Author Topic: 東方 神霊廟 ~ Touhou Ten Desires [TRIAL], an article full of desires and SPOILERS!  (Read 276132 times)

You realize that the cryptic dialogue from stage 3 in Youmu's scenario describes someone who couldn't possibly be Mima right Yay Reincarnation! \o/

So, assuming that spell practice's return means a return of last words, what should we expect to see from them? I personally can only think of nightmarish ideas for Yoshika's last word, with her spirit eating gimmick and all.

I guess the last boss can be a lolified version or a representation of Izanagi, due to the theme of death (trance, Yoshika and her stage). Wonder if we'll see Komachi as a 4th boss, and if Yoshika will be the Extra Stage's midboss, at 10pm as she mentioned on Marisa's scenario.
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Mеа

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I guess the last boss can be a lolified version or a representation of Izanagi, due to the theme of death (trance, Yoshika and her stage). Wonder if we'll see Komachi as a 4th boss, and if Yoshika will be the Extra Stage's midboss, at 10pm as she mentioned on Marisa's scenario.
I think you meant Izanami?
Naked expression; purple raspberry flavour

Y'know, I can't figure out why, but I just don't enjoy playing TD. I liked it when the demo first came out, since it was a super shiny new Toohoos game, but...I dunno, it's just not fun to play. It's not particularly difficult, but playing it frustrates me much more than, say, UFO (which is much harder overall). Hopefully the full version will change my mind.

I dunno, anyone else feel this way?

Drake

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I think you meant Izanami?
is that supposed to be a joke on izanami being female and izanagi being male or did you just not know they were siblings

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KrackoCloud

  • I don't mean to be greedy...
  • ... but white rice is my favorite food.
Y'know, I can't figure out why, but I just don't enjoy playing TD. I liked it when the demo first came out, since it was a super shiny new Toohoos game, but...I dunno, it's just not fun to play. It's not particularly difficult, but playing it frustrates me much more than, say, UFO (which is much harder overall). Hopefully the full version will change my mind.

I dunno, anyone else feel this way?
I know what you mean. I think ZUN's game design and danmaku style are just changing.


Mеа

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is that supposed to be a joke on izanami being female and izanagi being male or did you just not know they were siblings

?
It doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that they're siblings/married but rather with:

I guess the last boss can be a lolified version or a representation of Izanagi, due to the theme of death (trance, Yoshika and her stage). Wonder if we'll see Komachi as a 4th boss, and if Yoshika will be the Extra Stage's midboss, at 10pm as she mentioned on Marisa's scenario.

Because he/she guessed that the last boss was her because of the theme of death, he/she probably meant Izanami, but typed Izanagi instead because the names are similar. To which I replied that perhaps he/she meant Izanami, who is the deity of death, rather than Izanagi who is the deity of creation.
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7TC7

  • In best company
Though this isn't like some other games out there that might leak out bits of content leading up to the release to build all that hype. We'll only know more about Ten Desires once Comiket rolls around.

Well, there is the possibility of the games cover to appear on ZUNs Blog every second now.
Sadly, there is not telling when it will be. SAs cover appeared 10 days before its release, UFOs only 2 days before, so it's all depending on ZUNs whims.

All we know for sure is that it will have a Silhouette on it, which will look oddly like the personified version of the five magic stones everyone has been waiting for since forever ....don't lie to me, you know it's true!  :ohdear:

< picture leads to my YouTube channel

KomeijiKoishi


Y'know, I can't figure out why, but I just don't enjoy playing TD. I liked it when the demo first came out, since it was a super shiny new Toohoos game, but...I dunno, it's just not fun to play. It's not particularly difficult, but playing it frustrates me much more than, say, UFO (which is much harder overall). Hopefully the full version will change my mind.

I dunno, anyone else feel this way?

I don't mind stage1, stage2, some attacks are just annyoing, stage3, i dont really like any of the attack the boss uses, except for her 2nd spellcard. Yea.. im not really into TD either, theres still stages to go and spell practice though.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
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  • I said, with a posed look.
ZUN always has a distinct cut-off point between stages 3 and 4, I find. But there's also this tendency to write off a game before completion. I remember the first screenshots from Double Spoiler had people dismissing it as a game with zero difficulty.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

ZUN always has a distinct cut-off point between stages 3 and 4, I find. But there's also this tendency to write off a game before completion. I remember the first screenshots from Double Spoiler had people dismissing it as a game with zero difficulty.

saying a game has zero difficulty just off screenshots is pretty damn farfetched though, epecially with how touhou games are..

I also don't like the life system though, why are there so few compared to the older games?

The Greatest Dog

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saying a game has zero difficulty just off screenshots is pretty damn farfetched though, epecially with how touhou games are..

I also don't like the life system though, why are there so few compared to the older games?

It seems like it's to balance out with the generally easier patterns.
Harder patterns + Plentiful (potential) lives = UFO
Easier patterns + less lives = Ten Desires.

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
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saying a game has zero difficulty just off screenshots is pretty damn farfetched though, epecially with how touhou games are..

I also don't like the life system though, why are there so few compared to the older games?

I think this is a funny statement actually. In the demo, it is possible to get four lives by the end of stage 3. It's entirely possible that there's an extend item like in UFO, and/or the amount of purple spirits will increase dramatically in the latter stages. Chances are we'll be able to get seven, if not eight lives. This is the same amount you could get in MS and MoF. :B I think everyone's just in shock considering how extend-happy SA and UFO were if you worked the system.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

While TD may seem a little more on the difficulty of Perfect Cherry Blossom, the scoring system puts more pressure on me and makes me prone to mistakes. While this ain't true for Easy/Normal, I still find it demanding as UFO. But saying that, I've been putting more practice into SA and UFO recently and I've settled in with them over time.

I also don't think the scores are going to be as big as the other games, depending on how the system gets tweaked. I can see a good score estimated at around 1 billion, compared to 2-3bil on UFO.

Aba Matindesu!

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I remember the first screenshots from Double Spoiler had people dismissing it as a game with zero difficulty.
how is this possible


teets mi hao 2 2hu teets mi teets mi hao 2 2hu

I think this is a funny statement actually. In the demo, it is possible to get four lives by the end of stage 3. It's entirely possible that there's an extend item like in UFO, and/or the amount of purple spirits will increase dramatically in the latter stages. Chances are we'll be able to get seven, if not eight lives. This is the same amount you could get in MS and MoF. :B I think everyone's just in shock considering how extend-happy SA and UFO were if you worked the system.

perhaps, lives are harder to get everytime you get one though. I also really disliked SA's life system for the extra stage, because youd get no extra lives during the actual stage itself, so it made the learning a little more brutal, but you ended up with just as many lives in the end, i was used to having all my 5 lives at the start of the boss fight.

If we do get as many lives as in the older games, thats cool i guess, i just wish we got to our max amount oflives faster.

But yea, i do admit that UFO and SA lives were pretty out of control. especially UFO : P

At any rate, the full game should be coming out this week, since comiket is happening august 11/12/13 from what i've read on wikipedia, no matter the state of the game, i cant wait for the full thing.. i hope theres lots of unlockables and last words in spell practice just as there were in imperishable night, it's what kept IN interesting for me.

The idea of having more lives, though, just changes the balance dramatically. Having more lives/bombs available, as well as more trance opportunities, is a clever way to abuse the scoring system and avoid half of the bullet patterns on bosses. This kind of faceroll dynamic in the game could actually kill off the challenge and unbalance it. I don't know if that sounds necessary, but having played many of the other games, this is something to consider.


Well, that beats poor me, I don't go further than cider I'm afraid.

lol @ pict

one thing i kinda dislike, is once you figure out some of the lunatic difficulty attacks, they become so much more trivial. It's like most spellcards/nonspellcards are meant to be just prolonged by standing not under the boss. I'm an agressive type player who goes all-in, so this is really against my style to stay in the bottom left corner until the shitstorm on the boss passes, just to have an easy kill.. see stage2's boss last spellcard, it seemed super ultra hard to be the first few times, then when i figured it out, probably one of the easiest lunatic spellcards in touhou history, you have to dodge like 6 bullets with wide open space every volley, just misdirect the big attack on one of the two corners and head to the other corner once the attack launches : P

I think it is one of the easier ones when you can see through it properly. I know it's riskier, but what I usually do is stand above near the boss to gobble those spirits. After the release, I dodge near to either of top corners. My failure rate is about 50/50, but I'm usually happy with the results.


Mеа

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perhaps, lives are harder to get everytime you get one though. I also really disliked SA's life system for the extra stage, because youd get no extra lives during the actual stage itself, so it made the learning a little more brutal, but you ended up with just as many lives in the end, i was used to having all my 5 lives at the start of the boss fight.

If we do get as many lives as in the older games, thats cool i guess, i just wish we got to our max amount oflives faster.

But yea, i do admit that UFO and SA lives were pretty out of control. especially UFO : P

At any rate, the full game should be coming out this week, since comiket is happening august 11/12/13 from what i've read on wikipedia, no matter the state of the game, i cant wait for the full thing.. i hope theres lots of unlockables and last words in spell practice just as there were in imperishable night, it's what kept IN interesting for me.

You might get the same amount of lives in the end... IF you stay alive. You only get the star pieces if you don't die. In other words, every time you die, you essentially lose 1.2 usable lives. And for the people that aren't that good, that's a huge problem, and especially since bombs waste power, and unlike MoF, you only get 4. At least UFO had the decency to still give you star pieces even if you died. Or maybe Nue is just nicer.
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nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
You might get the same amount of lives in the end... IF you stay alive. You only get the star pieces if you don't die. In other words, every time you die, you essentially lose 1.2 usable lives. And for the people that aren't that good, that's a huge problem, and especially since bombs waste power, and unlike MoF, you only get 4.

Truth be told, this is part of the reason I dislike SA as much as I do. I know people dislike when TVtropes is invoked, but it really sums up the lives system in SA perfectly:

Quote
An Unstable Equilibrium occurs when there is a design feature in a game that rewards a player who performs well with advantages that help them in later parts of the game.

This can cause many effects, both good and bad. On the bad side, it can create a situation where early advantages accumulate to the point where the game becomes very easy later on. A player who fails to take early advantages will find the game much harder in the later stages.

Because lives gained is directly tied to how many times you die, the less skilled a player is, the fewer resources the game gives you. It has the ironic conclusion where the only way to get the maximum amount of lives in SA is to prove you don't need any of them.

That said, I do hope the full version gives the less skilled player a chance to gain a usable amount of lives. Even if I'll suck it up and learn how to gain lives, I'd much rather not have to worry about that while dodging lunatic-level danmaku.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

Mеа

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That said, I do hope the full version gives the less skilled player a chance to gain a usable amount of lives. Even if I'll suck it up and learn how to gain lives, I'd much rather not have to worry about that while dodging lunatic-level danmaku.

Now that's what the problem was with UFO, the way to get extra lives and bombs was separate from the core gameplay. You had to focus on 2 things at the same time. Though not that it was a bad idea, it created a different kind of difficulty.

Also I just read up that purple spirits drop 1/10 life fragments, and 1/5 life fragments during trance mode.
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Mimachiro

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Also I just read up that purple spirits drop 1/10 life fragments, and 1/5 life fragments during trance mode.
The number of fragments you need increases for each life you get.

"I don't have anything against you, but I hope you're ready to die a dog's death!
Oh, don't worry, that cat will carry off your body, so you'll be able to live in our place!"

Drake

  • *
Because lives gained is directly tied to how many times you die, the less skilled a player is, the fewer resources the game gives you. It has the ironic conclusion where the only way to get the maximum amount of lives in SA is to prove you don't need any of them.
I know what you're talking about, but if we bring scoring into the topic, it does bring in an extra layer of what the extra lives are actually used for. Scoring in SA you need to be able to suicide for points early on (and later on even), yet still balance it enough to keep your maximum by Utsuho. All the lives you gain early on are used up on Parsee,and then you need to gradually build back up.

When you're simply playing for survival (as you described), the net lives you have isn't directly proportional to how well you do. It could be said then, that the usual complaint of "the game showers you with lives" is invalid. It also means that the difficulty of the game isn't directly proportional to your skill, either. Throughout the course of the game, at best you have 13 lives. In the worst case, you have to die 10 times on life-giving patterns and then one more death in order to game over at SubSun (13-(10/5)= 11, 11-(10+1)=0).

Now that's what the problem was with UFO, the way to get extra lives and bombs was separate from the core gameplay. You had to focus on 2 things at the same time. Though not that it was a bad idea, it created a different kind of difficulty.
UFO has this odd thing going where because you had to focus on two things at the same time, you would die more often. However, that's really only true as you're learning the game; you don't know what UFOs spawn where, and you don't know appropriate times to summon one. The curious thing is that in order to make the game "easier", the players have a tendency to map themselves UFO routes and then enact the same ones every single time (most commonly, to get all the reds). Because it's something you memorize, people can concentrate on the bullets and easily get the UFOs. However, memorization often leads to laziness, and without enough stimulating you, you lose concentration and die. And even still, in most runs, you aren't going to get a perfect route. Something will screw up the route, and then suddenly people are in a panic because they want to get back into their route and they don't know how, so you try bolder moves to get the UFOs, you lose concentration, and die. In general, the more people try to group UFOs together as a route, the more often they will fail. This is why Lunatics in particular focus more on the concept of getting UFOs at a particular point, instead of getting specific UFOs. For stages until 5, mostly you'll want to gather reds and later gather greens, but the methods of which you get them can vary wildly throughout different runs since you don't convince yourself to stick to a predetermined route. This makes for variety, which increases attention and improves your ability to ad lib, which ultimately leads to less deaths and more net lives/bombs. In these runs, there are often rainbow UFOs to adjust your stock, which also have the added bonus of exchanging points for power items, which also helps the whole problem of "you only get .07 power back when you die".
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 12:01:39 AM by Drake »

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The Greatest Dog

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Just watch as the beginning of stage 4 proceeds like this:
1. Bajillions of popcorn enemies to refill trance
2. Tons of life and bomb spirits
3. Even more blue spirits

And it'll all be conveniently spaced so that it's impossible to get both the resources and the score within a single trance.
So what will it be? Double resources or 10x score value?