[WC3 - DotS] General discussion thread I

[Helepolis]

I need to read on the items.. I have no idea how to treat the items.

[trancehime]

Replay attach...

1v1 (with another AI for lulz) against Choja... It is the replay where I get stuck using China's Earth and Sky Dragon Kick.

Also ass-kickings

[shadowbringer]

some questions..

- is there a weapon/recipe which gives the bleeding orb effect? (like Sange&Yasha's?)
- does the stun effect chance on normal attacks work through cloned heroes? (I don't remember)
- is there a lifesteal-giving item/recipe? (like Mask of Death/Mask of Madness/Helm of the Dominator/Satanic?)
- is there a strong hp-regen item/recipe? (like Heart of the Tarrasque?)
- is there an evasion-based recipe? (like Butterfly?)
- is there an ultimate skill-enhancing recipe? (like Aghanim's Scepter?)
- is there a teleport-giving item/recipe? (not like Gensokyo's Bus Ticket or Yukari's Portal, but like the Blink Dagger)
- is there an armor/recipe which damages melee attackers? (like Blade Mail.. the closest I could find was Myon's Balloon, but it doesn't return damage)
- is there another stun-based weapon/recipe, which also gives attack speed? (which would look more like Monkey King Bar?)
- is there an invisibility-giving weapon/recipe? (like Lothar's Edge?)
- is there a weapon/recipe which deals damage over time to nearby enemies? (like Radiance)
- is there an item solely for attack speed? (like Hyperstone?)
- Kaguya doesn't farm well at the beginning, she can't run away and her support ultimate doesn't look rewarding enough (though the team lineup wasn't given much thought and we're all learning the game). Her first skill drains mp, has limited range and deals little damage. So, it's difficult for her to start having good mp regen until she can focus on attack equipment (she also can't run away if she needs to). Any suggestions?

- edit: here's one more: is there an mp-draining weapon/recipe? Or something which gives the Purge skill?

[Pesco]

some questions..

- is there a weapon/recipe which gives the bleeding orb effect? (like Sange&Yasha's?) No, Rumia's passive has this
- does the stun effect chance on normal attacks work through cloned heroes? (I don't remember) Probably does
- is there a lifesteal-giving item/recipe? (like Mask of Death/Mask of Madness/Helm of the Dominator/Satanic?) No. Lifesteal from an item make things very boring and most heroes unkillable
- is there a strong hp-regen item/recipe? (like Heart of the Tarrasque?) There are 2 items that give a lot of STR, but not the regen
- is there an evasion-based recipe? (like Butterfly?) Yes there is, but the rate is pretty low and doesn't actually synergise with the item
- is there an ultimate skill-enhancing recipe? (like Aghanim's Scepter?) No, the girls' ultimates are broken enough as it is.
- is there a teleport-giving item/recipe? (not like Gensokyo's Bus Ticket or Yukari's Portal, but like the Blink Dagger) There's an item that blinks you randomly, otherwise no
- is there an armor/recipe which damages melee attackers? (like Blade Mail.. the closest I could find was Myon's Balloon, but it doesn't return damage) No Blade Mail, but there really should be one given how imba the game is
- is there another stun-based weapon/recipe, which also gives attack speed? (which would look more like Monkey King Bar?) No, all the effets you want are on separate items
- is there an invisibility-giving weapon/recipe? (like Lothar's Edge?) There's an item that gives you Doppelwalk, it's close enough
- is there a weapon/recipe which deals damage over time to nearby enemies? (like Radiance) No, you don't really need it and the immolation effect isn't good enough late game anyway
- is there an item solely for attack speed? (like Hyperstone?) Hand of Midas equivalent is the best you're going to get
- Kaguya doesn't farm well at the beginning, she can't run away and her support ultimate doesn't look rewarding enough (though the team lineup wasn't given much thought and we're all learning the game). Her first skill drains mp, has limited range and deals little damage. So, it's difficult for her to start having good mp regen until she can focus on attack equipment (she also can't run away if she needs to). Any suggestions? Kaguya is a team player from what I can see. Mokou is better :V

- edit: here's one more: is there an mp-draining weapon/recipe? Or something which gives the Purge skill? An item has a 2 sec purge that drops the target's INT by 60 for 6 seconds. Iku has a 9 second purge-slow and Siki has a purge-damage spell.

[shadowbringer]

thank you for the information.. but I have to disagree about two things:

- lifesteal sometimes isn't the best option for certain characters (which could use a better orb effect instead for the character or against certain opponents, or simply be underused by a character's poor dps); since it can be used to refill life on creeps or heroes, it helps change the decisions/priorities for the attacking/defending teams (like, for example, the one using it has enough life to attempt to take part of a team battle or should he/she heal at the fountain, or if his/her hp is low enough for the defenders to focus on him and then turtle back), if used conservatively.

- radiance can be used to help you kill creeps faster and is good for either tankers or heroes who can use invisibility (this means, it's beneficial if the battles last longer, with your team being able to stay together for a longer time)

these are just my opinions, though. Anyways.. do the latest maps still have that very limited visibility at night? If so, is there a way around that? (that didn't happen in the latest partially-translated version..)

[BallerSupreme]

radiance is one of those items you had to rush in dota, as if you didn't manage it by 35 minutes or so, it just wasn't a good use of gold. I guess for a tank who doesn't have much threat aside from the initial stun/opener (like cent or something) it was still worth getting after vanguard/hood. the magic damage really does add up during teamfights on a good tank.

as for bashes, I think the bashing images effect is the same as dota's, where if there is a bash on the enemy, the image's bash will proc a real bash and continue it, but if the image procs it first it'll be a fake bash.

I'm actually a bit surprised at the lack of agility items, given that there are many str items in their wake. Then again, there is no armlet equivalent, so maybe str carries were stiffed a bit.

[Rikter]

Koishi is overpowered.

[Pesco]

Yeah the best AGI item is probably the Phase Boots in DotS :/

Creeps scale up as you level in DotS. They will alway hurt if you try tank a group and a radiance item doesn't scale up with your level. That's why it's useless in this game.

[trancehime]

thank you for the information.. but I have to disagree about two things:

- lifesteal sometimes isn't the best option for certain characters (which could use a better orb effect instead for the character or against certain opponents, or simply be underused by a character's poor dps); since it can be used to refill life on creeps or heroes, it helps change the decisions/priorities for the attacking/defending teams (like, for example, the one using it has enough life to attempt to take part of a team battle or should he/she heal at the fountain, or if his/her hp is low enough for the defenders to focus on him and then turtle back), if used conservatively.

If Flandre is any indication as to why nobody should ever get lifesteal... Note that Remi has 20% lifesteal AND spell vamp
The point is, everyone's DPS can rise to extremely high levels thanks to items like Lunarite, Demon's Milk Tooth, Portable Donation Box, and basically any form of Add ASPD item...

these are just my opinions, though. Anyways.. do the latest maps still have that very limited visibility at night? If so, is there a way around that? (that didn't happen in the latest partially-translated version..)

I didn't really feel it at all.


Replay uploaded

HAKUREI
(China) Rikter
(Iku) Rizock
(Remilia) Helepolis
(Hina) Choja

MORIYA
(Reisen) TranceHime

Winner:

Spoiler:

Moriya

[Rikter]

If Flandre is any indication as to why nobody should ever get lifesteal... Note that Remi has 20% lifesteal AND spell vamp
The point is, everyone's DPS can rise to extremely high levels thanks to items like Lunarite, Demon's Milk Tooth, Portable Donation Box, and basically any form of Add ASPD item...

I didn't really feel it at all.

Sub Rose Koishi with Lifesteal :V

On a more serious note Mokou would be even better with lifesteal due to her attack speed buff.

[trancehime]

Who the hell said Yuka had a maximum on how many flowers she could summon

It seems limitless! As I learned today.

[Helepolis]

I am still trying to come up with a decent and swift build for Remilia. Though no matter how I look at it, she requires MP regen on lvl 6. Alot of MP regen if you want to walk in style between the creeps, farming exp like a bastard Ojousama.

I am still thinking on getting blue llama first then eirin doll and then work my way up to hakkero and llama limited type. Or HJ bug + llama limited =.= orz

[BallerSupreme]

I think grabbing sake early game will help mp a lot, and it can be built into the eirin doll later.
I guess I'll pick Remilia next game I play and try a few different things and post back.
As for the llama, as a colour Red is much more majestic than Blue!!

Edit: what i tried doing was..

skill build
1,3,5,7 - spear
2 - bat
4,8,9,10 - hp drain
6, 11, 16 ult
rest of bat whenever you want

my rational being, the bat form uses up a lot of sp, so I only left it as an escape skill.
spear is amazing
hp drain + spear lets you stay around forever, especially when you get the ult.

I'm also considering skipping the ult at 6 and getting it at 10. I found Remilia's spear to be incredibly good, and i was able to farm well just fighting in lane without using skills. I also managed a bunch of hero kills using spear (especially by shooting it through the mountains from the fog). I liked her hp drain skill a lot as well.

For items, I took 2 recipe of oz, some recovery (2 mp pot, 1 hp pot, though the hp pot probably isn't needed). After that, I got sake, which let me harass a lot with spear, and grabbed a str llama, but i think int llama is fine too. Red llama gives 136 hp from the str, but with remilia's hp draining I don't think it matters unless you're against someone with a high damage nuke.
Afterwards I made the eirin doll and went for hakkero. I'm not sure if rainbow llama is good before the hakkero, I'll have to try it next time I play Remilia.

I didn't use nightless red early on to farm creeps, I'll try getting it at 10 instead of 6 and seeing how well it goes for me. At 6, my sp pool was too small, and I was saving my sp for lancing heroes.

[trancehime]

No, you definitely want to take a level of Nightless Castle at 6 otherwise your only form of nuke is Spear and the cooldown on that thing is way too long to properly gank anyone. At the end of the game though you DO want some form of HP. If you check the replay I uploaded earlier I, as Reisen, managed to almost kill Remi while she had Red the Nightless Castle because the DPS on Reisen is fucking nuts. Also NOTE THAT Castle is toggle, you can turn it on for a few seconds to deal some serious damage, turn it off, AA, and then finish off with Spear. It is really not that hard.

[Pesco]

You would want rainbow llama to have the move speed to chase while on Nightless. If you farm well, you've got your speed sorted out by level 6/7 and a Mini Hakkero should be affordable by level 11/12. Some nice-to-haves for late game imo: 3D escapade and substitution doll.

So far, I've used Mokou, Rumia, Yuyuko, Iku, Youmu, Aya, Momiji, Yuugi and Marisa. Looking forward to trying Suwako, Orin, Murasa and Letty

[Helepolis]

Right after playing and trying out various stuff I came to the conclusion that Remilia is not quite the "steamroller" as she is. She is offensive supportive and an excellent pusher to help your fellow creeps progress faster and annoy the enemy more.

Your goal: Become Charismatic walker while having maximum MP aka (Spam Red the Nightless castle + Gungnir)
Must get items (I think):

Hakkero, the active power is instant 5500% MP regen, meaning you can keep Nightless on for 12 seconds, hold a cup of Earl Gray tea in your left hand and throw Gungnir spears with your right hand. If the enemy girl makes a run for it, activate Bats and take her down.  Bats outrun any girl unless you are Momiji / Aya with speed build. Of course at the end, it is all dependant on the battle situation, your team and the enemy.

Limited Llama, activate Hakkero first then Llama and your Charisma will overflow. Because your MP won't go down, you become almost unstoppable vs creeps for 12 seconds. Don't forget to throw some spears around. Just be careful you don't get overconfident as melee chars will hurt you hard.  The +120 move speed + godly +atk.spd is instant harassment and with Gugnir you probably will take out the girl before it can even run away.

HJ Bug: This is just to make Remilia more durable. To be honest , I haven't found a way to make Remilia have tremendous HP like the melee chars. This is open for debate.

Level 1
Skills: Gugnir lvl 1
Items (631, rest 179):

Soft drink (375) - Gives 40% MP regen and preparation for Eirin doll
Yukkuri (50) - We love her. She shops for you.
Tea (100) - because you want to be spamming gugnir and bats to gain exp fast and money. Remilia is TOO slow to mostly get last hit with her regular attack.
Cucumber (106) - Easy stats

Farming / Exping
At level 2, get bat lvl 1 and use spear + bats to fast kill creeps up to lvl 6. You don't need her life steal aura at if you play right, else just hit it lvl 1. You won't be stealing HP in bat form anyway as all spells/effects are nullified upon transformation into bat. While bat control requires extreme planning and precision, it's useless on lvl 1, but becomes instantly interesting on lvl 2 to gank creeps with your own creeps. I don't actually max out 1 single skill because the MP cost for Remilia on her attacks is enormous and you won't be able to spank Gugnir if it is level 3 or more. Best is to keep Gugnir + Bats at lvl 2 and 1 point in Life steal aura. At Level 6 you will be getting Nightless anyway.

Level 6+
You should have plenty of money for Eirin doll if you play it right and immediately get Nightless. If you feel like lucky, continue to farm and wait for it to get Eirin doll so you can get Sake immediately as well.

Skills: Red the nightless castle, max out Gugnir and have atleast lvl 3 bats. Because you will be starting to harass enemy girls with your gugnir and if Fate decides it, transform into bats and finish off the girl. Remember that harassing mode will make you suffer from Exp + money. So if your team mates are already doing that, focus on farming. Because the faster you get Hakkero, the sooner you can be of use.

Items (450+900 - 179 from previous = 1171): > and also optional (875)

Level 9~11
Depending on your luck and fate, you will already have enough money for Hakkero. If not, focus on getting party basket first as the 100% MP regen can help you spam/farm faster until you have money for Sake gourd.

Skills: If you are lvl 11, upgrade Nightless no matter what. The increase in dmg is extremely noticeable when walking Charismatically among creeps. You will have probably: Gugnir (4) Bats (3) Aura (2) Nightless(2). Focus on maxing out aura first or at least up to lvl 3. You will have plenty of choice whether to max out Bats as well or invest in base stats.

(875 + 875 = 1750)   >

When you have enough money >>>
(875) >

Once you got the Hakkero, focus on Llama Limited edition

(500+500+550 = 1550) >

(700 + 600 + 500 = 1800) >


Level 16+
This will take you a while, best is to get Gum first, then God's hand then Birdy, as MP is no longer your problem but HP is.

(1000 + 1100 + 1200 = 3300) >


Further I have no idea. While this build is slow, it's definitely not useful for 1v1 unless you know what you are doing. I think even for 2v2 this would be risky, except for the Hakkero. Ideas/feedback ?

[trancehime]

I actually built Remilia with a Frozen Frog (Blessed Frog + 2x Ice Cubes) because she can be a pseudo-DPSer as her INT growth is obscene, and she still has 17 + 2.0 AGI growth, which is nothing to laugh at for an INT hero like Remi. It's also possible to buy the Monkeynator which boosts Remi's movespeed to even higher levels without having to resort to Bats, but this is kind of expensive. Later on though Remi has massive farming potential so you should have no issue with this.

[BallerSupreme]

Hmm, the reason why I wanted to take life steal over bats, during a teamfight or a gank, red does such significant damage at level 11, with level 4 life steal it is very difficult to kill Remilia. Bats pushes your lane a lot if you use it to farm creeps as does nightless red, leaving you open to ganks and yourself with low sp. I feel like getting rainbow llama so early isn't helpful since it drains a lot of sp, and nightless red is easy to dodge. Even if you have 420 move speed, with nightless red toggled on you'll have around 300 which any hero (except Kaguya) can outrun, if they have any sort of llama.

Also, spear's cooldown is 8 seconds at all levels, which is on the fast side. As far as I can tell it also deals pure damage so it'll kill any non high str hero (like yuugi or meiling) in two hits.

For last hitting, Remilia's base damage is good (and she has good int growth), and the threat of spear-in-the-face will discourage others from trying to deny your creeps so last hitting shouldn't be difficult (though i don't notice anyone actually trying to deny)

I think Frozen Frog is a good choice as well. It adds a lot of hp and stats, and the orb is awesome for helping with nightless red. If you get attacked a lot during fights, getting the myon balloon would likely also work well, since it adds a lot of eHP and slows people attacking you.
I think the other good choice would be Dr. Jekyll mask, or whatever it's called, to force people to stay in your nightless red while you tank their weak attacks.

I'd like to try remilia more because a lot of it is speculation on my part. I played her in a 2 v 3 (me n pesco vs rizrock, kerigis, and choja i think) so I may have gotten a lot more kills than I would've otherwise.

[communist unity (comm-unity)]

Patchy's pretty fun to play, but she's so frail it's nearly impossible to get into range for her spells that aren't firewall. I guess it'd help putting all the gold into ice cubes and their recipes, instead of full INT like I did. She needs that HP.

She'd be really good against melee heroes (and anyone else lacking range), though.

[trancehime]

Hmm, the reason why I wanted to take life steal over bats, during a teamfight or a gank, red does such significant damage at level 11, with level 4 life steal it is very difficult to kill Remilia. Bats pushes your lane a lot if you use it to farm creeps as does nightless red, leaving you open to ganks and yourself with low sp. I feel like getting rainbow llama so early isn't helpful since it drains a lot of sp, and nightless red is easy to dodge. Even if you have 420 move speed, with nightless red toggled on you'll have around 300 which any hero (except Kaguya) can outrun, if they have any sort of llama.

Rainbow Llama is good even without spamming the Active all the time because it gives +10 to every stat. That's already an Ulti Orb/Boots of Speed right there.

[BallerSupreme]

I think you're definitely right for Remilia. I hadn't bothered looking before but the benefits from the Eirin Doll are almost exactly the same as the ones from Rainbow Llama and she intends on getting both either way. Clearly the Rainbow Llama is a better choice after normal Llama (especially if you got blue llama first), unless you want to rush a mini hakkero. (maybe there's someone like Letty or Mysita on the team?)

In case anyone was curious about the calculation I did

Squishy Int Hero:
In order to fix your hero's squishiness, you pick up the Red Llama first (136 hp  :V). The upgrade to Rainbow Llama costs 1650, and the only stats you really benefit from (at the time of purchase) are the additional str (34 more hp) and int (10 damage, 150 mana).

You're mostly paying for the mana, though the hp and damage are good too. If the hero didn't need the active, the Yagokoro would be superior (instead of 1650 for 10 attack, 34 hp and 150, you're paying 1400 gold for 8 attack, 20% more mana regen and 90 mana), which you would want to buy anyway if you intended to make Substitute doll or Mini Hakkero. If you really wanted more hp, attack and mana, you could spend 205 of that leftover gold and buy a mushroom (giving you a total of 10 attack, 34 hp, 120 mana, and 20% mana regen).


And just for fun, some alternative choices.  :ohdear:

You could pick up a Lunar Landing Rocket manual and Sake (1825 gold?) netting you 150 mana, 80% mana regen, and over half of a Magician's Hat, or a LLR and Fruit knife and be over halfway done with a Scarlet Devil Launcher.

If you did it the other way and got a Blue Llama first, you'd be paying 1750 for 170 hp and 30 mana. You could get God's Right Hand instead (160 hp and 130 mana for 1200 gold) and be a third of the way done with HJ's Bug. You could also just get a gum and build something else I guess. I haven't done it this way so I dunno  since I haven't played a lot of the int heroes.

Patchy's pretty fun to play, but she's so frail it's nearly impossible to get into range for her spells that aren't firewall. I guess it'd help putting all the gold into ice cubes and their recipes, instead of full INT like I did. She needs that HP.

She'd be really good against melee heroes (and anyone else lacking range), though.

I recall you facesmashing me by putting a firewall behind me then royal flare when I was trying to harass you. Firewall is so cool

In other news, there's enough people on Hamachi to play a 4v4 game. Maybe we should organize a time?  :V

[Pesco]

Would love to have the time for the game, but assignments can not be dragged too much more. If and only if my deadlines are met, then I'll play.

But proposing a sunday morning/afternoon (me, Hele and Trance) and saturday late night (everyone else) for the 4v4.

[trancehime]

I'm kind of busy this weekend but I'll try my best to fit in a game or two.

[Rikter]

I'm only free on weekdays and in the morning unfortunately.

[Ghaleon]

Is there a place I can look at character skills and such? Wiki's character list redirects me to the genetic touhou canon pages rather than the dots stuff.

[trancehime]

Is there a place I can look at character skills and such? Wiki's character list redirects me to the genetic touhou canon pages rather than the dots stuff.

There's a link to it on the first post but it's highly outdated.

I'm working on guides to the heroes, but it'll take a long time before everyone's done.

Right now, Sanae is in progress.

[Helepolis]

Saturday late night and Sunday I am available.

[Ghaleon]

There's a link to it on the first post but it's highly outdated.

I'm working on guides to the heroes, but it'll take a long time before everyone's done.

Right now, Sanae is in progress.

sorry didn't notice that before.

Oh god Eiki lol, that looks so annoying.

[Pesco]

sorry didn't notice that before.

Oh god Eiki lol, that looks so annoying.

Eiki is tricky to play I'd say. She's a great way to counter Koishi or anyone that's uncontrollably going off killing everything in their way.

[Ghaleon]

Eiki is tricky to play I'd say. She's a great way to counter Koishi or anyone that's uncontrollably going off killing everything in their way.

Yeah I don't know if I'd like to play her myself, it's just.. I imagine that monitor life expectancy drops really fast when you're playing AGAINST her >=P