Jojo's Bizarre Mafia: GAME OVER, ROLES WIN!

[Omba]

I am claiming miller.

Sounds like you're either a townie making a pre-emptive claim or town/scum making a gambit. Only I don't think we have any way of knowing which one it is.
Which pretty much makes it a nulltell.
Also: Is there any connection between the vote on Shadoweh and the claim?

[Lexicat]

Nope. The vote on Shadoweh has its purposes though. I'd rather not explain right now, but I will if pushed~
 

[ActionDan]

You guys don't seem to understand where I'm coming from.

If you haven't noticed (or perhaps ignored the fact), most of the town has barely said even 2 cents worth of anything.  I share your enthusiasm for lynching Scum but I simply wanted town to respond to the idea of quickly lynching an outside player purely for informational purposes. 

This is A) to avoid shadoweh's concern of fast-paced killing of our town, which will more likely than not result in mislynchs and B) to not wait an inordinate amount of time to see what happens after a game-day, for is it not reasonable to assume that waiting too long will hurt town?

@Omba: I think that Shadoweh is the scummiest right now.  Surely if I voted her, the vote would convey the same message and that's about all.

@shadoweh:  Are you calling me lazy scum because even though I made a big to-do over K4U I failed to click the Bold button and type "Vote: K4U"?   I thought you said I sounded "weird."   I agree that the idea I'm advocating could be considered weird, but I fail to understand how "weird" = "lazy scum".

It would also be lovely if you stopped doctoring my intentions, I don't like fast lynches ON TOWNSPEOPLE, but I don't mind a quick lynch on someone NOT PLAYING THE GAME.

Holy crap I was cut.

[Pesco]

Hey look I'm doing the votecount :V

Lady LambdaDelta (1): Schezo
Omba (1): Affinity
Zakeri (1): Zakeri
ActionDan (2) Shadoweh, Omba
PX (0)
capt.h (0)
Schezo (0)
Serpentarius (0):
Kitten4U (0)
Shadoweh (4): Dormio, Serpentarius, PX, LLD
Dormio (0):
Affinity (1) Kitten4u
Edible (0)
blehdibleh (1): Edible
UncertainKitten (2): Capt. h, ActionDan

Not Voting (0): None


With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Game Day One Ends at 1:00 AM, EDT, Thursday (today is Wednesday)

[UncertainJakutten]

The Third "Phantom Blood" Vote Count

Mod Note: No, I'm doing the votecount, because I want to clarify that, yes, a Game Day does not end the voting cycle and you have effectively no deadline. A lynch would, naturally, reset the votecount.

Lady LambdaDelta (1): Schezo
Omba (1): Affinity
Zakeri (1): Zakeri
ActionDan (2): Shadoweh, Omba
PX (0)
capt.h (0)
Schezo (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Kitten4U (0)
Shadoweh (4): Dormio, Serpentarius, PX, LLD
Dormio (0)
Affinity (1): Kitten4U
Edible (0)
blehdibleh (1): Edible
UncertainKitten (2): Capt. h, ActionDan

Not Voting (0)

Shadoweh is at L-3
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Game Day One Ends at 1:00 AM, EDT, Thursday (today is Wednesday)

[Omba]

If you haven't noticed (or perhaps ignored the fact), most of the town has barely said even 2 cents worth of anything.  I share your enthusiasm for lynching Scum but I simply wanted town to respond to the idea of quickly lynching an outside player purely for informational purposes. 

This is A) to avoid shadoweh's concern of fast-paced killing of our town, which will more likely than not result in mislynchs and B) to not wait an inordinate amount of time to see what happens after a game-day, for is it not reasonable to assume that waiting too long will hurt town?

Assuming this is a normal mafia game in that regard, lynching someone who's not part of the game would give scum one free kill. This generally does not seem like a good idea to me, especially on D1.
Anything beyond that is setup speculation. Which is nice and all, but useless if we don't have any additional information. Gambitting on there being additional information to gain does not sound like a good idea at this point.
And yes, it's possible waiting too long could hurt us. But we neither know how long is too long, nor if that's true at all.

@Omba: I think that Shadoweh is the scummiest right now.  Surely if I voted her, the vote would convey the same message and that's about all.

Well. Currently it's saying you're more concerned with speculating about the setup than hunting scum; while there's insufficient information for the speculation to bear any useful fruits.

LLD: Ok then. I'm assuming you'll reveal the reason for that vote while we're still in D1.

[Lexicat]

I won't be giving into a deadline to explain my reasons.
 
It will be explained when it has the most relevance and need.

[Shadoweh]

ohgod it's not even 24 hours and I'm already a wagon what the hell

If you haven't noticed (or perhaps ignored the fact), most of the town has barely said even 2 cents worth of anything.  I share your enthusiasm for lynching Scum but I simply wanted town to respond to the idea of quickly lynching an outside player purely for informational purposes. 

This is A) to avoid shadoweh's concern of fast-paced killing of our town, which will more likely than not result in mislynchs and B) to not wait an inordinate amount of time to see what happens after a game-day, for is it not reasonable to assume that waiting too long will hurt town?

What the hell are you talking about? We don't have to lynch to end the day. Why the hell would we want to 'test lynching a non-player'? You are phrasing WASTING A LYNCH WHICH WILL LIKELY GIVE THE SCUM TEAM A FREE NIGHTKILL as being a good idea, then wondering why I think it is scummy and you sound like scum for wanting it. I think we do, in fact, want to wait an inordinate amount of time to see what happens after a game-day. And no, it doesn't mean the same thing to say you think someone is the scummiest without voting them, because now I have no idea if you've cleared Kitten before deciding I am the SCUMMIEST THING ON EARTH. Put your back into it boyo!

I think I will reserve judgement on your claim and whatever it is you're doing Lambda until I have a fatal heart attack or something.

[Schezo]

Assuming this is a normal mafia game in that regard, lynching someone who's not part of the game would give scum one free kill. This generally does not seem like a good idea to me, especially on D1.
Anything beyond that is setup speculation. Which is nice and all, but useless if we don't have any additional information. Gambitting on there being additional information to gain does not sound like a good idea at this point.
And yes, it's possible waiting too long could hurt us. But we neither know how long is too long, nor if that's true at all.
Well. Currently it's saying you're more concerned with speculating about the setup than hunting scum; while there's insufficient information for the speculation to bear any useful fruits.

LLD: Ok then. I'm assuming you'll reveal the reason for that vote while we're still in D1.

Excuse me?  You going, "I'm setup speculating, claiming I'm not, then speculating some more," is worse than if you were just speculating.  Your whole post reads like a contradiction to me, since you are grilling someone for the same you are doing and responding in a roundabout way that would allow you be able to slip out of later.
##Unvote:
##Vote: Omba

Other than that, I'm not sure what to make of Dan's posts or what he's even trying to say since it just comes off to me as a garbled mess.  LLD may just as well have loaded a gun, placed it on the table and walked off.  Is it safe to assume you have no comments over what has transpired already today?

[Omba]

Excuse me?  You going, "I'm setup speculating, claiming I'm not, then speculating some more," is worse than if you were just speculating.  Your whole post reads like a contradiction to me, since you are grilling someone for the same you are doing and responding in a roundabout way that would allow you be able to slip out of later.

What. I'm saying it's currently pointless and stating why. It might become relevant once we get more information, i.e. on D2.
I'm attacking him for using his vote for that speculation, rather than searching for scum. The speculation by itself is just useless at this point. And his vote says that useless speculation is currently most important to him.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Okay, first of all, the hell?

##Unvote
##Vote Lambda

Get that wine the hell away from me.

ActionDan: Lynching an outside player would be the same as a no lynch, no?
Suggesting a no lynch is bad and you should feel bad.
@Mod: Does lynching an outside player bring about a night period?

Zakeri: Please contribute, instead of simply self voting and leaving it at that.

Yes, no lynching in a NIGHTLESS GAME somehow makes it night. That's TOTALLY how nightless games work.

tl;dr: No. Did you even bother reading the rules?

[Lexicat]

Okay, first of all, the hell?

##Unvote
##Vote Lambda

Get that wine the hell away from me.

ActionDan: Lynching an outside player would be the same as a no lynch, no?
Suggesting a no lynch is bad and you should feel bad.
@Mod: Does lynching an outside player bring about a night period?

Zakeri: Please contribute, instead of simply self voting and leaving it at that.

Yes, no lynching in a NIGHTLESS GAME somehow makes it night. That's TOTALLY how nightless games work.

tl;dr: No. Did you even bother reading the rules?

Ding!
 
We have our first scumspect~
 
Unvote; ##Vote: Dormio
 
Tell me, why is the WIFOM of a Miller Claim worth a vote? By definition, WIFOM is a null tell... and yet you use it here as a scum read? Interesting~
 
Oh, and I was hoping some scum would try to jump on Shadoweh's wagon once it had 4 votes on it. Was waiting for a poor vote placed with weak reasoning.
 
Funnily enough, the Miller claim actually produced more results than my intended reaction fishing did. Shame.

[Shadoweh]

I am totally not just posting after Dormio for +1 Dormio Humiliation. Noooo Lambda whyyyy ;-;

It wouldn't be a night period, but I'll still wager a lynch will give the scum faction their kill no matter how real or imaginary the player may be.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Yes, no lynching in a NIGHTLESS GAME somehow makes it night. That's TOTALLY how nightless games work.

tl;dr: No. Did you even bother reading the rules?

Night period, like the twilight in DtB mafia.
Wherein the scum kills someone.
Whatever.

Anyway.

Tell me, why is the WIFOM of a Miller Claim worth a vote? By definition, WIFOM is a null tell... and yet you use it here as a scum read? Interesting~
 
Funnily enough, the Miller claim actually produced more results than my intended reaction fishing did. Shame.

The very fact that you're claiming miller at this point in the game is highly suspect to me.
WIFOM does nothing but confuse town, and with a claim like that, it also gives you something to fall back on should you be copped or something.
In other words, suspicious, and I see no reason for someone town-aligned to do something like that.

I'm still not sure you understand what nightless means. You can count this as your humiliation, because I couldn't do better if I tried.

[Lexicat]

Scum is totally foaming at the mouth to get this Miller Lynch.
 
So you're saying simply because I claimed Miller, that makes me a good lynch and scummy?
 
Also, I like how you say claiming miller "AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME" is suspicious.
 
Praytell, is there a time you support a miller claiming?
 
And how is a miller claiming IN THEIR FIRST POST, scummy as opposed to at some other time in the game?
 

[Omba]

WIFOM does nothing but confuse town, and with a claim like that, it also gives you something to fall back on should you be copped or something.

How could she fall back on it if it's just WIFOM?

[Shadoweh]

Scum is totally foaming at the mouth to get this Miller Lynch.

Don't be so hasty. You know just as well that some players think a Miller claim at any time is an excellent reason for a lynch. I'm not seeing any reason to assume you're town yet, mind going back and commenting on everything that isn't you claiming to be red and Dormio not liking it? The world doesn't revolve around you.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Also, I like how you say claiming miller "AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME" is suspicious.

It looks more suspicious as you could both disregard it as a joke claim later, or have it in case somebody cops you in the future.

Praytell, is there a time you support a miller claiming?

I'll find out if that time ever comes. Though I don't think that there is ever a good time for a miller to claim.

And how is a miller claiming IN THEIR FIRST POST, scummy as opposed to at some other time in the game?

It's scummy all the time.

So you're saying simply because I claimed Miller, that makes me a good lynch and scummy?

It looks scummy to me, yes.

How could she fall back on it if it's just WIFOM?

Later, if Lambda gets copped or something, she can simply point to the miller claim.

Also, I'm sharing with the class you need plastic bedcovers, like I did in MotKTown.

[Lexicat]

Here are the facts BTW:
 
1) On D1, scum will do just about ANYTHING to avoid lynching eachother or getting lynched. They want to start the game off with a mislynch, and THEN maybe setup some distancing.
2) Scum will look for the easiest lynch they can find, and jump on it. Examples of an easy lynch are anything from a known bad player who a lot of people would vote based on policy, all the way to a miller claim.
3) Miller claims are impossible to prove. You can't prove it until you are dead. This is what makes them great lynch targets for scum.
4) A reasonable townie will state that a miller claim is null at best. A scum will use the miller claim as their sole reasoning in pushing a lynch.
 
Now, please examine Dormio's "case" on me:
 
1) He's pushing dat early mislynch on an easy target (I.E: Claimed Miller).
2) His whole case of why I am suspicious is: "You claimed Miller." He has no other supporting reasons or logic behind it. It's all based on a sample of reasons that only apply SHOULD I be scum. They aren't reasons why I AM scum, but rather reasons why scum MIGHT claim miller. So, in effect, he is calling me scum because I MIGHT be scum trying to use this tactic.
 
Guess what folks? That "MIGHT"? It's called WIFOM. I also MIGHT be town claiming Miller. There's no way to PROVE it.
 
So, in essense, while Dormio is chiding me for "confusing the town with WIFOM"... he himself is attempting to use an argument solely based on WIFOM to lynch me.

Interesting isn't it?
 
3) He literally says that he "sees no reason for town to claim miller". This line is total BS on his part. There are OBVIOUS reasons why town claims Miller. This is his attempt at trying to push this lynch through without having to do too much work. It's an outright lie.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I'm calling you scum because I think you ARE scum using said tactic.
No "might" about it.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Also, care to state what those reasons for town to claim miller are?
Especially if said town was under no pressure whatsoever?

Isn't is sad, Dormio? Now everyone will know about your secret bloomers collection, and that you wear them when you're alone~

[Shadoweh]

I don't think claimed millers actually get jumped on here. I haven't seen it happen anyways. I don't think anyone on this board ever claimed it in their first post either. Stop jumping on Dormio for reacting to something he's never seen before. It's ALMOST like you're using game theory and what scum MUST be thinking to make a player that can be an easy mislynch look like obvscum. CLAIMING MILLER DOES NOT MAKE YOU OBVTOWN KTHX.

ps Lambda rest of game maybe even rest of players you should look at it and them kthx. What do you think about the 24 hour days? I'm surprised you haven't commented on it yet.

[PX]

ActionDan, you amuse me. Advocating, supporting, and leading a quick no lynch, Essentially saying to give scum a free kill. I think it warrants this.

##Vote: ActionDan

Saying you find Shadoweh the scummiest, you still vote for No Lynch.

Excuse me?  You going, "I'm setup speculating, claiming I'm not, then speculating some more," is worse than if you were just speculating.  Your whole post reads like a contradiction to me, since you are grilling someone for the same you are doing and responding in a roundabout way that would allow you be able to slip out of later.
##Unvote:
##Vote: Omba

I don't know where you got this line of thinking from.

As for the talk of the days, it seems like it might involve some roles, but this is all speculation and we shouldn't worry about it until something actually happens. However, the days are not voting deadlines so do not thing of them as that.

[WHMZakeri]

Sorry, I just wanted the chance to make an RVS vote. since you all started after I went to bed.
##Unvote: Zakeri

We have the option to lynch people not directly in the game, and I was wondering if anybody was actually going to consider that seriously as I did (this line of argument made sense at the time).  As a serious option to secure a "lynch" without voting for a player at the end of the day, I was also looking out for reactions to the idea. 

Just to be clear, where you suggesting we lynch someone outside of the game, or were you looking for people who also wanted to lynch outside the game besides yourself?

...Question answered in post 62. If the nightcycle works as I'm certain it would for a nightless game, No lynching/lynching a non-player would result in killing roles getting their shots in while Town wastes it's time. Your willingness to test this out seems an awful lot like someone who wants to use the town's lack of knowledge to shoot themselves in the foot.
##Vote: ActionDan

Defending in the early game is a nulltell. Scum don't need to worry about who they're linking with early day one, as long as it's not a strong link, and no one case is going to be better than another. Another answering another person's questions just means they feel like making another post. I don't like how he's basing a scumtell on Kitten off of how "Chill" or "Hot-blooded" she is though, It's too vague, and hard to trace back to him since it's ultimately a gut tell.

As for how I think the game works, I believe that day cycles and lynch cycles have nothing to do with each other. It's been made clear that voting doesn't reset when the day changes, and days seemed to be based off of 24 hours, like in the real world. We could try to keep it to 72 hours for those paranoid about the NK occuring before a lynch, but I doubt we actually have a solid time limit other than the "Must post at least once every 24 hours" clause.

LLD Did us a favor but not allowing the Cop to waste an investigation on her. Now the only question is if there's a vig who can save us the trouble of wasting a lynch on her as well. I don't take well to people who claim to turn up scum in an investigation.

[capt. h]

I actually somewhat agree with Dormio on LLD's claim. LLD, you are using Wifom to an extent where I start asking "Why would town do this?" rather than "Would scum really do this?"

That said, Omba's posts are extremely fluffy. She doesn't give any opinion either way about Shadoweh, K4U, or LLD and her miller claim, and her reasons for voting Action Dan are vague. For someone that's fairly active, she sure doesn't have any strong opinions.

##Vote Omba

[Lexicat]

I'm calling you scum because I think you ARE scum using said tactic.
No "might" about it.

 
If you can be 100% certain I am using the tactic, prove it.
 
Otherwise, you lose this argument because you cannot show what you are stating as "true" to be any more likely than what I am stating to be 'true".
 
Both are equally plausible, and now you are trying to push one over the other.
 
And you still accuse ME of being the one to use WIFOM?

[Lexicat]

I actually somewhat agree with Dormio on LLD's claim. LLD, you are using Wifom to an extent where I start asking "Why would town do this?" rather than "Would scum really do this?"

That said, Omba's posts are extremely fluffy. She doesn't give any opinion either way about Shadoweh, K4U, or LLD and her miller claim, and her reasons for voting Action Dan are vague. For someone that's fairly active, she sure doesn't have any strong opinions.

##Vote Omba

Show me where I use WIFOM?
 
All I did was claim Miller. It was Dormio who started jumping on a possible outcome and treating it as the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
 
Please for the love of god don't make me use Red in this Game.

[Lexicat]

I don't think claimed millers actually get jumped on here. I haven't seen it happen anyways. I don't think anyone on this board ever claimed it in their first post either. Stop jumping on Dormio for reacting to something he's never seen before. It's ALMOST like you're using game theory and what scum MUST be thinking to make a player that can be an easy mislynch look like obvscum. CLAIMING MILLER DOES NOT MAKE YOU OBVTOWN KTHX.

ps Lambda rest of game maybe even rest of players you should look at it and them kthx. What do you think about the 24 hour days? I'm surprised you haven't commented on it yet.

This is an interesting post.
 
First off, I feel misrepresented. Show me exactly where I have claimed that my miller claim makes me obv town?
 
All I have said is that it doesn't make me obv scum. (Which is what Dormio is trying to imply).
 
Secondly, I missed that 24 hour suggestion. Probably because it's so incredibly dense.
 

[Lexicat]

Sorry, I just wanted the chance to make an RVS vote. since you all started after I went to bed.
##Unvote: Zakeri

Just to be clear, where you suggesting we lynch someone outside of the game, or were you looking for people who also wanted to lynch outside the game besides yourself?

...Question answered in post 62. If the nightcycle works as I'm certain it would for a nightless game, No lynching/lynching a non-player would result in killing roles getting their shots in while Town wastes it's time. Your willingness to test this out seems an awful lot like someone who wants to use the town's lack of knowledge to shoot themselves in the foot.
##Vote: ActionDan

Defending in the early game is a nulltell. Scum don't need to worry about who they're linking with early day one, as long as it's not a strong link, and no one case is going to be better than another. Another answering another person's questions just means they feel like making another post. I don't like how he's basing a scumtell on Kitten off of how "Chill" or "Hot-blooded" she is though, It's too vague, and hard to trace back to him since it's ultimately a gut tell.

As for how I think the game works, I believe that day cycles and lynch cycles have nothing to do with each other. It's been made clear that voting doesn't reset when the day changes, and days seemed to be based off of 24 hours, like in the real world. We could try to keep it to 72 hours for those paranoid about the NK occuring before a lynch, but I doubt we actually have a solid time limit other than the "Must post at least once every 24 hours" clause.

LLD Did us a favor but not allowing the Cop to waste an investigation on her. Now the only question is if there's a vig who can save us the trouble of wasting a lynch on her as well. I don't take well to people who claim to turn up scum in an investigation.

While I understand the sentiment of wanting to vig a claimed miller (it's pretty common practice), most town players will treat the Miller claim as secondary, and attempt to read the claimed miller like they would any other townie first.
 
So if you can justify some kind of scum intent read on me, I'm perfectly happy to take a bullet.
 
But I'm not going to condone a shot being taken at a miller, solely because they are a miller. That makes you no better that Durrmeow over here.

[Lexicat]

Anything else I need to cover about this miller discussion?
 
Now, about ActionDan.
 
See: Easy Mislynch Targets, Pt. 2.
 
Attacking him for a no lynch suggestion when he probably didn't read the rules or understand the mechanics is a more than a little suspicious.
 
It's enough for me to go "hmm" at the people attacking him.