[WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread II

[CloverNaght]

Hey, would a lot of you be opposed to the idea of taking Renko and Tokiko, some items(probably have to put in a new shop as a result), new innates, and possibly 5v5 from .977 and refitting them for .967?

I think a lot of us would rather play Defense of the Shrines rather League of Maidens.

why not? 5v5 and Tokiko+Renko mod for 0.967 is already enough for me

No, this version is best version (it's not like 967 is THAT balanced anyway)

my little Thanuris can't be this baka!

[swdn]

I assume, the idea was to make all  spells more useful in the late game phase. If main attributes scale as the game play goes, why spells should have fixed damage all time? I have not played LoL/HoN/whatever, but that's how I think.

- Magic resistance is now an integer statistic for each unit and will follow the same calculation as damage reduction from armour
(e.g. each point of armour/magic resistance will add 6% effective health vs physical/magic damage)

I'd agree with that, if I haven't found "DefenseArmor=0.05" string in the map archive. This means lesser damage reduction for 1 point of physical armor.
However, function of calculating magic resist involves 0.06 coefficient.

- Items that grant physical damage reduction against non-hero physical damage will now work at half-efficiency against physical damage from summoned units and buildings

This was introduced in 0.977a. I guess they forgot to tell that earlier.

- Grudge Bow's magic resistance reduction of 5% changed to magic resistance reduction of 5

There should be 1.5.

[Amraphenson]

The stupid thing is that it completely invalidates the carries, who were the only ones who scaled into late game before. If the casters, who were meant to either end the game early or support said carries until they got powerful, suddenly become as powerful late game, there's no point to having a carry.

Because the spellcasters are carries now, but with AoE.

[ApharmdB]

Thanks. Corrected the typo. Regarding armour, I haven't been poking around the map much recently, waiting for a stable version first before starting on any translation/optimization, but I wonder if the devs meant to change the armour coefficient to 5%. Could've sworn it used to be 6% as well.

The 967 to 977 change seems to be as divisive here as it is over at touhou.cc/HF game rooms. I think the scaling issue is being blown out of proportion though - after tweaking things around, the final damage of most spells should remain the same or near what they were in 967g, taking into account hero base stats+attribute bonus skill. The difference that it makes is that it'll take more time for skills to reach their full potential, and at the same time give some leeway for int heros to improve the potency of their nukes at the cost of survivability (notice that hp values are much lower in 977 generally). The max hero level reduction was also supposed to achieve this effect, making survivability items that much more important to everyone, especially in a 5v5 game. It does make it more irritating to play, because it's now harder to gauge when a spell will be able to finish off someone without doing some calculation, so it'll take time for people to adapt and gain the experience needed for gauging such things. As for the new items, they're just... well, I don't think they were needed and still don't think they add much to the game, but it's a choice whether one wants to go for them or not. Some don't even make sense (I'm looking you, Miko's Divine Sword.)

Regarding casters vs carries, the 977 game is quite different now, hence the proliferation of magres items. It's now a bit more of a Final Fantasy-like system of counters. If one team has chosen too many casters to carry their late-game, it's possible to stack magres to ridiculous levels and nullify their damage, even if they buy things like Hakkero and the Violin. On the other hand, it's still harder to nullify agi carries' physical damage output. Agi carries can still win the game, but they'll have a much harder time now in a 5v5 environment with crappier survivability. As I mentioned though, tweaks are still on-going, e.g. Alice's dolltrain could do >1k damage each time the train crashed into you with 12 dolls in 977b. :V The biggest thing that I'm not liking about this is how they're going about the balancing, and some of the other devs have said the same thing too in the QQ chatroom, so I don't know why upward balancing is still the default way.

Lack of playtesting results in funny bugs like this



(I've seen Tenshi with 8 of those things before.)

[CloverNaght]

I assume, the idea was to make all  spells more useful in the late game phase. If main attributes scale as the game play goes, why spells should have fixed damage all time? I have not played LoL/HoN/whatever, but that's how I think.

assume i'm one of devs
-dammit they whining about gayagis but me don wanna nerf mai waifu!!
-*giggles* oh wow LoL is faannn dude xD lets force this shit for our DotS...agis are imbashit winbutton so wai not buff non agis???Killing two birds with one stone rite XDD
-"saw many players raged about this metagame"
-YOUDONTLIEKMAIGAMESYOUMUSTBEATROLL
-ban any comparing DotS with LoL threads in touhou.cc
odear

[Pesco]

-dammit they whining about gayagis but me don wanna nerf mai waifu!!

I rage at this being the biggest failure of the devs.

[Captain Infinity]

Also let developing to the original devs, some day they will get it right, we just need to wait  :derp:

Agreed, except for the part that they will get it right someday :derp:

[Helepolis]

5v5 matches are going to be pure chaos and tremendous ganking is what I am guessing.

[trancehime]

Some don't even make sense (I'm looking you, Miko's Divine Sword.)

Did you know that Miko's Divine Sword (神之剑) gives more HP than Tacticus? :V

And the taunt effect on it sucks, I already tried using it because it looked like a funny item, and well... Uh, yeah, I can see what you mean. A lot of the new items that were added seem to just be there to add flavor to the game rather than having any actual worth in usage... I recall Cure Star being run on a Tokiko (I forgot who) but I'm not sure if I ever saw it used. Furthermore, some of the new recipes are a hassle to remember now (Yatagarasu = Little Bird + Lantern???) and there are way too many shops. :getdown:

[Dorakyura]

Go to the changelog page and search for "Yuuka"

[...]
new recipes are a hassle to remember now (Yatagarasu = Little Bird + Lantern???) and there are way too many shops. :getdown:

Super easy those new recipes :-)
Yata is 2 drinks + recipe + birdy + recipe. Giving a mana reg aura and mana on use, and extra mana for your mana pool. Hurray
Lets see, Red Llama: Broom + RED LLAMA
EASY!!!!

[trancehime]

It took me 5 minutes to figure out which shop to actually check the goddamn recipe for Lantern (which is indeed 2x Soft Drink).

[Helepolis]

Miko's sword is basically the old M-Ko effect on Karasa surprise box?

THERE ARE TOO MANY SHOPS IN DOTS NOW. THE *****.

[Dr Rawr]

New topic: unban everything except yamame,weather, brownbeta, magicalness, QQ, and backdoor. Yamame was rebanned for that insane lag she causes :V. Camera was nerfed and character wise, well lets say that everyone can be lunasa, and everyone can be rumia. Wriggle im sure is lol easy now, her base hp was lowered and she was already squishy before.

[CloverNaght]

there are way too many shops. :getdown:

Same retarded shit as THDB god that map mfw 11 items+ needed to make high end items??
still refuse to call 977 a DotS map

[Tapsa]

Complaining about too many shops and enormous item builds? You haven't seen anything yet, go play Moo Moo.

[Helepolis]

Once we finished processing the wiki pages, we can start with unbanned girls and items ye.

Like rawr said, we keep the other stuff banned.

[ApharmdB]

Typing -cloth01 in the character selection screen lets you select the alternate model for the girl, e.g. Sakuya, Mystia, Sanae, etc while -cloth00 selects the normal one. This works in the 0.977 maps, but I'm not sure if it works in 0.967g...

[swdn]

Item - 6 ball

Recipe: (1050)
Witch's Broom - 500
Total - 1550

Stats:
+50 movement speed

Movement speed does not stack with Llamas, 9 ball, Gap Generator.

Effect: Nuclear Fission (passive)
When dealing magic damage, ignores 4 target's magic resistance.
Item - Gensokyo Diary

Recipe: (1100)
Bloomers - 450
Sailor Uniform - 450
Historian's Book - 1000
Banana - 1000
Total - 4000

Stats:
+12 all stats
+6 armor
+6 magic resistance
+9% movement speed

Movement speed bonus does not stack with Banana, Brother Sharp, Anchor.

Effect: Gensokyo Origins (passive)
Reduces resurrection time by 25%. After death adds +8 to all stats for 240 seconds.

However, according to map script, Gensokyo Diary does not give magic resist bonus, and stats bonus after death lasts 180 seconds. Also, while checking magic resist function, I accidentally found bug with Merlin F skill, which increases target's magic resistance (but should reduce it as well as armor).

[Conqueror]

So I hear Lyrica can permanently reduce cooldowns with each kill.

 :trollface:

[Helepolis]

Yuyuko's Sakura Sign 'Perfect Cherry Blossom of Sumizome' damage changed from 60/90/120/150 to 60/90/120/151

Here we go again.

[Dr Rawr]

its actually started when they increased her aura damage by 1 :V

[Dular]

Here we go again.

The movement speed was funny to a degree.  This is just unnecessary :|

Words!

While yes, I think some of us(myself included) are blowing this out of proportion, the thing is that this dots group was formed to play.. Well, Touhou dota, not League of Legends Touhou.

For a videogame example, imagine you are playing Chrono Trigger, possibly Earthbound but suddenly halfway through it turns into a Final Fantasy game.  I think most people would have the right to be upset.

[ApharmdB]

Actually, since I've never played LoL before (only seen videos of it), the comparisons between THDotA and THLoL don't mean so much to me. For the record, I'm no big fan of DotA either, but that's not because of the gameplay which I'll admit is very very well done. The characters are still more or less the same (don't know what Renko and Tokiko are doing in there though), the gameplay still involves the same elements of ganking, laning, last-hitting, denying, pushing, etc, except that it's less prone to devolving into 1v4s ala 967g's Flandre/Tengus, and the map's still mostly the same (minus some towers and a large doll). Unless one exclusively played Kaguya in 0.967g, it's hard for me to see how the game is completely different now.

Objectively speaking, after playing a couple of 0.977 games and 0.967, I think 0.977 does make some progress in balancing the gameplay. It may have made a few strides backwards in some areas but also several forwards and with some (a lot) more number tweaks and bugfixes, it should be much better soon.

My version of the videogame analogy would be playing Red Alert and then suddenly having Red Alert 2 units show up as reinforcements. There's more to the game than damage calculation formulae and most of the old items are still there after all. Being apprehensive about such a massive change is understandable after all and being upset about the lack of playtesting is perfectly fine, and yes there's nothing stopping any group from staying at 0.967g. But claiming that 0.977 has jumped the shark is premature and I think a little silly, given that it's starting to look better now. Generally, the players over in the HF rooms are moving towards 0.977 now. There're only a few 0.967 games around these days compared to when 0.977's first release, but that's expected when there's such a large change. Sure, the next tournament there will still be held on 0.967g, but that's because it's unlikely that 0.977 will stabilize and that players will have fully adapted to the changes before the tournament. (They're also considering postponing the tourney and having it on 0.977 instead.)

[Helepolis]

Objectively speaking, putting all my rage aside, there isn't any problems with CHANGE-WE-CAN.

But if you look at the primary inspiration of DotS, it is (no matter how you look at it), a touhou-fied DotA. Logically, people expect it to be DotA alike and not follow the tracks of LoL. Now I don't know how DotA2 exactly evolved. Whether DotA2 has scaling skills or not, who knows (anybody?).

0.977 isn't really hopeless, but it isn't really look any good either. They are still releasing half-assed stuff. I thought the month december was going to be release month? What made them release suddenly these versions prematurely? I think the biggest concern is their lack of play-testing. If they would play test more and stop releasing these versions like Christmas candies, it would become more acceptable and less anti-movement.


Aside my manly tears and raging on IRC, I remain serious about this game and development around it. I have already started editing the items on wiki. Once that stuff is done, I will remove ALL bans (except few exceptional) on Rinnosuke. We'll simply have to restart our view and start accepting that this is the future of DotS.

It may sound dumb, but we have to DWI simply. Real men and women do this.

[Pesco]

THERE ARE NO REAL MEN OR WOMEN ON THE INTERWEBS!!!

:V

:effort: to relearn the game really

[Helepolis]

There isn't much to relearn, except for the location of the items and new recipes. Though most things remain the same, such as IAE , Control rod etc. It is just that items such as HJ's BUG now became pure HP/MP items and are built different.

If you wikiedit like me, you learn faster :V

[Dorakyura]

But if you look at the primary inspiration of DotS, it is (no matter how you look at it), a touhou-fied DotA. Logically, people expect it to be DotA alike and not follow the tracks of LoL. Now I don't know how DotA2 exactly evolved. Whether DotA2 has scaling skills or not, who knows (anybody?).

Wasn't DotA2 a close to 1:1 copy of Dota with some tweaking? As far as I know, Tanks are tanky, Nukers are nukey. And Carrys are carriey because their stats and their skills and stats are supposed to scale with items. Not like lol dots where some carry don't scale as much as a stupid nuker anymore.
(you can take a look into the dota2 wiki :-) http://dota2wiki.com/wiki/Lina)

I personally hate too much scaling

[Thanuris]

DotA2 is the same as DotA but with upgraded graphics/shop systems/interface (it's more like a remake of DotA than a sequel, and i'm guessing that there will be new heroes on it eventually)

by the way: best version

[Dr Rawr]

Honestly, after playing a couple of games in 977 game play isnt to different. Just needed to get use to how game turning some things can be.

[Helepolis]

I haven't played any games yet in 0.977 so cannot judge yey, maybe tonight.