DEFCON Mafia Thread 2 (Game Over)

[Serela]

Non-town strategically lurking is fine, actual townies being super lurky and not really playing is what completely ruins it because you can't just lynch the scummy lurkers anymore. That being said, lurking until you get prodded (and especially past that) is bad regardless of alignment.

Cut by Bard being right. Part of the reason it's not so easy to do this is because of how many townies end up doing it now for whatever reason, and regardless of how bad it is, people don't want to play against their wincon and lynch someone just for not playing. The biggest issue is more people signing up who are going to lurk really hard regardless of alignment.

If you aren't going to post, don't sign up for a game. Seriously. (Lurking because it seems ideal for surviving as scum at present is different, especially since it's a tried-and-true way to survive on motk >>)

Other cuts:Not being lynched is good if you're town. Achieve this by not looking scummy, not by lurking so that you can look scummy but not get lynched because people won't lynch you for it. Townies lurking makes it harder for town to win because even if you don't end up a likely lynch, you're distracting people with how questionable it is, and you're giving scum someone to sit on as an easy vote.

NNR:Really, if something like that happens, I view it as more of a fault of the setup then the players. It's kind of like telling players that they're not allowed to do what they think is most ideal to achieve their wincon.

[NekoNekoRex]

To be fair I was trying to get shadoweh lynched for refusing to contribute or reply to posts in this game, alebit I was scum and not trying particularly hard.

EDIT: also I will probably end up editing that rule out at some point since it's not likely to be an issue

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I guess I should "Noclaim Mafia", where none of the roles are revealed and no one may even so much as HINT at their role's power. Of course, no one is vanilla, and everyone has gamebreaking powers.

LET'S SEE YOU TRY TO BREAK THE SETUP NOW FOLKS.

i actually have a set-up for that and mentioned hosting it on irc once, don't know if i ever will. nothing was gamebreaking though

[Pesco]

It's good to not get lynched as town only if you are actively finding scum. Otherwise sod off and die.

[Raikaria]

To be fair I was trying to get shadoweh lynched for refusing to contribute or reply to posts in this game, alebit I was scum and not trying particularly hard.

EDIT: also I will probably end up editing that rule out at some point since it's not likely to be an issue

And I was trying to get pretty much all the lurkers lynched.

Among them being 1 scum.

But yeah, lurking needs to stop, otherwise scum just hides in amongst the lurkers and the people actually trying to find scum [ie: me] get lynched because they're the only ones doing anything to even get reads on.

Even if we spend a couple of games just policy lynching lurkers to drive it through their heads.

[Schezo]

I swear this comes up every other game and no one ever does it.

[Bardiche]

You can't eliminate threats if you're dead

Except that surviving has been the townie wincon since Mafia as a game was created

You can't eliminate threats by not posting either. A veritable conundrum.

All Townies are always told in every Mafia game "you win when all threats to Town are dead", or something similar. None has ever said, "You win by being alive at the end of the game". If it does say that, you're a third party survivor, not a Townie.

Surviving by not playing the game is meaningless. If you aren't there to play to your wincondition, and your win condition is to lynch all scum, then you don't belong in a game of Mafia. If you honestly think that lurking and posting to avoid prods is good Town play, please don't bother signing up for Mafia─you're a detriment to the game, and you're mentally incapable of playing Mafia. It is not your game.

EDIT: Also, compared to lurkers, Serela is a shining God of proper Mafia Play, and you should feel horribly ashamed if I would rather have Serela in a game than you.

EDIT2: All you's are people in general, not someone in specific.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I swear this comes up every other game and no one ever does it.

we lynch px and rawr and whoever for barely playing like every other game and they never change. breaking wincon to do it every game instead as a "lesson" isn't really going to do shit, especially considering how much people complain probably means the players in question know their play is bad but just don't care enough to fix it

[Bardiche]

we lynch px and rawr and whoever for barely playing like every other game and they never change.

In that case, follow Kilga's example. Mods can just put up "DO NOT APPLY" notices, barring people who make the game less enjoyable from playing. If it will not learn from punishment, then it is a lost cause.

[NekoNekoRex]

You can't eliminate threats by not posting either. A veritable conundrum.

All Townies are always told in every Mafia game "you win when all threats to Town are dead", or something similar. None has ever said, "You win by being alive at the end of the game". If it does say that, you're a third party survivor, not a Townie.

Surviving by not playing the game is meaningless. If you aren't there to play to your wincondition, and your win condition is to lynch all scum, then you don't belong in a game of Mafia. If you honestly think that lurking and posting to avoid prods is good Town play, please don't bother signing up for Mafia─you're a detriment to the game, and you're mentally incapable of playing Mafia. It is not your game.

From a factional standpoint, yes, survival is not in the win condition for Town to win a game of Mafia. From an individual standpoint, however, avoiding kills from town aligned kill functions (ie the lynch, vigs) is of the utmost importance. If you're a townie your main goal should be making sure town doesn't waste their opportunities to kill by killing you. Of course, the secondary main goal is the more obvious "you have to lynch the scum to win".

Playing a game of Mafia can be summed up by the three main aspects you need to play the game in a successful manner:
1) Avoid getting killed by town by not looking scummy
2) Discern who the scum are using roles or scumhunting
3) Convince the other players your reads are the correct reads

Therefore ensuring your survival is a full third of what it takes to play Mafia. Lurkers get lynched (or vig killed) decently often, therefore lurking as town is a sub-optimal strategy to survival. Drawing the lynch on you is Playing To Lose.

[Polaris]

If you're a townie your main goal should be to hunt scum. If you hunt scum then everyone will see how town you are and you won't be lynched!!
If you lurk and do not hunt scum because "avoiding kills from town aligned kill functions is of the utmost importance" that is scummy as hell. `_`

[NekoNekoRex]

If you lurk you're drawing the lynch, because lurking is scummy. Therefore it's a bad idea. I never said anywhere that lurking and not hunting scum was a good idea and following your goals as a townie.


(in fact my last big posts have been against lurking)

[NekoNekoRex]

If you're lurking to avoid getting killed by town, you're only doing one third of Mafia play. If you are lurking and not playing, you are both not discerning who the scum are and not convincing town your reads are correct.

Therefore you aren't playing Mafia the way it is meant to be played.

[Polaris]

I was responding to the conversation in general, I guess `_`

But still, town shouldn't have to try to not look scummy. Only scum should have to try to not look scummy. Town will naturally not look scummy as long as they are sincere and they keep town's best interest in mind and at heart. :v

e: basically town is supposed to be the cliche anime protagonist that believes that justice will always prevail and that we should never lose sight of hope and that there will always be a happy ending as long as we work together and never lose sight of our goals

[NekoNekoRex]

As a townie you still have to make an effort to not look scummy, because the anti-town factions are still doing #3, convincing the town that their (fake) reads are the correct reads. Everyone is subject to the above three Mafia aspects regardless of faction, some just have different goals in mind while doing it.
Self-defense is an important aspect of Mafia play!

[Serela]

e: basically town is supposed to be the cliche anime protagonist that believes that justice will always prevail and that we should never lose sight of hope and that there will always be a happy ending as long as we work together and never lose sight of our goals

no wonder I'm generally good at looking pretty town

(this game was a little different because HELL YES NUKE EVERYTHING)

NNR:Self-defense is important but basically the main point is that town lurking is terrible and you still need to do the other parts of play as well

[NekoNekoRex]

no wonder I'm generally good at looking pretty town

(this game was a little different because HELL YES NUKE EVERYTHING)

NNR:Self-defense is important but basically the main point is that town lurking is terrible and you still need to do the other parts of play as well

Yes, this is exactly what I've been trying to state.

[Conqueror]

The best defense is a good offense.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Therefore ensuring your survival is a full third of what it takes to play Mafia.

I'd argue otherwise. Surviving means jack shit. It's all about finding the scumz yo.

[NekoNekoRex]

The best defense is a good offense.

Not addressing contention against you is scummy.

I'd argue otherwise. Surviving means jack shit. It's all about finding the scumz yo.

You can't find the scumz if you're dead.

[Serela]

Conq basically hits it on the head; in mafia, if you're trying really hard to find the scum (and I don't mean the kind where you read the thread five times and don't get anything) then THAT makes you look townie, generally. And looking townie makes you not dead, except for the ones who look so town that scum nightkills them.

Generally getting nightkilled is almost praise (Generally meaning, when it's not role shenanigans) because it means you were deemed the most threatening or most town looking.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

And your flip can't help other people find scum? Unless you're lurking hardcore in which case you're absolutely useless even in death.

[Polaris]

Not addressing contention against you is scummy.

I'd say defending yourself is scummier than not defending yourself `_`
I blatantly disregard people's cases on me all the time as town.

[Edible]

In the interest of sanity I'm going to lock this now <_<

Feel free to continue discussion of game mechanics in the signup thread!