A Balanced Game of Mafia (Over; town wins)

[Shadoweh]

EBWOM: I really hope all those links work for once. :oh dear: If they don't I'm sorreeee

[Shadoweh]

* you've cast doubt on today

[Kiro]

Kiro: At that point I was seeing "only a fraction of the people wants to lynch Dan" as opposed to "pretty much everybody wants to lynch Dormio", and thus had doubts about getting a majority on Dan. Maybe I should've said "a willing majority".

Hrm, on the one hand, I could see the clamor at deadline possibly having that kind of an effect. On the other hand, the fact that you weren't willing to stick to your guns on Dan with the votes even and enough people available to switch to Dan, but not the other way around raises the possibility that your switch was a bus. And Dormio's days were numbered. So, the harder the bus, the better. Still, I'd need more before I could press you as my top choice today.

Hourai: Your linked post to Bard was before Dormio's 2nd post, which was the one that really did him in. At that time, I hadn't really thought about Dormio either. You gave Dormio a pass much more than Bard did (or had the opportunity to do since he wasn't around for Dormio's eventual meltdown). With this post, definitely would prefer seeing you lynched before Bard.

Shadoweh: Huh What can still be a suspect the same way Polaris is. And he admits he would have gone Dan over Dormio. That alone puts him at mid level threat to me. Deadline hammer is a duty as a player of the game; it doesn't change how I think about a player. And frankly, he may not have realized that there weren't that many people around for deadline when he posted and was reeled into it. And I'm reading UK's #325 as a change of opinion from her earlier #314 and #315. Other than that, if there's 1 player I know capable of doing the Superbus in this game, it would be UK. Since I didn't mention it, the only people I'm willing to 99% clear are Shadoweh (for being Dormio's first target and his vote adding to a prominent wagon), and Dan (for being the counterwagon). Everyone else is fair game, but UK is definitely low level to me. I'd save bussing candidates for Day 3. Right now, Town focusing on just one of Hourai, Sect, or Bard gives us our best chances in Day 2.

[Hanged Hourai]

Kiro-

My point still stands that all Bard had to say about Dormio was arguably trying to help him make his point better. That was his only interaction with him all game. He said nothing about Dormio after Dormio's second post, if you are correct. I fail to see how I gave him more of a pass than Bard. And Bard maybe not being around for Dormio's meltdown does not give him a pass at all.

[Kiro]

Kiro-

My point still stands that all Bard had to say about Dormio was arguably trying to help him make his point better. That was his only interaction with him all game. He said nothing about Dormio after Dormio's second post, if you are correct. I fail to see how I gave him more of a pass than Bard. And Bard maybe not being around for Dormio's meltdown does not give him a pass at all.

Well, you both look bad. So my train of thought between the two of you goes from "who's actions are scummier" to "who's actions are more likely to be Townie." And Bard has you beat, by a tiny bit. Only because he wasn't here.

*insert customary phrase where UK wishes she has a vig*

[Shadoweh]

Kiro: That's possible, but I disagree. If I were to directly compare Polaris's actions at deadline to huh what, Polaris switching didn't technically make it possible to lynch Dormio. His wording also made it possible for him to change his mind and go back to Dan at any moment. huh what appearing made the lynch happen. I find it more likely that as scum he would have checked the votecount, read that people were still flip flopping, and just not posted at all.

I think the Easter Weekend is responsible for the low activity. I'm not done looking at other people by any means. Bard still needs to get his sexy self in here and explain himself. Hourai apparently isn't going to be posting more content until tomorrow (or he could cut me >:C). Sect might post again next never. I'd rather question someone whose around then my posts consisting of "Loading, Please Hold".

If UK had a vig she would have already used it in the confirm phase. 

[Bardiche]

Still here, catching up and posting. Sorry for the delay. :V

[Bardiche]

I'd really like to vote Dan right now, because his content is still terribad, his points don't hold water and he blatantly ignores any counters to his terrible points. Sadly, I don't think we'd be so lucky to have two scum trains on D1, and for now I am content to assume he just clearly dips in the water of ignorance.

Unless you think Scum wanted to go into a scum/scum wagon D1, I'm confirmed town right after UK, the first person to Call out Dormio. 

This makes me facepalm of course. :derp: That's not how confirmed town works.

Anyway, opinions in super condensed form. Kiro is scum to me. He finally lets up on his Shadoweh suspicions there but still doesn't move his vote off of her. When he finally does move it off her, there is no admission that she is no longer scummy or anything, simply that there are "enough shady people on Shadoweh"; giving Shadoweh a pass based on other people's interactions, Kiro?

But I felt it was worth making a comment on because we gotta get our wild cards, Hourai and Polaris more involved.

In response to "Why mention Dan's case without giving an opinion?", which honestly feels off: if you think there was little of value to mention there, why raise attention to it? His vote on Dormio seems to be for information moreso than Dormio is scum, as he never actually states he thinks Dormio is scum. Trying to misrepresent my vote as OMGUS is silly, it's plainly obvious I was voting him for never responding to anything that was said no matter how (in)valid it was.

Finally saying he wants Dormio lynched happens only as the wagon gains spec and he can no longer jump off.

Not lending town cred for that. Other scum? Omba looks bad, particularly this which is vote parking and preps to jump to one of the other two targets as necessary. I am at the limit.

[Bardiche]

EBWOP:
##VOTE: Kiro :V :derp:

[Shadoweh]

Posting so Bardiche can add more if he wants. I'm not awake enough to judge if that's crazy or not, I'll think about it in the morning. My initial reaction can be summed up with a chenwhat.jpg.

[Bardiche]

Thanks for ruining it Shadoweh.  :wat:

On Omba, the trouble begins here when he votes Huh What for interpreting things in a different way. This is not a reasonable standpoint to take. Nor is the addition that "UK may be scummy", but voting Huh What for thinking it IS scummy.

The last line says HH is top of his "huh?" list, and that he is very interested in HH's response to ActionDan! Surprise, HH does that right before Ombra's next post, but Ombra doesn't even acknowledge it anymore. Inquiry to Dormio gives an out in that the parts underlined aren't scummy, but "huh?", which would be a reasonable excuse to hide behind I s'pose.

While Ombra does vote Dormio, he still tries to get Dan lynched instead, which doesn't earn him favours. Yes, he does switch back rather swiftly, but I don't think the move to Dan is town-intended.

There you go. Willing to swap to Ombra if people aren't keen on lynching Kiro, not willing to lynch UK.

[Bardiche]

Ombra ignoring HH's post is scummy because it means the entire song and dance about HH being top of his huh list turned out to be meaningless fluff and filler opinion without being of any consequence. Holding an opinion is nice, but you gotta produce that opinion more than just stating it.

[Omba]

Yay, someone finally found his balls.
Nice going Bard, but you should have started that D1. Doing it now pretty much guarantees your lynch on D3. Well, if you want to help town even though you're scum, that's fine by me. :V
Next time, you should bring up more points that weren't already brought up by someone else / can't be answered by simply looking at the time the respective posts were made, though.
And no, I'm not going to say why you're suddenly scum to me even though I had nothing on you before. Not before D3, that is. Look forward to it. <3

Going to /re-read walls of text later. More stuff in I guess 6-8 hours; I'd rather lynch someone today that isn't Bard, after all.

[ActionDan]

Bard why don't you ask those "counters" again to my terrible points.  Please spell it all out for me.

O yeah, can you mention Sect too, you kind of ignored him.

[Omba]

Correction: I'll explain the thing about Bard shortly before we end D2, assuming he doesn't fuck up more and get lynched today already.

[Bardiche]

Nice going Bard, but you should have started that D1. Doing it now pretty much guarantees your lynch on D3. Well, if you want to help town even though you're scum, that's fine by me. :V

I wasn't aware we were in a role madness game. :V Elucidate how a lynch on either Kiro or you would make me definite scum?

Next time, you should bring up more points that weren't already brought up by someone else / can't be answered by simply looking at the time the respective posts were made, though.

What part can be answered by looking at the time the respective votes were made?

And no, I'm not going to say why you're suddenly scum to me even though I had nothing on you before. Not before D3, that is. Look forward to it. <3

You don't suffer scum to live, so outline why I'm scum then. Right now it simply reads as OMGUS.

Bard why don't you ask those "counters" again to my terrible points.  Please spell it all out for me.

O yeah, can you mention Sect too, you kind of ignored him.

Look back on posts, and if I haven't mentioned it it's because it's not interesting to me.  :derp: I'm not doing your Mafier game for you, so look it up yourself.

[ActionDan]

Bard, just read your case on Kiro... and I don't like one bit of it.  lets start with this:

Anyway, opinions in super condensed form. Kiro is scum to me. He finally lets up on his Shadoweh suspicions there but still doesn't move his vote off of her. When he finally does move it off her, there is no admission that she is no longer scummy or anything, simply that there are "enough shady people on Shadoweh"; giving Shadoweh a pass based on other people's interactions, Kiro?

Kiro pretty much answers your question in a later post, when he references my reasoning for giving shadow a pass. It's even in one of the posts you hyperlinked.  This is not an arguement I'd use against Kiro, because as it turns out, Kiro was right. Next:

In response to "Why mention Dan's case without giving an opinion?", which honestly feels off: if you think there was little of value to mention there, why raise attention to it? His vote on Dormio seems to be for information moreso than Dormio is scum, as he never actually states he thinks Dormio is scum. Trying to misrepresent my vote as OMGUS is silly, it's plainly obvious I was voting him for never responding to anything that was said no matter how (in)valid it was.

Finally saying he wants Dormio lynched happens only as the wagon gains spec and he can no longer jump off.

Not lending town cred for that.

Bard, that was a prod for you to get talking, she didn't raise anyone's attention except yours: working as intended. You say Kiro's vote on Dormio didn't include a Scum accusation. Did your vote on me include one? yet at the end of day your vote was still on me, or was it "Obvious" (Btw I freaking hate that word by this point).  Kiro could have anytime before the Dormio vote or after, jumped on me

[Bardiche]

I wasn't aware Kiro is ActionDan now. :derp:

[ActionDan]

Look back on posts, and if I haven't mentioned it it's because it's not interesting to me.   I'm not doing your Mafier game for you, so look it up yourself.

You serious? You use these so called "counters" to DISMISS MY ENTIRE CASE ON YOU.  THEN, you use them to place a vote on me that lasts up to the end of the day. They are ALL you've got, and now they are not interesting?? No you look them up, I'm not the one trying to defend myself.

[ActionDan]

I wasn't aware Kiro is ActionDan now. :derp:

Yo Bard, If your so concerned about me giving an opinion on your case against Kiro, why were you so upset that Kiro didn't give enough of an opinion on my case against you?  :derp:

[ActionDan]

Btw in case anyone is wondering, I think both Sect and Bard are ObvScum at this point.  Bard hasn't even mentioned Sect. That's how obvious it is.

[Bardiche]

I mean that Sect isn't interesting to me. Well gee, he said he'd rather get ActionDan gone. Given you're obnoxious, I can relate to that sentiment, even if his wording is rather poor. I just doubt it's scum-motivated and it is too easy a train to hop on.

The misrepresentations rain on. Sigh.

Bard, that was a prod for you to get talking, she didn't raise anyone's attention except yours

Bard: I didn't want to answer for you before you posted which is why I danced around my opinion. But I felt it was worth making a comment on because we gotta get our wild cards, Hourai and Polaris more involved.

But I felt it was worth making a comment on because we gotta get our wild cards, Hourai and Polaris more involved.

It's because you're trying to answer for Kiro but you're doing it wrong. Besides, you don't defend people in a Mafia game unless you're scum or masons together. And we don't have masons.

[Omba]

I wasn't aware we were in a role madness game. :V Elucidate how a lynch on either Kiro or you would make me definite scum?

Me neither. :V
I said you'll have to wait for the explanation. Also, it might have been better to word that differently.

What part can be answered by looking at the time the respective votes were made?

The part where I don't say anything about HH in a post that focuses on the Shadoweh wagon at L-2 or the two posts when we were already down to two wagons that were not HH, and the part where I vote Dan a few minutes before deadline. Notice how the only player on the Dan wagon that had posted around that time and was not Dormio was Sect? For some reason, what he wrote did not make me think he'd vote Dan. So unless you assume I'm psychic and already knew Polaris and HW would come online or already assume I'm scum before you make that argument, that does not make the vote anti-town. There's this Rocks Fall and Everybody Dies thing.
Well, if you want to assume I deliberately timed my posts so I did not have to say anything about HH, then I'll give you that. That does indeed look scummy.

You don't suffer scum to live, so outline why I'm scum then. Right now it simply reads as OMGUS.

Oh, I do want you to live until D3, even though you're scum. For the simple reason that I want the harder part out of the way first, which is finding the third scum.
And I'm aware it does read as OMGUS. If I thought saying what I said would get you lynched today, I'd have kept my mouth shut until near the end of the day.

[Sect]

Well, that break made me feel better.

Dan 300: A post by UK after a single post does not make you town, especially when you used the rest of the game to rip that cred to shreds. And Polaris switched wagons because he didn't want the game to end: in fact, he said that you were his top pick yesterday. But yeah, he's been lurking all game, and Saturday morning was the most active he's been all this time.

Zakeri 301: No townie or scum would ever say it: someone who's frustrated with the game would. About as simple as that, really. Other than that, no excuses, and I don't regret saying it, even if Dormio did end up flipping scum.

UK 313: ... Did I write that?

... Shit, I did. :headdesk: I had meant to type "playing as town you look like scum". Dammit, count on me to fuck up my own points.

Polaris 324: Lurking, pretty much: I was going to say something more about "reiterating points people have already made" but really, at that point there were no more points to be made. As for being scumbuddies... not really. You were one of the earlier attackers on Action, even though you never really posted enough to pressure him, and your switch seems more like "gotta lynch someone" instead of "gotta prevent Dan's lynch". You being more active helps. I'm backing off of you for now.

Also, I don't have any problem with you wanting to push a policy lynch on me, but I didn't say I was going to be gone for the rest of the game, I said the rest of the day. As in 24 hours.

Shadoweh 329: ... Well, I guess that's one way of getting off her coattails...

And then Bardiche/Kiro stuff happens, and I have to get something out to let people know that I'm actually still playing, because both Polaris and Shadoweh have recieved the wrong impression, which in retrospect I can see.

[UncertainJakutten]

@Shadoweh: There are a couple problems with that. One, if he was seen *anywhere* by an MotKer at that time, he'd have to show up here to check in. I don't know if he frequents any IRC channels or if he was posting on here at the time, but it's not as clear cut as "we'd never need to know he was here". Secondly, I only see him as scum with Sect. If Sect ISN'T scum (as I'm beginning to suspect), HW isn't scum either.

Now, why would people's wishes to lynch Sect change my mind?

Because they don't want to lynch him for being scum.

It's reading a lot like he's a scapegoat. A shill. Hell, you yourself even *brought up* we "had the tempo" to take a mislynch. THAT IS NOT A TOWN THOUGHT PROCESS!

Interesting this all comes out, Shadoweh, after you burn through half your town cred. I may need to take a closer look at you. Also, problems with your post. While four other people were expressing suspicion of Dormio, I was the second person to vote him. So are you telling me that those four other people are just as "scummy" as I am for questioning Dormio before voting? Answer carefully, dear~

...
...
What a fucking trainwreck on page 12. I'll be rereading Bard then I guess. And Omba. Shadoweh, forgetting about you for now. I don't care enough anymore.

[Edible]

Votecount - ALL ABOOOOOOOOOARDHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Action Dan (1) - Sect
Hanged Hourai (2) - Kiro, Polaris
Sect (3) - huh what, Action Dan, UncertainKitten
huh what (1) - Omba
Bardiche (1) - Hanged Hourai
UncertainKitten (1) - Shadoweh
Kiro (1) - Bardiche

48-ish hours remain, give or take a couple hours.  11 alive takes 6 to lynch.

Since multiple players have asked for clarification on a few rules.

1) After a hammer but before I post a flip, it's considered twilight.  Twilight rules are, in this game, the same as night rules - you may post whatever you like as long as it isn't game analysis or provides information about the game.

2) Rocks Fall Everyone Dies is pretty straightforward.  If a majority lynch isn't reached by the end of the day, the cliffs towering above Arpeggington will collapse, killing everyone.  In short, the game will end and everyone will lose.  tl;dr: A majority lynch is a requirement.

[UncertainJakutten]

Actually, I worked it out.

Omba, if you are the cop, just fucking claim it now. You've made it manifestly obvious you have a guilty on Bardiche. Confirm this.
If you are not the cop, you might as well claim that too and post a case on Bard. You're giving off obvious cop tells.

Here's why I'm just asking this outright rather than pretending I can't tell. We had a scum lynch D1. We had a missed kill N1. If we lynch scum today, we'll essentially have traded the cop for two scum. THIS IS A GOOD TRADE

Even *one* scum lynch can be worth the cop in normal circumstances. I pretty much see no reason for Omba NOT to clear up the situation now.

And to add to this, IF OMBA IS NOT THE COP, BUT THE REAL COP HAS A SCUM RESULT. CLAIM IT NOW

If you have a town result, don't claim. In fact, I'd go as far as saying Omba should not claim cop if he is the cop but has a town result on someone, and is just pursuing Bard for other reasons.

@Shadoweh: Re; Edible Cut: And there goes any argument you could make for town HW. I forgot about that rule, but I remember it was being mentioned a LOT. It's entirely possible HW asked for clarification before realizing he HAD to hammer.

[ActionDan]

Ok, you got me.  I was reading fast and was in disbelief.  Still, the Sect misrep is small, since even if you did mention him, all you said was that he was uninteresting.  You didn't say why he was uninteresting until just now, unless your gonna tell me that was "obvious".

The Kiro misrep is more important, so I'm sorry about that.  I'm assuming Kiro wanted to hear Polaris/Hourai opinions on my case considering they were attacking me.  I'll let Kiro answer that one along with your case.  However, I'm not defending Kiro in the way you think.  I am strictly attacking you for attacking Kiro by saying your case is flawed.

I rage at you bard, for things like "I'd like to vote Dan for terribad points that I've countered, but sadly I must clear him." and things like "I wasn't aware Kiro was ActionDan now  :derp:"  They are dismissive. It's true I was dismissive of Hourai, but I have at least posted why.  All you like to say is "If you defend someone, you are masons or scumbuddies". 

Next post I'll show you "your counters" and answer them since you seemingly don't feel you have any reponsibility for them.

[ActionDan]

EBWOP: holy **** was I cut

[Sect]

Two things at UK: First, I looked back to see what you were talking about with me and HW being on the same wavelength, and pages 2 and 3 kind of startled me. I can tell you that that's actually coincidence, or at least it is on my part.

Second, I don't know if anything will come out of it, but that call for a cop claim's pretty damned good for establishing your town rep in my books: even if nothing comes out of it, it's advice that whoever's playing cop should really pay attention to.

Still evaluating the other things going on.