Gensokyo Worker's Facepalm Mafia - Topic 2, Game Over, Man, Game Over

[?q]

You missed out UK.  That's four.  Furthermore, your post.

Except UK wasn't online at the time.  Also, four *other* people (as in, you and four others).  Fail, etc.

Logically, this gives some kind of pretext for a wrathie vote, doesn't it?  You never did say that you were explcitly against a wrathie vote then after all, though you highlighted him blue, you gave me enough reason to believe that you were fine with one.

Basically.
I don't think wrathie is scum, I don't think I have all game, and if memory serves I haven't voted or even pushed him.  However, I can entirely understand a policy lynch on him just from the sheer mania caused by his existence today (i.e. the fact that a majority of the players wanted to lynch him out the gate).

That was not my point, however you misrepresent it.  My point is that there is a lack of reasoning, rendering those points totally null and void and not worth considering or even stating on any grounds.  Helium is not content.

Oh, I wouldn't say that.  For one, the two examples you give are cherry-picked from the weaker points in the set.  For another, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's getting bad vibes from your posts.  And for a third bit, you seem pretty interested in speaking in absolutes today - these things CANNOT be considered, this means NOTHING, etc., which strikes me as odd.

Which is my point?  I don't see yours; ceteris peribus is when you consider that point only without considering anything else.

I didn't take Latin in high school.
Also, you're wrong.  Saying that pesco is not worth considering because Rou (who you yourself suggested was not anti-Town) did a similar scummy thing is a blatant fallacy.

I disagree.  Tell me how Rou is different in 'pointless setup speculation'; 'slightly plausible' doesn't cut it because it so stupidly ambiguous and rather throwaway.  The idea of gut feelings with less than good reasoning being automatically considered as scummy is present here, and the situations are actually similar.

Mmm... no.

Rou's case - Alice claimed Doc, got quasi-counterclaimed, got investigated Innocent by a Cop that somehow survived the Night even though he wasn't targeted - all of these things are actually present in the thread, and they seem to have fallen together rather conveniently to the point where it could appear to be staged.  In fact, your earlier push on Alice today was a CONTINUATION of this theory!

Pesco's case - Edible/I am tunneling on poor Alice/Pesco!  Clearly they have an ulterior motive - they have to secure an Alice/Pesco lynch and don't care about the rest of the Town!  HELP ME MOKOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!
Notice the abject lack of supporting evidence while attempting to discredit (in my case) Pesco's attacker.

Don't understand why you're asking these questions.  You said it yourself; pesco was useless except for the case of wrathie, and the lynchee-lyncher argument, which I find inadequate and shouldn't even be considered.  People were pushing donut because he was whining and useless as well, not to mention pushing a case on Roukanken, which actually adds to his case more so than pesco's; similar reasons with one side clearly stronger (in my view) than the other.

I never did understand why donut was scummy for pushing a case on Rou screaming No Wai That's Impossible.  So that takes care of the third question - they weren't exactly the same reasons, and in fact I would place Pesco higher in suspicion because I believe donut's response to Rou was rather understandable.
Plus you're ignoring that Pesco put out quite a bit more fluff than donut.

The first two points you have put are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand; all that matters is that there were people pushing pesco in day one for, and that there was donut and S.P present who were more deserving of a vote that he was.

No, you're dodging the question.  You said "people" were pushing "donut and others", and the last time I checked you were referring to Day 2 when you made that statement.

whut.  If Nietz wants to self-hammer, he wants to self-hammer, and I can do nothing to affect that decision.

This is the point where I can't take you seriously.
Of course you did something to affect that decision; you gave him the opportunity to do so.  In fact, you did the same thing for Pesco the day before.

-----

First of all, I want you to answer this question posed by Alice; e.g why did you peg wrathie as town?

For one, the same reason I've got him down as likely Town now - he's been too ridiculous, and I think the flailing is genuine.  In addition, if you look at the vote record, more often than not he's NOT following the crowd with his votes.  I would expect someone who's never been Mafia to at least add to the popular wagons, instead of creating a spectacle of himself off in a corner.

This post is of questionable merit as pointed out by Alice, ignoring 161 almost completely and overlooking people like Kanako or Sodium Peroxide or donut.  Scum-like clairvoyance is present; at the very least, a tinge of pesco-meta usage.  Almost like a predetermined bus,

Some clairvoyance.  I had Nietz as Town and donut as Not Sure Yet.  Otherwise, you're going to blame me for CORRECTLY reading S.Peroxide and Kanako (to the point of protesting the popular Kanako lynch)?

Lastly, very minimal questioning of pesco and no clear progression of thought processes on this page before declaration of him being obvscum; e.g jumping to the lyncher thingy on post 201 before going on with the Alice tangent; as if you were waiting for a mistake to happen before knowing what to jump on.  It's something worth pointing out, I guess; nothing really seems to add up in the span of post 157 to 201.

Are you getting paid to write this case?  Pesco's attempt to push Alice was obviously scummy, and I called him on it.  Adding this to my previous suspicion based on him Active Lurking, this equated to a preferred lynch.  Besides, at the time my concern with Pesco was that he wasn't producing anything; there were no follow-up questions to ask.

He also cites reasons like ' hey, only one serious post', without any evaluation of the content present in that post.  For these reasons, as well as very fluid opinions on UK (e.g UK being confirmed town by rather superficial reasons to "oh gosh I read Edible's and Zak's posts and she's scum), I think I have enough reasons for a vote.

Um... what?

After rereading UK, I think between Zakeri and Edible's posts there's decent enough of a case for me to...

##Unvote:  Affinity
##Vote: UncertainKitten (L-2)

...considering the deadline.

Key words bolded.  I didn't like the Zakeri case, and the UK case was better.  Notice the lack of conviction that you can see in, say, posts like this.

But hey, you can have your OMGUS.  You've spread vague suspicion around to everyone else today; 'may as well try this approach and hope it works.

I'd much rather see Alice or wrathie comment now.  I don't have to convince you of anything, after all... and you're certainly not convincing me.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

3 hours of sleep again...YAY!!!

And similar posts attacking Alice for rather poor reasons.  It feels very staged, and Alice doesn't do nearly as much responding to it as me and Rou (see Point 12).

Post #194 was the last post I made D1 before running off to take an exam, which explains why I didn't do as much fighting for my life as you and Rou did (i.e. I wasn't around).

Have I mentioned recently how much I don't like the idea of wrathie in the endgame?

Have I mentioned recently how much I don't like the idea of wrathie in the game either?

3) Alice hadn't mentioned pesco at all D2 up to that point... which is kind of strange considering me and Rou fought for Alice quite a bit at the end of D1.

Blah. I didn't pay D1 sufficiently much attention until *after* pesco made some posts on D2 that were rather...rageworthy, and then went back, reread and completely wondered what was going on.

@Affinity: the issue with 623, at least as far as I see it, is not recycling cases (which is perfectly valid given the main reason for lynching Nietz is the guilty result on him from the cop!), but rather that you voted him to L-1 after reading posts from both myself and Roukan which explicitly said that neither of us wanted to vote just yet to prevent another self-hammer--which, incidentally, is exactly what happened.

@umu: regarding 780, I thought I fullclaimed at the beginning of D6, as requested (would have been D5, but the UK modkill cut the day short). Regarding saying I did it D1/D2, the relevant posts are here (D1) and here (D2).

@Affinity: why did you not support a UK lynch at that time, out of curiosity? You know, rereading over your posts D4, you seem to have hardly mentioned UK at all then, despite there being, you know, a case on her.

But this reason wouldn't hold if someone else was scum because there would be a doc on their hands and things would be radically different.  In this case, yes, why would scum attack the doc instead of the cop, and suddenly go around to attack the cop when there was equal chance on day one and three of a cop protect?  The WIFOM games here favor you slightly for scum in my opinion.

See this post for my reasoning behind a self-protect, which also explains why scum would attack me as opposed to the cop N1 (i.e. they would assume I would protect the cop, and therefore off me to get a clear shot at the cop)

Furthermore, what makes you think that there would be an equal chance of a doc protect of the cop N1 and N3?

Finally, WIFOM guessing games are all kinds of bleh.

The first two points you have put are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand; all that matters is that there were people pushing pesco in day one for, and that there was donut and S.P present who were more deserving of a vote that he was.

Which is more scummy: someone being completely useless or someone being almost completely useless while using bad logic ad nauseam?

This is the point where I can't take you seriously.
Of course you did something to affect that decision; you gave him the opportunity to do so.  In fact, you did the same thing for Pesco the day before.

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyou know, this is interesting. In both cases on D2 and D3, scum self-hammered after being voted to L-1 by Affinity, in the latter case after no less than TWO posts which BOTH said something to the effect "I'd vote right now, but I don't want Nietz to self-hammer".

@umu: ceteris peribus = "all other things being equal..."

@Affinity: What's curious is you've gone into LYLO thinking wrathie is likely scum, then shifted to me by a continuation of reasoning you're slamming Roukan for, and now you're voting umu for...what exactly?

What's also interesting is that you dropped the line of reasoning on a possible scum-wrathie completely, as well.

Basically, at this moment, things are extremely hateful for me. I'm still thinking umu is Town, whereas Affinity has jumped about 20 levels on the scum-o-meter. wrathie still frightens me enough that I am nowhere near confident enough to vote Affinity up to L-1 for fear of a quickhammer, though.

Also, Affinity, you still have not responded to this post. Considering that the post I quote in that post is the first thing that's made me think that you might be not Town after all, I'd really like to hear a response to it.

[Affinity]

@Alice:

"And yes, I think the case against pesco had a few shortcomings to them.  Rou was engaging in horrid setup speculation and Alice was the victim; pesco was engaging in horrid setup speculation and u-mu was the victim.  Looking at these two ceteris peribus, there is no difference.  The reason why pesco was scummy was because he dropped it in the worst and scummiest way possible; and to be honest, even if he were to drop it, I wouldn't call him scummy for that, because he did, after all, provide an okay case on wrathie, something a myriad of other players such as Kanako, donut, and wrathie did not do.  His fault came in not continually pushing it in day two.  But before those events I saw not why people were pushing him instead of donut and others for the exact same reasons."

I think this applies to your question too; it was meant to be.

---

No, I disagree that my actions today were a continuation of the Rou theory, due to the fact that there is significantly more evidence against him.  Alice not protecting the cop as is to be suspected on day three and the scum happening to NK him on day three, is itself, weighing against him; just as a doc would get flak for not protecting people he was supposed to protect, those people being relatively obvious targets and potentially much more integral to town victory than any vanilla.  By this logic, yes, Alice deserved a second look just as Edible did yesterday.

Which is more scummy: someone being completely useless or someone being almost completely useless while using bad logic ad nauseam?

Someone being completely useless; e.g any case is better than none etc.

See this post for my reasoning behind a self-protect, which also explains why scum would attack me as opposed to the cop N1 (i.e. they would assume I would protect the cop, and therefore off me to get a clear shot at the cop)

This is... WIFOM in some regard.  50-50 for scum, I would say; and so would any decision regarding protecting the cop or deciding not to.  So... yeah.

---

Self-hammering I don't see.  I didn't expect them to self-hammer.  Normal procedure is to vote them to L-1 so as to evoke a claim.  Put those together and I simply voted them to L-1 regardless of what other people may say; I believe that this is the first game in which I have met with this weird notion of scum voting themselves so freely. 

UK, I felt that she was fairly townie in comparison to wrathie.  So I decided to withold judgment and wait till the next day regarding her.

Lastly, wrathie didn't post anything new.  Everything, still stands of course.

Have to go.  Will answer and pose questions to umu later.

[Kilgamayan]

Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Vote Count

wrathie (0): wrathie
Affinity (1): Youmu
Youmu (1): Affinity

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. You have 96 hours remaining.

Town is in LYLO.

wrathie will be prodded for inactivity after this post is made.

[Affinity]

Otherwise, you're going to blame me for CORRECTLY reading S.Peroxide and Kanako (to the point of protesting the popular Kanako lynch)?

Yes I am.  Because,

Adding this to my previous suspicion based on him Active Lurking

If this was your only reason for your sudden epiphany about him being scum before the Alice incident, then no, because Sodium Peroxide and Kanako (and perhaps debatedly donut) have been waffling and putting out as much or even less content than pesco, and yet you write them off as town or not sure yet.  The reasons for clearing and implicating people are as important as their flips, and yes, because of this, I am very willing to call you out on this since you have not answered the question as to why you didn't suspect them.

And no, I disagree with your method of analyzing posts.  Their uselessness is not directly proportional to the number of fluffy posts as you so believe but in fact, indirectly proportional to the number of contentful posts that they put out, in which the people I have cited on day one and pesco are at the very least equals.

I didn't like the Zakeri case, and the UK case was better.  Notice the lack of conviction that you can see in, say, posts like this.

Partially fair but still questionable on the account that if you were to peg UK as sure-town, then you would have some reasons for it, none of which you have raised in any sort of evaluative process in your vote for her. 

But hey, you can have your OMGUS.  You've spread vague suspicion around to everyone else today; 'may as well try this approach and hope it works.

How throwaway.  Vague isn't what I would classify my case under, unfortunately.

[?q]

No, I disagree that my actions today were a continuation of the Rou theory, due to the fact that there is significantly more evidence against him.

Um... by calling Alice out for scum you're implicitly saying that Rou was mostly correct D2 (the only part he would have gotten wrong was that K.Yasaka was partnered with Alice-scum).

Self-hammering I don't see.  I didn't expect them to self-hammer.  Normal procedure is to vote them to L-1 so as to evoke a claim.  Put those together and I simply voted them to L-1 regardless of what other people may say; I believe that this is the first game in which I have met with this weird notion of scum voting themselves so freely.

Odd, I don't remember you saying "claim please".  And it's not like you hadn't seen it happen already.  And it kind of IS good play for scum who aren't going to get out of being lynched to self-hammer.

If this was your only reason for your sudden epiphany about him being scum before the Alice incident, then no, because Sodium Peroxide and Kanako (and perhaps debatedly donut) have been waffling and putting out as much or even less content than pesco, and yet you write them off as town or not sure yet.  The reasons for clearing and implicating people are as important as their flips, and yes, because of this, I am very willing to call you out on this since you have not answered the question as to why you didn't suspect them.

So I'm reading D1 again, and I'm not sure how you can compare S.Peroxide with Pesco.  At all.
You could say K.Yasaka was low on the content, sure, but he wasn't flagrantly posting things that didn't matter rather constantly.

And no, I disagree with your method of analyzing posts.  Their uselessness is not directly proportional to the number of fluffy posts as you so believe but in fact, indirectly proportional to the number of contentful posts that they put out, in which the people I have cited on day one and pesco are at the very least equals.

If you are scum, say what you will to get through the game.
If you are Town, then I trust you will see that this belief is an error.  (This is also my opinion re: your response to Alice on a similar subject.)

Further, I would ask this - would you find someone who posts little to no content overall more suspicious if they only posted every now and again, or quite frequently?

Partially fair but still questionable on the account that if you were to peg UK as sure-town, then you would have some reasons for it, none of which you have raised in any sort of evaluative process in your vote for her.

What part of "deadline lynch" and "I didn't want to lynch Zakeri" did you miss?

This topic needs a lot more wrathie, and I think Alice is on the right track in not voting until wrathie shows up.
@mod:  What if wrathie doesn't show up?

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

what if i do??

brb, i rereading.. sch was hectic.

[?q]

what if i do??

We throw you out the window~
The window, the second story window~

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

We throw you out the window~
The window, the second story window~

I agree with this sentiment~

On a side note, umu:

Odd, I don't remember you saying "claim please".  And it's not like you hadn't seen it happen already.  And it kind of IS good play for scum who aren't going to get out of being lynched to self-hammer.

In his defence, he did do it for pesco. Which...really makes it all the more perplexing why he did not do it for Nietz. Really, we did have a free day, though, so I'm not seeing the lack of a roleclaim request as being bad, but rather the L-1 vote (after reading two posts to the effect of "not doing that now" AND knowing about the pesco quickhammer the day before) is the main issue there.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

that's just mean on me, seriously.


Anyways, that makes 3 of us, I dun want to be in EndDAy as much as u guys don't want me here, i can't contribute tt much, if any at all.

anyways, my thoughts on this day is:



but one thing stuck out, although it is silly but...

[quote from user=Alice]
Finally, WIFOM guessing games are all kinds of bleh.
[/quote]
this from someone who wanted to out WIFOM scum... Yep

and this:

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyou know, this is interesting. In both cases on D2 and D3, scum self-hammered after being voted to L-1 by Affinity, in the latter case after no less than TWO posts which BOTH said something to the effect "I'd vote right now, but I don't want Nietz to self-hammer".

You're right, but there are two reasons behind it:

1. Scum just wanted to get lynched quickly:

Odds: extremely slim.
I seriously doubt Nietz would want to selfvote when he did ask no one to quick lynch him before he get back but when he did get back he just quick lynched.
Smells fishy to me, did Affinity suddenly jump wagon to vote them to L-
1?

Same with pesco, though pesco till the end didn't quite serious till his self-vote. he looks like he was expecting it imo for him to RP with me =P


If they did, there could be a connection which leads to Theory 2.

2. They were using it to make some one look Townie or Scummy.

This theory is a little bit odd, they could be trying to frame poor Affinity but that would take awesome planning from the godmother but... who knows, it could be right.

question: who could benefit from their lynch?

I don't know on that so it's still a puzzle to me.


Affinity and umu are picking fights with one another and picking on some minor issues.

I'd would have thought that voting to L-1 or L-2 would be a hint for them to come up with strong defense or to claim, asap. That was reflected at the start of the game when Alice claimed early.
I agree with Affinity on this point, this game has way too many self-votes and subsequent death.

Yep.



Anyways, Affinity can be scum but i am still looking at Alice as Godmother, if his role is not clear enough =P


don't worry, I'm not going to quickhammer.
I'll be going overseas for a short trip and... well, i'll see how it goes ^^"

And I wouldn't mind being thrown out of the window, it it is not LYLO

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

bah, EBWOP
The quote that got messed up was:

Finally, WIFOM guessing games are all kinds of bleh.

Odd, I don't remember you saying "claim please".  And it's not like you hadn't seen it happen already.  And it kind of IS good play for scum who aren't going to get out of being lynched to self-hammer.

My point was highlighted in my earlier post and you have a point.
However i don't quite see why it is good play for scum who aren't going to get out of being lynched to self hammer..

if they can buy for time to formulate a strategy it would be nice to wait till the end.

Innocent till proven Guilty guys!


@Affinity and umu:

both of you are goin against one another for each other's reasoning of what is scummy and what is not.

This will go forever imo.. but it'll be nice if some1 can keep track on whether their stands remain the same throughout the game.. as i obviously can't

[?q]

However i don't quite see why it is good play for scum who aren't going to get out of being lynched to self hammer..

if they can buy for time to formulate a strategy it would be nice to wait till the end.

Innocent till proven Guilty guys!

Nietz had a Guilty on him, no good excuses to get out of it (this is the important part - no good strategy could get him out of it), and people were starting to talk about what they would do AFTER they lynched him.  You REALLY don't want the Town to coordinate to find the last scum on what amounts to free time (considering the next day we deadline lynched).  Especially when there was a Cop who could potentially be directed to find the last Mafioso...

Affinity and umu are picking fights with one another and picking on some minor issues.

...

both of you are goin against one another for each other's reasoning of what is scummy and what is not.

This will go forever imo..

No it won't.  It will go on until you read through it, find someone you agree with (or decide we're both Town!), and vote accordingly.  And tbqh I would like for you to vote before Alice does.

If they did, there could be a connection which leads to Theory 2.

2. They were using it to make some one look Townie or Scummy.

This theory is a little bit odd, they could be trying to frame poor Affinity but that would take awesome planning from the godmother but... who knows, it could be right.

question: who could benefit from their lynch?

I don't know on that so it's still a puzzle to me.

"Implausible" is the word I would use for this.

And I wouldn't mind being thrown out of the window, it it is not LYLO

...

[Kilgamayan]

And I wouldn't mind being thrown out of the window, it it is not LYLO

Town is in LYLO.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Innocent till proven Guilty guys!

I believe you missed the part where Serpentarius (ya know, the claimed cop) publicly announced he got a guilty result on Nietz.

and this:
You're right, but there are two reasons behind it:

1. Scum just wanted to get lynched quickly:

Odds: extremely slim.

Given that we were talking about what to do after we lynch Nietz, then yes, Nietz would want to get lynched quickly that day as, well, Nietz had no way of getting out of the lynch.

Same with pesco, though pesco till the end didn't quite serious till his self-vote. he looks like he was expecting it imo for him to RP with me =P

English technically is not my first language, but what does this even MEAN?

This theory is a little bit odd, they could be trying to frame poor Affinity but that would take awesome planning from the godmother but... who knows, it could be right.

So let me get this straight, they telepathically controlled Affinity to vote for them and then self-hammered in an attempt to get Affinity lynched? What?

Affinity and umu are picking fights with one another and picking on some minor issues.

Are you even reading the thread?

don't worry, I'm not going to quickhammer.
I'll be going overseas for a short trip and... well, i'll see how it goes ^^"

You do know we have activity requirements and a deadline, right?

And I wouldn't mind being thrown out of the window, it it is not LYLO

...

ARE YOU EVEN READING THE THREAD AT ALL?!?

[?q]

*rereads D3 focusing on wrathie's posts*
*ties a thirty-pound weight to wrathie and pushes him off a bridge again*

I'm suddenly tempted to vote wrathie.  His response to Serpentarius saying "oh hai Nietz is guilty" was to ask Serp to quote mod PMs (read: get modkilled) and generally dance around believing him and not believing him.

[Affinity]

@Alice:

this from someone who wanted to out WIFOM scum... Yep

This is the only thing in wrathie's series of posts that I remotely understand, but I think it's a good enough question for Alice to answer; I don't think this is merely a question of terminology either, but yes, why say that WIFOM guessing is all kinds of bleh when you tried to use that against scum?

Other than that, gah wrathie gah.

---

@umu:

It seems that I misinterpreted the bulk of your points, and for that I'm quite sorry.  But self-hammering to end the day as scum... is something I have never really thought about, as surprising as it might seem.  And I thought a claim was implicit in any L-1 vote (well, I think it is).  That's my only explanation for the incident and I'll let things be on that front.

Um... by calling Alice out for scum you're implicitly saying that Rou was mostly correct D2 (the only part he would have gotten wrong was that K.Yasaka was partnered with Alice-scum).

Again, the reasons are as equally as important as the result in any sort of evaluative discussion.  Yes, I am agreeing with Rou on day two, but I think he was correct for the wrong reasons.  I have... the added reason of Alice's failure to protect the cop that makes things significantly more plausible than on D2.

So I'm reading D1 again, and I'm not sure how you can compare S.Peroxide with Pesco.  At all.
You could say K.Yasaka was low on the content, sure, but he wasn't flagrantly posting things that didn't matter rather constantly.

S.P was voting people based on absence, e.g here, and not bothering to find things out about other people.  I would say that he lacks in the content department too.

Further, I would ask this - would you find someone who posts little to no content overall more suspicious if they only posted every now and again, or quite frequently?

Equally so.  Yes, I would find the latter case more irritating, but that's quite apart from the scumminess of that person.  I don't think one should consider the proportion of contentful posts to toal number of posts, but rather, the content that is actually there.

What part of "deadline lynch" and "I didn't want to lynch Zakeri" did you miss?

I think, specifically, it's the 'why isn't UK as cleared as Zakeri" part, despite previous opinions.  Still shows that those are fluid.

[Affinity]

EBWOP:

I would like wrathie to vote before making any serious decisions about mine.  Wrathie gives the impression of a cheerleader; rooting for both sides without understanding anything.  Which is bad.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

oops, i meant it to be if it was not lylo... My apologies on that, another round of errors that made me detest playing mafia and of course for you guys to hate me play mafia.

*rereads D3 focusing on wrathie's posts*
*ties a thirty-pound weight to wrathie and pushes him off a bridge again*

I'm suddenly tempted to vote wrathie.  His response to Serpentarius saying "oh hai Nietz is guilty" was to ask Serp to quote mod PMs (read: get modkilled) and generally dance around believing him and not believing him.

I was asking if it was possible, if it is not than it's fine in my book.
I don't dance around his claim of Nietz was guilty, at that point of time I would rather have Nietz say more if he is willing to for more clues on what is scum and etc.

but he self-hammered and blah blah...

i'm quitting mafia after this, it's affecting my confidence in this language.... and the analysis part of mafia is not helping me phrase my sentences at all.

Given that we were talking about what to do after we lynch Nietz, then yes, Nietz would want to get lynched quickly that day as, well, Nietz had no way of getting out of the lynch.

Point taken, thank you.

So let me get this straight, they telepathically controlled Affinity to vote for them and then self-hammered in an attempt to get Affinity lynched? What?

Nope. Affinity vote at the wrong time in both occasions and they just took advantage of it to paint him as scum.
This point was from your reasoning btw, finding a pattern in the way Affinity voted people to L-1 and a subsequent self-vote and death.

Are you even reading the thread?
You do know we have activity requirements and a deadline, right?
...

ARE YOU EVEN READING THE THREAD AT ALL?!?

It was my tying error... not being able to edit not helping this at all and as i don't reread my posts...

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

Nietz had a Guilty on him, no good excuses to get out of it (this is the important part - no good strategy could get him out of it), and people were starting to talk about what they would do AFTER they lynched him.  You REALLY don't want the Town to coordinate to find the last scum on what amounts to free time (considering the next day we deadline lynched).  Especially when there was a Cop who could potentially be directed to find the last Mafioso...

Yep, i notice Alice had the same exact point here and I agree with it.
What i remember was Nietz asking for people not to quick-hammer him till he came back with a defense... so yea, I was considering the possibility of buying for more time to discuss issues before the lynch.

...No it won't.  It will go on until you read through it, find someone you agree with (or decide we're both Town!), and vote accordingly.  And tbqh I would like for you to vote before Alice does.

I think both of you are town, if you want a vote I want an Alice lynch.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

@Alice:

This is the only thing in wrathie's series of posts that I remotely understand, but I think it's a good enough question for Alice to answer; I don't think this is merely a question of terminology either, but yes, why say that WIFOM guessing is all kinds of bleh when you tried to use that against scum?

There's a big difference between using WIFOM to try and see who to protect or not protect someone (which is not what I am protesting), and using WIFOM to justify a LYLO case (which is what I was protesting). Note that both my N1 protect *and* my N3 lack of protect were both justified in the end by playing WIFOM games with the scum, but for some reason nobody's complaining about the first.

Reading over wrathie's D3 conduct, two posts stand out:
Post #1 - Requests to quote a mod PM regarding Nietz's scumminess.
Post #2 - Selective scumhunting like whoa. Here you claim Nietz was trying to attack pesco at a time when pesco had dug himself a hole down to the Marianas Trench (which apparently makes Nietz less scummy somehow!), and it wasn't even linked to a post where Nietz was actually voting for pesco. This is followed up in the same post with claiming I gave Nietz a free pass, which would be notable if this wasn't the case for half the town at the time...we can be wrong, you know. Also, if you're trying to justify Town-Nietz, why would you be *attacking* me for giving Town-Nietz a free pass? It doesn't make any sense.

There's also the added part about the post-night comment which just slightly worries me when added onto everything else that wrathie did.

@wrathie:

I think both of you are town, if you want a vote I want an Alice lynch.

Why?

Nope. Affinity vote at the wrong time in both occasions and they just took advantage of it to paint him as scum.
This point was from your reasoning btw, finding a pattern in the way Affinity voted people to L-1 and a subsequent self-vote and death.

Why?
Moreover, given this nice pattern, why do you think it's scum trying to justify an Affinity mis-lynch today and not Affinity being scum?

I don't dance around his claim of Nietz was guilty, at that point of time I would rather have Nietz say more if he is willing to for more clues on what is scum and etc.

Really. How do you justify this post, then?

[Affinity]

@Mod:

What happens if no majority is reached by the end of the day?

---

@Alice:

Note that both my N1 protect *and* my N3 lack of protect were both justified in the end by playing WIFOM games with the scum, but for some reason nobody's complaining about the first.

One thing I noticed is that scum have absolutely no way of knowing that you only had 3 protects, since to my memory, you just revealed that you had limited uses.  How would not protecting the cop on day three encourage scum to target the cop on N4 for a convenient protect, and why?  Also, N1 protect was fine; scum can either target the cop or the doc which are both valid, so I don't see any problem with that.  What I do see a problem in, however, is the fact that you never protected anyone on N3 to play a WIFOM game of which scum do not know all the terms.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

How would not protecting the cop on day three encourage scum to target the cop on N4 for a convenient protect, and why?

I'm not following this line of reasoning...what do you mean?

What I do see a problem in, however, is the fact that you never protected anyone on N3 to play a WIFOM game of which scum do not know all the terms.

Which is precisely why I thought I would be able to succeed, since I knew more about the situation at the time than scum did. In any order, I had one protect remaining at the time, and I was originally planning to save it for 4-person LYLO as a last-minute safety net.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

There's a big difference between using WIFOM to try and see who to protect or not protect someone (which is not what I am protesting), and using WIFOM to justify a LYLO case (which is what I was protesting). Note that both my N1 protect *and* my N3 lack of protect were both justified in the end by playing WIFOM games with the scum, but for some reason nobody's complaining about the first.

Some1 else answer this, i'm not that familiar with the concept so...

Reading over wrathie's D3 conduct, two posts stand out:
Post #1 - Requests to quote a mod PM regarding Nietz's scumminess.
Post #2 - Selective scumhunting like whoa. Here you claim Nietz was trying to attack pesco at a time when pesco had dug himself a hole down to the Marianas Trench (which apparently makes Nietz less scummy somehow!), and it wasn't even linked to a post where Nietz was actually voting for pesco. This is followed up in the same post with claiming I gave Nietz a free pass, which would be notable if this wasn't the case for half the town at the time...we can be wrong, you know. Also, if you're trying to justify Town-Nietz, why would you be *attacking* me for giving Town-Nietz a free pass? It doesn't make any sense.

hmm...

and my head hurts.

Regarding Post 1: I think i covered this before, but if you don't get it, I would rather have confirmation if i can, if not well, I'll work with it.


Post 2: correction, i was saying pesco was attacking Nietz, even thou he was pegged as scum i still had reasonable doubt to support him a little before the flip and yea, it made him less scummy then.

and for why Nietz seem scummy when you gave him a free pass was due to the fact that from day 1 to now you were scum in my book. Call it an inkling.

@wrathie:
Why?
Why?

Why you ask?

The protects and etc seems too convenient and you pointing out stuff, ie: my earlier post on scum might being scum was from your line of thought.

Moreover, given this nice pattern, why do you think it's scum trying to justify an Affinity mis-lynch today and not Affinity being scum?

True, that possibility is there.... but seeing his activity level fluctuates and such... well I need a reread on his activity prior to the vote.
if he was lurking and just 'happened' to pop by he is more likely scum but if he was stating cases all the time he is more likely town.

Really. How do you justify this post, then?

yea, that was indeed dancing, in my defense at that point of time my opinion on whether Nietz was scum was based soley on Serp's investigation and my actual thoughts on Niet was that he disappeared and couldn't be contacted, which goes back to me wanting to see whether he would past more.

@ninja by Affinity:

in his defense thou, after reading your point I can say that Alice's action is acceptable in not using a protect on N3 as he was expecting scum to NK Cop but Scum would NOT NK cop as they fear Doc's protect on him.

It is a gamble but it is valid as if he pulled it off Doc would have saved a protect.

That said, it comes with a fatal flaw.

Scum cannot be predicted that easily as they would know the same thing.

The odds are quite high and it is not in favor of Town if Alice is Town Doc.

There are 2 high profile Targets, Doc and Cop.

Doc is unconfirmed but Cop is confirmed.

Given the option of a 100% chance in saving a confirmed Cop and a 50-50 chance of saving Cop and Doc or worst still saving Cop and losing a Doc, i think Alice's gamble is wayyyyy too high for my liking.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

EBWOP:

@ Alice, I would like to ask if that was your thoughts at that time and why would you justify saving a last protect when at the end of it all, if you did pull that off and they NK you, the result was moot.

To put it simply the pay offs are:

--
If Alice protected

1. If Alice protected Cop and survived:
Another Confirmed chance of Finding Scum
Lost of Protect


2. If Alice protected Cop but he got killed:
Another Confirmed Chance of Finding Scum
Lost of Protect

--
If Alice did not protect

3. If Alice did not protect Cop and Cop is killed:
Protect is still available but there is a lack of confirmed Candidates
Lost chance of Finding Scum

4. If Alice did not Protect Cop and survived plus Cop is not killed:
Protect is still available for another day
Confirmed Chance of Finding Scum
 
5. If Alice did not Protect Cop and did not survive but Cop is Around:
Confirmed Chance of Finding scum

in that reasoning Alice made that right move.. looking less scummy, i admit

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Post 2: correction, i was saying pesco was attacking Nietz, even thou he was pegged as scum i still had reasonable doubt to support him a little before the flip and yea, it made him less scummy then.

and pesco was going after Nietz near end day too, and did he try to turn the bandwagon away from pesco?

http://old.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2095.msg105981#msg105981

this post shows he was trying to attack pesco, instead of trying to turn the bandwagon.

and he did state he wanted to hammer pesco before pesco hammered himself.

You mention pesco in the first sentence, the rest of your post, the link *AND* your follow-up post later all refer to Nietz's actions w.r.t pesco, not pesco's actions w.r.t Nietz.

Why you ask?

Because this is LYLO? Argh. This is self-evident.

The protects and etc seems too convenient and you pointing out stuff, ie: my earlier post on scum might being scum was from your line of thought.
True, that possibility is there.... but seeing his activity level fluctuates and such... well I need a reread on his activity prior to the vote.
if he was lurking and just 'happened' to pop by he is more likely scum but if he was stating cases all the time he is more likely town.

Alright, so your reasoning for me being scum is primarily based off of...OMGUS? as far as I can tell? And yes, please do read the thread.
And for like the 14th time, antecedents are your friend. Who is "he"? Affinity?

Scum cannot be predicted that easily as they would know the same thing.

What?

Given the option of a 100% chance in saving a confirmed Cop and a 50-50 chance of saving Cop and Doc or worst still saving Cop and losing a Doc, i think Alice's gamble is wayyyyy too high for my liking.

Problem with your logic: why didn't scum try to off me or Serp N2, then? You seem to imply that it's always going to be a 50-50 choice between offing me or offing Serp every night, except this very clearly wound up being not the case.

[Kilgamayan]

What happens if no majority is reached by the end of the day?

Person with the most votes is lynched.

If there's a tie, day continues until tie is broken. People not involved in the tie cannot be voted for.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

You mention pesco in the first sentence, the rest of your post, the link *AND* your follow-up post later all refer to Nietz's actions w.r.t pesco, not pesco's actions w.r.t Nietz.

I concede that part to ya... you're right on that. I think i was looking for Nietz activity on pesco then.

Because this is LYLO? Argh. This is self-evident.

You're asking why so i am answering you. Keep your cool.

Alright, so your reasoning for me being scum is primarily based off of...OMGUS? as far as I can tell? And yes, please do read the thread.
And for like the 14th time, antecedents are your friend. Who is "he"? Affinity?

Yep, Affinity was who I am referring to.
and I am trying to follow the thread...

Some1 remind me what is OMGUS again? It can't be proved... but neither can some of my actions.

What?
Problem with your logic: why didn't scum try to off me or Serp N2, then? You seem to imply that it's always going to be a 50-50 choice between offing me or offing Serp every night, except this very clearly wound up being not the case.

This 2points are connected, scum knows more than us so any options that can be considered by us could be considered by them as well.

and no, the 50-50 is an example, more details on my subsequent post after Cop successfully found scum and is thus confirmed.

and you have not answered my question, why did you not protect Cop on that particular day?

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Some1 remind me what is OMGUS again? It can't be proved... but neither can some of my actions.

OMGUS = Oh My God, You Suck. It is the act of implying someone is scummy, or voting for someone, primarily/solely based on them attacking you.

This 2points are connected, scum knows more than us so any options that can be considered by us could be considered by them as well.

Except this is not true in my case because scum actually knew less than me w.r.t my role, as I did not claim how many protects I had until now.

and no, the 50-50 is an example, more details on my subsequent post after Cop successfully found scum and is thus confirmed.

Alright, I see now.

and you have not answered my question, why did you not protect Cop on that particular day?

I believe you mean this question:

@ Alice, I would like to ask if that was your thoughts at that time and why would you justify saving a last protect when at the end of it all, if you did pull that off and they NK you, the result was moot.

What? I mean yes, me getting NK'd at any time was a distinct possibility, but I thought that given scum have already been burned once that they'd at least be unlikely to try again. Finally, with all doctor actions, there's always a slight amount of risk involved. I'm not going to try to claim that my course of action is ideal (or that I even played this role well, for that matter), I'm just trying to claim that it is not a scummy one.

[WRATHIE_Beatrice]

OMGUS = Oh My God, You Suck. It is the act of implying someone is scummy, or voting for someone, primarily/solely based on them attacking you.

Nope, not at all, in fact your attacking on me earlier in day 1-5 left me unable to defend myself.
I know I am tunnel vision-ing btw.. but that's me.

Except this is not true in my case because scum actually knew less than me w.r.t my role, as I did not claim how many protects I had until now.

okay, what you mean was that even thou you claimed to be Limited Doc, the amount of protects was not revealed till the last protect?

is that it?

If that is so, I am inclined to agree but that is still subjective to some doubt.

I believe you mean this question:
What? I mean yes, me getting NK'd at any time was a distinct possibility, but I thought that given scum have already been burned once that they'd at least be unlikely to try again. Finally, with all doctor actions, there's always a slight amount of risk involved. I'm not going to try to claim that my course of action is ideal (or that I even played this role well, for that matter), I'm just trying to claim that it is not a scummy one.

Point taken... Thank you. That was what i suspected what you would do and i did post that point earlier in fact.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Nope, not at all, in fact your attacking on me earlier in day 1-5 left me unable to defend myself.

What? Just...what?

I know I am tunnel vision-ing btw.. but that's me.

Tunnel vision in LYLO is extremely hateful, especially when it's done to this degree. What I want is for you to re-read this entire game, and then post what you think everyone here (including myself) is, along with evidence (i.e. poasts) to back this up.

Point taken... Thank you. That was what i suspected what you would do and i did post that point earlier in fact.

What?