An Untitled Mafia - Game Over

[Kilgamayan]

Thanks for clearing that up.

##Vote: NekoNekoRex

So I'm thinking that Dan being a Miller meant that scum would want him alive as a distraction for as long as possible. NNR's suggestion to have claimed-vig-DNA take care of him overnight not only had the major issue I mentioned previously not not taking into account potential strategy-ruining night actions, but it's a plan where Dan survives for a day while also not forcing NNR to say (and subsequently explain) that he believes the miller claim. This jumps out ahead of all other approaches to Dan's claim as the likeliest scum approach.

Would vote Zak for everything I said yesterday attached to now voting based on a Day 1 action and not updating said case in almost 24 hours despite apparently being fairly active in the thread (an action he easily could have noted on Day 1 when he was active!). Also making a list of people you're irritated with for not contributing when you spent an entire game day not contributing (before finally contributing something based on reading less than half of the game) is still super uncool to the point where it's passive-aggressively inflammatory.

Would vote IHNN for how he reacted to Dan's claim, as stated before. It was very noncommittal and left him wide open to watch how the day unfolded and eventually move to whichever opinion was more beneficial for him to have.

Could be swayed to vote Sky. The thing I pointed out about his Day 1 unvote (the thing Zak picked up on today) still stands. Also:

I specifically mentioned DNA because I'm pretty sure he's scum and I wanted to see what new and creative lie he would come up with this time. 

This reads really hard like a flippant non-excuse scum would invent due to not being able to explain they weren't paying attention to what their alleged scum reads were doing.

Will take some time later to decide what I think of Schezo and DNA. I should havbe taken a nap hours ago.

[Kilgamayan]

NR's suggestion to have claimed-vig-DNA take care of him overnight not only had the major issue I mentioned previously not not taking into account potential strategy-ruining night actions

*of not

[I have no name]

Responding to stuff that happened since I left for the night.

Before I start.  If I was a thing to IHNN he'd have voted me by now but he doesn't give a fuck so here we go.

Because I had pretty much no time as it was-barely even had time to respond to the point.  Dropping a vote was not the first thing on my mind.

Why are you saying it's null then saying it's bad?  Fucking pick one.

Acknowldging a mistake is null.  Saying "I can hardly argue that everybody must be scum.  Therefore I must be wrong." rubbed me the wrong way.  It's not the action, but the way the action was gone about.

To be honest, I'm kind of peeved at the number of people saying "Ehh, I'll figure it out later" And then keeping their vote in their pocket. Nameless, Serela, Kilgamayan, and to a lesser extent even Schezo have blown off the start of the day while I've been trying to catch up with the game.

I didn't say "I'll figure it out later", I said I had no time that night.  That was true, and then I wasn't around at all until now.  (Which is almost 24 hours later but it's a thing that happens around Thanksgiving!)

Ohhhh boyyyy, Sky with allllll the bad logic.

I'm sorry, I should have colored myself black, because I don't know my own role.  OF COURSE I COLORED IT GREEN.  What, did you want me to do it like this?

How does that help us?  Oh great, I guess it does give away who I think the scums are, and by coincidence, they are voting me day 1 again.  Goddamnit people.  My first game, scum voted for me day 1.  My second game, scum voted for me day 1.  My third game, scum voted for me day 1.  Please get a new strategy.  This is getting old.

Assumes 3 scum, assumes Dormio isn't, assumes no SK (which Dormio could have been jan-killed by SK or as SK: not saying rolespec is good here but that there's *so many* possibilities  at this point not much can be drawn).  The thinly veiled AtE at being scumdriven wagon 3 games in a row?  Weren't you a D1 wagon 3 games in a row?  Statistically, wouldn't that make it likely that scum were voting you D1?  Aside from the fact that you have my alignment wrong (so I -know- this entire section is spacefilling BS), it's like your SB vote: we voted you for finding you scummy, THEREFORE WE ARE LYING SCUMBAGS.

I mean, it's obvious that town needs to have a role that can kill somebody and hide their color and role...Liar, you lie!  There is no possible feasible way that this is a townie role.  This is such a bold faced lie I had to reconsider my scum picks...This is a janitor ability, right?...Of course it's a scum role.  OF COURSE ITS A SCUM KILL. Scum don't kill their own dudes, right?  I think that's a fair assumption...So of course Dormio is green.  There's no other reasonable conclusion. 

Holy walloftext on bad logic.  So, let's just poke all the holes in this.  All of them.  1: does not consider possibility of SK. 2: does not take into account that Dormio could be anything but town, when as above he could have been scum shot by SK or SK shot by scum. 3: "Scum don't kill their own dudes".  Though usually true, I know there's been at least one game here where scum has self-killed as a gambit, to clear one of their own as town vig or something.  Serela can probably give more details on tihs I think he was the one supposedly cleared.
But that isn't what's worst about this block, since anyone can use bad logic.  It's the conclusions and actions drawn from it that make this block scummy.
1: "This is such a bold faced lie I had to reconsider my scum picks."
Though I may be reading Schezo as scum, it doesn't mean he's wrong on everything.  Reconsidering scumpicks (also, assuming you've caught the entire scumteam at any point in the game is A Bad Thing) because of 1 statement that isn't "I AM SCUM PLZ LYNCH ME" or something to that effect is, to me, scum realizing they need to have an avenue open to jump to Schezo (why?  Because all 3 scumpicks are town, maybe, and this could become more clear as the game draws to a close?).  It's just a very bad reason to move a vote.

2: "I think you are a smart guy but if you want to entertain any other possibility that Dormio was town then I am forced to consider you as less than a smart guy.  This is pretty painful coming from the guy with the Cirno avatar, but there you are."
3: "Why do I feel like I have to hold people's hands to get through this, ugh..."
Insulting the intelegence of the other players, smart plan.  The last line especially reeks of 'scum' superiority.

On night 1, there was two hits, and the doctor saved somebody.  That means the doc knows somebody who is definitely town...if there's a doc. 
Or it means night 2, somebody in town got a bit trigger happy. 

Stop rolespec.  Even if there were 2 shots&BT dying from Weak, nothing says scum+SK couldn't have shot BBM, or one of them shot an already doomed BT.

#1 - We know Dormio was not scum because that is retarded. 
#2 - We know there are three scum because it is not LYLO today.  There are nine players.  If there were four scum, today is LYLO.  Therefore, there are three scum.  Technically there could also be two. 
#3 - But since you're my top scumpick, I'm pretty sure you know exactly how many scums there are. 

Already explained why #1 is not impossible. 3 scum is very likely at this point-though if Dormio was scum or not isn't really relevant to that point.  #3 is ummm...weird.

Why Zakeri is scum:
#1 To be fair I skimmed his posts and it is popular for scum to vote for me on day 1...That's actually the strongest point against him being scum, ironically. 
#2 - Zakeri literally didn't show up in any kind of force until his neck was on the line in the last six hours of day 2. 
#3 - Zakeri refused to role claim and had to get Serela to do it for him.  What the hell.  If you are town, don't get other people to do it for you.  Aren't you a towny?  If you're towny, make your own fucking defense!  Why make Serela risk his neck for you?  Now if Zak flips red, people are going to go 'Hmm well Serela is his buddy.'  No thank you.  Serela doesn't read scum.  That was an awful bus.  But you couldn't get IHNN to bus for you because he is your scumbuddy, the only hapless towny left in your thread was Serela. 

Skimming posts and not reading them and then calling someone your main scumread doesn't exactly reflect well on you.  If you're around and being wagoned, don't you defend yourself?  Since unless you're a Jester, being lynched is a detriment to you wincon, wouldn't EVERYONE try to defend themselves?
#3 is an awful awful awful awful awful misrep.  Zakeri did not want to claim, Serela and I sort of wheedled it out of him (and he confirmed my guess).  Serela posted it before Zak did to try to defend Zak since at the time, he wasn't posting.  Zak DID NOT tell Serela to claim it.  From what you're saying, having any other player defend you paints the defended as scum.  No one is going to draw that conclusion if Zak flips scum on Serela.  Saying I'm his scumbuddy and couldn't claim for him is also very bad logic since he didn't ask anyone to claim that!

#4 ...Like a really bad scum slip or he doesn't vote for a scum that flips.  You should do the same for me. 
#5 - Out of the people voting for Zakeri yesterday, two of them suddenly caught a case of dead.  Why didn't they shoot Kilga?  Because he is a confirmed townie and probably has the doctor on him. Why didn't they shoot Sky?  Because I have mystery box #3 and they don't know what it does so they are going to try and lynch me or kill everyone else instead.  But hey what's the very next thing Zak does? Whoops, it's a vote for Sky!  How fucking convenient. 
#6 - Let's go back to the start of the day.  No wait, let's go back to the end of day 2, because that's where the story starts. 

#4 relies on town being smart enough to not wagon town.  Spoilers: it doesn't happen.  The section that still means anything is still there-and this mega post has several what I would consider scumslips!
#5 relies on NKs to protect a scum (aside from the point that it's assuming Zak is scum).  SB was pretty much universally unsuspected and Dormio was scarcely suspected.  That they were voting Zakeri is irrelevant to how suspected they were.  Also spoilers: a lot of people suspect YOU as well, so voting you?  Not a scumtell.  Not shooting you?  probably not due to roles, but because either you're town and they think they can mislynch you, or because you're scum and wouldn't NK yourself.
#6 I don't even follow as anything other than OMGUS+confirmation bias.

I specifically mentioned DNA because I'm pretty sure he's scum and I wanted to see what new and creative lie he would come up with this time. 

More confirmation bias.  Besides, DNA claims everything under the sun regardless of alignment.

Schezo vs NNR...
All you've done all game is snipe at each other.  MAKE OUT ALREADY.  None of you are scum.  Focus on the real battle.

Why are they both town to you?

I said I would wait.  I would say twelve hours constitutes as 'waiting'.  Welp!  Time up! 

Sleep is a thing that exists you know.

- I think that Zakeri and Darkninjaabc should die first, just my personal opinion.
Lynch I Have No Name, since we all think he's scum, then go for associative reads.  Tip - It'll be DNA or Zak. 

Nice contradiction.  Also, everyone doesn't think I'm scum.  Do you think there are 2 scum in the QT?  Any reason you think DNA is scum other than his claim shenanigans?  How would me being scum imply DNA/Zak scum, and when you find out you're wrong, how does this affect your reads of DNA/Zak?

What do you think of my being disabled today as opposed to any of the other players who could have been, with 2 deaths still happening overnight?

##Vote: Sky Paladin

(post-postwriting close)
Well that came out a lot longer than I expected, but Sky's wallpost is just hilariously bad in both logic and content.  Top scumread right now.

[Sky_Paladin]

...really, we still have to go over this again?  Okay. 

Let's have a look at the post. 

Here you are. 

I saw people voting for Dormio in RVS.  It was getting pretty serious.  There were already four votes, and suddenly DNA and SB voted to make it six.  By this stage, DNA had already claimed ITP but I thought "It's probably a joke," but when he voted as well, I became suspicious. 

I thought it seemed likely that there was some scum involvement at that time, so I did what any towny should (or so I thought!) - I made a post about my suspicions. 

Instead of people looking closer at the analysis, SB voted for me.  At that time I thought "SB is defending Dark, who I think is suspicious.  I bet they are in league together."  So, I countervoted SB in a blatant OMGUS, picking SB when I should have gone with a vote on DNA since he was the one I actually suspected. 

Over the rest of the phase everybody piled on me.  Nobody said anything to further analyze the voting pattern or questioned anybody involved about it.  Apparently it was business as usual and it was wrong of me to question that.  I thought I was going to be lynched so I made that next post where I said I guess I was wrong and claimed. 

I haven't caught a scum yet in these games.  I was very excited coming off the edge of the previous game where I was right about Dormio and DNA.  So I thought I could be so accurate coming in at this early stage in the game. 

In the end, SB turned out to be town.  DNA, though, is questionable.  I think my reasoning was acceptable but nobody wanted to put in the effort to seriously analyze what they saw to be a joke phase.  I've never seen it as a joke phase.  Even if the townsfolk are just messing around, scum have to be aware of avoiding association and realising that people will be looking back on these votes many days in to the future.  That's why I hate the idea of 'RVS'. 

I withdrew my vote because I was going to be lynched otherwise.  I thought my case was good.  Nobody agreed with me.  On day 1, I made a new case on IHNN.  Nobody agreed with me, or there was too little time for it, and we lynched Raikaria instead. 
On day 2, I made a big case against IHNN, and a few people agreed with me, but the delicious temptation of Miller Dan was too good, and so we got a split wagon between Dan and Zakeri. 
On day 3, I made a big case against Zakeri, who is blatantly scum, but you are still considering to vote me, because on day 1 my first case was poor. 

We have yet to lynch a single person I have pushed for and instead lynched Raikaria at the behest of you (It starts here) and then Dan because that's the wagon pushed by, unfortunately ActionDan.  Your case was good but it was wrong.  ActionDan's case was bad and it was wrong.  My case was poor but if you think DNA is suspicious now, then my case was also not wrong.  It was weak then.  But it is a lot stronger now. 

And dammit, I'm not even trying to get a lynch on DNA, because I'm struggling so hard just to get the EASIEST of the three scumpicks lynched.  Zakeri is blatantly lying in thread about the time he has invested and wants to get a free pass out of jail because he is too busy.  Yet even though he still hasn't finished reading the thread by his own admission he just voted me because of the day 1 incident.  Which, by the way, is incorrect. 

The one who 'picked it up' was Silent Bananas.  Raikaria and a few others joined in; after my apology, Raikaria unvoted and you were the one to call that a scum read that eventually got Raikaria lynched.  Somehow despite investing 'two hours' into only the first seven pages of the game, not only did Zak get it wrong; but then you get it wrong saying Zak picked it up just now. 

Sigh. 

Why is Zak voting me?  He can't give a reason.  Why is DNA voting me?  He can't give a reason and even said his reasoning is uncertain but still didn't change his vote.  Everyone is suspicious of DNA and IHNN and Zakeri and yet I still have to make point out the connections and reasons?  Where are all the townies?  Oh that's right, they are dead.  They are dead because scum killed them!  BBM and ActionDan and Dormio, those three all pointed out suspicious people and now they are dead for it.  The only reason I'm still alive is because I have an ability they can't beat.  So what are they going to do?  They are going to try and lynch me.  Kilga, I know you are town.  Even if you don't believe me or don't trust me, you have to read the thread and look at the players.  Where are the scum reads?  What did people do?  I made one case too early that was on the wrong person, but on the second person is now *plausible*.  I made a case on IHNN when nobody was looking at him back in day 1, and then on day 2 despite the easy lynch of Dan the miller. 

I understand you are very busy but you are quickly becoming the only person I can trust here.  Everybody else gets killed. 

Mod clarification request:  The game is explicitly not bastard.  Does this mean there can be no ITP?

Because I feel like I am the only person who read the game instructions.  You can take it for granted that if I read the instructions, then I read all of DNA's posts, and therefore my statement about deliberately not acting when I saw the vig/cancelvig drama can at least possibly be true. 

Now I have to go to work.  I'll be back again before phase end.  I want to see some actual analysis of what people have done and where they have voted and so on and so forth.  I know that if my picks are right, then a towny was the one to lockdown IHNN on night 2.  IHNN can't lie about what happened because he was kicked out of the thread for the day.  I doubt scum would have sabotaged their own dude just to make a point - if it was scum, they would have knocked out Zakeri to shut down the whole QT. 

And cut by my third scumpick voting for me.

TOWN WAKE UP.  We had two kills last night.  What if scum can do it again?  TODAY IS POTENTIAL LYLO IF THERE IS A MISLYNCH AND TWO DEATHS TONIGHT.

[NekoNekoRex]

So I'm thinking that Dan being a Miller meant that scum would want him alive as a distraction for as long as possible. NNR's suggestion to have claimed-vig-DNA take care of him overnight not only had the major issue I mentioned previously not not taking into account potential strategy-ruining night actions, but it's a plan where Dan survives for a day while also not forcing NNR to say (and subsequently explain) that he believes the miller claim. This jumps out ahead of all other approaches to Dan's claim as the likeliest scum approach.

These implications irritate me beyond belief.
First off, I was very sure Dan was scum. Why wouldn't I? It was very well-reflected in my vote. He was scum who made a really awful (and convienent) claim to getting caught via crumb by the weak tracker, which he made all the more apparent by the one taboo of town, self-voting.
Dan's trying to wave the claim also pissed me off, trying to imply, I, NekoRex, the eternal Town Miller, doesn't know know how to play Miller roles, is simply absurd. I think I've had the role or a variant or claimed it 4 or 5 times since I've been here? That is pretty bloody often.

I don't know why it's such a crime I can't have a good idea, either. Yes, it wasn't a good idea in hindsight, but I thought it would be the best idea with what we knew. I took into the account the possibilities and risks I could think of and offered it. He was confirmed scum, so why not take the opportunity?
It's really bad that you think I need to stall to "keep from admitting I believed the claim". Why would I ever believe it? I have no reason to. That's horribly far fetched.

[I have no name]

TOWN WAKE UP.  We had two kills last night.  What if scum can do it again?  TODAY IS POTENTIAL LYLO IF THERE IS A MISLYNCH AND TWO DEATHS TONIGHT.

I'll either announce that it's possible for town to lose following a mislynch, or possible for town to lose without lynching correctly. Today is not *YLO.

They can't.

[Sky_Paladin]

Last thing---

If I am scum, where are my buddies?

Nobody has spoken out to support or help me in this whole game.  I'm completely on my own.  Zakeri at least has DNA and IHNN. 

I'm a little jealous :/

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Day 3.1 Votals
Sky_Paladin (3) - Zakeri, Darkninjaabc, I have no name
NekoRex (2) - Schezo, Kilgamayan
Schezo (1) - NekoRex,
Zakeri (1) - Sky_Paladin,
Not Voting (2): Cheez8, Serela

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 50 and a half hours.

[Cheez8]

Holy pineapples those posts are long.

Before I read stuff really thoroughly, Zakeri isn't really town in my book but I can tell he's at a point where I suspect him a lot for the way he claimed at the last minute to save his hide, and also how he's conveniently able to say he didn't even claim on purpose because Serela asked him about his role instead, but I'm also too uncertain to actually convince myself he's scum because his role seems important and there's always a chance he could be telling the truth. (Also I don't like entertaining the idea of Serela being on a scumteam with him since I haven't picked up anything scummy from Serela yet, but I have a lot of trouble seeing things work out the way they did if Zakeri was scum and Serela wasn't.)

I'm starting to wonder if I start wavering on people in this particular way anytime I find them suspicious and they've claimed a role. That would be pretty bad.

On the topic of Schezo's big post, most of it doesn't seem to make sense like it should. Maybe I need to go back and read the things he quoted in context, but aside from some small points here and there I really don't think it's convincing. It really bothers me that he says this:

Proof that you're wrong is that if you think IHNN's d2 play was acceptable then Jesus Fucking Christ.

when I don't see IHNN's D2 play as unacceptable whatsoever, aside from apparently contradicting his reasoning once or twice. Schezo makes it sound like IHNN is scum for sure and anyone who dares to say otherwise is totally suspicious too. It rubs me the wrong way. I guess it's something like, while it did nothing to convince me he's right, saying that still made me hesitate to oppose him or something.

I don't really know why anybody is putting any stock into what Darkie says because for all we know he could be any role. I wouldn't put it past him to be the doctor and still make those sort of pointlessly confusing claims. I kind of really hope he's mafia again, because otherwise he's making things more confusing and uncertain for his own team, and I would hope he has enough sense to avoid doing so.

Paladin "fixing" the votecount by making his name black and coloring three others red hahaha what
Even if felt like votecount analysis was reliable I'm pretty sure you're supposed to leave unconfirmed names black or something. I don't even know when he managed to become so certain that he knew exactly who the scumteam was but apparently he is! And then he follows up with applying what happened in previous games to this game and assuming the alignments are constant. Yeah, that's always fun.
I'm inclined to say the rest of his post is more or less logically sound despite being put off by both lingering doubts and the huge amounts of emotion he pumped into that post. I guess I suspect him a little less than earlier but I still want to re-read everything carefully before being confident in anything.

Little things afterwards:
I agree with Darkie saying Paladin isn't normally like this (from what I've seen, anyway) but I think the point has been made several times earlier that people can act differently in different games and still have the same alignment because of differences in how the game plays itself out.
Serela makes good points again, especially about Dormio's identity, and about Darkie. In fact I kind of wrote a lot of the same things and then scrolled down three posts and said "oh, okay then."
Paladin, why the heck would an ITP say they're an ITP?

Triple cut!
...Oh, another big one. Well, let's look at you.

Okay IHNN strikes me as being a little overzealous in defending Zakeri. At least it made me realize it's probably a lot more possible than I'm thinking for Zakeri to be scum without Serela being scum but a whole lot of that post feels like... I guess it would be confirmation bias? Or reverse confirmation bias? I get the feeling he's operating under the assumption Zakeri is town and starts jumping to conclusions based on that even though Zakeri is far from being confirmed. Lemme guess, Paladin and Zakeri are voting for each other.
...Yep.
IHNN, if Paladin's scum it's definitely for other reasons. It doesn't really help that a lot of the holes you're poking in his logic (outside of his terribad votecount analysis) are just bringing up possibilities that he didn't jump to.

Triple cut again. The level of thoughtlessness that Paladin is using kind of struck me off guard there. I mean, really, as early as his first point: "I saw people voting for Dormio in RVS.  It was getting pretty serious." Do you even know what you're saying? I'll have to reread the thread once I'm finally done catching up with the huge discussion posts but I'm pretty sure my lingering doubts about you were onto something.

NNR, I'd like to know which post you're quoting. I don't think I see that in any of the most recent posts, at any rate.

One Two final cuts. Not going to respond because dang it I want to read the thread already.

[Sky_Paladin]

Prims, Prims, Prims! Please heed my cry. 

Mod clarification request:  The game is explicitly not bastard.  Does this mean there can be no ITP?

Dormio's alignment re: serial killer kind of relies on this. 

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I don't consider ITPs bastard, so it's plausible for there to be one, but there isn't anything like Jester, Cult, etc.

[NekoNekoRex]

NNR, I'd like to know which post you're quoting. I don't think I see that in any of the most recent posts, at any rate.

Kilga's last post

[Sky_Paladin]

Thank you. 

Oh well, poo.  I have to go right now so I can't do anything about it at the moment. 

[Sky_Paladin]

Wait a minute

If there are three scums then the scum team can make one hit right?

If there was a serial killer or a vigilante (or anybody else who can make a hit) that would make for two possible night kills. 

IF there was a mislynch today and IF there were two kills tonight (serial killer or vig misses and hits town + scum hit) that would mean 6 players next day phase, game over, scum wins. 

Therefore since there's no *YLO today, there can be no more players with the ability to make hits. 

Does this rule out the possibility of a serial killer ITP type role? --gone

[Cheez8]

IHNN, if Paladin's scum it's definitely for other reasons. It doesn't really help that a lot of the holes you're poking in his logic (outside of his terribad votecount analysis) are just bringing up possibilities that he didn't jump to.

Probably should have also mentioned that there many of the possibilities that he jumped to, like Dormio being town, are fairly likely. Assumptions are good to avoid, but some of the ones you're poking holes through are actually fairly reasonable assumptions.

Jeez, that was supposed to be a brief post responding to the most recent stuff but every post was just as big as mine became for some reason.

NNR: Thank you.

more cuts yeesh.

[I have no name]

Probably should have also mentioned that there many of the possibilities that he jumped to, like Dormio being town, are fairly likely. Assumptions are good to avoid, but some of the ones you're poking holes through are actually fairly reasonable assumptions.

When a lot of the points are based off these assumptions when there are a lot of other potential outcomes, though, it makes the entire argument a lot weaker.

Does this rule out the possibility of a serial killer ITP type role? --gone

Even-night vig/SK or (as DNA fake(?)claimed) 2 shot could both result in a way for a shot to not be made N3.

[Serela]

DOES IT REALLY MATTER THAT MUCH WHETHER THERE IS OR IS NOT A THIRD PARTY

We haven't even lynched a single scum, so we have more important things to worry about then whether or not there might be an SK >:V I mean saying a few words about it is fine but actually fixating on it is silly. Even if we could practically confirm whether there is or isn't one, the knowledge wouldn't be helpful right now.

I'm still reading SkyPaladin as derptown, and Zakeri is depressiontown. He's (Paladin) having some reading comprehension issues that make me think of town really getting into a groove (whether or not it's a good groove) whilst scum would probably be paying more attention (so as to not make a slipup) and if they were doing this they'd be faking it (ala Darkie last game) but... oh wait this is an entirely meta argument >_>; Oh well. This was only a small part, it's more everything he's saying.

Darkie is literally unreadable and I'm okay with lynching him, but for the sake of a not-luckgarbage lynch and more information it's IMO definitely better to... oh yeah. I still need to organize those priorities. I actually have time to do it, now! Let's see.

Time to reread the game.

[Serela]

fuck I forgot to turn off the emoticons for that post

[Serela]

I actually don't mind NNR's first two days. They aren't particularly townie but they don't make me think that he's scummy either. Kilga says NNR misses Darkie's claim and that it's bad, which makes sense, but at the same time NNR wasn't actually pushing Darkie's lynch for d2 at all, and... well, I guess I'm quick to sympathize just because almost the entire playerlist missed the claim <_<; Anything related to Darkie is always odd, I'm too quick to handwave things in that area.

I don't really like his D3 though... but not to a gigantic extent? Mmn. I should read Schezo and IHNN again. Between these 3 and Darkie is probably all of the scumteam... right? >_>;

[Serela]

Nobody has spoken out to support or help me in this whole game.  I'm completely on my own.  Zakeri at least has DNA and IHNN. 

I drag him out of the d2 lynch practically against his will and parade him as a townread and I get -no recognition- </3

[Serela]

I keep forgetting that IHNN being disabled makes me think he's probably not scum. But I guess it could be a gambit?

...if they have a jailkeeper scum, that'd make more sense, too. Yeah, I should keep regarding it as null. It's bad to let role shenanigans influence you too much. That's almost always bad for town.

[NekoNekoRex]

Serela, you just said earlier you'd sheep Schezo for his case on me, without reading me, but now I'm "not so bad"? That seems kinda two-sided of you.


I'm not keen on reading all these giant text walls, blehhh.

[Serela]

Well yes, then I actually READ YOU

[I have no name]

Note: I asked Sky questions at the end of my post.  They were completely ignored.  Hmmmm...  :V
Further: you want to know where your buddies are, Sky?  Not associating to make associative reads not work.  It's a valid strategy.

DNA is  and should actually play mafia instead of spout non sequiturs.

[WHMZakeri]

hi, could you all please stop jumping on my for my untrained work ethnic, I know I'm a horrible worthless human being that has no meaning in existing, but i'd super appreciate it if you laid back a little on that while we're in the game thank you.

I have trouble seeing NNR as scum despite his mistake of trying to handle Dark's vig claim with any modicum of seriousness. I can understand the scum reasoning behind his actions, but the way he patched up and admitted it was stupid makes it look like he genuinely thought it would have been good for the town if it could have worked. The fact that his deciding it was a crummy idea was due to the tracker being dead instead of just pleading people to forgive him for his insolence points this direction to me.

Despite Sky's play on day one, and his play now on day three, I feel like his day 2 play is town-ish. He doesn't just subscribe to the Dan wagon all day like other people (*coughtelegraphing-my-vote-for-Schezo-cough*) He does attempt decent looking wagon analysis, and his switch from disbelieving to believing the miller claim on Dan does feel justified. The fact that he's claiming a cop result on Kilgamayan also turns his pandering to Kilga's opinion in 469 from scummy to null.

Speaking of telegraphing my vote for Schezo (wait did anyone actually say anything about that? Hmm I wonder). Schezo's reaction to the Dan case is pretty much textbook scum when a Miller gets caught offguard with a guilty. He just voteparks on him, and even goes as far as trying to deny that any other result was possible. He clearly wanted the day to have been wasted so much that he didn't even acknowledge that I was almost lynched. It literally took a screaming lunatic to prevent town from getting an alternative lynch (No offense Serela you're cool), so saying that there wasn't a point in doing any scumhunting on day 2 is just wishful thinking.

Schezo's 550 makes this worse. The entire first post is defending from NNR's case, bringing up a single post NNR made, calling it "The damning post". and votes him. This is really hilarious in juxtaposition to NNR's 554 in which he takes up Schezo's challenge to point out that Schezo isn't scumhunting or being helpful, and finds 6 damning posts.

His case on NNR is super weak, and it's super telling that he's trying to build up the Wagon on NNR rather than posting reads on people, or even attempting to make a more detailed case on nameless (Before you complain, the end of 550 is not making a case on Nameless, it's just more reactionary mudslinging).

##Unvote: Sky Paladin
##Vote: Schezo

I'm sad to say that Nameless reads null-leaning scum to me due to his lack of effort up until the past three or so hours. I'm willing to let this go because I can actually verify his explanation for why he was lackluster on day 2 (It was a pretty big thing, even though I never got involved with it directly).

[Serela]

Mmn. I'm not sure I see Schezo scummy either. Why am I doing this now I WANT TO HAVE A NICE SCUMREAD. In 287 he quotes the rules to try and bring a point against Dan. It feels like scum wouldn't do that because they'd know Dan most certainly wasn't lying, so obviously the official rules can't show that he is. But, well, that's probably a PRETTY SILLY REASON to not want schezo lynched I guess? >_>; If it weren't for that I guess I wouldn't mind lynching him...

funnily enough I also dislike his d3 kinda

A thought that "Maybe if d1 had been longer we would have had a stronger base to work off and the entire game wouldn't have become stunted like this" keeps running through my head, because I honestly feel like almost nothing has happened since BT died on ActionDan and started that chain of events- and the Zakeri development, too, I suppose. Oh whatever, complaining about it won't help.

cut by it's okay zak I know I'm a screaming lunatic when it's needed (and sometimes when everyone wants me to stop, too!)

Maybe I'm shitty at reading people the normal way this game. Maybe I should be treating my null reads as scum reads. I read other people's cases and think "wow I should sheep that!" but then I read the person myself and get a null read- and I'm only coming up with good town reads myself :T What Zakeri said about NNR supplements my own thoughts, though, and makes me feel more like not wanting to lynch him today. And, yes, again, I want to sheep his case. *Cough*

...well, yeah. I hoped to be cool and useful once I had the time to get into rereads, but again, I'm only being good at passive support talk and not actually finding any scum myself >_>; Just gonna kinda give in here since I think I've adequately analyzed everyone enough in my head that I can decide that, yes, I do still think my town reads are town reads, I don't quite want to lynch NNR, and that whilst Darkie is so very very tempting it's still just Darkie.

##Vote Schezo

[Serela]

(also yes, still thinking my town reads are town reads is significant in that it's over half the living playerlist, e.g. everyone I haven't mentioned)

[Serela]

honestly the worst thing I think IHNN has done is the OMGUS on skypaladin but it might only be that I think skypaladin still seems like derptown- I mean I guess I could understand someone thinking it's scum if they don't believe he's just bad town

but it also seems like scum partytime with a big attackable post to murderlynch him over

w/e

[WHMZakeri]

Hey let's make it clear Serela is my buddy so if I die, take him with me, right.
Zak

Hey, if I say Serela is town, I mean Serela is town, even if I'm scum.

Your defense is "it's not fair that Sky is lynching me when I haven't finished reading the game"

When

You were already voting for me from before you had finished reading the game.

That's a little thing we call...hypocrisy.

You have had the same time to read the game as everybody else. What makes you special?

You've actually got this backwards. Even though I wasn't finished, I knew people wouldn't be giving me the time to do so if I didn't have a post made and read at the start of the day with a vote, and so I rushed my vote out so it can get discussed.
So, of course, it's only natural that I'd be a little peeved that absolutely no one else thought it might be a good idea to rush their vote out at all and wait 8-24+ hours before doing so.
I'm pleading for time because I know I don't have it, but everyone else is wasting it luxuriously, like a begger denied a drink from a decorative water fountain.

I didn't mention Kilgamayan in my post above but in general, I think he's town. At the very least, I don't have a reason to doubt that he is.

Nameless picking apart Sky's post makes me happy, but it doesn't press me to change my opinion on him. He's definitely not top priority for me, though.

Why is Zak voting me?  He can't give a reason. 

I actually did give my reasons in the first post of day 3. I also kind of spent most of my posts responding to your actions with increasing the number of reasons.
-The backtracking on Serious Bananas, and that you couldn't put forth an alternative case.
-The amount of emotion you put into your case on me. It doesn't feel like town would have been as angry as your posts sounds.

Actually, it'd probably be better if I try to dissect the case you made on me, rather than just vaguely calling it a bunch of null points built up using emotions to justify it.

Why Zakeri is scum:
#1 - his net contribution so far amounts to 'lets vote for Sky because it was cool on day 1'.  To be fair I skimmed his posts and it is popular for scum to vote for me on day 1.  Curiously, Zakeri didn't.  That's actually the strongest point against him being scum, ironically.
#2 - Zakeri literally didn't show up in any kind of force until his neck was on the line in the last six hours of day 2.
#3 - Zakeri refused to role claim and had to get Serela to do it for him.  What the hell.  If you are town, don't get other people to do it for you.  Aren't you a towny?  If you're towny, make your own fucking defense!  Why make Serela risk his neck for you?  Now if Zak flips red, people are going to go 'Hmm well Serela is his buddy.'  No thank you.  Serela doesn't read scum.  That was an awful bus.  But you couldn't get IHNN to bus for you because he is your scumbuddy, the only hapless towny left in your thread was Serela.
#4 - Out of the people voting for Zakeri, three of them are confirmed town.  Of course you can say 'Well Kilga is only town because you said he is town, Sky. And your alignment isn't known'.  I know my alignment.  I know my cop result.  So I can colour them all green.  The end.  Is there another cop?  Do a check on me.  Oh it comes back green, they will still say "Well maybe Sky is the godfather".  Maybe Kilga is the godfather.  So many what-ifs.  I'm going to go with what I personally know until I see some compelling reason to distrust Kilga.  Like a really bad scum slip or he doesn't vote for a scum that flips.  You should do the same for me.
#5 - Out of the people voting for Zakeri yesterday, two of them suddenly caught a case of dead.  Why didn't they shoot Kilga?  Because he is a confirmed townie and probably has the doctor on him. Why didn't they shoot Sky?  Because I have mystery box #3 and they don't know what it does so they are going to try and lynch me or kill everyone else instead.  But hey what's the very next thing Zak does? Whoops, it's a vote for Sky!  How fucking convenient.
#6 - Let's go back to the start of the day.  No wait, let's go back to the end of day 2, because that's where the story starts. 

1. Basically amounts to "I just now started playing the game" which is everyone's reason.
2. This isn't a scumtell - both town and scum don't want to get lynch
3. I didn't ask Serela to defend me. In fact, I was against outting my role because I didn't believe it was worth saving me just to keep the quicktopic open. I already explained that Nameless dug the info out of me, and Serela posted it because he had a genuine town read on me that, to be honest, I don't even fully understand. Putting forth that I asked Serela to do it because he's the only townie in our group is confirmation bias and a strict misunderstanding that three people can confirm is not true.
4. The evidence behind the votes is only damning if we assume you and dormio are town, and even if we do, doesn't account for the entire scumteam being like Schezo and going with the easy, safe vote for the day. Of course only town was voting me because only town would take the time to scumhunt when there's low hanging fruit around.
5. I don't even understand what the point of this is. At first I thought you were just using NK theory to say "Of course Zak would want people that suspect him dead" which by itself isn't bad, but then you go off on a tangent that can only be supported by assuming I'm scum to begin with.
6. This is just a passive-aggressive retelling of point 1.

TWO FUCKING HOURS

YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT. 

This part of the post is what hammers it in. Shortly after this burst of AtE, he goes on to reword his first point again with more yelling and blatant accusing. The entire case on me has one, maybe two good points, and the rest is just angry flailing and confirmation bias for the sake of having more than half a paragraph on me being scum.

Even though I went through the trouble though, I still only have two points where Sky is scum, and all of day 2 fighting against that, so Schezo's lynch is still more pressing.

[WHMZakeri]

Mmn. I'm not sure I see Schezo scummy either. Why am I doing this now I WANT TO HAVE A NICE SCUMREAD. In 287 he quotes the rules to try and bring a point against Dan. It feels like scum wouldn't do that because they'd know Dan most certainly wasn't lying, so obviously the official rules can't show that he is. But, well, that's probably a PRETTY SILLY REASON to not want schezo lynched I guess? >_>; If it weren't for that I guess I wouldn't mind lynching him...

That's ... that's actually pretty valid when I look at the post, but I still want to argue that it's scum's job to get mislynches and that adding that would cement the case on Dan more even if it was bs.

Ugh, it's a horrible feeling trying to ignore evidence like this,