RosenKreuzStilette Mafia - Game Over

[Shizumarashi Mayuzumi]

EBWOP: Cut by Alice: Mmm'kay. There's still plenty of time in the game-day, at least, I'll look back over what's here/add new stuff into consideration tomorrow~ (Especially 'cause I'm going to bed in probably about an hour.)

[Serp]

[Serp] seems to be laying low, though whether as scum trying to evade attention, or just IRL-busy or something, *shrug*.

Nocturnal, actually,  After my first post, I spent the whole night refreshing the thread, but there wasn't a whole lot new to respond to before I went to sleep again.

Anyway, my own reread during the night turned up Nietz and Kanako as looking worst after Chaore's flip, so I'm pleased to see that they're looking most likely to be lynched.  I wouldn't be surprised if they both flipped scum, though Kanako has that "spineless vs. scummy" dilemma going on in his own actions, so I'm more confident in lynching Nietz.  The way that Nietz seemed to hold a pretty "meh" attitude towards the the Chaore vs. Kanako cases could indicate a mindset of scum having to choose between two scumbuddies to vote, and the way that Chaore didn't see the Kanako case as an alternate to his own also seems to put the two of them together.

With a game this big, I'm assuming that there are four scum, and I've found that in games with large scumteams, scum are more likely to risk sacrificing one of their own early on in an attempt to gain towncred.  So, I wouldn't rule out hard bussing in our search for the last scumbuddy.  Of the people who got the Chaore wagon rolling before UD quit and Chaore jumped to the fore, Alice's was fine, and since it makes no sense for scum-Alice to start bussing Chaore and then stop like that, I'm not considering that a scummy point.  Kitten4u's vote on Chaore also looks natural enough.  Pesco is quite naturally confirmed, but Zakeri's vote never really looked like a townie who thought he was lynching scum.  He spent a lot of time defending the guy who's now looking likely to be town, while playing word games with the scum that didn't look likely to get lynched.  I'm seeing it as less someone pressing a case, and more someone trying to look like he's pressing a case.  Furthermore, it looks like Zakeri was setting up to switch off of Chaore from what he says in posts 117 and 197.  If Zakeri had been around to see that Kilga had managed to find a replacement for UD, then I think he probably would have switched to another case.

And another thing I just noticed on my latest readthrough:  Chaore says that if UD is scum, then Zakeri is scum.  If UsuallyRou is town, then Chaore knew he'd flip that way.  I've noticed that scum have a tendency to make those sorts of statements to bolster support for their scumbuddies.  "If [townie] is scum, then [scumbuddy] is also scum!  But look, [townie] flipped town, so that makes [scumbuddy] look more townie!"  It's a more convincing connection than a straightforward chainsaw defense, I think, especially when the scum making that argument doesn't expect his own alignment to be revealed at the end of the day.  Among those early on the Chaore case, I think Zakeri looks scummiest, though not as scummy as Nietz and Kanako.

Other points:

My point is 'why did [Kanako] stay away from Chaore and only Chaore'? In terms of him being scum, it would only make sense if, well, everyone else he voted was Town. That's myself, you, and (to an extent since he got FoSd and generally dissed by him) Zakeri.

Well, if you set aside the Zakeri aspect as hard bussing (or allow for Zakeri to be town, which is still possible), then all that's required for it to be a point against Kanako would be for you and UK to both be town.  Chaore didn't connect himself as strongly to UK as he did to Kanako, I think, so if only one of them are scum, I'm thinking it's Kanako.

As for my vote, I don't want to bring Nietz to L-1 with less than half of the day to go, so I'll park it on Kanako with the understanding that I'll move it to hammer Nietz if I need to.

##Vote: Kanako  (L-4)

[EvilTom]

I'm between UD and Chaore, but UD is the worst offender, and I seriously think he will get himslef lynched lynched sooner or later anyway.

Early on Nietz angled towards UD, suggesting that Chaore should be allowed to live on because he'd be no threat and would get himself lynched.

I don't feel like reading and rereading all this stuff right now (especially the Mafiatroid walls). Here's a couple of stuff that caught my attention for now.
[Vague summaries omitted]
Basically, not much new from me, I admit. Just ##Unvote for now.   

Train on Chaore builds. Nietz provides vague useless summaries, then unvotes without really doing anything. Obviously trying to maintain a low profile in light of the imminent doom of his scumbuddy Chaore (whom he previously supported).

Alright, I see the point against 'nako. His actions do have all the look of trying to slip an easy vote in the wagon of the hour. Could be, as someone mentioned, a spineless town, but could even more easily be a spineless scum.

Chaore doesn't look any better for me, in fact worse. Looks too much like cornered scum, trying find any way out.

Right now these are the only ones I feel like voting, and I'm very indecisive at that. Chaore is the leading wagon right, but Kanako still can be worked as an alternative.
I'm still going with ##Vote Chaore since it was my intention before, we can see about Kanako later.

Chaore is already doomed by this point, but he still makes a show of input, jumping on the Chaore train for town cred but leaving open the option of switching to a Kanako train (in case his scumbuddy gets off the hook somehow).
This also leaves Kanako open as a fallback case.

Well, with Chaore dead, next on the line is Kanako.

Active scumhunting fuck yeah! Oh wait..

Kanako who was just voting into the popular wagons completely avoided Chaore's. And Charo who was desperately trying to take the pressure off him and into someone else didn't consider Kanako, even when he was shaping up as a possible alternative.
So it's basically ##Vote Kanako.

Maybe you could show some actual evidence, links, anything? Your accusations are based on vague statements. This is a perfect way for scum to avoid responsibility for a vote, whilst looking like they're doing something.

I voted Chaore because he was more likely to be lynched if the wagon was kept on him, while diverting votes into 'nako at time might not be effective.

See above on why this is incredibly scummy.

[WHMZakeri]

I figure the last thing I should be saying right now is "I need to reread" but unfortunately it's true.

Reading through the last few pages, I feel the evidence against Neitz is more implicating than anything brought up against Kanako. If I could vote with confidence right now, the vote would be on Neitz. I am aware they both can be scum though.

And before you ask, Yes I think Rou is town. My excuse for saying UD is being pro-town is because of him sacrificing public opinion for the good of getting discussion going at a running pace - something I think is noob town based, as oppose to keeping quiet and only pushing cases when it prevents people from turning an eye to you - something I think is more noob scum. This is also the exact reason for my early vote on Chaore. Once you get the hang of this game newbies are a lot easier to read in general than you would think, which is why I was certain of both of them so early on.

I've flipfloped on my opinion of UK enough to know that I shouldn't say whether I think one way or another on her until after the reread. There will also be a significant increase in post numbers by then.

[FinnKaenbyou]

You were UD. UD did. No matter how much you say "He was indefensible, now this is why I'm incorrectly calling UK scum"

Points for subliminally suggesting that 'I'm wrong with this lynch and I know it'.

Kana has played enough games to know better. And you know this.

No, actually. No I don't.

@Arashi: I'm not going to go over D1 with a fine-tooth comb. There's pretty much nothing to look for. It's Day 1.

I'm seeing a lot of wordswordsUKwords and not much hunting - more appearance of doing something than actual doing something.

So the namedrop (which, whatever Alice says, I still think is valid) isn't hunting? The cheerleading of the case? Responding to UD's personal attacks with equal rage?
And I'm in trouble because I'm not examining every little slipup out of knowledge that
a) In the end it produces confusion, not solutions
b) It has a habit of reducing me to a babbling wreck?
tl;dr - If it works for Kilga, it works for me.

Not only does it not have a clear implication that UK might be Chaore's buddy, how the hell does he know how "dangerous" UK is as Scum?

And that is exactly my point.
He blatantly steps in to defend UK with an absolutely ridiculous defense. Panicking noob, from where I'm standing.

Zak Ninja (Finally!): Welp, the 'noobs are easy to read therefore I'm right' argument doesn't come across well. The obvious question is 'if Chaore was so easy to read, why did you not give any reasoning for it at the time?' Did you assume everyone else playing was also a mind-reader?

[WHMZakeri]

I don't consider it mind reading. The reason I didn't say specifically that at the time was because the early game was a rush just getting your posts out of the reply box. I spent posts 71, 81, 96, and 102 examining Chaore based on points that I felt were scummy enough to vote for him at the time, and found absolutely no reason why I should remove my vote during the conversation.

[Carthrat]

@Rou: I'm not taking random remarks made during the early voting phase as proof of anything. It is the road to ruin.

@Serp: Nietz's action there doesn't tell us anything about Kanako. If he's feeling disconsolate or weak, it'd be because his buddy is dying, not because he has to choose.

I do not think Kanako/Nietz a likely scumpair makes anyway, owing to Nietz's swift vote for Kanako early today before the train on him really picked up. Having lost one buddy on day 1, scum immediately go for a second bus straight away? Both look individually pretty awful, yes, but this doesn't really fit together.

[Serp]

I do not think Kanako/Nietz a likely scumpair makes anyway, owing to Nietz's swift vote for Kanako early today before the train on him really picked up. Having lost one buddy on day 1, scum immediately go for a second bus straight away? Both look individually pretty awful, yes, but this doesn't really fit together.

On the contrary, losing a buddy can make scum get desperate enough to sacrifice a second one, if they feel like the loss of the first buddy has implicated them too strongly and the only way to stem the bleeding is a sacrificial gambit.  I direct you to (again) Invasion mafia, where after my scum team lost VgameT on the first day, I instructed both my remaining buddies to bus me hard.  If Nietz and Kanako are buddies, and with them both on the chopping block, there's really nothing they can do but tear into each other and hope that something else happens today to take the town's attention off whoever survives.

[Kilgamayan]

Let's Play Danmaku Detective Game! Day 2 Vote Count

UncertainKitten (2): Roukanken, Kitten4u
Nietz (6): EvilTom, Alice Margatroid, Kerigis, Edible, Jam, Rat
Zakeri (1): Kanako
Kanako (4): UncertainKitten, Nietz, Sodium, Serpentarius
Roukanken (1): Arashi

No vote cast: Zakeri

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. You have 23.5 hours remaining.

[Edible]

Requesting prod for Kanako, it's been 24 hours.

[Kilgamayan]

Technically not yet. The prod PM will be sent in 20 minutes.

[Edible]

Oh, whoops.  For some reason I read his last post as 12-something, not 1-something.

At any rate, I want both Nietz and Kanako to address the suspicions towards them.

[Kitten4u]

Blargh, I got busy yesterday.  I feel like a terrible person for not being able to post much. ._.

Allow me to ask how I should read this? As "Nietz looks the worst out of all the players", or "Nietz looks the worst out of the players on the wagon"?

Looks the worst of the people on the wagon.  My bad.

See, this would be good, except one thing. You never do really explain why I look worse than Kanako. I know I look terrible but I can't buy for even 3 seconds Kanako doesn't look worse. At least Rou gave an (albeit shitty) reason.

Unfortunately, I had to do something, so I didn't really have that much time to explain.  I'm happy to elaborate now though.

Most of it has to do with timing.  I brought up the big things in my little summery.  No pressure on Chaore?  He looks okay.  Pressure on Chaore?  Oh noes, he's actually looking pretty bad!  ...For the same things I said he looked okay for earlier!  And then there was the timing of your Kanako vote.  Chaore was coming under pressure and it looked like a few people were suspicious of her.  It seemed like an excellent time to try to get a counter wagon going, and Kanako looked like a pretty good target for that.

I also disagree with Alice.  Chaore was suprisingly honest for scum (admitting that he was only doing stuff to prevent him from looking bad?  Admitting that he wasn't switching because he couldn't justify it?).  Saying that UK wasn't a good lynch beacuse she wasn't dangerous as scum...right after she was attacked by UD...right after he said that it was never a goood idea to lose a townie.  Yeah, not what I would expect from someone that thinks UK shouldn't be lynched because she might be/is town.

Then we get to that horribad IIoA post that you liked for some reason.  He calls you scum for...I dunno.  I seriously can't even tell what he's trying to say there.  Then we get to this post where he calls you town because you are...probably not scum with Pesco and you didn't attack him.  I'll just say that I agree with the logic that some people are using on Zak.  It looked like he was trying to connect you to a random townie.

Kanako had the stuff that was brought up against him; I see no need to repeat all that.  I agree, he looks really bad as well.  The big difference for me was that he stuck with that nuetral read and didn't pull a 360 on what he said about Chaore's posts.  Looking at the motivations between the two of you (looking at both town and scum motivations here) it's possible that Kanako was just wrong.  That happens sometimes.  It is also possible that your timing is just a coincidence.  But when I looked at the potential motivations between you and Kanako I thought that what I saw from you was more likely to come from scum.

---

This post was typed before, during and after one of my classes, so it's probably somewhat jumbly.  I apologize for that.  I have to jet again (meaning I also didn't have time to proof-read), but I'll be back in a few minutes.  i'll comment on other stuff after.

[Kilgamayan]

Kanako has been prodded for inactivity.

Meant to post this when I did it about 15 minutes ago, sorry.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

I also disagree with Alice.  Chaore was suprisingly honest for scum (admitting that he was only doing stuff to prevent him from looking bad?  Admitting that he wasn't switching because he couldn't justify it?).  Saying that UK wasn't a good lynch beacuse she wasn't dangerous as scum...right after she was attacked by UD...right after he said that it was never a goood idea to lose a townie.  Yeah, not what I would expect from someone that thinks UK shouldn't be lynched because she might be/is town.

It's the phrasing that bothers me. "UK isn't dangerous enough as Scum to justify that". How would he know? He's never played a mafia game before, here OR on MS OR really anywhere as far as I know!

[Edible]

Query for Alice.

What exactly do you hope to gain from Kanako's (likely inevitable) lynch?  Can you provide examples for each flip scenario?

[UncertainJakutten]

Points for subliminally suggesting that 'I'm wrong with this lynch and I know it'.

Isn't it great when you steal my cases on myself?

No, actually. No I don't.

I'll check some archives. But you've been in a fair amount of games with Kana if memory serves me well.

@Arashi: I'm not going to go over D1 with a fine-tooth comb. There's pretty much nothing to look for. It's Day 1.

convenient excuse, really. "I'm not going to go over the day and look for connections with a flipped scum since that might lead to someone who's not UK"

...

You know what? I think UD/Rou is a lyncher. That is one of the most LOGICAL explanations for why UD and Rou REFUSE to stay off me and use whatever they can find to paint me red. It also would fit Kilga's sense of humor.

Rou, if you could confirm this, it'd be nice. I'd also like to know if you leave the game if I'm lynched (or win outright). I'll gladly give you my lynch if you'll start actually scumhunting.

a) In the end it produces confusion, not solutions
b) It has a habit of reducing me to a babbling wreck?
tl;dr - If it works for Kilga, it works for me.

Problem is, Kilga actually catches scum. Further, Kilga actually reads D1 overnight, especially in light of a scum flip. I will agree that b. is a good reason not to take things too seriously, but there's a difference between not looking at every slip and not doing cursory analysis of the other cases because you really want someone's lynch.

And that is exactly my point.
He blatantly steps in to defend UK with an absolutely ridiculous defense. Panicking noob, from where I'm standing.

Isn't this exactly the opposite of what you just said earlier in this post? I mean, about not belaboring every scumslip?

Anyway, at some point today I should read Zak. Just a note based on his recent posts and pending his reread.

Most of it has to do with timing.  I brought up the big things in my little summery.  No pressure on Chaore?  He looks okay.  Pressure on Chaore?  Oh noes, he's actually looking pretty bad!  ...For the same things I said he looked okay for earlier!  And then there was the timing of your Kanako vote.  Chaore was coming under pressure and it looked like a few people were suspicious of her.  It seemed like an excellent time to try to get a counter wagon going, and Kanako looked like a pretty good target for that.

Links please. I want links to the posts you cite so I can check them against the most recent votecount. As I said, I basically was happy with ANYTHING out of Cha that would help me read him. Which apparently didn't work out too well. Course, if Kanako flips scum I'll be rather absolved, I think. But yeah, I can't really go further until I check against vote counts.

I also disagree with Alice.  Chaore was suprisingly honest for scum (admitting that he was only doing stuff to prevent him from looking bad?  Admitting that he wasn't switching because he couldn't justify it?).  Saying that UK wasn't a good lynch beacuse she wasn't dangerous as scum...right after she was attacked by UD...right after he said that it was never a goood idea to lose a townie.  Yeah, not what I would expect from someone that thinks UK shouldn't be lynched because she might be/is town.

Yet he claims survivor. Honestly, were I scum with him, I'd have told him a HELL of a lot better fakeclaim than survivor. Course, that is WIFOM. Still though. I don't think we can trust in Cha's honesty as much as you'd like. You know, because he's scum

Then we get to that horribad IIoA post that you liked for some reason.  He calls you scum for...I dunno.  I seriously can't even tell what he's trying to say there.  Then we get to this post where he calls you town because you are...probably not scum with Pesco and you didn't attack him.  I'll just say that I agree with the logic that some people are using on Zak.  It looked like he was trying to connect you to a random townie.

That does actually give a good reason for the kill. Which honestly feels like a frame job more than anything. Than again, I know my alignment.

(That's another subliminal for those paying attention at home!)

Kanako had the stuff that was brought up against him; I see no need to repeat all that.  I agree, he looks really bad as well.  The big difference for me was that he stuck with that nuetral read and didn't pull a 360 on what he said about Chaore's posts.  Looking at the motivations between the two of you (looking at both town and scum motivations here) it's possible that Kanako was just wrong.  That happens sometimes.  It is also possible that your timing is just a coincidence.  But when I looked at the potential motivations between you and Kanako I thought that what I saw from you was more likely to come from scum.

Besides the hilarious "pulled a 360", (assumably this was a mistake and you meant 180, though then again you could actually mean 360), this part of your post kinda works against your case and is subtly protecting Kanako.

Why can't I "just be wrong" as well? Or hell, even half right, since I did end with him as "Scum but not as likely scum as Kanako"

Wow...I really need Kanako's flip :S...

Anyway, what think ye of his current lurkfest?

At any rate, I accept K4U's case as an actually logical one against me. I hope she can give me those links soon so I can see if there's any mitigation available.

NINJARS:

It's the phrasing that bothers me. "UK isn't dangerous enough as Scum to justify that". How would he know? He's never played a mafia game before, here OR on MS OR really anywhere as far as I know!

Is this a point against or for me?

Query for Alice.

What exactly do you hope to gain from Kanako's (likely inevitable) lynch?  Can you provide examples for each flip scenario?

I actually want to answer this myself, if you'd like to ask, Edible. I won't answer now since you asked someone else though.

[UncertainJakutten]

EBWOP: /me sighs

Can you fix my tags, Kilga?

[Kitten4u]

It's the phrasing that bothers me. "UK isn't dangerous enough as Scum to justify that". How would he know? He's never played a mafia game before, here OR on MS OR really anywhere as far as I know!

It's the phrasing that bothers me too.  We know Chaore is scum, so I can think of this from a scum perspective.  A guy is attacking UK.  His attack sucks.  Guy says that UK should be lynched because even if she is town she'd be willing to be a "noble sacrifice," or something like that and if she's scum, well she's scum.  This is obviously bad.  So, Chaore says that lynching townies is a bad thing (which it is) and then two lines later he says that we shouldn't lynch UK because even if she is scum she's not dangerous. 

Thinking about it from a scum perspective, Chaore would already know what UK was.  I get the feeling if he were defending a townie he would say something along the lines of "we shouldn't lynch her because she might be town and losing a townie is bad, it's too soon to tell what she is," or something like that.  But UK is a bad lynch because she's not dangerous as scum?  Combined with when he did it?  Points to UK being scum with him imo.

Links please. I want links to the posts you cite so I can check them against the most recent votecount. As I said, I basically was happy with ANYTHING out of Cha that would help me read him. Which apparently didn't work out too well. Course, if Kanako flips scum I'll be rather absolved, I think. But yeah, I can't really go further until I check against vote counts.

k

Horibad IIoA post
Your response
I vote Chaore and express some suspicion of Kanako
Chaore posts stuff on Zak
You say it's good
Carth votes for Kanako
Carth votes for Chaore
Vote count before you call Chaore suspicious
Where you call Chaore suspicious and vote for Kanako

Included that Carth and myself were both suspicious of Kanako to prove that Kanako would be a logical counter-wagon to Chaore should someone be able to make a good case out of it.  When you voted for Kanako Chaore have four votes on him, but he was starting to come under pressure from people that weren't voting for him yet.  It seemed like an oppertune time to try to distract attention away from Chaore and onto someone else.

Yet he claims survivor. Honestly, were I scum with him, I'd have told him a HELL of a lot better fakeclaim than survivor. Course, that is WIFOM. Still though. I don't think we can trust in Cha's honesty as much as you'd like. You know, because he's scum

You also didn't post again until several hours after he claimed (it was like 8 hours iirc), so I'm just assuming you weren't on when he claimed.

Besides the hilarious "pulled a 360", (assumably this was a mistake and you meant 180, though then again you could actually mean 360), this part of your post kinda works against your case and is subtly protecting Kanako.

Yeah that's what I meant.  That's the kind of thing I'd catch in the proofreading I didn't do. :V  And of course it looks that way because I sort of am.  I think you are more likely to be scum, you asked me why I thought this was true so I answered with why Kanako was more likely to be town than you.  I do look at motivations for both town and scum when I read people.  After all, if it were enough to look for scummy things townies woudln't get lynched.

Why can't I "just be wrong" as well? Or hell, even half right, since I did end with him as "Scum but not as likely scum as Kanako"

It's possible, but Kanako didn't completely change his mind on his Chaore read when he came under pressure like you did.  Overall, I consider what you did as far more likely to come from scum than what Kanako did.

[Edible]

I actually want to answer this myself, if you'd like to ask, Edible. I won't answer now since you asked someone else though.

Nothing preventing you from doing so.  Multiple people have expressed interest in Kanako's lynch, I'm open to multiple people answering what they hope to get out of it.

I'm chiefly interested because I'm not nearly as sold on Scumkanako as I am on Scumnietz, and if we choose to bring down Kanako instead, I'd like to hear what the specific potential gain is (aside from the chance of flipping scum).

[UncertainJakutten]

I'll note that I did qualify my appreciation of Cha's post, but I still let the idea of "OMG CONTENT" color my read.

The post on Zak/UD really wasn't terrible though. I stay consistent in that opinion.

You also didn't post again until several hours after he claimed (it was like 8 hours iirc), so I'm just assuming you weren't on when he claimed.

At L-2, I'd have left a note. But again, WIFOM. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.

I think you are more likely to be scum, you asked me why I thought this was true so I answered with why Kanako was more likely to be town than you.  I do look at motivations for both town and scum when I read people.  After all, if it were enough to look for scummy things townies woudln't get lynched.

* Uncertain Mikeneko Rock sighs.

Here's the thing. I think you are town. That was a wonderful case. But, if/when Kanako flips scum, I can't help but feel you are far more likely his buddy.

I guess what I want at this point is "How am I more scum motivated than Kanako?"

It's possible, but Kanako didn't completely change his mind on his Chaore read when he came under pressure like you did.  Overall, I consider what you did as far more likely to come from scum than what Kanako did.

c'est la vie. You're at least half wrong. I can't really counter it though

(That's another one, btw )

I'll be honest. I don't see Kanako as a viable counter wagon for Cha. Even is suspicion was expressed by Carth and Alice, they never followed through. It wasn't going to work.

Cha was basically a counterwagon against UD. I think you should look at that aspect, and regard Kanako and myself's actions concerning that.

Well, also that my case on Kanako was stronger than the one on Cha, but yeah.

NINJARS:

Nothing preventing you from doing so.  Multiple people have expressed interest in Kanako's lynch, I'm open to multiple people answering what they hope to get out of it.

I'm chiefly interested because I'm not nearly as sold on Scumkanako as I am on Scumnietz, and if we choose to bring down Kanako instead, I'd like to hear what the specific potential gain is (aside from the chance of flipping scum).

Well, there is the subtle tying myself to Alice that would occur if I answered for him. Hence why I asked permission before answering.

Well, the most obvious benefit is I expect him to flip scum.
If Kanako flips scum:
I am slightly more likely to be town
K4U is more likely to be scum
Serpentarius is slightly more likely to be town
Nietz, as Carth said, is very slightly more likely to be town.
Alice won't get any benefit, possibly even a slightly more likely to be scum for going for NEETz, though that's VERY slight.
People on the Nietz wagon will need to be reread overall, I think, if Kanako flips scum.

If Kanako flips town:
I look a lot worse. Even worse than before.
K4U looks better, though there's a chance she was scum engineering my mislynch in response to Kanako's
Serpentarius looks worse
NEETz looks worse.
People on the NEETz wagon with good reasons not to vote Kanako look better.
People on the Kana wagon should be reread.

I hope that helps.

[Nietz]

Sorry, but it seems I'm not finding neither time nor will to keep up on this game, much less properly participate. So I'm asking for replacement if possible. (And if not, just hammer away anyway.)

OTL

[FinnKaenbyou]

@Rou: I'm not taking random remarks made during the early voting phase as proof of anything. It is the road to ruin.

I'm not seeing it as random. It was Chaore's first serious point for the whole day, and moreso it was a defense. I find it difficult to think he'd panic and throw a defense on a Townie for no reason as soon as D1 began.

UK: I am not a lyncher.

But you've been in a fair amount of games with Kana if memory serves me well.

[zomgmeta]And I remember him as not exactly being the best of players.[/zomgmeta]

convenient excuse, really. "I'm not going to go over the day and look for connections with a flipped scum since that might lead to someone who's not UK"

- I did read over the day, which let me see Chaore's first day connection to you. So this point is moot.
- If I was so intent on lynching you why did I make no effort to accuse you D1?

Problem is, Kilga actually catches scum. Further, Kilga actually reads D1 overnight, especially in light of a scum flip. I will agree that b. is a good reason not to take things too seriously, but there's a difference between not looking at every slip and not doing cursory analysis of the other cases because you really want someone's lynch.

I have read over D1. I have in particular read through Chaore's posts. I know full well that if I look hard enough I could potentially produce cases against everyone, so I don't for the sake of being clear and avoiding confusion.

Regardless of my opinion of him, I can certainly agree that Kanako's lack of posting is bad. :|

Ninja'd...by Nietz asking for a replacement. >_>

[UncertainJakutten]

[zomgmeta]And I remember him as not exactly being the best of players.[/zomgmeta]

He wasn't. But he's not a noob.

- I did read over the day, which let me see Chaore's first day connection to you. So this point is moot.
- If I was so intent on lynching you why did I make no effort to accuse you D1?

Couldn't get away with it. Cha's flip gave you perfect leverage. I wouldn't be so suspicious if you had put a case up like say, K4U's.

Anyway, Cha is connected to more people than just me. It's obvious you are tunneling.

I have read over D1. I have in particular read through Chaore's posts. I know full well that if I look hard enough I could potentially produce cases against everyone, so I don't for the sake of being clear and avoiding confusion.

In other words you're tunneling. gj.

UK: I am not a lyncher.

Sure coulda fooled me. Well, at any rate, we can't believe you. If you had claimed lyncher, we could probably have taken it at face value, gotten me lynched at some point, gotten you out of the game, and been happy. Since you haven't, you could still be one worried about the town (rightly) lynching a third party, or if you succeed in lynching me, the games over, you win. I highly doubt this latter situation since Kilga wouldn't do that to us.

Oh yeah, there's also you just being misguided town or somehow, despite the evidence against it, you being scum. But yeah .

[Kitten4u]

I guess what I want at this point is "How am I more scum motivated than Kanako?"

Did the line you quoted right below this not answer this question? Okay then.

1.) Kanako did not have those connections to Chaore that Rou and I pointed out.
2.) Kanako was 100% consistant in what he said and remained that way even when Chaore came under pressure.
3.) The timing of your vote on Kanako is awkward.

I think that sums it up.

I'll be honest. I don't see Kanako as a viable counter wagon for Cha. Even is suspicion was expressed by Carth and Alice, they never followed through. It wasn't going to work.

I think you're misunderstanding what I was saying.  I agree, Kanako's wagon was not big enough to be a counter wagon (which is why I haven't just completely cleared him).  However, I think it's likey that scum would at least try to form one.  Combined with the fact that you voted for Kanako (whom two people that were on that Chaore wagon expressed suspicion of and was a pretty easy target if town) when Chaore was coming under pressure and only had four votes (enough that there was pressure , not enough that there was no hope for a counter wagon) it looks very suspicious.

Well, also that my case on Kanako was stronger than the one on Cha, but yeah.

I disagree.  I don't even get why you're using this as a point.

[Edible]

Sorry, but it seems I'm not finding neither time nor will to keep up on this game, much less properly participate. So I'm asking for replacement if possible. (And if not, just hammer away anyway.)

OTL

Translation: "I was completely steamrolled by Town, and I'm giving up without saying anything that may further incriminate my scumbuddies."

So, where were we?

[UncertainJakutten]

I disagree.  I don't even get why you're using this as a point.

Because it's um...relevant? Why would I vote the person with the weaker case on them? That's just retarded?

3.) The timing of your vote on Kanako is awkward.

That's also why I brought up that point. Why is it awkward?

I disagree with your assessment of the Cha situation at that point. I do not think Kanako was a viable counter wagon, and one could have come up with a much better one. Sodium or NEETz seemed to be getting enough flack as to make more sense.

[FinnKaenbyou]

He wasn't. But he's not a noob.

If you never advance beyond beying a noob, you're a noob no matter how many games you've played. The question is not 'is this his first game?' as much as 'is he still as bad as I remember him being?'.

Anyway, Cha is connected to more people than just me. It's obvious you are tunneling.

For only making one clear case rather than trying to make 5 at once and as such being confusing and contradictory? Making multiple cases and being unable to choose between them has been my downfall in recent games. And in addition I honestly feel the case against you is that good.

[Kitten4u]

Because it's um...relevant? Why would I vote the person with the weaker case on them? That's just retarded?

I don't see what this:

Well, also that my case on Kanako was stronger than the one on Cha, but yeah.

has to do with this:

c'est la vie. You're at least half wrong. I can't really counter it though

(That's another one, btw )

I'll be honest. I don't see Kanako as a viable counter wagon for Cha. Even is suspicion was expressed by Carth and Alice, they never followed through. It wasn't going to work.

Cha was basically a counterwagon against UD. I think you should look at that aspect, and regard Kanako and myself's actions concerning that.

Or this

It's possible, but Kanako didn't completely change his mind on his Chaore read when he came under pressure like you did.  Overall, I consider what you did as far more likely to come from scum than what Kanako did.

I get that as town you would vote for whoever you found more suspicious.  It's just that as scum you would A) want to avoid voting for Chaore and B) would want to try to get someone else lynched.

Why is it awkward?

See this

I think it's likey that scum would at least try to form one.  Combined with the fact that you voted for Kanako (whom two people that were on that Chaore wagon expressed suspicion of and was a pretty easy target if town) when Chaore was coming under pressure and only had four votes (enough that there was pressure , not enough that there was no hope for a counter wagon) it looks very suspicious.

I disagree with your assessment of the Cha situation at that point. I do not think Kanako was a viable counter wagon, and one could have come up with a much better one. Sodium or NEETz seemed to be getting enough flack as to make more sense.

I don't know which game you're reading, but Kanako was getting more flak than both of them in the one that I was reading.  The only person that really cared about Sodium was Alice.  The only person that really cared about Nietz were Tom and Keregis.  Every other opinion of him I saw was just waffly.

[UncertainJakutten]

I don't know which game you're reading, but Kanako was getting more flak than both of them in the one that I was reading.  The only person that really cared about Sodium was Alice.  The only person that really cared about Nietz were Tom and Keregis.  Every other opinion of him I saw was just waffly.

I recall all three being" what the hell?

As for how it's relevant, it was tagged on to the end of my post to respond to an earlier point. I forget which once because I honestly don't care.

You have your little case. It's uncounterable. You're wrong. I just have to try to make it so you don't secure my lynch while I try to secure and actual scum lynch.

(And yes, that was another subliminal tell )

If you never advance beyond beying a noob, you're a noob no matter how many games you've played. The question is not 'is this his first game?' as much as 'is he still as bad as I remember him being?'.

He wasn't THIS bad.

For only making one clear case rather than trying to make 5 at once and as such being confusing and contradictory? Making multiple cases and being unable to choose between them has been my downfall in recent games. And in addition I honestly feel the case against you is that good.

Well, K4U's case is. Your's still remains ass. But of course, anything you say now will just be parroting her

So, yeah, I think basically I can ignore anything you two say about me unless it's actually new content.