東方意地奴 ~ Touhou Ijiyatsu - Monarchly Moron (Ver. 1.00e)

[N-Forza]

Eh, I'll come up with a profile for my character later, once I'm actually in a game as more than an Embodiment/Last Word. Also, all Spechul Membahs who are also Embodiments should be in stage 6, Extra, or OMES.

Drake's idea sounds good, and I like the idea of giving ranks (or 'musings' as it was called) based on performance. We need to make sure we don't set the highest rank too low or high though.

[Moerin]

[idea]

Meh, why not?  I think you should go for it~

[Nobu]

I fully support this idea Drake. o/

[trancehime]

floor(power) - ((1-bombed)/2) + ((10-lives)*0.05) - 1

This idea seems pretty well-supported, and personally I'm against the idea of rewarding the player if they BOMB MOAR, but I suppose there's a decent amount of logic behind it.

[Serp]

Yeah, I was just about to ask whether we're sure that we want to encourage the player to bomb so much.  It seems like some of our cooler danmaku concepts will go to waste if the average player would be smarter to just autobomb through them.  Did I miss it when the reasoning behind this was explained?

[LHCling]

Yeah, I was just about to ask whether we're sure that we want to encourage the player to bomb so much.  It seems like some of our cooler danmaku concepts will go to waste if the average player would be smarter to just autobomb through them.  Did I miss it when the reasoning behind this was explained?

I'm under the impression that the bomb stock is also "limited" from the discussion earlier. So there's really no reason to bomb, and at the same time, you can't bombspam your way to victory *coughMoFcough*

[♛ Apher-Forte]

similiarly you guys should not make it so hard it is impossible for us easy mode players.

[N-Forza]

similiarly you guys should not make it so hard it is impossible for us easy mode players.

yeah seriously

[Nobu]

So if the person doesn't bomb at -all-  on a single life, he gets X amount of power dropped if he dies, but if he does bomb in that life and then dies sometime afterwards, he gets a little bit more than X power?

I feel like that'd be something that a lot of players wouldn't notice at first, and when they do they'd get confused with some going "What's the point of this?" It doesn't seem to so much reward bombing as it does punish if you failed to bomb when you should/could have.


Obligatory:

[♛ Apher-Forte]

Obligatory:

Touhou is bad because ZUN designs bad games to drive away his game's players

[trancehime]

So if the person doesn't bomb at -all-  on a single life, he gets X amount of power dropped if he dies, but if he does bomb in that life and then dies sometime afterwards, he gets a little bit more than X power?

I feel like that'd be something that a lot of players wouldn't notice at first, and when they do they'd get confused with some going "What's the point of this?" It doesn't seem to so much reward bombing as it does punish if you failed to bomb when you should/could have.

Wow... That's going to be like the death of me xD

I mean, bombing at the right time is good, and perhaps it might be good to punish players for not doing so, but the way I see it it's going to encourage more and more bombing and something about that really rubs me the wrong way.

[Dragoshi]

Wow... That's going to be like the death of me xD

I mean, bombing at the right time is good, and perhaps it might be good to punish players for not doing so, but the way I see it it's going to encourage more and more bombing and something about that really rubs me the wrong way.

This, pretty much. :x

[Drake]

Nobu has a point, I might need to rethink it just a bit. It does seem awfully like a negative encouragement than a positive one.

[nintendonut888]

I'm not entirely sure about how this whole "encouraging bombing" works, but generally that's a bad thing.

[Nobu]

See, i'm actually -less- worried about this encouraging bombing honestly. Bombing is already itself enough of an encouragement "invulnerability time, takes the place of a life, easier to come by, deals a lot of damage". A piddly amount of power is not enough to turn people into bomb freaks. After all, no one ever consciously dies with bombs in stock if they can help it, because it's just a complete waste. It's always by accident.

What this "could" encourage slightly is the 'dying with bombs is a waste, use all your bombs' mentality, but everyone already agrees that's what you should be doing anyway.


With this said, the issue I had with it is one of 'outward face'. While a little bit of power wouldn't make much of a difference most of the time, it's still a "Man, so I screwed up and took a risk instead of bombing, and I get less power because of it on top of the life loss? This is stupid." It's about what the player reaction would be.


</psych>  :V

[Naut]

Don't encourage bombing in any way, shape or form. Especially since the player bombs are so different... I mean, Gpop's doesn't even do any damage (which I don't agree with, I might add).

Naut should be working on Zengar and Gpop, but he's waiting for me to give him the power system base code.

Indeed. The latest playable versions of all the player scripts are posted in the programming thread, the actual latest versions of the scripts don't even work, so it's no use posting them (not having any problems, just not finished yet).

I'll also be starting the Rou player script soon, since Skye is almost done with those sprites. Any ideas on the shot type/design for RouA and RouB would be awesome.

[Matsuri]

I'm not entirely sure about how this whole "encouraging bombing" works, but generally that's a bad thing.

Only in Touhou. :V

[Drake]

Well then, should it just be floor(power) + (lives*0.05) - 1? I'm under the impression that you might get a lot of power during the stages, so the amount of power you get back shouldn't be super huge. Evidently this is also what ZUN thought when he got rid of bombs:power, but losing 1 power and getting back 0.07 power was a slap in the face, so I want to avoid that...

[Nobu]

@Naut: What's your argument against the no-damage Gpop bomb? I don't think it's set in stone after all, and you may have a good point for all we know.

Well, so far we have in the works high-spread/damage as ZengarA, concentrated attack as Zengar B, Remi/MoFMariC as GpopA, and YoumuMyon as GpopB, right?

There's a distinct lack of a homing type so far so one of Rou's shot types should probably have homing elements. As for the other one... hm.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Seconding the 'more power for bombing is nonsensical' sentiment. Also, after you determine how much power the player's going to get back, how to you intend to implement it? Write a formula that spawns the appropriate number of power items, or does the character just come back with the appropriate power?

Naut: I'm not sure where to go for shot type quirks compared with Zengar's slashing and Gpop's phasing. I was thinking something along the lines of 'get a power bonus for every x grazes' or 'get a supernatural border after x grazes', but I wasn't sure.

On the topic of RouA, I think we're really going to have to come down on one side of the fence before we can decide anything. Alice hasn't put anything forward for the project from what I've seen at least, and there's been talk for a while about bringing in Serp instead. Comments?

Meanwhile, since Pesco is still pretty much confirmed for RouB, I had a few ideas where to go there. I was thinking that the options would fire carrot bullets or something of that regard, and to go along with mindhax they'd home in for a certain distance before just moving straight on. Does that seem feasible?

Ninja: This new formula seems okay, but is it possible to add an increment depending on the stage? You're more likely to both die and need max power on later stages, after all.

[Matsuri]

Well then, should it just be floor(power) + (lives*0.05) - 1? I'm under the impression that you might get a lot of power during the stages, so the amount of power you get back shouldn't be super huge. Evidently this is also what ZUN thought when he got rid of bombs:power, but losing 1 power and getting back 0.07 power was a slap in the face, so I want to avoid that...

Yeah, that was a bad way of encouraging bombing on ZUN's part. Reminds me of earlier shmups that have checkpoints when you die-- and you restart with nothing, making it pretty much impossible to go on.

[Pesco]

I intend to make Rou work harder for higher rewards. Give him a not-so-nice shot but a clear difference in scoring capability via increasing base item values by 5-10%.

I'm thinking of options that move like windscreen wipers. Spread with inconsistent damage.

[FinnKaenbyou]

That seems counter-productive in that the result will be that playing with the Rou shottype will make it nigh-impossible to actually kill enough enemies to make anything of the item bonus. Perhaps if you want to make things harder, give the Rou shot type the fastest unfocused speed a la Sakuya?

[Pesco]

Forgot about having a gayass move speed :V

That works too.

[Matsuri]

I intend to make Rou work harder for higher rewards. Give him a not-so-nice shot but a clear difference in scoring capability via increasing base item values by 5-10%.

I'm thinking of options that move like windscreen wipers. Spread with inconsistent damage.

It's a decent idea for crowd control, but it would make boss fights exponentially more difficult unless you shotgun or something.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Forgot about having a gayass move speed :V

That works too.

We could even justify it in-game - 'too busy considering fiction ideas to pay close attention to where she's going'.

[Nobu]

Funny, I was actually just going to jump on IRC and talk to you about Rou x Serp for your A shottype. :V

I think Serp is better suited for the role than Alice honestly (but that may have to do with the fact that I'm more familiar with Serp). But objectively, it seems to me that Serp has a greater presence around here, he's around so it'd be more likely we could get the dialog done, and plus Serp would be easier logistic-wise instead of having to work 'Alice Margatroid' into the game. Those are my thoughts.


Rou, Pesco: What if you had a score multiplier, but only when unfocused? Focused would be increased power (Because Pesco is actually contributing more), but a loss of score bonus (Because Pesco is >:| for Rou having to rely on him so no score bonus for him)

[FinnKaenbyou]

I think Serp is better suited for the role than Alice honestly (but that may have to do with the fact that I'm more familiar with Serp). But objectively, it seems to me that Serp has a greater presence around here, he's around so it'd be more likely we could get the dialog done, and plus Serp would be easier logistic-wise instead of having to work 'Alice Margatroid' into the game. Those are my thoughts.

I was worried about irritating Alice about throwing him out without warning, but the fact is I mentioned this to him a few weeks ago on IRC. A contribution was promised, and nothing happened.
I'm considering, then, for Rou A to have something like a snake option to emulate Shou's curvy lasers. Does that make sense?

This is probably also the cue to find designs for the Rou shot types, since as yet they're the only in-game characters yet to be drawn. I know that Ruro was working on a Serpko picture...

Rou, Pesco: What if you had a score multiplier, but only when unfocused? Focused would be increased power (Because Pesco is actually contributing more), but a loss of score bonus (Because Pesco is >:| for having to rely on him so no score bonus for you)

This is genius. But is it programmable?

[Jana]

Just a quick post to say that I'm keeping up with this thread. I've been without time to hang out online and on IRC, but I can still check in here for updates.

It started as a discussion about 2012 for god's sake.

I am happy to not be the only person who remembers this.

[Naut]

@Naut: What's your argument against the no-damage Gpop bomb? I don't think it's set in stone after all, and you may have a good point for all we know.

Well, the problem with Gpop having a no damage bomb is that it makes me want to compensate the character for the lack of spellcard killing power. For example, the other characters have the ability to [nearly] kill off a whole spellcard, where as Gpop is always stuck trying to kill it no matter what. The two-three seconds of invincibility is not really worth making up for the lack of power, considering the other character bombs are also invincible. Think of that stupid character from SA, where she is granted that field of invincibility for a certain time, and if you don't use it you get 0.5 of your power back. What a piece of shit bomb.

There's a distinct lack of a homing type so far so one of Rou's shot types should probably have homing elements. As for the other one... hm.

Sure. I'm trying to avoid direct homing like Reimu's in almost all the games, maybe a workaround like Sanae A. Not because it isn't programmable (the former would actually be easier), but because I hate homing characters to the very core of their existance, but I understand that most people will want to play the easy character.

Rou, Pesco: What if you had a score multiplier, but only when unfocused? Focused would be increased power (Because Pesco is actually contributing more), but a loss of score bonus (Because Pesco is >:| for Rou having to rely on him so no score bonus for him)

This is genius. But is it programmable?

Yes. How about the multiplier increases the more you graze over time (like SA)?