Author Topic: [SC - Melee] General Thread  (Read 49577 times)

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2011, 03:25:49 AM »
I find that most mirror match-ups are really boring.


PvP: 4gates, colossus wars mid/late game (assuming no cannon rushes)
- Unless you have excellent micro (or your opponent has terrible micro), a 3gate robo/expo can't adequately produce enough defense to hold off a 4gate.
- If either side can't do enough damage in the early game, the game will definitely shift to WAR OF THE WORLDS because colossus have the greatest range of all protoss ground.
- Getting immortals would be more effective in dispatching a protoss ball, but forcefields would totally negate them.

ZvZ: roaches, later tech to banelings and/or mutas
- Roaches (after ultras) are the tanking units of the zerg army. They can absorb so much damage (and then regenerate the lost health) very easily.
- Banelings are used against lings, which can kill roaches in a surround.
- Mutas are used because neither of these can shoot air. I've never seen a game get past mutas.

TvT: tanks everywhere, viking support
- Siege tanks will incinerate a bioball incredibly quickly. That is all.
- Vikings are used to spot for the tanks and give them that extra range, as well as to secure air superiority.

On another note: this cast brings up an interesting question. Why don't more protoss get shield upgrades? Not only do they improve damage absorption by all units, they also apply to all structures. Upgraded shields means that any unit can take more hits without the shields failing, which then regenerate over time. Armor upgrades only apply to the army and even then only after the shields have failed.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 03:33:39 AM by Yuyu-tirade »

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2011, 09:19:51 AM »
PvP was great in BW mostly because Shuttle/Reaver macro was a huge skill separator.  SC2 it's just boring because Colossi epitomize the 1a entire blob style.  Fancy Blink micro is great early game but as it drags on there's just too much going on you can't do it.  Forcefields were impressive for like the first month SC2 was out but FF casting is like mandatory for any competent Protoss player.

TvT has always and will always be the most boring drawn out slowest matchup ever.  Yawn tank lines creeping by an inch an hour.  ZvZ at least ends quickly.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2011, 12:51:24 PM »
I want more ghost builds.

No, seriously. SC2's getting boring.


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Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2011, 01:37:44 PM »
I do remember seeing a replay where getting mass ghosts in a TvT actually worked. I gotta find it.

E: Found it.

E2: I'm going to have to start spamming this in ladder matches.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 01:40:56 PM by Yuyu-tirade »

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2011, 04:00:59 PM »
Yep.

21 minutes playing with a Z and I still don't have Thors.

ooh i have tanks while he has massive amounts of ultralisks.

I'm fucking slow and uninterested to play SC2 now.

EDIT: Here goes my brother giving me unfriendly advice and undermining my existence in RTS even further. Woo.

EDIT v2: derp a whole control group of Marines died from roughly 6 banelings.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 04:30:55 PM by Yukarin »


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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #95 on: June 25, 2011, 05:16:59 PM »
bw PvP was really honest.  Both players have similiar army comp/food count, and all came down to positioning/reaver/storm. 

I've seen /dance lose pros matches ahaha. Needs more in base manner CCs. But yea, I practically cheese in TvT. Mass drop yea. fk this protracted tank/rine/viking battle.

^take a break from sc2 yea? sc2 seems to be more frustrating/idra inducing, less reward factor. or something.

Interview for HotS.> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232705  Browder seems butthurt that all his rts games get compared to BW. " According to Blizzard the Overseer and Immortal are a high priority for redesign." lol. My eyes have seen the biggest troll.

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2011, 08:34:41 PM »

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #97 on: June 29, 2011, 07:54:16 AM »
The problem with ZvZ in SC2 is the baneling.  It is literally a crapshoot regardless of your micro skill.  At least in BW there was a variety of builds and some sort of footsy involved with rushing to mutas vs getting ran over by speedlings.  Roach builds are even more boring because then it just comes down to defender's advantage, they're closer and reinforce faster.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #98 on: June 29, 2011, 05:12:44 PM »
The problem with ZvZ in SC2 is the baneling.  It is literally a crapshoot regardless of your micro skill.  At least in BW there was a variety of builds and some sort of footsy involved with rushing to mutas vs getting ran over by speedlings.  Roach builds are even more boring because then it just comes down to defender's advantage, they're closer and reinforce faster.
That's why you do unorthodox builds like building a Hatch in the other's main.  :v

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2011, 12:30:45 AM »
I proxy hatched someone, was the best.


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #100 on: July 04, 2011, 03:38:08 PM »
lawlz, friend just 12 drone rushed me in retribution for the scv/rine all in I did. This game...

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #101 on: July 04, 2011, 05:02:50 PM »
I had an game once, 4vs4, one friend disconnected and me got killed.
Then the other 2 friend left and I got control of 3 bases and 10k minerals/6k gas ^^
2 Motherships 10 currier, millions of stalker and dark templer

^^

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2011, 12:54:11 PM »
I'm fucking bored at this game

So fucking monotonous.

And my brother wonders why I don't play it anymore.


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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2011, 07:20:43 PM »
the funmaps are great, similar to WC3, but melee gets boring after months ^^
this map for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3otPvdgWQds ^^
many WC3 fun maps got their remake in SC2

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2011, 07:27:21 PM »
ahahha Day9s funday monday SC2BW day. ahahha.

http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-318-funday-monday-sc2bw-5345218


Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2011, 01:17:43 AM »
A useful tool for ZvZ


On another note, I've almost completely stopped 4gating, except for special cases when I know the opponent's trying to get up an early expo (and sometimes I 4gate robo or 5gate just to make sure I break their defenses).

My new standard build is a 2 or 3gate robo, depending on the enemy. Only chrono warpgate research once and focus on army production. I find that it helps me against early pushes but also gives me a unit advantage over a more eco-centered enemy. I still suck at dealing with cheese, though.
VS Terran: 2 gates, robo, 3rd gate
VS Passive Zerg: 1 gate, robo, add 2 gates
VS Aggressive Zerg: 3 gates, robo
VS Protoss: [either of the VS Zerg strategies depending on scouting, or 4 gate counter]


E: Fucking mass mutas. I have to hole up in my base until Blink is finished, and only then I get easily raped by a transition into roach/ling. It's almost impossible to counter. What am I supposed to do?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 03:58:45 PM by Adele-tirade »

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #106 on: July 06, 2011, 05:53:43 PM »
E: Fucking mass mutas. I have to hole up in my base until Blink is finished, and only then I get easily raped by a transition into roach/ling. It's almost impossible to counter. What am I supposed to do?

Well, Muta is always hard against... I play Terran most, so I cannot give you an advice. Have you ever tried to go stargate? Since Voidray are pretty strong and can give you army good damage power if you don't lose them during harassment (or keep them with your army in the first place)

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #107 on: July 06, 2011, 07:11:57 PM »
Well, Muta is always hard against... I play Terran most, so I cannot give you an advice. Have you ever tried to go stargate? Since Voidray are pretty strong and can give you army good damage power if you don't lose them during harassment (or keep them with your army in the first place)

Mutas rip through VRs so fast. The only counter to mutas that's not Blink is massing phoenixes, and even then they're not a solid counter without shittons of micro. Make too few and you can't take on the flock, but make too many and your ground army suffers.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #108 on: July 06, 2011, 09:13:58 PM »
I've seen very successful sg builds. Try watching a few games from like whitera. I don't remember exactly, but I think 1 gate core sg into pheonix. After 2-3 pheonix, get that first vr, and force the Z to get queens and hydras. Lift all the queens with your pheonix. Mutas will get destroyed/will be very late vs this build. After you force the Z to go hydras, get collosi and control the game from there. However, the KEY to the build is to Never never lose that first vr.

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #109 on: July 08, 2011, 05:17:34 PM »
Today is Friday. You know what that means.

On a more serious note, I was reading a thread on the Blizzard forums suggesting that chrono should be able to restore energy to spellcasters (HTs and sentries). The reasoning was this: sentries would be able to do more ffs and guardian shields, and temps would be able to get in more storms before having to turn themselves into archons in order to be useful; the drawback, especially during the early game, is that there would be less nexus energy available for probes or upgrades. During the late game, when the protoss is maxed and the upgrades are just about done, the built up energy is basically useless. MULEs always retain their usefulness (it's unlikely the entire map will be mined out), and queens can transfuse units and buildings as well as stockpile larvae.

Thoughts? I personally think this is a good idea that Blizzard should at least consider.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #110 on: July 08, 2011, 05:27:22 PM »
I'd rather Blizzard let me chrono my friend's reactor'd Rax so he can pump out more marines.  :3


The idea sounds good on paper, but it really depends on how much energy is restored.  Maybe around 25 or 50 energy per chrono would be fair.

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #111 on: July 09, 2011, 11:56:34 PM »
50 energy is about right.

For sentries:
1 FF = 50
1 Guardian Shield = 75
For Templar:
1 Feedback = 50
1 Psi Storm = 75

If a CB provided only 25, then it would take two of them to make either spellcaster (assuming both are at 0 energy to start) able to cast another spell. Keep in mind that the queen's most useful support ability (aside from spreading creep), Transfuse, as well as all of the Orbital Command's abilities (which retain their value even during the late game, especially MULEs and scans) all cost 50 energy.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2011, 07:14:13 PM »
what, they retain their value. chrono your wgs. the energy gain would be op, there is a reason why they removed the khaydarin amulet upgrade? for the ht so no insta warpin storm.

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2011, 10:20:12 PM »
Then why do infestors still get Pathogen Glands? It lets them cast Fungal immediately.

Most protoss players have their warpgates scattered across various areas, making it harder to chrono all of them. They don't even need to be binded to a hotkey since they already come with one (W) [though I usually do bind them anyways]. Also, in the late game, when a protoss has maxed out and has extra warpgates to remax faster during an engagement, it'd be impractical to warp in more units and chrono all the gates one by one while still controlling the army.

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2011, 12:40:03 AM »
You can't warpin infestors. Infestors still have to rally and walk to my bioball, k tnx.

Most P I've seen have most of their wgs all in 1 spot no? You can also chrono them without going back to your base, use your minimap.  And yes, people use chrono on wgs during engagements, as do Z for their larva injects.

And chronoing spellcasters seems like a fun idea, but ...even early game hard to balance, a mass sentry build, FF, and then LOLFF again? yea... And late game would turn into spell spam with P massing nexus just for energy, since there is so much surplus minerals.

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2011, 01:32:57 AM »
You can't warpin infestors. Infestors still have to rally and walk to my bioball, k tnx.

Keep in mind that a P can only produce X amount of units per X amount of warpgates. Although they have the ability to warp in anywhere as long as it's next to a pylon, there's at least a 30-second wait (not CB'd) until the gates are ready again.

On the other hand, zerg hatcheries/lairs/hives can produce multiple units at once, up to a maximum of 19 each. Terran structures can have reactors, which allows for double the rate of production for key units like marines and medivacs (though this doesn't apply for units that require tech labs like tanks, thors, banshees, etc).

Quote
Most P I've seen have most of their wgs all in 1 spot no? You can also chrono them without going back to your base, use your minimap.  And yes, people use chrono on wgs during engagements, as do Z for their larva injects.

Not exactly. Depending on the style of the player and the events of a particular game, gateways are often used defensively to wall off expos (especially vs zerg).

And how accurate do you think chrono-ing from the minimap is? Very hard, from past experience. I've tried using CBs on my nexuses from the minimap, and it's not an easy task. The reason zergs can inject before/during/after combat is because they bind all of their hatches/lairs/hives (and sometimes their respective queens too) to different hotkeys. Binding every warpgate to its own key would be a terrible idea. The only time I could see a protoss chrono-ing during a fight is when he or she is making a frantic defense off of 1 or 2 bases.

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And chronoing spellcasters seems like a fun idea, but ...even early game hard to balance, a mass sentry build, FF, and then LOLFF again?

Except sentries do shit for DPS. Mass sentries is only used (by the pros) for securing expos, for defense, or for teh lulz. Using chrono on sentries would damage to an early game economy and would be better off getting probes, upgrades, or some actual attacking units. HTs without support also get raped quickly since Storm requires that the enemy units be within a certain radius.

Quote
yea... And late game would turn into spell spam with P massing nexus just for energy, since there is so much surplus minerals.

Don't zerg get macro-hatches? Don't terrans get macro-CCs?

Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2011, 05:07:34 PM »
Well, blizz needs to find another mechanic for lategame nexus energy then.

The CC and Queens are supposed to be a macro mechanic.

You are right, mid-late game P doesn't really need nexus/chrono energy. So that's why this would be too powerful, P will have 200 energy at every nexus=free storm/ff. The macro CC and macro hatches are just that, for macro purposes. Something like transfuse on queens is completely different, and quite useless late. Oh and queens take supply.

Quote
On the other hand, zerg hatcheries/lairs/hives can produce multiple units at once, up to a maximum of 19 each. Terran structures can have reactors, which allows for double the rate of production for key units like marines and medivacs (though this doesn't apply for units that require tech labs like tanks, thors, banshees, etc).
I may sound like Idrarageqq here, but this is precisely why I feel T can't keep up with the other races in production. Marines are terrible late game. Really armies are judged by their gas value in sc2, not food value.
People complain T cheese, early game imba? Blame blizz for making T production so weak late game. T has to constantly army trade/harrass to keep up in both worker count and army "gas" value. While mules make up a lot for the economy differences, P and Z will win outright if T is super passive and isn't doing some sort of 2 base/turtle timing cheesy play. This terrible production is also why there is no more pure mech play, the build time is far too long. Also, cd on wg might be 30 s, but there is no rally or walk time. In practice, I believe P can remax their army the quickest. I mean... 12+ wg, you don't even need chrono... /rage

I wish blizz would take out these 1 trick pony macro mechanics. Being able to max easily off of 2 base 13 min in game...That never happened in BW.

Fetch()tirade

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2011, 06:59:04 PM »
Well, blizz needs to find another mechanic for lategame nexus energy then.

The CC and Queens are supposed to be a macro mechanic.

You are right, mid-late game P doesn't really need nexus/chrono energy. So that's why this would be too powerful, P will have 200 energy at every nexus=free storm/ff. The macro CC and macro hatches are just that, for macro purposes. Something like transfuse on queens is completely different, and quite useless late. Oh and queens take supply.
I may sound like Idrarageqq here, but this is precisely why I feel T can't keep up with the other races in production. Marines are terrible late game. Really armies are judged by their gas value in sc2, not food value.
People complain T cheese, early game imba? Blame blizz for making T production so weak late game. T has to constantly army trade/harrass to keep up in both worker count and army "gas" value. While mules make up a lot for ~*~~*~the economy~*~~*~ differences, P and Z will win outright if T is super passive and isn't doing some sort of 2 base/turtle timing cheesy play. This terrible production is also why there is no more pure mech play, the build time is far too long. Also, cd on wg might be 30 s, but there is no rally or walk time. In practice, I believe P can remax their army the quickest. I mean... 12+ wg, you don't even need chrono... /rage

I wish blizz would take out these 1 trick pony macro mechanics. Being able to max easily off of 2 base 13 min in game...That never happened in BW.

I agree with you that Terran production is quite lethargic in comparison to the other two races.

I understand that Terran is supposed to be a sort of middle ground between the macro-focused Zerg and the micro-intensive Protoss. They can construct buildings virtually everywhere on the map, and most of those buildings can move to more advantageous positions, i.e. acquiring tech labs/reactors or taking island expos, a convenience neither of the other two has (to be clear, protoss can also construct virtually anywhere but the buildings cannot move and they must have a power source, which is 100 minerals down the drain). However, they lose out in the fact that the production facilities can only pump out 1 or 2 units at a time (zerg can train multiple larvae) and that there is a significant wait time before the unit(s) is/are produced (protoss warp-ins only take a few seconds). This especially applies to heavy mech or air builds, in which factories or starports with tech labs have to churn out expensive units slowly. On the other hand, marines and marauders can be pumped out fairly quickly and are extremely potent against all unit types, especially with stim. [On an unrelated note, this is why I believe that the current Terran metagame focuses heavily on MMM and/or marine-tank builds.]

E: If nexus energy can't be used to make spellcasters more useful, can you suggest another way? I'm not challenging you, I'm just wondering to see if there are better ways to handle this. Seriously, during the late game, nexuses are only good for keeping the protoss's base from being revealed.

Oh, and if I could ask Blizzard one more thing, it would be: Please make Motherships more powerful. The fire rate is pitifully slow, and they are pretty fragile considering their cost and training time.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 07:07:43 PM by Tsuntsun-tirade »

helvetica

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Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2011, 02:38:21 AM »
It only takes 3 sentries to FF a ramp permanently.  Giving energy regen to chrono boost would make sentry cheese ridiculous (split army up ramp, wall off and kill natural uncontested).


Twitter: @hipsterfont | Discord: helvetica#0573 | LINE: hipsterfont

He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: [SC - Melee] General Thread
« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2011, 07:58:05 PM »
Well, to be fair, T doesn't really use mules or scans all that often late game. I think it's mostly fine the way it is, you still chrono that robo/sg all game long, and forge and high templar upgrades still take some time. Z is only one that constantly needs to be busy with queens. We will have to wait and see with the next expansions.

Blizz is implementing limited region linking, and if any of you still play sc2, we should all try to get together and play a few games. Im in NA region. Or at least some good old bw games... I usually hang out at #dots-meido.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242929
Funny to see that blizz finally developed this "magical" technology. See? Having everyone be able to play on a different regions is possible after all. Maybe after blizz milk all our money from us, will they let us cross region for free.

edit: oh I wish they would get rid of mothership. so slow, so useless. but, sc2 is all about the showy and flashy new units. They are going to redesign the overseer instead, cuz it's boring.

The one change I wish to see the most is changing the gateway/wg mechanic. Have the gateway be able to build all the units, but wg only tier 1/1.5 units. This would force the P to choose, a bit like T reactor/tech labs, and it would stop this retarded instawarp in tier 2+ units.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 08:07:36 PM by kactaplb »