Yukari was Maribel: An analysis using official sources

[MaronaPossessed]

So much proof that I've gone from possibility to real O_O

[OkashiiKisei]

Perfect Memento states that she could technically reverse time, but it's difficult and the way it's done ends up being that she might as well not have reversed  time at all.

I had a speculation where Maribel met an alternate universe Sakuya on the moon (before Remilia changed Sakuya's fate) which led to Maribel's ultimate time slip, but I have trouble believing this theory is true, because Maribel already met Sakuya earlier, which implies that Sakuya existed even when Yukari didn't. (and yes, I did examine Maribel's and Sakuya's meeting, and all the connotations it implies.  Again, I'll go into that later)

My current wild mass guessing theory is tha Maribel ran into alternate universe kaguya, who has the power to control eternity, and her powers mixed with Maribel's to send Maribel flying back in time.  If you remember the original bamboo story, it had a bad ending where Kaguya goes back to the moon in the end even though she wanted to stay on earth.  Of note is that Yukari's first sightings were 1,200 years ago, and Kaguy's story in the Touhouverse takes place 1,200 years ago as well.  But.... again, this is COMPLETELY speculation.  .This theory too has its own problems, because Yukari doesn't seem to recognize Kaguya in Imperishable Night (she DOES, however, recognize Mokou, which at least confirms she remembers her Mokou meeting as Maribel.  ... er, well, at least, it implies it.  Again, I'll go into that later).  Alright, it's time for me to get back on topic, now.

I promised I'd go more into Keine and Sakuya in regards to Yukari, so here we go.  I'll start with Keine.  Stay tuned while I write it up!  ...yea.

Well, the crossbreeding and genetics thing was merely a joke....

But Toyohime's border powers do explain her incredible power. But how can the borders of Earth and Moon (and the borders of dead moon and living moon) be as influential as Yukari's control over every boundary? Toyohime could completely counter it. Although, Toyohime seems to have a greater skill in her power. Yukari has a hard time to replicate the Hakurei Border, yet Toyohime makes all the air and water on the planet vanish without breaking a sweat. I severely underestimated Toyohime.....

[Chaore]

I severely underestimated Toyohime.....

Rule of thumb involving Zun lunarians.

Anything on the moon is vastly more powerful than their earth counterpart. Always.

This is partly why I detest SSIB. It makes even those who don't even -do- anything seem worse.

[OkashiiKisei]

Rule of thumb involving Zun lunarians.

Anything on the moon is vastly more powerful than their earth counterpart. Always.

This is partly why I detest SSIB. It makes even those who don't even -do- anything seem worse.

Yeah, from what I heard all the Lunarians are huge Mary Sues, far better at anything at what we do on Earth, and rubbing it in our faces. There is a reason why Lunarian is my least favorite race in Touhou...
Seriously, almost every Touhou race has atleast ONE weakness or something that balances them out, but the Lunarians are snobby invincible pricks. Only ones who could face them in an even match are Shikieiki, Shinki and Dragon God (possibly Yuuka. She'd bite Toyohime's arm off before she could use her fan). They are said to be just 'ageless humans'. Last time I checked, humans weren't that powerful compared to other races. And here these pricks can only be defeated by real Gods....

[Tengukami]

Oh but they do have a weakness. A few, actually.

[OkashiiKisei]

Oh but they do have a weakness. A few, actually.

Thank Shinki....

[Tiamat]

Yukari must hate Lunarians too, considering that she goes through a ton of things just to steal a bottle of sake from them and tick them off.

When someone devises a ridiculously complex Xanatos Gambit for the sole purpose of annoying you, that someone probably hates you.  A lot.

Anyways,

here you are.

Thanks!


Yukari and Keine

I was kinda hoping to save this one for later, because it requires delving into just how messed up Maribel became after she turned into Yukari.  Still, I've already touched upon Maribel's/Yukari's... mental issues that are pretty apparent by the present day, so I might as well get this one over with while someone is bringing up Keine.

The last thing Renko told Maribel in Changeability was to change dream to reality.  Unfortunately, the translation here is a bit rough.  Renko either is telling Maribel that they should find the dream world and make it into a place where kids can smile, or that they should make the dream world real by finding it (either way, finding it is one of the keys, since she basically said earlier "I have lots of clues to go find another world.  It's the items you gave me from your dreams!"

From this, after Maribel would become Yukari, she'd either decide that she should make Gensokyo's reality into her own in order to be able to change it from a bad dream to a good dream (her other goal, which she states in Changeability), or somewhere along the line she just snapped and forgot the original meaning of Renko's statement and decided "It's my dream, so when I make it to reality, it should be made into MY reality".

Right now, I'm leaning towards the first interpretation slightly, but either way, the end result is the same.  Maribel would want to take control of Gensokyo's reality.  Now, I imagine originally she probably didn't want to literally take control of it in such a brutal fashion that Yukari/Maribel ended up doing, but originally she didn't have the powers which reached god-like status, either.

Although the rough translation makes it hard for me to fully interpret Renko's statements, and we also never get to see Maribel's reaction, we do know one thing for certain.  Whether it was right after she decided to make her dream into reality, or whether it was because of her attaining god-like powers, Maribel appears to have developed "A God Am I" complex as early as when she decided to name herself Yukari Yakumo.

We have the closest thing to official confirmation of the meaning behind her name that we'll ever get in Curiousities of Lotus Asia Chapter 25, when Rinnosuke uses his special ability to discover the meaning of Yukari's name.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_25

One meaning means borders (duh), and another means "night that hides from the sun" (IE, youkai).  It's pretty obvious why Yukari chose a name which held those meanings (she controls borders, and now she's a youkai).  And then there's another meaning Rinnosuke found.

" aside from the primary meaning of borders, Yukari Yakumo's name also has the hidden meaning of 'A strong fortress to keep the gods trapped inside'"

It also means "a great many"  Not only that, the "many" refers to the stars in the name, and because the stars are the ones which hide from Amaterasu, they likely refer to youkai.

" "To answer that, all you need to do is gaze up at the sky on a moonlit night like this. Isn't it obvious why the word for the night came to mean 'a great many'?""

(it also means "eight", and Yukari often wears ribbons in the form of an eight.  Maribel has worn such a ribbon in one of her official arts, too)

(in some ways, Yukari's name is also a tribute to Renko, since Rinnosuke at the end states the name is heavily based on numbers and Renko's specialty was numbers)

...back on topic, which is Yukari's developing god complex.  Well, at least in my opinion, once you start naming yourself "Fortress to seal the gods and the many", you're probably in need of a psychologist.

Of course, if anyone suggested this to Maribel, she'd just reply "I AM a psychologist."  (Changeability states her major was Relativity Psychology)

At any rate, the end result is a nutjob that wants to claim Gensokyo as her reality.



With that, we can move on to Keine.

First off, let's start with the most obvious part.

Keine's history powers don't work on Yukari.  This is officially confirmed 100% beyond a doubt here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Imperishable_Night:_Boundary_Team%27s_Scenario_1

Keine: "Humans never settled here in the first place."
All I did was make it look that way.
I'll protect the humans from this ill-omened night.

Yukari:  Hey, you know.
I do see the humans as usual though.
This little trick of yours isn't useful at all.

Keine:  ! What exactly are you two?

Reimu:  Don't worry. It's invisible enough to me.

Keine:  Uu. Your pity isn't helping.


Keine's ability to hide or devour or whatever to history clearly doesn't work on Yukari.  The question is, WHY?  As we've gone over, Yukari's border powers don't appear to be able to control time.

Before we can understand why Keine's powers don't work on Yukari, we need to analyze exactly what Keine's powers are.  In Imperishable Night, she says she hid the history, but that's pretty vague.  And how does that work, anyways?  How does one "hide" history?  Akyu explains it in Perfect Memento:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Keine_Kamishirasawa

The history of Gensokyo is that which is created by her (*2).
Speaking of history, things do not become history merely by happening.
Things do not become history unless they are made history by someone's hands.
She can fabricate history that didn't happen, or conversely, erase from history incidents which actually did happen.
History is reality, seen from a single point of view.
2: Her powers have no effect on the histories passed down by the Hieda family. Thus, over time it becomes not her history, but ours.


Now, the key word here is REALITY.  When Keine changes history, she changes reality, albeit "seen from a single point of view" (which means the humans don't realize she's erasing their history and can act as normal, but Reimu can't see them.  And yet, Yukari is immune to this and can see the humans as normal)

Furthermore, as stated in the footnote, the true key to controlling Gensokyo's history (and thus Gensokyo's reality) is the Hieda family, not Keine.  Over time, the history that Keine creates (while a were-hetaku) becomes owned by the Hieda family instead, and at that point, it's no longer Keine's.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Memorizable_Gensokyo

And look who's dropping by to change the Hieda family's history.  Why, it's our very own Miss god-complex "I will change my dream into my reality" Yukari Yakumo, herself.

(short summary of the comic:  Yukari drops by Akyu's house to edit the final draft of Perfect Memento in order to make it "match reality".)

"After all, I represent Gensokyo's reality.  It wouldn't do for a memory not to match reality." ~Yukari to Akyu about why she should be allowed to edit Perfect Memento

Also, in Memorizable Gensokyo, Yukari implies she's been doing this since before Akyu's time, too, albeit she might have had to do it in secret before.

"In that sense, I suppose this is our first meeting, isn't it?" ~Yukari to Akyu, Memorizable Gensokyo

The way she said this ("In that sense") implies Yukari's met Akyu's previous incarnations, which thus implies Yukari's been editting the Gensokyo Chronicles ever since they were created in the first place (we know for sure from Yukari's article that Akyu's very first reincarnation ran into Yukari even before Yukari had a name)

And yes, Perfect Memento definately has Yukari's lies.  I'll go into the lies that Yukari put into Perfect Memento later.  It's pretty neat.  But fortunately, Akyu isn't stupid.  She states in Yukari's section that she doesn't trust Yukari, and she's marked everything that she probably got from Yukari as just a possibility (or at least, most of the things she got from Yukari that I can tell).  However, in the end, Yukari's edits still made it into the final edition, even if with disclaimers.  And people tend to believe things even when those things are disclaimed in my experience ("I read it on the internet, so it must be true!").  At least, that's the logic I'm using, but even if I'm wrong, one thing is for sure. Yukari owns the Gensokyo Chronicles, and thus owns Gensokyo's history and reality.



So in short, it can be summed up like this:

Keine's ability works because she owns Gensokyo's history.

History is reality, shown by a single point of view.  Thus by owning history, she can also own your reality, and change the reality from your point of view.

However, eventually the Hieda family owns Keine's history instead.  Their ownership supercedes Keine's in this regards.

Yukari edits the final drafts of the Hieda family's history articles.  Despite Hieda being wary of trusting Yukari, these edits make it in (even if with Hieda's disclaimers).

Thus by the very end of things, the owner of Gensokyo's history (and Gensokyo's reality, which is her goal) is Yukari.

End result:  Keine's abilities thus don't work on Yukari.

Super short version:

Yukari to Keine:  Your powers to change Gensokyo's reality mean nothing to me.  Gensokyo's reality is MY reality.  Now, bitch, get out of the way!

(note:  The above quote comes from no official sources   ...well, besides the last sentence that I stole from Marisa's moment of complete win)


As an aside and as I've pointed out before, in Imperishable Night, Yukari makes it a point to be really mean to Keine for being a were-beast, and then indicates she hates Keine's human face (Something is probably lost in the translation, but Yukari is clearly getting very insulting to Keine and it's mean enough that it makes Keine attack her).  This pet peeve of Yukari's likely stems from when she got attacked by a beast youkai while she was Maribel, and Maribel just couldn't forget how the beast had a human face.



I also promised I'd go into Sakuya's relationship to Yukari as well, didn't I?  Alright, it's a little out of order, but that's okay.  I'll do that for my next post.

[Alfred F. Jones]

Oh but they do have a weakness. A few, actually.

Seriously, Inaba of the Moon/Earth taught us that as hax as Yoriyori is, she stands no chance against a simple hole in the ground covered with leaves. That was awesome of Tewi to do.

Toyotoyo, though? SPEED. Best be hopin' her fan isn't pointed at you, or :flamingv:

EDIT: Agh ninja'd by another wall of text D:

[Tengukami]

Lunarians consider chocolate to be a pricleless treasure. They can be easily persuaded with it.

Also, I think being Immortal is more of a curse than a blessing. With an eternity to go and see and do things, you would become bored very fast. Not to mention watching mortals you care for die, generation after generation. Not to mention the whole separation from reality thing.

The ingredients of the Hourai Elixir are known only by Eirin Yagokoro, whose name points her out to be the "Mind of God", an omniscient being. Because she made the Hourai Elixir the true elixir of immortality, she probably also made it irreversible, making its effects perfectly permanent. In her confrontation with Mokou, Alice points out that the soul is made invincible. This, along with Yuyuko's and Yukari's scenario in Imperishable Night, makes it seem that the Hourai Elixir itself isn't a power that keeps one immortal, but makes one an existence completely independent of even the concept of reality, thus making one not subject to the bounds of life, death, or even manipulation, although the pain of injuries can still be felt.

So on top of everything else, you become a fictional being separated from reality, but you can still feel physical pain. Forever.

Somehow, this doesn't sound like it would be a very happy life.

[Tengukami]

With that, we can move on to Keine.

First off, let's start with the most obvious part.

Keine's history powers don't work on Yukari.  This is officially confirmed 100% beyond a doubt here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Imperishable_Night:_Boundary_Team%27s_Scenario_1

Keine: "Humans never settled here in the first place."
All I did was make it look that way.
I'll protect the humans from this ill-omened night.

Yukari:  Hey, you know.
I do see the humans as usual though.
This little trick of yours isn't useful at all.

Keine:  ! What exactly are you two?

Reimu:  Don't worry. It's invisible enough to me.

Keine:  Uu. Your pity isn't helping.

Heh. For as many times as I've seen this dialogue, I was just playing this game earlier this evening for the hell of it and this very dialogue struck me for the first time. As I was playing a game, I didn't have time to think about what made it remarkable, but I agree with this sentiment. Yukari is insanely powerful.

[Chaore]

Seriously, Inaba of the Moon/Earth taught us that as hax as Yoriyori is, she stands no chance against a simple hole in the ground covered with leaves. That was awesome of Tewi to do.

9.8 m/s², more than enough to hold down anything that moves.

Gravity is a badass, and it is a shame that with all the worfing the series gives it (Everyone flies, after all) his only proper knock out is stolen by Tewi. God damnit Tewi.

[Furienify]

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_21

Just wondering if you found anything in that, since all most people bother with is Chapter 25.

[Tiamat]

Tewi's funny as heck in Inaba of the Moon and Earth, but there's this really creepy scene in Silent Sinner in Blue where she remarks that she's glad she decided to team up with Eirin and Kaguya's group and has this incredibly sinister look on her face (to the point where Eirin, Kaguya, and Reisen are kinda freaked out.  Kaguya ends up laughing at the end though, but Reisen and Eirin are still kinda scared).

Wild Speculation follows as such:

Considering that Silent Sinner in Blue features Gensokyo's power struggle (mentioned in Perfect Memento) rather in depth (the normal youkai vs the vampires vs the mountain youkai), the implication is that Tewi decided to betray the normal youkai in order to join the earth Lunarians (well, "betray" is a strong word.  We can say she "left" or "abandoned" the other youkai in order to join the Lunarians)

Combine that with the fact that she's both a leader (of the earth rabbits) and more than 1,200 years old like Yukari (Perfect Memento states she's been around before the first Gensokyo Chronicle) and thus was possibly one of the youkai sages (like Yukari), that would basically mean she's a Youkai sage who decided to throw her lot in with the lunarians because she thought they were stronger.  Harsh.  More wild speculation takes this further and makes one wonder if she left the youkai because she either hates Yukari or realized Yukari's true schemes (the latter being kinda likely, since Tewi is actually very smart)

EDIT:  Well, Cage in Lunatic Runegate basically states she's managed to reach a higher enlightenment, and also teamed up with the lunarians in order to make rabbits stronger.

...yea, I'm going off topic again. I'd better get back to that Sakuya article
.......

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Curiosities_of_Lotus_Asia:_Chapter_21

Just wondering if you found anything in that, since all most people bother with is Chapter 25.

Thanks.  Yes, I did see that and was going to get around to it eventually, but there are lots of things to get around to.

What we know about this is that Yukari appears to have devised it before the moon invasion (Rinnosuke thinks it was done while the Youkai were studying in preparation for the moon invasion) but after Yukari decided to name herself Yukari (duh.  She signs off with her  Youkai name)

Personally, I think this is either what Yukari did to catapult her up the ranks of youkai and become one of the youkai sages (Rinnosuke throughout that chapter heavily emphasizes how dear the stars and the moon were to the youkai), or that she did it just because she misses Renko (who was constantly staring at the stars and the moon in order to get the time and coordinates).  Or maybe a combination of the two.

Off-topic:  I like how that chapter explains why Marisa's spell cards usually have stars and comets in them.

[Tiamat]

Sadly enough, this post is a bit more speculatory than I'd like.  And it's not particularly related to Maribel = Yukari either.  Still, I suppose I should touch on it while it's been brought up.

Quick recap from earlier in the thread:  In several games, Yukari complains "I don't have time for this."  Toyohime stresses the time of the trap set for Yukari (1,000 years) in Silent Sinner in Blue.  And finally, continuing with the Yukari is Maribel theme, time is the likely factor that keeps Renko separated from Maribel's new world (IE, Yukari can't travel in time to go get Renko, who's probably still in the future while Yukari is in the past.  By the way, for that guy who posted all those Renko theories, sorry about not replying to that.  Been... busy).

The implication is that despite her near god-like powers, time is a major limitation (and thus a potential weakness).

Now, logically speaking then, Sakuya with her control over time might be one of Yukari's major weakness.  Now, by the time I've come to this realization about time being Yukari's weakness, I've already analyzed the majority of Yukari's and Sakuya's conversations for other reasons (Maribel & Sakuya).  I didn't really recall any incident where the storyline states Sakuya conquered Yukari via time powers.  But then I remembered that there is still one incident that the storyline's never been able to go to in depth.

That's the "Vampire Incident."

I should remind you that this incident has only ever been mentioned briefly in Perfect Memento spanning across 3 different sections in a very confusing way.  That's why this post is mostly speculative.  I've analyzed the vampire incident for the most part, but I'll save that analysis for if I ever make a Scarlet Devil Mansion post.  For now, here's the abridged conclusion I came to:

Remilia enters Gensokyo with Sakuya and Patchouli (we can confirm those two, at least), amasses a large number of subordinates (Mei Ling might have been one of them.  Especially if you think she's Orange), goes on a rampage (including attacking humans), and eventually youkai (of whom Yukari is one of the leaders) and probably Reimu stop them.  After that, a contract is formed which prohibits certain actions (apparently for both vampires and other youkai, which would eventually lead to a second contract for the spell card rules).  The parts of the contract that weren't changed into the spell card rules (assuming I read it right) are still in effect, today.  They basically state that the vampires will not attack Gensokyo's humans, and in return the youkai will provide them with humans from the outside world (Vampires are probably one of the few youkai that NEED to eat humans to survive.  For most youkai, humans are just a delicacy)

That contract has several "unfortunate implications" which I'll talk about later, although some people have touched upon it on this forum before.

The important thing here is that Sakuya was with Remilia when Remilia went on a rampage.  Now think about this:

Why didn't Yukari just DESTROY the vampires with her crazy hax border powers?  Well, okay, we can say that Yukari isn't THAT vicious.  But that still leaves one other question.

Why did the youkai have to go so far as to establish a devil's contract with them in order to stop them from attacking Gensokyo's humans again?  Sure, the youkai did beat the vampires, but after that, why was a devil's contract needed instead of just keeping the vampires in line with brute force?

Remember, this was before the spell card rules were established, which meant Yukari was allowed to use the full extent of her powers.  Yet something either counteracted them, or she simply didn't use her full powers, possibly because she was worried about something (or you can combine the two and say she didn't use her powers because she was worried about something counteracting them).

And that's pretty much where Sakuya comes in.  With her time powers, she might conceivably have been able to counteract Yukari.  That would explain a lot, really.

Of note is that Yukari (but not Maribel!  Again, analysis later) never met Sakuya before Perfect Cherry Blossom (PCB's Extra Stage dialogue), which is why I lean towards the theory that Yukari didn't use her powers in this battle because she was worried about them being counteracted by Sakuya, as opposed to Sakuya ACTUALLY counteracting them.

Yukari does state to Sakuya in Perfect Cherry Blossom, "I've always wanted to meet someone famous like you.", which might be a reference to all the things Yukari heard about Remilia's time-warp commander during the Vampire Incident.  But this could also just be a joke lost in the translation.

At any rate, what we have here is the possibility that Yukari didn't use her full powers because she was worried this time-stopper human she heard about might counteract them.  This is furthered by the fact that Yukari is likely hesitant to attack a human in the first place (Akyu basically states there are no documented cases of her ever attacking a human in Perfect Memento)

Yukari vs Time-stopping Human that Yukari  isn't willing to attack in the first place?  Yea.

This would explain why they needed a devil's contract (which can't be betrayed).  If they just settled on a regular agreement, Remilia might someday go on another rampage and kill more humans.  And Yukari might not be able to stop it thanks to Sakuya being around.  And that would be bad.  Thus, the devil's contract.



Of course, that's all just theory and speculation, thanks to the fact that we never do get to see the Vampire Incident in its entirety.  But it's an interesting thing to think about.

Remilia's fate powers might have been able to counteract Yukari too, but we know very little about it.  Akyu isn't sure if Remilia can manually control it.  Remilia claims to Aya that she can.  Flandre claims to Aya that Remilia's lying and can't.  So... whatever.

[Tiamat]

Anyways, there's still the possibility that Maribel is a relative. If Yukari really wanted to limit people's knowledge of the outside world, she would have to deal with the humans that come from the outside, who're often talked to by villagers. Plus, she would have to silence Sanae, and wouldn't have explained to Kourin what a Game Boy was, in fact.

The only remotely-confirmed (remotely) thing Yukari wants to limit about the outside world is the Hakurei shrine.  She's fine with you knowing what a gameboy is (although she's going to keep it for herself, apparently), and she doesn't mind everyone learning how to play soccer (throw-away line in Perfect Memento which is probably just ZUN giving a shout out, but whatever)

My thoughts? Zun may like this inconclusiveness. Or he may not be much consistent, maybe sometimes making stuff on a whim (Ichirin, Byakuren).

ZUN does both.  UFO was obviously thought up on a whim (all of its characters and plots are entirely new with no prior foreshadowing by anything.  Well, except maybe Kogasa, as Perfect Memento does go into detail about Tsukogomis.  But then again, Medicine is pretty much one of those already, too), but many aspects of Scarlet Weather Rhapsody (the dragon's weather forecast device as well as heaven being full... which Yukari discovers is a lie) were telegraphed in advance by Perfect Memento.  Silent Sinner in Blue was also foreshadowed in advance by Bohemian Archive and by Perfect Memento.  And Mountain of Faith has a little prior set up (Kappa have an article in Perfect Memento).  Currently, the most obvious foreshadowing going on is the mountain youkai's disturbingly fast rise in power.  And ZUN is definately using Kanako/Suwako/Sanae to build up to something (Kanako's profile ends with her deciding that she's going to use the Hakurei Shrine to gather ALL of Gensokyo's faith, and thaclearly happened after MoF's ending since the Tengu and Kappa are already worshipping her by then.  And then you get to things like Utsuho (whom Yukari tells her that her power goes too far) and Suwako and Sanae in Hisoutenko, and ZUN apparently even got the writer of Inaba of the Moon and Earth to throw in a foreshadowing omment that the tengu and kappa were possibly becomming too powerful thanks to Suwako and Kanako, etc etc. (well, it might have been put in there per ZUN's suggestion/request/whatever)

About Yukari filling the role of a god, it's known that she's not omnipotent, and also not omniscient (or else, she would've known enough about the geysers and earth spirits during SA, and wouldn't have to send Reimu down there. And she could very well have stopped Tenshi, before she destroyed the shrine for the first time during SWR. And.. -- in case Yukari just wanted Reimu and others to know/meet said characters and/or make concessions to them, letting them attain a certain degree of their objectives, be them interests or entertainment.. or ZUN didn't intended Yukari to be omniscient, because the stories are really meant to justify the game's events -- Yukari didn't knew exactly what was the treasure that Yuyuko had stolen in the Lunar Capital. Among other things.)

Nah, Yukari's not a LITERAL god.  In some ways, symbollically, she kinda is though, since she's so tied to how today's Gensokyo is (a land of illusion thanks to her doing, although the original barrier wasn't her's).  But only in some ways.  There is some evidence that she's trying to become Gensokyo's actual god now, though, as I've mentioned before.

I disagree that Yukari just manipulates the miko, because they're a required element on the human vs. youkai balance. Without that element, there would be no one (outside of the incident-solving "imitators") to defend the humans, and that would mean that youkai would either have to fight themselves, to preserve their powers (since if they can't attack regular humans without killing them, outside of spellcard battles, their food-supply or source of powers would be depleted sooner or later. Akyu states that youkai do defend the human villages against other youkai.). Sure, youkai could fight themselves in spellcard battles, but then, there would be no one to defend humans' interests if/when needed. (though Yukari did bug Reimu to help youkai in IN and SA, for example)

Just because she's a required element doesn't mean Yukari isn't manipulating her.  Yukari is fully capable of both manipulating the miko AND defending humans at the same time.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.  In fact, defending the humans from youkai is one of Maribel's main goals in the first place, and if anything manipulating the miko was probably one of the main things Yukari did to accomplish that.  Yukari couldn't defend humans from youkai directly, because all indications are she doesn't want the youkai to realize she's trying to find ways to protect humans from them.  It's a moot point now that Yukari's ultimate goal came to realization with the passage of the spell card rules, anyways.

Reimu nowadays even knows Yukari's using her (Rinnosuke tells her as such in CoLA 25), but goes along with it anyways because there's no point to resisting (it's implied this is both due to how Yukari's too powerful anyways, and because Yukari usually acts with Gensokyo's best interests in mind, anyways.  ZUN appears to be using Sanae and Suwako as a foil to this, since Sanae outright attacks Suwako due to her schemes, and tries to make it clear to Suwako in one of her win quotes that she's not going to let Suwako get away with things.  Reimu, meanwhile, just takes an attitude of "Whatever." and follows Yukari's orders.

Well, the spellcard rules were made so that youkai and humans could keep fighting each other, but without lethal outcomes. This was necessary so that the youkai's powers didn't fade with time, from lack of usage of their abilities. If they were to be weakened by that, they could be overpowered by humans, and/or powerful outsiders (I think I've said somewhere else, that MoF was a nice, subtle example -- even though Kanako did care about the "power balance" of the youkai at the top of the mountain, and those anywhere else, hence why she wanted to overtake the Hakurei Shrine. Speaking of not-so subtle examples, UFO was another one, where Byakuren was a direct comparison subject with the old-time Gensokyo, but perhaps not limited to that region. Byakuren is such an old relic :p).

The original Vampire Incident was actually the first example.  Akyu even mentions that at the time, most of the youkai were weak (from being out of practice), which was a lot in Remilia's favor when she decided to go rampaging around.

First off, I'm sad I'm not the 'Wall of Text' King of MotK anymore. You deserve it, Tiamat. *hands over crown*

Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree with you Tiamat. Brilliant. Just brilliant. It is absolutely flawless. I fully believe Maribel is Yukari now. I fully support your statement.

But who is to say Renko didn't come with Maribel after all? Who is to say Maribel didn't take Renko with her and turned her into the very first Hakurei Shrine Maiden? Or maybe Renko got stuck on the Lunar Capital after Maribel got automatically whisked away to Gensokyo (assuming it happened immediately there after). Renko may have taken Hourai Elixir there, and is now searching for Maribel (or maybe the current ruler of the Lunar Capital). Oh, so much possibilities. If Renko truly is in the Lunar Capital, it would make a perfect tie-in for the next Touhou game. A Touhou game starring Yukari, with the final boss being this Lunar Renko. This would prove Yukari=Maribel.

All of that can possibly happen.  It's all speculation though, and it's difficult to speculate exactly what will come next when it comes to Touhou things.  At any rate, the only things we know for sure after that moon trip is that Yukari is in Gensokyo and Renko is not.  What did happen on the moon?  It's a giant mystery.  It's one I do believe ZUN might get around to someday (especially if he ever gets to make another Silent Sinner in Blue-esque manga), although he probably has a ton of other Touhou story branches to attend to at the moment.  I don't expect it to ever show up in the games, though.  ZUN's already stated he prefers that the game plotlines wrap up within themselves, and Maribel/Renko are primarily an out-of-game thing (and possibly too serious for the games.  ZUN usually keeps the more serious stuff to the written works (game manuals count as written works, apparently.  Some of the UFO character profiles almost reach tear-jerker status.)

One thing's for sure.  Yukari dislikes Lunarians.  She's pretty darn cold to them in the fighting games (well, to Reisen, at least) and like I said, if someone's willing to pull off a ridiculously elaborate and complex plan just to steal a bottle of sake from you, they probably really REALLY don't like you.

The fact that she chose to use the lunarians as the youkai's target for the first Geno Lunar war was pretty mean, too, although it's possible she had no other option when it came to finding someone who could kick the youkais' butts.

[E-Nazrin]

So now it's "Gensokyo politics and plot," not "Maribel is Yukari?"

I still don't buy that part entirely, though I'll admit I mostly skimmed things here. You've revealed a lot more evidence of there being an intentional strong connection between the two than I thought there were (though I never really looked), but I'm not seeing any necessarily compelling evidence for actually being the same person. Especially the version with a necessary time jump; there are other plausible alternatives.

DISCLAIMER: Much of this is bullshitting. I haven't read much of anything, but I need to poke a few holes into the theory to make sure it holds up to my satisfaction, at least on this detail.

Let me claw at the timejump requirement first: This seems to be presumed largely on the basis of "Hearn->Yakumo," which isn't strictly necessary even if Yukari and Maribel ARE the same person; it's just as possible to go the other way. The connection of names doesn't have to be identical, and necessitating time travel of this sort when there's no evidence if it being done with that character's powers is a BIG jump. (On a lesser note, it's worth pointing out that the real Hearn took "Yakumo" as his given name, rather than his family name - while Yukari uses it as her family name instead. Just a homage to Lafcadio, maybe?)

I can think of a few ways that Yukari could become Maribel as well, with a linear timeline. If Yukari had to/chose to leave Gensokyo for an extended period of time, living as a 'foreign' girl going to college in Japan would be an excellent cover story to blend in - she's eternally 17, after all~! The simplest explanation is that Maribel is just Yukari in the future, taking a break from Gensokyo, playing stupid, and trolling a human friend she made in the meantime (or perhaps testing whether she's worthy of being brought into Gensokyo as a friend, as a repeat of what happened with Yukari and Yuyuko) - do any of the written works explicitly show Maribel's thoughts, to ensure that it isn't all an act?

Spoiler:

p.s. Sana hates this interpretation

In a more grimdark context, Yukari could have lost her powers and/or memories in some fashion, perhaps due to Gensokyo collapsing or someone sealing her powers (perhaps even herself): In this case, Maribel's dreams of Gensokyo would be memories, further provoked by seeing the Hakurei Shrine, with the thought of going to the moon and seeing its reflection as the way to get there reawakening her powers in full(?) at the end of Changability of Strange Dream.

This is all assuming that Maribel and Yukari remain the same person. If you remove that requirement, then there are more possibilities that I think still fit. For example, you can take apart what 'person' implies there, and investigate whether Yukari and Maribel are the same consciousness even if they aren't the same body - the two could be spiritually/magically connected in some fashion, rather than being exactly the same person. One theory I've heard sometimes is that Maribel is Yukari's consciousness gone to a separate body in the outside world, which operates while Yukari is physically asleep (and perhaps vice-versa), maybe serving as one of Yukari's ways of keeping track of the outer world, for whatever goals she has there. Heck, I don't know how much is really known about Maribel's past - Yukari may have made her explicitly for this purpose. This makes for possible explanation for why Yukari sleeps so much and when (more social obligations for Maribel than Yukari during the daytime, after all) - and if Yukari is the dominant 'side' of the consciousness, it would explain why 'Maribel' is more confused about what goes on while relying on Yukari's 'sleeping' consciousness.

Alternatively, Maribel may be Yukari's reincarnation of some fashion after dying somewhere along the line; perhaps a more thorough reincarnation than people 'normally' get, as a final taunting circumvention of the Yama (which she apparently fears based on another of the written works) and a way to return her to power even if she gets killed. This leads to the same line of logic as if Yukari had lost her powers without dying; just need to reawaken those memories to get back up to speed.

And of course, there's other ways that Yukari could be closely connected to Maribel without actually being 'the same person' - I think Renko's GPS abilities are left unexplained, so Maribel's border detection may also be benign or coincidental; only aggravated by the presence of (the dead spirit of, if applicable) a more powerful user of similar powers in the region, whose memories start interfering with her own thoughts due to this spiritual overlap. Heck, the interference might be consciously intentional on Yukari's part - she trained Ran to take care of maintaining the inside borders of Gensokyo for her, so maybe she's trying to train Maribel to maintain the outer borders? Or to reveal Gensokyo to the world? Or she failed in a gambit trying to do the former and actually accomplishing the latter? Who the hell knows what goes through Sukima's head?

If that's too big a coincidence, then there's another theory I buy into more that works a bit better: Maribel may be Yukari's descendant, inheriting a small fraction of that power over borders, which remained largely benign until brushing up against the presence of a master at it upon moving (back) to Japan and leading to the same spiritual overlap. I wouldn't put it past Yukari to leave a child of hers in Europe for some Hearn sap to raise - especially if keeping it in Gensokyo would run major risks of the child being used against her politically. (Poor Chen!) Since Gensokyo is probably safer now, she might have been trying to bring her (grandⁿ)daughter back into Gensokyo and the magical realms through subtle means, trying to work around Renko's presence. Whether it was a good idea to inspire Mary to make a third Lunar Invasion as her introduction is a matter of debate.

Now to ruin my arguments by taking a moment to throw away common sense and suggest ways to shoehorn in the Hearn->Yakumo transition without Yukari and Maribel being the same person: Let's flip my last suggestion on its head and say that Maribel Hearn later married into the name Maribel Yakumo, and had a daughter by the name of Yukari. Little Yukari learned most of her interests from Mama Mary and Auntie Renko, and later ended up in a time mishap sending her back several thousand years, where she developed into an enormously powerful youkai based off of her mother's abilities. After finally re-approaching her own birth date, Yukari interferes with Mom and Auntie to make sure that things go as they did in the first instance of the time loop, and life continues.

There's some fun stuff here, but unfortunately I'm not quite up to reading through all of it and I'm not sure I buy some of the conclusions.

[Garlyle]

Now to ruin my arguments by taking a moment to throw away common sense and suggest ways to shoehorn in the Hearn->Yakumo transition without Yukari and Maribel being the same person: Let's flip my last suggestion on its head and say that Maribel Hearn later married into the name Maribel Yakumo, and had a daughter by the name of Yukari. Little Yukari learned most of her interests from Mama Mary and Auntie Renko, and later ended up in a time mishap sending her back several thousand years, where she developed into an enormously powerful youkai based off of her mother's abilities. After finally re-approaching her own birth date, Yukari interferes with Mom and Auntie to make sure that things go as they did in the first instance of the time loop, and life continues.

Screw everything else, this is crazyawesome enough that I love it.

[Tiamat]

So now it's "Gensokyo politics and plot," not "Maribel is Yukari?"

The topic will involve politics because politics were a part of Yukari's actions.  Yukari's actions were taken due to her goal and motivations.  Maribel becoming Yukari explains Yukari's motivations.

Thus politics must be discussed because they involve Yukari's (and thus Maribel's) goals and motivations.

 I'll put up a timeline later, but suffice to say that Yukari's played the chessmaster all in the name of accomplishing Maribel's goal for Gensokyo.  It just involved a ton of deceit and jumping off the slippery slope in order to accomplish it (in the end the final move that managed to change Gensokyo into a good dream and accomplish Maribel's goal involved figuratively and almost literally selling her soul to the devil.  I'll get into that later)

I still don't buy that part entirely, though I'll admit I mostly skimmed things here. You've revealed a lot more evidence of there being an intentional strong connection between the two than I thought there were (though I never really looked), but I'm not seeing any necessarily compelling evidence for actually being the same person. Especially the version with a necessary time jump; there are other plausible alternatives.

There are alternatives to everything when dealing with a puzzle where a few pieces haven't been fully defined.  A time slip (we'll use time-slip, since that's the term ZUN had Maribel used) is the only alternative that's actually been brought up in the storyline though.  If only one method's been mentioned in the storyline, there's a decent chance that's the method that was used, as opposed to speculatory methods that you or I make up on the spot.  This isn't a 100% certainty by far, of course, but it's the most likely one.

Maribel mentions the time-slip here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Memorandum

As I've stated before, you can also see that the time-slip appears to be getting worse.  Sadly, we don't know when the first dream (the festival) happened in Gensokyo, but we do know for a fact that the Scarlet Devil Mansion came to Gensokyo in Reimu's lifetime (Perfect Memento's Vampire Incident), and we also know that Maribel's Bamboo Forest Dream sent her to a time that was several hundred years ago (Akyu states her memo was found several hundred years ago in Perfect Memento)

So we don't know the time of Maribel's first dream, but we do know that Maribel's second dream sent her to a time that was near the present day (within Reimu's lifetime), and her third dream sent her to a time "several hundred years ago".

Again, there are always millions of possibilities for anything.  But if the author only ever mentions one in the story (time-slip), that one is usually your best bet.  Anything else can only be categorized as "Wild Mass Guessing".

DISCLAIMER: Much of this is bullshitting. I haven't read much of anything, but I need to poke a few holes into the theory to make sure it holds up to my satisfaction, at least on this detail.

Let me claw at the timejump requirement first: This seems to be presumed largely on the basis of "Hearn->Yakumo," which isn't strictly necessary even if Yukari and Maribel ARE the same person; it's just as possible to go the other way. The connection of names doesn't have to be identical, and necessitating time travel of this sort when there's no evidence if it being done with that character's powers is a BIG jump. (On a lesser note, it's worth pointing out that the real Hearn took "Yakumo" as his given name, rather than his family name - while Yukari uses it as her family name instead. Just a homage to Lafcadio, maybe?)

Well, I imagine ZUN can't really be expected to ever stick to the meaning of a name 100%.  There will, of course, be some deviations.  Maribel is female while Lafcadio is not, for example.  However, even despite that, is that really true?  I mean, does Yukari really use Yakumo as a family name instead of a given one?

We all know that Ran Yakumo isn't Yukari's biological daughter.  Actually, it's MUCH worse than that.  From Yukari's point of view, Ran's just her computer/tool.  Seriously.  Yukari's made this VERY clear in her interview with Aya and there's another snippet in Subteranean Animism that shows this, too (as well as reveals another possible Maribel Yukari clue, but I'll go into that later).  And yes, that viewpoint is very cruel to poor Ran and this fact DISGUSTS Aya, so it's not a normal typical youkai view to take regarding shikigami.  In that respect, one could say Yukari uses Yakumo as a given name instead of a family name too.  Since I doubt she views her computer as a family member.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Article_and_Interview:_Yukari

" Besides, Ran may look like a fox but she's a shikigami. She's not an animal."" ~Yukari to Aya
" The offender's phrases can be explained as followed.
Ran, the fox that was being abused, is not an animal at all but a shikigami.
Shikigami are not animals, but rather merely tools, and the more one uses tools the more love there is. " ~Aya about what Yukari said to her
(And Aya makes it very clear throughout this article that she's sickened by this.  I imagine most people would be.  Like I said, there are reasons why no one likes Yukari)

We never get to see a story from Yukari's point of view that has her talking about Ran.  However, the following private conversation implies she probably wasn't just trolling Aya and does (loosely) view Ran as just a computer (well, it's more complicated than that, but I'm saving that for a later post).

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Subterranean_Animism
" (Hm, I wonder where our cat went off to?
It's such a pain when she just suddenly disappears like that.)
(I wish you'd take care to program your own familiar
properly. Without any bugs.) " ~Yukari apparently talking to Ran while Reimu overhears her on the cellphone orbs

So basically, the name "Ran Yakumo" is a little pet nickname for Yukari's computer, not for Yukari's family member.  But if it helps make Yukari less evil, she says only beating  and abusing her computer because she loves it.  (....that probably doesn't help make her look less evil at all, heh)

I can think of a few ways that Yukari could become Maribel as well, with a linear timeline. If Yukari had to/chose to leave Gensokyo for an extended period of time, living as a 'foreign' girl going to college in Japan would be an excellent cover story to blend in - she's eternally 17, after all~! The simplest explanation is that Maribel is just Yukari in the future, taking a break from Gensokyo, playing stupid, and trolling a human friend she made in the meantime (or perhaps testing whether she's worthy of being brought into Gensokyo as a friend, as a repeat of what happened with Yukari and Yuyuko) - do any of the written works explicitly show Maribel's thoughts, to ensure that it isn't all an act?

Spoiler:

p.s. Sana hates this interpretation

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Memorandum

The above is a memo that Maribel wrote to herself in private.  Thus it gives a pretty clear point of view from her, and shows that she's definately just a girl named Maribel in a strange world, not Yukari.  If you want, you can see something with Yukari's point of view in this ZUN-written story here:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/A_Flower_Blooming_Fragrant_Violet_Every_Sixty_Years

Clearly, Yukari's thought procceses are different from Maribel's.  Maribel's a worried but excited girl lost in a strange world.  Yukari is a spacey wierdo who thinks of humans as "lovable humans with all too short lifetimes".

Now, before you go off arguing that these two different thought processes prove Maribel isn't Yukari, I do need to remind you that Yukari is Maribel after 1,200 years of having powers that reach near god-like status, and despite this, it's revealed in that story that her memory ability is the same as a human's for the most part (IE, it only has a normal lifespan of around 60 years, though she states she can remember things that were more "historic" and out of the ordinary)

In essence, if you one day randomly gained near-god like powers and had them for 1,200 years despite still having the same memory capabilities as always, you'd probably end up as a spacey wierdo that viewed humans as "loveable humans with too-short lifespans", too.

(Suwako's another good example of this.  She was once human and although we never get to see her viewpoint, it's pretty clear she no longer considers herself human at all and she's a complete whacko, too)

Presented theories:

Yukari could have lost her powers.

Maribel is Yukari's consciousness gone to a separate body.

Yukari made Maribel.

Maribel's abilities are coincidental/benign.

Yukari trained Maribel.

Maribel is Yukari's descendant.

Pretty much all of these can be debunked, I think.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Changeability_of_Strange_Dream:_Story

" It doesn't matter to me at all.
By the way, I have a great power. It's because our clan has had a kind of inspiration since ancient times...
I have the ability to see every boundary all over the world, in other words, a border.
Our true scheme is to seek for the gaps of the boundaries and to dive into another world. It's what they call "Spiriting Away", isn't it?" ~Maribel Hearn's NARRATIVE in Changeability (IE, her point of view)

Of note is that Maribel comes from a CLAN of people who see borders.  She's not the only one that sees borders.  She comes from a long line of people who see borders.  Her mother (or father) saw borders, their mother/father saw borders, etc etc etc.  This all comes from a narrative done from Maribel's point of view.  Maribel has a lineage, parents, and a clan goal (of jumping through worlds).

It's implied Maribel has parents in Magical Astronomy, too.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Magical_Astronomy:_Story

"Even though the sun has set and dinner time was approaching, they finally left the caf? after eating the new cake. In this university, students can pay with a student card in any campus shops. The price is collected along with the monthly tuition. It reduces the cost for managing money, avoids crowded cashiers, lets students do shopping easily (because it's their parents who pay the tuition), and the sales grow." ~Magical Astronomy's Narrative

Although it's not 100% certain because it's a narrative from no particular point of view, it's still a narrative in a Maribel story so it does imply that Maribel's one of those students with parents paying her tuition (and food bills).

So let's go down the list:

Yukari could have lost her powers.

Debunked.  Maribel comes from a long line of people who have border-sight powers, and thus has parents and thus can't be an older Yukari.

Maribel is Yukari's consciousness gone to a separate body.

Highly unlikely speculation.  First of all, there's no evidence this is the case because we know Maribel's entire clan has border-sight powers (thus what would Yukari's consciousness give to Maribel that Maribel doesn't have already?).  Maribel's thought processes are completely different from Yukari's (as seen when you compare Flower Blooming to Changeability or to Maribel's memento).  (again, this doesn't disprove Maribel = Yukari because if Maribel is Yukari, then you can't expect her thought process to remain the same after 1,200 years of being an almost-god)

Maribel is also not particularly well-trained in numbers or physics.  She specifically says "That's YOUR speciality, Renko.".  Yukari, however, is a master at numbers and physics, as both stated by Ran when Aya interviews her (and implied to be beyond what any normal human can do) and in Perfect Memento.  In the sentence preceding the numbers sentence, Perfect Memento says Yukari's really smart because she aquired her knowledge over the course of her long life.  This implies Yukari is good at numbers because she dabbled in them over the course of her long life.  End result: Yukari is a master at numbers because she learned it over her long lifetime while Maribel isn't.  This means Maribel must come BEFORE Yukari.

(as I've stated before, I personally think Yukari picked up physics and numbers because she misses Renko.  I'll do a more thorough analysis of that later, but the gist of it is that numbers and physics are worthless to Yukari and she never shows any indication that she LIKES physics and numbers, so the only other reason she would bother learning so much about them is to fill a gaping hole in her life)

Yukari made Maribel.

As stated before, Maribel is confirmed to come from a long line of people with border-sight powers.  Thus Yukari couldn't have made her (at least, not directly)

Maribel's abilities are coincidental/benign.

They aren't coincidental.  She comes from a long line of people with border-sight powers.

They might be benign.  But... that doesn't contradict the theory that Maribel one day becomes Yukari.  If anything, it's almost required for that theory (IE, Maribel's powers are benign but one day fully awaken, and thus Maribel has become Yukari)

Yukari trained Maribel.

Debunked.  She comes from a long line of border-sight people, which explains her ability to see borders.

Maribel is Yukari's descendant

This is the only one that's really not debunked.  However, again, it has no evidence to support it.  When an author states only one method, then that method is probably the method that happened.  ZUN has never brought up a descendant when it comes to Yukari, but he's certainly brought up time-slipping when it comes to Maribel.

Maribel married into the Yakumo family and sent her daughter Yukari back 1,200 years.

Debunked.  Rinnosuke uses his name abilities in Curiousities of Lotus Asia Chapter 25 to discover that Yukari named herself Yukari Yakumo.  Thus no one else (including her mother) could have named her Yukari Yakumo.

[Vicks]

Debunked.  Rinnosuke uses his name abilities in Curiousities of Lotus Asia Chapter 25 to discover that Yukari named herself Yukari Yakumo.  Thus no one else (including her mother) could have named her Yukari Yakumo.

Maybe Maribel named Yukari something else, but for some reason, Yukari decided to change her name? And excellent work on discussing this, it has given me new insight.

[Tiamat]

Yukari's Pet Peeve

As this is a post examining a character's apparent likes and dislikes, it's going to be somewhat speculatory.  At best, the most I can show is that Yukari's dislikes are similar to the dislikes Maribel had (or is implied to have)

Previously, I've already shown in that post about Keine that Yukari dislikes beasts with a human face.  As stated before, Maribel had a good reason to dislike beasts with a human face too, since they were attacking her in her dreams, and the human face was one of the things Maribel noticed, the most.  But what other dislike could Yukari have that matches up with Maribel's?  Well, there was one thing I saw which really got on Yukari's nerves.

It's her hatred of capitalism.  Or rather, oppressive capitalism (there's no indication that Yukari, Maribel, and ZUN are complete socialists.  She just dislikes how harsh capitalism can be)

We'll start with Silent Sinner in Blue, too, when Ran (presumably echoing Yukari's statements) explains why Yukari doesn't care about the Tengu and Kappa (who are mimicking the outside world)


"Don't be ridiculous.  What would be fun about being a wage slave always worried over the little things like they are?" ~Ran Yakumo about Yukari's thoughts on the Tengu and Kappa's mimicking of the outside world

"However, the citizens of the moon don't share that weakness with the outside world."

"They've discovered a method to limitless energy that lets them play every day."

"Miss Yukari went to the moon to try to steal that method."  ~Ran telling Remilia what Yukari hopes to get from the moon



Note:  In the end, it's revealed that Yukari was lying about what she wanted to actually steal from the moon (all she really wanted to do was poke the Watsuki sisters with a stick for the LOLs.  ...it appears Maribel has too much time on her hands now that she's done accomplishing her goal of transforming Gensokyo from a bad dream into a good one).  However, this does show how Yukari views the outside world, and it also reveals something that she thinks everyone else wishes to get, and thus what she herself probably wishes she could get (a limitless energy that would let her play every day and not have to worry about "being a wage slave always worried over the little things")

The gist of it is that Yukari appears to find it dumb how limited people are in a capital society (IE, always having to worry over the little things and never having the time to pay and enjoy themselves).

And this brings us back to Magical Astronomy, where that was practically the main theme of the story (or at least, the narrative)


" Concerning one of these romances, if we were able to go and stand on our captivating Moon, I'd think that everyone would be itching to go.

However, these two haven't yet found out about the expenses such a tour would incur." ~Magical Astronomy's narrative about Renko and Maribel

Now, if you recall, Maribel and Renko really really wanted to go to the moon.  But in the end, they couldn't.  It was just too expensive for the poor girls. 

The narrative also implies that Maribel is constantly having to worry about her finances.

" In this university, students can pay with a student card in any campus shops. The price is collected along with the monthly tuition. It reduces the cost for managing money, avoids crowded cashiers, lets students do shopping easily (because it's their parents who pay the tuition), and the sales grow. But thanks to that, students now find their expenses piling up much more than expected." ~Magical Astronomy's Narrative

Finally, ZUN confirms in the afterword of Magical Astronomy that the harshness of having to deal with these financial woes is a theme of the story (and thus, of Maribel's)


"Actually, it seems that private moon tours (without landing, apparently) are about to become reality. I hear it'll cost 100 million dollars. I'm not Renko, but:

"The Moon Tour is too expensive, isn't it?"

Who can say this price is reasonable for normal people? Is this the Arc of Noah that capitalism presents? And should the people left on Earth drown in the flood of information?

I wonder if it will come an age when the dreamers on Earth who work frantically and with no holidays can happily go to the moon."  ~ZUN


Working frantically and with no holidays?  Doesn't that sound just like a "wage slave always worrying over the little things"?  The saddest part is that despite this, they couldn't even go enjoy the moon tour.

Maribel's life was nice enough (she got into a university and she was obviously able to afford some pretty nice clothes), but she still never got all the things she wanted.  She had to keep an eye out on her expenses (the narrative mentions the students of the university did) and in the end, she couldn't afford her moon tour.



Oh, oops, I'm sorry.  I mentioned I saw something that really got on Yukari's nerves, didn't I?  Well, we don't see Yukari get mad very often.  "Strong ones are always smiling", according to Akyu in Yuka's section, and they don't get much stronger than Yukari.  You can forcefully wake her up in the winter when she's supposed to be hibernating by tearing up Gensokyo's barrier like Reimu did in CoLA Chapter 11 (Chapter 2  Purple Light whatever) and the most you'll get from her is a light scolding and sermon.  So what does it take to REALLY tick Yukari off?  It would have to be something that especially struck a personal chord with her.  Let's look at one of the few times where we see Yukari get honest-to-goodness PISSED OFF.

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Scarlet_Weather_Rhapsody:_Yukari%27s_Scenario

That would be Yukari's storyline in Scarlet Weather Rhapsody.   It's obvious from the start that Yukari is clearly in a bad mood.  She even snaps at Reimo just for enjoying "luxury like a celestial" (she's never done that before in any game or written work).  Something about celestials right now (Tenshi, in particular) is really irking Yukari.  She outright screams at Komachi for being lazy, and then she even insults Marisa and calling her a fool for only thinking of enjoyment.  When she finally reaches the heavens, she makes some very disparaging remarks about how the greedy heavens lie that they're full when they aren't.  She then tells Iku Nagae that she plans to actually kill Tenshi a bit, which is harsh enough that even a refined and elegant person like Iku gets disturbed.  ("Oh my.  That's quite unsettling.").  Iku apparently thinks she's just exaggerating and says "Go ahead and punish her" at which Yukari basically says the equivalent of "Punish?  I'm going to KILL her!"  She then tells Suika that she's going to shred Tenshi to pieces (well, she lies that Iku gave her permission to) which even freaks Suika out.

Why is Yukari so mad?  Why does she hate Tenshi so much?  We finally get the answer when Yukari runs into Tenshi, herself.  When Yukari states " I-have-found-you. " complete with emphasis like that, she's probably barely able to contain her rage and hate of the celestial before her.  She then snaps at Tenshi so hard that even our resident masochist celestial feels a bit stinged.

Yukari:  Heh, you break things on a whim and yet you won't let others do the same?
Tenchi:  Ugh, that's...

Finally, Yukari explains just what she's so mad about.

" To make the shrine able to carry your line,
you renovated the shrine to suit your tastes
and conspired to add one more place for you to live, didn't you?

I've seen the heavens during this time.
The heavens are spacious with lots of land to spare,
and yet you seek places to live on earth....

To be rich without being proud is easy.
That celestial glare that looks down upon us is so irritating.
You shall leave the earth beautifully yet cruelly!"

Yukari is pissed at Tenchi because despite the fact that Tenshi is rich (something Yukari specifically brings up) and has everything, she still wants MORE (and is going around doing things like destroying shrines and "causing casualties (Yukari's words to Komachi) to do it.


What could make Yukari feel this way?  Yukari's a youkai!  Youkai aren't even supposed to be worrying about money and riches that much (Magician Youkai being the exception, because they need money for spell components).  Surely something must have caused her to feel this way about a "rich" girl like Tenshi who "looks down upon us".

If we recall, Maribel was that girl who always had to watch her expenses in a world where the capitalism was so harsh that it "promoted the economic gaps" to the point where it's "reached it's final stage" of "population controlling" in a world where the "kids don't smile" and all the bamboo shoots and strawberries are artificial.  And despite all of this, she still couldn't afford that moon tour she wanted to go on so badly.

And here, standing in front of Yukari right now, was this rich bitch who had everything that Maribel didn't have, and still didn't care about trampling over others just so she could get MORE.

Yukari was obviously not amused.

Apparently she beat up Tenshi so badly that Tenshi was still in pain by the time the next Scarlet Weather Rhapsody character's storyline reached her (Reisen).  When a masochist like Tenshi is tired out, beat up, and nigh-delirious like she was in Reisen's story, you know that she must have received one heck of a whooping.   You're probably supposed to imagine Tenshi with swirls in her eyes and above her head while she's incoherently babbling to Reisen.




(for what it's worth, Yukari does say in her VS win quote to Tenshi that she's willing to forgive Tenshi if Tenshi does some good deeds to redeem herself.  But that's off-topic.)

(Also, I'm pretty sure Tenshi's actions are an entirely different category from Remilia and the things Remi does.  Maribel actually liked Rem... well, she liked Remilia's house. *shrug*)

[shadowbringer]

One thing's for sure.  Yukari dislikes Lunarians.  She's pretty darn cold to them in the fighting games (well, to Reisen, at least) and like I said, if someone's willing to pull off a ridiculously elaborate and complex plan just to steal a bottle of sake from you, they probably really REALLY don't like you.

Yukari may dislike celestials (based on her story mode dialogue against Reimu in SWR), her referring to Udonge as aliens sounded generic (not lunarian-only) for me, and she didn't sound that hostile in IN.

As for the complex plan, it might be her pastime, or boredom (and we know, from Tenshi, that this can't be underestimated :p), or she wanted to gain status (because she's a bit extravagant and enjoys talking about herself, according to BAiJR), or more influence (she said she didn't like how the Moriya team were trying to reproduce the humans' technology, which she considered to lack in spiritual understanding or something [1], while the technology of the lunarians would improve the life standards of the people of Gensokyo, or perhaps just the youkai. One interesting thing, though, is that the Moriya crew managed to improve the underworld -- see both Suwako and Utsuho's win quotes against Suika). Plus, a plan where she submits herself to a lunarian (Toyohime's trap and her dissuading fan), even if Yukari used herself as a decoy, wouldn't do good for her "youkai pride". Unless she cares more for outsmarting people like Eirin (it seems that Eirin was still restless after hearing that the "culprit" have been caught and left at the bamboo forest) and the lunarians, than using herself as a decoy. As a game, this might be entertaining for her, and as a last note about that specific part, it was nice of Toyohime to spare the forest (it seems that the lunarians living on it wouldn't be affected by the purifying wind, or at least not as much, anyway). Sort of reminds me of how Eirin had instructed her and her sister (Yorihime), about what to do if an intruder reaches the moon (either they must be killed, or sent back right away). Since they avoid killing others (perhaps because they're kind enough, or perhaps because they don't want impurity in their moon), Eirin "knew" that they would default to the latter. (note that Eirin herself had taken the decision to

Spoiler:

"kill" Urashima Taro from an aging medicine/box, in order to help him attain his wishes, even though at the cost of him losing contact with the people he knew

)

[1] if you count Seihou, or at least compare the thought patterns for ZUN's characters, Yuka mentions in Kioh Gyoku (in one of her win quotes).. "This is 'chemistry?' Without magic?
That's foolish."
(so far, I don't see a retcon for the above)

The only remotely-confirmed (remotely) thing Yukari wants to limit about the outside world is the Hakurei shrine.  She's fine with you knowing what a gameboy is (although she's going to keep it for herself, apparently), and she doesn't mind everyone learning how to play soccer (throw-away line in Perfect Memento which is probably just ZUN giving a shout out, but whatever)

now that I've looked a bit more.. it seems that even Sanae and Utsuho got to learn (source: Soku's win quotes against Yukari) about events at the outside.

Currently, the most obvious foreshadowing going on is the mountain youkai's disturbingly fast rise in power.  And ZUN is definately using Kanako/Suwako/Sanae to build up to something (Kanako's profile ends with her deciding that she's going to use the Hakurei Shrine to gather ALL of Gensokyo's faith, and thaclearly happened after MoF's ending since the Tengu and Kappa are already worshipping her by then.  And then you get to things like Utsuho (whom Yukari tells her that her power goes too far) and Suwako and Sanae in Hisoutenko, and ZUN apparently even got the writer of Inaba of the Moon and Earth to throw in a foreshadowing omment that the tengu and kappa were possibly becomming too powerful thanks to Suwako and Kanako, etc etc. (well, it might have been put in there per ZUN's suggestion/request/whatever)

personally, I think that if Kanako were to be so obsessed with having faith all for herself, she would have to fight Byakuren's influence, because in a short time, she (Byakuren) managed to gather followers faster than Reimu :p (note that Kanako did watch Byakuren closely, suspicious of her, before concluding that she was really honest, after talking to her. Suwako helped her build the shrine near the human village without as much thoughts)

Both Suwako and Utsuho's win quotes against Suika tell us that they've brought improvements to those living in the underground, personally I think that Suwako likes to do things on a whim. When the Moriya crew came into Gensokyo, she was the one who seemed the least interested in her duties. Meanwhile, Kanako has stated that the faith that she was looking for, was that when the festivities allowed people/youkai and gods to interact with each other.

about Yukari trying to become a god, I don't see anything pointing me towards that.. the closest thing I could think of, was when Yukari talked with Tenshi during Yukari's story mode. To me, it seemed that Tenshi wanted to gain influence in Gensokyo, and Yukari just fought it back. Unlike Suika, who've claimed a part of the heavens after beating Tenshi :p
One more thing, in SSiB, was Yukari seeking "revenge"? Or technology? It seems (from my human viewpoint, lol) that she was after revenge, more than technology, or else Yuyuko would've brought something more suited for that "mission". Thing is, Yukari's "revenge" was imho a strategy game (a compensation for her previous defeat). Fun if you feel yourself challenged, even funnier if you succeed at it.

Just because she's a required element doesn't mean Yukari isn't manipulating her.  Yukari is fully capable of both manipulating the miko AND defending humans at the same time.  The two aren't mutually exclusive.  In fact, defending the humans from youkai is one of Maribel's main goals in the first place, and if anything manipulating the miko was probably one of the main things Yukari did to accomplish that.  Yukari couldn't defend humans from youkai directly, because all indications are she doesn't want the youkai to realize she's trying to find ways to protect humans from them.  It's a moot point now that Yukari's ultimate goal came to realization with the passage of the spell card rules, anyways.

Yukari has manipulated a lot of people in SSiB, even Remilia knows that she was being manipulated, as proud as she is, and Eirin willingly helped the "heroines" rocket reach the moon, while being labeled as the main suspect of the "unrest of the moon". However, I think that she doesn't always manipulate people. Most of the times, that's not necessary (even if "necessary" includes her own entertainment). Reimu didn't even notice the "almost full" moon in IN, but Yukari and the other youkai (not necessarily/limited to the playable youkai) knew that their power were affected because of it, and defended their interests by directly helping Reimu (and the other playable humans, if you take the other scenarios into account). Yukari also convinced Reimu to go towards the Hell of Blazing Fires (or at least investigate the places where the youkai from above earth are not allowed to go), though she had to trick Reimu into thinking that there would be hot springs down below. The moriya gods' lack of communicativeness had also made Orin send these earth spirits to the surface, since Orin/Koishi didn't knew what was going on with Okuu. If they knew, the earth spirits wouldn't have been Power Geyser'd, and some of the UFO cast with them :p

It seems that Yukari aims for no-violence in general, as she rejoiced over the "bloodless outcome" of her scheme in SSiB.



lastly, I like how Yukari and Yuyuko are related to writers (well, if you can count a poet as one :p), according to the wiki of the Saigyou Ayakashi, for Yuyu.

[Anon]

To note, Tenshi isn't really a maso. She's just durable to the point that Sakuya's knives harmlessly bounce off her skin. She's packing some high def grinding.

[OkashiiKisei]

To note, Tenshi isn't really a maso. She's just durable to the point that Sakuya's knives harmlessly bounce off her skin. She's packing some high def grinding.

Yeah, those Heavenly Peaches are strong stuff. They're like super powerful versions of the Calcium tablets from Pokemon. HUGE defense boosts.

[E-Nazrin]

Well, I've been shot full of holes.

Carry on.

[shadowbringer]

This is the only one that's really not debunked.  However, again, it has no evidence to support it.  When an author states only one method, then that method is probably the method that happened.  ZUN has never brought up a descendant when it comes to Yukari, but he's certainly brought up time-slipping when it comes to Maribel.

at least, there's the possibility that Yukari and Maribel are relatives, not necessarily Maribel being a descendant of Yukari. If you look at how Eirin and the Watatsuki sisters are related, yet they're not directly descendants (like Suwako with Sanae), that's what I imagined. Since it'll be difficult to effectively prove that either of us are correct (which requires that the other hypothesis/scenarios are disproved), I'd rather not take these baits. Maybe Maribel, by coincidence, just repeated her relative's feat (in such a scenario), by reaching the moon through a lake, and they're living and growing in their future. (or, maybe Yukari, Reimu and everyone else have died, and reincarnated later shameless Ikaruga reference. Maybe someday Maribel and/or Renko will have to travel back in time and into the PC-98/Windows timeline, to preserve the course of history? now, Daifukkatsu reference? :p)

(in such a future, I wonder about the Hieda clan, whose generations were meant to represent "generations of gaming" or something :p)

[Serela]

I wonder... how far in the future is Renko, compared to Present-Gensokyo's current place in time?

And will Yukari ever go see her?

As long as she waited till after Maribel/past-her left, it wouldn't make a time paradox or anything.

[Tiamat]

For what's we  can 100% confirm, Tenshi actually just likes getting into fights.  She commands people to "punish" her, but so far there's no confirmation she actually enjoys the pain so much as is just trying to goad her foe into fighting her.  Far as I recall, it's still the only moment in the game where you see the poor girl still beat up from the previous fight, though, which shows how much Yukari tore into her.

The "Yukari is trying to become a god" thing is just personal speculation of mine.  The only two things I have towards it are that Yukari is hiding something about how she rebuilt the Hakurei Shrine (and I'm pretty sure we never got to find out what.  Just that she was VERY protective of what it was) and that Suika implies she's trying to reach nirvana in Suika's win quote to her.

It'd really fit in with all the Yukari Suwako parallels going around though.

But yea, Suwako and Kanako (and Sanae) are clearly doing things that are good for Gensokyo.  It's just that their ideas of what's good for Gensokyo seem to clash with Yukari's, and considering that Yukari considers herself the representation of Gensokyo's reality (and thus wouldn't like people around who have a different idea of what to make that reality into), I'd be pretty darn surprised if it doesn't lead to a big clash somewhere down the line.

I guess I'll list those here while I'm at it.

(note:  These are just parallels I noticed.  They don't have to mean anything, although I'm pretty sure ZUN is trying to be symbollic about something here)

Both Yukari and Suwako have their own shrine maiden

Both Yukari and Suwako are constantly doing things behind their shrine maiden's backs

Both Yukari and Suwako are "suspicious" (This is what first tipped me off about the parallels when I saw Sanae's win quote calling Suwako this.  "Suspicious" is one of Yukari's most prominent character traits, being all over the place in both CoLA and Perfect Memento)

Both Suwako and Yukari are ridiculously powerful

Both Yukari and Suwako are lazy (Suwako was so lazy that she was just ready to dissappear and fade away until Kanako dragged her into Gensokyo.  Not that Suwako minds.  Kanako also comments "There lies my ever-sleeping friend.")

Both Yukari and Suwako are wierdos.

Both Yukari and Suwako were once human but obtained near god-like power (Gotta throw in a Yukari = Maribel thing somewhere here to stay on topic, you know. )

Both Yukari and Suwako are very interested in making their shrine maiden stronger, to the point of getting into fights with her (Yukarii was randomly attacking Reimu in SSIB while Reimu was training, and Suwako is quite pleased that Sanae is attacking her in Hisoutenkou)

Both Yukari and Suwako have their own ideas of what's good for Gensokyo and are trying to carry them out (this is where the two seem to be coming to a clash)

The major differences are:

Suwako is a god, while Yukari only seems to have a god complex (psychological term for when you think you're as good as a god.  In Yukari's case, she's pretty clearly thinking and acting in a "high and mighty" fashion, as if she owns Gensokyo).  Of course, like I said, my own speculation is that she's trying to become a god, which ties into all the parallels.  Again, that's just my speculation based off her rebuilding of the hakurei shrine and the implication she's trying to reach Nirvana)

Sanae is Suwako's descent while Reimu is not.  ....well, actually, we don't really have any official confirmation she isn't.  I wouldn't be surprised if ZUN threw it in, but that's wild mass guessing levels of speculation there.

And finally, the biggest difference (and IMHO the part where Suwako becomes Yukari's foil instead of parallel) is that Sanae doesn't seem like she's going to put up with Suwako's schemes while Reimu generally goes along with Yukari's (albeit complaining about it all the way)

It's just something I noticed.  The mountain youkai are in a power balance struggle with the normal (Yukari's) youkai and the Scarlet Devil Mansion, so it's not too surprising if ZUN is making these parallels on purpose.  The funny thing about the SDM's case is if you think about it, Kanako can be parallel to Yukari's more sane side and Suwako her more insane side, while the Scarlet Devil Mansion is what happens when you take both of them and give them the maturity and personality of 10 year old brats (Remilia and Flandre).  Of course, Sakuya is their Reimu/Sanae.

at least, there's the possibility that Yukari and Maribel are relatives,

Well, like I said, I do admit that possibiity is still left open, however  unlikely.  But there's a decent amount of (circumstantial, alas) evidence even in the present day that Yukari still remembers her days as Maribel.  Of course, when the author isn't going out and directly stating it himself, (I imagine this is one of those things he wants the fanbase to figure out themselves, and will never directly state it, since it's been four years now since the last time we saw Maribel) there will always be possibilities left open.

I wonder... how far in the future is Renko, compared to Present-Gensokyo's current place in time?

And will Yukari ever go see her?

As long as she waited till after Maribel/past-her left, it wouldn't make a time paradox or anything.

That'd be a nice happy ending for her, I think, if she ever did (...or would it?).  She has the power to live that long.

[7TC7]

You forgot something while comparing Yukari and Suwako. The most obvious part of it.

They are both blond, clothed in white and violet and have a red bow / red band in their hair.
I noticed that right away as I first saw Suwako in her Extra Stage.

[Tiamat]

...hunh.  You know, I always thought of Suwako as blue for some reason, but now that I look at her, she really IS violet.

Yea, okay, I was 95% sure ZUN was doing the Yukari Suwako symbolism on purpose for something, but now I'm pretty much 100% certain (I'd be 120% certain if that were possible).  At this point, making the two factions clash is practically obligatory.  Although I'd be surprised to see it happen in a normal shooting game (a fighting game or another SSiB manga, on the other hand, would be quite logical)

....I wonder if Kanako (who wears red and white) is supposed to parallel Reimu.  The two allegedly argue a lot according to Kanako's profile (but if anything, the fact that they argue a lot is proof that they're good friends, according to the profile), and Reimu argues a lot with Yukari (...well, actually, it's a lot more one-sided than that, but Reimu is Yukari's shrine maiden while Kanako is more like Suwako's partner).  Course, Reimu is Yukari's shrine maiden of sorts while Kanako conquered Suwako.  Maybe that's foreshadowing.

[OkashiiKisei]

...hunh.  You know, I always thought of Suwako as blue for some reason, but now that I look at her, she really IS violet.

Yea, okay, I was 95% sure ZUN was doing the Yukari Suwako symbolism on purpose for something, but now I'm pretty much 100% certain (I'd be 120% certain if that were possible).  At this point, making the two factions clash is practically obligatory.  Although I'd be surprised to see it happen in a normal shooting game (a fighting game or another SSiB manga, on the other hand, would be quite logical)

....I wonder if Kanako (who wears red and white) is supposed to parallel Reimu.  The two allegedly argue a lot according to Kanako's profile (but if anything, the fact that they argue a lot is proof that they're good friends, according to the profile), and Reimu argues a lot with Yukari (...well, actually, it's a lot more one-sided than that, but Reimu is Yukari's shrine maiden while Kanako is more like Suwako's partner).  Course, Reimu is Yukari's shrine maiden of sorts while Kanako conquered Suwako.  Maybe that's foreshadowing.

I think Kanako is Suwako's Ran actually, with Sanae remaining Suwako's Reimu. Kanako is serious, calculated, and has a closer relationship to Sanae than Suwako (like how Ran has a closer relationship with Chen than Yukari). Sometimes it looks like Suwako is using Kanako as tool, for the Hisoutensoku plan was largely Suwako's idea, and she used the nuclear power Kanako released to create Hisoutensoku. If you look at Suwako as a scheming mastermind that just fakes her childishness then you can imagine her manipulating Kanako. Though, there is still lots of discussion which of these two Gods is stronger. Most fans believe Kanako is stronger due to having more faith (and due to the fact Suwako wasn't a really hard Ex-Boss). Kanako also got them in Gensokyo and made the shrine. And don't forget the fact Kanako beat Suwako ages ago. However, I for one believe Suwako is conserving her faith power, while Kanako is wasting it all for her plans. In the end, Suwako might become stronger than Kanako, or already IS stronger than Kanako, due to having conserved power, and perhaps having increased it over the years. The child form she takes may just be a means of conserving strength. If Suwako would go all-out she would take on an adult form. I can imagine Suwako appeared adult when she was ruling her kingdm, and degraded to a child form once she was bested by Kanako. After all, the bulk of the Gensokyo Top have mature appearances. I think Suwako is planning something behind Kanako's back, especially now that I see how much she resembles Yukari.

But where did you read that Suwako was once human? Sure, I believe in the theory that Gods are the ghost of humans that obtained massive amounts of faith during their lifetime/after death (and thus could re-materialize again in a more powerful form), but as far as I know there hasn't been any official confirmation of that. Care to show the source of that fact?