INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)

[Vibri]

Kilga: I'm not really interested in having a catfight with you either.  It's not beneficial to anyone to bicker about dumb crap during dead periods.

fake edit: Rou beat me to it I guess. 

Rou:  What you said was "To add to it he says here that Anthony is repeating my old scumtell and seems fine with the attack, and then here he shifts to 'I'm uncomfortable about the Anthony lynch'."  You had previously said "Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion."  I was confused since at one point you said it was a joke, and later you took it as me saying Anthony was scum godfather.  I guess that's resolved, though.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Rou:  What you said was "To add to it he says here that Anthony is repeating my old scumtell and seems fine with the attack, and then here he shifts to 'I'm uncomfortable about the Anthony lynch'."  You had previously said "Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion."  I was confused since at one point you said it was a joke, and later you took it as me saying Anthony was scum godfather.  I guess that's resolved, though.

Again, that was in reference to Pesco. At that time I honestly thought you meant the whole attack on Anthony - it was later, if I recall, that you turned around and said you didn't suspect him.

[Kilgamayan]

Roukan: What case of VGT's am I supposed to be refuting right now? That I don't have enough "substance"? I've given you two people that are probably scum, one that's probably town and a slight feeling on a couple of other players. That's already enough for Day 1. I'm not throwing out piles of WoT shit on people that don't matter. There are enough people doing that already.

I've already gone over why VGT and Anthony are probably scum. Do you want to know why Zakeri's probably town? Because he made a good townie argument for why UK is scum. Do you want to know why I came to this conclusion? Read the argument yourself, it's pretty self-evident.

We can throw VGT plugging his fingers into his ears in a distinctly "lalalalalalalalala I can't hear you" fashion in his latest refusal to refute my case onto the case against him, by the way.

[Kilgamayan]

Just in case there's any confusion:

VGT has posted a lot and said absolutely nothing meaningful

This is the argument I am standing behind. This is what I would like refuted instead of danced around.

[Vibri]

Your case is that I haven't done anything.  My response was that I tried to do something by posting my thoughts about the Anthony thing and then asking questions.  pesco kept bugging me about my early post so I tried to deal with it and move on.  That's all there is to that story.

[Kilgamayan]

And asking questions != providing opinions. Asking questions is not doing anything meaningful, because no one can get a read on what stances you hold. Providing opinions does. The "I think ______ is scummy because ______" approach that you mentioned before is used because it provides opinions that can be read into.

The only opinion about the Anthony situation I can find is "anything after 2 jokevotes on the same guy is kind of weird" which is meaningless for scumhunting purposes. The rest of it is either asking questions or straight-up journalism.

So no, you haven't done anything meaningful.

[Pesco]

Let me make a quick summary of shit that I recall from my brief read.

Rou: Why is the THIRD vote on me so specifically a scummy point? You've brought this up as an issue against Anthony. Why is it only the third vote and not the fourth or fifth.

You know damn well what my time zone is. I just got up and you want to call me for not posting. Shit grasping is shitty.

I didn't bring up the argument with Pesco as a point in my case - I'm willing to put that down to Pesco being sort of a jerk (a jerk who, by the way, needs to start talking again). I was focusing on the apparent conflicting views on Anthony, which have been clarified.

Nice one. Play victim before I even start being a jerk.

Briefly remind us why your vote is on Anthony.

Suwako: Cut the crap. If you can't post decent content, let Kanako take over. I know you two are hydra.

VgT:

Your case is that I haven't done anything.  My response was that I tried to do something by posting my thoughts about the Anthony thing and then asking questions.  pesco kept bugging me about my early post so I tried to deal with it and move on.  That's all there is to that story.

The summary point I see now is that we don't like how you dealt with our exchange. If I pressing at a misunderstood point, you didn't try rectify it before it got out of hand. You respond to a serious question about your joke with another joke.

##Unvote
##Vote VgT

[FinnKaenbyou]

What irks me the most about the argument is posts like this and this. They look almost designed to antagonise, and the fight is getting sort of petty between them, so I'm wondering what the odds of scum/scum are.

Rou: Why is the THIRD vote on me so specifically a scummy point? You've brought this up as an issue against Anthony. Why is it only the third vote and not the fourth or fifth.

I thought that was how the meta call went on the MS wiki - third on the wagon is most likely to be scum.

Yeah, I'm gonna stop looking at Mafia until I get some goddamn sleep. This fatigue isn't helping in the slightest. >_>

[Suwako Moriya]

Hey, like I said, I gotta shrine to run, don't expect more than one or two posts per (real) day outta me.  Not like anything more than that is useful anyhow.  Kids these days and their newfangled "page 7 by tomorrow!" nonsense?  I ain't readin all of that.  All these pyokosts don't mean nutthin, just a lotta catfights and going in circles.

I like circles.  Hoops, you know?  They really give the limbs a workout. 

Oh yeah, they're also implements of war.  People tossin hoops'n goin with the dragging on, that's not very pyoko at all.  Willing to vote VGameT because he posted a wall on day 1, not particularly enthused though so I'll stay on Pesco for now.

[Pesco]

Don't like how Rou jumped on him and waved aside his explanations as invalid, using the all-too-common "it's not noobish, it's scummy and anti-town" argument. This might be a case of "too Rou to be scum", but I'm kinda paranoid of people manipulating their meta, so I'm keeping my suspicion on him.

pesco, however, seem worse for the time being. He jumps on the Anthony wagon as well with the same kind of throwaway reasoning, then proceeds to FoS (ugh) and press VgT on a mere technicality. It's particularly bad because we've already seen people referring to past games before without giving links, and now you suddenly decide this is scummy.

Don't see much of a case on UK's actions at face value. Her prod and unvote seems to be exactly what to expect from a sensible player when coming upon a newbie mistake. Of course, she could be trying to act like a proper player (paranoid, remember?), but I don't see scum intent right now.

Raise a paw if this is classic Neitzisalwaysscummy. o/

I facepalm at Rou. Vig this one before LyLo kthnx.

Suwako, get off the phone. I want to talk to Kanako. Vig this one tonight.

[Affinity]

wtf if I weren't around Suwako people would be dying by now and if you weren't here nothing would happen so yeah you don't deserve to run a shrine in favour of saying something about this game.

---

@Kitten4:

Well, fair enough, but my case on u-mu is not merely on him having a weak case, more of taking things out of context and playing around with words and the RVS thing that I don't think should even vaguely point to Roukanken being scum.  It's also one thing to voice opinions, and another to force them on people without elaboration, which is what you seem to be doing in your post.  You can't have your cake and eat it, though I don't know what that means.  Furthermore, you're just having a glancing view of things without any real explanations; mafia is not the spectator sport you make it out to be.

Though, to be honest I have to admit that Rou's newest post about 'third on the bandwagon' totally feels like an extremely blind application of 'theory' and 'statistics', and is not what I expected him to say at all.  I thought it was an observation.  Still, there are more than adequate reasons for voting Anthony, and a bad one mixed in with adequate ones isn't that bad a thing to be voting for over Eliphas in my opinion.

---

As for VgT, I would like you to clarify on this statement you made:

You basically can't tell the difference between a new townie going "I give up, I can't do or say anything, when I flip you'll all feel dumb" and a new scum doing the same thing. 

Then what do you propose to do to catch Anthony if he is scum?  And also, if someone were to accuse you of scummy, opportunistic, late bandwagon jumping on the virtue of you not voting anyone beforehand, what would you say?  While I'm all for screwing defending in favour of offense, and not getting bogged down by what you did and what you did not do, I'm not very appreciative of your tone of voice nor your playstyle.

[Edible]

Vote Count: Rou's tears sustain me :d
VGameT (4) - Kiro, Kilgamayan, Eliphas, pesco
Pesco (2) - Suwako Moriya, Nietz
Anthony (2) - Roukanken, Kitten4U
Roukanken (2) - u?, UncertainKitten
UncertainKitten (1) - Zakeri
u? (1) - Affinity

[Pesco]

9 to lynch right?

Right.  Still over 48 hours remaining, by the way.

[Vibri]

The summary point I see now is that we don't like how you dealt with our exchange. If I pressing at a misunderstood point, you didn't try rectify it before it got out of hand. You respond to a serious question about your joke with another joke.

I said it was a joke in my first response, as well as saying if you could get me to the old board archives I could link you to it, since that was apparently what you wanted.  I guess you missed the first bit until later on when I had to point it out again.  I'm partially to blame since I didn't make it clear originally, but you pressed it quite a bit.  If you wanted to know my opinion on Anthony or Rou, you should have asked directly instead of demanding I provide evidence for some random thing I remembered from a while ago.  I guess we both missed each other's point.

Suwako, I think you're missing a premise somewhere.  I did make a long post, but I'm not sure how that specifically makes me scummy, or moreso than anyone else who posted a lot so far.  As for the rest of your post, if you're implying that you have a limited amount of posts per realtme game dictated by your role, you shouldn't waste them.  The same thing I said to Kilga applies to you.  Posting little and saying you're too busy to read through everything is fishy.

Prod to Anthony.  You haven't posted much of anything since the heat fell off of you.  I guess it is 12am on a weeknight, though.  I've been up for about 27 hours, so I should probably go lie down.  I hope there are lots of interesting posts waiting in the morning!

oh a new post.  Let's get to this first.

As for VgT, I would like you to clarify on this statement you made:

Then what do you propose to do to catch Anthony if he is scum?  And also, if someone were to accuse you of scummy, opportunistic, late bandwagon jumping on the virtue of you not voting anyone beforehand, what would you say?  While I'm all for screwing defending in favour of offense, and not getting bogged down by what you did and what you did not do, I'm not very appreciative of your tone of voice nor your playstyle.

My point was about what was happening right then, which was some people piling onto Anthony and him kind of flailing around and saying "I don't know what to do."  If he bails on the game entirely like I said in that quote, you can pretty much read into it either way.  I don't think a case for either side could really be argued invalid, so you would have to either lynch him or scan him or in some way use the game mechanics to reveal his alignment.  But he's not really a target anymore, so I'm assuming he'll act differently.  You can read into what he does after that, since it's no longer a case built out of one incident where he screwed up and the game rapidly turned against him.  I just wanted to warn against everybody getting in his face, since it's tempting for new players to resign if things look really bad at the moment.

As for point 2, I don't really throw votes around like everyone else does.  I've always considered it as like saying "I'm down with this guy dying, right now," so I like to leave it be until everyone's posted and I can think about things properly.  I think it's only an issue if I do as you say and jump on a late bandwagon with no forewarning.  I don't think I'm keeping my suspects list secret, and I don't plan on surprise voting late in the day, but if you think the way I act is scummy you should say so when it happens.

Another long post.  I blame Affinity.  This'll be the last one for the night.

[ES-Anthy]

So far the whole case on VgT seems based on the whole thinking back to a previous game, which honestly seems like a crap reason, since people started to suspect him on just that, he defended with longer posts to just get people off his case but then it just led to more suspicion, overall what I'm saying is that it's a crap reason.

Now for the whole noobtown or noobscum case against me only has a bit behind it's self, that being that rou leaning towards scum due to one mistake which he views as a scummy move, and with the whole being forced to hunt, it was either just starting to hunt, or do nothing at all, which the later of the two would just make me look even more scummy, so I started to hunt, even if my attempts were crap swings and bad ideas, I was at least attempting to get something out of this, with Rou holding tight onto this case, I'm starting to honestly lean towards Rou possibly being scummy trying to get me lynched to keep their numbers high, overall the only hunting I've done is crap, since I can't find much else, and Rou's case on me is crap for holding onto basic beginner mistakes, which is why I'm starting to think he's scum, so

##Vote:Roukanken

also before people start going on about the whole 'holding back my vote' lead, it was because it would have just led to more crap due to me voting for a bad reason, and now I have at least decent, if not minor reason to vote for someone

[ES-Anthy]

Also, I just remembered the decent amount of people who have been inactive, with that there's a good possibility most of the scum is hiding out in there to keep the heat off of them, and let us just fight amongst ourselves, so I'm just throwing out that anyone who ends up coming in late has a better possibility of being scum.

[Hououin Kyouma]

WTF... one day of not logging in and this happens.

[ES-Anthy]

Going out now, going to be gone for around 8 hours or so.

[Serp]

Well, looks like Anthony is setting himself up as the obligatory D1 newbie policy lynch.  Not that it needs to be said again, but his switch off Pesco and the subsequent reasoning were both bad.  It's consistent with newbie kneejerk panicking, but it sure as heck doesn't make him look more townie.  Pretty much everything since then has just been him trying to make himself a less likely lynch, which of course doesn't make me less likely to consider him a viable lynch.

UncertainKitten's clearing of Anthony looks bad because there's really no reasoning behind it.  If Anthony is town, then this move could be scum trying to get town cred by saying "I told you so" after his flip.  Gut town reads are trash, and gut scum reads aren't much better.  Nietz falls into the same fallacy.

The Anthony wagon sucks. It started in what looked a lot like a innocent newb mistake, he got proded for it and reacted pretty much like an innocent newb would.

How would you expect a guilty newb to react differently?

Suwako's flaunting of his lack of contribution is so flagrant that I can see why everyone's hoping it's a post restriction.  We'll have to see how it turns out.  I also don't like Kilga looking like he's trying to put in the minimal effort possible, then handwaving it by claiming in 148 that he's usually right so he doesn't need to explain his thought process.

VgameT has a lot of words out there now, but most of them are just justifying his own actions along with a few pretty weak prods.  There's a lack of solid opinions on other players' scumminess.

It's true that I haven't seriously voted for anyone, but that's how I play.  I don't press people with votes, I press with questions, and leave the votes for people I would actually like to see lynched.

This is an anti-town way to play.  You might be able to set your thoughts straight on who's scummy and who's not, and then help them get lynched at the end of the day, but it makes it much harder for others to follow your own opinions and get a read on you.

Alright, after my reread, I'm seeing Anthony acting just like Zengar did last game.  Make an early faux pas, catch a little heat for it, do some waffling/random suspicion slinging, and then when prodded to place a vote, drop it on some weak throwaway case.  If there's no distinguishing it from newbscum, it's probably newbscum.

##Vote: Anthony

VgameT is a close second for squriming around and doing everything but scumhunting.  UncertainKitten and Nietz are probably tied for my terciary lynch due to gutclearing Anthony, which looks bad however he flips.  I'll blanket cover the other cases by saying that none of them are good enough to earn my vote, nor bad enough to be scummy.

[Kilgamayan]

So far the whole case on VgT seems based on the whole thinking back to a previous game, which honestly seems like a crap reason, since people started to suspect him on just that, he defended with longer posts to just get people off his case but then it just led to more suspicion, overall what I'm saying is that it's a crap reason.

No..

I also don't like Kilga looking like he's trying to put in the minimal effort possible, then handwaving it by claiming in 148 that he's usually right so he doesn't need to explain his thought process.

This is hilariously off the mark. That post was in response to VGT handwaving me in the first place with his "I don't care what you have to say because if you're not reading every single thing you're probably wrong" when the things I said I didn't read had nothing to do with my opinion on him. How did you miss this entirely?

[?q]

MotK Mafia:  Dare to go to sleep.

-----

I agree with Pesc(9) that Nietz107.5 looks like Scum Radio.  While the point against Pesco isn't terrible (in regards to suspicion due to VgameT not checking his sources), the rest of it is weak "well yes this person did something scummy, but newbcard/meta/ambiguousconspiracy lets me park my vote elsewhere".

All of this talk about post restrictions probably needs to stop.  Now.
I'm fairly confident that each person that wants to is speaking in character.
Which means that you can stop giving S.Moriya a pass any time now.

Seriously, everyone ALWAYS says "more newbscum than newbtown" every time they vote a newbie.

No.

It's true that <insert suspicious behavior here>, but that's how I play.

Don't say this again.  Ever.

I can't remember, is this meant to be a Bastard Mod game? Because if it is then we have a level of mod WIFOM on our hands...T_T

Again, don't say this again.  Ever.

I thought that was how the meta call went on the MS wiki - third on the wagon is most likely to be scum.

Notice that I already said this about 75 posts ago.
Do you understand why the wiki says that?

my case on u-mu is not merely on him having a weak case, more of taking things out of context and playing around with words and the RVS thing that I don't think should even vaguely point to Roukanken being scum.

^{[[modcolor]citation needed[/modcolor]]}
Other people seem to be seeing the same things I am, so.

Why is VgameT continuing to not express opinions on people?  Kilga and everyone else have pretty blatantly told him to do so.

Anthony's OMGUS on Rou is pretty lol.  Count the number of 'I's in that case versus the number of 'Rou's, 'he's, and 'his's.  He's not a bad lynch, but I'm not going to join the wagon yet.

I can understand the hate on VgameT for reasons everyone has already said, but I think Nietz is a more compelling target right now.

##Unvote: Roukanken
##Vote: Nietz (L-8)
Rou isn't off the hook yet.

------

Then the easiest solution would be to make sure that newbies are at least competent before they show up here. I remember Zak (I think) saying we should get people to play one Newbie Game on MS before playing here, and recently with KGH and Zengar I'm growing more and more convinced that that might be a good idea.

You overestimate ms's Newbie games.  Or underestimate MotK games, but the point seems to be that you don't want newbies in your Mafia, so.

Going to school early soon in hopes of being able to learn how to do the homework that's due at 5 today.

[Kilgamayan]

^ This is how you write a Day 1 wall, people. Take notes.

[Pesco]

Dig up Bamboo Forest from the dark depths for us Kilga. I know you can.

[Affinity]

@u-mu:

However, when you choose to start being serious is worth looking at.  To that end, if you're going to say something like HAY JOKE DISCUSSION ENDS NAO, I would expect you to have a solid backing behind it

Really?  I mean... really?  This is a question of semantics.  Also, how does ignoring one possible scummy point on Anthony make Rou any scummier (e.g ignoring the defense in favour of the vote)

As for, Kitten4u, I would like to see more elaboration on why you don't agree and why you do agree other than just saying stuff.  For now, she's to me slightly scummier than the likes of VGameT and Nietz, the case on u-mu seems to be fading away a little with all this new material and his actions.

##Unvote
##Vote: Kitten4u

[Serp]

This is hilariously off the mark. That post was in response to VGT handwaving me in the first place with his "I don't care what you have to say because if you're not reading every single thing you're probably wrong" when the things I said I didn't read had nothing to do with my opinion on him. How did you miss this entirely?

I saw that, but it's not relevant to my gripe.  You were excusing yourself in advance for not reading others' posts, and for not making a whole lot of posts yourself, using some pretty bad self-meta.  This is a sixteen player game, so there's going to be a lot more text to read through, but that also means that staying below the radar is a lot more attractive to scum.  It doesn't render any cases you make worthless, but it makes you yourself look scummier.  Consider this a finger of suspicion.

[Nietz]

Is that enough yet?

No, you're just doing that thing when you keep repeating the points people are arguing against like it would make them more valid.

While I'm here it is beginning to feel like the "throwing shit and seeing what sticks" tell is Rou's tatic at the moment. I like my vote more.

Funny, that's exactly how I'm seeing pesco. He jumped on the newbwagon and then immediately FoS'ed VgT on a bullshit point. When he comes back and VgT's case has actually gone farther than Anthony's, he switches to it. And now a meta bait on me that umu actually takes.

I still need to try and read through the whole VgT/Kilga exchange.
Don't really see any vote restriction excuse on Suwako, to me that's just plain active lurking.
Umu doesn't look good. a long waffly post and parks a vote on me out of nothing... accusing me of parking a vote on who I find scummier?

Don't see any reason to let go of pesco so far.

[Pesco]

what would have you done if it was someone else who voted 3rd for pesco?

Rou answer this.

Irritated at a newb for making back-to-back newb mistakes?

Irritated because at least one of these mistakes is clearly scummy, while the other is anti-Town.

Anthony posts...and his idea of hunting is more or less an OMGUS on me. T_T

Explain which is which and why. This looks like dodging the question Anthony asked you.

More voting needed instead of waffles

Kilga - opinions on UK?

You could ask him to give an opinion on me too ya'know.

Suwako's 'No real reason to move' does not entail to 'A reason to stay'. Bad linguistics are scummy. Notes appended to the post.

Tengulicious and I'd like to see you do more to show us your alignment.

So you blame me huh?

While I'm here it is beginning to feel like the "throwing shit and seeing what sticks" tell is Rou's tatic at the moment. I like my vote more.

Funny, that's exactly how I'm seeing pesco. He jumped on the newbwagon and then immediately FoS'ed VgT on a bullshit point. When he comes back and VgT's case has actually gone farther than Anthony's, he switches to it.

The act of jumping on Anthony and FoSing VgT as one action is the only way it can be done. I don't have 2 votes. Here I already said I wanted to vote him.

And why would it be so wrong for me to vote accordingly when the game state shows such a switch is valid?

Notes on Linguistics are attached.

[Kilgamayan]

I saw that, but it's not relevant to my gripe.  You were excusing yourself in advance for not reading others' posts, and for not making a whole lot of posts yourself, using some pretty bad self-meta.

Which self-meta are you referring to?

- If you're referring to "I was 2/3 last game" thing, that was a joke designed to barb back at VGT's hilariously incorrect and inflammatory post. In addition, "excusing yourself in advance" implies I guessed he would do that.
- If you're referring to "I missed UK's case switch last game", I'll admit right now that I largely skim or outright ignore walls regardless of my alignment. UK told me to "deal with" her walls, so I pointed out that I had been dealing with it for quite some time.

This is a sixteen player game, so there's going to be a lot more text to read through, but that also means that staying below the radar is a lot more attractive to scum.

Then maybe people should stop posting walls on Day Fucking 1! It's a lot harder to "fly under the radar" when town doesn't give scum a radar to fly under.

I forgot to point this out earlier. I've flip-flopped on Youmu - his most recent post is a massive step up from his Roukan case.

[Kiro]

VgT: You think you're going to get out of this loop with Kilga if you don't place a vote on anyone? He thinks you're scum and is voting you while you think he's scummy, but have no vote on him. You're not adequately explaining what's holding you back on that or on pursuing anybody else. We're in the middle of Day 1 now, we need some stances from you and the weight of a vote so that you're accountable for it.

Rou is getting weirder for a bunch of speculation and that 3rd vote thing. I'm surprised you tacked the latter on along with it being in the MS wiki in #157. Especially because this is in regards to an RVS wagon where people of either alignment can and do intentionally jump on wagons to stir up discussion. You tacking this on as a justification after the fact Anthony backtracked looks like you're padding a case that doesn't have much else spurring it along.

None of the recent switching of cases has really convinced me to move away from VgT or possibly Roukan although the lack of input from people like Suwako and Tenshi can change things.

[Edible]

Vote Count: I'm Really Happy For You, I'll Let You Finish
VGameT (4) - Kiro, Kilgamayan, Eliphas, pesco
Pesco (2) - Suwako Moriya, Nietz
Anthony (3) - Roukanken, Kitten4U, Serpentarius
Roukanken (2) - UncertainKitten, Anthony
UncertainKitten (1) - Zakeri
Nietz (1)- u?
Kitten4U (1)- Affinity

A little under 48 hours remain.