Author Topic: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!  (Read 249456 times)

GunnerReisen

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #270 on: January 23, 2013, 10:55:20 PM »
As far as the completeness of the list goes, does anyone see any holes to fill or additions to make? Things to edit or anything? Id like it to stand a bit of scrutiny before I go ti writing
I wouldn't mind at least you giving the 98 characters a nod or something.

Lmao, thanks for the idea guys. So far I like the Aya, Hatate, and Momizi, Satori, Rin, and Utsuho, Yuyuko, Yukari, and Youmu, and the Kanako, Suwako, and Sanae teams. Gotta chose between those then... hmmm...
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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #271 on: January 23, 2013, 11:42:33 PM »
Has anyone heard of a "MST" or "spooning" of a fanfic?
As a side note, we've had issue with "spoonings" in the past.  It might be wise to do it offsite then host like with other borderline fics.

GunnerReisen

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #272 on: January 24, 2013, 12:01:00 AM »
As a side note, we've had issue with "spoonings" in the past.  It might be wise to do it offsite then host like with other borderline fics.
Hm~? Well, may I at least know why?
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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #273 on: January 24, 2013, 12:15:06 AM »
Hm~? Well, may I at least know why?
Firstly, we do not want PSL to be involved in a dispute between two authors or communities.  In addition previously it devolved to a series of bad jokes in bad taste surrounded by bad fic.  While I'm not saying it's forbidden (we've had it done successfully before as well) it would be better done off site and linked to on PSL.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2013, 12:19:41 AM by Yuuyiced Fairy »

Moerin

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #274 on: January 24, 2013, 12:18:24 AM »
Hmmm, so... Admittedly it's been a while since I've been in this part of the forums, but I had this concept for a story that I actually really want to write.  Even actually drew up some concept art of the main character, ahah~  But, um... I'm still not entirely sure if it's a good idea or not... Also, it's an original work completely unconnected to Touhou, and I can't remember if it's okay to discuss ideas and concepts about stuff like this here or now, so, um... Yeah. >.<
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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #275 on: January 24, 2013, 12:22:15 AM »
Hmmm, so... Admittedly it's been a while since I've been in this part of the forums, but I had this concept for a story that I actually really want to write.  Even actually drew up some concept art of the main character, ahah~  But, um... I'm still not entirely sure if it's a good idea or not... Also, it's an original work completely unconnected to Touhou, and I can't remember if it's okay to discuss ideas and concepts about stuff like this here or now, so, um... Yeah. >.<
*Throws a pokeball at the wild Moerin.*

You can ask questions about any story Touhou or non Touhou you want, though replies are as always highly variable.  Same with IRC.

Moerin

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #276 on: January 24, 2013, 12:53:33 AM »
*Throws a pokeball at the wild Moerin.*

You can ask questions about any story Touhou or non Touhou you want, though replies are as always highly variable.  Same with IRC.
...I've not been away that long, right? >.<  ...Wait, I have.  Hurm.  Need to rectify that at some point.

Anyways, um... Okays, the idea.  I was thinking about how to put a fresh new spin on the magical girl genre, see, and I came up with this idea that... Basically boils down to magical girls meet Highlander with a card motif, but... Yeah.  The working title at the moment is "Trump Card", but we'll see how that goes.

The basic idea is that, every so and so years, a group of ten magical girls have a battle on Earth to decide who becomes the new ruler of the magical world.  The combatants are composed of eight "Face Cards" representing the suits of both a regular playing card deck and the Minor Arcana, who are sent from the magical world a few years before the battle, stripped of their powers until the battle begins, and made to live as mundane humans to help shape their mindsets for their potential future as "The World", the divinely powered and nigh-omnipotent ruler of the magical world; and two "Wild Cards" representing the Joker and the Fool, who are two randomly selected mundane humans from Earth who are pulled into the contest to fill out the numbers, add some variety and make things more interesting.  Whilst the battle technically isn't to the death, killing an opposing magical girl is generally considered the easiest way to succeed and isn't exactly frowned upon.

Enter our protagonist, designated as Ace of Spades, the Card of Death.  She's a strong, serious contender who has her mind set upon becoming The World, but she is also unwilling to kill her opponents; she believes that mercy is one of the most important qualities for a ruler.  The story would start as her powers were returning to her and the game was beginning, and would follow her on her quest to defeat her rivals in her attempt to become The World.  Throughout the story she would encounter and battle various other magical girls who have entered the contest for various reasons; some like her wish to become The World (although their motives for doing so might not be entirely pure), some simply wish to have a chance to prove their skills in combat, and some have been dragged in by a trick of fate or out of sheer desperation.

Whilst the set-up does give it the potential to go to some dark places, I'd hope that Ace's ideals and mindset would help keep the idealism that is a cornerstone of the magical girl genre everpresent; no matter how dark things get, there's always a light of hope to wash away the despair, after all.  Um... So yeah, it's just a rough thing at the moment, but as it turns out I really like this idea and was wondering if it's actually worth pursuing. >.<  So, um, does anyone think it sounds like a good idea, or have any criticisms they'd like to raise?
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GunnerReisen

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #277 on: January 24, 2013, 01:42:32 AM »
Firstly, we do not want PSL to be involved in a dispute between two authors or communities.  In addition previously it devolved to a series of bad jokes in bad taste surrounded by bad fic.  While I'm not saying it's forbidden (we've had it done successfully before as well) it would be better done off site and linked to on PSL.
Unyuu~? Ohhh, I get what you mean.

Well, the way I do it is I usually do troll fics or ones where the author hasn't been seen since (ie My Immortal.) If I do find a bad fanfic, or just one I wanna riff, I try to contact the ones who wrote it. I just don't see fanfics and go "GIMME YO TYPES YIP YIP YAP." If that's what you're worried about.
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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #278 on: January 24, 2013, 02:05:15 AM »
...I've not been away that long, right? >.<  ...Wait, I have.  Hurm.  Need to rectify that at some point.

Anyways, um... Okays, the idea.  I was thinking about how to put a fresh new spin on the magical girl genre, see, and I came up with this idea that... Basically boils down to magical girls meet Highlander with a card motif, but... Yeah.  The working title at the moment is "Trump Card", but we'll see how that goes.

The basic idea is that, every so and so years, a group of ten magical girls have a battle on Earth to decide who becomes the new ruler of the magical world.  The combatants are composed of eight "Face Cards" representing the suits of both a regular playing card deck and the Minor Arcana, who are sent from the magical world a few years before the battle, stripped of their powers until the battle begins, and made to live as mundane humans to help shape their mindsets for their potential future as "The World", the divinely powered and nigh-omnipotent ruler of the magical world; and two "Wild Cards" representing the Joker and the Fool, who are two randomly selected mundane humans from Earth who are pulled into the contest to fill out the numbers, add some variety and make things more interesting.  Whilst the battle technically isn't to the death, killing an opposing magical girl is generally considered the easiest way to succeed and isn't exactly frowned upon.

Enter our protagonist, designated as Ace of Spades, the Card of Death.  She's a strong, serious contender who has her mind set upon becoming The World, but she is also unwilling to kill her opponents; she believes that mercy is one of the most important qualities for a ruler.  The story would start as her powers were returning to her and the game was beginning, and would follow her on her quest to defeat her rivals in her attempt to become The World.  Throughout the story she would encounter and battle various other magical girls who have entered the contest for various reasons; some like her wish to become The World (although their motives for doing so might not be entirely pure), some simply wish to have a chance to prove their skills in combat, and some have been dragged in by a trick of fate or out of sheer desperation.

Whilst the set-up does give it the potential to go to some dark places, I'd hope that Ace's ideals and mindset would help keep the idealism that is a cornerstone of the magical girl genre everpresent; no matter how dark things get, there's always a light of hope to wash away the despair, after all.  Um... So yeah, it's just a rough thing at the moment, but as it turns out I really like this idea and was wondering if it's actually worth pursuing. >.<  So, um, does anyone think it sounds like a good idea, or have any criticisms they'd like to raise?
It sounds quite interesting.  Only question off the top of my head is how the imported magical girls are fit in (foster family or what) and why there are gaps in the arcana (other then for sanity I suppose).

GunnerReisen

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #279 on: January 24, 2013, 03:17:32 AM »
Have Judgement be in there as a boss or something. /bad ideas
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Moerin

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #280 on: January 24, 2013, 07:43:06 AM »
It sounds quite interesting.  Only question off the top of my head is how the imported magical girls are fit in (foster family or what) and why there are gaps in the arcana (other then for sanity I suppose).
The first point is something I still need to figure out, yeah.  As for the second one, I kind of decided that the Major Arcana (aside from The Fool) were more like some kind of pantheon for the magical world (Death 13 being some kind of psychopomp for magical girls, for example), although that's probably mostly so that I can still include them in some way without overloading myself with magical girls, ahah~

Hmmm... Might actually try to get this to work, then...
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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #281 on: January 25, 2013, 12:08:36 AM »
so.............. I guess the list looks good?

GunnerReisen

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #282 on: January 27, 2013, 07:01:57 PM »
So far I've watered it down to the teams of: Aya, Hatate, and Momizi
or
Satori, Rin, and Utsuho

Which sounds better?

EDIT: Scratch that, I have a better idea. Hopefully the first fanfic-mocking will be up soon this week.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 09:08:29 PM by GunnerReisen »
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Jmyster

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #283 on: March 26, 2013, 11:56:54 PM »
Question on protocol: Do you think it's better to wait until you have a few chapters completed (for largers fics) before posting a topic? I've got the prologue done for a little project of mine (rock-stupid Mary-Sue protagonist gets stripped of all powers and rebanished to Gensoukyou, hilarity ensues), but I'm not sure whether to post it yet.

Alfred F. Jones

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #284 on: April 05, 2013, 05:12:26 PM »
Question on protocol: Do you think it's better to wait until you have a few chapters completed (for largers fics) before posting a topic? I've got the prologue done for a little project of mine (rock-stupid Mary-Sue protagonist gets stripped of all powers and rebanished to Gensoukyou, hilarity ensues), but I'm not sure whether to post it yet.
I am late to answering this because you've already put that fic up, but I'm gonna post anyway because I know I've been asked this question before.

It's all up to you! Personally I only really get my writing underway after I've posted the beginning in public and now have peer pressure to keep me going. >_> But I know some people like to have several chapters already written so they can keep a certain distance between what's been posted and the latest chapter that's up.

Fonzi

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #285 on: April 07, 2013, 10:24:18 AM »
While I'm a newbie to the shrinemaiden, I've been writing a fanfic for about 3 years. And during the course of those years, I've come to all sorts of obstacles that I had to deal with. Sticking to canon closely and introducing new elements that don't contradict established canon has been my objective, but nobody and nothing is perfect and therefore, I have made several slips (both intentional and unintentional).
However, my greatest dilemma came about when I had planned occasions where the Spell Card rules would be ignored and serious old-fashioned danmaku battles would ensue. With Reimu being traditionally one of the main heroines, this would indeed be a problem to portray in a believable fashion. Why? Basically due to her broken ability to float away from reality, A.K.A. Hax Sign "You Just Plain F**king Lose!" While there are multitudes of characters with "broken" abilities in Touhou universe and many battles would be decided simply by who would use their power first, Reimu's power literally makes all other characters' powers obsolete when such a clash would occur. And for the sake of making the story actually interesting instead of Reimu just going god-mode, I was coerced to apply some serious nerfing to our lovely miko. (I've done so by giving Fantasy Heaven/Nature (depending on translation) a time limit. A much longer time limit than any Spell Card you face in the games, but it's still a significant limitation). Even now I feel a bit iffy about this decision. Now, technically there are a few characters who could end up in an eternal stalemate if they were fighting seriously against a serious Reimu, but I think ZUN went a bit overboard when he gave her a power that could literally make her a God (with capital "G") and she could toggle it on and off on a whim and for as long as she wants. And what's more, she didn't have to do a thing to gain it. She simply has it, because she's a Hakurei, unlike Marisa, who had to work hard and study hard to get to her current level. Characters with plot armor are really hard to work with, if one plans on keeping them interesting without throwing canon out of the window.  Even funnier is, when plot-armored characters clash (as seen in SSiB). But assuming Reimu's non-Spell Card Fantasy Heaven is perfect as ZUN implies, she could take on all of Gensokyo, all the gods and all Lunarian civilization by herself and rule the known universe as a deity. Even if they all attacked her simultaneously. If she were to ever become a villain, the world would end.  I'm not even sure why I'm writing this all... Perhaps I just wanted someone's opinion about the way I nerfed Reimu. Is nerfing really necessary? Or is there some other way around it, while still making things interesting? Has anyone else here had a similar problem? Does anyone think that trying to stick to canon in fanfiction is a fool's quest? Please, let me know.

Hoshiguma-douji

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #286 on: April 18, 2013, 07:14:43 PM »
While I'm a newbie to the shrinemaiden, I've been writing a fanfic for about 3 years. And during the course of those years, I've come to all sorts of obstacles that I had to deal with. Sticking to canon closely and introducing new elements that don't contradict established canon has been my objective, but nobody and nothing is perfect and therefore, I have made several slips (both intentional and unintentional).
However, my greatest dilemma came about when I had planned occasions where the Spell Card rules would be ignored and serious old-fashioned danmaku battles would ensue. With Reimu being traditionally one of the main heroines, this would indeed be a problem to portray in a believable fashion. Why? Basically due to her broken ability to float away from reality, A.K.A. Hax Sign "You Just Plain F**king Lose!" While there are multitudes of characters with "broken" abilities in Touhou universe and many battles would be decided simply by who would use their power first, Reimu's power literally makes all other characters' powers obsolete when such a clash would occur. And for the sake of making the story actually interesting instead of Reimu just going god-mode, I was coerced to apply some serious nerfing to our lovely miko. (I've done so by giving Fantasy Heaven/Nature (depending on translation) a time limit. A much longer time limit than any Spell Card you face in the games, but it's still a significant limitation). Even now I feel a bit iffy about this decision. Now, technically there are a few characters who could end up in an eternal stalemate if they were fighting seriously against a serious Reimu, but I think ZUN went a bit overboard when he gave her a power that could literally make her a God (with capital "G") and she could toggle it on and off on a whim and for as long as she wants. And what's more, she didn't have to do a thing to gain it. She simply has it, because she's a Hakurei, unlike Marisa, who had to work hard and study hard to get to her current level. Characters with plot armor are really hard to work with, if one plans on keeping them interesting without throwing canon out of the window.  Even funnier is, when plot-armored characters clash (as seen in SSiB). But assuming Reimu's non-Spell Card Fantasy Heaven is perfect as ZUN implies, she could take on all of Gensokyo, all the gods and all Lunarian civilization by herself and rule the known universe as a deity. Even if they all attacked her simultaneously. If she were to ever become a villain, the world would end.  I'm not even sure why I'm writing this all... Perhaps I just wanted someone's opinion about the way I nerfed Reimu. Is nerfing really necessary? Or is there some other way around it, while still making things interesting? Has anyone else here had a similar problem? Does anyone think that trying to stick to canon in fanfiction is a fool's quest? Please, let me know.

YES, I have had this issue, which is mainly why I never write Reimu being perfect. xD I think that fanfiction get so far from cannon that it's really hard to do as of now, but if anyone can get it, I'd love to see it.

My suggestion? Focus on the imperfect characters. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but it's not; Reimu is the main character, so naturally she'd have the most work done on her. Be unique. Give some love to someone out there who hasn't been loved.

That sounded wrong, but you know what I mean.

Hmm...another idea is to have Reimu mess up at something and actually have her have to work for it. Her struggle could work as a plot, yeah?

Fonzi

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #287 on: April 18, 2013, 08:02:28 PM »
Ah, I already thought I posted in a dead thread.

Quote
My suggestion? Focus on the imperfect characters. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but it's not; Reimu is the main character, so naturally she'd have the most work done on her. Be unique. Give some love to someone out there who hasn't been loved.

Such was my intention. While I won't deny Reimu her status as the main incident-resolver, in this particular incident, she is going to get and need a lot of support of a lot of different characters. (don't want to spoil too much) She cannot solve it with her notorious luck and intuition alone. Who knows... Maybe in time I'll even figure out a plot excuse to disable her the use of her "cheat" power.  As for other characters who don't get as much "love" in touhou fanfics, it's going to be a challenge as well. I am well aware that with over 80+ canon characters and with about 20+ OCs, it's impossible to spread the "screentime" among all of them fairly. If I was writing a fic about only a small group of characters, like Team 9, for example, that would be so much easier. Maybe in my next work... If there will be any.

Hoshiguma-douji

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #288 on: April 18, 2013, 10:30:36 PM »
I think that both should work nicely. I tend to use a small circle of characters in my fics, but I still really want to see how this plays out. Could you at least spoil which characters you intend on using? xD

Fonzi

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #289 on: April 18, 2013, 10:42:10 PM »
For Reimu's support or for the fic as whole?
Reimu shall be supported by her usual acquaintences and some unlikely ones too. I'm trying to re-beta-read all the chapters so I could post them here 1 per day, so if you're interested, you'll find out soon enough.
As for the grand scheme of things, I had a daring objective to feature all of the canon cast. Some are the "main" ones, some are supporting, and some only make minor cameo appearances. I'm not sure if I'll manage this, but the story is far from finished, so anything can happen yet...

Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #290 on: April 30, 2013, 04:53:13 PM »
While I'm a newbie to the shrinemaiden, I've been writing a fanfic for about 3 years. And during the course of those years, I've come to all sorts of obstacles that I had to deal with. Sticking to canon closely and introducing new elements that don't contradict established canon has been my objective, but nobody and nothing is perfect and therefore, I have made several slips (both intentional and unintentional).
However, my greatest dilemma came about when I had planned occasions where the Spell Card rules would be ignored and serious old-fashioned danmaku battles would ensue. With Reimu being traditionally one of the main heroines, this would indeed be a problem to portray in a believable fashion. Why? Basically due to her broken ability to float away from reality, A.K.A. Hax Sign "You Just Plain F**king Lose!" While there are multitudes of characters with "broken" abilities in Touhou universe and many battles would be decided simply by who would use their power first, Reimu's power literally makes all other characters' powers obsolete when such a clash would occur. And for the sake of making the story actually interesting instead of Reimu just going god-mode, I was coerced to apply some serious nerfing to our lovely miko. (I've done so by giving Fantasy Heaven/Nature (depending on translation) a time limit. A much longer time limit than any Spell Card you face in the games, but it's still a significant limitation). Even now I feel a bit iffy about this decision. Now, technically there are a few characters who could end up in an eternal stalemate if they were fighting seriously against a serious Reimu, but I think ZUN went a bit overboard when he gave her a power that could literally make her a God (with capital "G") and she could toggle it on and off on a whim and for as long as she wants. And what's more, she didn't have to do a thing to gain it. She simply has it, because she's a Hakurei, unlike Marisa, who had to work hard and study hard to get to her current level. Characters with plot armor are really hard to work with, if one plans on keeping them interesting without throwing canon out of the window.  Even funnier is, when plot-armored characters clash (as seen in SSiB). But assuming Reimu's non-Spell Card Fantasy Heaven is perfect as ZUN implies, she could take on all of Gensokyo, all the gods and all Lunarian civilization by herself and rule the known universe as a deity. Even if they all attacked her simultaneously. If she were to ever become a villain, the world would end.  I'm not even sure why I'm writing this all... Perhaps I just wanted someone's opinion about the way I nerfed Reimu. Is nerfing really necessary? Or is there some other way around it, while still making things interesting? Has anyone else here had a similar problem? Does anyone think that trying to stick to canon in fanfiction is a fool's quest? Please, let me know.

"Nerfing"? Don't think it as "nerfing". Ignore those people who keep telling you that the Touhous are absolutely unbeatable and shit. And if they're angry with you for doing that while bringing up canon as "proof", just laugh at them. Say that you're doing ZUN a favor for fixing his own screwed-up canon.

And I agree with you giving a time limit. It's really draining on her energy after all. No one has limitless energy, no one.

Fonzi

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #291 on: April 30, 2013, 07:35:43 PM »
Quote
No one has limitless energy, no one.

Canonically, Reimu has it. Otherwise there wouldn't be "no one could beat her by any method" in IN's description of Fantasy Heaven. It's NOT fair, yes, but in canon ZUN can get away with it, because everyone fights by the Spell Card rules anyway, which forbid the use of one's full power. The result is a survival Spell Card with a time limit of 45 seconds. The Watatsukis? ZUN gets away with them by not putting them in a game. He can make OP characters work, but only within a system of his established rules. And if these rules are thrown away, then problems arise.
Nobody's telling me to hold hold onto canon if I don't like it; it's my own preference. I just don't always share ZUN's viewpoints.

Actually, Reimu's invincibility would explain a lot about the fact that she was able to beat countless of overpowered youkai, ghosts, gods and humans and live to tell the tale. At least before the rules were established. And how she managed to get the youkai to accept the Spell Card System. Only by being more powerful than everyone else. But of course, in PC-98, you have to still battle everyone the hard way. Some might argue that Reimu hadn't developed her powers in that era, as it's an ability to "float", which she didn't learn until EoSD, when she was able to fly without Genji's help. But then again, ZUN told his fans to disregard the PC-98 games just as other derivative works, so a large percentage of Touhou fans don't even consider PC-98 era as part of Touhou canon. Probably ZUN's old shame. Probably he'll feel the same way about some aspects of his Widnows games...
In fanfics, doujins and other non-canon works, we are free to recreate the universe, but the more alterations we make to the original, the more risks we're taking that our work will not be accepted well. I already made my alterations to canon as I saw fit. Even canon has its own contradictions, so I've been told to take it with a grain of salt. But the uneasy feeling whenever I blatantly go against canon is still there. I even had an urge to write a fic that would screw canon as much as possible.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 07:38:57 PM by Fonzi »

Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #292 on: May 02, 2013, 01:36:12 PM »
Canonically, Reimu has it. Otherwise there wouldn't be "no one could beat her by any method" in IN's description of Fantasy Heaven.

That's just hyperbole (or it can be read as "no one could defeat her when it's active")

Besides, it's not like you can't just defeat her before she has a chance to use that.

And we're getting close to powerlevel debates here so let's just drop this, shall we?

but the more alterations we make to the original, the more risks we're taking that our work will not be accepted well.

Not necessarily. Case in point, IM or Chado's works.

Besides, sticking too close to canon can make a very boring story, since ZUN sets it up so that no Touhou can ever actually get harmed or injured for real.

Fonzi

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Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #293 on: May 02, 2013, 05:09:30 PM »
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That's just hyperbole (or it can be read as "no one could defeat her when it's active")

Unfortunately, it says: "If it wasn't just for play (with time limit), no one could beat her by any method." dismissing that possibility. Now I really don't want to start a powerlevel debate and get banned. I'll agree that she can be defeated before she gets to use it. Like I said earlier, without the rules, many battles would be decided simply by who would use their power sooner. Time stop - instant win. Invitation to death - instant win. Fate hack - instant win. Flandre's power - instant win. Boundary hack - instant win. Immortality - win by default. And Reimu's Fantasy Heaven is her ultimate trump card.

Everyone's defeatable, but ZUN is throwing some logs under our feet by declarations such as the one describing Fantasy Heaven or his addition in SoPM interview that the Watatsuki's are literally untouchable by anyone from Gensokyo. By refusing to put them into a game, he basically declares that even with the implication of Spell Card rules, which should give everyone a chance to win, the two sisters would still be unbeatable. And that's where canon begins to contradict itself. Reimu didn't even use her Fantasy Heaven against Yurihime. Instead, she decided to have a god-summoning contest with her. A skill she was only a beginner at.  If Reimu wanted to win at all costs it would be basically a case of "unstoppable force hitting an immovable object." Sakuya basically had her, she held a knife at her neck, but didn't finish her, because she knew that Remilia wanted to be the one to beat her. And that was her mistake. Remilia also had her in a pinch, but when she downed her, she ceased her attack and began taunting her, giving Yorihime a chance to think of the right god to do the job for her.  I think ZUN could put them into games if he wanted to, but he does not.

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Not necessarily. Case in point, IM or Chado's works.

I said it was a risk. Not that it necessarily dooms the fic to be a failure.

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Besides, sticking too close to canon can make a very boring story, since ZUN sets it up so that no Touhou can ever actually get harmed or injured for real.

And this is what I disagree with. Canon =/= boring. Otherwise, nobody would play the games or read ZUN's works and build a fandom around it. Just because nobody dies in canon doesn't make it uninteresting. It would be boring if the fic was basically a retelling of a game with no new elements to add to the original story.

Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #294 on: May 03, 2013, 09:21:33 AM »
And this is what I disagree with. Canon =/= boring. Otherwise, nobody would play the games or read ZUN's works and build a fandom around it. Just because nobody dies in canon doesn't make it uninteresting. It would be boring if the fic was basically a retelling of a game with no new elements to add to the original story.

Honestly, the fandom exists mostly because of the cute characters, not for the story. Touhou's story is quite lacking after all, just like you have demonstrated.

And people play the games because they're good shmup. Since when people play shmup for the plot? They're not RPGs (and even our fan RPGs mostly have shallow plots).

And what I mean by "obeying canon makes a bore of a story" is that obeying canon steers fics to the "cute girls doing hijinks (plus an OC) " territory. They try to be like the mangas but utterly failing at it.

And it's nigh-impossible to create serious works where there's an actual threat to Gensokyo without breaking canon. If not the spellcard rule, the overpowered abilities of the Touhous.

I think most Touhou fanworks that I like ignore the two, and I've yet to really like a work in which they're brought to the front.

Joveus Molai

  • Bear the Word, and the Word will bear you.
  • *
Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #295 on: May 03, 2013, 11:35:12 AM »
I'm not even sure why I'm writing this all... Perhaps I just wanted someone's opinion about the way I nerfed Reimu. Is nerfing really necessary? Or is there some other way around it, while still making things interesting?

"Nerfing" Reimu by directly weakening her powers might be a little tricky; some fans (though not all fans) might get upset if you tweak canon in a haphazard fashion. That said, if you do it right and do it in a way that makes sense, you probably won't piss too many people off.

Some potential explanations for why Reimu got nerfed:

It turns out that Reimu draws her power from an external source (the Gensokyo border, the god(s) of Hakurei shrine, her yin-yang orbs, etc.), and that external source was destroyed or weakened in some way.

The Hakurei god(s) finally got fed up with her chronic impiety and cursed her.

Yukari warped the border between "floating" and "not-floating".

Eirin's shady new drug

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Does anyone think that trying to stick to canon in fanfiction is a fool's quest? Please, let me know.

Derivative works--whether it be film, or fiction writing, or comics, or what have you--must always play a balancing game. One one hand, you have adherence to canon; on the other hand, you have deviations from canon.

If you adhere too closely to canon, then the question becomes: why I am I reading/watching this when I could basically just read/watch the original thing again? If there's so little difference between what you're making and the work it's deriving from, why are you creating it in the first place?

If you deviate too much from canon, then the question becomes: why are you even associating your work with the thing you're supposedly deriving from? Why call it a Touhou fic at all?

So depending on your definition of "sticking to canon"--yes, sticking to canon can be a fool's errand. People have certain expectations when they read derivative works, since they typically come to experience derivative works after having read or watched the thing it's deriving from first. In their mind, Reimu behaves like ___, Marisa looks like ____, danmaku battles work like ____, and so forth. Play with those expectations too much, and people start getting too distracted by questions like, "Wait, is this really Reimu?" or, " Hey, the Reimu I know doesn't act like that!" This does not mean, however, that you're forbidden from telling stories that play with those expectations somehow.

I suppose what's more important that sticking to canon is having a good understanding of it, and from there crafting stories that fit  a particular vision or interpretation of the canon (or perhaps the opposite: take up an interpretation that fits with a particular story that you want to tell).

Fonzi

  • Comfort from battles
  • Cheers from beers!
Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #296 on: May 03, 2013, 12:19:33 PM »
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If you deviate too much from canon, then the question becomes: why are you even associating your work with the thing you're supposedly deriving from? Why call it a Touhou fic at all?

There is a big difference between creating original elements into an existing setting that do not contradict the canon and blatantly walking over canon with a "screw you, ZUN" attitude. For instance, giving Utsuho the ability to control water or making Akyuu give birth to herself, or killing an immortal being. By sticking close to canon I meant also using original elements, but such elements that would make actual sense in the canonical setting. Filling the blanks instead of erasing and rewriting canon.

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That said, if you do it right and do it in a way that makes sense, you probably won't piss too many people off.

I figured as much. The question is: "How?"

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Eirin's shady new drug

Yeah. Let's not forget about Moriya Shrine conspiracy  :D

Joveus Molai

  • Bear the Word, and the Word will bear you.
  • *
Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #297 on: May 04, 2013, 03:05:54 AM »
I figured as much. The question is: "How?"

My suggestion:

Research Touhou lore. Read the wiki, read the supplemental comics (Strange and Bright Nature Deity, Oriental Sacred Place, Eastern and Little Nature Deity, Silent Sinner in Blue, Forbidden Scrollery, Wild and Horned Hermit), read the dialogue scripts in the games, read the game endings, read the supplemental stories (Cage in Lunatic Runagate, Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Symposium of Post-Mysticism, Curiosities of Lotus Asia). 

Once you've familiarized yourself with the majority of the body of Touhou lore, come up with interpretations of information you've gathered on that lore. As long as you've got a decent grasp of the characters you're writing and know the basics of Touhou metaphysics, you probably needn't worry too much about things making sense; as long as your knowledge base is similar to that of your audience, and as long as you don't interpret that knowledge in really bizarre ways, the stuff you come up with ought to be sensible enough so that no one except for total stick-up-their ass readers will howl for your blood for canon violations or similar mistakes.

As you said yourself, fill in the gaps in the canon. If you understand the canon lore, the methods you use to fill in those gaps will make sense to your readers.

Fonzi

  • Comfort from battles
  • Cheers from beers!
Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #298 on: May 04, 2013, 10:12:23 AM »
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Research Touhou lore. Read the wiki, read the supplemental comics (Strange and Bright Nature Deity, Oriental Sacred Place, Eastern and Little Nature Deity, Silent Sinner in Blue, Forbidden Scrollery, Wild and Horned Hermit), read the dialogue scripts in the games, read the game endings, read the supplemental stories (Cage in Lunatic Runagate, Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red, Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, Symposium of Post-Mysticism, Curiosities of Lotus Asia).

With the exception of Touhou Sangetsusei and CoLA, I've read it all. There are just some things that are hard to get around. And no information provided in the said sources is of any help in certain cases.

Joveus Molai

  • Bear the Word, and the Word will bear you.
  • *
Re: Aya's Writing Workshop - Bring us your story ideas and outlines!
« Reply #299 on: May 04, 2013, 12:10:14 PM »
If the canon has nothing to say about the matter, then it sounds to me that you've simply got more room to work with. If you're as familiar with canon as you say you are, then honestly any decent explanation you come up with for yourself will probably work--if the thing that nerfs Reimu makes sense to you, then it'll probably make sense to us.

I know the above sounds vague and unhelpful, but you may be worrying too much about the details here. If you're familiar with the canon, then you ought to have an innate sense of what sort of canon-gap filling things will "feel" right and what won't. As long as you don't directly contradict something glaring in the canon, it should be fine.

Some ideas for how to nerf Reimu:

The previous stuff I mentioned (Reimu's external power source is disrupted; the Hakurei god(s) curse her for her chronic impiety; Yukari's gap shenanigans) would work for me if I were reading (though Yukari's gap shenanigans might be bit of a cop out).

Instead of nerfing her directly, you could instead make it so that her god-mode ability is rendered meaningless, or otherwise less effective. For example, she might be invulnerable to anything while she's floating, but what if you take away her offensive options? Have someone steal her Yin Yang Orbs, have her lose her sealing amulets and her needles. Taking hostages could also work; Reimu is invincible, sure, but what about, say...Marisa? Or the Human Village? They certainly can't just float away from dangerous stuff.  Neutralizing Reimu before she can activate her powers is also a possibility; unless she's got her god-mode powers on constantly, an ambush or a sniper could probably hurt her before she becomes invincible.

A youkai (or whatever) trying to create an incident could also mislead Reimu to by herself time--Reimu's strong intuition would probably set her on the right path again before too long, but until then the antagonist could deceive her into being somewhere completely irrelevant. Or perhaps the antagonist's plan won't make itself clear until it's too late.