This just struck me about SSIB...

[Lt Colonel Summers]

It is mentioned in Silent Sinner in Blue that Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, the Apollo 13 astronauts were actually soldiers sent to attack the Lunar Capital.
Normally this is just conspiracy fuel for the Moon Landing Hoax. But then this specific detail hits me like a meteorite...

Neil and Buzz were the only Americans mentioned in Touhou canon. Everyone else in the series were either East Asian or European...
Which can only mean that the United States in the Touhou-verse founded NASA as not a scientific research organization, but a military subdivision with a cover-up name. That also meant that the USA knew about the civilization behind the moon, and to an extent, Gensokyo...

Possible future storyline where the Lunarians and Gensokyo are forced into an Enemy Mine to fight off the USA?
Your ideas about this WMG?

[TresserT]

My memory isn't the best, but I thought it was all just a misunderstanding. There was never actually a war, but imagine- some guy walks up, stabs a flag in your back yard, and says "I claim this land in the name of America!" Okay that was a bad analogy, but you get what I mean. The Lunarians took it as an invasion, thus a declaration of war. Then the moon folk, among other things, blew up Apollo 13, but we earthlings all thought those were either natural accidents or screw ups on NASA's part. Eventually we lost interest in the moon so the Lunarians assumed that they had won the war.

[Drake]

So gonna dump some stuff

There's pretty strong evidence that no fighting or direct conflict ever took place, and no evidence of the Earth even acknowledging that the Far Side of the Moon existed at all. The setup is that the Moon thinks that the only reason the Earth would ever want to explore space or the Moon would be to claim the Moon as their own, i.e. an affront to them. Under this self-centered mindset, they perceive the lunar expeditions and planting the flag as an attempt to claim territory and an active act of aggression towards the Lunar Capital, when really there was no such thing.

We get this very telling set of statements from Eirin:
"The humans had spoken of building a base on the moon, but in the end they ran back home before ever deciding on a place or even acquiring the means to do such a thing. It was a terrible defeat for the humans. "

The popular stories on the news at the time of the lunar expeditions were often futurist and theorizing about building colonies on the moon, which is where she gets this from. The missions to the moon were never about actually building any bases, so the Lunarians conclude that they were just stupidly inept planners and left when they realized they had come all the way to the moon completely unprepared. Lastly we get the term "defeat", which is often used by the Lunarians when referring to this. The lunar missions were extremely successful to us, but because they didn't take any territory or anything it's seen as a failure, or a defeat.

"The humans' lunar landings were reported as a great success in the outside world, but their failures were not. The humans kept losing after their first landing, so eventually they stopped returning to the moon. And we, who'd remained in contact with the moon, knew how every time they tried to establish a base, they'd failed."

What she's saying here is that the lunar landings were a source of great celebration and generated tons of hype, but the less spectacular missions where they didn't land weren't talked about as much. To the Lunarians, every space mission the Earth put forth that wasn't about landing on the moon was seen as a failure because they figured that obviously the only reason you'd have a space mission is to take the Moon. We stopped going to the moon, so we kept "failing", and the later times we did land stuff we didn't build a base, so we still failed.

Reisen left before anything actually came to the Moon, and we have no suggestion that any fighting ever took place at all. They call this a Lunar War because the Lunarians saw it as an act of war, and expected that the Earth would bring soldiers to try and take territory. So, of course they would call the astronauts from the Apollo missions assassins.


Of course, the other explanation is that some humans did know about the Lunar Capital and the missions really were to try and claim territory exactly as the Lunarians thought, and that failures to do so due to spectacular incompetence were really covered up in a conspiracy and they eventually gave up. In which case, yeah, story where we get the Lunar Capital versus wicked OP astronauts give it to me baby.

[Berzul]

Of course, the other explanation is that some humans did know about the Lunar Capital.

Of course you know about which Some Humans I'm talking about, and no they aren't claiming territory, but it is possible they did visit.

[Drake]

Nah I was actually talking about top-secret government or whoever would get NASA to try and take over the moon from its superpowerful inhabitants. Those Humans are way in the future anyways.

[Flandre5carlet]

Reisen left before anything actually came to the Moon, and we have no suggestion that any fighting ever took place at all.

I have a bit of a counterargument to this, if you don't mind. In Phantasmagoria of Flower View, during Reisen's route, Eiki lecture her about the large sin she bears, namely "You abandoned your allies, letting them die, while you're the only one here living happily. [...] For that sake, you'll be judged here! With your allies you left on the moon and their resentment!"

That seems to imply one of two things:
1) Fighting did take place, and Reisen deserted and abandoned her allies letting them die, which is what Eiki sees and lectures her about.
2) Fighting didn't take place, Reisen deserted and is convinced she left her allies to die, which leads Eiki to think that she did leave allies behind; but it's not actually the case.

However, if the latter option was true, then she would most certainly have been aware that no fighting ever took place, due to the "network" in place between all lunar rabbits via Esp waves.  Moreover, Eiki would definitely be able to decipher that these events didn't actually happen if the second option was true: the Cleansed Crystal Mirror allows her to see all of that person's pasts deeds, and she would see that Reisen's desertion did not lead to anybody's death.
Which leaves the first option as the more likely of the two if we consider these factors.

[the old guy]

Which leaves the first option as the more likely of the two if we consider these factors.

I disagree.
If fighting did actually take place between the Apollo 13 astronauts, then Neil Armstrong would have mentioned the lunar rabbits in his after-action report when he came back from the moon, and Erin would have mentioned actual fighting on the moon, instead of "they build some stuff and then left" also, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin FIGHTING SPACE RABBITS ON THE MOON* would be a pretty major plot point, i think Zun would have talked about it in more detail if that was the case.

So my guess is that ether:
1. Eiki was referencing another conflict that happened in the past, that had nothing to do with Apollo 13, but did involve fighting, that Reisen abandoned.
2. Eiki was making shit up/misunderstand something in reisen's past as a excuse to criticize reisen (i doubt this one is the answer, because if its true then Eiki is almost as dumb as Cirno, which is obviously not true.), or that the Crystal Mirror is NOT as powerful as it seems, and has some limit to its power, like only being able to see the past from the subject's prospective, or something like that.
3. Zun's original idea was that the rabbits did fight the astronauts, but then realized how stupid that would be, so he retconed it, but wrote Phantasmagoria of Flower View before he decided that, and thus Eiki's comments about Reisen are no longer canon. (This is not the only thing Zun has retconed something)

Honestly, the other bits of evidence point to "There was no conflict" too much for there to have been an war between astronauts and moon rabbit, and besides, its unlikely that any of Resien's allies would have died, as no astronauts in history has ever brought weapons to the moon, unlike the rabbits, who probably did, so if there was ever a fight, the Astronauts would have been CRUSHED.

*Its possible that it was one of the later lunar missions that led to a conflict, but my two points that 1. Eirin would have mentioned a actual battle and 2. The astronauts would have mentioned it when they came back** still stand.
**Its possible that, in a true Conspiracy Theory fashion, the US government prevented any news of the aliens from reaching the earth, but that still doesn't explain why Eirin never mentions any actual battles or causalities.

Why is anything related to the moon so damn complicated?

[Gilgamesh]

Top secret government knowing about Moon inhabitants, the Moon itself has its own consciousness and sends out a distress signal after Humans first land on the moon because it's taken as a sign of invasion and it wants to defend itself.

Many, many years later. The call is answered by the Aristoteles of the Type-Moon fandom and proceed to raze all life from the surface of the planet leaving only Gensokyo untouched...  :3

[Starxsword]

That seems to imply one of two things:
1) Fighting did take place, and Reisen deserted and abandoned her allies letting them die, which is what Eiki sees and lectures her about.
2) Fighting didn't take place, Reisen deserted and is convinced she left her allies to die, which leads Eiki to think that she did leave allies behind; but it's not actually the case.

It is also mentioned that Eiki tends to exaggerate what could happen to make the person change their ways.
It makes little sense for fighting to have taken place, so the conclusion that fighting didn't take place, but Reisen thought it did was more reasonable and inline with other lore.

[Prime32]

That seems to imply one of two things:
1) Fighting did take place, and Reisen deserted and abandoned her allies letting them die, which is what Eiki sees and lectures her about.
2) Fighting didn't take place, Reisen deserted and is convinced she left her allies to die, which leads Eiki to think that she did leave allies behind; but it's not actually the case.

Even if the war wasn't real, Reisen thought it was, and chose to abandon her allies. It doesn't matter that no one was hurt, the point is that Reisen showed she'd willingly leave people to die.

[Drake]

I have a bit of a counterargument to this, if you don't mind.

No problem. Always welcome.

So my guess is that ether:
1. Eiki was referencing another conflict that happened in the past, that had nothing to do with Apollo 13, but did involve fighting, that Reisen abandoned.
2. Eiki was making shit up/misunderstand something in reisen's past as a excuse to criticize reisen (i doubt this one is the answer, because if its true then Eiki is almost as dumb as Cirno, which is obviously not true.), or that the Crystal Mirror is NOT as powerful as it seems, and has some limit to its power, like only being able to see the past from the subject's prospective, or something like that.
3. Zun's original idea was that the rabbits did fight the astronauts, but then realized how stupid that would be, so he retconed it, but wrote Phantasmagoria of Flower View before he decided that, and thus Eiki's comments about Reisen are no longer canon. (This is not the only thing Zun has retconed something)

*Its possible that it was one of the later lunar missions that led to a conflict, but my two points that 1. Eirin would have mentioned a actual battle and 2. The astronauts would have mentioned it when they came back** still stand.

1) Fighting did take place, and Reisen deserted and abandoned her allies letting them die, which is what Eiki sees and lectures her about.
2) Fighting didn't take place, Reisen deserted and is convinced she left her allies to die, which leads Eiki to think that she did leave allies behind; but it's not actually the case.

I don't think any of these are the case, actually. It's pretty simple, it's just that the sin Reisen bears is precisely that she left her allies behind to die while she ditched them for greener pastures. It doesn't matter whether there ended up being any fighting or not, the fact remains that Reisen's expectation was that she was deserting her comrades. Whether or not Eiki can use the Mirror (which she didn't necessarily use anyways) to know the reality of her situation, doesn't matter. As she goes on to say, it's Reisen's selfishness that's her failure. Reisen says she's "working hard", but Eiki tells her that time alone isn't enough to fix her sin, nor is merely reflecting or repenting. Because her sin was part of her nature, that she's selfish, only by acknowledging her failures and changing herself would she stop being in danger of going to hell. It isn't an admonition of "your allies died because of you and now you must pay the price" or anything like that at all.

In Phantasmagoria of Flower View, during Reisen's route, Eiki lecture her about the large sin she bears, namely "You abandoned your allies, letting them die, while you're the only one here living happily. [...] For that sake, you'll be judged here! With your allies you left on the moon and their resentment!"

To point out, even though it isn't super important, 見殺し is more of "leaving them to die" rather than plainly stating that they died, much like "you just sat there while X" not necessarily meaning X happened. There are some other slightly liberal wordings in the current translation so I'll go fix those. I think I said I would a while ago and didn't.
EDIT: Done. Check it out, the flavor it gives should be slightly different.

However, if the latter option was true, then she would most certainly have been aware that no fighting ever took place, due to the "network" in place between all lunar rabbits via Esp waves.

Besides what I said above, I also thought this was the case until just a while ago, but unlike what e.g. Kaguya's IN profile suggests, CiLR notes that the rabbit waves isn't a method of accurate conversation at all, but that it's for reading more what they're generally thinking about and picking up rumors, which I suppose is part of the reason rabbits are so unreliable (to note, ZUN also uses the word for "receive" like you would receive a phone call or email, which is cute). Well, she probably would still pick up that her allies didn't die, but I think it's worth mentioning that they aren't literally communicating, but rather listening in.

[Flandre5carlet]

@Everybody who responded to me, those are all some interesting points you brought up.

I think part of my interpretation regarding this was due to the slightly inaccurate translation that Drake pointed out. After giving the fixed translation  a read, it does give off a different vibe, more in line with the idea that no fighting took place, but that it's not really the point at all: rather, the point is that even if nobody was hurt, she was willing to abandon her comrades for her own safety in the first place.
Well, as someone who likes Reisen a lot, I suppose part of it is also from my personal bias in her favor, due to people calling her a coward for deserting when no fighting took place and stuff like that.

Though it still does leave the question of why Reisen has never picked up on the fact that none of her allies were actually hurt and that no fighting took place. Even if it isn't so much communicating as it is "general thinking" and rumours, you'd think she would have found out about it. It's a bit confusing, but I guess it could be an oversight too.

[Tiamat]

Maybe she did pick it up but she's still really ashamed, anyways, I guess.  I can think of a few personalities/cultures that would be.

[Starxsword]

I think part of my interpretation regarding this was due to the slightly inaccurate translation that Drake pointed out. After giving the fixed translation  a read, it does give off a different vibe, more in line with the idea that no fighting took place, but that it's not really the point at all: rather, the point is that even if nobody was hurt, she was willing to abandon her comrades for her own safety in the first place.

Well, as someone who likes Reisen a lot, I suppose part of it is also from my personal bias in her favor, due to people calling her a coward for deserting when no fighting took place and stuff like that.

After Phantasmagoria of Flower Viewing, she may have become a better person because of it. There are several characters that are watching to see if she blooms, so to speak.

Though it still does leave the question of why Reisen has never picked up on the fact that none of her allies were actually hurt and that no fighting took place.

But why would she find out? If there is no event, the rabbits wouldn't talk about it, since it isn't interesting. Reisen also needs to actively try to listen or something. The rumors won't just go to her, otherwise, at the start of Cage in Lunatic Runagate, Reisen would already have known about the rumors of some random invader trying to invade the moon without having to communicate with the rabbits.