yukari's developed a pretty severe god complex, really.  She's gone so far as  referring to herself as the representation of Gensokyo's reality.  She's also maintaining a pretty darn iron grip on what she wants other people to know and believe (if you read Perfect Memento closely, there are several lies in it that Yukari probably inserted, herself).  It's hard to blame Maribel for becoming like this though, since she's had powers near that of a god's for 1,200 years.  If you had the god-like powers for 1,200 years, you'd probably reach "A God am I" complex, too.

...but yes, Gensokyo did exist even without Yukari around.  Yukari simply moved in and decided to make Gensokyo into her own "reality."  IE, "Yukari decided she would be god and Gensokyo would  be her world to mould as she pleases".  Of course, as I've stated before, another shrine randomly poofing into Gensokyo with its own gods who have their own ideas of what they want for Gensokyo is obviously going to be a wrench in that idea, but again, that's future plotline speculation.

[OkashiiKisei]

because Suika reveals in a Hisoutenko win quote that Yukari is attempting to reach Nirvana, and Yukari  is clearly hiding something about her reconstruction of the Hakurei Shrine after she destroyed Tenshi's version.  ...and she hates Suwako and Utsuho in her fighting game winquotes there too, which makes sense because the things Suwako is doing represent the biggest threat to Yukari's grip on power..  In fact, ZUN might even be setting up a war between the two, because Suwako by now is basically Sanae's Yukari, and the foreshadowing in Kanako's profile in Mountain of Faith is pretty explicit.  But... this is future plotline speculation and thus kind of off topic.)

Can youkai even become Celestials? I'm starting to wonder that. Youkai can't become ghosts, but are they capable of becoming Celestials?

But didn't Yukari's Perfect Memento profile state she was there during Gensokyo's creation? (Along with Dragon God and several other powerful youkai.) I'm pretty sure she was the one who gathered the youkai together and made the border with some of these divine beings.

Never mind. Found the Touhou Wiki article saying the youkai reinforced the border. Apparently Yuyuko even claims Yukari couldn't make such a powerful border by herself. But that really bothers me: why do so many people claim Yukari isn't that powerful even though she can do absolutely everything? Just think of a concept, then imagine the opposite (thus making a boundary) and voila: you can control it. And can't Yukari boost her powers greatly with 'the Border of Strength and Weakness' or 'the Border of Stasis and Development'? She could increase her own power, allowing her to do more amazing things. I can imagine she isn't that powerful combat wise (compared to official deities like Shikieiki, Shinki and Dragon God), but ability/miracle wise she can do everything. Why all this looking down on Yukari?

[Bias Bus]

Why all this looking down on Yukari?

Because she's NOT a god. Just a youkai.

I have a theory that states that perhaps the power she has isn't compatible with the body she has. The powers of a god handed down to a youkai? Seems strange doesn't it. I suspect that Yukari's powers are something like this, but work in a sense that she CAN'T do somethings UNLESS she is a god herself.

In short, her ability is all she has putting her into this god like complex she has. Take that away and what do you have?

[Treasurance]

Wait...So Maribel isn't just Yukari's daughter? Whatever, better not get into this.

[Tiamat]

Can youkai even become Celestials? I'm starting to wonder that. Youkai can't become ghosts, but are they capable of becoming Celestials?

Personally, I think she's trying to become a god, not a celestial, but I'll admit that celestial could be a possibility (I don't see why Yukari would want to become that, though. Considering how manipulative she's been in the course of her lifetime, she clearly is infatuated with being in control, and celestials mostly just eat peaches and fish all day long)

Meanwhile, gods like Suwako and Kanako are going crazy with manipulating Gensokyo to their whims (or trying to) while enjoying the power of a god at the same time.  My guess is that this is what Yukari herself is striving for (and the few signs we can see from in-game dialogues point to that she is not happy that Suwako and Kanako are around now)

Suwako herself actually has a ton of parallels to Yukari, too.  Maybe I'll get to listing those later, but there are first a few more Maribel Yukari things I'd like to get around to.

But didn't Yukari's Perfect Memento profile state she was there during Gensokyo's creation? (Along with Dragon God and several other powerful youkai.) I'm pretty sure she was the one who gathered the youkai together and made the border with some of these divine beings.

Never mind. Found the Touhou Wiki article saying the youkai reinforced the border. Apparently Yuyuko even claims Yukari couldn't make such a powerful border by herself. But that really bothers me: why do so many people claim Yukari isn't that powerful even though she can do absolutely everything? Just think of a concept, then imagine the opposite (thus making a boundary) and voila: you can control it. And can't Yukari boost her powers greatly with 'the Border of Strength and Weakness' or 'the Border of Stasis and Development'? She could increase her own power, allowing her to do more amazing things. I can imagine she isn't that powerful combat wise (compared to official deities like Shikieiki, Shinki and Dragon God), but ability/miracle wise she can do everything. Why all this looking down on Yukari?

We don't know the maximum extent of Yukari's abilities, but we do know such a maximum extent exists (even if it's a really REALLY high maximum).  Toyohime is able to counteract Yukari's border abilities with her own, for example.  And of course, Yukari tries to avoid Shikieiki when she can (Haha, it's kind of funny trying to imagine what her first meeting with Shikieiki was like.  I wouldn't be surprised Yukari's extremely morally questionable history, which Shikieiki has the power to see, was enough to make the normally-calm Shikieiki have a complete spazzing fit)

A comment from an SWR staff member for Yukari's "summon train" spell card states that the weakness of the card is that it takes time for Yukari to open the border.  Perhaps this is one of the limitation in Yukari's abilities.  Yea, she can manipulate borders, but it takes time to actually do so, and time is possibly one of the few things Yukari can't control (at least, not manually. The time slip  that sent Maribel back 1,200 years was probably not done on purpose).  In Marsia's battle with Yukari in PCB's extra, Yukari manipulates the border between day and night, but even doing that doesn't change the TIME.  This is something that is made clear when it's revealed at the end that time was passing normally despite Yukari playing around with the border between night and day.  This is again shown in Imerpsiahble Night, where Yukari can prolong the night by futzing around with the border between night and day, but time still passes, to the point where you get the bad ending if time runs out.  Yukari also is constantly saying things like "I don't have time for this" in several games (her fight with Suika in SWR, and I'm pretty sure she said it in Impersihable Night too, but I forget where off the top of my head).

If Yukari was really capable of manipulating time, she probably would have gone back and taken Renko, since there's evidence she still misses her friend (Yukari's infatuation with physics and numbers, which was Renko's specialty)

Indirectly, Toyohime managed to beat Yukari due to time as well.  Yukari couldn't win because the border trap was set 1,000 years ago, and Toyohime specifically brings this up.  The implication is that Yukari can't travel back in time and change the past to remove that trap.

I imagine there are other limitations, too, but time is definately one of the most probable ones.

[OkashiiKisei]

We don't know the maximum extent of Yukari's abilities, but we do know such a maximum extent exists (even if it's a really REALLY high maximum).  Toyohime is able to counteract Yukari's border abilities with her own, for example.  And of course, Yukari tries to avoid Shikieiki when she can (Haha, it's kind of funny trying to imagine what her first meeting with Shikieiki was like.  I wouldn't be surprised Yukari's extremely morally questionable history, which Shikieiki has the power to see, was enough to make the normally-calm Shikieiki have a complete spazzing fit)

A comment from an SWR staff member for Yukari's "summon train" spell card states that the weakness of the card is that it takes time for Yukari to open the border.  Perhaps this is one of the limitation in Yukari's abilities.  Yea, she can manipulate borders, but it takes time to actually do so, and time is possibly one of the few things Yukari can't control (at least, not manually. The time slip  that sent Maribel back 1,200 years was probably not done on purpose).  In Marsia's battle with Yukari in PCB's extra, Yukari manipulates the border between day and night, but even doing that doesn't change the TIME.  This is something that is made clear when it's revealed at the end that time was passing normally despite Yukari playing around with the border between night and day.  This is again shown in Imerpsiahble Night, where Yukari can prolong the night by futzing around with the border between night and day, but time still passes, to the point where you get the bad ending if time runs out.  Yukari also is constantly saying things like "I don't have time for this" in several games.

If Yukari was really capable of manipulating time, she probably would have gone back and taken Renko, since there's evidence she still misses her friend (Yukari's infatuation with physics and numbers, which was Renko's specialty)

Indirectly, Toyohime managed to beat Yukari due to time as well.  Yukari couldn't win because the border trap was set 1,000 years ago, and Toyohime specifically brings this up.  The implication is that Yukari can't travel back in time and change the past to remove that trap.

I imagine there are other limitations, too, but time is definately one of the most probable ones.

That all seems very possibl. Yukari would have solved a lot more of her troubles (like the Moriya threat) is she had no limitations. And no matter how powerful you are, the hierarchy always remains the same: humans < youkai < Gods (as depicted in Japanese mythology). You might be a powerful youkai, but there will always be a God to best you (and I'm talking about 'real' Gods, the ones who don't need faith like Shikieiki, Shinki and Dragon God). Yukari still greatly fears Shikieiki, and Shinki created her own entire dimension filled with life, something I doubt even Yukari could do. And Dragon God is, well, THE God.

Also regarding Toyohime:

*takes a sip from coffee mug, and then promptly spits it out into the computer screen*

TOYOHIME HAS BORDER POWERS?!

....That explains why Yukari didn't just gap Toyohime's brains out when she threatened her with a fan.

Wow, I missed out on a lot.

[Moerin]

The implication is that Yukari can't travel back in time and change the past to remove that trap.

This, of course, means that Yukari can't possibly be Maribel.  Because Maribel is from the future.

So, uh... Yeah.

[Serela]

This, of course, means that Yukari can't possibly be Maribel.  Because Maribel is from the future.

So, uh... Yeah.

Yea, she can manipulate borders, but it takes time to actually do so, and time is possibly one of the few things Yukari can't control (at least, not manually. The time slip  that sent Maribel back 1,200 years was probably not done on purpose).

Besides, if you believe Maribel travels back in time, the other things that must be believed for that to work pretty much secure that Yukari=Maribel anyway.

[Tiamat]

This, of course, means that Yukari can't possibly be Maribel.  Because Maribel is from the future.

So, uh... Yeah.

I fail to see any place where Maribel ever manipulated time on purpose.

Fact: Maribel couldn't control how she travelled through time.  All the cases where she time travelled wasn't on purpose.

Fact (far as we know):  Yukari can't (at least, not yet) control any travel through time.

There is no contradiction.

It should be noted that when Renko stated that Maribel's power was evolving to be able to control borders, Renko didn't know Maribel was travelling through time either.  Maribel never mentioned the time-travel part to Renko (she probably just forgot to, because she's clearly aware of it in her Perfect Memento memo.  The girl just woke up holding cookies and bamboo shoots that she received in her dreams.  Give her a break!).  The ability to control borders and the ability to control time are probably two different things.

[OkashiiKisei]

I fail to see any place where Maribel ever manipulated time on purpose.

Fact: Maribel couldn't control how she travelled through time.  All the cases where she time travelled wasn't on purpose.

Fact (far as we know):  Yukari can't (at least, not yet) control any travel through time.

There is no contradiction.

It should be noted that when Renko stated that Maribel's power was evolving to be able to control borders, Renko didn't know Maribel was travelling through time either.  Maribel never mentioned the time-travel part to Renko.  The ability to control borders and the ability to control time are probably two different things.

So if you cross breed Yukari with Sakuya/Keine you get the ultimate youkai? :V

[Tiamat]

So if you cross breed Yukari with Sakuya/Keine you get the ultimate youkai? :V

Just Sakuya.  Keine can't do anything to Yukari (I'll expound on this part later.  I need to go do something right now)

[Alfred F. Jones]

This thread broke my brain. I am weak.

For your trouble, dear Tiamat. I dare you to make it into your avatar just for kicks. :]

[Bias Bus]

So if you cross breed Yukari with Sakuya/Keine you get the ultimate youkai? :V

Also, Keine can't time travel, but I'm sure you didn't mistake her history powers for that.

[OkashiiKisei]

Also, Keine can't time travel, but I'm sure you didn't mistake her history powers for that.

Sakuya can't time travel either. I however assumed that the combining genes of boundary and time/history power might allow time travel power. Genetics is fun! :V

[Tiamat]

Yukari Maribel pic

Hmm, yea, that's an awesome pic.  But... I'm too busy typing posts to convert it and upload it to a photobucket account right now.  Maybe later.

TOYOHIME HAS BORDER POWERS?!

She does.  It's only briefly brought up in Silent Sinner in Blue, but Cage in Lunatic Runegate confirms she does.  You can read the Cage in Lunatic Runegate chapter at Touhouwikia (or at least, most of them.  Sadly the final ones aren't translated, but the one that shows Toyohime's border powers is).  They call it a barrier there but it is shown that Toyohime has the power to manipulate it.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Cage_in_Lunatic_Runagate:_Chapter_3

(Toyohime also wields a fan and wears a ribbon in her hat.  She's obviously meant to be the moon's Yukari, symbollically speaking of course.  If you really wanted to, you could come up with all sorts of speculations about her being an alternate universe Maribel, but that's ridiculously speculative)

The Lunar Capital is in a separate world just like Gensokyo (Pretty sure both Magical Astronomy and Cage in Lunatic Runegate state this).  In a way, you could call it the moon's Gensokyo.  So it's logical that the moon's denizens would have their own Border people to maintain it. 

""The lunar capital is on the far side of the moon, protected by a barrier that hides its existence. As long as that barrier is in place, a human could never reach it. To make its way into that barrier, the crow would have to fly along a predetermined route, but somehow it was following the sea road that should have been invisible to it. With almost computer-like accuracy. ""

"A barren mountain devoid of grass or trees, the remnants of machines from the humans' lunar expeditions, a black sky. And, a world without any air.

The desolate near side of the moon - this is the lunar world that the humans discovered. It is an exceedingly cruel, lonely world.

Having suddenly lost its atmosphere and gravity, the crow spiraled slowly towards the ground, foaming at the mouth. Before long, it expired. Unable to breathe, it asphyxiated.

I have the power to connect the mountains and sea. I am also the only person with the power to connect the near and far sides of the moon.

Once I'd confirmed that the crow was no longer moving, the sea was filled again with water, and our plentiful land came into view once more.
"

(this also makes Toyohime the only character to actually kill something "on-screen" in the Touhouverse)

But... I'm getting off topic now.

Sakuya can't time travel either. I however assumed that the combining genes of boundary and time/history power might allow time travel power. Genetics is fun! :V

Perfect Memento states that she could technically reverse time, but it's difficult and the way it's done ends up being that she might as well not have reversed  time at all.

I had a speculation where Maribel met an alternate universe Sakuya on the moon (before Remilia changed Sakuya's fate) which led to Maribel's ultimate time slip, but I have trouble believing this theory is true, because Maribel already met Sakuya earlier, which implies that Sakuya existed even when Yukari didn't. (and yes, I did examine Maribel's and Sakuya's meeting, and all the connotations it implies.  Again, I'll go into that later)

My current wild mass guessing theory is tha Maribel ran into alternate universe kaguya, who has the power to control eternity, and her powers mixed with Maribel's to send Maribel flying back in time.  If you remember the original bamboo story, it had a bad ending where Kaguya goes back to the moon in the end even though she wanted to stay on earth.  Of note is that Yukari's first sightings were 1,200 years ago, and Kaguy's story in the Touhouverse takes place 1,200 years ago as well.  But.... again, this is COMPLETELY speculation.  .This theory too has its own problems, because Yukari doesn't seem to recognize Kaguya in Imperishable Night (she DOES, however, recognize Mokou, which at least confirms she remembers her Mokou meeting as Maribel.  ... er, well, at least, it implies it.  Again, I'll go into that later).  Alright, it's time for me to get back on topic, now.

I promised I'd go more into Keine and Sakuya in regards to Yukari, so here we go.  I'll start with Keine.  Stay tuned while I write it up!  ...yea.

[shadowbringer]

the thought of Maribel doing things like this still seems too weird for me :p

Anyways, there's still the possibility that Maribel is a relative. If Yukari really wanted to limit people's knowledge of the outside world, she would have to deal with the humans that come from the outside, who're often talked to by villagers. Plus, she would have to silence Sanae, and wouldn't have explained to Kourin what a Game Boy was, in fact.

My thoughts? Zun may like this inconclusiveness. Or he may not be much consistent, maybe sometimes making stuff on a whim (Ichirin, Byakuren). He knows that he must make fun games that he would enjoy, and it's reasonable that he would try to justify the events that happen on the games, including the creation of the spellcard system (for example, "the same attack is not to be repeated" is why you don't see the same spellcards being used more than once in a single credit. Not counting the melee attacks on the fighting games, and perhaps Yorihime's usage of the fire pillars against Sakuya -- though congrats to Yorihime for realizing that Sakuya couldn't teleport herself out of a tight cage of pillars, after noticing that part of Sakuya's dress was burned after the first fire pillar attack. Though this may also mean that Sakuya didn't defeat/timeout Yorihime's spellcard)

About Yukari filling the role of a god, it's known that she's not omnipotent, and also not omniscient (or else, she would've known enough about the geysers and earth spirits during SA, and wouldn't have to send Reimu down there. And she could very well have stopped Tenshi, before she destroyed the shrine for the first time during SWR. And.. -- in case Yukari just wanted Reimu and others to know/meet said characters and/or make concessions to them, letting them attain a certain degree of their objectives, be them interests or entertainment.. or ZUN didn't intended Yukari to be omniscient, because the stories are really meant to justify the game's events -- Yukari didn't knew exactly what was the treasure that Yuyuko had stolen in the Lunar Capital. Among other things.)

About Yukari and Maribel being the same person in parallel worlds (as in one being active while the other sleeps), Yukari just outlives Maribel :p

About the "dream world" expanding until it swallows the "real world", it seems that the "real world"'s influence made many youkai (and the Moriya "team") to migrate into Gensokyo, which was stated (by Akyu) to not be much large to contain so much youkai/people (however, other places such as Hakugyokurou aren't counted, it seems). With science/logic's influence getting stronger (in Maribel/Renko's future), while Akyu had stated that the youkai of today are just as powerful as before, it may be possible that the "real world" becomes a "minority", instead, but not removed. (Plus, the Hakurei Barrier was originally meant to contain the youkai in the region known as Gensokyo)

About Yukari just using Reimu/the other shrine maidens. Well, the spellcard rules were made so that youkai and humans could keep fighting each other, but without lethal outcomes. This was necessary so that the youkai's powers didn't fade with time, from lack of usage of their abilities. If they were to be weakened by that, they could be overpowered by humans, and/or powerful outsiders (I think I've said somewhere else, that MoF was a nice, subtle example -- even though Kanako did care about the "power balance" of the youkai at the top of the mountain, and those anywhere else, hence why she wanted to overtake the Hakurei Shrine. Speaking of not-so subtle examples, UFO was another one, where Byakuren was a direct comparison subject with the old-time Gensokyo, but perhaps not limited to that region. Byakuren is such an old relic :p).
I disagree that Yukari just manipulates the miko, because they're a required element on the human vs. youkai balance. Without that element, there would be no one (outside of the incident-solving "imitators") to defend the humans, and that would mean that youkai would either have to fight themselves, to preserve their powers (since if they can't attack regular humans without killing them, outside of spellcard battles, their food-supply or source of powers would be depleted sooner or later. Akyu states that youkai do defend the human villages against other youkai.). Sure, youkai could fight themselves in spellcard battles, but then, there would be no one to defend humans' interests if/when needed. (though Yukari did bug Reimu to help youkai in IN and SA, for example)

Finally, I do appreciate the effort you've put in your thoughts and research.

[Slaves]

Hmm, yea, that's an awesome pic.  But... I'm too busy typing posts to convert it and upload it to a photobucket account right now.  Maybe later

here you are.