~Beyond the Border~ => Rumia's Party Games => Mystia's Stored Games => Topic started by: Edible on September 15, 2009, 01:30:34 AM
Title: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Edible on September 15, 2009, 01:30:34 AM
Dammit, Yukari.
Heedless of warnings from the shrine maiden, the head of House Yakumo temporarily opened the border between The Real World and Gensokyo in order to improve tourism and the revenue of Border Corp?. Unfortunately, as she was being harrassed (read: spell cards) by Reimu, the border malfunctioned and instead of The Real World coming to visit Gensokyo, it was marauded by the denizens of that dark, terrifying subworld... The Internet.
The border has been fixed thanks to Reimu's intervention (read: spell cards), but now you have been tasked with ferreting out the few slimy meme bastards that still remain in your peaceful land. Little do you know that they've infiltrated your little hunting party, and have started taking you out from the inside... one by one.
And Reimu isn't around to pull your marshmallow out of the fire...
Welcome! This is scum-finding-and-lynching game. Insert coin!
1) All Days wil last 72 hours (3 days). If Town is in LYLO, the Day will last 168 hours (7 days). All Nights will last approximately 24 hours. Any and all Night Actions must be submitted within 24 hours of the moderator announcing the start of the Night phase. 2) Extensions are allowed, but only if a majority of living players vote to extend the day. There will be a maximum allowable amount of 1 24-hour extension per day, and no more than 3 extensions over the course of the game. 3) Thou Shalt Not Edit Thine Posts. Thou Shalt Not Change Thy Nickname During The Game. Thou Shalt Not Delete Thine Posts. I can tell who edits, deletes, or changes what, and I will come down on you like the fist of Suwako. 4) In the event of a tie, no Lynch will occur. In the event of a majority not being reached, no Lynch will occur. You may also vote to lynch No Lynch-chan, but she may only be lynched once. Don't bully No Lynch-chan. 5) Flavor and roles are completely unrelated, and roles were assigned randomly to all players. Don't attempt to correlate the two. 6) Dead players may "Bah!" post once. This post may be amusing, but must also be utterly useless in relevance to all players from an in-game perspective. Keep your opinions to yourself after you're dead. 7) Players may not contact any other player by any means other than in the game thread unless their role permits them to do so. This holds true whether you are alive or dead. 8) Players are expected to post at least once every 24 hours. Failure to do so will result in a prod PM asking you to show up in-game. If there is no in-game response 24 hours after the prod PM, a modkill will occur. 9) Scum may talk to each other during the day. No one is to discuss the game in the thread during the night. You may play forum games or react positively or negatively to a card flip, but you are not allowed to publicly analyze other players. 10) There does not exist any role in this game whose win condition is directly assisted by the death of the player with the role (such as a Jester). Players may choose to sacrifice themselves for the good of their team depending on the situation, but no role is inherently enhanced via death. There are also no roles with stupidly obscure win conditions (such as a Politician). 11) The rules are subject to change upon request and at my whim, depending on circumstances. I will invoke the Mafia Common Sense Policy here - if it's usually a no-no in games we play here, assume it is also a no-no in this game, or clarify it with me before doing it.
Role PMs will be sent out as the evening progresses. You may post in the thread, but please do not Confirm until you have received your role PM.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 15, 2009, 01:49:24 AM
First. Also dammit Edible, I demand to be named WITH my title!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 15, 2009, 01:51:22 AM
Oh damnation.
:3
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 02:33:00 AM
Oh hai thar.
Take Spirit: Eliphas
Now that that's out of the way
Vote: Edible
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Edible on September 15, 2009, 03:58:46 AM
I left a bunch of my role PMs at home in a text file, so forgive me if they seem a little sparse. I'm kind of strapped for time at the moment (wrote up everything on my break) ;_;
Anyway, role PMs are going out. Please confirm in thread.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 15, 2009, 04:05:55 AM
WHERE ARE THE PMS EDIBLE
YOU SAID THERE WOULD BE PMS
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 15, 2009, 04:08:16 AM
Oh there it is.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Edible on September 15, 2009, 04:08:35 AM
Jesus christ ;_;
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 15, 2009, 04:09:58 AM
<3
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: Kiro on September 15, 2009, 04:10:44 AM
Commence Confirmations!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Edibles are preparing, please wait warmly)
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 15, 2009, 04:34:16 AM
Confirmed.
Let's Rock.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 15, 2009, 04:42:36 AM
Confirmodo~
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Edible on September 15, 2009, 04:44:13 AM
Am I the only person who sees :suwakodwi: as :suwako driving while intoxicated:?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 04:48:08 AM
Confirmed
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Vibri on September 15, 2009, 05:54:28 AM
confirmed!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Serp on September 15, 2009, 06:18:06 AM
Confirmed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 06:32:10 AM
What colours are we not allowed to post in?
For purposes of this exercise I will stick to using shades of blue, such as this color - known to many as cyan.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 15, 2009, 07:12:00 AM
confirming
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Kitten4u on September 15, 2009, 08:36:49 AM
Confirmed
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 10:46:51 AM
Quote from: Edible
For purposes of this exercise I will stick to using shades of blue, such as this color - known to many as cyan.
I'm bluuue and cyaaaaan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co6OHe4KaEc)
Confirmed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Hououin Kyouma on September 15, 2009, 10:53:34 AM
confirmed
:V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Affinity on September 15, 2009, 11:52:59 AM
Confirmed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Nietz on September 15, 2009, 12:11:22 PM
I am confirm.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: ?q on September 15, 2009, 12:18:56 PM
Confirming <3.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 01:56:51 PM
confirmed.
Vote Edible
Title: Re: INVASION! (Please confirm <3)
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 02:02:46 PM
Yuyuko doll: Kilga ##Vote VgT
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1)
Post by: Edible on September 15, 2009, 05:18:21 PM
Dawn of the First Day
Pretty much everyone has confirmed at this point.
The time for girls preparing warmly is over. It's time to fight for your life!
Favouritism for targeting me over Kilga when Kilga started it. Vote stays.
Canon proof (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1519.msg65266#msg65266) of Rou being scum
here's an excert from the linked topic.
Quote
"When Kilga started attacking you, you switched away from me to vote him. Town Rou would be looking for any excuse to vote me - Scum Rou is too scared to try it."
If this is an accurate scum representation of Rou, then it means that if Rou were scum, he would drop his vote on Pesco. However, this is said in responce to Rou keeping his vote on Pesco. This Ironically means that said meta tell means Roukanken is Obv.Town, and that anyone voting for him, i.e. Pesco who has apparently observed this, is voting with intention to kill a townie.
##Vote: Pesco For intentionally killing town
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 15, 2009, 08:57:45 PM
CONFIRMED
##VOTE UMU
For good measure.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 15, 2009, 08:58:14 PM
Wait no
##UNVOTE
##VOTE ANTHONY
for good measure.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 15, 2009, 09:10:44 PM
##vote: Zakeri
your reasoning for voting pesco is faulty because you spelled response wrong.
also FoS:Edible? for repeatedly capitalizing the second letter of my name. what is a VGameT, anyways. some kind of VgameT mannequin that does not mean business.
Fixed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 15, 2009, 09:16:23 PM
##Vote Suwako Moriya
Frogga stole mah gif.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 15, 2009, 09:25:24 PM
##Unvote: pesco47 ##Vote: Anthony
What's your reason for jumping on the pesco wagon?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 15, 2009, 09:34:22 PM
What's your reason for jumping on the pesco wagon?
The reason is because it's the first wagon, that's all, I got no bad intentions since this is just the first day, if it bugs you so much I'll just unvote then.
##Unvote:Pesco
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 09:40:33 PM
The reason is because it's the first wagon, that's all, I got no bad intentions since this is just the first day, if it bugs you so much I'll just unvote then.
##Unvote:Pesco
And with that, I'm pretty sure we've just stepped out of RVS.
##Unvote: Pesco Vote: Anthony
Why so willing to give in under questioning?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 09:41:19 PM
A bit jumpy, are we anthony?
##Unvote, vote Anthony
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 09:43:19 PM
The reason is because it's the first wagon, that's all, I got no bad intentions since this is just the first day, if it bugs you so much I'll just unvote then.
##Unvote:Pesco
That's a very crappy reason. And a scummy backtrack.
"When Kilga started attacking you, you switched away from me to vote him. Town Rou would be looking for any excuse to vote me - Scum Rou is too scared to try it."
If this is an accurate scum representation of Rou, then it means that if Rou were scum, he would drop his vote on Pesco. However, this is said in responce to Rou keeping his vote on Pesco. This Ironically means that said meta tell means Roukanken is Obv.Town, and that anyone voting for him, i.e. Pesco who has apparently observed this, is voting with intention to kill a townie.
And with that, I'm pretty sure we've just stepped out of RVS.
##Unvote: Pesco Vote: Anthony
Why so willing to give in under questioning?
didn't this exact same situation happen in an old game? except you were on the other side. also I think you were the godfather, so maybe you're on to something.
also edible you are a bad person. see if I ever append a question mark to your name again. it's exclamation points for you, bucko. curse you, EDIBLE[/i]!![/i]
Fixed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 15, 2009, 09:44:59 PM
The reason is because it's the first wagon, that's all, I got no bad intentions since this is just the first day, if it bugs you so much I'll just unvote then.
##Unvote:Pesco
And with that, I'm pretty sure we've just stepped out of RVS.
##Unvote: Pesco Vote: Anthony
Why so willing to give in under questioning?
First of all I'm sure everyone knows how I act submissive, second, no one wants everyone to gang up on them, I'm just trying to apply basic common sense
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 09:47:36 PM
Quote
First of all I'm sure everyone knows how I act submissive, second, no one wants everyone to gang up on them, I'm just trying to apply basic common sense
First of all, I think we all know how I am, and thusly your point is irrelevant.
Secondly, you think giving up will somehow prevent people from "ganging up on you"? The point of the game is NOT to be popular, it's to find scum.
Which is why I'm unvoting you. This reeks of noob mistake
##Unvote
Edible is still scum, so ##Vote:Edible?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 09:49:06 PM
didn't this exact same situation happen in an old game? except you were on the other side. also I think you were the godfather, so maybe you're on to something.
I have no idea which game you're talking about, and wording it like that I'm not even sure if you're attacking me or not. :/
The reason is because it's the first wagon, that's all, I got no bad intentions since this is just the first day, if it bugs you so much I'll just unvote then.
##Unvote:Pesco
What do you mean by "bad intentions?"
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 15, 2009, 09:56:14 PM
didn't this exact same situation happen in an old game? except you were on the other side. also I think you were the godfather, so maybe you're on to something.
This needs to be explained fully. All the games available are linked, so provide us with one.
Which is why I'm unvoting you. This reeks of noob mistake
##Unvote
Edible is still scum, so ##Vote:Edible?
Why park the vote on a non-entity?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 09:58:22 PM
I demand my vote for Edible!! count
##Unvote, Vote Edible!!
Quote
Why park the vote on a non-entity?
No secondary suspect. But I won't vote someone if I think they are town. And yes, that was a snap change but the situation was such that my analysis pointed towards noobtown.
I realize RVS is over but it happened a bit too quickly. I don't fault the people currently on Anthony, so yeah.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 15, 2009, 09:59:28 PM
I have no idea which game you're talking about, and wording it like that I'm not even sure if you're attacking me or not. :/
you don't remember? it seemed really similar to me. it was something like, you voted for some guy for a joke reason, then unvoted when people got mad at you for joke voting, then everyone jumped on you for being wishy-washy or something. I thought it was really dumb at the time but then you got lynched and flipped godfather. I just thought it was funny how the tables had apparently turned.
re: mistakes; to me the mistake would be voting pesco in the first place, so I guess I'll just ask. Anthony, why'd you vote pesco?
oh god stop posting why are you all posting at the same time
Quote from: Pescso
This needs to be explained fully. All the games available are linked, so provide us with one.
oh whoops I forgot I was playing with Meta Pesco(tm). next time I'll remember not to make vague references to old games because people will think I'm making an actual point instead of a joke. I'm pretty sure it was on the old forums; I don't remember how to get to the archive, but if you link me I can find the game to humor you.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 10:04:46 PM
Quote
No secondary suspect. But I won't vote someone if I think they are town. And yes, that was a snap change but the situation was such that my analysis pointed towards noobtown.
Do you think VgT is town at this point?
The archive is the topic 3 down from this one. It happens to be stickied and called the MotK Mafia Archive.
Your post sounds pretty waffly to me.
FoS VgT
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 10:06:35 PM
No secondary suspect. But I won't vote someone if I think they are town. And yes, that was a snap change but the situation was such that my analysis pointed towards noobtown.
Do you think VgT is town at this point?
The archive is the topic 3 down from this one. It happens to be stickied and called the MotK Mafia Archive.
Your post sounds pretty waffly to me.
FoS VgT
I'm getting a very deja vu feeling from this post. T_T
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 10:07:26 PM
Elaborate for us Rou.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 15, 2009, 10:09:29 PM
The archive is the topic 3 down from this one. It happens to be stickied and called the MotK Mafia Archive.
Your post sounds pretty waffly to me.
FoS VgT
I'll concede I'm apparently too stupid to look for obvious sticky topics, but there aren't any links to games from the old forums in that thread, so it doesn't really help.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 10:10:45 PM
No secondary suspect. But I won't vote someone if I think they are town. And yes, that was a snap change but the situation was such that my analysis pointed towards noobtown.
Do you think VgT is town at this point?
The archive is the topic 3 down from this one. It happens to be stickied and called the MotK Mafia Archive.
Your post sounds pretty waffly to me.
FoS VgT
I have no reason to believe he's scum. Whether he's town or not depends on future behavior. The parallel he's drawing is a null tell atm.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 15, 2009, 10:15:12 PM
##Vote: Roukanken (L-8)
Everything from him up to this point bothers me.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 10:15:48 PM
I have no reason to believe he's scum. Whether he's town or not depends on future behavior. The parallel he's drawing is a null tell atm.
I asked if you thought he was town. Not if you thought he was scum. You don't vote for people you think are town, and your answer does not make him town according to how I've interpreted it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 10:22:30 PM
Quote
I asked if you thought he was town. Not if you thought he was scum. You don't vote for people you think are town, and your answer does not make him town according to how I've interpreted it.
Fair point. But can you tell me why I should be voting him over anyone else? I'll be back in an hour.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 15, 2009, 10:22:42 PM
EBWOP: 2 hours.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 10:23:58 PM
What am I meant to say? In particular the 'Do you think VGT is town at this point?' seemed to refresh a memory, and I thought it was intended as a joke so I brought it up.
Also, Pesco, stop feeding Umu reasons for voting me before he gives them himself. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 10:26:28 PM
I asked if you thought he was town. Not if you thought he was scum. You don't vote for people you think are town, and your answer does not make him town according to how I've interpreted it.
Fair point. But can you tell me why I should be voting him over anyone else? I'll be back in an hour.
He's leaning scummy for me, I've FoS'd him since I can't vote a second person.
You're parking your vote on air, and that equals buggerall scumhunting.
What am I meant to say? In particular the 'Do you think VGT is town at this point?' seemed to refresh a memory, and I thought it was intended as a joke so I brought it up.
Also, Pesco, stop feeding Umu reasons for voting me before he gives them himself. >_>
Why did you think I was joking at all? I gave no reasons to Umu except that I agree with what she's doing.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 15, 2009, 10:27:21 PM
The only game that fits the bill of Rou having been anything close to GF, is Western Community Mafia. I was co-mod, therefore you are talking poeskak.
yeah, I think that was it. you don't remember? it was the same game where I spent most of my time going after the wrong people and then I got modkilled for inactivity during lylo. actually that's kind of embarassing. why the hell did I bring this up?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 10:28:37 PM
yeah, I think that was it. you don't remember? it was the same game where I spent most of my time going after the wrong people and then I got modkilled for inactivity during lylo. actually that's kind of embarassing. why the hell did I bring this up?
This is starting to get sidetracked. You brought up an observation from an old game, I want to know why you thought it was relevant here and now.
It wasn't even meant as a case of any sort, I meant it jokingly. It was a point I brought up out of curiosity, since I wasn't expecting genuine conversation to get anywhere until a few more people turned up, and now it seems to have been blown out of proportion. >_>
Agree with Rou and UK that umu needs to provide reasons.
Reasons for what? I'm still not quite sure what I'm being attacked for, and Umu's blanket answer of 'everything so far' isn't helping.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 15, 2009, 10:43:46 PM
Quote
First of all I'm sure everyone knows how I act submissive, second, no one wants everyone to gang up on them, I'm just trying to apply basic common sense
First point doesn't matter.
Second point we have two issues with. 1. Bandwagoning is in it's very nature "Ganging up on somebody." Adding a vote to gang up on somebody, and then subtracting your vote because you don't want to be ganged up upon is hypocritical. 2. In generaly, Scum have more to lose than Townies do when one of them is lynched. It's always a bad idea to back off when pushed, because it looks like you're worried about saving your ass. Surprise 3. Common newbie scum mistake is getting into the mindset that you can lynch either your friends or people you know to be town. Townies however can only vote for enemies because they don't know for certain anyone's alignment. Therefore, Townies are much more likely to get into the mindset that they are right, as oppose to scum who think they always have to be wrong. Pulling out of the Pesco bandwagon like that makes it seem like you think you're wrong.
Quote
Which is why I'm unvoting you. This reeks of noob mistake
We do not like how you can easily ignore this situation.
Quote
Edible is still scum, so ##Vote:Edible?
Nor do we like how you ignore it to make another jokevote.
Quote
It's like how I decided KGH was probably noobtown last game.
How did you decide KGH was probably town last game? Besides guessing. In fact, if I remember correctly, you had to be told to reread him before you found him town (Or was that someone else?).
Quote
I have no reason to believe he's scum.
You have no reason to believe he's town. Although you've said that in the same sentence. We do not blame you for not voting him, as the main issue is that you ignore a current discussion topic and then choose not to bring anything else up. You are choosing to provide nothing.
##Unvote, ##Vote: UncertainKitten For these reasons.
VgameT looks like he is fooling around as well. His point may well be a good one, but we do not enjoy watching him backtrack on the subject by calling it a joke. We have low tolerance for jokes that do not make people laugh on instinct, as it could then be called into question if you did mean it as a joke.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 15, 2009, 10:50:54 PM
I expect we'll be on page 7 or 8 by the time I wake up.
Anthony better get posting.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 15, 2009, 10:57:57 PM
Rou:
Quote
And with that, I'm pretty sure we've just stepped out of RVS.
No need to justify your vote with this or pronounce an RVS. (This is usually the part where I accuse Serpentarius of something, but I'll do that later.)
Quote
Okay this is the worst defense I've ever seen, I'm going to just walk past and act like it didn't happen. >_>
This response seems to implicitly suggest you know Anthony is Town (otherwise you would give a response like :ransmirk: ).
Quote
You certainly seemed to think it was fine to gang up on Pesco. Third on the wagon as well. >_>
I dislike how this was tacked onto your reason for attacking Anthony.
In other words, your attacks on Anthony were half-hearted or overly built up and it came across to me like you felt like you were giving someone undeserved heck.
The rest of the posts up until my vote were not noticeably pro-Town.
-----
Quote
Also, Umu, while you're attacking me is it too much to ask for an opinion on Anthony?
Kind of apathetic. His defense was poor, but that's to be expected from a newb. Will evaluate further as more information comes in.
I'm not really seeing VgameT as scum ATM.
I don't disagree with Zakeri's vote on UK (who was my second pick after Rou).
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 15, 2009, 11:01:11 PM
This is starting to get sidetracked. You brought up an observation from an old game, I want to know why you thought it was relevant here and now.
I thought it was funny. obviously the joke missed the mark because nobody remembers what I'm talking about. I wasn't actually trying to make a point about anyone's alignment or whatever. what a careless blunder I've made.
Zakeri: I see. I didn't know sm.org mafia was such a stately affair. in the future I'll refrain from making such innapropriate jokes. I guess this is a good time to remove my joke vote on you as well. ##unvote.
I've pretty much only been responding to pesco, huh. I'mma go reread what's been happening outside of my own little conflict and see if I can't make a more useful post.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 15, 2009, 11:09:49 PM
Ok now, all I got is that I was acting like an idiot, well it's time to change that now.
I honestly first made my vote just based on an idiot idea, and I took it back thinking it would help, but then apperently that's a beginner screw up, either way I made it, and I can't take it back, I can't see anything that'll help me prove my innocence, so I'll wait, and that's all I got.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 15, 2009, 11:18:05 PM
Quote
I thought it was funny. obviously the joke missed the mark because nobody remembers what I'm talking about. I wasn't actually trying to make a point about anyone's alignment or whatever. what a careless blunder I've made.
We do not discourage humor. We just do not feel that it was humorous.
As you may notice, we have started the game by punishing those who seem to be attempting to hold back discussion. You did not realize, but with your comment you actually were making a comment on Anthony's Alignment (That he was godfather based on Rou's experience in a previous game). We felt you were attempting to provide this opinion, and deny that it came from you in the event that it would help lynch Anthony, but not be drawn back towards you.
We see you have decided to search for discussion points, and will ease up on you for now.
Quote
and that's all I got.
Oh boy :/ And here we have, irrefutable proof that this is your first game.
We would like to provide you with another tip: Please try to find things, something, anything, from other people that seems like something scum is likely to do. The general idea is that we punish you much, much severely for not doing work, than doing work and being wrong. The fact that you do not attempt to bring up reason on someone else is again a scumtell because, as it leads back to the mindset difference between scum and town that We detailed in my last post, the fact that you did not try means you believe you either have to always be wrong or you do not want to be right.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 11:27:21 PM
No need to justify your vote with this or pronounce an RVS. (This is usually the part where I accuse Serpentarius of something, but I'll do that later.)
I felt it was the first action in the game worth commenting on, and I would have preferred people to notice it rather than continue to make joke posts. What's wrong with that?
Quote
This response seems to implicitly suggest you know Anthony is Town (otherwise you would give a response like :ransmirk: ).
It was a matter of 'this defense is so bad there's no point talking about it because there's no way it could be seen as logical'. He was using his whole submissive thing as an excuse for what is basically scummy play.
Quote
I dislike how this was tacked onto your reason for attacking Anthony.
Would you have rather I hadn't brought it up? I was tempted to start a case on him the instant he showed up as third on the wagon but decided it wasn't quite enough. Then he retracted his vote under pressure, which convinced me it was worth pressing him.
[quoet]In other words, your attacks on Anthony were half-hearted or overly built up and it came across to me like you felt like you were giving someone undeserved heck.[/quote] Welcome to Day 1, where we press one person on a small point in the hope of generating discussion.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 15, 2009, 11:28:19 PM
##UNVOTE
No need for this RVS vote anymore.
CUT: Even more reason to abandon this.
umu: Not seeing some of your points on Rou.
1: He wasn't justifying his vote with that statement. The reason for the vote was because Anthony collapsed under a single question and Rou found that suspect.
2. Don't see why it implies he knows Anthony is town. Second part seems like a joke and the first statement has been said by others. A clarification on what part implies would be best.
3. Honestly, I don't see why you disliked this. It was a supplement to his attack of "bandwagoning" which you disliked. Now why was this a bad supplement? Do you believe that 3 votes in is not a wagon?
Agree on the point that Rou needs to chime in with ideas/scumhunting/etc.
Zakeri's post on UK is good. Don't like her for pretty much ignoring lines of questioning and jumping onto a bandwagon.
##VOTE UNCERTAINKITTEN
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 11:31:28 PM
Quote
Agree on the point that Rou needs to chime in with ideas/scumhunting/etc.
Well, I'm irritated at Anthony for basically admitting 'yes I'm useless' and not actually doing any hunting afterwards. I'm also irritated at UK for unvoting him because apparently newbs are Town by default, and especially because afterwards so put her vote more or less nowhere.
Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion.
No-one else stands out, but we need more activity. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 15, 2009, 11:34:07 PM
Anthony: Needs to answer my question.
Rou: Irritated at a newb for making a newb mistake? Point on UK's fair. She's a bit vote jumpy at the beginning of D1.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 11:36:09 PM
Irritated at him making a newb mistake and then making no effort to rectify it. If he apologised and then tried to DO SOMETHING USEFUL I'd be less critical.
Quote
I can't see anything that'll help me prove my innocence, so I'll wait, and that's all I got.
Apathy does not clear you.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 15, 2009, 11:45:01 PM
OK, some curiosities.
I'm curious as to why Kilga voted Anthony over the two people who joined the pesco jokewagon after him. I mean, to me, anything after 2 jokevotes on the same guy is kind of weird, but there were 5 people on him before it stopped. Kilga hasn't posted since, so I don't know what's up. The fact that Anthony's immediate and weak response turned him into Lynch Target #1 is interesting too. Zakeri jumped on after Anthony and hasn't really been prodded, but he's moved on and is actually contributing by now. Suwako hopped on as vote #5, and he hasn't posted since. He's still voting for pesco. What's with that? If one of them had been called out instead, would everyone be voting for them?
This has already been pointed out, but I'm curious as to what UK is doing. Voting for Anthony and then unvoting him because he gave a bad defense is weird. If he's not scum because his response blows, what would it have taken for you to keep your vote on him? Also, if you're going to unvote, why not just unvote? I don't get why you seem to want to keep it parked on someone. It's not like 2 hours is a long time.
Oh, a Rou post. I guess I can ask you too. You wanted to vote Anthony immediately after he voted pesco, so what do you think about Zakeri and Suwako jumping on afterwards?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 15, 2009, 11:47:25 PM
Ok then, I'll start hunting, just not that active of a person at the moment due to multitasking,
Agree on the point that Rou needs to chime in with ideas/scumhunting/etc.
Well, I'm irritated at Anthony for basically admitting 'yes I'm useless' and not actually doing any hunting afterwards. I'm also irritated at UK for unvoting him because apparently newbs are Town by default, and especially because afterwards so put her vote more or less nowhere.
Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion.
No-one else stands out, but we need more activity. >_>
I was mostly saying in your terms 'I'm useless" because I couldn't find anything, but then I should start pointing out more things, so thus
I dislike how this was tacked onto your reason for attacking Anthony.
Would you have rather I hadn't brought it up? I was tempted to start a case on him the instant he showed up as third on the wagon but decided it wasn't quite enough. Then he retracted his vote under pressure, which convinced me it was worth pressing him.
I'm going on this due to you focusing on just me due to the fact of two mistakes, which I admit was stupid, so I'm going to fix this by pointing out the fact of I have yet to see a decent attempt on anyone else, also the mentioning of the temptation of going at me on just being the third person to vote for pesco, what would have you done if it was someone else who voted 3rd for pesco?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 15, 2009, 11:49:35 PM
@Rou: There is no such thing as a defined RVS. However, when you choose to start being serious is worth looking at. To that end, if you're going to say something like HAY JOKE DISCUSSION ENDS NAO, I would expect you to have a solid backing behind it, not
Quote
Welcome to Day 1, where we press one person on a small point in the hope of generating discussion.
Quote
It was a matter of 'this defense is so bad there's no point talking about it because there's no way it could be seen as logical'. He was using his whole submissive thing as an excuse for what is basically scummy play.
Wwwwwhich is scummy in itself, no?
I actually wouldn't have cared if you threw in that he was third on the wagon; the point was that he was on it in the first place, not necessarily in the Mystical Place Where Scum Usually Hang Out.
Quote from: Not Heniwac
Rou: Irritated at a newb for making a newb mistake?
Quote from: Rou
Irritated at him making a newb mistake and then making no effort to rectify it.
Irritated at a newb for making back-to-back newb mistakes?
Quote
Apathy does not clear you.
Posturing. (I don't think apathy is the correct word, for one...)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 11:49:48 PM
You wanted to vote Anthony immediately after he voted pesco, so what do you think about Zakeri and Suwako jumping on afterwards?
The main reason I wanted to go after Anthony at that point was because he was a) third on the wagon, and b) he admitted he was doing it for the sake of bandwagonning rather than a joke. Suwako and Zak made it clear their votes weren't serious (honestly, anything using the crack fic as evidence is clearly a joke).
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Affinity on September 15, 2009, 11:52:15 PM
u-mu seems to me to be trying to harvest (haha) suspicion for bad reasons; e.g his own case on Roukanken is in itself 'half-baked and overly built up', with kind of questionable twists of context and such. This is Anthony's first time after all. For the slight hypocrisy, and having not enough beef,
##Vote: u-mu
---
@Anthony:
If you understand that much, answer this question; who do you think is most scummy now? Most fundamental question in Mafia by far, else you be taken as scum. This goes for UK with her half-baked sweet potatoes as well. I'm okay with his bandwagon, since... a bad case is certainly better than none, and that was a good enough reason for me.
---
Ninja 2: It's still early in the game, what do you think of people who have not posted like me in comparison to Rou, as well as everyone else who did not go for someone else?
Gosh 3 consecutive ninjas. I guess no one likes poor Aki.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 15, 2009, 11:55:24 PM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 15, 2009, 11:56:12 PM
Oh look, a Umu ninja.
Quote
There is no such thing as a defined RVS. However, when you choose to start being serious is worth looking at. To that end, if you're going to say something like HAY JOKE DISCUSSION ENDS NAO, I would expect you to have a solid backing behind it
You appear to have missed the point of Day 1. The entire point is that solid backing doesn't exist until someone makes a case based on SOMETHING.
Quote
Wwwwwhich is scummy in itself, no?
I assumed it was self-explanatory, a la Kilga. >_>
Quote
Irritated at a newb for making back-to-back newb mistakes?
Irritated because at least one of these mistakes is clearly scummy, while the other is anti-Town.
Anthony posts...and his idea of hunting is more or less an OMGUS on me. T_T
Quote
also the mentioning of the temptation of going at me on just being the third person to vote for pesco, what would have you done if it was someone else who voted 3rd for pesco?
It was that on top of 'doing it for the wagon', really. If other people had joke posted votes at that point I'd probably have been fine with it.
Any sign of an opinion on UK, the other big topic of discussion right now?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 15, 2009, 11:57:54 PM
Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum, but I'm keeping on Rou for his pursuit on me for just being 3rd on pesco and saying bandwagon, which I should have said was more of a joke bandwagon, either way no undoing that now, so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 15, 2009, 11:59:37 PM
I don't disagree with Zakeri's vote on UK (who was my second pick after Rou).
Same things brought against you, except with a slightly different flavor and more pointless modvoting. UK was my second pick because her willingness to bring up mindh4x in an unpopular light is a slight Towntell IMO.
-----
Quote
Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum,
Less conspiracy, more explanation.
Quote
so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.
Less waffling, more voting.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 12:00:47 AM
Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum, but I'm keeping on Rou for his pursuit on me for just being 3rd on pesco and saying bandwagon, which I should have said was more of a joke bandwagon, either way no undoing that now, so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.
I'm staying on you for reasons beyond that - your lack of hunting, your retracting your apparent joke vote under pressure, using 'I'm submissive' as a defense...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 16, 2009, 12:05:48 AM
Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum, but I'm keeping on Rou for his pursuit on me for just being 3rd on pesco and saying bandwagon, which I should have said was more of a joke bandwagon, either way no undoing that now, so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.
I'm staying on you for reasons beyond that - your lack of hunting, your retracting your apparent joke vote under pressure, using 'I'm submissive' as a defense...
I get the whole 'I'm submissive' thing was a crap defense, so drop it already, since I know it doesn't help my case, overall it was an idiot move to do,
Now that I think about it, there are more possibilities, mostly using me as a meat shield of sorts, which could lead to either UK or u-mu being possible scum,
Less conspiracy, more explanation.
Quote
so overall either UK, u-mu, or Rou can be possibilities.
Less waffling, more voting.
What I ment was, with UK and you backing me for being a noob, I could have been possibly grouped with you and/or UK, which could possibly lead to suspicion of scum, either way it's something I just thought of, and I'm waiting to vote until I'm a bit more sure, I was just stating current possibilities
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 16, 2009, 12:07:20 AM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 16, 2009, 12:20:10 AM
The Anthony wagon sucks. It started in what looked a lot like a innocent newb mistake, he got proded for it and reacted pretty much like an innocent newb would.
Don't like how Rou jumped on him and waved aside his explanations as invalid, using the all-too-common "it's not noobish, it's scummy and anti-town" argument. This might be a case of "too Rou to be scum", but I'm kinda paranoid of people manipulating their meta, so I'm keeping my suspicion on him.
pesco, however, seem worse for the time being. He jumps on the Anthony wagon as well with the same kind of throwaway reasoning, then proceeds to FoS (ugh) and press VgT on a mere technicality. It's particularly bad because we've already seen people referring to past games before without giving links, and now you suddenly decide this is scummy.
Don't see much of a case on UK's actions at face value. Her prod and unvote seems to be exactly what to expect from a sensible player when coming upon a newbie mistake. Of course, she could be trying to act like a proper player (paranoid, remember?), but I don't see scum intent right now. ##Unvote ##Vote: pesco
Quote from: Zakeri
We...
Is that the Royal "we"?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 12:30:21 AM
Quote
He's leaning scummy for me, I've FoS'd him since I can't vote a second person.
You're parking your vote on air, and that equals buggerall scumhunting.
Nothing's happened. Besides the Anthony thing, we have very little.
Quote
yeah, I think that was it. you don't remember? it was the same game where I spent most of my time going after the wrong people and then I got modkilled for inactivity during lylo. actually that's kind of embarassing. why the hell did I bring this up?
If it helps, Pesco, I don't like this post. It feels like he's kinda trying to be like "y-y-yeah that was it...b-but I may have messed up..."
Quote
We do not like how you can easily ignore this situation.
Royal we? I'm merely calling tone on it.
Quote
Nor do we like how you ignore it to make another jokevote.
Royal we again? Not exactly a joke vote, more a no vote without directly saying so.
Quote
How did you decide KGH was probably town last game? Besides guessing. In fact, if I remember correctly, you had to be told to reread him before you found him town (Or was that someone else?).
I did a massive reread of several players before I switched. I was told on a couple people, but not him, though I creditted Umu for spurring me to reread. However, I'm learning from that experience and trying to pick it up quicker with less effort. In this case I feel that his tone conveys newbtown.
Quote
You have no reason to believe he's town. Although you've said that in the same sentence. We do not blame you for not voting him, as the main issue is that you ignore a current discussion topic and then choose not to bring anything else up. You are choosing to provide nothing.
What is there to provide at the moment? I can't exactly make a case on myself (though that would be admittedly funny). Nothing else has really happened that causes me to move.
Umu has fair points on Rou. I don't disagree with them and I'll be placing a serious'd vote at the end of this post depending on what piques my interest.
I fully expect VGT 86 to get voted for much the same reasons I've just been voted for :P. Page 3 reread for the win.
Anthony 87 starts to strain my earlier read. If you haven't noticed, other people are getting voted for sitting on their asses for doing nothing. At this point, you don't need a good case, you should at least have opinions/commentary. Stuff is starting to happen.
OHHHHHHHH~! Zak has a post restriction!
Rou 89. The same problem we had with KGH last game, but under a different flavor. It effectively artificially ends the RVS whereas Anthony's action would have either naturally done it or not done so. So, it's different, but the same grievance.
Eliphas 90: really? That's all? Just "I agree with Zak"? Lots of scumhunting effort thar.
Rou 91: No, it's not that, but I like your strawman. I also like the irritation with me. Are you going to vote me or do you think I'm town? Or none of the above? Elaborate? But yes, about the strawman, it's not that I think all noobs are town, it's just his tone FEELS town. vote being nowhere has been explained.
Eliphas 92: And can you explain why vote jumping is implicitly scummy?
VGT 94: I like voting the mod. That appears to be the main issue everyone has. Because I think they think I'm trying to look like I'm voting. Alas, I did not consider this. But yeah, at any rate, for the rest of it, it wasn't his defense was bad, it was the way he presented it. It felt...town. I don't know how to explain it beyond that.
95 is also useless. Umu...Anthony, could you...please try to at least somewhat vindicate my read a little bit?
Anyway, I now have enough data to answer your 98 Affinity. VGT is not impressing me. Nor is Rou. I'd place Rou as scummiest at the moment much for Umu's reasons, as well as the "I'm irritated" lines not followed by any action.
Oh yeah, AFfinity, could you provide that condescending elaboration Kilga sometimes offers about the umu thing?
102 causes me to demand further explanations. I smell parroting.
Anthony 105: Why should he drop a legitamite point against you?
Congratulations, you understand the concept of BUDDYING now. Unfortunately, that idea does not help you very much when you don't produce content that would make you desireable to buddy up to.
Hey, caught up, gonna back up what I said to Affinity
##Unvote, Vote Roukanken
And apparently I was still voting Anthony. That was not supposed to be.
Though I must say I'd really like some content from him soon, rather than eggos and rather limp speculation. I'd like more from Eliphas as well, whom I promptly forgot after his, in his words, WOOHOO onto my wagon. VGT also needs to get a game face on. I would probably vote VGT if Rou were to suddenly start being awesome, but I'm willing to give Eliphas a couple more posts before I throw him on the list of "die nao".
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 12:39:56 AM
The Anthony wagon sucks. It started in what looked a lot like a innocent newb mistake, he got proded for it and reacted pretty much like an innocent newb would.
Don't like how Rou jumped on him and waved aside his explanations as invalid, using the all-too-common "it's not noobish, it's scummy and anti-town" argument. This might be a case of "too Rou to be scum", but I'm kinda paranoid of people manipulating their meta, so I'm keeping my suspicion on him.
Again, why do newbs get free passes? Zengar was scum last game and he was a newb, so it's not like being new makes you Town by default. Plus, retracting the vote under pressure in particular is a move that reads more newbscum than newbtown. Any potential danger will frighten scum more since they've got more to lose from being lynched, so that suggests already newbscum over newbtown.
Quote
No, it's not that, but I like your strawman. I also like the irritation with me. Are you going to vote me or do you think I'm town? Or none of the above?
I'm suspicious of you, yes, but I feel that Anthony is worse at the moment. It also annoys me that you didn't clarify why you unvoted him. You said 'it looks like an obvious newb mistake, therefore unvote'. Again, why does making a scummy move not matter if you're a newb? There are scummy mistakes and non-scummy mistakes, and in my opinion retracting a joke vote under pressure is more likely to be scummy than not.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 12:53:52 AM
Anthony has given me no reason to move my vote.
VGT asks me questions with some pretty obvious answers. Not a fan of this.
Youmu is making a mountain out of a molehill.
I like Zakeri.
That's about it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 12:58:45 AM
Quote
I'm suspicious of you, yes, but I feel that Anthony is worse at the moment. It also annoys me that you didn't clarify why you unvoted him. You said 'it looks like an obvious newb mistake, therefore unvote'. Again, why does making a scummy move not matter if you're a newb? There are scummy mistakes and non-scummy mistakes, and in my opinion retracting a joke vote under pressure is more likely to be scummy than not.
Well, whatever, it's clarified now. I thought it was clearer that I was referring to tone when I said he felt newbtown despite criticizing his post.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 01:01:16 AM
Well, whatever, it's clarified now. I thought it was clearer that I was referring to tone when I said he felt newbtown despite criticizing his post.
I don't understand this point. If there's something in his tone which sounds noobtown, surely you can point it out rather than saying 'it's there'?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 01:02:43 AM
Quote
I don't understand this point. If there's something in his tone which sounds noobtown, surely you can point it out rather than saying 'it's there'?
I'm at a loss to explain it...it's somewhere between would scum be that retarded, especially with daytalk available (of course Zengar has proved this to be possible) and something about the way he phrased it. I can't say I'm a fan of his recent contributions though.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 16, 2009, 01:03:17 AM
Vote Count: Three Votecounts On One Page, Jesus Christ VGameT (1) - Kiro Pesco (2) - Suwako Moriya, Nietz Anthony (3) - Kilgamayan, Roukanken, Pesco Roukanken (2) - u?, UncertainKitten UncertainKitten (2) - Zakeri, Eliphas u? (1) - Affinity
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 01:07:38 AM
Actually I have a better idea.
##Unvote: Anthony ##Vote: VgameT
Hi hows about you actually start doing things? Your spat with pesco was much ado about nothing and wasn't even game-relevant and the questions you asked could be answered simply by reading the pesco votes in question and spending two minutes thinking about them.
Roukan: When I have some, you'll be the first to know.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 01:17:37 AM
Roukan: When I have some, you'll be the first to know.
This interests me. You disapprove of Umu pressing at me with as you put it 'a mountain out of a molehill', but UK's attacking me for pretty much the same reasons. What's different?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 16, 2009, 01:24:10 AM
Again, why do newbs get free passes? Zengar was scum last game and he was a newb, so it's not like being new makes you Town by default.
Nor does it make you scum by default. But what it does make you is an easy target. And if I remember last game well, Zengar did a lot of consistently scummy stuff during the day, not just one single dumb action.
Quote
Plus, retracting the vote under pressure in particular is a move that reads more newbscum than newbtown. Any potential danger will frighten scum more since they've got more to lose from being lynched, so that suggests already newbscum over newbtown.
Seriously, everyone ALWAYS says "more newbscum than newbtown" every time they vote a newbie. I used to did it myself, now that I realize it, it sounds kind of irritating. "Scum is more afraid because they have more to lose" is another fallacy, everyone dislikes the idea of being lynched over some mistake, not just scum.
Quote
Royal "we".
Oh, I think I get. Five Magical Stones.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 01:25:17 AM
Quote
Seriously, everyone ALWAYS says "more newbscum than newbtown" every time they vote a newbie. I used to did it myself, now that I realize it, it sounds kind of irritating. "Scum is more afraid because they have more to lose" is another fallacy, everyone dislikes the idea of being lynched over some mistake, not just scum.
I can support this. Take a look at a lot of my mislynches when I put on the raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeegahol.
Quote
Oh, I think I get. Five Magical Stones.
So THAT'S it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 16, 2009, 01:27:52 AM
Still on Pyokopesco. Yop. No real reason, no real reason to move. ... what, I got a shrine to run, you know how much upkeep there is to do in back of one o'those things? I ain't got time to follow seven pages 'o snakes before tomorrow, call me when something's hopping! Less rageohol, more alcohol, it'll be a party!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 01:30:46 AM
Suwako worries me slightly. I'm hoping that is also a post restriction.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Affinity on September 16, 2009, 01:34:33 AM
Darn it I used all my food metaphors in one post and I'm at a loss on what to do anymore.
---
@u-mu:
Well first off I don't see how saying that RVS ends is scummy at all. It's like poor me saying that autumn is over (since Anthony made a post worthy of suspicion = snow); I'm not villainous for saying so.
Furthermore, Rou's little throwaway comment about Anthony's defense can hardly be taken as 'he's town', and it seems a little straw-manish, especially since it doesn't affect his stance on him at all. I'm also of the view that Anthony was really worthy of suspicion since he didn't have a case against anyone, which is worse than a bad case, and that Rou and others were all justified in voting him. So yeah, to me it feels as if you are scavenging for scraps and giving the pretense of coming up with something original.
---
@Anthony:
Since I'm the goddess of plenty, let it be known that I don't like the 'meat-shield' argument; just as scum can find you as possible vote-parkers, town can find you suspicious and vote you for genuine reasons as well, and it is impossible to differentiate between the two without any mention of reasoning. Thus that post was for nothing.
Suwako is also what. You're lucky that no one likes me and that you actually have a shrine, so what do you think of Anthony, Rou and u-mu and VGameT? Really nothing?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 01:38:54 AM
This interests me. You disapprove of Umu pressing at me with as you put it 'a mountain out of a molehill', but UK's attacking me for pretty much the same reasons. What's different?
The difference is that UK's vote for you is in some huge fucking wall that can't possibly be of any worth because it's on Day 1 so I'm not reading it.
I admit I missed the vote for you in that post (largely because I quick-skimmed it). I suppose I lean red on her (and Zakeri makes a good case against her, too), though not so much to be worth voting over Anthony or VGT.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 16, 2009, 01:40:13 AM
Hi hows about you actually start doing things? Your spat with pesco was much ado about nothing and wasn't even game-relevant and the questions you asked could be answered simply by reading the pesco votes in question and spending two minutes thinking about them.
Roukan: When I have some, you'll be the first to know.
I asked because I didn't know. Next time I'll try harder to read your mind. To me, they all looked like joke votes, though. I guess you saw something that I didn't. Shall I defer to your superior investigative abilities? It's difficult when I can't see things from your perspective. If only there was some way I could query you as to your reasonings, and you could enlighten me in return.
I was going to ask Zakeri about the 'we' thing but then I was like "hey I bet he's just roleplaying" so I looked at his character choice and apparently he's five stones. I'm glad they all agree with each other. It would be very confusing if he had to speak from five different viewpoints instead.
My take on Anthony is, I'm not comfortable about it. New players are not usually good players. So, if you push them into a corner, they tend to act about the same regardless of whether they're scum or town, because either way they view the game as a loss if they're dead. The more votes and ire they draw from the other players, the more they tend to make mistakes and give up in general. You basically can't tell the difference between a new townie going "I give up, I can't do or say anything, when I flip you'll all feel dumb" and a new scum doing the same thing. I guess another way to put it would be, mafia is a game where you press other players until they crack, and the people who crack in a certain way are the scum. But new players tend to crack easily and often, so it's a dangerous situation. Kilga was the guy who set the whole thing in motion, so I wanted to know what his reason was. Since he decided to call me a moron instead, I'm not thrilled.
Warning - while you were typing 7 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
would you cut that shit out. god damn. I'm posting this now because if I try to revise it I'm going to get stuck in an endless loop.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kitten4u on September 16, 2009, 01:40:58 AM
And thus this game proves I am a slow reader. Geez, you guys came up with a lot of stuff real quickly.
---
I don't understand why people are dismissing Anthony's behavior as newbtown. I don't think jumping on the Pesco wagon was bad, but getting all defensive when called out on it is. Getting very defensive and being waffly sounds more like scum to me.
##Vote Evil Magnum Anthony
I'm not seeing the case on UK. I don't think she should dismiss Anthony's behavior as newbtown, but I don't think she's scummy for thinking so. That goes for Nietz, Umu and anyone else that thinks this as well.
I'm not seeing the case on VGamerT either. Early stuff just looked like a joke gone wrong, and I must be an uber newb too because the answers to those questions he asked weren't obvious to me.
I think Umu brings up some legit points on Rou, but I don't think the case on Rou is stronger than the one on Anthony.
I don't like Affinity's case on Umu. From what I can tell he's accusing Umu of having a weak case and that's all he really says. First, most cases on D1 are weak, and second, I find that case much weaker than the one that Umu made which is ironic.
---
Ninja'd by a lot of people, but I think I really need to post at some point. I'll address those in a sec if I have anything more to add.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 16, 2009, 01:44:29 AM
Suwako: If you try to stay inactive by hiding behind a post restriction, I will engage you in conversation with my FISTS
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 01:44:50 AM
Quote
The difference is that UK's vote for you is in some huge fucking wall that can't possibly be of any worth because it's on Day 1 so I'm not reading it.
I would post :dealwithit: here. Maybe you all shouldn't make 2 fucking pages in 2 hours if you don't want walls.
Quote
I'm not seeing the case on UK. I don't think she should dismiss Anthony's behavior as newbtown, but I don't think she's scummy for thinking so. That goes for Nietz, Umu and anyone else that thinks this as well.
Temporary dismissal. I'm not going to let that coast throughout the game. Anthony is not my favorite right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 01:45:11 AM
EBWOP: Hell yes! It worked! I thought you had to post the image yourself :P.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 01:45:55 AM
Quote
Nor does it make you scum by default. But what it does make you is an easy target. And if I remember last game well, Zengar did a lot of consistently scummy stuff during the day, not just one single dumb action.
- Third on Pesco wagon, went on for the sake of wagoning - Retracted vote under very mild pressure, used weak defense to explain it - No scumhunting until pressed, and even then only gave mild suspicions without bothering to put a vote down to them
Is that enough yet?
Quote
Seriously, everyone ALWAYS says "more newbscum than newbtown" every time they vote a newbie. I used to did it myself, now that I realize it, it sounds kind of irritating. "Scum is more afraid because they have more to lose" is another fallacy, everyone dislikes the idea of being lynched over some mistake, not just scum.
Then the easiest solution would be to make sure that newbies are at least competent before they show up here. I remember Zak (I think) saying we should get people to play one Newbie Game on MS before playing here, and recently with KGH and Zengar I'm growing more and more convinced that that might be a good idea. As for the fallacy, it mainly revolves around the idea that scum are more likely to go out of their way to avoid suspicion, while Town are typically more interested in finding scum and will put hunting ahead of their own survival unless under significant pressure. Anthony panicked early on, which doesn't sit well with me.
Suwako posting and saying NOTHING beyond 'I'm sticking with Pesco' is painful. Please, the last thing we need now is people DELIBERATELY not contributing. T_T
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 01:53:51 AM
I asked because I didn't know. Next time I'll try harder to read your mind. To me, they all looked like joke votes, though. I guess you saw something that I didn't. Shall I defer to your superior investigative abilities? It's difficult when I can't see things from your perspective. If only there was some way I could query you as to your reasonings, and you could enlighten me in return.
If you insist on playing this way.
Anthony was a new guy with a voting reason that could be taken with the slightest hint of serious intent when one considered that he was a new guy. So I poked him to see what he'd do.
The difference is that UK's vote for you is in some huge fucking wall that can't possibly be of any worth because it's on Day 1 so I'm not reading it.
I would post :dealwithit: here. Maybe you all shouldn't make 2 fucking pages in 2 hours if you don't want walls.
I :dealwithit: by simply not reading your posts very closely (if I read them at all). Note my missing you changing cases from Roukan to Edible in the previous game.
Don't get mad at me for you missing two pages. I missed those two pages and about about a half a page more and still managed to sum my thoughts up in five lines.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kitten4u on September 16, 2009, 01:58:52 AM
...Yeah, Suwako is just "what" right now. Contribute plz.
Quote from: UK
Temporary dismissal. I'm not going to let that coast throughout the game. Anthony is not my favorite right now.
I understand that it's temporary and I still don't think it should be overlooked. Again, I just disagree and I don't find you disagreeing with me scummy.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 02:03:51 AM
Fair enough Kitten. And Kilga, fine, yanno what? You can miss out on my posts. Don't expect me to excuse you from it. The problem is on YOUR part, not mine.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 16, 2009, 02:07:54 AM
Anthony was a new guy with a voting reason that could be taken with the slightest hint of serious intent when one considered that he was a new guy. So I poked him to see what he'd do.
Was that really so hard to figure out?
I'd rather have you tell me than figure it out, because sometimes the things I think are wrong. I figured you at least would understand the value of an interview, but I guess you have the power of Thinking on your side, which allows you to form ideas without actually reading the thread. I'll be sure to value your input in the future.
OK yeah sorry that was sarcasm. You're saying you haven't read half the thread, so why should I care about anything you put forward? It doesn't have any weight behind it. You're liable to change your mind at any time, and you can hide behind any flip-flopping by saying "oh well I didn't notice X before because I was skimming." Try harder.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 02:10:39 AM
Hahahaha. That's fantastic.
I will say I've read enough of the thread to see you still haven't done anything meaningful, but that's really all that warrants.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 02:15:37 AM
Why has Kilga's opinion on UK suddenly jumped from 'Nothing' to 'She's saying nothing useful at all'?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 02:15:58 AM
Why has Kilga's opinion on UK suddenly jumped from 'Nothing' to 'She's saying nothing useful at all'?
I was assuming that was on VGT. But I could be mistaken.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 02:18:20 AM
It was VGT, yes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 02:19:30 AM
While I'm here it is beginning to feel like the "throwing shit and seeing what sticks" tell is Rou's tatic at the moment. I like my vote more.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 16, 2009, 02:20:06 AM
jesus christ VgT
##UNVOTE
Waffles ahoy. After a brief stint with Pesco about absolutely nothing game-related, you get into a pissy-fight about Kilga because of an assumption mistake. Note that you still haven't voted for anyone or stated suspicion. Just "oh hey Anton may be scum or town it could go either way." Why not pressure him by voting him so that he produces SOMETHING?
Latest post is AWESOME misrep of Kilga. He missed two pages being posted. He didn't fail to read them. Nice accusations by the way.
Nothing but "curiousities" and the such. Note that he has no suspicion whatsoever. Questioning without doing anything.
##VOTE VGT
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 16, 2009, 02:21:18 AM
EDWOP: That should be "he didn't fail to understand what was happening."
durr.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 02:31:07 AM
I missed the case on VgT, but looking at his posts I can definitely see where it's coming from. To add to it he says here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89761#msg89761) that Anthony is repeating my old scumtell and seems fine with the attack, and then here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90017#msg90017) he shifts to 'I'm uncomfortable about the Anthony lynch'. I'm seriously reconsidering my vote now, unless VGT does something AWESOME in the next couple of posts.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 16, 2009, 02:45:09 AM
Other thoughts and strange things:
K4U is strange. Voting Anton for reasons that can be applied to VgT while not seeing VgT's case.
Anton is uggggh. Can't pin an alignment on him because he can go either way. Posts seem anti-town, but that can easily be attributed to Newbness. Will wait for other posts before judging.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kiro on September 16, 2009, 02:52:05 AM
Let's see, it's not going to be worth commenting on everything so I'll stick to the two people I find most scummy.
Re Rou: I'm not seeing how Anthony is so significantly scummy for just backing off when Kilga pokes him. It's pretty knee-jerk in my opinion and I think either newbTown or newbScum have an EQUAL chance of making that mistake. Why you want to highlight this as newbScum over newbTown is not something I understand or agree with for reasons already given in Nietz' #117. Also:
Would you have rather I hadn't brought it up? I was tempted to start a case on him the instant he showed up as third on the wagon but decided it wasn't quite enough. Then he retracted his vote under pressure, which convinced me it was worth pressing him.
It's not like that stopped Kilga from pushing Anthony first. Looks like you're trying to be a little careful over something that at the time shouldn't have been a big deal. Nobody is getting on Kilga for pushing Anthony atm. It reads to me like you trying to find the right time to pursue a case on someone which should not be a concern when it's transitioning from RVS to serious stage.
---
VgT is totally not contributing, taking the time only to talk about WTC Mafia for reasons that aren't going anywhere. So what if Rou backed off on something in that game and people voted him and he flipped Scum? How does that apply to your opinion of the discussion regarding Pesco and Rou and Anthony at that time? You still kept your jokevote on Zakeri when you mention this old game in #53 and #63. And in #123, you go on about nothing pretty much. Don't waste time talking about how newbies tend to act or whatever and scumhunt. You're also switching to a responsive stance rather than a proactive stance which is troublesomely scummy.
---
Rou might be a bit zealous on Anthony, but Anthony himself is on middle ground in my mind (with Anthony's lack of an opinion/vote at the moment bad, but he seems to misunderstand the concept that it's not about proving one's own innocence, but looking for guilt in others) so I'm not quite ready to see Rou as scummy bad yet. In a game where not everyone has contributed meaningfully yet, VgT's looking worse for actively not doing so. So now confirming my initial joke vote on him as serious. For those of us who are a stickler about voting order:
##Unvote VgT ##Vote VgT
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 03:07:44 AM
Re Rou: I'm not seeing how Anthony is so significantly scummy for just backing off when Kilga pokes him. It's pretty knee-jerk in my opinion and I think either newbTown or newbScum have an EQUAL chance of making that mistake. Why you want to highlight this as newbScum over newbTown is not something I understand or agree with for reasons already given in Nietz' #117.
I'm of the opinion that scum - especially newbscum - are more willing to conform to other people's opinions in order to avoid suspicion. Anthony could be doing exactly that, removing his vote on Pesco to try and please Kilga.
Quote
It's not like that stopped Kilga from pushing Anthony first. Looks like you're trying to be a little careful over something that at the time shouldn't have been a big deal. Nobody is getting on Kilga for pushing Anthony atm. It reads to me like you trying to find the right time to pursue a case on someone which should not be a concern when it's transitioning from RVS to serious stage.
I admit that Pesco was irritating me at that point in time to the point where I didn't give the Anthony case as much weight as I should have.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 16, 2009, 03:16:51 AM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 03:28:27 AM
To bed.
Eli is swaying with the wind. Rou is as well to a lesser extent.
Discuss while I have sweet dreams.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 16, 2009, 04:40:27 AM
I guess I should try again to clarify this. The thing I said about Rou in my early-game post was just a joke. I'm pretty sure I already said that the statement wasn't an accusation or any sort of argument, but I guess I have to repeat it again: What I said in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89761#msg89761) was a basically meaningless statement. I was just pointing out a situation I thought was humorous (a parallel between something that had happened in a previous game, with the roles reversed.) Apparently nobody remembered that previous situation so I guess instead it came off as something else entirely to everyone. My mistake. In the future I will preface all of my accusations and arguments with the phrase "Real Talk." (Real Talk: that is a joke.)
I agree that the discussion with pesco was basically pointless, because he was pressing me for proof or some crap for something that wasn't even an argument to begin with. I was trying to get that across to him by responding, but I guess it would have been better if I just ignored him or something. Hopefully this will be the last time people bug me about it.
Apparently I misread what Kilga said about missing 2 pages in the thread. I was blending that with what he said about quick-skimming UK's posts. However, my point stands: Kilga, I don't think you can offer anything of value if you don't even know the full situation. The proof would be you admitting you missed important things by skimming UK's post. If you're missing information, I don't care what you think, because you're probably wrong. Mafia is a game of the informed minority vs. the uninformed minority, so a lack of any information is crippling. If you can use 'oh, I missed that when I was speedreading' as an excuse every time someone calls you out, that's no good. People have to be liable for their mistakes, or the game doesn't work.
It's true that I haven't seriously voted for anyone, but that's how I play. I don't press people with votes, I press with questions, and leave the votes for people I would actually like to see lynched. I like to see how people respond, whereas you guys like to see a more direct, "this is what I think about X" approach. I'll try to reconcile the two.
I didn't like the Anthony thing because a) he was a super easy lynch target b) if he was lynched, the scum could get away basically scot free because hey, look at how scummy he acted and c) I didn't really get why everyone jumped on that particular guy instead of the others. Since Kilga had started the whole thing I was suspicious of him, so I asked him about it, and he basically told me I wasn't trying hard enough without giving up any information. That plus admitting he was posting without actually reading everything made me Not Happy about him. So yes, I think Kilga is scummy.
Prods: - Inactive dudes. Suwako made the 5th joke vote on pesco and then posted later saying "now it's serioius, don't care about whatever else, cya" and Serpentarius hasn't posted since his joke vote for Edible. Inactivity is the most basic form of anti-town behavior, and it's a pain in the ass because you can't really tell if someone's scum or just lazy/distracted town. You don't have to produce a page a day, but willful inactivity's a bad sign. More posting, please! - Wafflers: To Eliphas my thing with pesco was a bad reason to call me scummy, but I guess he changed his mind at some point between when he said that and when he switched up his vote since he used it as an argument against me. He also called me out for apparently being wishy-washy about Anthony, and then did exactly that in a later post. It's OK to be hypocritical, but if you call me scum for doing something you should try not to do it yourself. Rou got into a dumb thing with pesco himself, and even pointed out that our situation was the same, but later said I was suspicious because of the thing he had earlier said was supposed to be a joke. I don't have an issue with people being bothered by that post, since I didn't make it clear I was just foolin' around, but it's strange to say it's nothing major and then change your mind completely when people start voting me for it. - Kilga: I'll throw your words back at you: post more substance. Less one-liners, please. Getting info from you is like pulling teeth, and it shouldn't be like that. I'm not saying you haven't done anything; it's kind of the opposite. Although you haven't said much you've started two bandwagons already, and it's taking people multiple prods in your direction to get you to clarify and expand on what you're talking about.
This is a long post. Sorry for that. I'll keep them more broken up in the future, I just thought I should try to wrap up as much as I could at once.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 04:55:32 AM
However, my point stands: Kilga, I don't think you can offer anything of value if you don't even know the full situation. The proof would be you admitting you missed important things by skimming UK's post. If you're missing information, I don't care what you think, because you're probably wrong.
"I can't refute the case against me so I'm going to cite an unrelated event and use that to try to pass the case against me off as stupid."
- Kilga: I'll throw your words back at you: post more substance. Less one-liners, please. Getting info from you is like pulling teeth, and it shouldn't be like that. I'm not saying you haven't done anything; it's kind of the opposite. Although you haven't said much you've started two bandwagons already, and it's taking people multiple prods in your direction to get you to clarify and expand on what you're talking about.
I will talk more when I deem it necessary, and not before. Plenty of people are already talking way too fucking much; I'm not adding to that noise.
If you have any further questions about my "VGT has posted a lot and said absolutely nothing meaningful" case, though, I'll be glad to answer those.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 04:57:34 AM
EBWOP: I was 2/3 in the first two days last game while doing my standard skim-read style of monster posts.
Just in case you keep trying to push the "probably wrong" idea. Because, well, it's probably wrong.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 05:05:57 AM
I should not be looking at Mafia at 6am when I've just pulled an all-nighter, but here I am anyway.
Quote
Rou got into a dumb thing with pesco himself, and even pointed out that our situation was the same, but later said I was suspicious because of the thing he had earlier said was supposed to be a joke. I don't have an issue with people being bothered by that post, since I didn't make it clear I was just foolin' around, but it's strange to say it's nothing major and then change your mind completely when people start voting me for it.
I didn't bring up the argument with Pesco as a point in my case - I'm willing to put that down to Pesco being sort of a jerk (a jerk who, by the way, needs to start talking again). I was focusing on the apparent conflicting views on Anthony, which have been clarified.
Suwako, I fear, may either have a post restriction or be faking one. Serp I actually forgot about until VgT brought him up. I can't remember, is this meant to be a Bastard Mod game? Because if it is then we have a level of mod WIFOM on our hands...T_T
There's something reeeeally awkward about this Kilga/VgT thing. Both of them are basically attacking each other without bothering to refute the other's case, which makes me feel really weird. I do feel that VgT's post has at least produced something, certainly more than some other players, though the fact we had to wait so long for it is annoying. Really not sure what to do with my vote right now, to be honest, because there are three or four people I wouldn't mind putting it on (Anthony, UK, VgT, with Kilga trailing behind them).
Quote
I will talk more when I deem it necessary, and not before. Plenty of people are already talking way too fucking much; I'm not adding to that noise.
This is consistent with skimming the WoTs and does sound very much like Kilga meta, but meta can be abused. Not sure where I stand on Kilga right now, but I'd say somewhere between neutral and slight scum.
Seriously though we have way too many people just not posting. Did anyone else know that Tenshi was playing? >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 16, 2009, 05:11:01 AM
Kilga: I'm not really interested in having a catfight with you either. It's not beneficial to anyone to bicker about dumb crap during dead periods.
fake edit: Rou beat me to it I guess.
Rou: What you said was "To add to it he says here that Anthony is repeating my old scumtell and seems fine with the attack, and then here he shifts to 'I'm uncomfortable about the Anthony lynch'." You had previously said "Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion." I was confused since at one point you said it was a joke, and later you took it as me saying Anthony was scum godfather. I guess that's resolved, though.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 05:14:56 AM
Rou: What you said was "To add to it he says here that Anthony is repeating my old scumtell and seems fine with the attack, and then here he shifts to 'I'm uncomfortable about the Anthony lynch'." You had previously said "Not seeing the case on VgT. Like what happened with me, it feels like a joke comment that got taken out of proportion." I was confused since at one point you said it was a joke, and later you took it as me saying Anthony was scum godfather. I guess that's resolved, though.
Again, that was in reference to Pesco. At that time I honestly thought you meant the whole attack on Anthony - it was later, if I recall, that you turned around and said you didn't suspect him.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 05:32:06 AM
Roukan: What case of VGT's am I supposed to be refuting right now? That I don't have enough "substance"? I've given you two people that are probably scum, one that's probably town and a slight feeling on a couple of other players. That's already enough for Day 1. I'm not throwing out piles of WoT shit on people that don't matter. There are enough people doing that already.
I've already gone over why VGT and Anthony are probably scum. Do you want to know why Zakeri's probably town? Because he made a good townie argument for why UK is scum. Do you want to know why I came to this conclusion? Read the argument yourself, it's pretty self-evident.
We can throw VGT plugging his fingers into his ears in a distinctly "lalalalalalalalala I can't hear you" fashion in his latest refusal to refute my case onto the case against him, by the way.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 05:38:43 AM
VGT has posted a lot and said absolutely nothing meaningful
This is the argument I am standing behind. This is what I would like refuted instead of danced around.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 16, 2009, 05:40:56 AM
Your case is that I haven't done anything. My response was that I tried to do something by posting my thoughts about the Anthony thing and then asking questions. pesco kept bugging me about my early post so I tried to deal with it and move on. That's all there is to that story.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 05:47:04 AM
And asking questions != providing opinions. Asking questions is not doing anything meaningful, because no one can get a read on what stances you hold. Providing opinions does. The "I think ______ is scummy because ______" approach that you mentioned before is used because it provides opinions that can be read into.
The only opinion about the Anthony situation I can find is "anything after 2 jokevotes on the same guy is kind of weird" which is meaningless for scumhunting purposes. The rest of it is either asking questions or straight-up journalism.
So no, you haven't done anything meaningful.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 05:51:04 AM
Let me make a quick summary of shit that I recall from my brief read.
Rou: Why is the THIRD vote on me so specifically a scummy point? You've brought this up as an issue against Anthony. Why is it only the third vote and not the fourth or fifth.
You know damn well what my time zone is. I just got up and you want to call me for not posting. Shit grasping is shitty.
Quote
I didn't bring up the argument with Pesco as a point in my case - I'm willing to put that down to Pesco being sort of a jerk (a jerk who, by the way, needs to start talking again). I was focusing on the apparent conflicting views on Anthony, which have been clarified.
Nice one. Play victim before I even start being a jerk.
Briefly remind us why your vote is on Anthony.
Suwako: Cut the crap. If you can't post decent content, let Kanako take over. I know you two are hydra.
Your case is that I haven't done anything. My response was that I tried to do something by posting my thoughts about the Anthony thing and then asking questions. pesco kept bugging me about my early post so I tried to deal with it and move on. That's all there is to that story.
The summary point I see now is that we don't like how you dealt with our exchange. If I pressing at a misunderstood point, you didn't try rectify it before it got out of hand. You respond to a serious question about your joke with another joke.
##Unvote ##Vote VgT
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 05:52:32 AM
What irks me the most about the argument is posts like this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90039#msg90039) and this. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90042#msg90042) They look almost designed to antagonise, and the fight is getting sort of petty between them, so I'm wondering what the odds of scum/scum are.
Quote
Rou: Why is the THIRD vote on me so specifically a scummy point? You've brought this up as an issue against Anthony. Why is it only the third vote and not the fourth or fifth.
I thought that was how the meta call went on the MS wiki - third on the wagon is most likely to be scum.
Yeah, I'm gonna stop looking at Mafia until I get some goddamn sleep. This fatigue isn't helping in the slightest. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 16, 2009, 05:57:28 AM
Hey, like I said, I gotta shrine to run, don't expect more than one or two posts per (real) day outta me. Not like anything more than that is useful anyhow. Kids these days and their newfangled "page 7 by tomorrow!" nonsense? I ain't readin all of that. All these pyokosts don't mean nutthin, just a lotta catfights and going in circles.
I like circles. Hoops, you know? They really give the limbs a workout.
Oh yeah, they're also implements of war. People tossin hoops'n goin with the dragging on, that's not very pyoko at all. Willing to vote VGameT because he posted a wall on day 1, not particularly enthused though so I'll stay on Pesco for now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 06:01:27 AM
Don't like how Rou jumped on him and waved aside his explanations as invalid, using the all-too-common "it's not noobish, it's scummy and anti-town" argument. This might be a case of "too Rou to be scum", but I'm kinda paranoid of people manipulating their meta, so I'm keeping my suspicion on him.
pesco, however, seem worse for the time being. He jumps on the Anthony wagon as well with the same kind of throwaway reasoning, then proceeds to FoS (ugh) and press VgT on a mere technicality. It's particularly bad because we've already seen people referring to past games before without giving links, and now you suddenly decide this is scummy.
Don't see much of a case on UK's actions at face value. Her prod and unvote seems to be exactly what to expect from a sensible player when coming upon a newbie mistake. Of course, she could be trying to act like a proper player (paranoid, remember?), but I don't see scum intent right now.
Raise a paw if this is classic Neitzisalwaysscummy. o/
I facepalm at Rou. Vig this one before LyLo kthnx.
Suwako, get off the phone. I want to talk to Kanako. Vig this one tonight.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Affinity on September 16, 2009, 06:18:38 AM
wtf if I weren't around Suwako people would be dying by now and if you weren't here nothing would happen so yeah you don't deserve to run a shrine in favour of saying something about this game.
---
@Kitten4:
Well, fair enough, but my case on u-mu is not merely on him having a weak case, more of taking things out of context and playing around with words and the RVS thing that I don't think should even vaguely point to Roukanken being scum. It's also one thing to voice opinions, and another to force them on people without elaboration, which is what you seem to be doing in your post. You can't have your cake and eat it, though I don't know what that means. Furthermore, you're just having a glancing view of things without any real explanations; mafia is not the spectator sport you make it out to be.
Though, to be honest I have to admit that Rou's newest post about 'third on the bandwagon' totally feels like an extremely blind application of 'theory' and 'statistics', and is not what I expected him to say at all. I thought it was an observation. Still, there are more than adequate reasons for voting Anthony, and a bad one mixed in with adequate ones isn't that bad a thing to be voting for over Eliphas in my opinion.
---
As for VgT, I would like you to clarify on this statement you made:
Quote
You basically can't tell the difference between a new townie going "I give up, I can't do or say anything, when I flip you'll all feel dumb" and a new scum doing the same thing.
Then what do you propose to do to catch Anthony if he is scum? And also, if someone were to accuse you of scummy, opportunistic, late bandwagon jumping on the virtue of you not voting anyone beforehand, what would you say? While I'm all for screwing defending in favour of offense, and not getting bogged down by what you did and what you did not do, I'm not very appreciative of your tone of voice nor your playstyle.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 16, 2009, 06:27:43 AM
The summary point I see now is that we don't like how you dealt with our exchange. If I pressing at a misunderstood point, you didn't try rectify it before it got out of hand. You respond to a serious question about your joke with another joke.
I said it was a joke in my first response, as well as saying if you could get me to the old board archives I could link you to it, since that was apparently what you wanted. I guess you missed the first bit until later on when I had to point it out again. I'm partially to blame since I didn't make it clear originally, but you pressed it quite a bit. If you wanted to know my opinion on Anthony or Rou, you should have asked directly instead of demanding I provide evidence for some random thing I remembered from a while ago. I guess we both missed each other's point.
Suwako, I think you're missing a premise somewhere. I did make a long post, but I'm not sure how that specifically makes me scummy, or moreso than anyone else who posted a lot so far. As for the rest of your post, if you're implying that you have a limited amount of posts per realtme game dictated by your role, you shouldn't waste them. The same thing I said to Kilga applies to you. Posting little and saying you're too busy to read through everything is fishy.
Prod to Anthony. You haven't posted much of anything since the heat fell off of you. I guess it is 12am on a weeknight, though. I've been up for about 27 hours, so I should probably go lie down. I hope there are lots of interesting posts waiting in the morning!
oh a new post. Let's get to this first.
Quote from: Affinity
As for VgT, I would like you to clarify on this statement you made:
Then what do you propose to do to catch Anthony if he is scum? And also, if someone were to accuse you of scummy, opportunistic, late bandwagon jumping on the virtue of you not voting anyone beforehand, what would you say? While I'm all for screwing defending in favour of offense, and not getting bogged down by what you did and what you did not do, I'm not very appreciative of your tone of voice nor your playstyle.
My point was about what was happening right then, which was some people piling onto Anthony and him kind of flailing around and saying "I don't know what to do." If he bails on the game entirely like I said in that quote, you can pretty much read into it either way. I don't think a case for either side could really be argued invalid, so you would have to either lynch him or scan him or in some way use the game mechanics to reveal his alignment. But he's not really a target anymore, so I'm assuming he'll act differently. You can read into what he does after that, since it's no longer a case built out of one incident where he screwed up and the game rapidly turned against him. I just wanted to warn against everybody getting in his face, since it's tempting for new players to resign if things look really bad at the moment.
As for point 2, I don't really throw votes around like everyone else does. I've always considered it as like saying "I'm down with this guy dying, right now," so I like to leave it be until everyone's posted and I can think about things properly. I think it's only an issue if I do as you say and jump on a late bandwagon with no forewarning. I don't think I'm keeping my suspects list secret, and I don't plan on surprise voting late in the day, but if you think the way I act is scummy you should say so when it happens.
Another long post. I blame Affinity. This'll be the last one for the night.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 16, 2009, 07:36:47 AM
So far the whole case on VgT seems based on the whole thinking back to a previous game, which honestly seems like a crap reason, since people started to suspect him on just that, he defended with longer posts to just get people off his case but then it just led to more suspicion, overall what I'm saying is that it's a crap reason.
Now for the whole noobtown or noobscum case against me only has a bit behind it's self, that being that rou leaning towards scum due to one mistake which he views as a scummy move, and with the whole being forced to hunt, it was either just starting to hunt, or do nothing at all, which the later of the two would just make me look even more scummy, so I started to hunt, even if my attempts were crap swings and bad ideas, I was at least attempting to get something out of this, with Rou holding tight onto this case, I'm starting to honestly lean towards Rou possibly being scummy trying to get me lynched to keep their numbers high, overall the only hunting I've done is crap, since I can't find much else, and Rou's case on me is crap for holding onto basic beginner mistakes, which is why I'm starting to think he's scum, so
##Vote:Roukanken
also before people start going on about the whole 'holding back my vote' lead, it was because it would have just led to more crap due to me voting for a bad reason, and now I have at least decent, if not minor reason to vote for someone
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 16, 2009, 08:20:52 AM
Also, I just remembered the decent amount of people who have been inactive, with that there's a good possibility most of the scum is hiding out in there to keep the heat off of them, and let us just fight amongst ourselves, so I'm just throwing out that anyone who ends up coming in late has a better possibility of being scum.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Hououin Kyouma on September 16, 2009, 08:36:51 AM
WTF... one day of not logging in and this happens.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 16, 2009, 11:12:02 AM
Going out now, going to be gone for around 8 hours or so.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Serp on September 16, 2009, 11:50:46 AM
Well, looks like Anthony is setting himself up as the obligatory D1 newbie policy lynch. Not that it needs to be said again, but his switch off Pesco and the subsequent reasoning were both bad. It's consistent with newbie kneejerk panicking, but it sure as heck doesn't make him look more townie. Pretty much everything since then has just been him trying to make himself a less likely lynch, which of course doesn't make me less likely to consider him a viable lynch.
UncertainKitten's clearing of Anthony looks bad because there's really no reasoning behind it. If Anthony is town, then this move could be scum trying to get town cred by saying "I told you so" after his flip. Gut town reads are trash, and gut scum reads aren't much better. Nietz falls into the same fallacy.
Quote from: Nietz
The Anthony wagon sucks. It started in what looked a lot like a innocent newb mistake, he got proded for it and reacted pretty much like an innocent newb would.
How would you expect a guilty newb to react differently?
Suwako's flaunting of his lack of contribution is so flagrant that I can see why everyone's hoping it's a post restriction. We'll have to see how it turns out. I also don't like Kilga looking like he's trying to put in the minimal effort possible, then handwaving it by claiming in 148 that he's usually right so he doesn't need to explain his thought process.
VgameT has a lot of words out there now, but most of them are just justifying his own actions along with a few pretty weak prods. There's a lack of solid opinions on other players' scumminess.
It's true that I haven't seriously voted for anyone, but that's how I play. I don't press people with votes, I press with questions, and leave the votes for people I would actually like to see lynched.
This is an anti-town way to play. You might be able to set your thoughts straight on who's scummy and who's not, and then help them get lynched at the end of the day, but it makes it much harder for others to follow your own opinions and get a read on you.
Alright, after my reread, I'm seeing Anthony acting just like Zengar did last game. Make an early faux pas, catch a little heat for it, do some waffling/random suspicion slinging, and then when prodded to place a vote, drop it on some weak throwaway case. If there's no distinguishing it from newbscum, it's probably newbscum.
##Vote: Anthony
VgameT is a close second for squriming around and doing everything but scumhunting. UncertainKitten and Nietz are probably tied for my terciary lynch due to gutclearing Anthony, which looks bad however he flips. I'll blanket cover the other cases by saying that none of them are good enough to earn my vote, nor bad enough to be scummy.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 12:25:33 PM
So far the whole case on VgT seems based on the whole thinking back to a previous game, which honestly seems like a crap reason, since people started to suspect him on just that, he defended with longer posts to just get people off his case but then it just led to more suspicion, overall what I'm saying is that it's a crap reason.
I also don't like Kilga looking like he's trying to put in the minimal effort possible, then handwaving it by claiming in 148 that he's usually right so he doesn't need to explain his thought process.
This is hilariously off the mark. That post was in response to VGT handwaving me in the first place with his "I don't care what you have to say because if you're not reading every single thing you're probably wrong" when the things I said I didn't read had nothing to do with my opinion on him. How did you miss this entirely?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 16, 2009, 12:34:00 PM
MotK Mafia: Dare to go to sleep.
-----
I agree with Pesc(9) that Nietz107.5 looks like Scum Radio. While the point against Pesco isn't terrible (in regards to suspicion due to VgameT not checking his sources), the rest of it is weak "well yes this person did something scummy, but newbcard/meta/ambiguousconspiracy lets me park my vote elsewhere".
All of this talk about post restrictions probably needs to stop. Now. I'm fairly confident that each person that wants to is speaking in character. Which means that you can stop giving S.Moriya a pass any time now.
Quote from: Nietz 117
Seriously, everyone ALWAYS says "more newbscum than newbtown" every time they vote a newbie.
No.
Quote from: VgameT 146
It's true that <insert suspicious behavior here>, but that's how I play.
Don't say this again. Ever.
Quote from: Roukanken 149
I can't remember, is this meant to be a Bastard Mod game? Because if it is then we have a level of mod WIFOM on our hands...T_T
Again, don't say this again. Ever.
Quote from: Roukanken 157
I thought that was how the meta call went on the MS wiki - third on the wagon is most likely to be scum.
Notice that I already said this about 75 posts ago. Do you understand why the wiki says that?
Quote from: Affinity 160
my case on u-mu is not merely on him having a weak case, more of taking things out of context and playing around with words and the RVS thing that I don't think should even vaguely point to Roukanken being scum.
[[modcolor]citation needed[/modcolor]] Other people seem to be seeing the same things I am, so.
Why is VgameT continuing to not express opinions on people? Kilga and everyone else have pretty blatantly told him to do so.
Anthony's OMGUS on Rou is pretty lol. Count the number of 'I's in that case versus the number of 'Rou's, 'he's, and 'his's. He's not a bad lynch, but I'm not going to join the wagon yet.
I can understand the hate on VgameT for reasons everyone has already said, but I think Nietz is a more compelling target right now.
##Unvote: Roukanken ##Vote: Nietz (L-8) Rou isn't off the hook yet.
------
Quote from: Rou
Then the easiest solution would be to make sure that newbies are at least competent before they show up here. I remember Zak (I think) saying we should get people to play one Newbie Game on MS before playing here, and recently with KGH and Zengar I'm growing more and more convinced that that might be a good idea.
You overestimate ms's Newbie games. Or underestimate MotK games, but the point seems to be that you don't want newbies in your Mafia, so.
Going to school early soon in hopes of being able to learn how to do the homework that's due at 5 today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 12:52:59 PM
^ This is how you write a Day 1 wall, people. Take notes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 01:21:06 PM
Dig up Bamboo Forest from the dark depths for us Kilga. I know you can.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Affinity on September 16, 2009, 01:25:49 PM
@u-mu:
Quote
However, when you choose to start being serious is worth looking at. To that end, if you're going to say something like HAY JOKE DISCUSSION ENDS NAO, I would expect you to have a solid backing behind it
Really? I mean... really? This is a question of semantics. Also, how does ignoring one possible scummy point on Anthony make Rou any scummier (e.g ignoring the defense in favour of the vote)
As for, Kitten4u, I would like to see more elaboration on why you don't agree and why you do agree other than just saying stuff. For now, she's to me slightly scummier than the likes of VGameT and Nietz, the case on u-mu seems to be fading away a little with all this new material and his actions.
##Unvote ##Vote: Kitten4u
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Serp on September 16, 2009, 01:48:02 PM
This is hilariously off the mark. That post was in response to VGT handwaving me in the first place with his "I don't care what you have to say because if you're not reading every single thing you're probably wrong" when the things I said I didn't read had nothing to do with my opinion on him. How did you miss this entirely?
I saw that, but it's not relevant to my gripe. You were excusing yourself in advance for not reading others' posts, and for not making a whole lot of posts yourself, using some pretty bad self-meta. This is a sixteen player game, so there's going to be a lot more text to read through, but that also means that staying below the radar is a lot more attractive to scum. It doesn't render any cases you make worthless, but it makes you yourself look scummier. Consider this a finger of suspicion.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 16, 2009, 02:04:33 PM
While I'm here it is beginning to feel like the "throwing shit and seeing what sticks" tell is Rou's tatic at the moment. I like my vote more.
Funny, that's exactly how I'm seeing pesco. He jumped on the newbwagon and then immediately FoS'ed VgT on a bullshit point. When he comes back and VgT's case has actually gone farther than Anthony's, he switches to it. And now a meta bait on me that umu actually takes.
I still need to try and read through the whole VgT/Kilga exchange. Don't really see any vote restriction excuse on Suwako, to me that's just plain active lurking. Umu doesn't look good. a long waffly post and parks a vote on me out of nothing... accusing me of parking a vote on who I find scummier?
Don't see any reason to let go of pesco so far.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 03:19:44 PM
Irritated at a newb for making back-to-back newb mistakes?
Irritated because at least one of these mistakes is clearly scummy, while the other is anti-Town.
Anthony posts...and his idea of hunting is more or less an OMGUS on me. T_T
Explain which is which and why. This looks like dodging the question Anthony asked you.
More voting (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89898#msg89898) needed instead of waffles (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89904#msg89904)
You could ask him to give an opinion on me too ya'know.
Suwako's 'No real reason to move' does not entail to 'A reason to stay'. Bad linguistics are scummy. Notes appended to the post.
Tengulicious (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90055#msg90055) and I'd like to see you do more (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90078#msg90078) to show us your alignment.
So you blame me (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90093#msg90093) huh?
While I'm here it is beginning to feel like the "throwing shit and seeing what sticks" tell is Rou's tatic at the moment. I like my vote more.
Funny, that's exactly how I'm seeing pesco. He jumped on the newbwagon and then immediately FoS'ed VgT on a bullshit point. When he comes back and VgT's case has actually gone farther than Anthony's, he switches to it.
The act of jumping on Anthony and FoSing VgT as one action is the only way it can be done. I don't have 2 votes. Here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89822#msg89822) I already said I wanted to vote him.
And why would it be so wrong for me to vote accordingly when the game state shows such a switch is valid?
Notes on Linguistics are attached.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 04:41:56 PM
I saw that, but it's not relevant to my gripe. You were excusing yourself in advance for not reading others' posts, and for not making a whole lot of posts yourself, using some pretty bad self-meta.
Which self-meta are you referring to?
- If you're referring to "I was 2/3 last game" thing, that was a joke designed to barb back at VGT's hilariously incorrect and inflammatory post. In addition, "excusing yourself in advance" implies I guessed he would do that. - If you're referring to "I missed UK's case switch last game", I'll admit right now that I largely skim or outright ignore walls regardless of my alignment. UK told me to "deal with" her walls, so I pointed out that I had been dealing with it for quite some time.
This is a sixteen player game, so there's going to be a lot more text to read through, but that also means that staying below the radar is a lot more attractive to scum.
Then maybe people should stop posting walls on Day Fucking 1! It's a lot harder to "fly under the radar" when town doesn't give scum a radar to fly under.
I forgot to point this out earlier. I've flip-flopped on Youmu - his most recent post is a massive step up from his Roukan case.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kiro on September 16, 2009, 06:02:39 PM
VgT: You think you're going to get out of this loop with Kilga if you don't place a vote on anyone? He thinks you're scum and is voting you while you think he's scummy, but have no vote on him. You're not adequately explaining what's holding you back on that or on pursuing anybody else. We're in the middle of Day 1 now, we need some stances from you and the weight of a vote so that you're accountable for it.
Rou is getting weirder for a bunch of speculation and that 3rd vote thing. I'm surprised you tacked the latter on along with it being in the MS wiki in #157. Especially because this is in regards to an RVS wagon where people of either alignment can and do intentionally jump on wagons to stir up discussion. You tacking this on as a justification after the fact Anthony backtracked looks like you're padding a case that doesn't have much else spurring it along.
None of the recent switching of cases has really convinced me to move away from VgT or possibly Roukan although the lack of input from people like Suwako and Tenshi can change things.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 16, 2009, 06:32:10 PM
Vote Count: I'm Really Happy For You, I'll Let You Finish VGameT (4) - Kiro, Kilgamayan, Eliphas, pesco Pesco (2) - Suwako Moriya, Nietz Anthony (3) - Roukanken, Kitten4U, Serpentarius Roukanken (2) - UncertainKitten, Anthony UncertainKitten (1) - Zakeri Nietz (1)- u? Kitten4U (1)- Affinity
A little under 48 hours remain.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 06:34:27 PM
So that's a Tenshi and a VgT not exercising their democratic right.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 16, 2009, 06:46:57 PM
The act of jumping on Anthony and FoSing VgT as one action is the only way it can be done. I don't have 2 votes. Here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89822#msg89822) I already said I wanted to vote him.
And why would it be so wrong for me to vote accordingly when the game state shows such a switch is valid?
Because you were voting for a newbie wagon likely to end in mislynch while trying to put forward another newbie wagon likely to end in mislynch. When other players take the case forward, you move your vote to it, since, as you mentioned, the game state now makes it easy. This is what flinging shit around is.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 07:07:42 PM
That's a lot of likely to end in mislynches you attributing. Do you imply that Anthony and VgT are both town?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 07:08:07 PM
It's 7:30pm, and I just woke up. Pulling a UK-style catchup post right now. (Speaking of which, where is she?)
Suwako is utterly disgusting. His last post consists of 'I don't give a shit about reading walls, VgT is bad for writing them, but I'll stay with Pesco.' WHY exactly are we letting him away with this?
Quote from: Pesco 159
I facepalm at Rou. Vig this one before LyLo kthnx.
GJ with accusation and no reasoning.
Quote
Though, to be honest I have to admit that Rou's newest post about 'third on the bandwagon' totally feels like an extremely blind application of 'theory' and 'statistics', and is not what I expected him to say at all. I thought it was an observation. Still, there are more than adequate reasons for voting Anthony, and a bad one mixed in with adequate ones isn't that bad a thing to be voting for over Eliphas in my opinion.
Let me get this straight because by now it's been taken waaay out of context. I didn't think that being third on the wagon was enough to make Anthony scum, I thought it was enough to make him worth pressuring after I was happy with pushing Pesco. It was the things he did later (panicking and moving his vote away, lack of actual hunting etc) that have me convinced now.
Anthony pulls...an OMGUS! How surprising. And his defense basically reads 'Rou's case against me is poor because it's okay that people had to ask me to scumhunt, and giving nothing but useless information is okay. In comparison he's scummy for attacking me based on these points.' He even admits that this case is all he has.
Affinity 173 is a weird one for me. Affinity decides to throw every other case aside to attack Kitten, who really hasn't said much all game. Not sure about this one, not really convinced bythe case quite yet.
Quote from: Nietz 175
No, you're just doing that thing when you keep repeating the points people are arguing against like it would make them more valid.
Fact: Anthony was the third on the wagon, and explicitly said he was simply jumping on the wagon. Fact: When Kilga asked him he jumped on Pesco, he panicked and removed his vote, later claiming it was because he was 'submissive'. Fact: Anthony did no original scumhunting of his own until he was prompted, and when he did it was poor quality. I don't understand how you can really argue that any of these didn't happen.
Pesco 176: Already explained here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89896#msg89896) that it was the retraction of the vote on top of the third on the wagon thing that made me notably suspicious of Anthony.
Quote
Explain which is which and why. This looks like dodging the question Anthony asked you.
Retracting a vote under mild pressure is very much a scummy play for reasons I've already brought up. Lack of hunting can potentially be explained as poor play but it's still anti-Town at best.
Quote
You could ask him to give an opinion on me too ya'know.
UK was the other big topic of discussion at the time. All I remember you doing was picking at VgT and me for minor points.
Quote from: Kilga 177
- If you're referring to "I was 2/3 last game" thing, that was a joke designed to barb back at VGT's hilariously incorrect and inflammatory post.
So basically, you're trolling each other. T_T
Quote from: Kiro 178
Rou is getting weirder for a bunch of speculation and that 3rd vote thing. I'm surprised you tacked the latter on along with it being in the MS wiki in #157. Especially because this is in regards to an RVS wagon where people of either alignment can and do intentionally jump on wagons to stir up discussion. You tacking this on as a justification after the fact Anthony backtracked looks like you're padding a case that doesn't have much else spurring it along.
I've already made my case upfront and clear. Don't just say 'it looks like you're grasping' and dismiss my case based on one post.
Quote from: Edible 179
Vote Count: I'm Really Happy For You, I'll Let You Finish
But Bamboo Forest was one of the best Mafia games of all time
Okay, in short, the amount of lurking in this game is horrendous. Besides Suwako's 'lol I'm not really posting' bullshit, we have Tenshi sticking his head in saying 'oh I missed some stuff' without even TRYING to comment.
Seriously, though, as good a case as I think Anthony still is, I can't believe we've gone for so long without anyone throwing a vote on Suwako. We can sit and complain about potential post restrictions all we want, but if he's scum he's basically flying under the radar with embarrassing ease.
Quote
Kids these days and their newfangled "page 7 by tomorrow!" nonsense? I ain't readin all of that.
You must be new here. Isn't this Suwako basically admitting to doing what everyone's accusing Kilga of doing?
##Unvote: Anthony Vote: Suwako (L-8)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 07:08:45 PM
EBWOP: VgT is not a newbie IIRC.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 07:24:51 PM
Rou: Why is the THIRD vote on me so specifically a scummy point? You've brought this up as an issue against Anthony. Why is it only the third vote and not the fourth or fifth.
I thought that was how the meta call went on the MS wiki - third on the wagon is most likely to be scum.
You post this. We're all taking it to mean that you believe it, especially when you've listed it as a point against Anthony each time you've been asked.
Quote
Let me get this straight because by now it's been taken waaay out of context. I didn't think that being third on the wagon was enough to make Anthony scum, I thought it was enough to make him worth pressuring after I was happy with pushing Pesco. It was the things he did later (panicking and moving his vote away, lack of actual hunting etc) that have me convinced now.
And now it's a flipflop. I think my call to have you vig'd is quite valid if we don't lynch you now.
It's clear that you've read my post 176. No answer to Anthony's question. No explanation of the post saying one of his mistakes was scummy and the other one anti-town. I asked for an explanation so that we can hold you to your words, this shouldn't have been difficult to answer.
Too many scums for me to vote you all right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
So, as soon as he makes one scummy point I HAVE NO CHOICE but to move over to him? The Pesco lynch was making some decent progress, and getting someone to L-3 or L-2 would have let to some useful, fruitful discussion.
Quote
It's clear that you've read my post 176. No answer to Anthony's question. No explanation of the post saying one of his mistakes was scummy and the other one anti-town. I asked for an explanation so that we can hold you to your words, this shouldn't have been difficult to answer.
...Are you fucking kidding me? Did you even READ my last post?
In terms of 'what if it hadn't been Anthony 3rd':
Quote from: Rou 101
It was that on top of 'doing it for the wagon', really. If other people had joke posted votes at that point I'd probably have been fine with it.
In terms of Anthony's two mistakes:
Quote from: Rou, LAST FREAKING POST
Retracting a vote under mild pressure is very much a scummy play for reasons I've already brought up. Lack of hunting can potentially be explained as poor play but it's still anti-Town at best.
I GAVE you your answer. Is this whole 'not reading other people's posts' thing a growing trend or something?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 08:58:39 PM
It didn't look like you had answered since there was an even more glaring hole in your play that you don't appear to want to respond to.
You've said third on the wagon is scum according to the wiki, which we are under the assumption that you fully endorse, and then you've said that point is not enough to make Anthony scum. Communicate to us what went on there.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 09:07:59 PM
You've said third on the wagon is scum according to the wiki, which we are under the assumption that you fully endorse, and then you've said that point is not enough to make Anthony scum. Communicate to us what went on there.
I'm not saying that third on the wagon is absolute concrete scum, I'm saying it's a good starting point for suspicion, and then Anthony's later actions made me more convinced he was scum. That should be obvious enough. You're just calling me out on semantics here.
I'm sick of repeating myself on this point. Seriously, you just asked me the same question three times in a row.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 09:14:05 PM
Yay, catch up to page 7. Hope you enjoy another wall everyone.
VgT 146 is better, but lacks action. Get in gear!
Quote
I didn't bring up the argument with Pesco as a point in my case - I'm willing to put that down to Pesco being sort of a jerk (a jerk who, by the way, needs to start talking again). I was focusing on the apparent conflicting views on Anthony, which have been clarified.
Who might be in class or asleep at the time of this post, it being reasonably early there at this time. So, are you going to try to poke other people you should probably know better about? And poke them with stuff that's somewhat inconsequential anyway?
Quote
This is consistent with skimming the WoTs and does sound very much like Kilga meta, but meta can be abused. Not sure where I stand on Kilga right now, but I'd say somewhere between neutral and slight scum.
Oh, I consider Kilga skimming a null tell for the most part. Meta as you said. But I still will call him out on it since he's not getting all the info.
Pesco 156 is valid. Also reinforced my earlier point against Rou.
Quote
I thought that was how the meta call went on the MS wiki - third on the wagon is most likely to be scum.
You do realize that that's a discredited tell, right? Precisely because it's in the wiki actually.
Suwako appears to be doing the best she can against a PR. I HOPE it lifts on page 7, given it's repetition.
I also am not sure if she can vote for reals...
Don't like VgT 163. The attack on Suwako feels like "easy target" and not reading between the lines like you SHOULD be when someone is obv PR'd.
Anthony 164 has a flat lie about "starting to hunt". But whatever, let's continue reading...and basically OMGUS's Rou. You have nothing else on Rou besides (the admittedly accurate), "crap case on me" thing? Not sure how I feel. How about other people Anthony?
165 isn't really useful.
Angel Milk should, yanno, ACTUALLY POST.
Uh huh at Serpy. Basically can't argue taste. "gut town/scum reads are crap" is a statement I disagree with. I'll grant your theory might be accurate. But it's not very useful without Anthony's alignment as well as the fact that I could still be insightful town.
Serpy is right about VGTs gem, which I admittedly missed. I guess I'm pulling a Kilga, sorry.
Quote
Which means that you can stop giving S.Moriya a pass any time now.
I feel it being a PR since I think that the "would vote VGT" is actually in response to the case, not the stated reason. But maybe I'm just batshit :P.
Kilga 171 wants to make me quote spam. Over and over.
Nietz 175. I disagree, Pesco hasn't been throwing out a million suspicions and trying to see what takes. He's made three clear stances I know of. Rou appears to want to vote a lot of people for lackluster reasoning.
Quote
- If you're referring to "I missed UK's case switch last game", I'll admit right now that I largely skim or outright ignore walls regardless of my alignment. UK told me to "deal with" her walls, so I pointed out that I had been dealing with it for quite some time.
Yeah, except it lowers your scumhunting ability. Which is anti town. Not a good way to :dealwithit:
(but we're going nowhere with this. I'm tabling it now)
Quote
It's 7:30pm, and I just woke up. Pulling a UK-style catchup post right now. (Speaking of which, where is she?)
You have my AIM. If I'm not on it, I'm not online. Where I am IRL is none of your business unless I choose to disclose it.
...stalker.
Quote
Anthony pulls...an OMGUS! How surprising. And his defense basically reads 'Rou's case against me is poor because it's okay that people had to ask me to scumhunt, and giving nothing but useless information is okay. In comparison he's scummy for attacking me based on these points.' He even admits that this case is all he has.
Well, at least you noticed this as well.
Quote
But Bamboo Forest was one of the best Mafia games of all time
Hated that game. I was playing horribly as scum. And still technically would have won had I not replaced out due to pressure, pissing everyone off.
And...you drop the Anthony case you were so attached to, and even strengthened...for Suwako.
I'm not sure which is worse, Umu saying that Suwako should not be given a free pass and not doing anything about it, or you throwing more shit and seeing if it sticks.
Ok...I like Pesco, want to see something from Suwako and hope page 7 is the unlock for her, Serpy seems alright as well, if a little misguided, Rou flinging more shit, want to hear from Eliphas, probably want more from Kilga but I'm kinda used to this D1, Tenshi needs to post, VgT is fluctuating between improving and worsening, Anthony needs to scumhunt or else I may have to endorse the wagon soon, and people I don't mention haven't piqued my interest really.
Like my vote on Rou, willing to lynch VgT still, Eliphas is a good Dark Horse choice.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 09:20:35 PM
Quote
You do realize that that's a discredited tell, right? Precisely because it's in the wiki actually.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/Roukanken/waitwhat-1.jpg) ...Shit. Was I meant to know that?
Quote
And...you drop the Anthony case you were so attached to, and even strengthened...for Suwako.
I'm not sure which is worse, Umu saying that Suwako should not be given a free pass and not doing anything about it, or you throwing more shit and seeing if it sticks.
If Suwako is suffering from a post restriction, he's definitely not making any effort to get around it. The fact that half of his short posts consist of either flavour or 'I'm not reading' don't help, and the fact that he accuses VgT for making a WoT is the killer. In my opinion, we should have started lynching this guy a while back, but I gave him a chance to start contributing (which he promptly failed to meet).
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kitten4u on September 16, 2009, 09:28:03 PM
Quote from: Umu
MotK Mafia: Dare to go to sleep.
Remind me never to do that again. I'm afraid that if things keep going at this pace I might not be able to keep up.
---
Quote from: Affinity
As for, Kitten4u, I would like to see more elaboration on why you don't agree and why you do agree other than just saying stuff.
I thought I did say why, granted my explanation was only a few sentences because posting walls of text on D1 is annoying. I'll go ahead and elaborate then.
Umu's case on Rou isn't particularly strong, but I think he raises some good points. The "no need to delcare the end of RVS" thing is pretty meh, but everything else looks solid to me. It also doesn't strike me as odd that he would call someone out on that because he seems to do that a lot. Rou's "that's so stupid I'm going to ignore it" comment does strike me as odd (wouldn't declare Rou scum based on it, but it's certainly worth mentioning), and the third on the wagon thing does look tacked on to me. Rou's latter explanations about it have only made me feel worse about that comment as well. He keeps saying that you don't need strong cases to pressure people on D1 (which is true). He found the third on the wagon for no "reason" (no joke reason) weird, but he didn't bother to pressure Anthony about it until Kilga did. That strikes me as very weird too.
So tl;dr: Umu's case is not strong, but he raises some good points that should be looked at.
Which is why I dislike your case. You're calling him out for making weak points on D1, which is a weak case itself. I'll agree that the "no need to declare the end of RVS" could be seen as trying too hard, but that's it in my opinion. However, your case on everything else looks exactly like what you're accusing Umu of doing from my perspective.
---
...Okay, I see the case on VGT now. Post 132 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90039#msg90039) is really bad. I was under the impression that he was going to do something with those questions he asked, but he really hasn't. Agreeing with everyone that says that he needs to vote and that he needs to stop tunneling on Kilga.
Not feeling any better about Anthony. I can't tell if his case on Rou is talking about Rou or himself.
Not feeling any better about Rou. Post 134 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90050#msg90050) strikes me as odd. I thought it was pretty clear that Kilga was talking about VGT. I'm also disliking the use of the "third on the wagon is more likely to be scum" statistic. I'll quote Umu here:
Quote from: Umu
Do you understand why the wiki says that?
I'm seeing too much of "the statistic says so" versus "this is why third on the wagon is more likely to be scum."
I think Kilga should suck it up and read the walls, but I guess I don't find that scummy by itself. Though, I will not accept "I didn't read it" as a defense should it come up.
Suwako and Angel Milk need to actually say something.
I like Nietz case on Pesco for the reasons he said. I'm looking forward to that re-read of VGT and Kilga.
I don't like Umu's case on Nietz. For the moment I still don't consider the people that think that Anthony is newbtown scummy because while I disagree I can understand why they would think that. And since that's basically all Umu seems to have on him I think the case is terrible.
---
And this is getting long and it's taken my way too long to write it. I still want to read Pesco, Kilga and Eliphas, so give me a bit to do that.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 09:30:09 PM
It ain't semantics Rou, it's pragmatics. I'll link you more Linguistics notes.
And you who can't take sarcasm and subtlety tries to do just that....
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 09:37:15 PM
Quote
If Suwako is suffering from a post restriction, he's definitely not making any effort to get around it. The fact that half of his short posts consist of either flavour or 'I'm not reading' don't help, and the fact that he accuses VgT for making a WoT is the killer. In my opinion, we should have started lynching this guy a while back, but I gave him a chance to start contributing (which he promptly failed to meet).
I disagree. I grant there's not MUCH meaning, but there is some if you think about it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 16, 2009, 09:45:29 PM
Quote
I'm seeing too much of "the statistic says so" versus "this is why third on the wagon is more likely to be scum."
Third on the wagon is more likely to be scum because they see a potential wagon and jump on it, right? Anthony claimed to be doing exactly that, word for word.
As for not going for Anthony immediately, I'm willing to concede that I was too busy getting irritated at Pesco for constantly bringing up the crack fic in a not really that funny running gag to think that hard about Anthony. :V
I disagree. I grant there's not MUCH meaning, but there is some if you think about it.
Here's how I interpret his posts: 42 = Vote: Pesco for the sake of forming a bandwagon. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89681#msg89681) Alright for now, but later posts produce nothing more of use: 119 = I'm disregarding all the discussion on Anthony and UK that's been going on for the last 2 pages, and staying on Pesco without giving any more reasoning. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90003#msg90003) 158 = I have a convenient real-life excuse which stops me from posting often. I'm STILL not mentioning Anthony or UK, making one comment on VgT but otherwise staying on Pesco without giving any reasoning at all. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90204#msg90204)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kitten4u on September 16, 2009, 09:48:35 PM
Quote from: Roukanken
Third on the wagon is more likely to be scum because they see a potential wagon and jump on it, right? Anthony claimed to be doing exactly that, word for word.
There is a reason my vote is on him right now. :P I'm not disagreeing with you there. It's just that using "the statistic says so" versus "this is why" looks like you were trying to use AtA, which I don't like.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 10:12:34 PM
Ya know what? Who the fuck started this post restriction fearmongering? Even if his PR is to RP his role, it doesn't stop Suwako from posting sense. I don't believe there's any post restrictions in this game and if someone is going to be vague about how they post, die.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 10:16:49 PM
Ya know what? Who the fuck started this post restriction fearmongering? Even if his PR is to RP his role, it doesn't stop Suwako from posting sense. I don't believe there's any post restrictions in this game and if someone is going to be vague about how they post, die.
Maybe I'm guilty? I know I mentioned it on Zak :S...As I said, I'm HOPING it disappears now. But if not, I may have to push Suwako a bit.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 10:21:43 PM
Zak's use of 'We' was pretty obvious. Affinity has been tacking on a bit of RP too, but that's not getting in the way of his posting at least.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 16, 2009, 10:30:12 PM
Posting from work. Nothing "useful" to the current game, but VGT hasn'tgiven me a reason to pursue anyone else, so.
There's actually logical reasoning behind doing what I do in that regard, and I am planning on going over wall philosophy in postgame, but doing so while the game is going on is a general waste of time and space (not to mention the ulterior motive nature of the game would make you take anything I say with a grain of salt anyway). Postgame is also much more likely to have cooler heads, so.
Just something to look forward to.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 16, 2009, 10:33:36 PM
Ok, time for my views and my (probably gonna suck again) attempts at scumhunting, also to just say, my OMGUS vote was mostly based on the (mostly crap idea) lead I thought I had on Rou, but honestly it was stupid, which it pretty much a wasted Vote, so
##Unvote: Roukanken
Now for actual attempts, but honestly all I'll probably end up doing is restating stuff.
Kilga's lack of content, (talked about before) is to me either A. not properly explaining to get people to go with his opinion, or B. just trying to divert attention from himself,
The whole VgT thing which at first I thought was crap, is starting to make more sense, thought now people are gonna call me out on being a hypocrite for shifting my opinion on this,
I got nothing on UK, u-mu, my case on Rou is basically all a OMGUS as previously stated, so thus crap, Pesco is mostly just giving out material on Semantics and Pragmatics, overall not much to go on about other that possible attention diverter, got nothing on tenshi/angel milk since we got nothing from him, most of the others I'm just not sure, just gonna go over this a bit more,
Yea, overall I got that anything I'm probably posting is just simple reposting, and for lack of a better way of saying it, I'm holding off my vote until I get at least better proof.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 16, 2009, 10:36:32 PM
That's a lot of likely to end in mislynches you attributing. Do you imply that Anthony and VgT are both town?
Quote
EBWOP: VgT is not a newbie IIRC.
Experience showed me that newbie lynchs end up in mislynch way more often than not. And it keeps happening because MotK loves to lynch bad players and that's always useful for scum. Yes, I remember VgT played a couple of games long ago, but he still has a newbish attitude about it him. I'm not crazy by the way he's been playing, but you're still way ahead of him and I don't see you two as scumpartners. Anthony I'm leaning town so far.
I don't understand how you can really argue that any of these didn't happen.
The point is that they are pretty weak. One is wagon-position speculation, two is selective reading from you and third is your opinion on hunting performance.
I feel it being a PR since I think that the "would vote VGT" is actually in response to the case, not the stated reason. But maybe I'm just batshit :P.
Looking back, you seem to be the main proponent of the "Suwako as an PR" thing. Is there any reasons or knowledge you have behind it? Ninja: Pesco seems to have asked the same. But you didn't explain what kind of PR you thought Suwako had that made him (or allowed him) being non-contributive. For one, if what Zak has is a PR, it's pretty non-obtrusive.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 10:41:20 PM
Quote
There's actually logical reasoning behind doing what I do in that regard, and I am planning on going over wall philosophy in postgame, but doing so while the game is going on is a general waste of time and space (not to mention the ulterior motive nature of the game would make you take anything I say with a grain of salt anyway). Postgame is also much more likely to have cooler heads, so.
Fair. I can kinda think of some reasons where you could explain it away, but I also don't think they are good enough, so hopefully you have better.
... at Anthony's latest post...waffles, admitting it doesn't make it right, bending to the will of the populace, and this time I feel less of a pro town feeling behind it.
I can also reconcile Rou scum and Anthony scum given the latest switch to Suwako with a stronger case on Anthony...
Honestly, I think I'm willing to vote Anthony now, pending his next post.
Quote
Looking back, you seem to be the main proponent of the "Suwako as an PR" thing. Is there any reasons or knowledge you have behind it?
First blush. Didn't Edible say it was at least role madness? I said nothing regarding the setup of the game to anyone, as far as I can remember.
I'm not sure if he claimed bastardly though. I'm still working out what precise PR would cause Suwako to act like this. The obvious is "act like Suwako", but there have to be more restrictions to provide what we have.
Maybe I'm too soft?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 16, 2009, 10:42:08 PM
...............................
Lynching Anthony or VgT is fine by me (as in I don't care if it happens while I'm asleep). Tenshi and Suwako need to post CONTENT.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 10:45:13 PM
Then I have no idea where I got the Edible/role madness thing. Chalk it up to misremembrance. But he didn't say it wasn't...I dunno.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 16, 2009, 10:50:54 PM
The question is why did you give him a PR pass instead of calling him on active lurking, which is pretty much what he's been doing? And you mentioned something about it "getting resolved later", what you had in mind?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 16, 2009, 10:59:12 PM
The question is why did you give him a PR pass instead of calling him on active lurking, which is pretty much what he's been doing? And you mentioned something about it "getting resolved later", what you had in mind?
Part the green text and the feel of the posts, and the getting resolved later because I theorize the PR weakens/fades by page 7.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 16, 2009, 11:40:53 PM
Content?
- Unless there was a night zero, which I don't thinkero there was, there's nothing much to go on today. - Scum lurve making townies do stupid stuff and get bogged down in arguments day 1. - Holy frog (that's me!), you people have an awful lot of free time on your hands to be throwing out this many posts. - People with more than 10-15 posts at the very most on day 1 are hurting the town.
Too many people here doing that though. Scum are... maybe one lead, one middle of the pack, one sitting back.
The cases brought forth on Anthony, UK, VGT (for the most part), and whoever the heck else at this point are all totally meaningless, I've yet to see a single argument with actual meritoad and I don't think I'm going to on day 1. Just a lot of people bringing up popular stuff without thinking.
Much like Kanako amirite?
Kilga looks pretty good to me. No one else has even tried to fight the tide. Pesco's hanging back, supporting this nonsense while not participating, that's good enough for me.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 17, 2009, 12:01:26 AM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 17, 2009, 01:06:23 AM
Quote from: Affinity 173
Really? I mean... really? This is a question of semantics. Also, how does ignoring one possible scummy point on Anthony make Rou any scummier (e.g ignoring the defense in favour of the vote)
(...)the case on u-mu seems to be fading away a little with all this new material and his actions.
1) It's not a question of semantics at all; it's a question of intent. I don't understand the second question. I'd like for you to explain this last remark.
Quote from: Nietz 175
Umu doesn't look good. a long waffly post and parks a vote on me out of nothing... accusing me of parking a vote on who I find scummier?
Waffly? I took a very clear stance on you and a number of others. Besides, I only have one vote, and the people who are in the lead for being voted are there for decent reason.
Quote from: Kilga 177
I've flip-flopped on Youmu - his most recent post is a massive step up from his Roukan case.
Yes, but do you endorse the Nietz vote?
@mod: Listing who is Not Voting is awesome. (Who's this Tenshi character, and does said character need a prod?) I assume they are referring to Angel Milk, and no - they do not require a prod.
Quote from: Rou 183
Affinity 173 is a weird one for me. Affinity decides to throw every other case aside to attack Kitten, who really hasn't said much all game. Not sure about this one, not really convinced bythe case quite yet.
I agree with this.
Quote from: UK 189
Umu saying that Suwako should not be given a free pass and not doing anything about it,
Maybe if some mod would give me an unlimited daykill like I've been asking for for over a year I would be able to do something about it, but for right now you and whoever else has to settle for a single vote being placed on whoever I feel is most likely scum.
Quote from: S.Moriya 207
- Unless there was a night zero, which I don't thinkero there was, there's nothing much to go on today. - Scum lurve making townies do stupid stuff and get bogged down in arguments day 1.
1) Um... no. 2) Then FIND THEM. These were noticeably not factors in the previous game, incidentally.
Quote from: K4U 191
I don't like Umu's case on Nietz. For the moment I still don't consider the people that think that Anthony is newbtown scummy because while I disagree I can understand why they would think that. And since that's basically all Umu seems to have on him I think the case is terrible.
Um... no? Look again.
No pressing reason to move my vote tbh.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 01:21:59 AM
The cases brought forth on Anthony, UK, VGT (for the most part), and whoever the heck else at this point are all totally meaningless, I've yet to see a single argument with actual meritoad and I don't think I'm going to on day 1. Just a lot of people bringing up popular stuff without thinking.
Much like Kanako amirite?
Congrats on disregarding every single case being brought up. I don't really see how 'you're all wrong but I'm not saying why' is valid, to be honest.
Too many people here doing that though. Scum are... maybe one lead, one middle of the pack, one sitting back.
3 scum in a 16-player game? :v
Until UK brought it up, I didn't notice the 'seven pages by tomorrow' reference, but I honestly don't see the point in it. Given that Suwako is outright against people swarming the topic with posts, it's sort of contradictory.
Anthony is posting again. Joy. He switches AGAIN after people say his case on me is poor. This is a running thing with him, it seems.
Quote
Kilga's lack of content, (talked about before) is to me either A. not properly explaining to get people to go with his opinion, or B. just trying to divert attention from himself,
Or C. A lack of free time/patience. GJ forgetting that one.
Quote
The whole VgT thing which at first I thought was crap, is starting to make more sense, thought now people are gonna call me out on being a hypocrite for shifting my opinion on this,
And pointing this fact out makes it any less true?
Quote
I got nothing on UK, u-mu, my case on Rou is basically all a OMGUS as previously stated, so thus crap, Pesco is mostly just giving out material on Semantics and Pragmatics, overall not much to go on about other that possible attention diverter, got nothing on tenshi/angel milk since we got nothing from him, most of the others I'm just not sure, just gonna go over this a bit more,
Waffle, waffle, waffle, waffle.
Quote
Yea, overall I got that anything I'm probably posting is just simple reposting, and for lack of a better way of saying it, I'm holding off my vote until I get at least better proof.
Waffle, waffle, waffle.
Quote
The point is that they are pretty weak. One is wagon-position speculation, two is selective reading from you and third is your opinion on hunting performance.
- Well, forgive me for not knowing that the third on wagon tell was discredited. >_> - Show me where he said anything that suggested otherwise. - Likewise, show me something he did that qualifies as good scumhunting. I'm interested in where exactly you find fault with my case. Most people disapprove of my attack on Anthony because he's a newb and therefore these mistakes might be understandable, but from what I can see you seem to think he's making no mistakes at all. Am I wrong?
The only reason I'm not switching back to Anthony is because I feel that someone needs to put Suwako under pressure. This last post of his feels pretty horrible, basically saying 'STOP TALKING SO MUCH'. UK feels bad for clearing him on such a small potential point ahead of him being, y'know, a lurker. Nietz feels very 'ehh' to me, he's been fighting for Anthony's sake a little too hard.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 02:32:36 AM
Quote
Maybe if some mod would give me an unlimited daykill like I've been asking for for over a year I would be able to do something about it, but for right now you and whoever else has to settle for a single vote being placed on whoever I feel is most likely scum.
Please pre-/in for TTGL mafia on MS. I'm toying with something that you might be interested in.
Do NOT like Suwako 207, as it demonstrates an ability to make points while not showing anything for it.
Quote
3 scum in a 16-player game? :v
Missed this. Someone have inside info :P? (Meaning Suwako, not Rou in this case)
Rou needs to keep up. Anthony is creeping up my scumlist fast, practically as a partner to you.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 17, 2009, 02:38:38 AM
Maybe if some mod would give me an unlimited daykill like I've been asking for for over a year I would be able to do something about it, but for right now you and whoever else has to settle for a single vote being placed on whoever I feel is most likely scum.
Please pre-/in for TTGL mafia on MS. I'm toying with something that you might be interested in.
Okay, I pre-/in for TTGL Mafia on MS. (You know I have another reason for doing so...)
'Guess this means I have to learn something about TTGL before then (>")>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kitten4u on September 17, 2009, 02:41:16 AM
Quote from: Umu
Um... no? Look again.
I'll need the condesending explanation then. Is it based off of meta stuff or something? That's what Pesco's post sounded like (at least I'm assuming that's the post you're agreeing with).
---
Anyway, finished reading.
Eliphas seems to be playing like he did last game. I don't like it, but I have no idea what it means at this point since he was town last game. I'd like to hear some thoughts on what's been going on since you haven't posted for awhile.
Pesco's play seems similar to last game too. I see a lot of acusations thrown and a lot of questions being asked, but no real cases being made.
I didn't see anything else notable about Kilga.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 02:42:55 AM
Maybe if some mod would give me an unlimited daykill like I've been asking for for over a year I would be able to do something about it, but for right now you and whoever else has to settle for a single vote being placed on whoever I feel is most likely scum.
Please pre-/in for TTGL mafia on MS. I'm toying with something that you might be interested in.
Okay, I pre-/in for TTGL Mafia on MS. (You know I have another reason for doing so...)
'Guess this means I have to learn something about TTGL before then (>")>
And glutton for bastard games? Or because you know there won't be a sane cop?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 02:45:49 AM
Whatever, it's 4am over here and my sleep pattern is already screwed up enough after that last all-nighter. -_-
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 17, 2009, 02:50:37 AM
Quote from: Nietz 107
1) The Anthony wagon sucks. It started in what looked a lot like a innocent newb mistake, he got proded for it and reacted pretty much like an innocent newb would.
2 Don't like how Rou jumped on him and waved aside his explanations as invalid, using the all-too-common "it's not noobish, it's scummy and anti-town" argument. This might be a case of "too Rou to be scum", but I'm kinda paranoid of people manipulating their meta, so I'm keeping my suspicion on him.
3) pesco, however, seem worse for the time being. He jumps on the Anthony wagon as well with the same kind of throwaway reasoning, then proceeds to FoS (ugh) and press VgT on a mere technicality. It's particularly bad because we've already seen people referring to past games before without giving links, and now you suddenly decide this is scummy.
4) Don't see much of a case on UK's actions at face value. Her prod and unvote seems to be exactly what to expect from a sensible player when coming upon a newbie mistake. Of course, she could be trying to act like a proper player (paranoid, remember?), but I don't see scum intent right now.
##Unvote ##Vote: pesco
Quote from: Me 170
I agree with Pesc(9) that Nietz107.5 looks like Scum Radio. 3) While the point against Pesco isn't terrible (in regards to suspicion due to VgameT not checking his sources), the rest of it is weak "well yes this person did something scummy, but 1) newbcard/2) meta/4) ambiguousconspiracy lets me park my vote elsewhere".
This is pretty blatant; how did you miss it the first AND second time? [/condescension]
Actually, it is rather insulting that Nietz accused me of waffling after that. Nietz: This is scummy BUT it might not be Me: This is scummy BUT I can't vote everyone
-----
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And glutton for bastard games? Or because you know there won't be a sane cop?
I prefer "experimental" games, tyvm~
-----
Rou, go to sleep.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kitten4u on September 17, 2009, 03:07:30 AM
Quote from: Umu
This is pretty blatant; how did you miss it the first AND second time? [/condescension]
Because I fail at life obviously. It's closer to I thought the last three things were refering to the same thing when they weren't, but yeah, I see where you're coming from now. Ty for condescension.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Affinity on September 17, 2009, 04:16:12 AM
@Kitten:
Good enough for me. Thank you. And I disagree with your view that accusing people of making weak cases=weak, since weak cases are often points against that person. That would be like saying that the case against Anthony is weak since he made a weak case against Roukanken and pesco.
---
##Unvote
Quote from: Rou
Affinity 173 is a weird one for me. Affinity decides to throw every other case aside to attack Kitten, who really hasn't said much all game. Not sure about this one, not really convinced bythe case quite yet.
This was more of a prod than a case; just didn't want to see her go under the radar. And I have not thrown aside everything else yet.
Quote from: umu
It's not a question of semantics at all; it's a question of intent.
Sayihng that RVS ended was more of a observation than anything else; Anthony's pesco vote was bad and by the post alone it was clear that RVS ended. Thus I don't see the 'intent'
Quote from: umu
I don't understand the second question
You accused Rou of ignoring Anthony's defense and not finding him scummy for that. How is this bad? Also, with the appearance of VgT, Anthony, Suwako and Nietz, and with your vote on the latter which I find solid, I don't find you worthy of a vote anymore. Furthermore, Rou is starting to crack with his third on bandwagon thing.
Quote from: Suwako
{everyone's cases except mine)at this point are all totally meaningless
Quote from: Suwako
Kilga looks pretty good to me
##Vote: Suwako Moriya
Contradictions galore. Not immediately clear why pesco is not participating with his vote on Nietz. You are hanging back, supporting the nonsense while not participating. Popular stuff = important because bandwagons = popular. Therefore, you are worthy of vote, fellow goddess.
---
In other news, Anthony is bad for suddenly retracting his vote. He uses the word 'crap' more than anyone else I have ever seen too. Also, rather superficial read of VgT and Kilga, but at least he is giving more content than Angel Milk and Suwako.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 17, 2009, 07:21:41 AM
Experience showed me that newbie lynchs end up in mislynch way more often than not. And it keeps happening because MotK loves to lynch bad players and that's always useful for scum. Yes, I remember VgT played a couple of games long ago, but he still has a newbish attitude about it him. I'm not crazy by the way he's been playing, but you're still way ahead of him and I don't see you two as scumpartners. Anthony I'm leaning town so far.
Explain the underlined.
Your appeal to statistics is weak. You ignore that scum or town can be bad players. Why do you say that VgT has a newbish attitude over anything else, like the blatant anti-town attitude that has been pointed out?
Yea, overall I got that anything I'm probably posting is just simple reposting, and for lack of a better way of saying it, I'm holding off my vote until I get at least better proof.
What better proof are you waiting on? You are obvscum in front of me, is that proof enough for you to vote yourself?
Again, fine with lynching Anthony without further ado.
Edible is playing as Suwako. You heard it from me first :D
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 17, 2009, 09:01:36 AM
Vote Count: In Which The Mod Is Playing Himself And No One Else VGameT (4) - Kiro, Kilgamayan, Eliphas, pesco Pesco (2) - Suwako Moriya, Nietz Anthony (2) - Kitten4U, Serpentarius Roukanken (1) - UncertainKitten UncertainKitten (1) - Zakeri Nietz (1)- u? Suwako Moriya (2) - Roukanken, Affinity
Not voting: Anthony, Angel Milk
Around, uh... 32 hours left? Math are hard, I am sleep.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 17, 2009, 11:43:50 AM
Sorry for kind of disappearing, I slept for like 15 hours and then spent an age playing mahjong. I'm not sure if I'm thrilled I don't have to wade through 7 more pages of posts or disappointed the game's slowed down so much.
pesco: Couple things. Why are you voting for me? In the post where you FoSed me you said some stuff to UK and told me where the mafia archive topic was. Then you disappeared for a while, and when you came back you switched your vote from Anthony to me. It looks like you were saying you didn't like how I handled you when you were pressing me about that reference to WCM, but I can't tell because your wording was funky. What did I do that drew your ire, compared to how Rou handed a similar situation? If you have any other reasons you haven't really said them yourself, but your vote's still on me. Meanwhile, you're calling for everyone else's head. Are you just going to jump on whichever bandwagon looks most likely to succeed at the end of the day? You certainly have your bases covered for it.
Suwako: I'm rereading your latest post, and it's pretty weak. What's the difference between night 0 and no night 0? A dead dude who hasn't even had a chance to post, and maybe some investigative results that aren't even going to show up barring some extremely weird circumstances? And at the same time you yell at everyone for posting too much. If we posted less I'm pretty sure there would be less to go on. The proof here would be that I can't get a read on Angel Milk, because, get this, there's nothing to read from Angel Milk. Fantastic! Your vote on pesco goes something like "he is posting a lot but not participating" which seems kind of contradictory to me. Please post some more, and if you can, make sense while you're doing it.
Eliphas: Maybe you missed my prod in that big post. Let me repeat it: 1) Why did you flip from "The case against VgameT about his thing with pesco is dumb" to "VgameT's thing with pesco is scummy", and why did you call me out for being waffly about Anthony and then immediately waffle about Anthony?
Angel Milk: You found out what happens when you don't log in for one day. What happens when you don't post anything game-related for two? (The answer involves punches. From me.)
Kilga: Who do you think is scummy, besides me and Anthony? You're kind of tunneling on the two likely lynch targets. I realize you said before you didn't want to post a bunch on everyone, but I don't really like your "I met my quota for Day 1. cya" attitude. Here I would make a snippy comment about being kidding because you won't see this on your first skim, but you won't see it because you're skimming. TIME PARADOX
For some reason I keep thinking "I need to reread Rou" but this post is long as hell and I need to sleep, so I'll leave it for tomorrow. Right now I'll ##vote: Eliphas for weird votes. His reasoning for voting UK was basically "because Zakeri's post" but then he says "for pretty much ignoring lines of questioning and jumping onto a bandwagon." which is bizarre because Zakeri didn't mention anything like that and UK jumping off the bandwagon was what people didn't like.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Serp on September 17, 2009, 11:49:36 AM
Quote from: Kilgamayan
- If you're referring to "I was 2/3 last game" thing, that was a joke designed to barb back at VGT's hilariously incorrect and inflammatory post. In addition, "excusing yourself in advance" implies I guessed he would do that.
Yeah, this is what I was referring to.
Quote from: UncertainKitten
Uh huh at Serpy. Basically can't argue taste. "gut town/scum reads are crap" is a statement I disagree with. I'll grant your theory might be accurate. But it's not very useful without Anthony's alignment as well as the fact that I could still be insightful town.
No, gut clearing Anthony looks bad whatever his alignment happens to be. If he's scum, then you could be covering for him. If he's town, then you could be trying to earn town cred for opposing a mislynch. I wasn't voting him so I could look at you and Nietz again in light of his flip - I was voting him because I didn't consider gut clearing to be a strong enough tell to be worthy of voting at that point.
Quote from: Nietz
Experience showed me that newbie lynchs end up in mislynch way more often than not. And it keeps happening because MotK loves to lynch bad players and that's always useful for scum.
That's because all lynches end up in mislynch more often than not. >_> It's simple statistics. More people flip town than scum because if there were more scum than town, the game would be over before it started. You can't just refuse to lynch newbies.
That said:
##Unvote ##Vote: Suwako Moriya
This doesn't look like a post restriction to me. It looks like scum appealing to our weirdness censors in order to avoid having to say anything incriminating D1. It's basically an implicit WIFOM appealing to our conventional expectations of what scum will and won't do, and it's incredibly anti-town. I'm willing to give Kilga the benefit of the doubt in that making concise, minimalistic judgements while avoiding textwall spam could be a valid scumhunting philosophy, but Suwako's play goes way beyond that. It's no wonder people worship Kanako nowadays.
In other news, Anthony still looks scummy in his own right, and Milk's inactivity would be voteworthy by itself if there weren't so much else going on.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 17, 2009, 12:08:15 PM
Umm ... We see five new pages have popped up in our absence, so we each read one page. However, we found ourselves lost and confused, and thus decided to read the pages one by one together. After that, we realized that our reason for being lost was not because he couldn't connect the information together the first way. :V
We apologize for earlier confusion in regards to the term "We." When including other entities, we usually refer to them separately from us
Quote
Not exactly a joke vote, more a no vote without directly saying so.
Which is, essentially worse than a jokevote. We understand your meta is to jokevote the mod, but in the end, it does nothing to further discussion. Revoting the mod after dismissing a case and doing nothing else means you are avoiding making connection to other people with your vote.
Quote
What is there to provide at the moment? I can't exactly make a case on myself
Naturally, we would expect a case on someone else from you. Possibly even ourselves, if you felt it wise.
Quote
I fully expect VGT 86 to get voted for much the same reasons I've just been voted for :P.
We admit, We were tempted.
We are happy with the outcome of the quoted posts. We may change our vote if we feel necessary later this post.
Quote from: Rou109
Again, why do newbs get free passes? Zengar was scum last game and he was a newb, so it's not like being new makes you Town by default.
If we remember, KGH also had his first game last game. He was also being targeted by everyone, and was stacked up to be the perfect day one mislynch. Yet, somehow, people began edging out towards Zengar being more likely to be scum than KGH who as a result was spared until day 4.
It might be wise for you to go back and find the differences between KGH's day one and Zengar's day one, rather than assuming only Zengar's applies to this situation.
We also notice you use the term "More newbscum than newbtown" as we believe was warned against above. We apologize, this was mentioned later. We still feel the discussed paragraphs feel like you are trying to stack questionable evidence against Anthony.
119 - We do not understand your laid back attitude in this game. We cannot find rationalization for this, in either town nor scum intent.
We agree with the case on VgT as Rou, Kiro, and Seniwac all state it. We do not however agree with it as how Kilgamayan states it. We suspect this is because Kilgamayan is being mean.
We also agree with Pesco on VgT's case.
Quote from: rou157
I thought that was how the meta call went on the MS wiki - third on the wagon is most likely to be scum.
...
This is not a Meta Call. This is an In-joke. This isn't a legitimate scumtell. This is something you shout out during hammer/Twilight of the first day.
158 - Once again, Suwako truly proves our theory on which of the Moriya Shrine Goddesses is Superior.
164 - @ Anthony: Rou's case on you amounts to making two mistakes that can be seen as scummy. Whether his case is valid or not depends on if you continue making similar mistakes. This is how we see it, anyway.
Quote
now people are gonna call me out on being a hypocrite for shifting my opinion on this,
Stop being so negative. It makes us want to call you out for appeal to emotion. :V
We're certain somebody already says this in a post further below this one, but it bears mentioning that you should at least write down everything you think even if someone else already wrote it down. Obviously, you shouldn't plagiarize, but if you type out everything you think, it demonstrates that you're trying to play the game. Giving up and assuming everyone's going to vote for you every time you say something leads back to that newbie-scum mentality of "Everyone I want to lynch I know is town, therefore I know I will always be voting for the wrong person..."
This is the third time we've had to explain to you why your posting style is scummy. Our patience with you wears thin.
Quote
I'm not sure if he claimed bastardly though. I'm still working out what precise PR would cause Suwako to act like this. The obvious is "act like Suwako", but there have to be more restrictions to provide what we have.
Our current theory on this leads back to MotK Mafia, in which one scum had a PR of posting only once per RL day. We feel that if Suwako is suffering under this post restriction, there are several tips that his scumpartners need to give him regarding how he should play this posting restriction. Alternatively, if none of them know, he should ask in thread and We will provide him these tips.
Quote
- People with more than 10-15 posts at the very most on day 1 are hurting the town.
On that note, We would like to know why we should ignore everything that's been said, and why no one will have any need to go over day one when the town has more information to find connections between. Also, why would it be better for the town to wait until a nightkill that we or they cannot find reasoning behind unless we interacted with the mafia in the decision? You seem to be ignoring the point of why lynching give the town information.
VgT is scum for reasons that are unoriginal coming from us. Anthony is scum for us having to explain at least three times why everything he's posted so far is scummy. UncertainKitten is undecidedly not scummy, but decidedly less scummy than anyone else we're listing here. Suwako is scum for trying to convince everyone that Black is white and that flying under the radar is a towntell, so everyone should be doing it. Angel Milk has not earned the right to live until day two.
##Unvote, ##Vote: Suwako Moriya
Quote
Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
This is starting to get sidetracked. You brought up an observation from an old game, I want to know why you thought it was relevant here and now.
I thought it was funny. obviously the joke missed the mark because nobody remembers what I'm talking about. I wasn't actually trying to make a point about anyone's alignment or whatever. what a careless blunder I've made.
Getting to this took longer than I would have liked because you didn't give a serious response the first time you were asked a serious question.
Getting to this took longer than I would have liked because you didn't give a serious response the first time you were asked a serious question.
In my first response (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89789#msg89789) I said you mistook it for a serious opinion instead of a joke. Specifically I explained to Rou that I was just pointing out something I thought was funny, and then I said to you "next time I'll remember not to make vague references to old games because people will think I'm making an actual point instead of a joke." In other words, "I am not making an actual point, I am instead making a joke." I just thought it was weird how your initial hate seemed to be entirely from a misunderstanding.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 17, 2009, 02:20:23 PM
Actually, it is rather insulting that Nietz accused me of waffling after that. Nietz: This is scummy BUT it might not be Me: This is scummy BUT I can't vote everyone
I made very clear that of the cases I listed pesco's was the most clearly scummy, while I had doubts about the others. You just made a lot of comments on a lot of people and at the end seemingly randomly chose one to park your vote in.
Experience showed me that newbie lynchs end up in mislynch way more often than not. And it keeps happening because MotK loves to lynch bad players and that's always useful for scum.
That's because all lynches end up in mislynch more often than not. >_> It's simple statistics. More people flip town than scum because if there were more scum than town, the game would be over before it started. You can't just refuse to lynch newbies.
Yes, that's a fair point on the statistics. My main gripe still is that, exactly because new players are not very good, it's easy for scum to set for a mislynch and get away with it. I think that instead of taking a chance that a newbie is actually scum, it's more worthy trying to go after players who seem to be taking advantage of that.
pesco is still the best case out there, but if that's not going to happen Suwako seem a good second choice. Though on account of active lurking and uselessness I'd still prefer lynching Tenshi Milk over him.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 17, 2009, 02:20:58 PM
I think it's pretty self-explanatory, I don't see you trying to set up a VgT lynch if you were partners, and if I had to chose one to be scum it would be you.
Quote
Your appeal to statistics is weak. You ignore that scum or town can be bad players.
Ironic, because that's what I've been saying all along. Why do you say that VgT has a newbish attitude over anything else, like the blatant anti-town attitude that has been pointed out? Because they are pretty much the same, except calling it anti-town makes it easier to get a lynch of.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 02:22:09 PM
A lot of people deserve to die. Almost time to consolidate the lynches.
This here is truth.
Current order of lynch preferrence: 1. Suwako for his 'HEY I CAN POST BUT I'LL JUST SAY NOTHING' 2. Anthony for EVERYTHING 3. UK for 'I think Suwako has a post restriction so I'm fine with him, and I'm gut-clearing Anthony' 4. Pesco for spending so long nagging people on minor points 5. Nietz for his strange case on Umu, and his fervent defense on Anthony. 6. VgT for taking so long to start saying something useful, though I'm wondering if that might've been brought along by Pesco's nagging.
...That's a lotta lynches. :V
Quote
It might be wise for you to go back and find the differences between KGH's day one and Zengar's day one, rather than assuming only Zengar's applies to this situation.
I recall that KGH made an effort to produce, asking questions if in a somewhat misguided manner. Zengar attacked Serp for no good reason, after jumping on the KGH wagon as soon as possible.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 17, 2009, 03:16:14 PM
Kilga: Who do you think is scummy, besides me and Anthony? You're kind of tunneling on the two likely lynch targets. I realize you said before you didn't want to post a bunch on everyone, but I don't really like your "I met my quota for Day 1. cya" attitude. Here I would make a snippy comment about being kidding because you won't see this on your first skim, but you won't see it because you're skimming. TIME PARADOX
No one else stands out to me. I think the Suwako bandwagon is stupid for reasons that should be obvious and, if you really want them that badly, I want you to guess at them first before I tell you.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 05:10:56 PM
Quote
No, gut clearing Anthony looks bad whatever his alignment happens to be. If he's scum, then you could be covering for him. If he's town, then you could be trying to earn town cred for opposing a mislynch. I wasn't voting him so I could look at you and Nietz again in light of his flip - I was voting him because I didn't consider gut clearing to be a strong enough tell to be worthy of voting at that point.
Wasn't what I said, Serpy. I think at this point I was granting that people had reasonably good reasons for voting Anthony, but I still was clinging to that town read (either that or I had already dropped it, because I certainly have at this point)
Quote
Which is, essentially worse than a jokevote. We understand your meta is to jokevote the mod, but in the end, it does nothing to further discussion. Revoting the mod after dismissing a case and doing nothing else means you are avoiding making connection to other people with your vote.
Then I'll stand by my "nothing else to do at that point in time"
Quote
Naturally, we would expect a case on someone else from you. Possibly even ourselves, if you felt it wise.
Actually reasonably sure you are town right now, but at any rate, see previous counter.
Quote
We are happy with the outcome of the quoted posts. We may change our vote if we feel necessary later this post.
As expected of King Stones.
Quote
A lot of people deserve to die. Almost time to consolidate the lynches.
I'm not gonna get a Rou lynch, am I?
I must admit I haven't seen anything useful from VgT, but I think I've seen less useful from Suwako...
I think this calls for a D1 reread. At least I know I'll only have 4 posts to read from Suwako...
Quote
3. UK for 'I think Suwako has a post restriction so I'm fine with him, and I'm gut-clearing Anthony'
Purely because I speculated obvious (to me) conclusions? I mean hell, I even EXPLAINED the PR thing was due to a misremembering of Edible's statements regarding this game.
In fact, you've effectively got better cases on everyone else in that list (excepting Pesco), and I'm still third? I don't like this. I feel a mislynch line occuring here.
Quote
No one else stands out to me. I think the Suwako bandwagon is stupid for reasons that should be obvious and, if you really want them that badly, I want you to guess at them first before I tell you.
Watch out, if you think he has a PR you'll be third on Rou's list!
Now, for that reread of Suwako/VgT.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 05:23:22 PM
Suwako (for ease of easiness)
42 Random vote...
119 was the thing that first led me to believe PR (it's the green I tell you). It's actual sentiment isn't very good, but I'm going to try something here. I'm doing a wordcount of each one of her posts...I suspect we'll find something in common. (52 words)
158 also bad as we said if we take it at face value. I also didn't notice the fact that she was still on Pesco, when VgT was probably a better case. My word count thing isn't getting anywhere either. All I've noticed is that Suwako is only posting every other page... (118 words)
207, of course, breaks this for me. It's also got that stuff about ignore D1 and the like, and clearing Kilga since he hates walls as well. Oh, and the three scum theory. Not sure what I think but since it seems Suwako can communicate, even if PR'd I can't say I disagree with her lynch...(189 words)
Ok, fine, I'm leaning towards voting Suwako. I can't justify a PR with her. I also should realize that PRs aren't always town but I got caught in the meta trap of PRs being powerful townies...sorry.
I will reread VgT before voting though.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 05:42:31 PM
Watch out, if you think he has a PR you'll be third on Rou's list!
Quote from: Rou
3. UK for 'I think Suwako has a post restriction so I'm fine with him, and I'm gut-clearing Anthony'
GJ on that misrep there.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 05:47:51 PM
VgT 53 was the whole "didn't this happen before" statement. Seemed serious to me, but not scummy if he was wrong :S
VgT 63 is contradiction riddled. It's like "It was a joke, oh wait, not it's not, but I'll find the game anyway...etc." I can see why Pesco jumped on this.
every post up to and including 86 reeks of IIoA. Got any suspects VgT?
94 has Eggo envious. It's like you are poking everyone without making a decision. And even poking in ways that contradict each other.
123 feels like more IIoA without suspecting anyone. Having trouble finding targets?
Oh, 125 prods Suwako...the only person he's said anything close to a suspicion on. And he doesn't vote her...
132, strawman, etc.
146: So it was a joke? Then how would you find the game? I also get the impression you are just trying to salvage a case on Kilga if at all possible.
Quote
It's true that I haven't seriously voted for anyone, but that's how I play. I don't press people with votes, I press with questions, and leave the votes for people I would actually like to see lynched. I like to see how people respond, whereas you guys like to see a more direct, "this is what I think about X" approach. I'll try to reconcile the two.
So THAT'S why you haven't voted...you should realize this DOESN'T WORK! People don't have any reason to listen to you if you don't vote them!
Yeah, this post sucks.
(And honestly, looking at that long post I could see how Suwako found it scummy :P)
posts until 163 are rather meaningless, just playing with Kilga.
163, however, appears to be a lot of words and no real stances besides the Kilga/Suwako raaaaeeeeeeg
221's Eliphas vote feels contrived. Further, it's about time you commented on players besides Kilga/Suwako. And it doesn't seem to say much. A couple lurker pushes, and the Eliphas from nowhere...
Ok...Suwako is kinda bad for what he did, but VgT is more actively bad. Also, I think we might be able to deduce more things from his flip than Suwako's. I can already think of a couple connections I'm making if he's scum. If he IS somehow town, I also think we can establish a couple things, but not as much. We can't do either with Suwako, so...
Watch out, if you think he has a PR you'll be third on Rou's list!
Quote from: Rou
3. UK for 'I think Suwako has a post restriction so I'm fine with him, and I'm gut-clearing Anthony'
GJ on that misrep there.
For the love of...do I have to add "Real talk" to my posts as well, to quote VgT? It was a joke, satiring your rather weak reasons for me being on your list compared to the others. I know damn well gut clearing anthony was in there. I'd also like to ask why is this SO much more horrible than VgT's useless for MOST OF D1! and Nietz strange cases (considering he also has clearing Anthony)? Also, I uncleared Anthony, but I'm sure you know that, so I'm assuming it's just the initial gut clear you dislike.
There are reasons I really wish you were the lynch today, and lists like that only make up drops of them.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 06:14:39 PM
For the love of...do I have to add "Real talk" to my posts as well, to quote VgT? It was a joke, satiring your rather weak reasons for me being on your list compared to the others. I know damn well gut clearing anthony was in there.
You certainly made it sound relatively serious. I'll just point out the paradox about you getting mad at me for pointing out a joke here, and you attacking VgT for making a joke. >_>
Quote
I'd also like to ask why is this SO much more horrible than VgT's useless for MOST OF D1! and Nietz strange cases (considering he also has clearing Anthony)?
At least he gave reasoning for it, you just did it based on gut and tone. VgT was rambling for a while, yeah, but I'm wondering if he was just getting bogged down by Pesco...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 06:17:00 PM
Quote
You certainly made it sound relatively serious. I'll just point out the paradox about you getting mad at me for pointing out a joke here, and you attacking VgT for making a joke. >_>
GJ on the misrep.
It wasn't the fact that VgT was making a joke, it was the fact that he flipped back and forth on "it was a joke, no it was serious'd"
Quote
At least he gave reasoning for it, you just did it based on gut and tone. VgT was rambling for a while, yeah, but I'm wondering if he was just getting bogged down by Pesco...
Why don't you reread him. And tell me just how many posts seem like actual scumhunting.
Hell, reread everyone and do that. Or at least reread everyone on your list.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 17, 2009, 06:38:57 PM
Glawd Rou. You're going to cause me to put an exception in my gameplay policies.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 06:50:34 PM
Glawd Rou. You're going to cause me to put an exception in my gameplay policies.
What the hell does this mean?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kiro on September 17, 2009, 06:58:42 PM
I'm not sure where Suwako deserves hate specifically when Tenshi and to an extent VgT has done worse. Suwako is almost a little too blunt with his remarks, so I can't see it being a good thing for Scum to do in the long run. He voted in the beginning, his posts have no currently discernible pattern to them so this hype up about a PR looks meh. He'll end up being checked sooner rather than later. The thing is that he has an actual opinion for his vote on Pesco: that Pesco is just sitting back and letting things run its course.
All of this is before VgT finally put a vote down on Eliphas in #221. It's a little odd how he accuses Pesco of maybe "jumping on whichever bandwagon that looks most likely to succeed" then says Suwako's vote on Pesco for "posting a lot but not participating" seems contradictory to him. How is Suwako's point on Pesco bad if you kind of agree with it above? Along with comments about Kilga and Angel Milk, how did Eliphas earn your vote above all of them? My interpretation on your Eliphas case is that you made comments that made you look worse in between the two periods you mentioned which is why Eliphas moved to you. As for the thing about Zakeri and UK at the bottom, it is a little weird so I'd like to see Eliphas' answer to that, but you're still not convincing us why these points make him the most likely to be scum in your analysis.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 17, 2009, 07:49:08 PM
UK: Wowza! That's enough strawmen to keep Affinity's crops safe for the next hundred years. I'm not going to line-by-line respond because that would be insane, but my general response would be: You're summarizing everything I've done as only poking at Kilga and Suwako, which isn't true. If you think my vote for Eliphas is out of nowhere you probably missed the part where I called him out for contradicting himself twice in the same post. I can say you probably did this because you summarized a post where I poked at 5 different people (including Eliphas), none of which were Kilga, as "suwako/kilga raaaaaaeg." Also you seem very confused about that reference I made in the earlygame; I was referencing a thing that actually happened because it was similar to a thing that was currently happening, and I thought it was funny. I sure have had to say this a lot!
Kiro: My point on pesco was that he's called so many people scummy he can basically vote for whoever is most likely to get lynched. Suwako's point was, I think, that pesco has posted a whole lot but hasn't contributed content. I would argue the opposite, that pesco has posted so much content that he gets a free pass for his actions. Suwako's vote is weird, because he voted for pesco as a joke, kept it on him because "no real reason, no real reason to move," keeps it on him more because "not particularily enthused," and then "pesco has supported posting a lot without contributing, good enough for me." It's weird how the joke vote just kind of sat there until it matured into a real vote with a flimsy reason. The fact that Suwako's total contribution has basically been "don't post so much" is pretty weak too. I voted for Eliphas because both of his real votes are fishy. When he voted for me he contradicted himself, and when he voted for UK he contradicted reality. Votes with weak or fallacious reasoning are scummy. I'm not happy with Suwako, either; I'd like all both to respond, but Eliphas' major activity for the day has been two weird votes and repeatedly prodding Anthony, the result of which was "Anthony can go either way." I'd rather not let him just slip under the radar for the rest of the day.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 08:17:38 PM
Quote
You're summarizing everything I've done as only poking at Kilga and Suwako, which isn't true. If you think my vote for Eliphas is out of nowhere you probably missed the part where I called him out for contradicting himself twice in the same post. I can say you probably did this because you summarized a post where I poked at 5 different people (including Eliphas), none of which were Kilga, as "suwako/kilga raaaaaaeg."
Oh, yes, your ONLY post that doesn't JUST poke Suwako and Kilga. You randomly brought up Eliphas from NOWHERE, honestly. I mean, yes, you gave a one line justification in that post, but seriously? Above Kilga and Suwako in your eyes?
Quote
Also you seem very confused about that reference I made in the earlygame; I was referencing a thing that actually happened because it was similar to a thing that was currently happening, and I thought it was funny. I sure have had to say this a lot!
So, it wasn't a joke?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 08:57:05 PM
Quote
Oh, yes, your ONLY post that doesn't JUST poke Suwako and Kilga.
Nice backstep.
Suwako still isn't saying anything useful, and Anthony's fallen off the face of the earth. Really fine with lynching either of them right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 09:01:47 PM
EBWOP: The reason I think we should put Suwako ahead of people like Angel/Tenshi at the moment is because he's basically doing the one thing worse than not contribute, and that's not contribute while writing off almost every other case as terrible with no reasoning. It goes beyond having no effect on discussion and brings his contribution into negatives.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 09:03:31 PM
Oh, yes, your ONLY post that doesn't JUST poke Suwako and Kilga.
Nice backstep.
Suwako still isn't saying anything useful, and Anthony's fallen off the face of the earth. Really fine with lynching either of them right now.
Oh?
Quote
221's Eliphas vote feels contrived. Further, it's about time you commented on players besides Kilga/Suwako. And it doesn't seem to say much. A couple lurker pushes, and the Eliphas from nowhere...
Seems to corrobate QUITE well with what I've said thus far.
Nice failure
Quote
EBWOP: The reason I think we should put Suwako ahead of people like Angel/Tenshi at the moment is because he's basically doing the one thing worse than not contribute, and that's not contribute while writing off almost every other case as terrible with no reasoning. It goes beyond having no effect on discussion and brings his contribution into negatives.
And VgT's isn't?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 09:06:04 PM
221's Eliphas vote feels contrived. Further, it's about time you commented on players besides Kilga/Suwako. And it doesn't seem to say much. A couple lurker pushes, and the Eliphas from nowhere...
Seems to corrobate QUITE well with what I've said thus far.
Nice failure
You go from saying 'this post is nothing but Kilga/Suwako rage' to 'this is the only post that isn't Kilga/Suwako rage'. That looks like a backstep to me.
Quote
And VgT's isn't?
He gives reasoning for why he doesn't like lynches. He talks, he discusses. Suwako just says 'you're all wrong' and doesn't explain why.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 09:08:56 PM
Quote
You go from saying 'this post is nothing but Kilga/Suwako rage' to 'this is the only post that isn't Kilga/Suwako rage'. That looks like a backstep to me.
Then obviously you need to have your vision checked or your comprehension tested. Quite obviously, I said that Eliphas, a couple lurkers, and Kilga/Suwako were mentioned. I merely stated that the points on all non Kilga/Suwako people were practically null and tacked on.
Quote
He gives reasoning for why he doesn't like lynches. He talks, he discusses. Suwako just says 'you're all wrong' and doesn't explain why.
But how much reasoning has he really given?
Did you do that reread?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 17, 2009, 09:12:23 PM
STOP CUTTING ANTHONY! HE'S TRYING TO POST.
Actually not since I don't see him reading the board.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 17, 2009, 09:19:05 PM
Nevermind. My observation method is flawed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 09:35:47 PM
Then obviously you need to have your vision checked or your comprehension tested. Quite obviously, I said that Eliphas, a couple lurkers, and Kilga/Suwako were mentioned. I merely stated that the points on all non Kilga/Suwako people were practically null and tacked on.
Which is worse than having brought up opinions on all of two people in all of your posts for the entire game?
Quote
But how much reasoning has he really given?
Did you do that reread?
From what I've read he's said plenty. You're the one accusing him, so the burden of proof lies with you.
Okay right now I think pretty much everyone needs to calm the hell down, myself included, for two reasons: - It's going to obviously cut on productivity if we all get stuck under the red mist. - This game is supposed to be fun.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 17, 2009, 09:36:58 PM
Vote Count: Now With Extra Sugar VGameT (5) - Kiro, Kilgamayan, Eliphas, pesco, UncertainKitten Pesco (2) - Suwako Moriya, Nietz Anthony (1) - Kitten4U Nietz (1)- u? Suwako Moriya (4) - Roukanken, Affinity, Serpentarius, Zakeri Eliphas (1) - VGameT
Not voting: Anthony, Angel Milk
Approximately 20 hours left, give or take an hour or so.
Angel Milk has been prodded.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 09:50:22 PM
Quote
Which is worse than having brought up opinions on all of two people in all of your posts for the entire game?
Oh? I didn't know that Rou, Anthony, Suwako, Pesco, Kilga, VgT and Eliphas were two people...
You really DO need to do that reread.
Quote
From what I've read he's said plenty. You're the one accusing him, so the burden of proof lies with you.
Actually, you assert that VgT is less scummy than me, Pesco, Suwako, Anthony, and Nietz. I think the burden of proof falls on you.
Quote
Okay right now I think pretty much everyone needs to calm the hell down, myself included, for two reasons:
You think I'm raeging? I'm irritated, but not raeging. Cutting sarcasm is rather rude though ^-^
Quote
- It's going to obviously cut on productivity if we all get stuck under the red mist. - This game is supposed to be fun.
-DARK METAMORPHOSIS! -I'm having fun ^-^.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 09:56:46 PM
Oh? I didn't know that Rou, Anthony, Suwako, Pesco, Kilga, VgT and Eliphas were two people...
You really DO need to do that reread.
I was referring to Suwako, who's made references to Kilga and Pesco and that's it.
Quote
Actually, you assert that VgT is less scummy than me, Pesco, Suwako, Anthony, and Nietz. I think the burden of proof falls on you.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 09:59:56 PM
Quote
I was referring to Suwako, who's made references to Kilga and Pesco and that's it.
My misunderstanding ^-^
Quote
Innocent until proven guilty.
Which is unusable in this instance. No one is "proven" guilty until their flip. Further, you don't see VgT as innocent, just more innocent than others. You made an assertation of scumminess in him, and you haven't backed up why his relative scumminess is more or less than others.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 17, 2009, 10:00:33 PM
Ok now for my views on this since I didn't post inbetween my waking up and my going to school.
Suwako case has back up due to the not contributing and the statement made by Rou about his waving off of everyone else is clear except pesco, which personally sounds like a gut call.
The Vgt case is first from a joke taken seriously, which led to his actions of anti-town, which I see now, this doesn't help too much for me since I sorta like having a bit more before I accuse someone, so overall I'm just leaning towards Vgt
so for now, insted of letting my vote collect dust being unused, I'm actually gonna vote
##Vote:Suwako Moriya
Mostly because of gut call on Pesco, and lack of good content, which annoied me, and also Rou's words
Okay right now I think pretty much everyone needs to calm the hell down, myself included, for two reasons: - It's going to obviously cut on productivity if we all get stuck under the red mist. - This game is supposed to be fun.
I'm pretty much thinking this right now, now excuse me while I get some advil to kill my headache from other stuff.
Oh wait, 3 more posts, nothing to add on, also mostly just showing my view, if it's crap, it's crap, mostly just putting my vote out.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 17, 2009, 10:07:56 PM
EBWOP: The reason I think we should put Suwako ahead of people like Angel/Tenshi at the moment is because he's basically doing the one thing worse than not contribute, and that's not contribute while writing off almost every other case as terrible with no reasoning. It goes beyond having no effect on discussion and brings his contribution into negatives.
Suwako has shown up only to make vague and unlikable statements. Even though this is bad, at least it's very clear - supposedly to him as well - that he's gonna be questioned for that later. Tenshi is just being nonexistent, and in a game with 16 people that meant he got to be conveniently forgotten for most of the day, while Suwako gets flak for his attitude.
Ninja: Yeah.... I'm liking Anthony less and less every time.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 10:28:23 PM
Which is unusable in this instance. No one is "proven" guilty until their flip. Further, you don't see VgT as innocent, just more innocent than others. You made an assertation of scumminess in him, and you haven't backed up why his relative scumminess is more or less than others.
- If we can't have opinions on people until they die, why bother discussing things at all? We should just lynch at random by that logic. - I'm calling you out on this particular reason to call VgT scummy. In later posts he's putting out some decent content, more than can be said for Suwako.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 10:31:43 PM
EBWOP: Tenshi's behaviour is almost too weird to be scummy. Hanging back is one thing, saying absolutely nothing is another.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 10:38:55 PM
Quote
- If we can't have opinions on people until they die, why bother discussing things at all? We should just lynch at random by that logic.
Well played strawman. You are the one that posits people are innocent until proven guilty. You combine your view with mine to get this rich pile of misrepresentation. What I said was showing you precisely the conclusion you came to if we accepted your "innocent until proven guilty" spiel.
Quote
- I'm calling you out on this particular reason to call VgT scummy. In later posts he's putting out some decent content, more than can be said for Suwako.
Decent content? Hardly. It's tunneling for the most part, and in the one post he goes outside his tunnel it's not even for good reasons. Can you show me this "decent content" you speak of? I've already shown how it's not decent to me.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 17, 2009, 10:39:29 PM
- I'm calling you out on this particular reason to call VgT scummy. In later posts he's putting out some decent content, more than can be said for Suwako.
Why aren't you voting for Tenshi instead then if content is the criterion?
Looking at Nietz' point that I'm flinging whatever sticks, so tell me then. How many of the points I've brought up against my targets are valid and how many are invalid? List them ALL for us.
VgT should offer the same sort of analysis on my posts if he's going to call me covering my bases. The thing with VgT's presentation of this point is that he's not saying I'm flinging random shit, that I'll be justified however I vote. So analyse my posts and tell us what you're finding agreeable.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 17, 2009, 11:26:31 PM
Oh, fuck it. Apparently I can't argue for shit right now. All this thing with UK is doing is leaving us both picking at each other everywhere we can, and we're honestly not producing anything useful from it. It doesn't help that to pay attention to all the shit that's going on I'd need an extra three sets of eyes, and every little mistake I make is jumped on by a dozen people.
Who the hell decided it was okay to run a 16-player game? Seriously? :3 I'm seriously starting to wish that someone would listen to Umu's suggestion and turn me into a supervig so I could just shoot everyone and get this game over with. >_>
I've had all I can stand of this game for now. Call me when D2 starts.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 11:31:00 PM
Quote
Who the hell decided it was okay to run a 16-player game? Seriously? I'm seriously starting to wish that someone would listen to Umu's suggestion and turn me into a supervig so I could just shoot everyone and get this game over with. >_>
16 players is a large game, but it's still reasonable. I just prefer not to play them. But it's fine.
I don't like Rou giving up. But whether it's townie raegquit or scum trying to squirm out, I cannot ascertain. I am of the opinion that Rou is probably scum, but as I said I won't get that flip today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 17, 2009, 11:31:20 PM
Still nothing, or almost nothing, worth commenting on. Reasoning? It's day 1, that's enough reason to dismiss all "cases" made so far. No flips, no information, no reasoning can be done, it's all just WIFOM and going back and forth. Anyone here thinks anything that's come out today is actually worth pursuing... I gotta laugh at that unless there's some hoop I'm missin. No content? You kiddin me? I'm one of the only people who's actually posted content. Looks like somewhere along the line words got equated with content, and that's no froggin good. Seeing other fallacies in discussion as well like "contradictions are scummy" and "let's lynch the worst lurker day 1!" There are things that can be done with day 1, but this one's already beyond salvation. I could go with the flow and post a lot of crap but I'd rather look for actual scum. Painful though that may be. We'll simply have to bring out the springwater and weather the rain! Pesco remains the worst to me, mostly because of his attitude. Gut-ish but it's not like there's anything better to find in this mess right now. Also okay with VGT, Anthony or Kitten being lynched out of pragmatism.[/]
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 17, 2009, 11:32:51 PM
Suwako, please state which Kitten you mean. Kitten4U is playing, so UK might be a better turn of phrase if you mean myself.
Suwako somehow manages to anger me with that last post...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 17, 2009, 11:43:46 PM
Question @Suwako - How DO you plan on finding scum (if ever)?
Just skimming through everything, the only thing I see worth commenting on is that Rou placing UK third on his list o' suspicion seems naff. The post restriction accusation, while accurate, seems weak tbh; and I'm not sure what's intrinsically wrong with gut-clearing two people whose alignments are questionable.
That means that, again, I have no motivation to change my vote.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 17, 2009, 11:44:14 PM
EBWOP: (if ever) doesn't make grammatical sense. But you get the idea.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 18, 2009, 01:14:23 AM
Still nothing, or almost nothing, worth commenting on. Reasoning? It's day 1, that's enough reason to dismiss all "cases" made so far. No flips, no information, no reasoning can be done, it's all just WIFOM and going back and forth. Anyone here thinks anything that's come out today is actually worth pursuing... I gotta laugh at that unless there's some hoop I'm missin.
Yes, This is absolutely right. Because absolutely no amount of discussion and practical theory placing can net people a day one scum lynch (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1918.msg76151#msg76151) Especially not when there's some hopeless newbie town (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=202) to lynch in his place. In fact, everyone should just say absolutely nothing and wait until day three (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1918.msg82278#msg82278) because it's absolutely impossible to lynch scum unless half of the town is dead. It's also pointless to get people to discuss their opinion of other people during day one, because we will never be able to Use those opinions to find potential connections between scum (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1918.msg78161#msg78161). This is why the suggested technique of shutting up and blindly lynching randomly is our only defense against the people who could easily get away with manipulating the voting trends from behind the scenes with the blessing upon them of not having to find reasons for why they think "Vanilla Townie X" is worth lynching. ##Ban from ever playing again Suwako Moriya
A calmer post is to be excepted from us soon.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 18, 2009, 01:40:03 AM
Eliphas: Maybe you missed my prod in that big post. Let me repeat it: 1) Why did you flip from "The case against VgameT about his thing with pesco is dumb" to "VgameT's thing with pesco is scummy", and why did you call me out for being waffly about Anthony and then immediately waffle about Anthony?
For some reason I keep thinking "I need to reread Rou" but this post is long as hell and I need to sleep, so I'll leave it for tomorrow. Right now I'll ##vote: Eliphas for weird votes. His reasoning for voting UK was basically "because Zakeri's post" but then he says "for pretty much ignoring lines of questioning and jumping onto a bandwagon." which is bizarre because Zakeri didn't mention anything like that and UK jumping off the bandwagon was what people didn't like.
Nice misrep. Where the hell did you get the "contradictions?" I never thought you were scummy for getting into a fight with Pesco. The message of the post was that you're scummy for doing absolutely nothing at all. Contradiction on UK is silly because I didn't solely vote UK because of Zakeri's post. Again, nice misrep. I didn't like UK for jumping on the wagon for a stupid reason and basically ignoring what everyone else had to say about Anton.
Now back to Anton. Yes I did call you scummy for waffling on Anton, but that also applied to EVERYONE ELSE. You had no suspicions at all in those posts. Your attack on my Anton "waffling" is silly because I took a more "he's neutral as of the moment" stance whereas you were "ehh he's scum but he may not be."
Nice OMGUS case though.
Affinity looks bad. Case on K4U is silly and the accusations made were silly as well. Not to mention he jumps the gun on umu for a silly reason of "WEAK CASE IS SCUM"
Nietz is bad and she should feel bad. Sticking with an early D1 case is bad and she should feel bad. Would want to know opinion on VgT buuuut
I need to /out. School is really getting busy, so yeah.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nachtwanderlied on September 18, 2009, 01:40:19 AM
That means I need to get replaced.
I'll get the word out.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 01:54:29 AM
Whoa, there's some serious rageahol going on in this thread.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kitten4u on September 18, 2009, 01:58:06 AM
I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow, which means that I haven't eaten in awhile again, so I'm not feeling particularly great right now.
My top two picks for today are Anthony and Rou. If you want details just ask for them. I'm okay with a VGT lynch. I might be able to be persuaded to go for Suwako, Nietz or Pesco, but I think the cases on Anthony, Rou and VGT are better.
Since it doesn't look like my choices are going anywhere and I'm not sure how long I'll be on I'll move my vote.
##Unvote ##Vote: VGameT
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 18, 2009, 02:28:52 AM
Looking at Nietz' point that I'm flinging whatever sticks, so tell me then. How many of the points I've brought up against my targets are valid and how many are invalid? List them ALL for us.
If you can't discern your own points, don't expect me to do it for you. Especially since in lieu of actual arguments you've been mostly dropping baits, recycling opinions and overall going with the flow. I've already summarized the case here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90379#msg90379) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90613#msg90613), and nothing has changed about your attitude since then, just some added provoking of Rou, obligatory attack on Suwako and overall scummy smugness.
Nietz is bad and she should feel bad. Sticking with an early D1 case is bad and she should feel bad.
It's not like he would stop being scum in the middle of the day. The point is still, if not more valid than before. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like we can get a pesco lynch today. Meh, I'm kind of agreeing with Suwako now. Town is too engrossed with finding easy lynches for Day 1 to look out for actual scummy behaviour.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Vibri on September 18, 2009, 03:05:00 AM
lol catfight up ins get it because one's shou and the other one is orin. it's a touhou joke
Yo Suwako that's a great post and I'mma let you finish but Day 1 is one of the best days of all time. Of all time. But no yeah I'm pretty sure it is impossible to make cases without using nightkills as evidence. Mafia is a game where you prove other players guilty by taking advantage of the rules and game mechanics instead of like doing thinking or whatever. How did we not realize this before. Real talk assuming there was a night 0 how would you proceed in playing. For example, Angel Milk still hasn't posted. Let's pretend Angel Milk was nightkilled night 0. Who is suspicious and why? Please relate any and all cases you make to actual game events posted by the moderator.
Pesco: From a brief skim it looks you think the following people are scum and must die, right now: Me, Anthony, and Rou. You've also called Nietz scummy and I think you called UK out at some point? Actually after a couple glances I don't think you've actually done anything besides pure offense. What do you think about Suwako? You've mentioned him a bunch but I don't think you've actually come out and said you want his head on a plate. Does that mean you think he's town? What about the other players?
Eliphas: UK jumped on the wagon for the exact same reason the other people did, within like one minute of it starting. It was him unvoting and clearing Anthony based on 'mindhax' that made people suspicious of him. I don't really get what you mean by 'ignoring what other people were saying about Anthony' either. Your exact words about Anthony were "can't pin an alignment on him because he can go either way," which you followed with "seems anti-town but that could be attributed to newbness" which I'm pretty sure is the same as "ehh he could be scum but he may not be." Also if you want to know Nietz's opinion on me you could try like reading some of the posts where he says it? But I guess if you're dropping then that's that. Good luck with school!
Eliphas is bailing so voting for him is obviously not going to do any good. Suwako's last post was basically like "everybody is wrong about everything because it's Day 1, I'll leave my vote on pesco because my gut is better than thinking or posting, but go ahead any lynch any of the vote leaders even though I just said there's actually no case against them. Gotta lynch someone, lol." That's kind of Not What I Was Looking For when I said you should try to make more sense. ##unvote, ##vote: Suwako Moriya.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 18, 2009, 03:08:05 AM
Quote
Eliphas: UK jumped on the wagon for the exact same reason the other people did, within like one minute of it starting. It was him unvoting and clearing Anthony based on 'mindhax' that made people suspicious of him. I don't really get what you mean by 'ignoring what other people were saying about Anthony' either.
Eto...*looks at profile*
*blinks*
Ok then.
Lol bandwagon at VgT. at least there was more reasoning on Eliphas. Too bad you unvoted him.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 18, 2009, 03:33:16 AM
Actually ##Unvote: Pesco##Vote: Kilga
The heck you doin, camera crow? Rest of this crew's pretty hopeless but I kinda expected more from you here. YOU know what I'm talkin about here, why you sittin back and letting this go on? Either you're resigned or you're scum and I don't take resignation to be your style.
Scumhunting comes from looking for players behaving as though they are part of an informed minority trying to avoid their faction being lynched. It only really starts when you get some flips and hard evidence to work with. Which means that yes indeed, there's usually no such thing as a day 1 scum lynch unless the scum are REALLY TERRIBLE or town is REALLY GOOD. I prefer not to assume scum are terrible, and town sure ain't good here.
Not all opinions are meaningful or useful and cases are not valid or worthy of comment just by virtue of existing. [/]
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 18, 2009, 03:33:50 AM
And what the heck is with formatting being so broken here?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 03:43:34 AM
If my silence toward the continued use of walls came off as tolerance of them that wasn't my intention.
That being said, what else do you want from me? VGT has given me zero reason to move my vote and the day is ending soon so there's not much left for me to do but wait for Day 2 to show up so we can start making actual cases.
I could keep yelling at people for posting walls but that seems fruitless at best and distracting at worst given the recent tension levels.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 18, 2009, 04:39:30 AM
And here I am, once again, because the alternative is lying in bed and failing at trying to sleep.
I have actually run out of ways to get angry at Suwako. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92031#msg92031) Now not only is he saying 'It's day 1, you'll never find ANYTHING TO WORK FROM SO YOU SHOULDN'T FUCKING DO ANYTHING' and 'Not posting anything useful at all is somehow equivalent to content', he takes his one opinion from his previous post (that Kilga looked Town) and throws it out of the fucking window.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Affinity on September 18, 2009, 04:41:22 AM
Quote from: Eliphas
Affinity looks bad. Case on K4U is silly and the accusations made were silly as well. Not to mention he jumps the gun on umu for a silly reason of "WEAK CASE IS SCUM"
Well, yes, weak case is scum, at least at the beginning of the day. Also, oranges are red because I said so; it has not been explained as to why they were silly, since she didn't elaborate at that point at first, and did so satisfactorily.
---
And Suwako's switch from Kilga is good to Kilga is bad for not arguing against the walls, which has nothing to do with scummy intent at all, is quite bad.
Quote from: Suwako
Not all opinions are meaningful or useful and cases are not valid or worthy of comment just by virtue of existing.
Yours are definitely one of them, of course. No reason to change my vote; especially since you actually managed to make your vote weaker by switching.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 18, 2009, 05:12:14 AM
Kilga, I was referring more towards that last post where you were all "o lol sure is some rageathol here with people voting Suwako!.... *crickets chirp*"
I don't know what was up with pyosting that - JUST that with nothing else - and I'm not soooo sure I like it. Buuut it doesn't seem like anyone else will buy a push on you so let's see.
Kilga and others voting VGT!
Can your frogs evade the snake? State your actual case/reason for voting him, in the form of "I think scum in this situation would do/not do X, and VGT is doing/not doing X here."
Actually it'd be pretty good if everyone would do this! I'll even start, if it wasn't clear from the above: I think scum in this situation would lay back and spur on the gobs of bad cases and unproductive discussion while taking few hard stances themselves and putting out ambiguous statements about cases like the one on myself. Pesco's been hanging back but supporting the spam and taking an attitude that puts himself out of the discussion while not condemning it, and Kilga did that with his one liner about rageathol.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 05:13:10 AM
Can we stop voting out of frustration and start voting for scumminess, please?
Let's go spoon-feed for a moment, since Suwako is catching a lot of flak for a Day 1 approach that we share (and yet no one has voted me for it).
Day 1 is a total crapshoot, barring a Night 0 or incredibly abnormal antics that lead to good luck, such as Seniwac's out-of-left-field VT claim in the last game that a noobscum fell for hook, line and sucker. Day 1 cases almost invariably have no merit, because there's no solid information to go on. I'm going to pluck a piece from Suwako's most recent post that people seem to have missed in their rage.
Scumhunting comes from looking for players behaving as though they are part of an informed minority trying to avoid their faction being lynched. It only really starts when you get some flips and hard evidence to work with. Which means that yes indeed, there's usually no such thing as a day 1 scum lynch unless the scum are REALLY TERRIBLE or town is REALLY GOOD. I prefer not to assume scum are terrible, and town sure ain't good here.
In layman's terms, this says that a case will only really start to have merit when it's based on flips and interactions with those people that flipped, or it is founded in information gained from a power role. On Day 1, no power roles have activated yet, and no one has died, meaning we have no flips to work off of. Thus the overwhelming majority of Day 1 cases are meaningless and will be ignored in the long run. Don't believe this? Check the records. How often have we lynched scum on Day 1? Had it ever happened before Zengar, who can be chalked up to a Seniwac-induced fluke? The back of my mind seems to think it happened exactly once before that but I can't remember who or what game it was, so I'm not really counting it as reliable.
This ties in to why Suwako and I are posting so little (or at least I'm trying to), and why I presume Kiro and Serpentarius aren't posting a whole lot since they're in the group of players I'd expect to get it as well. There's not much to say, so we're not saying much. More importantly, we're not wasting time and clogging up the thread with massive walls about what will amount to nothing once Day 2 rolls around and we have flips to work with (and investigative roles will have some extra info). Scum's job is to confuse and misdirect, and walls of text and silly arguments make for excellent obfuscation tools. Let people waste time and get pissy with each other, it'll lead to an easy mislynch and could cause distractions (and re-reaid pain) down the road. Now obviously not everyone who posts walls is scum, and scum are more than likely not to post walls themselves since they have even less to say on Day 1 than town do, so what they'll commonly try to do is fan the flames of obfuscation by silently encouraging walls and rage. Maybe they'll try to keep a particularly pointless argument going by pressing exactly the right buttons. There are plenty of ways to do this.
All of this is why Suwako (and myself, as much as I've been trying) is kicking back her heels and waiting for Day 2 to start. We'll all have a flip or two to work with and some people will have extra info. Much better than the continuous WIFOM we have rolling right now. There's no need to add to the already deafening level of noise.
So can we please stop voting for Suwako because we don't understand/disagree with her playstyle? Even in the grand scheme of shitty Day 1 cases, that method ranks very highly amongst the most worthless. Find someone that's been trying to hide in plain sight, or someone that's been fanning the flames. Better than someone that clearly intends to work to find scum with flips.
Cut by the goddess in question. Will respond in a separate post.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 05:16:23 AM
My case on VGT is as such:
I think scum in any situation will try to look active while providing as few meaningful opinions as possible, and VGT has tried to look active while providing as few meaningful opinions as possible.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 18, 2009, 05:34:25 AM
Quote
In layman's terms, this says that a case will only really start to have merit when it's based on flips and interactions with those people that flipped, or it is founded in information gained from a power role. On Day 1, no power roles have activated yet, and no one has died, meaning we have no flips to work off of. Thus the overwhelming majority of Day 1 cases are meaningless and will be ignored in the long run. Don't believe this? Check the records. How often have we lynched scum on Day 1? Had it ever happened before Zengar, who can be chalked up to a Seniwac-induced fluke? The back of my mind seems to think it happened exactly once before that but I can't remember who or what game it was, so I'm not really counting it as reliable.
So, in other words, you're as fucking apathetic as Suwako is. True, you can say what you like about Day 1 being pointless and it being nearly impossible to lynch scum, but if that's the way you're going to look at the game why bother playing? Maybe we should all just sit and say nothing for the first day, wait for the first scum hit and then try to work from - oh wait, no, that won't work because no-one's said anything.
This is just scum trying to pass off an excuse to do nothing. Apathy doesn't earn Town ANYTHING, which is exactly what Suwako is trying to endorse.
As you may have guessed I'm very irritated with this game right now, but given that Seniwac's already went ahead and asked for a replacement I can hardly make things even worse for Edible. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kiro on September 18, 2009, 05:47:58 AM
To amuse Suwako: I think scum would be more likely to actively resist putting a case forward than Town and VgT has done that and held off for a long time. You are not being voted by me because despite the superficial apathy you're giving off, you had a decent stance on Pesco that could be read into a little easier than VgT. Your switch to Kilga for sitting back seems to the same type of stance as the one you had on Pesco so are you ranking one as more scummy than the other or is this vote on Kilga more of a prod? And how does this affect your stance on VgT if you've been voting people on his wagon when you also say you're ok with the VgT lynch in #261?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 05:50:50 AM
In layman's terms, this says that a case will only really start to have merit when it's based on flips and interactions with those people that flipped, or it is founded in information gained from a power role. On Day 1, no power roles have activated yet, and no one has died, meaning we have no flips to work off of. Thus the overwhelming majority of Day 1 cases are meaningless and will be ignored in the long run. Don't believe this? Check the records. How often have we lynched scum on Day 1? Had it ever happened before Zengar, who can be chalked up to a Seniwac-induced fluke? The back of my mind seems to think it happened exactly once before that but I can't remember who or what game it was, so I'm not really counting it as reliable.
So, in other words, you're as fucking apathetic as Suwako is. True, you can say what you like about Day 1 being pointless and it being nearly impossible to lynch scum, but if that's the way you're going to look at the game why bother playing? Maybe we should all just sit and say nothing for the first day, wait for the first scum hit and then try to work from - oh wait, no, that won't work because no-one's said anything.
People are going to wall it up anyway. It would be nice if everyone took the succinct approach to Day 1, but it's not going to happen. Refusal to add to the noise and choosing instead to wait for solid information to work off of, however, is Pro-Town, not Anti-Town. Obfuscation is Anti-Town. Suwako and I are not endorsing obfuscation. Suwako and I are endorsing informed decision-making. If it's "apathy", it's a Special Day 1 Apathy, and you can be damned sure I'm going to take part because it's the smarter way to play regardless of any scary buzzwords that get attached to it.
You're playing far too by-the-book this game. Stop thinking so much about exactly what people are doing and start thinking more about exactly why they're doing it. I imagine it will be better for your blood pressure because you'll be discussing things that are up for interpretation rather than just throwing down a "this action is bad", expecting people to follow, and then becoming bewildered when they don't. The exact same thing happened to me last game.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 06:11:56 AM
It's also worth noting that a "quality" Day 1 case managed to pop up almost immediately with Anthony's reaction to being called out and it ended up giving everyone something to weigh in on.
So actually I take that back about how walls are inevitable, because Day 1 could still meander along quite easily without them and the hang-back-and-analyze-attitudes-instead-of-cases approach would still be perfectly viable. If everyone took a more succinct approach to the Anthony situation and the things that stemmed from it then we'd be exactly in that situation.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 18, 2009, 06:52:27 AM
Looking at Nietz' point that I'm flinging whatever sticks, so tell me then. How many of the points I've brought up against my targets are valid and how many are invalid? List them ALL for us.
If you can't discern your own points, don't expect me to do it for you. Especially since in lieu of actual arguments you've been mostly dropping baits, recycling opinions and overall going with the flow. I've already summarized the case here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90379#msg90379) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90613#msg90613), and nothing has changed about your attitude since then, just some added provoking of Rou, obligatory attack on Suwako and overall scummy smugness.
You're not answering my question. I wanted you to lay out specifics of exactly which points I've raised on all my targets are 'flung shit' and which ones are valid. Summaries are vague.
Pesco: From a brief skim it looks you think the following people are scum and must die, right now: Me, Anthony, and Rou. You've also called Nietz scummy and I think you called UK out at some point? Actually after a couple glances I don't think you've actually done anything besides pure offense. What do you think about Suwako? You've mentioned him a bunch but I don't think you've actually come out and said you want his head on a plate. Does that mean you think he's town? What about the other players?
There hasn't been much for me to defend against, so I take the fight to you.
Wrt Suwako, I didn't like the posts initially. But, if you think about being an elitist and see things from that way, what Kilga has just said makes sense. Think about the activity levels of the better players (who are elitists) here. I'd have to call it better ability at picking out the most important bits from all the stuff we post. I don't particularly feel like voting Suwako because I wanted to deal with him another way. With the recent posts, I think it won't be necessary anymore either.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 18, 2009, 07:07:56 AM
Quote
In layman's terms, this says that a case will only really start to have merit when it's based on flips and interactions with those people that flipped, or it is founded in information gained from a power role.
This was never put into question. It is undisputed from both sides of the arguement that this is true.
What is being put into question is that if everyone is suppose to handle day one like Suwako (And apparently You) suggests to handle it, then there will be no meaningful interactions. All we would have are flips, but nothing inbetween them to analyze.
This is what we disagree with.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 18, 2009, 08:19:08 AM
If Tenshi has decided to ditch the game, come in here and say so. Then we can be all rude and pissy at you and be on our way.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Hououin Kyouma on September 18, 2009, 08:23:00 AM
If Tenshi has decided to ditch the game, come in here and say so. Then we can be all rude and pissy at you and be on our way.
I haven't ditched it :'(
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 18, 2009, 08:29:29 AM
This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=80), this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.240) and this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.150) show that you have.
[offtopic]I had a glimpse of what you said on IRC before I left this morning and if that was the case, you should have notified the mod instead of stuffing around. (I'm allowed to get angry too)[/offtopic]
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 18, 2009, 09:01:01 AM
Iiiiiinteresting Looking active while providing no meaningful opinions eh That describes, likero, half the game-o though. Why VGT specifically? Because he didn't throw down a "case" and vote like other people did? Is this really indicative of scumminess?
Less than convincing.
I'm on the fence with Kilga and Pesco, annnnd... still cool voting Kilga I think due to less than convincingness. Tempered by the difficulty of picking anyone else out of the crowd, though. Also not under the delusion that he'll actually be lynched, but so it goes.
Rou and Zakeri... woooow guys you need some chill pills.
Mindblowing revelation #1: there are happy turnouts possible for day 1 where people don't spam stupid cases as fast as they can and cling to them "because not having a case is scummy," and yet there is actually discussion and meaningful stances that can be used later. I know, it may be hard to imagine, but bear with me here.
Mindblowing revelation #2: scum can play using tactics that are generally protown! In fact it's one of the best ways to play and one of the easiest wins as scum, if town's got their head up their cloaca and lets you be the towniest looking mothersnaker on the field. See avatar.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 18, 2009, 09:06:05 AM
I'd still very much like to trash your shrine.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 18, 2009, 09:33:59 AM
Vote Count: In Which The Mod Sleeps Through Deadline VGameT (6) - Kiro, Kilgamayan, Eliphas, pesco, UncertainKitten, Kitten4U Pesco (1) - Nietz Nietz (1) - u? Suwako Moriya (6) - Roukanken, Affinity, Serpentarius, Zakeri, Anthony, VGameT Kilgamayan (1) - Suwako Moriya
VGameT and Suwako Moriya are at L-3.
Not voting: Angel Milk
The day will end in approximately 8 hours. This will likely be the final official votecount of Day 1 until deadline.
Please consult the rules for any clarification into deadline policies. Any vote changes after 1:20 PM Eastern Standard Time will be considered invalid, whether I'm awake or not.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Affinity on September 18, 2009, 10:37:01 AM
Angel Milk, at the very least, drop a vote on someone you think is scummy.
Quote
there are happy turnouts possible for day 1 where people don't spam stupid cases as fast as they can and cling to them "because not having a case is scummy," and yet there is actually discussion and meaningful stances that can be used later. I know, it may be hard to imagine, but bear with me here.
Examples, examples. Your case is as stupid as anyone else's really, reliant on pesco 'hanging back and fanning the flames', why scum and town can interchangably take on attitudes that you assign to both and thus it's not useful because attitudes are reliant on meta and are easier to fake.
Quote
scum can play using tactics that are generally protown! In fact it's one of the best ways to play and one of the easiest wins as scum, if town's got their head up their cloaca and lets you be the towniest looking mothersnaker on the field. See avatar
And scum can also play in the way you and Kilga are playing! Why, it's a lose-lose and an exercise in WIFOM. Better that people have something to fall back on later in the game so that votes can be analyzed rather than to play the Russian Roulette, which is against my code of morals as the goddess of plenty. If this weren't true you would be voting Zakeri or u-mu or someone like that; the 'pro-town' players.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Hououin Kyouma on September 18, 2009, 10:42:41 AM
Okay, I am trying to put everything in a nutshell.
The reason I didn't post is because the internet was cut off so I used my neighbor's internet through my Ipod to post so I didn't have enough time to read all of the thread.
Anthony went on a wagon Everybody voted for Anthony Anthony unvoted People still voted for Anthony Umu and Roukan blah blah (Roukan is always like this) Voting a newbie crap (Roukan: Vote for newbies if they madk a mistake until they do something about it) Suwako's post........ More blah Suwako complaining about posting a lot on the first day Suwako Moriya wagon and VgT wagon WoTs WoTs
Suwako: Out of all the people I find you most suspicious. First of all you hardly posted. I know I have only posted twice including this post but I have my reasons. I read the thread. From what I am seeing you only read part of the thread. Second of all, I agree with the part that Day 1 is useless but not posting won't do shit. I know I basically took other people words but that's because there is nothing to talk expect for what they already said.
VGT: All I sense is WIFOM, Wishy washy reasonings and WoTs.
Out of these two, I find Suwako more suspicious.
Vote:Suwako
[off topic]Pesco: I was reading the thread while I was on the IRC. I tend lose concentration after a while when I read. yeah, I should have told the Mod. Pesco, stop stalking me[/offtopic]
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 18, 2009, 10:57:03 AM
Refusal to add to the noise and choosing instead to wait for solid information to work off of, however, is Pro-Town, not Anti-Town.
Except that by this logic, if everyone were to make the supposedly Pro-Town decision, the result would be Anti-Town.
Quote
Obfuscation is Anti-Town. Suwako and I are not endorsing obfuscation. Suwako and I are endorsing informed decision-making.
The point being IT'S DAY 1. If you can't make informed decisions yet, at least have some opinions so that you can be judged on them later. Hanging back like this is an excellent way for scum to let attention fall on the louder Townies.
Quote
If it's "apathy", it's a Special Day 1 Apathy, and you can be damned sure I'm going to take part because it's the smarter way to play regardless of any scary buzzwords that get attached to it.
Alright, if it's the smarter way to play then Tenshi is a fucking genius.
Quote
you'll be discussing things that are up for interpretation rather than just throwing down a "this action is bad"
Seriously? Seriously? Are you really going for the 'everything's up for interpretation' argument? What, am I arguing religion again? If we sit here and reduce everything to 'interpretation', then everyone gets the right to read anything as whatever they like if there's the tiniest bit of reasoning. The simple fact is that affiliation is not open to interpretation - Role PMs went out before Day 1 even started. You're either scum or you aren't.
Quote
Mindblowing revelation #1: there are happy turnouts possible for day 1 where people don't spam stupid cases as fast as they can and cling to them "because not having a case is scummy," and yet there is actually discussion and meaningful stances that can be used later. I know, it may be hard to imagine, but bear with me here.
Once again, congratulations on dismissing every single case out there as inherently stupid. And can I assume that we members of MotK are far too retarded to have ever had a decent Day 1, excepting a stupid scum D1 fuckup?
Quote
Mindblowing revelation #2: scum can play using tactics that are generally protown! In fact it's one of the best ways to play and one of the easiest wins as scum, if town's got their head up their cloaca and lets you be the towniest looking mothersnaker on the field. See avatar.
Mindblowing revelation #3: If there's no way to identify scum as scum outside power roles, then there's no point in playing the fucking game! If we can't take scummy mistakes as being scummy and suspect people who we 'think are scum acting pro-town', then we may as well draw straws and lynch at random.
Quote
Rou and Zakeri... woooow guys you need some chill pills.
I've been in university for less than a week and I already want out. That is all.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 18, 2009, 12:49:42 PM
I believe I understand and disagree with Suwako's position. Also, N0 is terribly overrated. I'm really not sure what to make of this vote on Kilga though; it exploits the difference between *Telling people to be quiet and not do anything *Letting people argue and commenting on the important stuff While the latter can be seen as an anti-Town stance (lurking), it's also the more pragmatic option. Ideally Day 1 would have even participation from all the players, so while your statement that the people who are overposting should slow down a bit is correct, your own content of "SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP Vote Kilga for not telling people to SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP" doesn't justify itself.
I'm not sure which wagon to back right now. I've got a shaky newbTown read on VgameT, but my initial approach to S. Moriya was to let him get two of his precious flips and then pressure him with a steamroller D2. The VgameT lynch would provide more information, but that's not why you lynch people...
I'll waffle a bit on that and come back in a few hours :\
@Rou: Roommates?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 18, 2009, 01:06:27 PM
I've got a shaky newbTown read on VgameT, but my initial approach to S. Moriya was to let him get two of his precious flips and then pressure him with a steamroller D2.
This implies that said flips would make Suwako look bad. I really don't like the sound of this statement, and it's worth following in the event that we get a Town flip today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 01:14:51 PM
In layman's terms, this says that a case will only really start to have merit when it's based on flips and interactions with those people that flipped, or it is founded in information gained from a power role.
This was never put into question. It is undisputed from both sides of the arguement that this is true.
What is being put into question is that if everyone is suppose to handle day one like Suwako (And apparently You) suggests to handle it, then there will be no meaningful interactions. All we would have are flips, but nothing inbetween them to analyze.
It's also worth noting that a "quality" Day 1 case managed to pop up almost immediately with Anthony's reaction to being called out and it ended up giving everyone something to weigh in on.
So actually I take that back about how walls are inevitable, because Day 1 could still meander along quite easily without them and the hang-back-and-analyze-attitudes-instead-of-cases approach would still be perfectly viable. If everyone took a more succinct approach to the Anthony situation and the things that stemmed from it then we'd be exactly in that situation.
Now obviously if absolutely everyone tried the exact same hang-back thing then nothing would get done, so in that case it's perfectly fine to step up and take the initiative by following "normal" Day 1 conventions wrt case-making. When there's already so much useless ambient noise, though? No.
Iiiiiinteresting Looking active while providing no meaningful opinions eh That describes, likero, half the game-o though. Why VGT specifically? Because he didn't throw down a "case" and vote like other people did? Is this really indicative of scumminess?
On Day 1? Sure.
I wouldn't say it describes "half the game" because plenty of other people were willing to go out on a limb and say "I think ____ is town/scum because _____" regardless of how good the reason for it was.
It's also worth noting that a "quality" Day 1 case managed to pop up almost immediately with Anthony's reaction to being called out and it ended up giving everyone something to weigh in on.
So actually I take that back about how walls are inevitable, because Day 1 could still meander along quite easily without them and the hang-back-and-analyze-attitudes-instead-of-cases approach would still be perfectly viable. If everyone took a more succinct approach to the Anthony situation and the things that stemmed from it then we'd be exactly in that situation.
Now obviously if absolutely everyone tried the exact same hang-back thing then nothing would get done, so in that case it's perfectly fine to step up and take the initiative by following "normal" Day 1 conventions wrt case-making. When there's already so much useless ambient noise, though? No.
The point being IT'S DAY 1. If you can't make informed decisions yet, at least have some opinions so that you can be judged on them later. Hanging back like this is an excellent way for scum to let attention fall on the louder Townies.
You say this like Suwako and I don't have any opinions on the table.
If "loud" Townies don't want suspicion to fall on them they maybe they should tone it down? Seems like the logical counter to doing something scum can exploit to me.
Alright, if it's the smarter way to play then Tenshi is a fucking genius.
You really need to stop being so narrow-minded if you're equating what Suwako and myself have done this game to what Tenshi has done this game. Suwako and I have had opinions from the beginning. I changed mine a little bit as the day progressed, while Suwako stuck to hers for most of the day before the recent change.
Tenshi has literally done nothing until now. No posts (outside of "whoa the game started?"), no opinions. This is not at all what we've done. I don't know why you'd equate our situations other than this bizarre and incorrect "people who don't post a lot are scum!" formula that you've subscribed to for whatever reason.
Seriously? Seriously? Are you really going for the 'everything's up for interpretation' argument? What, am I arguing religion again? If we sit here and reduce everything to 'interpretation', then everyone gets the right to read anything as whatever they like if there's the tiniest bit of reasoning. The simple fact is that affiliation is not open to interpretation - Role PMs went out before Day 1 even started. You're either scum or you aren't.
Not up for interpretation: "VGT hasn't voted yet." Up for interpretation: "VGT hasn't posted anything of worth."
The former wasn't arguable up until he moved to Seniwac (which has already been discussed by other people so I won't get into it). The latter, though, can be - and did get! - argued. And yes, people have "the right to read anything as whatever they want", but if scum abuse this and read things in obviously incorrect or scummy ways then they're going to get called on it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 18, 2009, 01:16:39 PM
Ideally Day 1 would have even participation from all the players, so while your statement that the people who are overposting should slow down a bit is correct, your own content of "SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP Vote Kilga for not telling people to SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP" doesn't justify itself.
This is not why Suwako is voting for me, though.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 18, 2009, 01:47:06 PM
I've got a shaky newbTown read on VgameT, but my initial approach to S. Moriya was to let him get two of his precious flips and then pressure him with a steamroller D2.
This implies that said flips would make Suwako look bad. I really don't like the sound of this statement, and it's worth following in the event that we get a Town flip today.
I don't follow.
@Kilga: Again, I don't follow. Why is Suwako voting for you?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 18, 2009, 01:53:51 PM
Quote
Now obviously if absolutely everyone tried the exact same hang-back thing then nothing would get done, so in that case it's perfectly fine to step up and take the initiative by following "normal" Day 1 conventions wrt case-making. When there's already so much useless ambient noise, though? No.
Again, why are you labelling all of this as useless? People are making cases, stating opinions, and after a flip or two they can be held to these opinions and then more discussion can start.
Quote
You say this like Suwako and I don't have any opinions on the table.
Given that Suwako has basically been tunneling on you and Pesco all day? I'd say that opinion is pretty valid. Likewise, your contribution has more or less been 'STFU GUYS YOU'RE ALL RETARDED, VOTE VGT FOR NOT HAVING OPINIONS'.
Quote
If "loud" Townies don't want suspicion to fall on them they maybe they should tone it down? Seems like the logical counter to doing something scum can exploit to me.
And thus we retract to the 'if no-one is willing to speak up, anti-town results'. We need loud Townies to bounce conversation off of.
Quote
You really need to stop being so narrow-minded if you're equating what Suwako and myself have done this game to what Tenshi has done this game. Suwako and I have had opinions from the beginning. I changed mine a little bit as the day progressed, while Suwako stuck to hers for most of the day before the recent change.
Tenshi has literally done nothing until now. No posts (outside of "whoa the game started?"), no opinions. This is not at all what we've done. I don't know why you'd equate our situations other than this bizarre and incorrect "people who don't post a lot are scum!" formula that you've subscribed to for whatever reason.
Firstly, it's called Lynch All Lurkers. I'm relatively sure YOU were the one who introduced it to MotK in IN Mafia.
Secondly, I'm saying that Tenshi is the logical extreme of your ideal - you say people talk too much, but Tenshi isn't talking at all. Where do you draw the line between your Special Day 1 Apathy and outright lurking?
Thirdly, it irritates me how the two of you post so often and most of your posts consist of complaining that everyone else is talking too much. Take Suwako's advice and get your head out of your clacoa - maybe we aren't godlike players like you are, but that doesn't me we aren't doing our damnedest right now.
Finally, I am of the opinion that this Day 1 Apathy tactic of yours is massively anti-Town. I'm reminded of an old riddle: "A professor visits a store along with his wife when the two are split up. The wife is about to go looking for him when she remembers something her husband had said in a lecture - 'if two people are separated, it will help them come together faster if one stays where they are while the other searches'. Assuming she remembered the lecture correctly, why was it a mistake for her to wait?" The answer?
The professor thought exactly the same thing and waited for his wife to find him elsewhere.
This mindset of yours and Suwako's gives the two of you a convenient excuse to not contribute to discussion without being reprimanded for it. That is what makes me convinced that Suwako is worth voting for, and I'm beginning to remember something you said at the end of Communication Breakdance (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1918.msg86369#msg86369):
Quote
Also, since I don't have to worry about people going "Kilga is using meta! Get him!" anymore, my scum play is to put my ass on the line, not my buddies'. Look at PC-98, SWR and Bamboo Forest, three games in a row where I was scum. All three games I came under heavy fire on Day 2 whilst my buddies were allowed to coast on through to the victory. Thinking I would throw buddies away to win the game myself is silly.
Note how you've come out of the woodworks to defend Suwako's style of play. I'm thinking personally that a Suwako flip would be very education in terms of your affiliation...
It comes across as you being relatively sure that these flips will harm Suwako - i.e. people who he aren't voting for (VgT) are scum or vice versa.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 18, 2009, 01:55:26 PM
EBWOP: Gah, people who he isn't voting for is what I meant. I'm taking a bus home for the weekend in about ten minutes, so this is my last post before the phase change most likely. Still happy with a Suwako lynch right now on the basis of not contributing to discussion and trying to evade it via Appeal to Authority.
Umu, put your vote somewhere where it'll do something. Nietz lynch isn't happening today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 18, 2009, 02:45:50 PM
Nobody read what I said about elitism? I think if you understood, we can skip out a whole bunch of method arguing.
And Rou, you can't play this game with a dead set formula. Don't even try argue about it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: ?q on September 18, 2009, 02:53:01 PM
Rou, in case you missed it, I'm trying to decide where to put that vote.
The point behind my comment about Suwako was not so much that I think the flips will hurt him (how would they?) so much as catering to him (here's your bloody flips, so act useful now that you have no excuse for sitting back and whining, you frogface).
tbh a VgameT lynch would be awesome for that, so go go deadline vote that will likely come under fire later, etc. ##Unvote: Nietz ##Vote: VgameT (L-2)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 18, 2009, 03:00:40 PM
ITT guess who is playing for Suwako.
Alice.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Serp on September 18, 2009, 03:13:53 PM
I don't buy Suwako's supposed strategy of waiting on flips to start making real cases. I'll grant that a scum flip is the tool of choice when it's available, but a town flip just confirms that the case on the lynchee wasn't valid after all. And if there really is no lynching scum D1, then a town flip is what we're doomed to get, right? If there isn't any serious discussion on who to lynch before the flip, then all you get are people talking about it after the fact. Furthermore, I don't see how night kills provide a whole lot of evidence on who to lynch, and night actions are supposed to supplement daytime scumhunting, not replace it - that's why there are godfathers and millers. The vote on Kilga also looks like a throwaway vote, though to be fair, a vote on anyone but VgT (or himself) isn't likely to result in a lynch at this point.
Suwako's play is weird for scum, I admit, but it's even weirder for town. Just like you shouldn't clear people for bad play, you shouldn't clear them for bizarre play either. I foresee Suwako suddenly shaping up D2 or D3 and coasting into LyLo in part due to the lack of any incriminating early connections to any scum we end up lynching. As far as lack of contribution goes, Angel Milk is worse, of course, but the key here is that Suwako's play is willful while Angel Milk's just looks incidental.
VgameT's my secondary lynch, followed by Anthony. I'll be online to hammer if necessary up to the deadline.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 18, 2009, 03:57:06 PM
I'll be honest. I skimmed everything since about 11:30 PM EDT last night. Suwako switched to Kilga, Kilga explained why D1 apathy was ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL RIIIIIIIIIIGHT, and Suwako is suddenly getting less hate, and Kilga is resigned to being voted by Suwako. Rou is still trying to play lawful stupid, and Tenshi REALLY NEEDS TO FUCKING POST.
I will at least give my opinion on D1 apathy, mostly that it's not very useful since you lose a lot of the D1 ties that MAKE the flips worth while. Now, succinctness, that is logically protown. But not posting anything of worth at all? Not pro town. And Suwako has not posted much of worth given the limited amount of words she uses. If you want to argue succinctness=protown, then you MUST accept that each word is at a much higher value, and there is a higher demand for each sentence formed to have information, and a lot of it. As such, Suwako is NOT being pro town by hanging back saying "FUCK NAW!" to walls. However, I argue VgT is more antitown for saying lots of words and providing little to no information except Suwako and Kilga, until way late in the day. So, too little, too late in the end. I also want to humor Suwako and see if she comes back with actual connections and opinions D2.
In other news, I'll place my bet on FAV, the disappearing young lady shook MotK mafia to it's core. Suwako is the antithesis of her playstyle, but I'm willing to bet she can change her playstyle if she likes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 18, 2009, 04:33:17 PM
Vote Count: In Which The Mod Didn't Sleep Through Deadline After All <3 VGameT (7) - Kiro, Kilgamayan, Eliphas, pesco, UncertainKitten, Kitten4U, umu Pesco (1) - Nietz Suwako Moriya (7) - Roukanken, Affinity, Serpentarius, Zakeri, Anthony, VGameT, Angel Milk Kilgamayan (1) - Suwako Moriya
VGameT and Suwako Moriya are at L-2.
Not voting: No one!
Less than one hour remains.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 18, 2009, 04:40:48 PM
In the name of Omoikane, what the hell is with you all to start making so much noise in the end of the day, like there wasn't enough already.
Nothing relevant since last time I checked, pesco is still the scummiest (and no, if you can't defend yourself I'm not taking your hand and doing it for you). I'd like to keep my vote where it is because the only other lynch I would be OK right now is Milk, but No Lynch would be worse, so I'll try to be around deadline in it's needed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Nietz on September 18, 2009, 04:48:57 PM
Actually, seems I can't stay.
##Unvote ##Vote: VGameT A Suwako flip tells next to nothing, a VgT scumflip could at least mostly clear my case on pesco.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 18, 2009, 04:54:25 PM
Cool story moonbitch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Kiro on September 18, 2009, 04:58:27 PM
I'm here. Available to switch around if needed. Still would prefer a VgT lynch as I think he's more likely to be Scum than Suwako despite all the animosity that could be attributed to the latter. And like umu says, I think by Day 2, Suwako will have higher standards to meet after all this disgust he's been forced to "deal with" on Day 1. If he's Town who plans to get some good leads by then, he'll be motivated to provide.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 18, 2009, 05:05:38 PM
VGameT is at L-1. Suwako Moriya is at L-2.
~15 minutes remain.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Serp on September 18, 2009, 05:06:17 PM
I'm here and ready to hammer, just holding back in case someone's trying to rush a last post.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 18, 2009, 05:13:39 PM
Votecount is unchanged.
5 minutes remain.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Serp on September 18, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
##Unvote ##Vote: VgameT (Hammer)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Edible on September 18, 2009, 05:30:59 PM
"Words words words words words words words!"
"Oh yeah? Words words words words words words words words words!"
"Well, so's your mother! Words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words-"
The day was long and so very, very noisy. Some of the group thought it would never end... but end it has.
Much of the discussion was focused around Unzan's weird sense of humor, then someone chimed up. "Hey, wait a minute. Clouds can't talk."
"You're right! LYNCH HIM!"
"What do you mean clouds can't talk, I- uh... BROFIST BROFIST BROFIIIIIST >:("
Moral of Day 1: Do you have any idea how difficult it is to lynch a cloud?
VgameT, playing Unzan, Vanilla Townie, was not lynched!
...
That's because he was actually VgameT, playing Unzan, Mafia Goon. And he was lynched. Eventually. Once people figured out how.
It is now Night 1. You have until 1:20 PM EST tomorrow (around 24 hours) to submit any and all night actions.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 1) - Sleepy Sleepy Time
Post by: Edible on September 18, 2009, 05:36:06 PM
As a reminder, we have one open slot for replacement - if you know anyone who would like to step in, please let me know.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 1) - Sleepy Sleepy Time
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 18, 2009, 07:10:41 PM
Quote
Moral of Day 1: Do you have any idea how difficult it is to lynch a cloud?
It involve an ice fairy, a glass tube, and a close valve pump. :V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 1) - Sleepy Sleepy Time
Post by: Vibri on September 18, 2009, 09:30:04 PM
flip would have been funnier if you had made my scumname UNzan or something
hey guys I had fun playing, so thanks!
Title: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 19, 2009, 06:17:31 PM
Dawn of the Second Day
(Flavor post may or may not come later.)
u? was roasted last night. He was Koishi Komeiji, Adorable Cute Noise-Making Vanilla Townie.
It is now Day 2. You have 72 hours to dance. Go for broke!
The vote count has been reset. With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
Sodium has now replaced Eliphas. Thank you.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 19, 2009, 06:45:15 PM
First!
vote Rou
Obvious reasons, etc.
I'm also going to say Suwako is pretty much cleared by prior interactions (Which I implied in my wall on VgT, but didn't outright say. At least I planned to imply it when I saw it...um...yeah...it was the "making Suwako contribute with his fists, and mostly poking Suwako throughout the entire day")
I'll reread him again later to see if anyone besides Rou is obv buddies with him.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 06:48:48 PM
People Who Look Really Good
Kiro Youmu Nietz UncertainKitten Suwako Moriya
People Who Look Good But Could Have Been Bussing
Kitten4U Pesco Sodium (but not Seniwac because Seniwac is not allowed to look good)
People Who Don't Actually Look Too Terrible Despite Being On The Wrong Wagon
Affinity
People Who Look Bad But Not As Much As The Others Listed Below
Roukan Zakeri
People Who Look Really Bad
Tenshi Anthony
People That Need To Be Lynched Today
##Vote: Serpentarius
- VGT is "close second" to Anthony here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90311#msg90311) rather than top case. Possible namedrop in the event of a future VGT flip. - Vote for Now Pretty Clearly Town Suwako to put her one vote behind VGT (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91426#msg91426). The VGT case has suddenly disappeared - where to? Also, an accusation of trying to "avoid having to say anything incriminating D1"? Seriously? That's weak. - Late in the day, and VGT is suddenly a high priority case again! (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92696#msg92696) Not as high priority as Suwako though, apparently. This was at a crucial end-of-day time, when both VGT and Suwako were at L-2. Notably completely wrong interpretation of how a D1 town flip would play out on D2 (in addition to discussion of why analyzing night kills are bad where did this come from???) makes case against Suwako look even weaker and more and more like an attempt to save VGT.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 19, 2009, 06:51:16 PM
Yanno...I think I figured out why Kilga makes so much sense. You actually review the game during the night phase, don't you?
Why in the nine hells has that never occured to me in my entire mafia history...
I'll want to reread Serpy for myself, because I admittedly went into today ready to blast Rou the minute I saw VgT's flip, but...yeah...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 06:54:45 PM
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Depends on my mood and the flow of the game. In this case I did because we had a scum flip to work off of.
It's worth noting that the above list was constructed solely on reviewing the various approaches to the two wagons.
Also, Edible, next time you might want to unlock the topic. >_>
I don't think I locked it in the first place.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 19, 2009, 06:56:23 PM
u? was roasted last night. He was Koishi Komeiji, Adorable Cute Noise-Making Vanilla Townie.
uu... umu~<3
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Sodium on September 19, 2009, 07:02:16 PM
Gpop would be sad to see Koishi dead. ;_;
So Hi guys, I'm the replacement, as usual.
And as I said in the replacement topic, I'm (somewhat) busy today and tomorrow. >_> Sorry bout that, but real life, stuff to do, importance over mafia, etc. I'll try to make a catch-up post today though(can't right now), and I should be able to post normally after Sunday.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 19, 2009, 07:12:12 PM
Also, Edible, next time you might want to unlock the topic. >_>
Quote
Locked "INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar" Today at 02:52:06 pm Kilgamayan Global Moderator
Kilgamayan is at L-1.
Kidding.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 07:15:07 PM
I saw a lock icon and ended up clicking on "Unlock Topic", so I don't know what that's about.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 19, 2009, 08:03:51 PM
I honestly felt Pesco was trying to bog VgT down, hence why I didn't suspect him as much as I should have. I really have nothing else to say on the subject that'd be productive. Hence I'm gonna just keep moving forward and
##Vote: Eliphas/Seniwac/Whatever His Name Is Right Now
There were plenty of public, generally accepted targets out there on Day 1, and VgT was being pressed to find someone to put a vote against. Therefore he should have had an easy enough time of it, but besides all the possible targets (with a Townie or two almost definitely in there somewhere) he goes for Seniwac. Given that there was a good chance he was going to be lynched by this point, I'm reading this as trying to distance himself from a teammate.
In other news, the other new lynch that stands out post-D1 is Serp. Little contribution, waiting around to be the hammer on VgT, etc.
One thing that's still lingering from D1, though. Question: Why is Suwako so clearly town? He attempted to defend VgT here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92413#msg92413) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92552#msg92552) and didn't really raise points against anyone except Pesco and the (now very likely Town) Kilga.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Serp on September 19, 2009, 08:16:01 PM
Hold on, Kilga, how exactly does Suwako look "really good"? (cut by Rou on this point, but it deserves restating) He dismissed the case on VgT along with all the others.
Regarding my 222, notice that VgT only posted once in between that post and my previous one, and that post cut mine by six minutes. I skimmed his post, and it looked like he had addressed the reasons that he was being voted against for, so I didn't bother to include him in my recap of who I found scummy. On my final reread of the day, I noticed that he had gone back to lots of words with little content, and so I noted that he was a viable lynch.
I also want to know what you mean when you say that I interpreted the meaning of a D1 town flip would be wrong. My explanation of why deductions from night kills are a bad idea is that it's such an incredibly easy factor to WIFOM, yet Suwako claimed that we can't possibly hope to catch scum until we have some VT flips to work from.
My preferred case at the moment:
##Vote: Suwako Moriya
VgameT's flip doesn't really make him look any better. The way that Suwako just casually dismissed his case and pressed for some third party to be lynched instead looks more like an attempt to save a scumbuddy than pushing a legitimate case on an unflipped player does. I also don't like the way that Kilga is going after people for being on the "wrong" wagon when both wagons could well have been right.
Also, Rou, Sodium has replaced in for Eliphas.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 19, 2009, 08:17:22 PM
Quote
Question: Why is Suwako so clearly town? He attempted to defend VgT here and here and didn't really raise points against anyone except Pesco and the (now very likely Town) Kilga.
VgT's interactions with Suwako. It was obvious, at least to me, that VgT was trying to tunnel on non scum cases. I actually don't hate your Seniwac theory, but...I think you are scum as well so pardon me for having difficulty parsing it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 08:17:52 PM
Sodium "looks really good" by virtue of being the alternate case to a flipped scum.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 19, 2009, 08:27:30 PM
Sodium "looks really good" by virtue of being the alternate case to a flipped scum.
I assume you mean Suwako here, and there is the possibility that both were scum that has to be considered. Nevertheless, it is an unlikely scenario, and Serp's 'the only thing I did wrong is not vote VgT' feels pretty bad, considering that he was unusually inactive for D1. He's probably my secondary lynch behind Sodiphas.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 08:31:01 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a Day 1 scum/scum train duo in any game I've ever played.
It's mathematically possible, but that's about it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 08:31:19 PM
(And yes, I meant Suwako)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 19, 2009, 08:45:47 PM
Hihopyoko. Kilga's case on Serpentarius is pretty good but... we've got Angel Milk here who has ONE POST and that post talks up the train on me and talks down the train on VGT. Considering that we know the scum team was incompetent enough to let VGT go down... yeaaaaah
##Vote: Angel Milk
I still have my doubts on Kilga, in fact they're amplified by his picking Serpentarius as the case to champion today, but man talk about a day with low hanging lynch fruit.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Serp on September 19, 2009, 08:52:22 PM
Quote from: UncertainKitten
VgT's interactions with Suwako. It was obvious, at least to me, that VgT was trying to tunnel on non scum cases.
Since when in prodding an active lurker something that scum never do to their scumbuddies? I mean, when there's daytalk, they can do so privately and not risk calling attention to it, but on the other hand, it's a really easy transparent way to get towncred if the active lurker gets lynched and flips scum. Basically, it's a point that's so easy to fake that it's begging for WIFOM.
Quote from: Kilgamayan
Sodium "looks really good" by virtue of being the alternate case to a flipped scum.
Clearing someone based on their own actions is best. Clearing someone based on the actions of flipped scum is a little less reliable. Clearing someone based on the actions of the town at large is not a good idea. Your case should not depend on a scummy person flipping town.
As for my alleged lack of activity D1, I was just awake while you all were asleep. I would wake up, read through the pages of posts, and then post my own impressions. By the time the day was heating up, I was just going to sleep. See, I'm roleplaying my role too. :V
Cut by Suwako: I've never been one to criticize people for going for the low-hanging fruit. After all, there's a reason they're low-hanging. Furthermore, it is true that a D1 scum lynch implies a newbish scum team. I'll come back after everyone has made their D2 cases and prioritize my lynches then.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 19, 2009, 08:55:55 PM
Quote
Since when in prodding an active lurker something that scum never do to their scumbuddies? I mean, when there's daytalk, they can do so privately and not risk calling attention to it, but on the other hand, it's a really easy transparent way to get towncred if the active lurker gets lynched and flips scum. Basically, it's a point that's so easy to fake that it's begging for WIFOM.
But the thing is, there were so many tagets to choose from. If Suwako were scum, why not target Tenshi/Angel Milk? VgT was poking Suwako before the Suwa wagon started.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 08:57:10 PM
Clearing someone based on the actions of the town at large is not a good idea.
Why not?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 08:58:55 PM
And try to use examples relevant to the situation. I don't want hypotheticals that mean nothing to this particular game.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Nietz on September 19, 2009, 09:02:56 PM
By the thunder, VgT's flip pretty much sinks my case on pesco, lest there was some crazy superbussing going on.
I do be havin' some impreshuns (or lack o'em) from day 1, but me gots a party with some fellow bucaneers to attend, so methinks I be back to ye mateys only by tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 09:07:32 PM
It's also worth pointing out that Serp has opened today with a vote based on a Day 1 case whilst completely ignoring the flip and trains.
I would seriously like to see a case against Suwako founded in flips and trains, not worthless Day 1 opinions, because empirical evidence suggests it's outlandish to think Day 1 was a scum/scum train duo.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 19, 2009, 09:24:47 PM
I'll grant that a scum flip is the tool of choice when it's available
This makes my previous post all the more amusing.
Man, I really need to sit down and cover everything I can remember before I post. This is like the Mafia equivalent of premature ejaculation.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 19, 2009, 09:34:45 PM
My preferred case today is:
##Vote Anthony
Kilga throws on the first vote on Anthony at 5:25 EST wondering why Anthony is voting Pesco. Anthony drops his vote off Pesco at 5:34 EST. Other people pile onto Anthony real quick. VgT takes the time to quote Rou's vote at 5:40 EST with his offtangent about the WTC Mafia game. Post takes 3 minutes to post (see #53). I'm really only seeing such a quick action take place as VgT trying to defend a scumbuddy.
Then we have Anthony hold off on voting for a long time. Furthermore, Anthony kind of disregards the VgT case in #164 and votes Rou. Just to continue on, he unvotes Rou at #200, waffles a bit on thinking the VgT case is probably ok, and in his last post of #253, says he's leaning VgT, but votes Suwako instead for some rather bad reasons:
Mostly because of gut call on Pesco, and lack of good content, which annoied me, and also Rou's words
I'll reread Serp a little more to check up on that case and I'm not really fond of Serp's case on Suwako due to what I see as VgT voting Suwako and Anthony (who I think is Scum) also voting Suwako.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 19, 2009, 10:02:28 PM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Sodium on September 19, 2009, 10:06:56 PM
Anthony: Token Noob. Town most likely, based on some MindHax(tm), and the fact that I don't see scum stating that their reason for voting someone is to Bandwagon, nor do I see newbscum playing WIFOM games. Still, I can barely stand reading ANY of his posts. Awaiting Next Post
Kiro: Town, because he's Kiro. 8) But really, I see nothing wrong here.
Kilga: Read above.
Angel Milk: Hi Inactive Guy! And Read Suwako's post. Scummy.
Roukan: I like UK's case on you. Scummy. And how did Pesco bog VgameT down again?
Suwako: The bandwagon on him was basically "Not taking Day 1 seriously/not talking much? DIE!". Seriously, wtf? Leaning town on Suwako, but now that he got his flips he wanted, I want to see him use them.
Serp: Whoa, have you been taking notes from my performance last game? Scummy
Kitten4u:
Quote from: Kitten4u
So tl;dr: Umu's case is not strong, but he raises some good points that should be looked at.
-_- Pretty bad posts all around(191, 195, 213). Neutral due to switch to VgameT at the end of the day though. Awaiting next post.
Shinki dam there's a lot of people. These are the ones that stood out more or less. Next post for any others that stand out that I missed.
So basically... SCUM Edible Angel Milk Serp Roukan Kitten4u Anthony
##Vote Angel Milk Guy's not posting and scummy in the one actual post he had.
And I gtg somewhere now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 19, 2009, 10:14:52 PM
Hihopyoko. Kilga's case on Serpentarius is pretty good but... we've got Angel Milk here who has ONE POST and that post talks up the train on me and talks down the train on VGT. Considering that we know the scum team was incompetent enough to let VGT go down... yeaaaaah
##Vote: Angel Milk
I suppose the thing with Tenshi is that he seems almost too obvious. >_> Then again, given that, Town!Tenshi would logically have been easy prey for scum yesterday, and since no-one went for him... Basically, a Tenshi lynch seems fine enough if it comes to it.
Quote from: Serp
Your case should not depend on a scummy person flipping town.
Where does this come from?
Quote
And how did Pesco bog VgameT down again?
Wasn't it Pesco who sat and prodded him for ages over the deja vu thing?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 19, 2009, 10:17:58 PM
EBWOP: I'll ask UK one question. Why am I more suspicious to her than the other people who weren't on the VgT wagon? Because I was objecting to it louder?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 19, 2009, 10:20:02 PM
Quote
EBWOP: I'll ask UK one question. Why am I more suspicious to her than the other people who weren't on the VgT wagon? Because I was objecting to it louder?
Yesterday, I already had piggyback'd Umu's case on you and added my own points. I only set aside YOUR case because I wasn't gonna get your lynch. So I saw VgT was scummier than Suwako (to me), and was correct. You were rather loud about defending him, so against your already negative record...you got another VERY bad mark.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 19, 2009, 10:28:19 PM
Will you retards with no psychic abilities stop using my keywords. Mindhax can be backed up by laying out the thought process.
No reread, but I feel that since Suwako and VgT were fairly even on the wagons yesterday, latecomer scum would pile on to swing the pressure. Suwako gets a tentative clear for now.
By latecomers I'm talking about Tenshi and Anthony. Both with fuckall content and placed throwaway votes on Suwako. I am pretty pissed off at Tenshi in particular for not dropping in to mention the connection problems (which I am very doubtful of being real right now).
The Vgt case is first from a joke taken seriously, which led to his actions of anti-town, which I see now, this doesn't help too much for me since I sorta like having a bit more before I accuse someone, so overall I'm just leaning towards Vgt
Looks like reluctance to bus from my seat.
##Vote Anthony
K4U needs a lookover IMO [mindhax certified].
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 19, 2009, 10:33:33 PM
Overall the whole Tenshi/Angel Milk lurking entirely on day 1 and how it's going so far just bugs me to the point of me thinking he is scummy, but I'm not 100% sure with Rou's statment.
##Vote: Angel Milk
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 19, 2009, 10:39:18 PM
I'm pretty sure this is the second time you've decided that my opinion is enough to put you off. And you obviously aren't reading, given that later that post I basically said that the case against Tenshi was perfectly fine. You're doing one of two things here - looking for an excuse not to vote a buddy, or trying to link yourself to me, which is something that Townies have no reason (or need) to do.
Fine with going back to the Anthony lynch as well as Sodiphas, Serp or Tenshi. Jeez, we're really spoilt for choice today. :V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 19, 2009, 10:47:08 PM
Vote Count: I Should Probably Be Mowing The Lawn Roukanken (1) - UncertainKitten Serpentarius (1) - Kilgamayan Suwako Moriya (1) - Serpentarius Eliphas-->Sodium (1) - Roukanken Angel Milk (2) - Suwako Moriya, Sodium Anthony (2) - Kiro, Pesco
Not voting: Anthony, Kitten4U, Nietz, Zakeri, Angel Milk, Affinity
Whoops, fixed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 19, 2009, 10:56:54 PM
Can we have the lynch vote count appended to the relevant post.
You mean like L-7 or whatever?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 19, 2009, 11:00:10 PM
The final vote count at the time of lynch
Oh, that. Sure.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kitten4u on September 20, 2009, 12:43:21 AM
Finished rereading the thread. My top suspects have not changed. Anthony and Rou were hilarious to read with the VGT flip in mind.
##Vote Evil Magnum Anthony
VGT avoids commenting on Anthony at first (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89761#msg89761), and then he defends him (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89880#msg89880) multiple (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90017#msg90017) times (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90136#msg90136). Now Anthony starts defending VGT (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90251#msg90251) and the comments on Kilga look like a chainsaw defense. This is just weird. Agreeing with Kiro that it looks like he doesn't want to bus his buddy (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91923#msg91923)
So basically they defend each other (and Anthony does it with a chainsaw once) and Anthony votes Suwako despite saying that VGT looked worse. His actions yesterday were pretty scummy without the flip too, so he remains my top suspect for today.
---
Now for Rou
I'm reading this as "they're not going for an Anthony lynch so I'll poke someone else even though I have a better case on Anthony." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90636#msg90636)
His list o' lynch targets (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91508#msg91508) is weird too. VGT is on his list, but he's at the bottom and Rou sort of defends him.
And I love this one. UK asks him to point out VGT's "decent content," (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91955#msg91955) and Rou ragequits. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92023#msg92023) He never answers that question when he returns.
The blatant use of AtA makes me very uncomfortable. I still get the vibe that he wasn't using the "third person on the wagon" thing because of the idea behind it, but because he thought it would somehow convince the rest of the town to vote for Anthony.
So yeah, still leaning scum on Rou as well.
---
I like the case on Serp.
Kilga, why do you think Affinity looks good?
Rou's case on Sodium isn't terrible, but it feels a lot weaker than all the other cases brought forward (except for maybe Serp's case on Suwako).
I'm going to do another reread on Suwako later. Currently I'm leaning town on her due to the VGT flip, but her behavior was really weird and I don't really know how to deal with it.
Serp's case on Suwako is pretty meh.
Quote from: Sodium
-_- Pretty bad posts all around(191, 195, 213). Neutral due to switch to VgameT at the end of the day though. Awaiting next post.
What do you dislike about my posts?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 20, 2009, 12:55:34 AM
I don't think he looks GOOD, I think he looks the least villainous of those on the Suwako wagon. His vote for Suwako was early on, telegraphed by a couple of posts showing suspicion, and for different reasons than other people provided. This looks more like an honest townie mistake than any of the other Suwako votes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 12:58:36 AM
Kitten: Your case on me is sort of paradoxical. You say 'he's trying to avoid the Anthony case', then say 'he's coming up with bad reasons to get people to lynch Anthony'. Are you attacking me for pushing him and standing away, or for pushing him for bad reasons?
As for the VgT thing, I honestly thought that pressing people for information was a decent enough idea, and that's what VgT was doing - asking questions. That's what I thought his good content was, and it's why I overlooked his lack of a vote. I couldn't really think of a way to say it other than 'he's being useful'. -_-
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kitten4u on September 20, 2009, 01:12:25 AM
Quote from: Kilga
I don't think he looks GOOD, I think he looks the least villainous of those on the Suwako wagon. His vote for Suwako was early on, telegraphed by a couple of posts showing suspicion, and for different reasons than other people provided. This looks more like an honest townie mistake than any of the other Suwako votes.
Ah, okay.
Quote from: Rou
Kitten: Your case on me is sort of paradoxical. You say 'he's trying to avoid the Anthony case', then say 'he's coming up with bad reasons to get people to lynch Anthony'. Are you attacking me for pushing him and standing away, or for pushing him for bad reasons?
Where do I say that at all? The closest thing I can think of is the first link and the AtA stuff. I said that your switch to Suwako looked weird because I thought your case on Anthony looked better. It looked like you realized that the Anthony lynch wasn't going to happen, so you poked someone else.
If it's the use of AtA that you're refering to then yeah, that was bad. AtA is a logical fallacy. While your case on Anthony was good, the AtA bit was really, really bad and I find your use of it scummy. That one bad point didn't totally make your case on Anthony worthless though.
If it's something else...Uh I'm going to need the condesending explanation then.
Quote from: Rou
As for the VgT thing, I honestly thought that pressing people for information was a decent enough idea, and that's what VgT was doing - asking questions. That's what I thought his good content was, and it's why I overlooked his lack of a vote. I couldn't really think of a way to say it other than 'he's being useful'. -_-
Correct me if I'm wrong, but last game didn't you think that KGH only asking questions and not actually taking any stances bad?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Sodium on September 20, 2009, 01:22:52 AM
Kitten4u:
Quote from: 195
There is a reason my vote is on him right now. I'm not disagreeing with you there. It's just that using "the statistic says so" versus "this is why" looks like you were trying to use AtA, which I don't like.
I don't get this; I read this as you saying "Third on the bandwagon=evidence", which was proven wrong before that post.
Quote from: UK, 189
You do realize that that's a discredited tell, right? Precisely because it's in the wiki actually.
Tell me if you meant something else.
And 213 was basically "I don't get it to umu(later cleared up), and then a post re-read that consists of:
Quote
Eliphas seems to be playing like he did last game. I don't like it, but I have no idea what it means at this point since he was town last game. I'd like to hear some thoughts on what's been going on since you haven't posted for awhile.
Pesco's play seems similar to last game too. I see a lot of acusations thrown and a lot of questions being asked, but no real cases being made.
Which is basically "KGH and Pesco are similar to last game so META!, but wait, that doesn't mean anything for KGH, so why am I saying this?".
--- Anthony jumps onto a wagon! Well, at least this time he gives reasoning, although I would like him to have given more opinions on other people, instead of just one sentence on Angel Milk, and half of a vague sentence to Roukan. Lot's of info there.
Angel Milk needs to post, you know, some opinions. Quality ones, hopefully. And Angel Milk=Tenshi?
Kitten4u Cut:That would be me, who was scum. Either way, I thought that was one of the things town me would've done.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 01:31:58 AM
Where do I say that at all? The closest thing I can think of is the first link and the AtA stuff. I said that your switch to Suwako looked weird because I thought your case on Anthony looked better. It looked like you realized that the Anthony lynch wasn't going to happen, so you poked someone else.
Quote
If it's the use of AtA that you're refering to then yeah, that was bad. AtA is a logical fallacy. While your case on Anthony was good, the AtA bit was really, really bad and I find your use of it scummy. That one bad point didn't totally make your case on Anthony worthless though.
I have nothing to say other than that I honestly believed the 3rd on the wagon thing was worth considering, at least on Day 1.
Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but last game didn't you think that KGH only asking questions and not actually taking any stances bad?
By Day 4? Yes. On Day 1? No.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 01:37:34 AM
Where do I say that at all? The closest thing I can think of is the first link and the AtA stuff. I said that your switch to Suwako looked weird because I thought your case on Anthony looked better. It looked like you realized that the Anthony lynch wasn't going to happen, so you poked someone else.
There were two main reasons that I switched: - Anthony had already received a good deal of votes, so it wasn't like moving my vote was going to remove him from discussion. - In contrast, a lot of people had said that they didn't approve of Suwako's posting (or lack thereof), but no-one had had the patience to outright vote it. I felt someone had to change that to start discussion.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kitten4u on September 20, 2009, 01:43:33 AM
Quote from: Sodium
I don't get this; I read this as you saying "Third on the bandwagon=evidence", which was proven wrong before that post.
I was saying that the idea behind it was decent; that scum will jump onto bandwagons. The fact that he was third didn't really mean anything, it was simply the idea behind the statistic that I agreed wtih. The fact that he was relying more on the stat than the idea feels off.
Quote from: Sodium
Which is basically "KGH and Pesco are similar to last game so META!, but wait, that doesn't mean anything for KGH, so why am I saying this?".
Okay, I can see where you think that feels off. I'll blame it on me trying really, really hard to make sure I don't tunnel again.
Quote from: Sodium
Kitten4u Cut:That would be me, who was scum. Either way, I thought that was one of the things town me would've done.
I know that Rou nor KGH was scum that game. The question was "didn't you [Rou] think that KGH only asking questions versus having stances was bad?".
---
Cut by Rou
I'll drop the AtA thing for now since it looks like we'd just start repeating ourselves.
Quote from: Rou
By Day 4? Yes. On Day 1? No.
Then what exactly are you supposed to do with the questions you ask? I was under the impression that you asked questions so that you could have a better stance.
Quote from: Rou
There were two main reasons that I switched: - Anthony had already received a good deal of votes, so it wasn't like moving my vote was going to remove him from discussion. - In contrast, a lot of people had said that they didn't approve of Suwako's posting (or lack thereof), but no-one had had the patience to outright vote it. I felt someone had to change that to start discussion.
Hm...
I'm going to take another look at that wall. brb
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 01:58:07 AM
Question. Why are you talking so much now compared to D1?
I'll make another confession here - one of the reasons I didn't go for VgT as hard as I could was because Kilga was attacking him, and I was suspicious of Kilga for being so supportive of Suwako.
Quote
Then what exactly are you supposed to do with the questions you ask? I was under the impression that you asked questions so that you could have a better stance.
I assumed he needed time to come up with a decent enough suspect. Besides, in comparison Suwako had one stance which he didn't move from and basically didn't show any opinion on the remainder of the game besides 'you all suck', so it isn't like you're that much worse...
I was saying that the idea behind it was decent; that scum will jump onto bandwagons. The fact that he was third didn't really mean anything, it was simply the idea behind the statistic that I agreed wtih. The fact that he was relying more on the stat than the idea feels off.
I'll put this down to having played so many games using this tell that the stat was more or less rammed into my head.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 20, 2009, 02:30:23 AM
Doing the reread on Serp, I'm not sure if he's the right lynch today. Primarily because in his first serious post #168, he puts the 3rd vote on Anthony as opposed to the 5th vote on VgT. If Anthony is scum as well as VgT, I'm not certain why he would bring Anthony up as a runner up rather than the numerous other wagons that had only 2 votes on them (see Edible's count at #161 and factor in Anthony's vote onto Rou in #168).
I don't think disagreements people have with Serp's scumhunting philosophy (#222) is scummy bad. It's reasonable for a Townie to think that Suwako was Scum trying to WIFOM skirt by Day 1. Although the lack of mentioning VgT in that post is noticably bad. I do see Serp has put in a defense for his actions in #335. So-so imo, but lack of discussion about Anthony. Serp, what's your opinion about Anthony at the moment and is Suwako still more likely to be Scum over Anthony?
Overall, even if Anthony flips Scum, I wouldn't completely clear Serp's actions as his continued pursuit of Suwako is kinda meh at the moment. I think without looking at possible flips between Anthony and Serp, Anthony has a higher chance of being scum. His case on Angel Milk looks too lazy and probably the easiest case to go for in Day 2 regardless of alignment. It's really bad, but to meta Angel Milk a little bit, I can see Angel Milk being Townie and not putting as much effort into the game and make a wrong choice in choosing between VgT and Suwako. That's all we have to go on at the moment, and I see more evidence for Anthony.
Anthony: Who else do you think is Scum besides Angel Milk?
Regarding Rou: Argh, don't feel like doing the reread on him now. Frankly, my reasons for finding him suspicious on Day 1 were contingent upon Anthony possibly being Town. Since I think Anthony is Scum now, I'd like to see Anthony's flip first before reconsidering Rou. Because Rou will at least look better than Serp if Anthony flips Scum. And Rou being the very first vote on Suwako seems null. Granted he was trying to raise awareness about Suwako, but if Rou was Scum, there was no guarantee he'd get enough players in the game to actually press this wagon all the way to the top 2 no matter how bad Suwako's statements looked.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kitten4u on September 20, 2009, 02:42:08 AM
Quote from: Rou
Question. Why are you talking so much now compared to D1?
More time and people being on at the same time as me.
Quote from: Rou
I assumed he needed time to come up with a decent enough suspect.
Unfortunately, just about every question I can think of for this goes into "theory." I guess all I can say is that I disagree.
Quote from: Rou
Besides, in comparison Suwako had one stance which he didn't move from and basically didn't show any opinion on the remainder of the game besides 'you all suck', so it isn't like you're that much worse...
I'm certainly not defending Suwako's actions, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.
I reread the switch to Suwako wall. The defense makes sense, so I'll drop it for now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 20, 2009, 02:47:46 AM
You make me sad, Kiro. :( What about Serp's complete 180 from "We should use scum flips when we get them" to trying to completely undermine the foundation of using a scum flip to investigate while continuing a worthless Day 1 case makes his continued pursuit of Suwako "kinda meh" and not "holy shit this is bad"?
I have no problem with an Anthony lynch (or a Tenshi lynch, which I'd actually slightly prefer to an Anthony lynch), but come on now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 20, 2009, 03:12:12 AM
Also, to touch back on the subject of "What if VGT and Suwako were both scum?", I would like to point out that there was a time when VGT had 4 votes and Suwako had none. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Why was there a sudden influx of votes for Suwako, then? The logical conclusion is that scum would have been trying to save VGT, is it not? Why would scum try to save one buddy by pushing another to the forefront, and out of nowhere to boot? Why would they try to call attention to an somewhat attentionless buddy when they could have pushed cases on, say, Anthony or pesco or Tenshi or even Roukan? Even if they weren't 100% on the ball, why wasn't there any push on any of those people to save both VGT and Suwako? Ignoring VGT's in-between shot at Eliphas, there were seriously four (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90636#msg90636) consecutive (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91273#msg91273) Suwako (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91426#msg91426) votes (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91431#msg91431), with the next two votes after that being VGT (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91687#msg91687) and Suwako again (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91923#msg91923). Every other case was completely left in the dust. Where is scum team trying to push the lynch onto someone else? Shouldn't they be doing some sort of work to make sure there's at least ONE townie up for lynching?
Occam's Razor says that Suwako was the townie scum tried to set up for the alternative to VGT. The idea that one scum was sitting on top of the vote count and the response to this was a second scum shooting straight from the bottom to the top with no effort made to push anyone else is downright silly.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 20, 2009, 03:21:29 AM
Not voting: Anthony, Nietz, Zakeri, Angel Milk, Affinity
Votecounts reorganized to have those with the most votes on top.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 20, 2009, 03:34:17 AM
Well, while I'm also of the mind that Suwako is likely Town at the moment, and even more likely so if Anthony or even Tenshi flip Scum, I can see Town Serp still gunning for Suwako... barely. That's why I want Serp's comparison between Suwako and Anthony and Serp might as well toss his opinion of Tenshi into that mix too. I may adjust my opinion depending on the replies we get from these various people.
I still think VgT doing that off tangent comment about WTC Mafia and Anthony at the beginning is the most damning thing I've ever seen in Mafia. There is no reason for Scum VgT to stick his neck out for anyone so early and so spur of the moment unless it was a scumbuddy. If he was trying to gain Town cred and divert a Town Anthony mislynch, I think he would have voted one of the people who jumped onto Anthony in that same post. The only way this latter scenario comes into play is that VgT flubbed it up real bad; but Anthony's actions on his own are pretty damning in their own right.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 20, 2009, 03:36:29 AM
Forget gunning for Suwako in particular for a moment. You really think that TownSerp would go back on his earlier words about working off of scum flips? As opposed to, say, going "whoops, my bad" before using VGT's flip to find someone scummier than he is?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 20, 2009, 04:00:56 AM
Probably not, but that's for Serp to answer and provide a better explanation for his Day 2 Suwako vote and words. And thinking about it more, if Suwako were Scum who by chance got brought up wagon wise, Suwako optimally "should" have voted VgT rather than just throw it away on you. So I'm not quite following Serp's argument as to why Suwako throwing that vote away is indicative of Suwako being Scum.
Looks troubling enough. I don't mind your case but I'm not going to switch my vote unless something develops to push someone over Anthony.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 20, 2009, 04:25:34 AM
I personally agree with Suwako looking much more townie with the flip, since I don't see why scum would want to prop up Suwako instead of... say, Anthony which was another viable lynch if Suwako is scum himself. Of course, people can mislead, but I don't think that the misleading potential outweighs the practical benefits of trying to prop up another townie. Suwako calling the case on VgT stupid and voting for Kilga is really odd though, and the fact that he doesn't use the flips that he has been harping on D1 makes him seem a little strange. Don't think that he's a viable lynch for today though, but I want to see those contributions. Lastly, I don't like his actual posts either.
I don't like Anthony due to the chainsaw and the defense of VgT which wasn't called for at all, and VgT not liking the Anthony thing because 'he's a super easy lynch target', and actually using that to implicate Kilga because 'he started it'. He also didn't answer my question about how to catch such 'easy targets' properly. Lastly, this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89880#msg89880) which defends Anthony so much is really telling. So all in all, I agree with the case on Anthony. Going for Angel Milk is also rather dubious considering that he commented on no one else; except 'Rou's statement' which he just skirts.
##Vote: Anthony
---
@Rou:
Quote
Little contribution, waiting around to be the hammer on VgT
Why the latter? Doesn't seem fair if he was just a victim of circumstance on that point.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 20, 2009, 06:51:14 AM
Main reason I wanted to reread K4U was because I thought she voted Suwako. Turns out she didn't and only asked Suwako to post more. Meh null points for now.
Quote from: Sodium
Which is basically "KGH and Pesco are similar to last game so META!, but wait, that doesn't mean anything for KGH, so why am I saying this?".
So what does this mean for me?
Tenshi needs to deliver the post he promised 7 HOURS ago.
I need to look over Rou's lead up to his Suwako vote. That might provide me with a better opinion on him. Currently leaning Idiot.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kitten4u on September 20, 2009, 07:02:16 AM
Quote from: Pesco
So what does this mean for me?
I'm assuming this is directed at me. It basically means that I didn't find you particularly scummy, but I was definitely going to be keeping my eye on you. Now that VGT flipped scum I find it unlikely that you are scum as well.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 20, 2009, 08:38:28 AM
Was meant for Sodium, but your answer is fine too
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 20, 2009, 08:51:52 AM
##Vote: Serpentarius
Reasoning is mostly because we agree with Kilgamayan that not using scumflips to make new cases is very very bad when you say yourself that people should use scumflips to make new cases.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 20, 2009, 11:25:02 AM
People who voted Suwako and the post they did it in.
Brief notes: Rou - Talks about a whole bunch of other people but the vote is on Suwako. The way I see it, it launches the wagon with what was said about him getting too much of a pass.
Affinity - IIRC Affinity avoided VgT completely on Day 1. The back and forth between Affinity and Umu gives me the feeling that he'd have called for her NK if he was scum. His vote has better backing than Rou's.
Serp - Reasoning is pretty meh. I can see why even Sodium is laughing at you. Likely a throwaway vote on the wagon.
Zak - Possibly also a throwaway vote, but I recall Zak being more proactive about pushing Suwako prior to the vote. Though, I question why he chose to vote Suwako after all when he mentions a lot of agreeing with the case on VgT.
Anthony - Big hesitance to vote VgT and completely unoriginal waffle. I'm really hating the similarities he's got with Zengar wrt the 'waiting for more evidence'. Ties the wagons at L-4 apiece. This would be the one of the swing votes (K4U being the other on VgT instead).
VgT - Flipped scum. Obv a vote to save himself.
Tenshi - Hatefully little content when he claims to have read the thread. I want to reread him, not from what he's posted this game but from his previous game. He's a newb that doesn't know how to manipulate meta so the tells from there would still be fresh.
My vote on Anthony is still good.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 11:40:53 AM
Quote
Granted he was trying to raise awareness about Suwako, but if Rou was Scum, there was no guarantee he'd get enough players in the game to actually press this wagon all the way to the top 2 no matter how bad Suwako's statements looked.
Wait, what? There were nearly 48 hours left in the day phase when I made that vote. To say 'he did it because he knew there was little chance of Suwako getting voted by other people even if his posts were terrible' is a horrible line of thought.
Quote
I still think VgT doing that off tangent comment about WTC Mafia and Anthony at the beginning is the most damning thing I've ever seen in Mafia. There is no reason for Scum VgT to stick his neck out for anyone so early and so spur of the moment unless it was a scumbuddy. If he was trying to gain Town cred and divert a Town Anthony mislynch, I think he would have voted one of the people who jumped onto Anthony in that same post. The only way this latter scenario comes into play is that VgT flubbed it up real bad; but Anthony's actions on his own are pretty damning in their own right.
...But in that post, didn't VgT basically endorse the case on Anthony? Going on that I had done something similar as the godfather in a previous game? Honestly I don't see this as as strong a point either way as you do, so I'm calling null tell on it. Anthony's other actions speak for themselves.
Zak: Is that seriously all you're going to say on the matter? Really? No other opinions at all? T_T
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 20, 2009, 11:42:01 AM
Tenshi will lurk regardless. But delivers (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52677#msg52677) a post with content (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53308#msg53308) with some prompting.
I think this is pretty conclusive for lack of scumhunting this time round.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 20, 2009, 12:02:57 PM
Ok now, everyone is taking my opinion on Vgt, which was basically just me saying it was in a way, a crap case, then later saying it was at least decent, but then I felt more for suwako being scummy, which to me doesn't exactly look like a huge attempt at defending someone.
Now to actually state my case on angel milk better due to the fact that I was lazy before, I was voting angel milk due to the fact of the lack of posting so far, which that, combined with not being night killed shows that there is a possibility of angel milk being scum, since personally I wouldn't leave someone alone if they were being slient like this, so overall he just looks really scummy to me, also since my vote wasn't counted before, might as well put it up again.
##Vote:Angel Milk
The whole thing with me backing off of someone due to Rou's posts are mostly because I'm just trying to take that into account, which I am failing at, nothing more, nothing less.
Right now when looking this over, my go at suwako on D1 was a stupid idea, because from this standpoint it just shows more of a town look than scum, so suwako is clean by my look, especially since suwako is actually making some sense to me.
Overall, the people who look like scum to me are Angel milk due to silence and not getting night killed,and the only other one is pesco, just a gut feeling which I guess isn't really a good reason.
So yea, I'm focused on an Angel Milk lynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 20, 2009, 12:19:33 PM
Quote
Overall, the people who look like scum to me are Angel milk due to silence and not getting night killed
:facepalm:
Quote
and the only other one is pesco, just a gut feeling which I guess isn't really a good reason.
Gut doesn't come from nowhere. Speak up.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 20, 2009, 12:31:08 PM
and the only other one is pesco, just a gut feeling which I guess isn't really a good reason.
Gut doesn't come from nowhere. Speak up.
Overall it's most of the reasoning of me being reluctant on day 1 in 355 and a bit in 383, which was due to me not wanting to just randomly throw a vote and get more heat, which is probably a common reaction for people.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 20, 2009, 12:35:32 PM
Quote
Affinity - IIRC Affinity avoided VgT completely on Day 1. The back and forth between Affinity and Umu gives me the feeling that he'd have called for her NK if he was scum. His vote has better backing than Rou's.
I did talk about VgT briefly here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90220#msg90220)
Quote from: Anthony
The whole thing with me backing off of someone due to Rou's posts are mostly because I'm just trying to take that into account, which I am failing at, nothing more, nothing less.
Right now when looking this over, my go at suwako on D1 was a stupid idea, because from this standpoint it just shows more of a town look than scum, so suwako is clean by my look, especially since suwako is actually making some sense to me
... uh none of us has been NK'ed yet so everyone has an equal possibility of being scum. Furthermore why would you, as scum, want to kill Tenshi when he would probably be a top suspect the next few days due to the lack of posting? Furthermore, how is my rival, Suwako, making sense to you?
Quote from: Rou
...But in that post, didn't VgT basically endorse the case on Anthony? Going on that I had done something similar as the godfather in a previous game? Honestly I don't see this as as strong a point either way as you do, so I'm calling null tell on it. Anthony's other actions speak for themselves.
First of all, VgT has defended Anthony as can be seen from the beginning of the game. Secondly, what business do you have in defending Anthony at all? Lastly, can you answer my previous question?
@Suwako:
Where has your case on pesco gone to? What do you think of him now?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 01:33:00 PM
Secondly, what business do you have in defending Anthony at all?
So if I point out one piece in a case that doesn't make sense, I'm immediately defending the culprit? I pointed out that the one point Kiro made - the one with VgT's hasty deja vu response - didn't really make a lot of sense. I'm not making any effort to argue with the rest of the case - hell, I said later in that post that the rest of Anthony's actions spoke for themselves. I'm still ready to lynch him without objection based on his previous play, but I just felt that point was relatively nonsensical.
Quote
Furthermore, how is my rival, Suwako, making sense to you?
In retrospect. Kilga's already made the point that Suwako showed up as a second-place lynch pretty hastily behind VgT, and disregarding the flip now to hold on to D1 suspicions is pretty terrible. There's almost definitely scum on that wagon, and it's the early jumpers that look worse - in this case, Serp and Zak. Zak's lack of opinions on the wake of D2 besides VOTE SERP aren't helping.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Sodium on September 20, 2009, 01:45:14 PM
Anthony, I think you have the wrong idea on Night Kills. Night Kills are USUALLY caused by scum, and they USUALLY target people they want to die. Common sense really.
Pesco: I was more or less pointing out how Serp's first Day 2 post looks hilariously like mine from Communication Breakdance in a sense. "X IS STILL MY PRIME SUSPECT BECAUSE THE SCUM LYNCH DIDN'T MAKE HIM LOOK BETTER". Oh, and I was pointing out some post from Kitten4u(213) that was basically how I summarized it as.
Waiting for Serp to come back after looking at all the Day 2 cases, as he said he would.
Staying on Angel Milk because I think he's scum in front of me. Second choice for vote is Serp or Anthony.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 20, 2009, 02:18:52 PM
UncertainKitten needs to post.
Except she has to go to church first.
So, I'll be back later with that Serpy reread, and I'll try to reread D2.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 20, 2009, 02:46:13 PM
Oh, sorry Rou, I misunderstood, though I usually think that such things should be spoken of by the accused himself on policy, since you weren't accusing Kiro of anything. In any case, the other question was on why you said that Serp being around on the deadline was scummy. His presence could have been totally due to circumstance, and it doesn't seem like a very convincing "I agree with the case", even more out of place than Zak's.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 20, 2009, 05:38:29 PM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 20, 2009, 05:54:39 PM
I really don't want to do this but...I guess I better get into it and get it over with.
Incoming Wall, CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION (Oh shi- I'm Orin not Okuu)
I love how it takes til page 6 for Serpy to post any content.
So, let's read post 168: Pushes Anthony, pokes me. Kinda expected...telegraphs suwako, pokes Nietz for the same reason he pokes me...
Pokes VgT...I mean, overall, it's a well reasoned post, if a bit lacking at the end. I'll also state that if Anthony flips town, Serpy is more likely scum, and if Serpy flips scum, Anthony is more likely town.
174 is fair...
222 has more argument on gut clearing...and I see where Kilga sees "What the hell happened to VgT?"
I don't like it.
Doesn't post again til 308. I don't like this either. Slipping under the radar much?
The post itself tries to weakly justify a Suwako lynch over VgT, who mysteriously was absent from post 222...I don't like this, it's like he's only accepting VgTs lynch because it's probably inevitable.
Ready to hammer posts, etc.
Now we are on Day 2. Let me open another tab so I can do both Serpy and Day 2 analysis. So I'll be posting a catch up post after this:
335 is interesting. Regarding your 222 you also placed several people above him suddenly without justifying it well. Justification for Suwako is also pretty much at odds with using flips.
342 doesn't satisfy me as a counter (obviously). It also says "I'mma hang back and let others do the work" in my eyes.
ok...no more Serpy posts.
I have to read Rou, but a Serpy lynch would not be a bad thing either IMO.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 20, 2009, 05:54:50 PM
Day 2 anal:
Kilga and UK banter for the first page of it :P
Rou weakly defends, but to be fair he doesn't have a specific case to throw himself at. Just generalizations, which I will rectify in the post after this one since I want to reread Rou to compare Serpy to.
Rou feels odd for kinda waffling. "You have to consider it! but...it's unlikely..." what's unsaid is "...but if I can justify it I'm all aboard for mislynching Suwako"
Suwako is still useless. What's your conclusions relating to Umu? To VgT?
Nietz needs to post, lol :P
Kilga 347 is mostly on the mark.
Kiro is fair. I don't disagree with the Anthony case, I just think there are better targets. (long shot from my gut clear, I know). I'd like more opinions, but I'm certain I'll get them with his reread.
Sodium 351 starts off with a gut clear a little late for my tastes (I mean, after Anthony's actions...) It's at least succint, to the point...I'd like more meat but I think it's a good summary of the situation, even if I disagree with the conclusion. Not sure if want right now.
Rou 352...did you just pull too scummy to be scum? I don't buy it in Umineko, and I don't buy it here! Plus leggo my Eggo.
And it was pesco, but VgT wasn't answering well.
Quote
Will you retards with no psychic abilities stop using my keywords. Mindhax can be backed up by laying out the thought process.
Women's intuition then :P. Though I retracted it, so not very useful ne?
Pesco needs to provide that lookover then ^-^
Anthony 356 is so bad it's horrible. You have nothing else to say?
K4U 361 is well reasoned.
Rou 363 feels bad. Where does Kitten say that?
The problem with Kiro 370 is you assume Anthony scum before he's flipped. While it's entirely possible (and I wouldn't mind his lynch), I don't think it's good to clear Serp on that...but let me continue reading. Ok, the next paragraphs make up for it...I have to reread Rou before I pick which lynch I prefer.
Kiro 375. I technically could be accused of the same if Anthony flips scum. But I see your point...
Pesco 379 is fine (at least you somewhat followed through)
Quote
Affinity - IIRC Affinity avoided VgT completely on Day 1. The back and forth between Affinity and Umu gives me the feeling that he'd have called for her NK if he was scum. His vote has better backing than Rou's.
Perhaps I should reread him as well...
Agree with Rou 384 about Zak. Nothing?
Anthony 386 has AtE mixed in with content...but somewhat bad content. Why in the nine hells would ANYONE NK Angel Milk? He was lurking yesterday, and if he is town he's liable to be mislynched. And your reasons are TERRIBAD. Honestly...are you trying?
And that's D2. I would not mind Anthony or Angel Milk dying today. But I doubt they are both scum, and I want to look at Rou now. I'd rather Anthony bite the bullet over Angel Milk because something feels "easy target" here.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Nietz on September 20, 2009, 06:04:26 PM
Well I'm back, I'll write my opinions on rereads I've done so far and then I really need to go get some sleep.
First, Angel Milk: If anyone embodies anti-towness, it's him. Not only has he contributed with nearly nothing, but even in the case he is town, he's made of himself a very acceptable subject to vote for. He's the player I believe we all agree to hate (game-wise), and that in itself is enough to make me a little wary of people voting him as an easy way out. However, the little we did have from him was showing up to join Suwako's wagon with flimsy reasoning and a quick dismissal of VgT's case, which puts him in the suspect territory. On this subject:
I suppose the thing with Tenshi is that he seems almost too obvious. >_> Then again, given that, Town!Tenshi would logically have been easy prey for scum yesterday, and since no-one went for him...
What? By what logic would scum go after an largely uncooperative town that's likely to be wagoned the next day. It wouldn't make sense even to avoid a protect, considering how many player there were left.
Antohny: Rereading him D1, I still get the impression he is a townie newbie making mistakes, but considering I had a similar impression o VgT, I'm not so confident in that anymore. Plus, going all-out for Milk just because "he was not killed last night and feels scum to me" fits right in what I just said about Dairy Product.
Affinity: Pretty much avoided VgT except for one inconsequential exchange. Prods K4U and then votes Suwako and stays there, with little more than acknowledging there might case for the rest of the day. His D2 questioning seems good so far, though I don't agree in his point that VgT was fervently defending Anthony.
Serpentarius: Looks scummy in retrospect, for reasons that Kilgamayan as already presented. Namely, the timing of his vote in Suwako, as well as an apparent effort to keep the possibility of a VgT as a fall-back. His main reason for voting Suwako, basically that his behaviour was a Moriya Shrine Conspiracy to confuse us, looks a little off. Looking back a little it really feels more like an excuse to vote rather a reason.
Pesco: I've already mentioned that I don't have much of my D1 case left on him. I still don't like so much the way he played so far, but he's not on
Zakeri, K4U, Kiro I don't have much to comment for now, seem mostly townish at the moment.
Suwako looks better now, but I want to to see how her play develops.
I still still have to give another read to Rou, UK, Kilga and Eliphas/Sodium and see where I should place my vote (leaning Serpentarius at the moment). I'll see to it when I'm not so tired.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 06:20:47 PM
In any case, the other question was on why you said that Serp being around on the deadline was scummy. His presence could have been totally due to circumstance, and it doesn't seem like a very convincing "I agree with the case", even more out of place than Zak's.
It's the fact that for the entire day, more or less, he has VgT sitting as his secondary lynch, despite never bringing up his actions after his first few posts. It's all 'Suwako is terrible because of X,Y and Z, but I'm conveniently willing to hammer VgT if I need to'.
Quote
Rou feels odd for kinda waffling. "You have to consider it! but...it's unlikely..." what's unsaid is "...but if I can justify it I'm all aboard for mislynching Suwako"
The last time I brought up an unlikely scenario was accusing scumAlice in Worker's Union. And besides, in that post I actually did accept Kilga's point and drop my case on Suwako.
Quote
Rou 363 feels bad. Where does Kitten say that?
I read 361 as initially saying 'Rou misdirected away from Anthony onto Suwako' and then switching to 'Rou is doing his best to get Anthony lynched', which I thought was paradoxical.
Question for Zakeri - looking back over D1, you seemed relatively accepting of pretty much every suggested lynch. You say here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91431#msg91431) that Suwako, Anthony and VgT are all scummy. Why, then, did you choose Suwako over the other two, and were there any serious lynch suggestions yesterday that you didn't agree with? :/
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 20, 2009, 06:45:02 PM
Final wall for now. Roukanken. I'll do the Affinity rere later.
Post 50 declares end of RVS. Not good, but nothing I really care about
Arguments with pesco on page 3...not much scumhunting, not that there was much to do really
91 has the "irritation" stuff. Guess that third on the wagon for Anthony REALLY made him scummy
93 is fair
104 is fair
109 is a disagreement. And doesn't defend his strawman
Rou 112 is the third time I've seen "opinions on UK". For someone not voting me you sure talk a lot about me. It feels like a set up
ugh at 128. More on the "third on wagon". But he does telegraph Suwa hate
134 misread. You really have me on the brain...
140 is almost a waffle. But I've been known to do the same, so null tell. (You know, give people a chance to be awesome before voting them)
Oh hey, 149 kinda pushes a few people but maintains Anthony is the antichrist scummiest dude around
157 is the AtA that's bad.
183 telegraphs more Suwako hate. misinterprets pesco. I do agree the "third on the wagon", while a horrible point, is getting too much argument over your kinda sorta decent points. Starts the wagon on Suwako. This feels like the first post that goes outside of Suwa/Anthony/UK hate with a pinch of Kilga. Also, misses answering questions (thanks pesco)
I see what pesco means about the contradiction. Just how much of a tell was third on the wagon to you at that point would have been a good question.
188 answers the better question proposed above.
190 makes me laugh...sorry Rou. But interestingly enough Rou, you brought up a Suwa PR not too long before you voted him. Hmm...
Quote
Third on the wagon is more likely to be scum because they see a potential wagon and jump on it, right? Anthony claimed to be doing exactly that, word for word.
Why are you defending this after we already said it's bad?
210 misinterprets what I meant, but oh well. You really do have fair enough points on Anthony so you should probably be switching to him at this point as opposed to riding the Suwa ship
228 is the TERRIBAD SUSPICION LIST. I already fought with him over this. What I didn't ask was for him to back up his entire list, which he never did...
232 Rou fail, etc.
234 misreps me. defends VgT...
241 is more Rou fail defending VgT by attacking me.
I hear a chensaw starting up
Hardcore.
244...more VgT defense, attacking me...
How the hell did I not call chensaw before!
most of page 9 is me and Rou back and forth, but 255 requires further mention for strawmannery.
259 raegquit, and never gives me an answer. He can't defend VgT anymore.
I kinda feel bad for page 10 Rou...
296 feels like a field of straw.
Kilga is basically advocating succinctness, not shut up and do nothing approach. You accuse him of this however. Nicht gut.
303 feels bad as well, considering it's using the same bad framework for Kilga's arguments
334 is bad and Rou should feel bad. At least the start is. Not even TRYING to defend...
Piggyback on serp, poke Sodium.
338 waffle..
357 is fair on Anthony. Honestly, I'm not sure what Anthony's flip wrt you will mean
363 strawman
369 gives me a slight gripe about not having seen Rou use that "tell" before. But whatev
Rou does bring up fair points on Zak
I don't see that read of 361 but whatev. Also, this situation is a different kind of unlikely. This one has the power of VOTE HISTORY! *dun dun dun*
tl;dr version Ok, basically, Rou is more likely scum due to CHEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSAAAAAAAAW on me with VgT, Suwa over Anthony when one was a better case, and a lot of noise and avoiding answering questions.
I also agree that half this wall is probably unnecessary, but it shows you my thoughts so I'll keep it intact...sorry.
I'll keep my vote on Rou, willing to move to Anthony or Serpy if we need a lynch. Also Angel Milk, but less so. Will reread Affinity sometime in the distant future, hopefully before D2 ends.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 07:00:11 PM
Rou 112 is the third time I've seen "opinions on UK". For someone not voting me you sure talk a lot about me. It feels like a set up
I saw you as the other big point of discussion at the time, given that I didn't like your gutclear of Anthony so early on. That's why I felt that it was worth talking about you so much.
Quote
Quote
Third on the wagon is more likely to be scum because they see a potential wagon and jump on it, right? Anthony claimed to be doing exactly that, word for word.
Why are you defending this after we already said it's bad?
Because I was trying to explain why I did it. It had become so automatic after several games that I sort of memorised the meta without thinking what it meant. >_>
Quote
228 is the TERRIBAD SUSPICION LIST. I already fought with him over this. What I didn't ask was for him to back up his entire list, which he never did...
A list of reasoning for six different people on Day 1 is sort of a lot to expect.
Quote
234 misreps me. defends VgT...
241 is more Rou fail defending VgT by attacking me.
I hear a chensaw starting up
Hardcore.
244...more VgT defense, attacking me...
How the hell did I not call chensaw before!
I mentioned one point which I saw as a backstep, but in retrospect I realised I screwed up horribly on. I have a terrible habit of never letting a point go no matter how badly the argument is going for me, and it showed here. >_>
Quote
Kilga is basically advocating succinctness, not shut up and do nothing approach. You accuse him of this however. Nicht gut.
His wording of it, taken straight from here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92452#msg92452), was 'choosing instead to wait for solid information to work off of'. Given that on Day 1 there is no solid information...
Quote
334 is bad and Rou should feel bad. At least the start is. Not even TRYING to defend...
Is it a better move for Town to waste time getting caught up in defending themselves or to move forward and hunt? Townies don't redeem themselves through explaining their mistakes, they redeem themselves by catching scum.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 20, 2009, 07:04:01 PM
Quote
Is it a better move for Town to waste time getting caught up in defending themselves or to move forward and hunt? Townies don't redeem themselves through explaining their mistakes, they redeem themselves by catching scum.
That's rather funny because you've spent a lot of time arguing about your own points and not much in finding scum.
You also acknowledge that you don't like dropping a losing cause, so being self-aware of it, I expect you to shape up.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 20, 2009, 07:09:39 PM
Quote
A list of reasoning for six different people on Day 1 is sort of a lot to expect.
Attacking 6 people on Day 1 without reasoning is not a good idea then, is it?
Quote
I mentioned one point which I saw as a backstep, but in retrospect I realised I screwed up horribly on. I have a terrible habit of never letting a point go no matter how badly the argument is going for me, and it showed here. >_>
I have a statement I'd usually apply here but it comes off as bitchy so I'll spare it. I'm just going to say it won't clear you.
Quote
His wording of it, taken straight from here, was 'choosing instead to wait for solid information to work off of'. Given that on Day 1 there is no solid information...
I'd like him to explain this one then.
Quote
Is it a better move for Town to waste time getting caught up in defending themselves or to move forward and hunt? Townies don't redeem themselves through explaining their mistakes, they redeem themselves by catching scum.
Fair. Quite fair actually. I retract that statement. But there is the fact that you got rather caught up earlier :P
I still can't really forgive the CHEEEEEEEEEEEENSAW and I don't see any scummier alternatives, with the possible exception of Anthony (then again, I don't like his wagon despite liking the reasons...I think I may want to reread him as well though I think I know what I'll see)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 07:13:57 PM
That's rather funny because you've spent a lot of time arguing about your own points and not much in finding scum.
There isn't much I can say that hasn't already been produced by other people - Sodium hasn't made any effort to defend himself, but he has real life as an excuse for now so I can't really press on that. I'm questioning Zak at this point as well since despite also being awkwardly placed on the Suwako wagon yesterday he's jumped onto Serp today without so much as a second thought.
Quote
You also acknowledge that you don't like dropping a losing cause, so being self-aware of it, I expect you to shape up.
This is where I get confused, though. I get frightened than admitting 'okay I'm wrong' is worse than arguing the point to its conclusion, so yeah.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 20, 2009, 11:02:51 PM
When exactly is Tenshi due for a prod, anyway? He hasn't posted for the whole day. >_>
Good point.
He's been prodded.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 20, 2009, 11:25:55 PM
Quote from: Rou
It's the fact that for the entire day, more or less, he has VgT sitting as his secondary lynch, despite never bringing up his actions after his first few posts. It's all 'Suwako is terrible because of X,Y and Z, but I'm conveniently willing to hammer VgT if I need to'.
Oh okay, misinterpreted again, I guess; so your case is the same as Kilga's.
---
@Nietz
Personally I feel a kind of weird dynamic over Nietz's posts about Anthony and Angel Milk. On D1, Nietz did defend VgT and Anthony to some extent and was wary of scum voting them due to them being easy targets, which is the very basis of his pesco vote, but his recent post here on D2 more or less does the same thing with Angel Milk, except that he accentuates the negative, thinking that he's anti-town, and yet still wary of people voting him for that. Why?
Also, how, in your view, do you differentiate a newbie bewildered by all these posts and posting bad content, to a newbie posting bad content more regularly? Their mistakes are mostly the same variety, so how is Angel Milk more scummy than Anthony in this regard?
Lastly, I don't particularly like how VgT's flip affects your view of playstyles and Anthony for this game, seeing that you supposedly had a larger body of evidence saying that newbies were often mislynches, this kind of makes you feel like some compulsive gambler. Gives an air of inconsistency about your playstyle which I don't really endorse; this is bad for the crops.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Sodium on September 20, 2009, 11:45:25 PM
Roukan: How am I supposed to defend against a confirmed scum supposedly bussing me, when I wasn't here? >_>
Aaaaand nothing really new happened. Except for a new Nietz case by Affinity. Need a new post from Serp, Tenshi, and Anthony. Oh, Suwako would be nice too.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 12:09:02 AM
Roukan: How am I supposed to defend against a confirmed scum supposedly bussing me, when I wasn't here? >_>
Do what I'm doing to make up for D1 - scumhunt. Press people, ask questions, don't just report and ask for content like you've been doing so far. T_T
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 21, 2009, 12:33:08 AM
Just skimmed the thread. I'm chilling at a LAN center as internet at home isn't working. Maybe I'll get in a better post by tonight or tomorrow at work.
Not much to comment on, except not liking Anthony's justification for the Tenshi lynch at the moment. Scum are not going to NK ambiguously scummy targets unless they suspect/determine he's a dangerous power role.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Serp on September 21, 2009, 12:49:10 AM
Apologies for the long delay since my last post; my sleep schedule is in the process of being rotated back around to something approaching normal.
Quote from: Kilgamayan
It's also worth pointing out that Serp has opened today with a vote based on a Day 1 case whilst completely ignoring the flip and trains.
I would seriously like to see a case against Suwako founded in flips and trains, not worthless Day 1 opinions, because empirical evidence suggests it's outlandish to think Day 1 was a scum/scum train duo.
Did you miss the part where I accused Suwako of purposefully going out of his way to avoid connecting himself to any potential scum flips in the first place? This is exactly why I considered his play suspicious. Making cases from scum flips is great when it's an available option, but when someone goes out of his way to make that technique impossible to use against him, I think that's strong evidence in itself.
As to the likelihood of two scum trains running side by side, it's statistically unlikely, but only in the sense that a randomly chosen bandwagon is statistically unlikely to yield a scum flip. Considering how flagrantly Suwako had just brushed everyone off, I would've been more surprised if he didn't draw a bunch of kneejerk votes, regardless of his alignment. I don't think that the Suwako wagon suddenly shooting up was a scummy development. If Suwako flips town, then the people who jumped on the wagon late may well have been doing so to save VgameT, but I don't really think that Suwako will flip town in the first place, so the point is moot.
Alright, as for how I'd order Suwako, Angel Milk, and Anthony, I should also point out that if Suwako flips scum, then we'll have confirmation that late D1, the other scum were basically faced with a choice of which scumbuddy to bus, which will change the way we need to look at all their actions. It wouldn't clear anyone, but if he is scum, then we're basically chasing shadows and falling for scum's WIFOM game by looking for who jumped on his wagon late.
However, if Angel Milk is scum, that would virtually clear Suwako, and sink my theory. So, as far as infolynches go, Angel Milk is superior to Suwako. Furthermore, what Suwako has been doing explicitly and openly, Angel Milk has been doing covertly. I guess I wouldn't expect Angel Milk to consciously decide to play that way, but I wouldn't expect anyone to consciously try that gambit in the first place, and I suppose I could see Angel Milk's scumbuddies telling him to lie low and avoid saying anything incriminating, which he could well interpret as saying nothing at all. :V
As for where Anthony fits into this, I think Kiro's making a mountain out of a molehill regarding the early fiasco with VgameT's recollection of an old game. Looks more like a three stooges reenactment than a chainsaw defense. His decision to wait for "better proof" in 200 looks bad, but is consistent with his newbish mindset, and even if Suwako were town, his vote in 253 could just be bad judgement. Pretty much all of his reasoning is horrible, which means it's hard to discern whether his points are coming from a town or a scum perspective, but that just makes him a viable policy lynch.
##Unvote ##Vote: Angel Milk
My lynch priorities are Angel Milk, then Suwako, then Anthony.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 21, 2009, 12:58:37 AM
However, if Angel Milk is scum, that would virtually clear Suwako, and sink my theory. So, as far as infolynches go, Angel Milk is superior to Suwako.
How does an Angel Milk lynch clear Suwako, precisely? I'm missing this one.
Quote
As to the likelihood of two scum trains running side by side, it's statistically unlikely, but only in the sense that a randomly chosen bandwagon is statistically unlikely to yield a scum flip. Considering how flagrantly Suwako had just brushed everyone off, I would've been more surprised if he didn't draw a bunch of kneejerk votes, regardless of his alignment. I don't think that the Suwako wagon suddenly shooting up was a scummy development. If Suwako flips town, then the people who jumped on the wagon late may well have been doing so to save VgameT, but I don't really think that Suwako will flip town in the first place, so the point is moot.
The point is that wagons are not chosen randomly. If VgT was sitting on a lot of votes then scum would've jumped at the chance to find someone else to attack, and after the Suwako case emerged they would have flown on. It's the timing that makes it look sort of weird - the fact that there are 4 straight Suwako votes when before he'd been on nothing. Feels awfully co-ordinated. (I'll note though that they apparently didn't choose Anthony as an alternate lynch, which is very interesting in terms of what it reads into his affiliation...)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 01:13:56 AM
EBWOP: What irritates me about this post is you just say 'I don't think Suwako suddenly getting four straight votes is suspicious' and don't go into any detail about WHY.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Serp on September 21, 2009, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: Roukanken
How does an Angel Milk lynch clear Suwako, precisely? I'm missing this one.
Firstly, the fact that Angel Milk was late on the Suwako wagon - since a VgameT lynch was looking more plausible, and if he really did have a choice between bussing him or Suwako, it'd be foolish not to jump on VgameT to get the towncred for swinging the lynch towards scum, instead of incurring suspicion for trying to swing the town away from scum (and towards another scum, but we wouldn't know that). I don't expect that Angel Milk would think all this through, but if he's bussing anyone in the first place, it'd only be due to his scumbuddies' advice.
More recently, Suwako is the one who led the charge on Angel Milk today, when he could easily have gone after several others, which means that both of them have made attempts to get each other lynched. That's pretty strong evidence against scumbuddiship.
Quote from: Roukanken
EBWOP: What irritates me about this post is you just say 'I don't think Suwako suddenly getting four straight votes is suspicious' and don't go into any detail about WHY.
Only three votes - yours was there in the first place, though you confirmed it after Suwako's post. And let me put it this way: When you saw Suwako's post, the first thing you did was decide that he was scummiest. If you can excuse yourself doing so, then why do you think it's strange for three more people, among those who saw it in between your post and UncertainKitten's combo breaker, to decide that it made Suwako scummiest too?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 21, 2009, 02:44:07 AM
I don't like how Rou is talking about '4 straight votes' on Suwako from an outsider's point of view when, uhh, in fact he has been the first one to vote Suwako anyways. Previous post really just screams arrogance and echoing what Kilga said blindly without any real analysis on his part of the story at all. Considering this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg93880#msg93880) he made, where he questions why Suwako is town, makes his views seem ephremeral and contradictory. Using that to question Serp is also quite bad of him.
Furthermore, pesco is right in that Rou hasn't really been scumhunting. More of passive questioning and defending, and the content he puts out is disproportionate to the number of posts he made. Also, absolutely no comment on Sodium's suspicion list and such, making the vote seem like a placeholder for opportunistic jumping. All of this, added on to UK's case, as well as the very hypocrtical 'scumhunt like I do' prod to Sodium makes him very suspicious and worthy of vote.
##Unvote ##Vote: Roukanken
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 21, 2009, 02:52:44 AM
I would post more but uhh... nothing has really changed today. Only thing to say isn't really internally related - in five days of active game, Angel Milk has essentially one post. That really oughta be modkill territory, not prod territory. If not modkilled, I still think that's the best lynch today, otherwise I'm down with Anthony or Serpentarius or any of the other people that make my head ache. I don't think "stupid townie mistakes" defenses fly here; since the scum team dropped the ball day 1 it seems reasonable to assume that they're pretty bad and/or not playing too hard.
The real danger comes in the possibility of one good scum throwing all their buddies to the winds here, but that's something we'll have to deal with lategame if the situation arises.
I considered a modkill of Angel Milk, but he is technically staying within the bounds of activity. As my solutions are somewhat final, I will leave it to the players to decide what to do with him unless absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 21, 2009, 03:04:10 AM
So Serp continues to fight the idea of using a scum flip to scumhunt and completely misses the point on the sudden Suwako train - the fact that no other case was pushed by anyone anywhere else (aside from VGT's pointless Seniwac vote).
Yeah I'm pretty comfortable leaving my vote where it is.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 21, 2009, 03:25:53 AM
@Suwako:
What happened to the pesco case?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 21, 2009, 04:21:52 AM
Dropped, like bad beginning of day 1 cases should be, why are you so obsessed with it?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kitten4u on September 21, 2009, 04:33:55 AM
@Serp How would an Angel Milk lynch give us any more info than a Suwako lynch would?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Hououin Kyouma on September 21, 2009, 04:47:02 AM
I need to be replaced
Good thing nothing seriously big happen
I don't know if I should post this but I think Rou is a cop for these following reasons. First of all he voted for Seniwac who isn't playing anymore which might mean that Edible gave out Seniwac instead of Sodium who is his replacement. Secondly he could have voted someone who is much more scummy yet he didn't. Also he was the first one to post on the second day. If my calculation are correct then Sodium should be scum.
##Vote:Sodium
Suwako: I found you and VtG equally suspicious. If somehow you got lynched and you were a townie and VtG survived I would have voted for VtG.
Also what do you have to say about a scum being lynched on the first day? Personally I never thought it would happen >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 04:54:46 AM
Dropped, like bad beginning of day 1 cases should be, why are you so obsessed with it?
Speak up. I can't hear you over the silence.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 21, 2009, 05:07:40 AM
Quote
First of all he voted for Seniwac who isn't playing anymore which might mean that Edible gave out Seniwac instead of Sodium who is his replacement.
What the hell are you talking about. Look at any votecount on D2. Any.
---
Quote from: Suwako
Dropped, like bad beginning of day 1 cases should be, why are you so obsessed with it?
Won't take that as an answer. For what reason? Seeing that you stuck so closely on it on D1 and had the guts to call every other single case on D1 stupid makes me think that you have a seemingly very strong justification for your vote on D1. Also, just because he was on the VGT bandwagon doesn't cut it because, uh, you are still suspicious of Kilga.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Hououin Kyouma on September 21, 2009, 05:12:32 AM
##Vote: Eliphas/Seniwac/Whatever His Name Is Right Now
>_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 21, 2009, 05:32:00 AM
... okay, but seriously now, Angel's getting modkilled right? It's not possible to have a fair replacement this far into the game with town taking these attitudes.
For what reason did I drop it? Uh, are you serious? We have a scum flip.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 21, 2009, 06:21:48 AM
Alright, as for how I'd order Suwako, Angel Milk, and Anthony, I should also point out that if Suwako flips scum, then we'll have confirmation that late D1, the other scum were basically faced with a choice of which scumbuddy to bus, which will change the way we need to look at all their actions. It wouldn't clear anyone, but if he is scum, then we're basically chasing shadows and falling for scum's WIFOM game by looking for who jumped on his wagon late.
However, if Angel Milk is scum, that would virtually clear Suwako, and sink my theory. So, as far as infolynches go, Angel Milk is superior to Suwako. Furthermore, what Suwako has been doing explicitly and openly, Angel Milk has been doing covertly. I guess I wouldn't expect Angel Milk to consciously decide to play that way, but I wouldn't expect anyone to consciously try that gambit in the first place, and I suppose I could see Angel Milk's scumbuddies telling him to lie low and avoid saying anything incriminating, which he could well interpret as saying nothing at all. :V
As for where Anthony fits into this, I think Kiro's making a mountain out of a molehill regarding the early fiasco with VgameT's recollection of an old game. Looks more like a three stooges reenactment than a chainsaw defense. His decision to wait for "better proof" in 200 looks bad, but is consistent with his newbish mindset, and even if Suwako were town, his vote in 253 could just be bad judgement. Pretty much all of his reasoning is horrible, which means it's hard to discern whether his points are coming from a town or a scum perspective, but that just makes him a viable policy lynch.
Kilga already provided a perfectly clear reason as to why Suwako can be considered cleared. My speculation on the matter is that we lynched goon, the other train if it was a bus, would have to have also been on a goon. But that would raise the question of why bus a (subjectively) better player and keep the weaker one around.
The only info we are getting out of lynching Tenshi is on Suwako. Assuming Suwako as town, a TownTenshi flip adds discredit, a point which you are not mentioning and taking into consideration before us.
Why is Anthony asking for better proof consistent with a newbie mindset? This only indicates hesitance, it has nothing to do with skill level. As I see it, more evidence was brought forth on VgT than Suwako. If he was really voting according to evidence, he should not have been jumping on Suwako as a swing vote (he was 5th when the wagons were tied at 4 each).
With this, I'll endorse a Serp lynch if Anthony doesn't hang.
Quote from: Nietz 397
Pesco: I've already mentioned that I don't have much of my D1 case left on him. I still don't like so much the way he played so far, but he's not on
I don't like the way you've been playing either. I wasn't the only one (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90333#msg90333).
I don't like how Rou is talking about '4 straight votes' on Suwako from an outsider's point of view when, uhh, in fact he has been the first one to vote Suwako anyways. Previous post really just screams arrogance and echoing what Kilga said blindly without any real analysis on his part of the story at all. Considering this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg93880#msg93880) he made, where he questions why Suwako is town, makes his views seem ephremeral and contradictory. Using that to question Serp is also quite bad of him.
This. I already mentioned here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94534#msg94534) that Rou's vote had the kickstart effect. I'll say now that I tend to give Rou more slack due to personal knowledge of him, that prompted me to say this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91731#msg91731). Without the personal bias, Rou should die.
I don't know if I should post this but I think Rou is a cop for these following reasons. First of all he voted for Seniwac who isn't playing anymore which might mean that Edible gave out Seniwac instead of Sodium who is his replacement. Secondly he could have voted someone who is much more scummy yet he didn't. Also he was the first one to post on the second day. If my calculation are correct then Sodium should be scum.
##Vote:Sodium
Suwako: I found you and VtG equally suspicious. If somehow you got lynched and you were a townie and VtG survived I would have voted for VtG.
Also what do you have to say about a scum being lynched on the first day? Personally I never thought it would happen >_>
You are a
******* ******
. I know you are capable of reading. SO. BLOODY. WELL. DO. IT.
Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.
... okay, but seriously now, Angel's getting modkilled right? It's not possible to have a fair replacement this far into the game with town taking these attitudes.
For what reason did I drop it? Uh, are you serious? We have a scum flip.
Answer Affinity. You've been just as bad as Anthony and Tenshi, that's a pretty big disappointment considering who you are.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 21, 2009, 09:21:05 AM
First off I'm sticking with Angel Milk lynch due to just not trying, as I have said before, also just to quickly bring something up,
Overall the whole Tenshi/Angel Milk lurking entirely on day 1 and how it's going so far just bugs me to the point of me thinking he is scummy, but I'm not 100% sure with Rou's statment.
Ok now, everyone is taking my opinion on Vgt, which was basically just me saying it was in a way, a crap case, then later saying it was at least decent, but then I felt more for suwako being scummy, which to me doesn't exactly look like a huge attempt at defending someone.
Now to actually state my case on angel milk better due to the fact that I was lazy before, I was voting angel milk due to the fact of the lack of posting so far, which that, combined with not being night killed shows that there is a possibility of angel milk being scum, since personally I wouldn't leave someone alone if they were being slient like this, so overall he just looks really scummy to me, also since my vote wasn't counted before, might as well put it up again.
##Vote:Angel Milk
The whole thing with me backing off of someone due to Rou's posts are mostly because I'm just trying to take that into account, which I am failing at, nothing more, nothing less.
Right now when looking this over, my go at suwako on D1 was a stupid idea, because from this standpoint it just shows more of a town look than scum, so suwako is clean by my look, especially since suwako is actually making some sense to me.
Overall, the people who look like scum to me are Angel milk due to silence and not getting night killed,and the only other one is pesco, just a gut feeling which I guess isn't really a good reason.
because for some reason my vote isn't being counted so please notice it this time
##Vote: Angel Milk
and now to actually make reasoning out of all of this, Suwako is already cleared to me due to overall actions recently, while I just would prefer getting rid of Angel Milk due to overall inactivity and lack of even trying to scumhunt, which I know seems hypocritical of myself, but I'm at least trying here (and from your reactions failing at it), the Serp case in my eye looks like a decent case due to the starting of it based on serp going at Suwako based on a D1 case, which in previous posts, has been mentioned to be a lackluster reason, which is making Serp second on my list.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 09:22:49 AM
Quote
Firstly, the fact that Angel Milk was late on the Suwako wagon - since a VgameT lynch was looking more plausible, and if he really did have a choice between bussing him or Suwako
This is still running off of the premise that the lynches yesterday didn't, y'know, already clear Suwako.
Plus VgT had been the leading lynch for almost the whole day, so saying his lynch looked more plausible doesn't make sense.
Quote
Only three votes - yours was there in the first place, though you confirmed it after Suwako's post. And let me put it this way: When you saw Suwako's post, the first thing you did was decide that he was scummiest. If you can excuse yourself doing so, then why do you think it's strange for three more people, among those who saw it in between your post and UncertainKitten's combo breaker, to decide that it made Suwako scummiest too?
Was it bad enough to earn my vote for the sake of creating some sort of pressure on him? Yes. Was it bad enough for people to suddenly disregard secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and suddenly reduce Day 1 to a 2-lynch race? No.
Quote
Furthermore, pesco is right in that Rou hasn't really been scumhunting. More of passive questioning and defending, and the content he puts out is disproportionate to the number of posts he made. Also, absolutely no comment on Sodium's suspicion list and such, making the vote seem like a placeholder for opportunistic jumping. All of this, added on to UK's case, as well as the very hypocrtical 'scumhunt like I do' prod to Sodium makes him very suspicious and worthy of vote.
The two people I've been trying to question - Sodium and Zak - have said more or less NOTHING, so obviously I can't contribute. Sodium's list did nothing to change my opinion, since it seemed hastily put together and introduced nothing new, and since then he's been doing very little other than reporting and asking people to post. Zak has thrown a vote on Serp today and done absolutely nothing else.
Quote
I don't know if I should post this but I think Rou is a cop for these following reasons.
1. All of these reasons make no sense. 2. Even if they did, WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU OUTRIGHT TELL THE MAFIA WHO YOU THINK IS A POWER ROLE? 3. HOW DOES THIS HELP US FIND SCUM IN ANY WAY?
Quote
I already mentioned here that Rou's vote had the kickstart effect. I'll say now that I tend to give Rou more slack due to personal knowledge of him, that prompted me to say this. Without the personal bias, Rou should die.
I intend to defend this point, because it makes sense. At the time I voted him to create some sort of pressure, but the response was too strong to be targeting a scum, especially since there was already VgT receiving several votes. I don't understand why being first on the wagon immediately makes me unable to say that people jumped on the wagon too quickly for my liking.
Zak needs to say something. Sodium needs to post less useless crap. Now I need to run to my first lecture, so yeah. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 21, 2009, 09:37:05 AM
Rou: Regarding your #384, I am agreeing that you as Scum would have no idea that pushing for a Town Suwako lynch from scratch would actually lead to anything no matter what Suwako had said. To try to set up a mislynch to counter the VgT wagon, it would be easier for Scum Rou to hype up one of the existing cases that had 2 or so votes on them already. I don't see why Scum couldn't have gone for one of the already established wagons which is why I'm thinking the earlier Suwako votes may have been from Townies. Unless some of the other prominent Day 1 wagons were also Scum, but that info will be considered later.
The point VgT made in #53 is him saying that someone buckling under questioning has happened before putting doubt on whether it's really that strong of a scumtell. Then he waffles a bit and says that it was Scum doing it. I just feel the whole intent of this post was to try to get people to slow down on the votes and doubt whether the case on Anthony was a good idea or not. So I'm seeing it as a partial defense of Anthony. The other option was to remain silent on the issue which would probably have served him better given this whole thing was what led to his Day 1 lynch. And for my personal amusement, "Except you were on the other side," actually could be a VgT scum slip in saying that Rou's actually Town in this game as opposed to the godfather in WTC Mafia. *shrug*
---
Anthony should reevaluate his cases if Angel Milk is going to either be replaced or modkilled. I'd like to hear what he says and whether he will pursue his gut suspicion on Pesco more.
Making cases from scum flips is great when it's an available option, but when someone goes out of his way to make that technique impossible to use against him, I think that's strong evidence in itself.
Really? Is that what you're seeing after the VgT flip? That pretty much is ignoring said flip as it assumes Suwako is guilty regardless of alignment when VgT's alignment should have some bearing on Suwako's given their wagons ran side by side. In essence, you made up your mind since before Day 1 ended. That's not what I expected you to say as Town.
His decision to wait for "better proof" in 200 looks bad, but is consistent with his newbish mindset, and even if Suwako were town, his vote in 253 could just be bad judgement. Pretty much all of his reasoning is horrible, which means it's hard to discern whether his points are coming from a town or a scum perspective, but that just makes him a viable policy lynch.
Is that you talking about Angel Milk or about Anthony?
It's Anthony, but it sure looks like it could be referring to Angel Milk.
Tell me again how Angel Milk is first and Anthony is 3rd on your preferred lynch order? If you're saying for information purposes, Angel Milk is better than Suwako, wouldn't an Anthony scum flip also lead to the same conclusion about Suwako? The first part of your #418 is also interchangable between Angel Milk and Anthony. This looks like pretty poor prioritization as there's more actual evidence of Anthony's to sort through and should outweigh Angel Milk's now-confirmed apathy for this game. In essence, I don't see how you think Angel Milk is more likely to be Scum than Anthony.
Cut by Anthony: Edible missing your vote once could be mod error. Missing it twice is far less likely to be an error. If Edible doesn't clear it in the next votecount, I'm guessing a power role is in effect here. Frankly, I don't think it makes a difference in your innocence or not. If such power role were Townie, it could be because they think you're Scum and don't want you voting for what would likely be a Townie. Similarly, Scum with such a role could just be trying to WIFOM everyone into thinking that they wouldn't use it one of their own. The entire Scum team is never required to be on a mislynch wagon as it reduces the number of arising mislynch possibilities. And I see Serp is now #2 on your list. Any new thoughts about Pesco?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 21, 2009, 09:48:04 AM
@Roukanken:
[Q&UOTE]The two people I've been trying to question - Sodium and Zak - have said more or less NOTHING, so obviously I can't contribute.[/QUOTE]
For the latter, yes, I understand, but Sodium has been questioning Kitten4u himself and I don't think that can be passed off as 'duhh nothing' without any comment. He is doing more than you are doing, in my opinion, and you just ignored what he did without any further explanation.
Quote
Was it bad enough for people to suddenly disregard secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and suddenly reduce Day 1 to a 2-lynch race? No.
Haven't YOU disregarded secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and haven't YOU suddenly reduced Day 1 to a 2-lynch race in part by not, say, unvoting if you thought that the pressure was going out of control? And if you think that way, why aren't YOU questioning the people on the bandwagon yesterday as having disregarded these secondary suspects like me and... yourself? This admission makes it seem as if you never really thought that Suwako was scummy enough to be lynched and if so, why didn't you unvote in favour of someone else?
People (townies at least), vote for the people they think are scummy and I thought that Suwako was the scummiest then. So the 'there are other people' defense doesn't count it and makes it seem as if you are playing from a scum point of view.
Quote
I don't understand why being first on the wagon immediately makes me unable to say that people jumped on the wagon too quickly for my liking.
Again, why didn't you unvote, etc.
Tripping over your own statements like this is rather telling on you; you seem to be giving everyone the impression of activity when you are not. Thus, you are now my preferred lynch for today.
---
If Angel Milk is going to be replaced, I would like to see what Serp and Anthony have to say.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: ES-Anthy on September 21, 2009, 10:10:14 AM
Overall, if Angel Milk is modkilled or replaced, then I would probably shift over to serp due to my previous reasoning of how so far it looks like serp is going on a case that was on D1, my gut feeling on Pesco was due to him, and several others stating my opinion on Vgt back on D1 as an actual attempt at a serious defense, when it was a simple opinion of it just looking like a bad case, so overall it's just people making it seem like it's more than what it was intended to be, trying to link me to Vgt
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 12:36:19 PM
If Serp was second on your list, why did you not mention it earlier? Why do you only agree now, when those points on him were so old.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 21, 2009, 02:15:32 PM
Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.
Alice has told me that he'd love to fill in but does not have the time to devote to the game.
I'm half tempted to ask Carthrat to fill in but, to be honest, I agree with Suwako on the fairness of replacement to the other players at this juncture given Tenshi's performance so far. :|
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 02:54:03 PM
For the latter, yes, I understand, but Sodium has been questioning Kitten4u himself and I don't think that can be passed off as 'duhh nothing' without any comment. He is doing more than you are doing, in my opinion, and you just ignored what he did without any further explanation.
This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94193#msg94193) is all the questioning he does, and it's more for the sake of clarification than anything. Pretty much everything else he's posted so far is IIoA.
Quote
Haven't YOU disregarded secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and haven't YOU suddenly reduced Day 1 to a 2-lynch race in part by not, say, unvoting if you thought that the pressure was going out of control?
Strawman. Why am I responsible for regulating the lynches given that I was only the first vote on Suwako, and therefore wasn't responsible for the votes that came afterwards? Unless you're accusing me of pulling up the Suwako wagon from scratch, anyway. Besides, by that time there was now a good deal of pressure on Suwako, and removing my vote at that time would've led people to believe I was trying to start a wagon and then disassociate myself with it when it got hot.
Quote
And if you think that way, why aren't YOU questioning the people on the bandwagon yesterday as having disregarded these secondary suspects like me and... yourself?
The two main people I've been trying to question on it are Zak and Sodium, third and fourth on the wagon. Except Zak has said absolutely NOTHING and Sodium has opted for the 'it wasn't me I can't possibly explain it' defense.
Affinity's sudden tunnelling on me is somewhat disturbing, but at least he's active. Meanwhile, I'm taking this opportunity to call out Zak on his complete and utter lack of existence today. Especially since he was another of the big arguers for the Suwako lynch, and he was very awkwardly placed on Suwako's wagon. Given that he was so talkative yesterday, what happened to him?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 21, 2009, 03:13:01 PM
Quote
Zak - Possibly also a throwaway vote, but I recall Zak being more proactive about pushing Suwako prior to the vote. Though, I question why he chose to vote Suwako after all when he mentions a lot of agreeing with the case on VgT.
because, we felt we had not properly looked into VgT. A Vote for him from us would be considered as "mindless bandwagoning" which we do not feel helps the town. We understood there was a case and were happy that it not only went through but was true. Unfortunately, there's absolutely nothing we can say about this to relieve suspicion.
We still generally look bitter towards Suwako's views on opinion giving, but after the realization that he can't be apart of the mafia, we have accepted it into our playstyle.
Quote
Zak: Is that seriously all you're going to say on the matter? Really? No other opinions at all? T_T
Giving opinions on others without vote doesn't seem to do us any good, so we're content right now to give reason and opinion on the one we are voting. Take the above suspicion on our mention but not vote on VgT as an example of this.
Quote
Question for Zakeri - looking back over D1, you seemed relatively accepting of pretty much every suggested lynch. You say here that Suwako, Anthony and VgT are all scummy. Why, then, did you choose Suwako over the other two, and were there any serious lynch suggestions yesterday that you didn't agree with? :/
Well, we didn't agree with UncertainKitten's Lynch. A Large part of our resulting vote may just have been because of the bitter feeling towards what Suwako seemed to have been saying yesterday. In all we were fine with any of the lynches we suggested in that post, less fine with UK and people not mentioned in that post
Quote
Making cases from scum flips is great when it's an available option,
Great! Why are you not, then?
Quote
but when someone goes out of his way to make that technique impossible to use against him, I think that's strong evidence in itself.
Except it would be a very, very inept mafia to assume that they would let themselves into a lose-lose situation like "Half the people on one scum, half of the people on the other."
Unless you think that's exactly what they were going for, which falls on the wrong side of WiFoM.
The switch to Angel looks like a backtrack disguised as a town move. We don't see how Angel's flip could clear Suwako independently of the running trains theory. We feel like you tried to shoehorn "Info-lynch" as a keyword in there. The suggestion of the relationship between Suwako and Angel seems superficial, since it stands to reason that scum were not voting for VgT yesterday if they could have helped it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 03:23:03 PM
Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.
Alice has told me that he'd love to fill in but does not have the time to devote to the game.
I'm half tempted to ask Carthrat to fill in but, to be honest, I agree with Suwako on the fairness of replacement to the other players at this juncture given Tenshi's performance so far. :|
Not replace. Just come in and say "<Person> is a fucking retard"
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 03:23:37 PM
So after much, MUCH pressing, Zak finally emerges.
because, we felt we had not properly looked into VgT. A Vote for him from us would be considered as "mindless bandwagoning" which we do not feel helps the town. We understood there was a case and were happy that it not only went through but was true. Unfortunately, there's absolutely nothing we can say about this to relieve suspicion.
So...in other words, supporting a wagon isn't okay if you have nothing new to bring to the table against that person?
Quote
Giving opinions on others without vote doesn't seem to do us any good
...Wait, I must have misread that. Let me look again.
Quote
Quote
Giving opinions on others without vote doesn't seem to do us any good
[/b]
...Are you kidding me? Are you honestly trying to say that you're only ever allowed to express an opinion on who you're voting for? Because that's an absolutely horrible line of thought unless you genuinely have nothing against anyone else at all.
tl;dr - this whole 'not showing other opinions' thing? Yeah, that's called TUNNELING.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 21, 2009, 03:25:10 PM
Requesting Alice makes a cameo appearance to berate someone.
Alice has told me that he'd love to fill in but does not have the time to devote to the game.
I'm half tempted to ask Carthrat to fill in but, to be honest, I agree with Suwako on the fairness of replacement to the other players at this juncture given Tenshi's performance so far. :|
Not replace. Just come in and say "<Person> is a fucking retard"
Oh.
I think I can arrange that.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 21, 2009, 03:39:29 PM
Tunneling implies that we are ignoring other people. We are just pursuing the one who we feel most probable scum.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 03:40:33 PM
Sylon might have been cool for replacing. But he hasn't been seen in a week :/
I think we haven't heard much from Nietz today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 03:44:16 PM
Tunneling implies that we are ignoring other people. We are just pursuing the one who we feel most probable scum.
Fact: There's probably more than one scum out there. And I fail to understand how this is different from tunneling, except that you claim to have opinions and don't bother making them known. How is retaining information anything other than Anti-Town?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 03:57:45 PM
Let's just consider the most important thing here first. Do you think Zak is scum, Rou? Yes or No only.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 03:59:08 PM
Let's just consider the most important thing here first. Do you think Zak is scum, Rou? Yes or No only.
Yes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 04:01:37 PM
EBWOP: And before the inevitable 'Why am I not voting for him' question, I'm putting him and Sodium down as scum for different reasons, and moving my vote won't do much since neither lynch seems to be happening.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 04:03:02 PM
Okay then why are you arguing about theoretical things instead of putting down statements of "Zak did ____ which is scummy for _____ reasons"?
I'll have a reread after dinner and other stuff.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 04:11:09 PM
Okay then why are you arguing about theoretical things instead of putting down statements of "Zak did ____ which is scummy for _____ reasons"?
I'll have a reread after dinner and other stuff.
Because I already did that back here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg95728#msg95728) when I pointed out he was tunnelling. Do I need to explicitly say something along the lines of
Zak is scummy because of his convenient placing on the Suwako wagon, his aggressive nature on said wagon followed by his quick wagon jump and following silence on Day 2, and his sudden inability to discuss anyone other than Serpentarius.
for people to appreciate my case?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 04:20:52 PM
EBWOP: And since you want reasoning as well:
Placing: It's already been pointed out that Suwako likely rose as an alternative lynch to VgT. Zak was fourth on the wagon, and spent the day arguing for Suwako's death fervently. Silence: After this, Zak opened Day 2 jumping onto the growing Serpentarius wagon, and proceeded to stay silent until he was pressed. Not contributing is Anti-Town. Tunneling: Zak has suddenly undertaken the mindset that you can only express opinions on the player you're voting for, which is absolutely ridiculous. Not only is it inconsistent given that Zak was perfectly capable of considering other cases before jumping onto Suwako, but it's basically keeping your opinions from the rest of the players, which is decidedly anti-Town.
Actually, I'm gonna go all the way with this one. Sodium at least has RL and a sort of newbie thing that gives him something resembling mitigating circumstances. Zakeri has claimed no RL problems and yet was still totally silent for over 24 hours. He has no excuse.
##Unvote: Sodium Vote: Zakeri, Zakeri, Zakeri, Zakeri and Zakeri (L-7)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 21, 2009, 05:29:52 PM
Yeah, about that. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg95583#msg95583)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 06:26:21 PM
Modconfirmed wierdness. Unless someone is going to claim it, a scumAnthony flip should confirm whoever is responsible as town.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 06:33:56 PM
I'm not sure about this line of thinking. How Townie an ability is 'stop player X from voting'? And if it IS a scum power it screams WIFOM, so it should probably be dropped as a null tell either way.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 21, 2009, 06:37:01 PM
To try to set up a mislynch to counter the VgT wagon, it would be easier for Scum Rou to hype up one of the existing cases that had 2 or so votes on them already. I don't see why Scum couldn't have gone for one of the already established wagons which is why I'm thinking the earlier Suwako votes may have been from Townies.
Here, Kiro, you admit that you think the Suwako wagon could've sprung up from multiple townies making valid observations about Suwako's play. If that's the case, then Suwako was set up as the alternative to VgameT without any scum action at all. Then, shouldn't VgameT's flip have no bearing at all upon Suwako's?
Regarding my priority of an Angel Milk lynch over a Suwako or an Anthony one, and all the questions stemming from that, I may be letting rage at their relative lack of contribution weigh too heavily on my judgement. I'm going to do a fresh reread tonight.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 06:43:28 PM
The question, then, is why the Suwako wagon picked up so quickly compared to the VgT and Anthony ones. The point against him were valid, true, but so were the points against VgT and (arguably) Anthony. Why was Suwako's wagon so much faster to build?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 21, 2009, 06:56:18 PM
To try to set up a mislynch to counter the VgT wagon, it would be easier for Scum Rou to hype up one of the existing cases that had 2 or so votes on them already. I don't see why Scum couldn't have gone for one of the already established wagons which is why I'm thinking the earlier Suwako votes may have been from Townies.
Here, Kiro, you admit that you think the Suwako wagon could've sprung up from multiple townies making valid observations about Suwako's play. If that's the case, then Suwako was set up as the alternative to VgameT without any scum action at all. Then, shouldn't VgameT's flip have no bearing at all upon Suwako's?
This misses the point again. Were Suwako scum, a third case would have been pushed to at least TRY to make a non-scum train. Were Suwako town, then, well, Suwako's town.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 21, 2009, 07:17:13 PM
Serp, I was suggesting the Suwako wagon could have been started by Townies. But you really don't seem to be considering that Scum added onto it to make it competitive. They had to for the following reason:
If we look at just pure numbers, I think 14 out of 16 players voted for one or the other. Say at least 4 scum/anti-Town players exist in the game or 25%. If both VgT and Suwako are Scum, they were bussed by a few of their buddies. In this double-scum scenario, are you really suggesting with Scum VgT in the lead, some of the remaining Scum purposely fueled along the Suwako wagon, another Scum, to have it compete with VgT's? Statistically speaking, if the Suwako wagon was composed entirely of Townies (minus 1 because VgT was on it), and Suwako's and one other person's vote not on either wagon, you would need at least one Scum actively bussing VgT. Scum just letting their own members be the 2 dominating wagons of the day is extremely careless to be borderline suicidal as early flushing out of Scum just gives chance the Town to win by power role collusive lockdown.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 21, 2009, 07:20:34 PM
EBWOP: "just gives chance the Town"...
I crack myself up sometimes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 21, 2009, 09:59:52 PM
Yeah see the thing here is it actually looks like the wagon on me had a lot of townies getting their panties in knots, I'm not getting a big "this was a scum push" vibe. More of a "scum completely fail at putting anything together" vibe. This is consistent with the scum team having members who aren't in the game at all, like Angel Milk.
And if he/she is not getting modkilled, I don't see how we have any choice but to lynch them, we certainly can't risk have them around later and even if they did get a replacement or suddenly start playing the doubts will always be too much. This would be a semi-interesting policy debate if Angel Milk looked relatively townie, but fortunately the only thing they have done is pretty scummy so... I really don't see how anyone other than Angel could be the best lynch today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 10:06:15 PM
Question for Suwako. If no-one on your wagon is worth suspecting, who are Tenshi/Angel's scumbuddies?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Sodium on September 21, 2009, 10:53:20 PM
Tenshi: What is this I don't even. I don't feel like repeating everyone, but the reasoning sucks, and it's stupid to even say "I THINK X IS COP" out loud.
Roukan: >Catchup Post >Nothing new Gee, you think? And it's hard to ask questions to a person that isn't existing. I doubt asking Anthony questions would be conductive to anything either. Oh, and I don't get why you're picking on Zakeri and I for "not contributing", when there's Nietz who hasn't posted much either, Suwako who hasn't existed much either, and Tenshi, which is self-explanatory.
Nietz, Kitten4u: You going to post any time soon?
Affinity: Where'd your Nietz case go? =3
Suwako: The "scum completely fail at putting anything together" could also pertain to Anthony too.
And I'm pretty sure that Suwako is PROBABLY town, unless scum really suck as hard as Suwako is saying.
Staying on Tenshi for being obvscum, and failing that, useless. Only person stupid enough to replace Tenshi now would be me, and I've already replaced someone.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 21, 2009, 11:18:05 PM
Yeah see the thing here is it actually looks like the wagon on me had a lot of townies getting their panties in knots, I'm not getting a big "this was a scum push" vibe. More of a "scum completely fail at putting anything together" vibe. This is consistent with the scum team having members who aren't in the game at all, like Angel Milk.
You're doing a fantastic job of giving Serp an out to excuse his scummy behavior, you know that?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Nietz on September 21, 2009, 11:30:20 PM
Ok, let's go back at it:
Rou: I came so strong on Anthony at the beginning of D2 that I soon more-or-less dismissed it as typical TownRou meta. He does keep playing consistently with that, but I don't think that's enough to clear him any more, considering VgT's flip. Here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90064#msg90064) is when he firsts acknowledges there is a VgT case, and says that he might vote him unless he does something "AWESOME", which I don' think he did, but instead he starts the wagon on Suwako, and his only further mentions of VgT are downplaying is suspicion value (by 88 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91508#msg91508) he's down to sixth place in the scummy list), which is weird because the case on VgT wasn't that different from Anthony's to begin with. Also pretty much drops the case on Anthony, except for mentioning that he's fine with either a Suwako or Antony lynch (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91857#msg91857), when an Anthony lynch clearly wasn't going to happen anymore. Also, I don't think he has answered to this:
I suppose the thing with Tenshi is that he seems almost too obvious. >_> Then again, given that, Town!Tenshi would logically have been easy prey for scum yesterday, and since no-one went for him...
What? By what logic would scum go after an largely uncooperative town that's likely to be wagoned the next day. It wouldn't make sense even to avoid a protect, considering how many player there were left.
He said it even before Anthony said the same thing, but unlike Anthony he wasn't questioned for it.
And about Anthony and his new voteblock thing, I really didn't like how, instead of just asking the mod to correct the count, he made a huge scene of re-voting and voting yet again just to call everyone's attention to his situation. This really gives me the feel of a scumbuddy using such an ability on him as a ploy to make him look town. Admittedly, this theory fails if that's actually a Town power, or if scum is trying to WIFOM him, but I'm still confident in it, particularly considering Anthony's choice of "safe" target.
About Angel Milk, I really would prefer him modkilled, but not if that will carry a penalty to Town if he's a townie.@Edible: Can you clarify that?
Personally I feel a kind of weird dynamic over Nietz's posts about Anthony and Angel Milk. On D1, Nietz did defend VgT and Anthony to some extent and was wary of scum voting them due to them being easy targets, which is the very basis of his pesco vote, but his recent post here on D2 more or less does the same thing with Angel Milk, except that he accentuates the negative, thinking that he's anti-town, and yet still wary of people voting him for that. Why?
Anti-town ≠ scummy. Both attitudes can lead to town voting someone, but the first is usually a better ground for scum to push a myslinch.
Quote
Also, how, in your view, do you differentiate a newbie bewildered by all these posts and posting bad content, to a newbie posting bad content more regularly? Their mistakes are mostly the same variety, so how is Angel Milk more scummy than Anthony in this regard?
What's was scummy about Milk was basically his only meaningful action being joining the Suwako wagon, the rest was pure anti-town inactivity. But he's not more scummy than Anthony, especially considering the latter's recent voteblock stunt.
Quote
Lastly, I don't particularly like how VgT's flip affects your view of playstyles and Anthony for this game, seeing that you supposedly had a larger body of evidence saying that newbies were often mislynches, this kind of makes you feel like some compulsive gambler. Gives an air of inconsistency about your playstyle which I don't really endorse; this is bad for the crops.
I don't think I understand your point here. I admit that I was wrong on judging VgT, so I might have been wrong about Anthony on the same grounds. Plus, his play is getting scummier as the game goes on, as I mentioned in D1 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91934#msg91934) already.
There's still some people I should read better, but right now I'm pretty much set on Anthony, Serp and Rou in order of suspicions. Anthony's voteblock drama put him ahead, though I would be fine with the others as well.
I have a statement I'd usually apply here but it comes off as bitchy so I'll spare it.
I miss the old UK. :(
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 21, 2009, 11:33:13 PM
Sigh again Suwako why didn't you drop the case on Kilga earlier today. It feels as if Minoriko's invisibility charm has worn off on the player himself and that Suwako's hat is too big for her eyes which seems to be the case all game.
---
@Rou:
And Rou, I have not been tunneling since I have questioned Nietz and Suwako as well. How was it IIoA? There was some progress in the questioning there, it seems, and there were opinions. Furthermore, Sodium was on the VgT bandwagon yesterday and for some reason you do not take into account Eliphas' posts yesterday. Your, erm, 'premises' for attacking him is also rather flawed and unwieldy too; see below.
Quote
Besides, by that time there was now a good deal of pressure on Suwako, and removing my vote at that time would've led people to believe I was trying to start a wagon and then disassociate myself with it when it got hot.
I disagree; you meant it as a prod, you expressed it as a prod, and you could drop it as a prod since you were around when the number of votes on Suwako was equal to that on VgT. Furthermore, in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91508#msg91508), you explicitly say that you wanted Suwako to be lynched that day, which is at odds with your current position. Contradictions like these are bad.
Quote
Why am I responsible for regulating the lynches given that I was only the first vote on Suwako, and therefore wasn't responsible for the votes that came afterwards
You are not, but you are partially responsible for regulating the bandwagon and you had numerous chances to do so. I don't understand why if you can vote for Suwako due to him being scummy, others can't.
Quote
The two main people I've been trying to question on it are Zak and Sodium, third and fourth on the wagon.
What. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91909#msg91909) Obviously, you are not reading properly and you're just scum trying to push easy lynches while giving the impression of activity. Confirming my vote.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 21, 2009, 11:36:23 PM
EBWOP:
@Nietz:
Okay, that clears up stuff. My point is that you since you were coming into the game with the mindset that newbies shouldn't be lynched straightaway, the VgT lynch shouldn't just change it like that.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 21, 2009, 11:39:45 PM
About Angel Milk, I really would prefer him modkilled, but not if that will carry a penalty to Town if he's a townie.@Edible: Can you clarify that?
All modkills are day-ending, regardless of the alignment of the person being modkilled (unless that person was doing something to be modkilled to intentionally provoke a day-end or whatever).
Frankly, while I despise his lack of contribution, he has responded successfully to prods each time. I believe it should be up to the players to decide how best to deal with him. That said, he has given himself up for replacement, so I will be forced to modkill him eventually if I cannot find a replacement.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 21, 2009, 11:45:37 PM
You could always modkill him and not flip him until the end of the day.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 21, 2009, 11:56:28 PM
And Rou, I have not been tunneling since I have questioned Nietz and Suwako as well. How was it IIoA? There was some progress in the questioning there, it seems, and there were opinions. Furthermore, Sodium was on the VgT bandwagon yesterday and for some reason you do not take into account Eliphas' posts yesterday. Your, erm, 'premises' for attacking him is also rather flawed and unwieldy too; see below.
I got annoyed by excerpts like these:
Quote
Aaaaand nothing really new happened. Except for a new Nietz case by Affinity.
Congrats on saying 'hey there's a case here' and immediately NOT COMMENTING ON IT.
Quote
I disagree; you meant it as a prod, you expressed it as a prod, and you could drop it as a prod since you were around when the number of votes on Suwako was equal to that on VgT.
So once again, I have to come apart with my own case because everyone else suddenly starts jumping on it?
Quote
Furthermore, in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91508#msg91508), you explicitly say that you wanted Suwako to be lynched that day, which is at odds with your current position. Contradictions like these are bad.
It started as a prod, and he continued to fail producing as the day went on which made me want to lynch him. I don't see a contradiction.
Quote
You are not, but you are partially responsible for regulating the bandwagon and you had numerous chances to do so. I don't understand why if you can vote for Suwako due to him being scummy, others can't.
You're missing the point of the entire argument here. It's the fact that as soon as the Suwako wagon appeared, there were 3 jumpers on it and other cases fell to the side. Given that the leading lynch at that point was a Mafioso, it seems believable that he was being quickwagoned to try and save VgT.
Quote
What. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91909#msg91909) Obviously, you are not reading properly and you're just scum trying to push easy lynches while giving the impression of activity. Confirming my vote.
Gah, this game is getting to me. *headdesk* I was after Zak for the positioning on the Suwako wagon, and Eliphas/Sodium for being VgT's last gasp vote change. I can't really respond to this other than saying that (as people have accused me of forgetting several times) not all mistakes are scummy. Outright fabricating facts for the sake of looking active is suicidal.
I suppose the thing with Tenshi is that he seems almost too obvious. >_> Then again, given that, Town!Tenshi would logically have been easy prey for scum yesterday, and since no-one went for him...
What? By what logic would scum go after an largely uncooperative town that's likely to be wagoned the next day. It wouldn't make sense even to avoid a protect, considering how many player there were left.
I don't understand how this is as bad an idea for scum as you make it out to be. It's not like the entire wagon would be scum - some misguided Townies would be on there as well, and it would have a decent chance of saving VgT.
We're sort of running out of time in terms of deciding a lynch. Current order of preference is Zak, Tenshi, Sodium, Anthony. After Zak's tunneling on Serp today I'm slightly concerned about that wagon.
In other news, if Tenshi is actually Town after Edible's whole 'I don't want to modkill him even though he's posting more or less nothing' I will probably self-destruct.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 22, 2009, 12:13:08 AM
I suppose the thing with Tenshi is that he seems almost too obvious. >_> Then again, given that, Town!Tenshi would logically have been easy prey for scum yesterday, and since no-one went for him...
What? By what logic would scum go after an largely uncooperative town that's likely to be wagoned the next day. It wouldn't make sense even to avoid a protect, considering how many player there were left.
I don't understand how this is as bad an idea for scum as you make it out to be. It's not like the entire wagon would be scum - some misguided Townies would be on there as well, and it would have a decent chance of saving VgT.
Actually, scratch that whole thing, I misunderstood "yesterday" for "last night", my bad.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kitten4u on September 22, 2009, 01:14:42 AM
Quote from: Sodium
Kitten4u: You going to post any time soon?
Mondays are busy for me. I've only been able to focus on this topic for about 5 minutes at a time before having to do something else.
---
So not much has changed for me. I still find Anthony the most suspicious. Serp is now more suspicious than Rou. I'd like to see if we could get a replacement for Angel Milk before we think about a lynch, but if that's clearly not possible then I'd be fine with that lynch as well so that D3 wouldn't end early.
So yeah, my thoughts are basically the same as they were last time I posted. Most everything I have to add has already been said, but I'll go ahead and repeat people.
I've never dealt with a PR that makes it so certain people can't vote. That's pretty interesting. It isn't making me think that Anthony is town, and it doesn't make him look less suspicious at all.
Tenshi's comment about Rou was bad and should not have been said.
Rou actually looks like he's trying to scum hunt now, so that's what dropped him below Serp on my scumdar. Something feels odd about some of his posts, but I can't quite figure out what it is. I'll work on figuring that out.
I agree that Zak is looking weird. I think there are better lynches for today though.
Waiting on Serp's reread and comments for the moment.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: WHMZakeri on September 22, 2009, 03:39:39 AM
We could give three shaky reasons why Town X deserves lynch, and still avoid suspicion by throwing in keywords and phrases like "Infolynch" and "I've just finished rereading".
Likewise, We could give five solid reasons for why Scum X, Scum Y, and Town Z all deserve lynches, and yet by leaving our vote on Town Z, we could still be called scum once those three flip.
It's obvious you're never going to forgive us of the vote on Suwako, even if we could prove it was an innocent mistake.
Quote
and proceeded to stay silent until he was pressed.
You make it sound like we were here the whole time we were silent.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 22, 2009, 04:24:34 AM
@Rou:
Quote
Aaaaand nothing really new happened. Except for a new Nietz case by Affinity.
True, I have to agree with you here. The fact that Sodium asked me where that case went before Nietz even came on to answer me is also disturbing; his last post made him far worse. What do you mean by being VgT's last gasp vote change, though?
Quote
It's the fact that as soon as the Suwako wagon appeared, there were 3 jumpers on it and other cases fell to the side. Given that the leading lynch at that point was a Mafioso, it seems believable that he was being quickwagoned to try and save VgT.
Quote
It started as a prod, and he continued to fail producing as the day went on which made me want to lynch him. I don't see a contradiction.
Quote
Was it bad enough to earn my vote for the sake of creating some sort of pressure on him? Yes. Was it bad enough for people to suddenly disregard secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and suddenly reduce Day 1 to a 2-lynch race? No.
My point here is that these three tidbits are in direct contradiction here. If you felt that way, it's not that unfeasible to think that many people would feel that way too, and just because you said that 'yeah I had a case on him' doesn't mean that you can be excluded from your own usage of the 'zero to four vote' argument to accuse others. As Zakeri said, this is because anybody can say that yes they voted Suwako over others for genuine reasons and give a common few, including yourself.
In this way, any attempt of your own to use that bandwagon argument to implicate others, including Serp and Zak, is a contradiction in itself even if you cite alternate cases. Trying to get past this is the main reason why I think you're scummy in addition to what UK said.
Quote
Zak is scummy because of his convenient placing on the Suwako wagon, his aggressive nature on said wagon followed by his quick wagon jump and following silence on Day 2, and his sudden inability to discuss anyone other than Serpentarius.
Two of that above points apply to you as well. Silence is circumstantial.
---
@K4u:
How is Rou scumhunting in your opinion?
---
Angel Milk should be banned from Mafia games forever. Suspicion list runs Rou, Anthony, Angel Milk. Am not too sure on Serp at the moment, shall reread him. Also laughable is how Suwako is employing the exact same playstyle as he is about not using flips to do anything beside advocating their use yesterday (except far worse), not replying to my questions and shrugging them off, and just generally just coasting along the town cred he has for being on the alternate bandwagon. If he didn't have the latter, he would be my choice for a lynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 22, 2009, 04:47:25 AM
Hey guys let's play the not taking statements and running with them until they become absolutes game!
Round 1 postanalysis: when I say "Stop pursuing junk cases day 1", it doesn't mean "sit around and do absolutely nothing day 1."
Round 2, ongoing: when I say "I get an angry townies vibe from the day 1 train on me, rather than a scum push vibe" it doesn't mean "I believe there were absolutely no scum on that train whatsover."
As you can see it's a pretty simple game.
I'm not answering Affinity's questions about the early Pesco case for the same reason the Obama administration doesn't take questions about his birth certificate. It should be obvious why super early day 1 cases are dropped and are no longer worthy of serious discussion on day 2, I feel dirty posting even this much about it.
The dogpile on Anthony is... ehhhhhh. His play is about the same as Angel Milk, master of the art of not showing up and doing anything except voting the wrong case. That's pretty bad. On the other hand he somehow lacks a vote and that somehow inspired Pesco to make the worst post I've seen in some time. This inclines me a bit more towards his townieness but that's a debacle all around. I'd be up for lynching him or Serp I guess but I don't see how they stand out over each other or Angel.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 22, 2009, 06:29:59 AM
You have around 12 hours remaining. As a reminder, you need 8 votes to lynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 06:46:19 AM
Ugh. Letting Serp live to see Day 3 after all the garbage he spewed today pisses me off, but it doesn't look his lynch is happening today. Hopefully getting one of Anthony and Tenshi to flip will make more people actually look at him and see how truly scummy his play has been.
##Unvote: Serpentarius ##Vote: Tenshi
Tenshi and Anthony were basically the same for me going into the day, so I'd rather vote for the one whose (non-)actions are 120% unacceptable and warrant being banned from this game for a very, very long time.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 06:53:55 AM
My phone post got eaten by bad connection.
I'm feeling quite sure of who is playing as Suwako now. Nobody really knows the meta to apply so there shouldn't be a problem if I make my reveal is there?
Aaaaand nothing really new happened. Except for a new Nietz case by Affinity.
True, I have to agree with you here. The fact that Sodium asked me where that case went before Nietz even came on to answer me is also disturbing; his last post made him far worse. What do you mean by being VgT's last gasp vote change, though?
Quote
It's the fact that as soon as the Suwako wagon appeared, there were 3 jumpers on it and other cases fell to the side. Given that the leading lynch at that point was a Mafioso, it seems believable that he was being quickwagoned to try and save VgT.
Quote
It started as a prod, and he continued to fail producing as the day went on which made me want to lynch him. I don't see a contradiction.
Quote
Was it bad enough to earn my vote for the sake of creating some sort of pressure on him? Yes. Was it bad enough for people to suddenly disregard secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and suddenly reduce Day 1 to a 2-lynch race? No.
Kilga had already pointed out why point 1 is unlikely, I've given my version too.
Your vote post here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90636#msg90636) doesn't sound like a prod. You're accusing him outright of being scum trying to fly under the radar. A prod vote goes more along the lines of "You're not doing anything, deliver! Here's a vote to show you I'm serious."
I think people can see for themselves that the topic of your posts after the vote were mostly gripes against Suwako, self-defence and light throwbacks to Anthony or blanket suspicions.
Affinity's call on your contradictions is valid.
I'm still getting to that reread of Zak. Doublepost if I have to.
Cut: I've said my piece on Serp. Can we get the other people on Anthony and Tenshi to restate thier votes then?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 22, 2009, 07:23:09 AM
Have very little to add at the moment as I'm mostly waiting on Serp's latest reread and reply. I still find Anthony's reasons in #386 pretty bad including the now current push for Serp as his secondary lynch after not initially mentioning him. Your top 2 cases are on 2 rightfully suspicious players, but they really aren't voting you at the moment. Anthony, in your #436, you're highlighting your impression that there are "people making it seem like [your opinion on VgT] is more than what it was intended to be." Do you think any particular person that is doing this as being probable Scum? If you're actually a Townie, it is highly unlikely that every single person on your wagon or putting you as a #2 is an actual Townie. Share your suspicions and don't back down. Part of the problem with you is that you were indecisive in early Day 1 about voting and even backed off your vote on Rou. Especially since you're in the vote lead right now, you should be posting more of your suspicions while you still can rather than saying less.
I should be around for the deadline tomorrow. My preferred order at the moment would be Anthony, Serp, then Tenshi. I just feel Tenshi has the most chance of being a Scum mislynch target than either Anthony or Serp (also due to both Anthony and Serp being on the Tenshi wagon, although Anthony is figuratively on the wagon) so that's why Tenshi's 3rd for me.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 22, 2009, 07:54:15 AM
Oh, Pesco. You're such a cutiepie. It's horribly antitown to try to call down metagaming for no reason like that, but it'll be good for a laugh and you're wrong anyway so why not. Pucker up and give the frog princess a smooch!
Kilga my man, you asked this a couple times and I gotta say, I just don't see how Serp is that much incredibly scummier than the other leading brands of lynch candidate. I get that you don't like him and he's probably my second choice today but I'm just not sold on him enough to see why he'd go over Mrs. One Post.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 07:55:33 AM
SirAlex
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 22, 2009, 08:37:55 AM
Nope! Hilarity reigns!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 08:54:05 AM
It's not like you would admit it even if I was right. Further, Suwako would just change hands again after this game.
@Kilga: Again, I don't follow. Why is Suwako voting for you?
This never got answered. I'd like to know.
There wasn't much of Zak to reread since his stuff was few and far in between. I mean nothing that I can remember after his vote on Suwako. Grasping at Zak for his position on the wagon is weak. Questioning his content wrt the Suwako wagon might have been a more valid route.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 09:19:37 AM
Quote
What do you mean by being VgT's last gasp vote change, though?
He was being pressed to actually hold an opinion, actually choose a case to back, but instead of going for one of the leading wagons he puts his vote on Sodiphas. Why?
Quote
If you felt that way, it's not that unfeasible to think that many people would feel that way too, and just because you said that 'yeah I had a case on him' doesn't mean that you can be excluded from your own usage of the 'zero to four vote' argument to accuse others. As Zakeri said, this is because anybody can say that yes they voted Suwako over others for genuine reasons and give a common few, including yourself.
Starting a case because on a prod makes sense. Jumping on a bandwagon to prod who it's targeting, not so much.
Quote
Two of that above points apply to you as well. Silence is circumstantial.
I don't see this post as anything other than trying to discredit my case. Except instead of pointing out what I'm doing wrong he just accuses me of being a hypocrite. Nice work.
We could give three shaky reasons why Town X deserves lynch, and still avoid suspicion by throwing in keywords and phrases like "Infolynch" and "I've just finished rereading".
Likewise, We could give five solid reasons for why Scum X, Scum Y, and Town Z all deserve lynches, and yet by leaving our vote on Town Z, we could still be called scum once those three flip.
Or alternatively you could be voting X who gets lynched, then why who gets lynched, or vice versa. This is outright grasping.
Quote
It's obvious you're never going to forgive us of the vote on Suwako, even if we could prove it was an innocent mistake.
Blatant strawman. It's not the Suwako case I'm pressing you on, it's the D2 sudden silence and the tunnelling.
Quote
You make it sound like we were here the whole time we were silent.
You made no effort to explain your disappearance, and 24 hours is a long time to be absent. Plus comparing it with your activity D1...
Again, Zak is The Lynch I Want But Can't Have. Tenshi I am terrified is Town but really I know I have no reason to believe that. Sodium is another lynch I wouldn't mind that isn't happening, and Anthony sort of just stopped talking.
Since Edible seems to be going to explicit lengths to not modkill Tenshi, and he had to explicitly point out that all modkills were day-ending, I'm going to just have to take scum lurking as scum lurking. Tenshi at least tried to produce in his last game. Here? Nothing.
##Unvote: Zak Vote: Tenshi
Willing to switch to Anthony if necessary.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 22, 2009, 09:33:58 AM
Ah yeah that's another thing. Why exactly are people TERRIFIED Tenshimilk is town? Even if that is so, they're a liability that we can't afford to have around at endgame, scum sure ain't gonna kill them for us, and the mod refuses to deal with the lurking without ending the day, which is the same thing as us lynching 'em.
And that's on top of the case for them being scum, which is preeeetty good.
So what is with the strong language and terrification here?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 22, 2009, 10:41:59 AM
@Rou:
Quote
Jumping on a bandwagon to prod who it's targeting, not so much
Whoever said that I was prodding everyone? Who ever said that anyone else on the bandwagon was prodding anyone?
Quote
He was being pressed to actually hold an opinion, actually choose a case to back, but instead of going for one of the leading wagons he puts his vote on Sodiphas. Why?
Regarding this, I never liked cases of 'I never did anything but scum molested me so I look scummy', because what VgT did has nothing to do with Sodium's alignment. What you should be looking at is Eliphas' reactions, which there were none, so you embarking on this case is nigh silly. His actual scuminess in his way of playing I can accept but no reason why you should not go after Suwako as well.
Quote
Blatant strawman. It's not the Suwako case I'm pressing you on, it's the D2 sudden silence and the tunnelling.
It is! Because you're not pressing Suwako, who has uhh... tunneled on Angel Milk himself with even less contributions.
---
And so Suwako somehow drops the case on Kilga! And proceeds to persuade everyone to go on Angel Milk! Generally, the people who have dumped their votes on Tenshi since the beginning of the day without really evaluating anyone else are currently, excluding bandwagon analysis, the scummiest, especially since Tenshi isn't going to answer anyways, and that the 72 hours of today could have been more fruitfully spent searching other people out, which Suwako does with flair. Personally, however, I prefer the case against Anthony due to more solid evidence; since there is always a chance later in the game that a replacement will show up, and I'm willing to bank on that chance.
##Unvote ##Vote: Anthony
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 11:50:20 AM
Ah yeah that's another thing. Why exactly are people TERRIFIED Tenshimilk is town? Even if that is so, they're a liability that we can't afford to have around at endgame, scum sure ain't gonna kill them for us, and the mod refuses to deal with the lurking without ending the day, which is the same thing as us lynching 'em.
And that's on top of the case for them being scum, which is preeeetty good.
So what is with the strong language and terrification here?
It just feels too easy, I suppose. As in 'would scum ever really be this uncooperative'?
Whoever said that I was prodding everyone? Who ever said that anyone else on the bandwagon was prodding anyone?
You said that later members on the bandwagon were just as capable of jumping off as me, but by building the wagon they basically made the case. Therefore they obviously weren't voting Suwako based on a prod, which is what you were suggesting with 'why couldn't the rest of the wagon thought the same as you?'
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Regarding this, I never liked cases of 'I never did anything but scum molested me so I look scummy', because what VgT did has nothing to do with Sodium's alignment. What you should be looking at is Eliphas' reactions, which there were none, so you embarking on this case is nigh silly. His actual scuminess in his way of playing I can accept but no reason why you should not go after Suwako as well.
Not responding is scummy in its own way. And stop linking everything to Suwako, who's been more or less cleared. Unless you can come up with a good explanation for why scum would be fine with a double-scum wagon pair, he's more or less Town, but that doesn't make lurking okay.
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It is! Because you're not pressing Suwako, who has uhh... tunneled on Angel Milk himself with even less contributions.
Note that I WAS pressing Suwako until the clear was explained to me.
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And so Suwako somehow drops the case on Kilga!
Because being early on a scum lynch is a terrible reason to clear someone!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 11:51:55 AM
EBWOP: Why are you disregarding the VgT vote as meaning anything? Why Sodiphas over someone like Anthony or one of the other suspects who'd appeared?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Affinity on September 22, 2009, 12:30:30 PM
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You said that later members on the bandwagon were just as capable of jumping off as me, but by building the wagon they basically made the case. Therefore they obviously weren't voting Suwako based on a prod, which is what you were suggesting with 'why couldn't the rest of the wagon thought the same as you?''
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Starting a case because on a prod makes sense. Jumping on a bandwagon to prod who it's targeting, not so much.
Isn't this contradicting what you said? Also I was merely suggesting that everyone has their own vote and reasons to do what they do with them; if you can vote him, why can't they?
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Not responding is scummy in its own way. And stop linking everything to Suwako, who's been more or less cleared. Unless you can come up with a good explanation for why scum would be fine with a double-scum wagon pair, he's more or less Town, but that doesn't make lurking okay.
I concede the second point, but not the first. 'Not responding' is hilariously off the mark, e.g here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92217#msg92217). Also, Sodium and Eliphas are different people; what disturbs me is that you never consider this post.
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Because being early on a scum lynch is a terrible reason to clear someone!
He himself said that he had a lingering suspicion on Kilga in the beginning of the day.
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EBWOP: Why are you disregarding the VgT vote as meaning anything? Why Sodiphas over someone like Anthony or one of the other suspects who'd appeared?
Because scum can do anything they want. They may randomly vote someone to look different and to mislead town; they could vote you or me and you wouldn't be scummy for it by my standards. As I said, the reactions to that vote are more important because that is left to the player in question.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 01:11:35 PM
Also I was merely suggesting that everyone has their own vote and reasons to do what they do with them; if you can vote him, why can't they?
If this is what you meant, I misinterpreted your statement. I thought you were implying that the later voters were also poking Suwako. Anyway, I don't have any objection to the voting part, it's just that such a large bandwagon growing in so short a time with all the alternatives thrown aside is somewhat iffy.
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I concede the second point, but not the first. 'Not responding' is hilariously off the mark, e.g here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg92217#msg92217).
asdadfslogdkbndflhbkndlgkhbndfbknmd I only just noticed that Eliphas was another of the early jumpers on VgT and that therefore VgT's vote is basically an OMGUS. FFFFFFFI can't play this game.
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He himself said that he had a lingering suspicion on Kilga in the beginning of the day.
In the same way that I still have a lingering suspicion that this IS indeed all a setup and Suwako is scum. But until I have decent evidence to back that up, I'm keeping it at the back of my mind.
Getting incredibly infuriated at my own inability to recall basic information now. It's not even that I'm that busy, I just keep remembering things wrong. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 02:05:16 PM
Kilga my man, you asked this a couple times and I gotta say, I just don't see how Serp is that much incredibly scummier than the other leading brands of lynch candidate. I get that you don't like him and he's probably my second choice today but I'm just not sold on him enough to see why he'd go over Mrs. One Post.
It's more that I'm aggravated that every word from his mouth today has ostensibly been "Hi I'm Daisy scum" and yet he garnered exactly one vote outside of mine (and from someone I leaned scum on at the beginning of the day to boot). We had Kiro giving pussy-out reasons to avoid having to cast full judgment for a while and everyone else has either gone "yeah that looks pretty good" while focusing their attention elsewhere or flat-out ignored the case entirely.
Then there's the outside shot that Tenshi is town that's just really, really bad. It's like a 2% chance but it's still a chance. There is 0% chance Serp is town.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 02:45:52 PM
Hey Kilga. Why was Suwako voting you yesterday? Umu asked, I re-asked and once more.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 02:51:11 PM
Kilga, I was referring more towards that last post where you were all "o lol sure is some rageathol here with people voting Suwako!.... *crickets chirp*"
I don't know what was up with pyosting that - JUST that with nothing else - and I'm not soooo sure I like it.
...
I think scum in this situation would lay back and spur on the gobs of bad cases and unproductive discussion while taking few hard stances themselves and putting out ambiguous statements about cases like the one on myself. Pesco's been hanging back but supporting the spam and taking an attitude that puts himself out of the discussion while not condemning it, and Kilga did that with his one liner about rageathol.
Iiiiiinteresting Looking active while providing no meaningful opinions eh That describes, likero, half the game-o though. Why VGT specifically? Because he didn't throw down a "case" and vote like other people did? Is this really indicative of scumminess?
Less than convincing.
I'm on the fence with Kilga and Pesco, annnnd... still cool voting Kilga I think due to less than convincingness.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 22, 2009, 03:02:31 PM
So, do I have time to catch up from what was admittedly lazyness and being sick of reading this fucking game over and over again?
Yeah, that's about how I feel. I'll do another crazy catchup post if I have the time. if I run out of time I'll store it in notepad and post it tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 03:09:09 PM
I would only bother with catching up wrt Anthony and Tenshi, since no other lynch seems viable today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 22, 2009, 03:20:39 PM
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I would only bother with catching up wrt Anthony and Tenshi, since no other lynch seems viable today.
While I've been reading the past three pages, I've been glossing over them. that's the catch up I mean. And honestly, from what I remember of Anthony he's more actively scummy, even if I'm unhappy with his lynch. His vote being blocked is an interesting wrinkle but probably shouldn't factor into anything. I'm unhappier with Angel Milk's lynch mostly because, excuse the really bad argument, it is "too easy". Has anyone opposed it even slightly? (well, I hope to find out)
Now to really get on that thing...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 04:23:13 PM
In your own words would be nice Kilga.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 04:31:41 PM
Why? Everyone else in this game is capable of reading.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 04:32:58 PM
(That is not to imply that you are not. Bit of poor phrasing there.)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 22, 2009, 04:40:05 PM
So, 2 hours or so left, Anthony and Tenshi at 4 votes, needing 8 to lynch?
Role roll call time. Anyone else besides UK, Kilga, Pesco, and me around?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 04:42:09 PM
Rou is around. Maybe Anthony, but he's lurkscum so whatever.
Why? Everyone else in this game is capable of reading.
You're not telling us what YOU mean when you say you know why Suwako was voting for you.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 04:43:55 PM
Kiro: They both appear to be at 5.
Can I petition Anthony voters to move to Tenshi? Anthony will at least post, and who knows, he may pull something out of his ass that shows towniness. Tenshi is a completely useless lump that will remain a completely useless lump for the rest of the game.
Pesco: I mean that I read the reasons Suwako provided them and understood them.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 04:45:28 PM
Present. Fine with either lynch, but I'd prefer Tenshi right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 22, 2009, 04:46:28 PM
Affinity 410 re Tenshi vs. Anthony is about how I feel if we have to choose between them.
Rou 412 is rich
Serpy 414 makes sense...until you look at "two scum bandwagons is only statistically unlikely". Given the interactions between VgT and Suwako, do you think Suwako is scum?
Rou 416 practically states he himself is scummy. Yeah, you were the first of those 4 straight votes!
418 is a fair explanation for Angel Milk being scum showing a Suwako town.
Oh hey, Affinity 419 sees that thing I mentioned.
425 is terribad. Oh, it's Tenshi. No wonder. And he outs what could be a power role. Thanks a lot, Ten. Seriously. I'm suddenly less unenamored with his lynch.
The only problem with Kiro 434 is the CHEEEEEEEEENSAW that revved up with his Suwako/VgT behavior.
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Haven't YOU disregarded secondary suspects like Nietz and Pesco and haven't YOU suddenly reduced Day 1 to a 2-lynch race in part by not, say, unvoting if you thought that the pressure was going out of control? And if you think that way, why aren't YOU questioning the people on the bandwagon yesterday as having disregarded these secondary suspects like me and... yourself? This admission makes it seem as if you never really thought that Suwako was scummy enough to be lynched and if so, why didn't you unvote in favour of someone else?
This is quite good. IIRC he found Anthony scummier than Suwako and swapped onto Suwako...I think Anthony's alignment may tell us a bit about rou, actually.
Anth 436: WHAT PREVIOUS REASONING ON SERP!? Wasn't that...EVERYONE ELSE'S reasoning?
Quote from: Rou
Besides, by that time there was now a good deal of pressure on Suwako, and removing my vote at that time would've led people to believe I was trying to start a wagon and then disassociate myself with it when it got hot.
So, basically, you are more concerned with your appearance to others than proper scumhunting?
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Well, we didn't agree with UncertainKitten's Lynch.
Actually, you started that wagon for reals
Actually, Rou (449), moving your vote gives a better vote history so we can track your actions at a glance. Just sayin'
I'd like to ask Pesco if he thinks Rou is scum. I see a lot of tangling and few opinions.
Don't follow pesco 456. How does this confirm them?
Serpy 459: I await it.
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I miss the old UK
:dealwithit:
477 is bad, Zak. Sure, we won't forgive you. So drop it and scumhunt.
Most of the last page gives me a headache. It's mostly just "well, I think this but let's lynch Anthony/Tenshi"
And done.
Yeah, I'll ##Unvote, Vote Anthony, but state a large preference for Rou lynch still exists.
And Kilga, on the flip side, my view is that Anthony has been more actively scummy. Tenshi feels too unopposed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 1) - Suspicion~
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 04:49:34 PM
Edible's rules only account for a tie and not insufficient votes.
The wagons are 5 apiece right now. UK's vote makes the numbers if me and Kiro switch to Tenshi or you and Rou switch to Anthony.
Cut: Anthony 6, Tenshi 5
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 04:50:29 PM
Serp has been more actively scummy than Anthony though >_>
The other thing about Tenshi is that he's eventually going to be modkilled, which will be a completely waste of a day. At least in lynching him we will see who was willing to vote for him and who wasn't and can use that information.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 04:51:40 PM
Edible's rules only account for a tie and not insufficient votes.
"In the event of a majority not being reached, no Lynch will occur."
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 04:59:01 PM
@Mod: You said No Lynch-tan can be lynched once, so can she be vigged?
Personal bias says town on Rou, textbook facts say scum.
I'm assuming that the vote disabler suspects Anthony as scum, as disabling a scum vote would be the right play in their shoes. Scum doing it to themselves is going to generate WIFOM, I'm not putting any more stock in someone claiming it at this stage. They didn't come out and take responsibility when called, so it's simply too late for them to gain cred with it now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 05:00:31 PM
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So, basically, you are more concerned with your appearance to others than proper scumhunting?
I know for a fact that I'm not scum. If I make actions which can be seen as scummy, attention will be spent on me and thus Town suffers. Plus I never said at that point that the prod was still a prod. By that time I was genuinely very suspicious of Suwako, so I didn't really WANT to take my vote off. Affinity was the one who started saying that it was my responsibility to moderate the lynches, which is a bit of a straw man.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 22, 2009, 05:01:05 PM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 05:08:57 PM
Answer the question you modscum.
No Lynch-tan may only be lynched. Though I'd prefer if you didn't because it's No Lynch-tan and she's moe.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kiro on September 22, 2009, 05:11:03 PM
So we have the people here to swing it either way. I think the angle about Tenshi being modkilled is sort of irrelevant. Until Edible announces a course of action regarding that, it's not happening. If/when it does, we'll adjust. You can use this latest votecount from Edible to compare who preferred one over the other and the resulting flips to see what Scum were trying to do today. At the moment, either one is going to be lynched and we'll never see that dynamic in this game again so the current 6-5 count should suffice for opinions.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 05:15:29 PM
Edible DID announce a course of action regarding that.
Serp has been more actively scummy than Anthony though >_>
The other thing about Tenshi is that he's eventually going to be modkilled, which will be a completely waste of a day. At least in lynching him we will see who was willing to vote for him and who wasn't and can use that information.
I'll decide before I leave.
And yes. So has Rou. But I can't get either of their lynch, now can I? And I vastly prefer Rou at this juncture.
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I know for a fact that I'm not scum. If I make actions which can be seen as scummy, attention will be spent on me and thus Town suffers. Plus I never said at that point that the prod was still a prod. By that time I was genuinely very suspicious of Suwako, so I didn't really WANT to take my vote off. Affinity was the one who started saying that it was my responsibility to moderate the lynches, which is a bit of a straw man.
Nyeh, still, you should be more concerned about scumhunting IMO
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No Lynch-tan may only be lynched. Though I'd prefer if you didn't because it's No Lynch-tan and she's moe.
/r/ pic
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Serp on September 22, 2009, 05:24:45 PM
Well, drat. I stayed up too late playing Suika Fortress, dozed off, and forgot that this game's deadline is so early in the morning. There's no time to write up a full recap, but I'm not getting lynched and I really don't expect to get NK'd, so I'll save it for tomorrow.
I favor lynching Tenshi over Anthony for the same reasons Kilga has stated, but since it doesn't look like that's going to happen:
##Unvote ##Vote: Anthony
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 05:29:37 PM
Fuck it, I'm bored and pissed off and fucking tired of this day and this whole goddamn game and I want a flip.
Announcing intent to hammer in 10 minutes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 05:30:22 PM
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Nyeh, still, you should be more concerned about scumhunting IMO
If I felt Suwako was more supicious at the time, which I did, what reason would i have had to switch anyway? It started as a prod, and advanced to outright suspicion.
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I favor lynching Tenshi over Anthony for the same reasons Kilga has stated, but since it doesn't look like that's going to happen:
What? He's one vote behind.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 22, 2009, 05:31:47 PM
Tenshi is also not getting replaced, he will be modkilled and flipped along with today's lynch. I changed my mind about my modkill rules for this instance as Kilga's reasoning made more sense. We apologize for any inconvenience.
-Management
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 22, 2009, 05:32:13 PM
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If I felt Suwako was more supicious at the time, which I did, what reason would i have had to switch anyway? It started as a prod, and advanced to outright suspicion.
That does not jibe with what you said then. When you switched to Suwako you said Anthony was scummier and Suwako needed to be pressured.
Huh, well, that fixes everything, Edible ^-^.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 05:34:37 PM
Oh, well, okay then. Excellent.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Pesco on September 22, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
===[]
HAMMAH SLAMMAH
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 22, 2009, 05:38:26 PM
Minute early because I need to shower before heading off to work.
##Unvote: Tenshi ##Vote: Anthony
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 22, 2009, 05:39:21 PM
Welp, if Tenshi's getting modkilled then I guess Anthony's the way to go after all. :V
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That does not jibe with what you said then. When you switched to Suwako you said Anthony was scummier and Suwako needed to be pressured.
And by the time the wagon had formed Suwako was scummier than Anthony in my eyes. Still not seeing a contradiction.
*shuts up*
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 22, 2009, 05:44:11 PM
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And by the time the wagon had formed Suwako was scummier than Anthony in my eyes. Still not seeing a contradiction.
*shuts up*
I'll find the post. I think I get what you are saying. But I think I can find evidence otherwise.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 2) - Something Seems Familiar
Post by: Edible on September 22, 2009, 05:49:16 PM
Evil Magnum Anthony, playing Mima, Vanilla Ghost Town, met with the business end of a Proton Pack.
I HAVE NEVER REGRET WHAT I DID MY WHOLE LIFE
-Raoh
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Edible on September 23, 2009, 05:21:34 PM
Dawn of the Third Day
Kilgamayan, playing Aya Shameimaru, Town-aligned Townie Town Townie, With a Side Of Town, was found rammed head-first into a bird feeder.
Zakeri, playing ...
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Good evening, 5 Magic Stones. You were wandering around Gensokyo one d- wait you're a bunch of rocks, you don't wander. You were... sitting around Gensokyo one day, when you thou- okay, you're a bunch of rocks, you aren't sentient. You were sitting around Gensokyo one day, when someone came to you and sa- ... OKAY SERIOUSLY DO YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT ME TO WRITE FLAVOR TEXT FOR THIS FOR FUCK'S SAKE I QUIT
You are a Bunch Of Fucking Rocks. You don't do much of anything, but you DO win with the town! Best of luck.
... suffered a fatal game of hopscotch and could not return.
The vote count has been reset.
With 10 players left, it takes 6 to lynch. Fight!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 23, 2009, 05:23:46 PM
Fuck.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 23, 2009, 05:30:13 PM
Well, shit. There goes my case for today. :/
Time for a reread, then. Back later with a useful post.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Edible on September 23, 2009, 05:34:27 PM
Effective immediately, Kilgamayan is now a comod because I need one since I'll probably be gone all weekend.
Rise from your gwave!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 23, 2009, 05:46:33 PM
##Vote Serpentarius
The case on you from Day 2 still carries over into today including the weirdness stemming from your pursuit of Suwako. On another note, we've confirmed 3 Townies and 1 Scum voting for Suwako on Day 1 and these Townies were later on the wagon. If we continue to follow the Occam's Razor argument, the best place to look now is on the rest of that Suwako wagon and Serp is one of those people.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 23, 2009, 06:00:06 PM
I'm reminded of that one time when I said Rou was gullible enough to NK Kilga. I really feel like voting Rou right now.
Give me a while to reread Affinity before I decide to vote.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 23, 2009, 06:21:02 PM
Alright, player-by-player analysis coming up. Given that I managed to completely and utterly miss the Freshers' Fayre and am therefore a member of zero (0) clubs, I can afford to spend some time with this game. I'll try to tl;dr the notable players when I get the chance.
UK - again, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of UK is her 'Vote Anthony for being jumpy oh wait he's just a noob unvote'. The clear was iffy, and the failing to do anything with the vote afterward for a long time is also bad. Had the 'I don't read your walls' fight with Kilga, but since Kilga turned up Town I'm not sure if I can see any relevance in it. Still, she chose VgT at just the time when the Suwako lynch had tied with it (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg91687#msg91687), so being the swing vote there makes me unkeen to suspect her unless the conspiracy theories turn out to be right and Suwako's scum after all. Getting a Town read for now.
Nietz - Goes for Pesco D1 for hanging back, and eventually pulls another vote on VgT. Argued for Anthony's lynch on D2, admitting his Pesco case had come apart a little, but still seems awkward of him. Mild town read based on the VgT vote, and there's not much else to suspect him of right now.
Kiro - Was on VgT the whole day, then attacked Anthony. Hasn't really done anything to make him worth suspecting, to be honest. Town read.
Sodiphas - Another very early jumper on VgT, who quit afterward and therefore would've had no time to move the vote onto say Suwako. I'm feeling really bad about missing that one, to be honest. >_> Town read in retrospect, but Sodium needs to pick up in terms of activity today.
K4U - Goes for Anthony to start, but evens up the Suwako/VgT lynch later on. Goes back to Anthony D2, listing me and him as scum. I'm not sure if the subsequent tunneling of sorts on me is my fault or not for arguing the point so fervently, so I'll call it a nulltell for now. Another slight Town read.
Serp - I can't say much about Serp besides that he's really done nothing to improve his position from D2. His insistence on attacking Suwako well after the clear had been more or less explained is bad, and the positioning on said wagon is also awkward. Scum read.
Pesco - I very, very desperately want to be suspicious of Pesco for nagging at the smallest points he can find in several instances, but given that he was the vote that basically put VgT noticably ahead of the wagons on Anthony, me and himself, it's difficult to criticise him.
Affinity - Day 1 opens with an attack on Umu for pressing me, which is meh since that's about the only way cases will start up. Moves onto Kitten, then Suwako, making one point about VgT and never mentioning him again. This is especially odd since Affinity claims in said post that he doesn't appreciate VgT's tone or play. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90220#msg90220) On the opening of D2 he immediately links Anthony to VgT. 278 confuses me:
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Well, yes, weak case is scum, at least at the beginning of the day.
1. This was a point that Eliphas had made against him the day before which no-one had really followed up on. Why was he compelled to produce a defense against it? 2. The point itself is flawed from what I see. All starting cases are weak by definition because they have nothing solid to work with, so pointing the finger at the first person who tries to say something useful is pretty poor for Town. 378 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94349#msg94349) has him trying to clear Serp to me despite the fact I wasn't even voting him at that point. I'm getting very convinced that the Serp/Affinity scumpair is going on here.
Suwako - The clear has already been explained by Kilga, and my only theory otherwise was a Kilga/Suwako scumpair with the biggest case of Appeal to Authority I've ever seen. Since Kilga's flipped Town, though, I can be more confident in Suwako's affiliation now.
So yeah, that's my wall. tl;dr version following shortly.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 23, 2009, 06:24:57 PM
TL;DR
Serp is scummy for reasons that people have already laid out - his attack on Suwako, positioning on the wagon, and insistence on always keeping VgT second in his list of suspicions.
Affinity is scummy for simply ignoring VgT altogether, goes for Anthony and me through VgT links while clearing Serp for doing exactly the same, and the defense at 278 which feels pointless verging on paranoid.
Fine with either lynch today, unless something comes up that gives me reason to suspect someone else.
##Vote: Affinity (L-5)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 23, 2009, 09:41:55 PM
Well, Serp is still has his Day 2 case on him. Also, his Angel Milk vote had a general feeling of "Screw this, Angel Milk, die so I can live".
##Vote Serp
Other Thoughts: Kiro & Suwako are probably town @Edible: How the hell do 5 Stones play hopscotch? Messily. Affinity's somewhat scummy, but while Affinity had a bad Day 1, Serp had a bad Day 1 and 2. I think I may need a re-read of Kitten4u And Pesco too, because I seem to be lacking thoughts on them. Still think UK's case on Roukan is good, although Roukan has been getting better Nietz needs to exist on a more regular basis.
Oh, and assuming that all Deadlines are going to be on 2PM EST, I won't be here for them, seeing as I'll be at school. =V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 24, 2009, 12:59:49 AM
##Vote Serpentarius
I have two projects due and a test tomorrow, so I don't really have time to say much. It seems like Serp spent most of yesterday just trying to cover his own ass instead of scum hunting.
I'm still suspicious of Rou, but I don't think he's as bad as Serp right now. It looked like he was trying to scum hunt yesterday at least even if he did spend a large amount of it defending himself. That's more than I can say for Serp.
Affinity, you asked me what he was doing that made me think he was scum hunting, but I wasn't able to answer before the deadline. He was asking decent questions and making decent points. I thought that was a given when I said "scum hunting," unless you wanted me to point out specific posts or something.
Quote from: Rou
subsequent tunneling
I'm starting to get the feeling that tunneling is just in my nature. I've conciously trying to not tunnel, but I appear to be failing. At least I'm not as bad as I was last game. :V
Now looks like a good time for a full list o' suspicions, but I don't have time to do it right now. I'll try to get it up tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 24, 2009, 02:14:07 AM
Personal stuff's come up, I maaaay have to drop out. We'll see.
Serp looks pretty bad, the case is self evident, see Kilga yesterday, I would have switched to Serp rather than Anthony if I'd known Edible was going to change his mind on the modkill *fist shake*
I'm not too hot on the Rou case but I am lukewarm on it. The rage on day 1 read real and he's played a bit better since then but he's capable of pulling this off as scum so hrm.
My Pesco case from day 1 is dead... ... long live the Pesco case! That BS about "oh yeah votestealers are town" is C RAY ZEE. I didn't want to start a fight about it yesterday since there were more important cases and flips would help it out, but man I don't know. (PS I think it's safe to say the votestealer is scum) It could just be Pesco being Pesco, I understand he has a... unique and colorful history in this regard. To put it mildly. But I am realllllly not a fan... and then you bring in Affinity, who also looks kinda bad, and got all super paranoid about my day 1 Pesco votes.
I'm a little torn between going after Serp or digging into the Pesco/Affinity junk right now.
##Vote: Serp for right now just to make sure I have a vote. Everyone should lay something down to test.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Edible on September 24, 2009, 02:19:37 AM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 24, 2009, 02:20:34 AM
And my warning of impending L-2...is stopped by Suwako getting voteblocked. Excellent. :V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Nietz on September 24, 2009, 02:26:24 AM
Not much change in my opinions from Day 2 (except that I was obviously wrong about Anthony). I still have some rereads I neglected to do, but I'm too tired right now, so it'll have to wait until tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 24, 2009, 03:18:56 AM
@Rou:
Quote from: Rou
Not responding is scummy in its own way.
Quote from: Rou
This was a point that Eliphas had made against him the day before which no-one had really followed up on. Why was he compelled to produce a defense against it?
This is a direct contradiction to what your scumhunting philosophy seems to be, isn't it? I respond to whatever I like and don't to whatever I don't like, so I don't see why you should bring that point up in any way. Besides, your paranoia, with your numerous mistakes and bad scumhunting, is far worse that what I supposedly have in the first place, so what is wrong, exactly? Even if you suppose that I did make a mistake, how does it make me scummy in comparison to anyone else like yourself?
Quote
This is especially odd since Affinity claims in said post that he doesn't appreciate VgT's tone or play.
Tone of play has nothing to do with whether one is scum or not. I didn't appreciate UK's in the past either, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she was scum. I found Suwako more scummy, went for it, since he put in less effort than VgT and more glaring in my eyes than he was. Neither have you said anything about VgT much either, moreover, you just stuck him to the 6th in the suspicion list which did not mean anything. Again we have the 'I can accuse anyone else of not being on the VgT bandwagon except myself' mentality.
Furthermore, quote me on when I said that Serp was cleared in my eyes. Repeat it in red. I simply did not read him enough to find him scummy at that point in time, and was merely questioning you on what I found contradictory, which uhh, produced results. This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg96813#msg96813) has also lampshaded me finding him scummy.
---
Roukanken seems horrible for now, since this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg96870#msg96870) has confirmed that three-quarters of his 'scumhunting' (K4u take note) on day two has been rendered absolutely worthless from a 'mistake', going so far as to pin me and other people for things less serious. Contradicts himself more than the number of times I water my fields, and the latter is already quite a bit. Third lowest content to post ratio for D2 (behind Anthony and Angel Milk). Preferred lynch for today.
Sodium is merely piggybacking on a number of cases except for Kitten4u yesterday's with very little insight and elaboration, as can be seen by his short and unfulfilled promises to reread, with nothing original to his name, which shall be detrimental to him in the later days. By the way, how is my D1 'bad'? Seems to be the manifestation of everyone else's opinions but his own.
Suwako is haha for going back to pesco even after all his meaningless posturing yesterday about day 1 cases are day 1 and uses my questioning as a non-existent foothold for suspicion without explaining why it is scummier than say, 'contradictions on day 1'. He has also dumped his vote on Angel Milk for the majority of the day and has not commented anything on the existing cases of note on D2, other than 'it's good' for the Serp case. Also refuses to answer questions, and his Kilga suspicion from early D2 has faded away like Cirno in summer. Third scummiest even after considering D1; scummiest if not. Things like these (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg95392#msg95392) also give him no reason not to put forward the pesco 'case' on D2, since he had, uhh, nothing to say. Reactionary scumhunting.
Serp is horrible for focusing all his energy on the Angel Milk and Anthony cases when there was nothing left to analyze, resting his vote there while not commenting on the remaining players at all, which was more important for day two. Things pointed out by Kilga more prevalent now that he merely stuck a vote on Angel Milk the entire day without looking at flips; I could lump Suwako and Serp together in this regard, but bandwagon analysis from D1 favors the Serp case more. Second preferred lynch for today. Also does not answer Kiro's latest post against him.
Nietz is far better than Sodium despite the latter's hypocritical prod for him to post more. Is a little bit of a person trying to get under the radar with opinions which are reasonable but common enough. His D1 actions as pointed out by u-mu aren't very great due to wishy-washiness but that has not been done in D2, which is a plus point. Neutral for now.
pesco has done his fair share of piggybacking and cheerleading, but with valid contributions. Also, original analysis at points gives his opinion some weight. This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94534#msg94534) is an example.
UK I have no idea. Only person whose posts I have not completely read, but I would like to see her opinions today to get a better opinion.
Kiro is solid in his areas of suspicion, Anthony and Serp, but does not provide much outside that window. Opinions on other people would be greatly beneficial. Good questioning of Serp as well.
Kitten4u's analysis is slightly lacking; posts are concise and opinions original but without sufficient explanation. Better than Sodium. Neutral for now.
---
Therefore with willingness to switch to Serp if situations call for it,
##Vote Roukanken
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 24, 2009, 03:36:50 AM
This is a direct contradiction to what your scumhunting philosophy seems to be, isn't it? I respond to whatever I like and don't to whatever I don't like, so I don't see why you should bring that point up in any way.
It's more a matter of 'if you felt it was worth responding to, why did it wait until Day 2?'
Quote
Besides, your paranoia, with your numerous mistakes and bad scumhunting, is far worse that what I supposedly have in the first place, so what is wrong, exactly? Even if you suppose that I did make a mistake, how does it make me scummy in comparison to anyone else like yourself?
Perhaps in your position I'd be suspicious of me, but I've seen my role PM. I know I'm Town affiliated, and after my screwups for the first two days I've been doing my best to pick up the pieces.
Quote
Tone of play has nothing to do with whether one is scum or not. I didn't appreciate UK's in the past either, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she was scum. I found Suwako more scummy, went for it, since he put in less effort than VgT and more glaring in my eyes than he was.
It's more the fact that you never discuss him again after that that worries me. Was he really not worth at least discussing?
Quote
Neither have you said anything about VgT much either, moreover, you just stuck him to the 6th in the suspicion list which did not mean anything. Again we have the 'I can accuse anyone else of not being on the VgT bandwagon except myself' mentality.
And again, you defend yourself by attacking me. Get this - I'm willing to admit that I screwed up on VgT. Nothing I can do about it now but move on. I'm willing to argue that I haven't linked myself as closely to Serp as you have, either.
Quote
Furthermore, quote me on when I said that Serp was cleared in my eyes. Repeat it in red. I simply did not read him enough to find him scummy at that point in time, and was merely questioning you on what I found contradictory, which uhh, produced results. This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg96813#msg96813) has also lampshaded me finding him scummy.
Again, was he so un-scummy that he was worth not mentioning? And I don't see any reference to Serp in the linked post, anyway. T_T
---
Affinity's habit of throwing in the 'WELL YOU'RE DOING IT TOO' clause into his defense isn't improving him in my eyes. Maintaining my vote.
Anyway, it's like 4:30 am over here. The roommates have stopped singing, so I'm gonna get some sleep. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 24, 2009, 05:03:41 AM
Quote
And I don't see any reference to Serp in the linked post, anyway. T_T
Serp has not voted anyone other than Suwako and Angel Milk, which implies that he was one of the people I felt was most scummy.
Quote
It's more a matter of 'if you felt it was worth responding to, why did it wait until Day 2?'
Uh, day two? This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94349#msg94349) is my first day two post. Almost everything you have been doing this game has been throwing fairy dust at people. Post was the first one right after Eliphas'.
Perhaps in your position I'd be suspicious of me, but I've seen my role PM. I know I'm Town affiliated, and after my screwups for the first two days I've been doing my best to pick up the pieces.
I don't think you have. Either way, what you know doesn't really matter in any way.
Quote
It's more the fact that you never discuss him again after that that worries me. Was he really not worth at least discussing?
No he wasn't in my eyes. He was trying; felt he wasn't that scummy for the same way you did. Suwako was not. Neither was Anthony. Those were far more important to me on D1.
Quote
And again, you defend yourself by attacking me. Get this - I'm willing to admit that I screwed up on VgT. Nothing I can do about it now but move on. I'm willing to argue that I haven't linked myself as closely to Serp as you have, either.
Post I cited. You didn't admit the above until I questioned you thoroughly. Accentuating the negative doesn't help your case.
Furthermore, just as a criminal doesn't gain any cred for pointing out that someone else supposedly did the same thing they did while maintaining innocence, you don't either, especially if there is, uhh, more evidence against you along the same lines of reasoning. It's downright hypocritical, even. Your imaginary friends are also kind of grating and hint at you not reading.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 24, 2009, 05:21:45 AM
Suwako is haha for going back to pesco even after all his meaningless posturing yesterday about day 1 cases are day 1 and uses my questioning as a non-existent foothold for suspicion without explaining why it is scummier than say, 'contradictions on day 1'. He has also dumped his vote on Angel Milk for the majority of the day and has not commented anything on the existing cases of note on D2, other than 'it's good' for the Serp case. Also refuses to answer questions, and his Kilga suspicion from early D2 has faded away like Cirno in summer. Third scummiest even after considering D1; scummiest if not. Things like these (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg95392#msg95392) also give him no reason not to put forward the pesco 'case' on D2, since he had, uhh, nothing to say. Reactionary scumhunting.
You know, I'm just going to quote this for emphasis. Not to defend myself - there's nothing to defend myself from here - but as an illustration of Affinity. - STILL consumed with my day 1 Pesco case - Somehow doesn't grasp the difference between that Pesco case and the current one - In fact doesn't really grasp the current Pesco case at all but what can you do - Also failed to grasp the case on Angel Milk (and missed the comments I made on the other cases of the day but that's forgiveable... ish... okay not really but!) - Attacks me for no longer being suspicious of Kilga. (PSST: KILGA IS DEAD.)
I don't even know what the hell.
##Fakevote: Affinity
So I'm voteblocked, that's cute, I didn't get any sort of message about it.
Affinity and Pesco need to die, I think this puts them moderately over Serp. The only thing giving me pause here is that I would think scum would notice Kilga was dead if they killed him, but there are two kills and this game is nuts so who knows. Still down with Serp lynch too, it's still a good case even though it seems a bit mutually exclusive with the Affinity one. At least one of them is just a terrible townie but I ain't really up for betting on which, kill both. What all this really does is make me not inclined to buy into the Rou case at all today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 24, 2009, 05:59:40 AM
Quote
Attacks me for no longer being suspicious of Kilga
What I have been attacking you for that since D2. Misinterpretation and a dramatic showcase of how you fail to read the thread at all. Extremely laughable is the fact that I was referring what I did on day two.
Quote
Also failed to grasp the case on Angel Milk
Two posts? He didn't post much, thus he's scummy. His existing posts don't make sense. He didn't post anymore and yet you didn't comment on anyone else. Are you sure you're right about this.
Quote
STILL consumed with my day 1 Pesco case
Your actions in the game are nigh unreadable. You didn't drop the one on Kilga on D2 that was the point of the entire accusation.
Quote
In fact doesn't really grasp the current Pesco case at all but what can you do
Votestealers are town. One statement against many. What. You can't grasp air.
Quote
missed the comments I made on the other cases of the day but that's forgiveable... ish... okay not really but
Quote! None of them have any bearing do they. Only vague pointers on what you think and nothing more; unsupported opinions.
You don't make sense. Not one point of what you raised, in that post or that whole game, gives any semblance of scumhunting. More of reactionary screaming.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 24, 2009, 06:16:13 AM
Quote
Kilga looks pretty good to me.
Quote from: Kilga Vote
The heck you doin, camera crow? Rest of this crew's pretty hopeless but I kinda expected more from you here. YOU know what I'm talkin about here, why you sittin back and letting this go on? Either you're resigned or you're scum and I don't take resignation to be your style.
Quote
I still have my doubts on Kilga, in fact they're amplified by his picking Serpentarius as the case to champion today, but man talk about a day with low hanging lynch fruit
The last quote was never realised. This is a very strong testament to Suwako's superb lack of solidity for his opinions and his inability to hide it very well.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 24, 2009, 07:19:00 AM
Haven't done my reread yet. Affinity stirs my gut with what I mentioned yesterday about the Umu NK. This point could also apply to Rou too though.
Serp had something to say yesterday and claimed that he wouldn't be NK'd. So tell us what you were going to say.
Rou's list is just laughable as everyone appears to be town on it, except for obv suspects. At this stage, I don't see why both Kittens' vote jumps should be a free pass. There should be deeper reading going on there.
And let's not forget that Nietz is playing too. Very quiet chappy there.
##Vote Rou in the meantime.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 24, 2009, 07:32:25 AM
Quote
Rou's list is just laughable as everyone appears to be town on it, except for obv suspects.
If you think going for obvious suspects is scummy, then why didn't you press Kiro or perhaps Suwako yesterday for going for Angel Milk and Anthony? Not that I think Rou's list is very good; it confirms that his entire day two play has been a ploy or at the very least useless all along due to him dropping even the non-bandwagon reliant points against Sodium. But then again, I don't think it's a good reason for a vote.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 24, 2009, 07:49:44 AM
Notice that his list basically amounts to not actively scumhunting.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 24, 2009, 07:58:20 AM
Time now for the actual Day 3 reread to consider things as a whole.
---
To start, Rou does not see the early "case" on VgT in #91 even after VgT unvotes his joke vote and leaves it idle in #86. Also remembered why I found him suspicious and with Anthony's Town flip, he's back near the top along with the points he replied to in #143 where he was distracted by Pesco and didn't initially vote Anthony. Not that strong of a reason because that was all RVS, and am still a little doubtful about Pesco irritating you in RVS especially for using the crack fic.
Also, Sodium piped up in #351 and you don't bother to address his post after voting him in Day 2. Dunno why you wouldn't make a comment of sorts if he's your scum pick at the time. You pretty much placed your vote on him and never pursued it farther which feels unusual.
#367 suddenly takes me back to one of those first scumtells I was introduced to here at MotK. If you're doing Townie things, you're likely Town. If you go out of your way to do Townie things, you're likely to be Scum. And Rou taking the time to drop the Anthony case because there were enough votes on it to prod Suwako definitely fits into the latter.
The confession in the first part of #369 is bad. Why are you continually trying to defend yourself with missing VgT that you even had to use that reason. I've done similar things in previous games but I never actually admit them in game. It seriously looks like you're trying to wipe the stigma of missing VgT off you, but the thing is that it never goes away. Other Townies have to deal with it too so it's a little telling you've taken a lot of effort to do the same, especially in periods where you haven't had a lot of votes on you. Your #547 in Day 3 continues this and yet you get on Affinity's case for not talking about VgT after a certain point in Day 1. Hypocrisy.
---
In Affinity's #160, I'm not sure I see Affinity ignoring VgT being as bad as Rou makes it out although it's still a blotch. I think at least Serp and Rou look actively worse, for ranking it #2 and #6 respectively as we've seen Townies actively miss it. Also wanted to point out his switching to Rou in #419. Makes all the right points which I'm only finally acknowledging. It also was not advantageous if he is Scum because it drops Anthony into a tie with Tenshi at 3, and brings Rou up to 2 along with Serp unless Rou also happens to be Town. At this point, both Affinity and Rou have been going after each other and with Scum gaining momentum in numbers, I'm not thinking they're buddies, especailly if Serp is also Scum with them. I have far less of a problem with his posts than Rou and I feel he's been more actively scumhunting rather than worrying about spending time on defense.
---
Don't have too much of a read on Epiphas but there is early defense/waffling on VgT and Rou. Would look bad if Rou flips Scum. His #90 is a little contradictory, half defending Rou and then tacking on that Rou needs to chime in more with ideas/scumhunting. I knew he voted VgT early, but now that I read it again, it's a rather sudden reversal from his earlier views and comes on quite strong, maybe almost too strong. The point I made about Rou/Sodium interaction above gives some suggestions they are a possible scumpair along with VgT. Since my main suspicion is dependent more on scumbuddy flips rather than Epiphas/Sodium's own posts, I'll leave this case for now and revisit it later.
Pesco has pressed Rou constantly through the game for a variety of good reasons in addition to voting VgT. About the only thing that is really odd is that he never actually votes Rou
Cut: until just now,
but I'll wait for a Rou flip before fully judging that.
UK has done the same as Pesco above, but has actually voted Rou on several occasions. Seeing nothing wrong with her atm so she's not on my radar unless we see a Rou Town flip.
Nietz probably should post more, but I think he was the most crucial swing vote in Day 1 to VgT. Looks quite good in that regards and I haven't had an issue with his posts despite some people thinking so in Day 1. I am not going to press him at the moment.
K4U was a similar swing vote for VgT earlier in Day 1 and I also am not having as much of a problem with her posts.
I am not getting Suwako's choices at all right now. Figurative Vote on Affinity is weird, for misconstruing certain parts of Affinity's thoughts on him. Also, I don't see how Pesco's comment about votestealers being a Town role makes Pesco scummy. I actually think it could be either/or as I touched on it at the end of my #434. In essence, I'm not going to worry about it or who that role has affected. Your reasons for being suspicious of both Affinity and Pesco are not that good imo. Also, saying "at least one of Serp/Affinity is just a terrible townie, but I ain't really up for betting on which, kill both," is a fucking lousy statement. I'm not sure if Serp is planning on going for you again today, but you're sure validating any reason he may have for doing so.
---
Still down for the Serp lynch who hasn't even given us a token post yet. I know he's busy with Suika Fortress, but this is pretty much lurking which he even railed about in previous games. Just not seeing him act as a Townie. Pegging Rou as second to Serp now. Depending on flips in the future, I'd probably pursue either Sodium or Affinity.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 24, 2009, 10:35:02 AM
Skimmed Affinity's posts in isolation. Seems fairly consistent, but I'm not happy with my read. I mean I need to look at it more carefully when the text isn't blurring in front of my eyes.
Mostly fairly consistent stuff, I think his attacks on Rou yesterday look okay.
Well, drat. I stayed up too late playing Suika Fortress, dozed off, and forgot that this game's deadline is so early in the morning. There's no time to write up a full recap, but I'm not getting lynched and I really don't expect to get NK'd, so I'll save it for tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 24, 2009, 11:29:50 AM
You know what? I give up. I'm out of defenses. I keep screwing up so often, that I'm really left with only one explanation for all of this.
I'm a moron.
Trying to act as though I can recover is just getting Town tangled up in an argument it doesn't need. I'm an idiot, deal with it.
The irritating thing is I'd be sort of okay with this is I was scum, because if scum didn't make mistakes the game would be unwinnable, but I'm not. I'm basically singlehandedly screwing the Town over, so maybe the best solution is to take myself out of the equation as soon as possible.
Lynch me if you think I'm scummier than Serp is. I'm Town, but obviously none of you believe that. Even if you did, I'd be a liability at Lylo anyway given that I apparently can't play this game for shit. >_> I'm actually incredibly tempted to self-vote, but that's just plain working against your faction. I'm tired of trying to rectify my screwups, because every mitake is followed by another. If being an idiot is a scumtell, hang me high.
I'm really sorry, Edible. I'm having a really hard time IRL right now, and all the stress from Mafia is just making it worse. Or maybe this is just the final conclusive piece of evidence that I'm actually one of the worst players here and I just haven't had the nerve to accept it.
Now I've spent so long writing this post I'm probably going to miss the bus for my next lecture. Joy.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 24, 2009, 09:02:27 PM
Vote Count: Beyond the Rim Edition Serpentarius (3): Kiro, Sodium, Kitten4U Affinity (1): Roukanken Roukanken (2): Affinity, pesco
Not voting: UncertainKitten, Nietz, Serpentarius, Suwako Moriya
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have a little over 44 hours remaining.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Nietz on September 24, 2009, 09:04:34 PM
Okay, no matter how much I think, I'm still with the same suspects as yesterday, Serp, Rou and Aff. So far I'm not really sure which of Rou or Affinity would be in second place, but Serpentarius is a clear leader. Nothing he said D2 made him look better, and looks like he was just hoping Anthony or Milk to make better lynches out of themselves (which actually happened). The fact that he hasn't even posted despite being the main case today gives me the impression he's just hoping for his case to go away somehow.
##Vote Serpentarius (L-2, right)
Also, where's UK?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 24, 2009, 09:53:38 PM
Or maybe this is just the final conclusive piece of evidence that I'm actually one of the worst players here and I just haven't had the nerve to accept it.
Roukan. You can't be the worst player when we have our good friend Wrathie here. Oh, and various other people too. No Offense Wrathie, in case you're reading this.
Oh, and AtE post. Rou's meta'd "I'm an idiot" post. Does it every game, null tell, or possibly meta abuse, but I doubt that.
Kitten4u re-read: Most important thing is that I don't think Kitten is scum because: VGT vote to move VGT above Suwako Day 2 huntan. Only thing really wrong is the Meta Clear/Suspicion Post, but I doubt that'll be worth anything unless one of the people in said post gets a flip. That being Pesco and I.
Pesco re-read: Lets see, first wagon(expected), fight with VGT, votes VGT, dislikes Rou's play this game, votes Rou Day 3. I don't see Pesco being scum after his scuffle with VGT, and if Rou's scum, I'd say that Pesco's pretty townie, unless he's trying to kill all his team mates.
Serp: needs to post. If he's trying to survive, he's not doing it properly.
Affinity: You didn't talk about a flipped scum much during Day 1. That's scummy. However, everything else you did wasn't really scummy at the time of my post. Also, why do you think Suwako is scum, despite how he's basically confirmed from Day 1?
Roukan: What happened to "scumhunting=best defense"? =V Oh, and the "I'm willing to admit x mistake" doesn't really mean much.
Nietz: Any other opinions? That post was essentially your previous post, except more detailed and with a vote. And asking where UK is.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 24, 2009, 10:10:27 PM
Roukan: What happened to "scumhunting=best defense"? =V Oh, and the "I'm willing to admit x mistake" doesn't really mean much.
Considering that all of my efforts at scumhunting simply cause me to make more, dumber mistakes, it's practically at the point where not trying is actually better for Town since you're getting less distracted by my stupid arguments. T_T
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Serp on September 24, 2009, 10:36:36 PM
Alright, I'm here for my promised post.
Before I talk about which case I prefer, I have one gripe about Kiro: D2, you said that the bunch of early kneejerk votes on Suwako could well be townie motivated, but that since VgameT was scum, his scumbuddies would be most likely pile on the most plausible townie wagon to save him. But, aside from VgameT himself, the last three people to jump on Suwako's wagon have all flipped town. If the early votes on Suwako were unlikely to be scum since there were more plausible mislynches to go after, and the later votes on Suwako are almost all proven not scum, then the wagon on Suwako looks like it was made almost entirely of townies. In that case, why are you clearing Suwako?
As for Rou, I don't see anything scummy in his D1 conduct. D2, though, he started to come apart. Firstly, his case on Sodiphas would've been bad even if VgameT's vote wasn't an OMGUS, it's a standard tactic for doomed scum to tie themselves to a random townie by way of vote. See: Zengar, last game, with his vote on me. Secondly, Rou stays on me for "being inactive." I dropped the ball late D2, and I've taken too long to open up D3, I admit, but on D1 I was producing plenty of content. Thirdly, he tries to backtrack on his Suwako vote, claiming that he didn't really think that Suwako was scummiest, in his 367. Fourthly, he treats being early on the Suwako wagon as a scumtell, despite the fact that if he saw legitimate reason to do so, he should expect others to see legitimate reason to do so. Now, he collapses and throws in the towel. I'm hoping that he puts it together before the end of the day, whether we end up lynching him or not.
As to Suwako, I was certainly tunneling on him yesterday. Most of that probably came from irritation at people giving him a full clear due to no action of his own. At the time, there was no reason to believe that Tenshi and Anthony were town and Kiro's stated theory was wrong. I should have settled for voicing a "not clear" opinion of him, but I was too caught up in my D1 case. Now, though, I think it's pretty clear that VgameT's flip doesn't clear him, and the flips we've gotten so far from his wagon don't clear him. So, let's take another look.
What jumps out at me about his 207 is that he dismisses the cases on Anthony, UncertainKitten, and VgameT, all together. Yet, he also singles out the VgameT as only being meaningless "for the most part," and keeps his throwaway vote on Pesco. This was while VgameT was at four votes, and there were a couple of runners-up at two votes each. 261 is another blanket dismissal those three cases. 274 he jumps from a throwaway vote on Pesco to a throwaway vote on Kilga, and then tries to derail the VgameT wagon by calling its premises into question over the next few posts.
D2 we don't have much to work with from him, since that was when we all decided to cull the lurkers. The justification for going after Angel Milk was fine, of course, but since that ended up resulting in a mislynch, it's a null tell. And D3, he puts suspicion on myself, Roukanken, Pesco, and Affinity. Keeping your options open, eh? The point that at least one of myself and Affinity must be town, so let's lynch them both with presumably only two mislynches before a scum victory is, as has been pointed out, bad.
##Vote: Suwako Moriya
Roukanken would be my secondary case, if I absolutely must switch to secure a lynch other than myself. Coming into this day, I was seriously considering pulling a Zaknut from GWU and letting myself get mislynched after putting a bunch of analysis out there just so the town would have better odds and more information in LyLo, but on second thought, I'd rather lynch the scum in front of me.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 24, 2009, 10:38:59 PM
@Rou:
No you're not one of the worst players on the site; you had your moments of glory as scum that I remember. However, you're not consistent and prone to these sort of breakdowns. I'm sorry if I have been too forward with accusations, but no, you still have to play the game and vote who you find scummiest despite mistakes. Like chess; my opponent won with a rook down. But yeah you are still scummy unless you can do something useful.
---
@Sodium:
Because without D1, Suwako would be totally scummy by my book. Reactionary scumhunting, ignoring of questions, expert piggybacker, playstyle advocater... all these manage to counterbalance the town cred that he got and make me consider some sort of weird gambit on scum's part, and that's difficult. Fact that most of the Suwako bandwagon has already flipped town too doesn't make this too crazy a possibility. Your token reread is okay, but too many rereads and too reliant on day one actions without the analysis of day 2. Lots of maybes too.
---
Nietz's vote is really, really lazy. Wasn't really aware that me and Rou were your secondary suspects too, but okay. More thoughts on why me and Rou are scum please. Will read Serp later.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 24, 2009, 10:47:07 PM
Quote
Also, where's UK?
Besides sick of reading this game? Around. I might post before I go to bed tonight. Yesterday I was not online at all though.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 24, 2009, 11:44:21 PM
Only because you made mistakes afterwards. With perfect play, there's no way in hell you should lose when you're a rook up unless you get an insane positional advantage for it. As in forced mate.
Hence, it's meta-gambit time. I have no idea what's going on in terms on content, so my only hope is to look beyond...which takes me right back to my original suspect. Yes, I'm disregarding everything my old cases were running from, but yeah. >_>
##Unvote: Affinity Vote: Suwako Moriya
Serpentarius has been trying far, far too hard to go for Suwako. Presenting it here as his D3 case when it's basically the big reason he's being voted for is really the kicker. It shows that he really doesn't seem that concerned with his own survival, rather with focusing on his own suspect. Note also that he went for Suwako ahead of the two obvious lynches, Anthony and Tenshi.
There's tunneling to promote a scum cause, and there's tunneling with good intentions. That at least has me worried that he might not be as obvscum as I thought.
And I never thought hard enough about the situation. VgT was acting too obviously scummy, still staying neutral well after he'd been told 'get an opinion or we're bandwagonning you'. At the same time, Suwako was simply disregarding the entirety of the D1 wagons, but defended VgT when the time came to it, if only weakly. Later days he's posted little of use and attacked Kilga, who was one of the first guys to attack VgT. Surely as confirmed Town he should be trying his best to get his opinion out?
Think about it. Two players, neither of whom are especially new (indeed the cries of VgT being a noob should have caught my eyes earlier), both making relatively obvious scummy plays and making no effort to do anything about them. We assumed it was too good to be true, and the death of one caused the other to get cleared.
If I take the VgT case to be as townie as it is, then I'm only left with two real suspects. Namely, Serp and Affinity, and attacking them mostly for being on a wagon we're assuming is wrong might be arguable.
So, to conclude, I'm giving up on trying to go through this game page by page. I could sit here forever arguing semantics, playing by the book and getting called out on every little mistake, or I could go for the big move and go for the guy who's been scummy all game and got cleared on something which is a little too convenient. I've been doing the former all game, and it hasn't worked out for me, so it's time to give in to base instinct.
By this logic, Pesco raising the VgT wagon upward is no longer a clear. I don't have to feel bad about going for him anymore. Last scum...I'm not sure about, but this is all hanging off of Suwako being scum anyway.
tl;dr - If you're going to be wrong, be wrong and be whole-hearted about it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 25, 2009, 12:12:46 AM
Serp: when I said early votes on Suwako, I'm really only referring to the first vote: Rou. The wagon had to get kickstarted somehow and with Suwako intentionally being uncooperative, you could figure the first vote might come from a Townie.
But since you've finally come out with your post and a vote, time to put forward some points I hadn't mentioned yet. I've been thinking about the 2 NKs that occurred last night. A second kill suggests a Vig or an SK. First off, Kilga was almost certainly not the target of a Town Vig. That's just too ridiculous to even suggest. The funny thing is that I don't think Zakeri would be the target of a Town Vig either. The only one who would do that is Rou as Zakeri was the "lynch he could not have." But I'm almost certain with the Day 2 double Town flip of Anthony and Tenshi, no Townie Vig would intentionally take out either of the 2 people voting for Serp in Day 2. Rather, any Town Vig there would probably have shot Serp instead as there was more information to be gained from it and he was #2 or #3 on pretty much everyone's list. Short of it is, I think there's an SK or at least Scum with 1 Vig in the game.
Furthermore, I can see Suwako as an SK. He acts up in the beginning but gets a pass from people like Kilga for admittedly decent reasons while riling up certain players. Plays daringly and gets a clear when the opposing wagon is Scum. Everyone says he's all anti-Town since then but the Day 1 Occam's Razor scenario is holding them back. But I don't think it should anymore as it's entirely possible for anyone to pursue Suwako in Day 1 if he were SK with Suwako banking on surviving. Heck, his lack of a self-defense vote against VgT is beyond weird and doesn't fit as Townie play no mather how apathetic he was.
Pretty much, I'm still convinced there was at least one other "scum" on Suwako's wagon as they would make "some" effort to save VgT that way if Suwako is an SK. Serp is not cleared for pursuing a possible Suwako as SK because it also tries to save VgT at the same time. Rou and Affinity are still there as well. Pretty much waited for Serp's case today before bringing this up and it makes Serp look better and Suwako look worse. I have to do a more thorough reread now that Serp has continued to push Suwako in what would presumably be suicidal for Mafia Serp to do. The last possibility is that he and Suwako are buddies anyways and that Serp is sacrificing himself to pretty much ensures Suwako rides clear to endgame. Rou and Affinity may or may not fit into this equation.
There's too much weirdness with Suwako now and I need to do another reread and consider other people's comments to the above theory to re-decide on what's the best lynch for today.
@Mods: Are Scum and possible SKs required to kill every night? I won't clarify this. <3
Cut by Rou: I'm surprised in a possibly good way that you decided to switch to Suwako before this post came out. Gonna go home shortly and get that reread in.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Nietz on September 25, 2009, 12:25:22 AM
Well, I'm interested in both Rou's and Kiro's theories, especially because I've pretty much out of new insights on the situation. I'm waiting to see how the involved parties respond to it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 25, 2009, 12:56:41 AM
Nietz: I think you should provide more than a token statement like that. The whole thing is somewhat convoluted. And in the case Suwako flips Mafia, pretty much nobody can be cleared anymore. If you have time to toss out that quick 2 line sentence, I think you have time to give us your updated opinions on who you think is Scum. After all, Serp has finally replied now so there ought to be something you can talk about.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 25, 2009, 01:37:43 AM
Rou. Come on. Let me recap today for you:
Me: "Serp is pretty scummy and the obvious lynch, but there's something fishy going on with Pesco and Affinity." Affinity: *horrible arguments throwing mud at me and Rou* Me: "Okay yeah Affinity/Pesco needs to be resolved, the Rou case is BS" Two people vote Rou. Who are they? Surprise, surprise, Affinity and Pesco! HMMM. Rou: "OH GOD A TRAIN ON ME I'M A HORRIBLE PLAYER WHAT DO I DO I'M SO SCARED THINKING IS HARD SO I'MMA GO BACK TO MY DAY 1 CASE" and votes me. What.
- Serp should have been lynched yesterday, Anthony being pushed over him was BS (and the Angel Milk modkill was botched horribly but there's nothing to do about that except shake fists at Edible. The alternative would have been worse for you, deal with it.) This rings no bells to anyone?
- Scum are being quite obvious with their killing and voteblocking patterns, taking out the intelligent players (UU, Kilga) and throwing voteblocks on the people they want lynched (Anthony, me). This rings no bells to anyone?
There's no response I can make to Rou's "case" on me because it is not really a case, as he himself has said. I beg reconsideration. Serp's and Affinity's at least have arguments... albeit from the two scummiest players alive, and quite horrible ones that boil down to "Suwako MOVED CASES and CHANGED SUSPICIONS as time passed!" Why yes, I certainly did, this is a good thing to do, I thought that was self evident?
But I guess you can never underestimate MotK Mafia. :eyeroll:
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 25, 2009, 01:48:51 AM
Changing opinions for no discernable reason at all is bad. This is so for your 'suspicion' against Kilga.
Not explaining exactly why everything I said against you and Rou is horrible is bad. Why, you are good and we are bad because you're not from MotK. How infallible.
Thinking that I'm scummy for pushing a case on you that is supposedly 'bad' while going against your D1 creed that 'contradictions aren't necessarily scummy, scum can play protown, etc.' is horrible, even overlooking your reactionary scumhunting.
Reactionary scumhunting is bad.
Not making an effort to 'grasp' our cases and happily burning self-made strawman dolls is bad.
It's quite obvious, isn't it?
##Unvote ##Vote: Suwako Moriya
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Edible on September 25, 2009, 02:03:24 AM
- Scum are being quite obvious with their killing and voteblocking patterns, taking out the intelligent players (UU, Kilga) and throwing voteblocks on the people they want lynched (Anthony, me). This rings no bells to anyone?
This means one of two things. - Scum is so stupid they're making the most obvious choices possible. I honestly don't see any of the currently surviving players as that bad. - Scum is trying to be clever and ACT stupid so that they can pin hits on easy targets.
Quote
There's no response I can make to Rou's "case" on me because it is not really a case, as he himself has said. I beg reconsideration. Serp's and Affinity's at least have arguments... albeit from the two scummiest players alive, and quite horrible ones that boil down to "Suwako MOVED CASES and CHANGED SUSPICIONS as time passed!" Why yes, I certainly did, this is a good thing to do, I thought that was self evident?
So your inability to go for anyone other than Kilga, utter disregard of the VgT case on D1, and general opinion of 'you guys all suck' rather than actually contributing aren't relevant?
Quote
But I guess you can never underestimate MotK Mafia. :eyeroll:
Calling Suwako as Moogy right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 25, 2009, 02:52:35 AM
Changing opinions for no discernable reason at all is bad. This is so for your 'suspicion' against Kilga.
- Kilga got overshadowed by the rest of the day and my suspicions of him abated. He pushed Serp so hard that I thought he might be a cop, and the countertrain that popped up, Anthony, was worse than his case.
Not explaining exactly why everything I said against you and Rou is horrible is bad. Why, you are good and we are bad because you're not from MotK. How infallible.
- You're still fixated on day 1 and early day 2 cases. You think trying to play gotcha games and finding "contradictions" is a good way to find scum. (It's not. In fact quite the opposite. Scum have more information than town, so it's easy for them to avoid such missteps, and adhering to these views is only going to force townies into lockstepping and being unable to change their minds or drop cases. Eeeaaasy scum win if town buys into this.)
Thinking that I'm scummy for pushing a case on you that is supposedly 'bad' while going against your D1 creed that 'contradictions aren't necessarily scummy, scum can play protown, etc.' is horrible, even overlooking your reactionary scumhunting.
- You ARE scummy for pushing a bad case, see above.
- You have not even defined what this is, let alone why it is scummy or how I am supposedly guilty of it. The obvious definitions don't really seem to apply given that I've been making more waves and causing more action than any other single player in the game. I was the first and most aggressive player on Angel Milk yesterday, the only person looking into you and Pesco today, and the only voice of suspicion on Kilga earlier (even though I was wrong about that.)
Not making an effort to 'grasp' our cases and happily burning self-made strawman dolls is bad.
- This doesn't even mean anything.
As to Rou... "inability to go for anyone other than Kilga" what in the? Affinity's trying to attack me for leaving my suspicions of Kilga behind, for crying out loud. VgT case I disregarded because I thought scum wouldn't be that bad on day 1. They were. (Compare to your "scum wouldn't be that obvious" now. They are.) And contributing? You're probably town, Affinity/Serp/Pesco need to get lynched, I've been saying this all day, there's probably a lurking scum somewhere (Nietz or one of the kittens? Just offhand.)[/]
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 25, 2009, 03:19:20 AM
You think trying to play gotcha games and finding "contradictions" is a good way to find scum. (It's not. In fact quite the opposite. Scum have more information than town, so it's easy for them to avoid such missteps, and adhering to these views is only going to force townies into lockstepping and being unable to change their minds or drop cases. Eeeaaasy scum win if town buys into this.) And once again, we get the age-old advice of 'scum are totally perfect, don't look for the mistakes that they might make'. If we don't point out contradictions what ARE we supposed to look for? Disregard every case that gets brought up and point fingers at the guy who's 'hanging back'?
Not making an effort to 'grasp' our cases and happily burning self-made strawman dolls is bad.
- This doesn't even mean anything.
Really? I read it as 'you write people's cases off as bad without bothering to explain why'.
Quote
As to Rou... "inability to go for anyone other than Kilga" what in the? Affinity's trying to attack me for leaving my suspicions of Kilga behind, for crying out loud.
I was referring to D1, choosing Kilga over VgT when Kilga was doing exactly what you were doing. Hell, he was clearing you for doing what he was doing.
Quote
VgT case I disregarded because I thought scum wouldn't be that bad on day 1. They were. (Compare to your "scum wouldn't be that obvious" now. They are.)
I'm not inclined to believe that. I don't honestly put down anyone here as being poor enough to make a play like that. Appeal to Authority.
Quote
Affinity/Serp/Pesco need to get lynched,
GJ accusing about half the players.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 25, 2009, 03:26:58 AM
I would laugh if Suwako was Moogy.
I still think that Suwako is town, although the possibility of Suwako being a SK brought up by Kiro makes sense, and not counting the "town clear", Suwako could be a good lynch. Still, Serp is probably a better lynch over all, imo, because Suwako is either town or SK/Other Third party at this point, while Serp is town or scum (or third party, but what's the chance of that?).
Nietz: Uh, could we have some opinions on not Serp, Suwako, Roukan or Affinity? Well, that's a good portion of the players, but you haven't really said much aside from "My stance hasn't changed" and "I am interested in the reaction" today. =V
UK needs a post. Some slack for not being on MoTK at all yesterday(according to her 564), but still. And anyone else that hasn't really posted yet.
Oh, and Suwako, making waves & causing the most action=/=town. And it's possible to have done so while being reactionary.
lolModAntics. Seems fun to be a mod.
Roukan Cut: Formatting Error/10. And 3=/=5 That'd be more valid if he listed 4 players. =V But I see your point.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 25, 2009, 04:39:20 AM
Quote
You ARE scummy for pushing a bad case, see above.
So why isn't Kiro scummy for pushing the Anthony case for example, which you call pitiful? It's reactionary scumhunting because you are only singling out the people who are having these supposedly 'bad' cases against you today. Don't think it's a coincidence.
Claiming cred for the Angel Milk case is also quite dubious and insignificant on the account that he was the obvious lynch for D2.
Quote
You're still fixated on day 1 and early day 2 cases
Would like to point out that you are yourself fixated on the early D2 case against Serp, and that you are supposedly cleared because of the result of these day 1 cases. And moreover, just as scum would ideally not make mistakes, neither would town, as can be seen by the play of whatever higher playergroup you come from; information doesn't play a part because Rou's missteps were based on not reading info available to everyone.
Furthermore, while I agree with you that contradictions are not necessarily scummy by themselves, they still have to be clarified and distilled, which was what I was doing on D2, to gain something coherent. Roukanken is scummy precisely because of the result of that distillation, which amounted to nothing, because he was pushing cases whose premises were non-existent. It could be taken as active lurking; the reason why you are overlooking it is because it's too scummy to be scummy, which is itself a fallacy.
---
@Sodium:
Quote
I still think that Suwako is town, although the possibility of Suwako being a SK brought up by Kiro makes sense, and not counting the "town clear", Suwako could be a good lynch. Still, Serp is probably a better lynch over all, imo, because Suwako is either town or SK/Other Third party at this point, while Serp is town or scum (or third party, but what's the chance of that?).
Fallacious reasoning. Consider probabilities, not just the possibilities.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 25, 2009, 05:30:20 AM
The definition of scum is that they have more information than town! Certainly, look for mistakes they may make, but that's nowhere near as simple as looking for "contradictions" that town can make just as (or more) easily. Look for behavior indicating a player is part of an informed minority trying to avoid their group's lynch.
Three players is neither "half" nor an unreasonable number to be looking at given that there are probably three scum left alive.
The case on Serp has remained valid in its fundamentals through every further post he's made, as opposed to other early cases which fade away as they do not continue to be supportable by the evolution of the game.
Rou's playing terribly and contributing basically nothing of worth (by his own admission, not trying to be inflammatory here) but that doesn't automatically make him scummy. He doesn't look like part of an informed minority trying to avoid lynch. I'm about 90% on him being town, and if he is scum after all he's played this remarkably and my legendary hat is off to him. Don't think so though.
The players I haven't been mentioning have all done scummy things - by day 3 of a mafia game, everyone has. They're just not top priorities for me because others are scummiER. Kiro is scummy for pushing Anthony, sure, but Kiro isn't also tied to Pesco and hasn't made crazytown arguments. I was hopping on Affinity/Pesco before Affinity decided to turn and start seriously arguing to lynch me.
As for probabilities... well, you're arguing that I'm either a scumbuddy of VGT or an SK. With me pulling this amount of attention to myself. If I was either of those things this would be pretty much the worst play ever. I've knowingly put myself in constant discussion of lynch and high probability of getting investigated by a cop or killed by a vig, because I've been expressing unpopular opinions that I nonetheless believe are right and the best things to pitch if town's going to win this. If I was scum of any sort I could have easily turned off the grandstanding, toned down the rhetoric, pitched in on cases quietly and blended in like a dirty Kanako-loving snake. Also I'm hit with votelessness, so in your theories that'd mean I'm either voteblocking myself (insane, as it would put me at even greater risk of being lynched) or I'm the SK and being voteblocked by scum (indicating they think I'm a threat, exactly the same as if I was town, so...) If you really want to believe in some crazy gambit that's your right (well, you're probably pitching it as scum, but so't goes) but presenting it as a probability?
Half the town isn't talking. That's bad. We need 6 of 9 voters to agree to actually lynch so there's going to have to be a compromise somewhere. (This is also why the voteblocking is bad times and a scummy as heck power.)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 25, 2009, 05:45:51 AM
Quickpost: Just clarifying that I'm asking Sodium to elaborate on the probabilities of whether Suwako is SK or town and whether Serp is scum or town instead of just stating the number of possibilities. It's a little like the Pascal's Wager fallacy in a way.
The problem with the above scumhunting philosophy is that scum can easily turn it around; deliberately act like an idiot, push bad cases with premises non-existent, and you won't get lynched with the above logic, turning this into a case of infinite regress. This is a familiar line of 'I'm not scummy because if I were scum, I wouldn't be doing this at all', which I think is WIFOM. Moreover, while I agree with you for looking for things that point to a person being part of an informed majority, pesco's 'crazytown' arguments don't seem to constitute that at all. Would like you to explain your case against pesco more clearly.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 25, 2009, 07:12:16 AM
Got caught up playing Tenhou (mahjong) so my reread is only half done. Gonna sleep on this and finish it up in the morning.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 25, 2009, 07:29:42 AM
Rou's pulling himself together now (maybe going home has some use albeit short term). I'm inclined to give him some redemption for it.
Kiro: What do you say to the chance of Serp being the SK? For meta reference, Touhou Remix (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.0).
Serp: How were you so sure that you were not going to be NK'd?
- Serp should have been lynched yesterday, Anthony being pushed over him was BS (and the Angel Milk modkill was botched horribly but there's nothing to do about that except shake fists at Edible. This rings no bells to anyone?
- Scum are being quite obvious with their killing and voteblocking patterns, taking out the intelligent players (UU, Kilga) and throwing voteblocks on the people they want lynched (Anthony, me). This rings no bells to anyone?
There's no response I can make to Rou's "case" on me because it is not really a case, as he himself has said. I beg reconsideration. Serp's and Affinity's at least have arguments... albeit from the two scummiest players alive, and quite horrible ones that boil down to "Suwako MOVED CASES and CHANGED SUSPICIONS as time passed!" Why yes, I certainly did, this is a good thing to do, I thought that was self evident?
I don't recall you making enough effort to convince us to lynch Serp yesterday. If were so against Anthony's lynch, you certainly weren't speaking up enough about it.
How sweet the WIFOM. I guess that makes you a dumb player since you haven't been NK'd and you got voteblocked.
I don't see why you can dismiss Rou's case like this. You've played vague all game, so fess up. Day 1 you didn't want to talk much, but by now we expect you to step up the content.
While you're there, give us a wall on both Kittens and Nietz. Maybe sexist bias should be scummy too :P.
I'll try get a readup on UK, K4U, Nietz and Affinity later today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 25, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
Quote from: Suwako
*Insert "If I were scum" WIFOM defense here*
-_-
--- Affinity: Well, I think that Serp has a greater chance of being scum then town, and when I made my post previously, I thought Suwako had a greater chance of being town then 3rd party(SK, etc.). Uh, the fact he's trying to defend with "NO SCUM WOULD PLAY LIKE I DID"(WHEEE WIFOM!), and his general defense is poor, is making me reconsider.
But the thing is is that scum still wouldn't let 2 scumwagons run on Day 1, so scum probably thought that Suwako was town or something, and I'm pretty sure possible scum(Serp) have lynching priority over possible SK. Unless I'm missing something that completely negates the Day 1 Suwako "clear"(I don't really think Suwako's play negates it). ---
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO NEED TO TALK. LIKE THE KITTENS. A SERP & ACTUAL NIETZ CONTENT WOULD BE FINE TOO.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 25, 2009, 02:08:00 PM
The definition of scum is that they have more information than town! Certainly, look for mistakes they may make, but that's nowhere near as simple as looking for "contradictions" that town can make just as (or more) easily. Look for behavior indicating a player is part of an informed minority trying to avoid their group's lynch.
For example, trying to argue that one of their fellow members shouldn't be lynched? Which you did on D1 with VgT?
Quote
Three players is neither "half" nor an unreasonable number to be looking at given that there are probably three scum left alive.
I'm more irritated in that you gave three people to lynch with no preference to any of them. Like you said, we need to compromise the votes somewhere down the line.
Quote
The case on Serp has remained valid in its fundamentals through every further post he's made, as opposed to other early cases which fade away as they do not continue to be supportable by the evolution of the game.
To throw your own words back at you, explain how Serp's play represents a player in an informed minority trying to avoid their lynch. He's either town tunneling you because he's got a good reason to suspect you, or he's scum tunneling to keep you in the clear. Since it's the main reason suspicion is falling on him, I'm of the opinion that Scum!Serp would have taken back his suspicions of you around the start of D2.
Quote
Rou's playing terribly and contributing basically nothing of worth (by his own admission, not trying to be inflammatory here)
So you admit to being inflammatory every other time?
Quote
As for probabilities... well, you're arguing that I'm either a scumbuddy of VGT or an SK. With me pulling this amount of attention to myself. If I was either of those things this would be pretty much the worst play ever.
WIFOM.
Quote
I've knowingly put myself in constant discussion of lynch and high probability of getting investigated by a cop or killed by a vig
Godfather.
Quote
If I was scum of any sort I could have easily turned off the grandstanding, toned down the rhetoric, pitched in on cases quietly and blended in like a dirty Kanako-loving snake.
WIFOM.
Quote
Also I'm hit with votelessness, so in your theories that'd mean I'm either voteblocking myself (insane, as it would put me at even greater risk of being lynched) or I'm the SK and being voteblocked by scum (indicating they think I'm a threat, exactly the same as if I was town, so...)
WIFOM.
Quote from: Sodium
But the thing is is that scum still wouldn't let 2 scumwagons run on Day 1, so scum probably thought that Suwako was town or something, and I'm pretty sure possible scum(Serp) have lynching priority over possible SK. Unless I'm missing something that completely negates the Day 1 Suwako "clear"(I don't really think Suwako's play negates it).
GODDAMN FREAKING WIFOM. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like, but in retrospect Day 1 was too easy. VgT and Suwako tried too hard to stand out, almost like they wanted to be lynched.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 25, 2009, 04:07:33 PM
There's still some people I should read better, but right now I'm pretty much set on Anthony, Serp and Rou in order of suspicions. Anthony's voteblock drama put him ahead, though I would be fine with the others as well.
##Vote Anthony
Something doesn't feel right over here. The best words I can think of to put it in is that Nietz made the vote without much reasoning ('voteblock stunt' as the main thrust). Checking his posts of today, Affinity was not a suspect from yesterday. So where does it come from?
I think a fresh post from UK will be more conclusive than rereading her masses of PBPAs.
The meat of Affinity's post that I've read through are back and forth between him and Rou. Don't really know what to think right now. Gut from here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94534#msg94534) has been nagging in my mind to do this reread and I can't pin anything down.
##Unvote ##Vote Nietz
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 25, 2009, 07:02:11 PM
Vote Count: Why Do People Insist On Voting Right After A Vote Count Is Posted? Serpentarius (4): Kiro, Sodium, Kitten4U, Nietz Suwako Moriya (3): Serpentarius, Roukanken, Affinity Nietz (1): pesco
Not voting: UncertainKitten, Suwako Moriya
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have >22 hours remaining.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 25, 2009, 08:01:56 PM
After this hellish reread (got really irritated by the mid of Day 2 and started zooming through the rest of it), here are my impressions of parties of interest right now:
---
Rou: I don't think he's Mafia. Starting up a Day 1 Suwako wagon, regardless of Suwako's alignment to save VgT is inefficient. In regards to the Night 2 NKs, while he might be the most likely to be a Town Vig due to being suspicious of Zakeri, the way he half breaks down in the middle of Day 3 is not consistent with someone who is a Town Power Role who might be asked to roleclaim at L-1. Given that, there is some chance he's an SK, as he went out of the way to pursue Suwako for possible Towncred. But at this point, the SK is lower priority and we're not certain yet if it is one. Another night with 2 kills would at least eliminate a Mafia vig as that's overpowered which is what I'd like to check first. Given overall play from the game, I'd lean Town more than SK. In other words, not worth lynching today.
---
Serp: During the reread, he is amazingly consistent with his thoughts on Suwako. His #222 vote on Suwako states he goes understands the idea of being concise, but Suwako goes beyond that and punctuates it with a comment later that what Suwako is doing might be weird as Scum, it's weirder as Town which is quite accurate when I get to the Suwako section. I can see Town Serp tunneling and Scum Serp not tunneling on Suwako from Day 2 on which is making me wary of lynching him right now. And his questions to me regarding how the Suwako wagon could be made up of all Townies is a good question. As for whether he's an SK, tunneling on Suwako keeps everyone's eyes on him which is no good. And he did say he didn't expect to die on Night 2 which suggests he might be bulletproof SK or does not expect a Vig to exist. Problem is that if he were the SK, I don't know why he'd toss that out. Seems more like an offhand comment. The choice of Zakeri also works against him as it subconsciously pins the likely Day 3 lynch to be himself. In essence, I think he's less likely to be an SK than Rou, but also a little less likely to be Town than Rou if that makes any sense.
None of this game makes sense anymore.
---
Suwako: Behavior is too weird to be straight forward Town. Scummy points against him include being willing to vote VgT in #158, but never doing so in all of Day 1. Keeps vote on throwaway Pesco, then Kilga and fails to move his vote to a meaningful wagon by the end of Day 1 which is anti-Town behavior and he was not opposed to the VgT lynch. Day 2 doesn't contribute much other than the vote for Tenshi.
Still down with Serp lynch too, it's still a good case even though it seems a bit mutually exclusive with the Affinity one. At least one of them is just a terrible townie but I ain't really up for betting on which, kill both.
Affinity/Serp/Pesco need to get lynched, I've been saying this all day, there's probably a lurking scum somewhere (Nietz or one of the kittens? Just offhand.)
If you want anti-Towness and contradictions, read those two above. Your idea of an existing lurking scum also contradicts your top 3 choices who have had content today. I don't care if you don't have a real vote, who do you think is best for today's lynch? You have not been helpful all game which is anti-Townie. And your defense as has been pointed out is pretty much WIFOM "Scum wouldn't do this" type arguments. You're also picking at minor things in your Pesco and Affinity case (Pesco says voteblocker could be Town, Affinity is mudslinging or something) which doesn't differentiate them from being Town or Scum.
---
Given that I have a Townie impression of Rou, an improving Townie impression of Serp, and on reread, a decent opinion of Affinity's actions through the game, I could fully see Town getting fortunate and actually bringing up 2 legit Scum wagons. Suwako as Scum may or may not have planned such a gambit, but with the way he's acting from the very beginning of the game, I really don't see him as any type of Townie right now.
In terms of responses to this development, Nietz has a bystander comment which reinforces gut suspicion that there may be something to this after all. I don't disapprove of Pesco's vote for Nietz at the moment. Lack of comments from other people is weird, especially a complete lack of contribution from UK in Day 3. I know CPMC is a fun place, but you're seriously slacking here. Not sure how to actually read Sodium's opinion on this topic. Could be scum covering or Townie obviously believing that and is neutral. At least a little better than Nietz' waffle.
Getting pushed off the computer now. May be willing to switch to Nietz as well, but I think Suwako is scummy and to get a better impression of a variety of people who have quieted down, I feel we should get this flip now.
##Unvote Serpentarius ##Vote Suwako Moriya
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Nietz on September 25, 2009, 08:31:39 PM
Ok, cutting straight to the point, I saw Serpentarius target Zakeri last night. Serp is obviously not a doctor or voteblocker, and there's nothing from him that even vaguely suggests an intent to vig or investigate Zak. Plus, his play has been consistently scummy in view of the flips so far, and to make matters worse he is avoiding posting (which is apparently working in driving attention away for him). So yes, I'm staying on him.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Serp on September 25, 2009, 09:25:05 PM
Quote from: Suwako Moriya
- You're still fixated on day 1 and early day 2 cases. You think trying to play gotcha games and finding "contradictions" is a good way to find scum. (It's not. In fact quite the opposite. Scum have more information than town, so it's easy for them to avoid such missteps, and adhering to these views is only going to force townies into lockstepping and being unable to change their minds or drop cases. Eeeaaasy scum win if town buys into this.)
The key to this tell is that the town is trying to find scum, and its players are supposed to air their thought process in public, while scum is just trying to look like they're scumhunting, and so they have to lie abuot their thought process. Sudden switches in opinion without a valid reason then look like scum either covering for a buddy, trying to get an easier mislynch, or just forgetting what they're supposed to have believed. It's a mistake that townies can make, but scum are more likely to make it.
Quote from: Pesco
Serp: How were you so sure that you were not going to be NK'd?
Well, I wasn't "sure," but since just about everyone had listed me as a secondary lynch, and an Anthony or Tenshi scumflip would only have made me look worse (by making Suwako look better,), I was counting on scum considering me the obvious D3 mislynch and going after someone that the town was less likely to take care of for them.
Quote from: Sodium
But the thing is is that scum still wouldn't let 2 scumwagons run on Day 1
Did you miss the part where I directly addressed this point? :V The D1 Suwako wagon is looking more townie with every lynch. Maybe scum decided to make the best of it and pile on VgameT, aiming for a Suwako clear.
Cut by Nietz: Well, that makes sense. Roleclaim time. I'm a vig who can only hit targets on evenly numbered nights. This is why I might have come across as a bit nonchalant in my choice between Suwako and Tenshi - whichever one was lynched, I was ready to vig the other that night. However, during my N2 reread, I decided that Zakeri was scummy for his D2 conduct in a similar way to how Suwako was scummy for his D1 conduct. I was also having second thoughts about the Suwako case itself - it was quite possible that I had piled onto the Suwako bandwagon alongside scum, and if any of them were scum, I figured it would be Zakeri.
So, care to tell us who you watched N1?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 25, 2009, 09:27:48 PM
Seconding N1 results before I decide to switch or not.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Suwako Moriya on September 25, 2009, 10:28:49 PM
Yaaay misdefining WIFOM too. WIFOM only applies in a 50-50 situation and is useful to show that said 50/50s are meaningless to discuss. But if you put a pile of gold next to one of the winecups and say the person drinking it gets the gold, that isn't WIFOM, nor is it pointless to discuss. When we're talking about behavior that isn't a coinflip - for example, scum voteblocking one of their own or drawing attention to themselves - those aren't 50-50s, they have clear factual disadvantages.
And no kidding I didn't push Serp yesterday, I was pushing Angel Milk.
Buuut we have this here roleclaimness now.
And.... ugh. I'm not sure what to think about it. If Serp were scum, or an SK trying to save his own skin, Zakeri is a pretty illogical target compared to Kilga.
I... actually think I believe him. Nietz as well, for being able to point out Serp killed Zak specifically.
So that pulls me back to Affinity/Pesco, and then the Kiro/Kittens/Sodium pile. Watch them, hard.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 25, 2009, 10:43:40 PM
UK is back from a journey that started 4 AM my time. I see I have things to read, and while I'd really rather not I agreed to play.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 25, 2009, 10:46:50 PM
Heh, I didn't consider the possibility of Serp himself being a Vig. As far as that choice:
---
If Serp is a Mafia Vig: Then the Zakeri kill is standard reduction of numbers while at the same time coordinated with the Kilga kill, places himself in the forefront. And he continues the Suwako pursuit which is gutsy. Either he'd be lynched and Suwako gets a further clear which is good for Town if Suwako is Town or devestating for Town if Suwako is Scum. Or (as the latest developments might suggest), we lynch Suwako. If Suwako flips Town, that kind of ensures the Serp lynch will follow which is a terrible strategy for Scum as it is a 1:1 trade when they reasonably did not need one. If Suwako flips Mafia, we may leave Serp alone and he rides clear in Suwako's place.
If Serp is an SK: See above, but increases the chance of him dying which is bad for such a role. Like I said earlier, less likely to be SK, but could be an application of extreme WIFOM although I'm not seeing why SK Serp would tunnel on Suwako.
If Serp is a Town Vig: Obviously, he's not going to vig himself so I missed that aspect. Cold feet on Suwako is possible because if he were wrong (which Town Serp could genuinely feel), then Serp is all but lynched on Day 3 which is not optimal for him or for Town even if he roleclaimed Vig. Somewhat reasonable on the Zakeri choice as his vote on Serp was kind of a throwaway and kind of minimalist. And an Even Night vig... maybe. It's not unheard of.
---
Coinciding with Nietz coming out with a Track, my first impression is that Serp and Nietz are not a scumpair. Why Nietz would out his scumbuddy in this scenario makes little sense as it either loses a Town Suwako mislynch or it damages any Towncred Scum Serp would have earned with a Scum Suwako lynch. I'm a bit neutral on Nietz' roleclaim, it could go either way although him not saying what his N1 track was is a red flag. But the only way Nietz can confidently finger Serp for a night action is that he is that role, knows someone with that role (only applies if he's Scum with a fellow Tracker), or they're both buddies and playing it openly as a Mafia Tracker and Mafia Vig. Or independently, Serp is an SK and we can't verify whether killers are required to kill every night.
I think all things considered, I believe Serp is telling the truth. His actions fit with his words imo. Nietz could be Scum or not, but part of that is dependent on Suwako's flip. Town Vig Serp obviously presents a problem to Scum as he's potentially dangerous to leave alive, but killing him at Night loses out on a mislynch opportunity.
Nietz: Given Serp's roleclaim now, what do you actually think Serp is?
Cut by Suwako: Scum voteblocking themselves is not necessarily a tactical disadvantage. Town wants to lynch someone everyday. If the number of voters is reduced, it makes that more difficult and requires more coordination and if the Scum stay stubborn on a wagon or don't show up near deadline, the Townies are forced to switch lynches, potentially to their disadvantage which Scum can possibly manipulate. As for drawing attention to yourself, VgT did it and Anthony/Tenshi did it and they were different alignments. Tell me how you should be above this or that you actually weren't drawing attention to yourself. I think several people would disagree on the latter. And a token statement to go back to Affinity/Pesco is not scumhunting. I don't care if you don't have a vote today, we're running out of time today so answer Affinity's questions and convince us he or Pesco is the better lynch for today. Also, why is Nietz clear? Scum can have trackers.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 25, 2009, 10:59:01 PM
Should be enough time for me to change my vote if needed before deadline.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 25, 2009, 11:07:11 PM
Friend's computer = hijacked.
ScumVig!Serp feels heavily unlikely, since if he was scum Zak was one of the last people he'd be wanting to hit. To be honest, given his insistence on going for Suwako in the face of adversity, I was tempted to say he was a cop with a guilty result on the frog, but yeah. :/
Nietz claim is...hmm. I don't understand what Town!Nietz would gain from revealing Serp given that all the result proved was that he was either Town!Vig or SK. Want to know his N1 result since he's come out and claimed.
Quote
Yaaay misdefining WIFOM too. WIFOM only applies in a 50-50 situation and is useful to show that said 50/50s are meaningless to discuss. But if you put a pile of gold next to one of the winecups and say the person drinking it gets the gold, that isn't WIFOM, nor is it pointless to discuss. When we're talking about behavior that isn't a coinflip - for example, scum voteblocking one of their own or drawing attention to themselves - those aren't 50-50s, they have clear factual disadvantages.
Yaaaay misdefining WIFOM again. The basis of WIFOM is saying something along the lines of 'Scum want me to think A, so I'll think B, but then if they KNOW I'd jump to be they'd make B the lie, so I should go back to A, but then if I go back to that...' and so on ad infinitum. Even in your case it applies. The gold is simply another factor to consider - would your opponent put the poison in the wine with the gold to punish your greed? Would he place it in the other glass to second-guess you? Would he second-guess your second-guessing and put it in front of the gold again? In the end, it's still 50-50 in terms of which glass the poison is in.
Need to hear from the Kittens and Sodium. Mainly the former pair. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Nietz on September 25, 2009, 11:20:28 PM
Even Night Vig sounds a plausible role, I would say. But Zakeri as a target seems very fishy coming from Serp. There was no sign of Zak suspicion from him beforehand, and no crumbing afterwards indicating that he had any suspicion of Zak before his death. I don't see why would a Town Serp suddenly want to vig Zakeri, whose flip would tell very little, to Suwako, whose lynch he's been trying to push, and who was the alternate lynch to scum VgT on Day 1. Besides, if he could give up on Suwako for fear that he might flip Town, why not be equally afraid of Zakeri flipping Town?
Nietz claim is...hmm. I don't understand what Town!Nietz would gain from revealing Serp given that all the result proved was that he was either Town!Vig or SK. Want to know his N1 result since he's come out and claimed.
Why are you ignoring the possibility that he was scum doing the NK?
And N1 I tracked Affinity, who targeted no one. Though that obviously doesn't mean he's cleared.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 25, 2009, 11:32:47 PM
Quote
I'm reminded of that one time when I said Rou was gullible enough to NK Kilga. I really feel like voting Rou right now.
Sounds like a good idea far as I remember ^-^
##Vote Roukanken
Your wall unimpresses me. It's basically stuff that's already been said, and just jumping on the scummy people already established.
Sodium 540 puts me ill at ease as well.
Kitten 541 is...decent I guess.
And...Suwako lacks a vote. Interesting.
Oh hey, I didn't know Affinity played Umineko
And his post IS actually a decent view of scuminess in this game. A lot of original thought.
I don't see "WELL YOU'RE DOING IT TOO" from Affinity, but I do need to check on that VgT thing eventually
Suwako 549 tastes like OMGUS
K4u 550 is decent
553. I know I'll have to justify it as well. My idea mostly goes on the fact it's parroting the cases, not even really putting anything new on the table
557 isn't good, but I won't press it since I think Rou is genuinely feeling down. Whether it's cause he got caught as scum or not I don't know
561 feels really bad
Quote
As for Rou, I don't see anything scummy in his D1 conduct.
Not even his rampant CHHHHEEEEEEEEEENNNNNSAAAAAAAAW?
565 actually opens decent reasoning I think...the problem is with the Anthony wagon as a strong rival...well...it would make more sense than going for Suwa scum
Suwako: Elaborate. Why is the Rou case BS, as I'm kinda one of the champions of it and absolutely not mentioned by you
Suwa 576: To be fair, I've been working for most of the time I've been gone
Suwa 580 is horrible. "If I were scum WIFOM"
Just no
And Nietz claim leads me to be...intrigued. Suddenly Serpy SK is more likely.
And serpy 591 is his only move...I have to think...because I remember Serpy being only a little less scummy than Rou, and I'm STILL not getting a Rou lynch...
Quote
If Serp is a Town Vig: Obviously, he's not going to vig himself so I missed that aspect. Cold feet on Suwako is possible because if he were wrong (which Town Serp could genuinely feel), then Serp is all but lynched on Day 3 which is not optimal for him or for Town even if he roleclaimed Vig. Somewhat reasonable on the Zakeri choice as his vote on Serp was kind of a throwaway and kind of minimalist. And an Even Night vig... maybe. It's not unheard of.
ACtually, this might be the best way to test his claim...but can we afford to wait?
Kiro has a good point on Nietz, who I eventually need to reread
Hmm...
I can't really get behind a Suwako lynch at this point because I believe Rou is scum, and it's quite likely Suwa is town with scum Rou...and I'm seriously considering having Serpy vig himself for his next shot. Best way to deal with it if we can afford the time...Rou STILL is getting to live, which galls me...but yeah...
If you absolutely need my vote to lynch Suwako, I'll do it...same with Serpy. In fact, I'd be more enthusiastic about Serpy, though I prefer testing his claim.
Quote
Why are you ignoring the possibility that he was scum doing the NK?
Fair point. Notice Suwa assumed that the scum kill was Kilga as well...I kinda got lured into this trap as well...hmm...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 25, 2009, 11:38:11 PM
Vote Count: Starting To Run Down To The Wire Serpentarius (3): Sodium, Kitten4U, Nietz Suwako Moriya (4): Serpentarius, Roukanken, Affinity, Kiro Nietz (1): pesco Roukanken (1): UncertainKitten
Not voting: Suwako Moriya
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have <18 hours remaining.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 25, 2009, 11:52:55 PM
Sorry, re-did the Touhou Sort, and then played the masochistic game Shoot the Bullet.
Suwako: WIFOM is not 50/50, but rather, when one side has an inherent advantage over the other. the MS wiki explains it, and Rou did too, so I'm not going to bother.
Well, Serp's roleclaim makes sense, I guess. Reasoning for shotting Zak is shaky, but I can see it happening somewhat. Also, Suwako has degraded into a pile of WIFOM since Day 3 started, and regarding the Day 1 Town Clear; while I think it's much more likely that it wasn't 2 scum wagons, the arguments saying that it could be an absurd gambit/scum mistake are good, and they're possible, which means Suwako could be scum. Overall, I'm fine with either lynch, but I'm staying on Serp for the time being.
Oh, and I believe Nietz' claim is genuine. It wouldn't make sense for Nietz to have said anything if it wasn't true, unless he was going for what Edible did last game, which is also pretty stupid.
UK's post is "ROU HAET. Oh, but the main two possible lynches are cool too."
Kitten4u now needs to post.
And I gtg eat. I might have stuff to elaborate on, but can't right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 26, 2009, 12:11:10 AM
Quote
UK's post is "ROU HAET. Oh, but the main two possible lynches are cool too."
Rou has needed to die since D2. I might be tunneling, and I apologize.
Further, I do NOT approve of the Suwako lynch. I just feel that it'd be better to have a lynch than to not have one.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Serp on September 26, 2009, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: Kiro
Heh, I didn't consider the possibility of Serp himself being a Vig. As far as that choice:
And here I assumed that you had reached that conclusion yourself, and were deliberately avoiding mentioning it because you didn't want to out me. :P
Quote from: Nietz
Even Night Vig sounds a plausible role, I would say. But Zakeri as a target seems very fishy coming from Serp. There was no sign of Zak suspicion from him beforehand, and no crumbing afterwards indicating that he had any suspicion of Zak before his death.
D2, I was caught up in the Suwako case and not really looking elsewhere. Later in the day, that writeup I never delivered would've included Zakeri as a big suspicion, though a vote on him that late would've basically been a throwaway one. And D3, I don't see how it would've helped the town at all to breadcrumb that Zakeri would've been a priority lynch for me if we didn't already have his flip. After there was a second NK last night, scum were probably on the lookout for an indication of who the vig was.
Not sure what to make of UncertainKitten asking me to kill myself. I was considering the possibility, but if I had decided that my best use to town was to remove myself from the mislynch pool, I would have done so already.
The Nietz claim looks solid to me. The only way he could have picked me out as the one who killed Zakeri would be if he has the ability he says he does. As to whether he's a town tracker, the only factor in favor of that is the rarity of scum investigative roles. Nietz would lose a lot from a Suwako scum flip, and scum have to know that.
Yaaaay misdefining WIFOM again. The basis of WIFOM is saying something along the lines of 'Scum want me to think A, so I'll think B, but then if they KNOW I'd jump to be they'd make B the lie, so I should go back to A, but then if I go back to that...' and so on ad infinitum. Even in your case it applies. The gold is simply another factor to consider - would your opponent put the poison in the wine with the gold to punish your greed? Would he place it in the other glass to second-guess you? Would he second-guess your second-guessing and put it in front of the gold again? In the end, it's still 50-50 in terms of which glass the poison is in.
WIFOM, as it's used here at MotK mafia at least, is kind of a misnomer. The hypothetical that it was originally based from was 50-50, yes, but there's no such thing as a true 50-50 choice in mafia. If differently sized piles of gold are put by each glass, it can be shown mathematically that for the highest expected reward, the drinker should choose randomly among the two glasses, but weight that random choice based on the relative sizes of the piles of gold. Similarly, the guy offering the choice should randomly choose which glass gets poisoned, weighted by the relative sizes of the piles of gold. Incidentally, the two weightings should turn out to be the same.
Cut by Sodium directing you all to the MS Wiki. Bleh, a lot of the articles there are crap, in my opinion.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 26, 2009, 01:01:09 AM
Serp: The WIFOM article isn't that bad. It gives a simple enough examples that anyone should get.
UK: And I seem to have misread, but it seemed like it when you said that you would vote him if needed. Also, it'd be nice for other opinions on other people if you have the time, seeing as you've missed most of the Day.
Kitten4u needs to post. =V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 26, 2009, 01:02:32 AM
Quote
UK: And I seem to have misread, but it seemed like it when you said that you would vote him if needed. Also, it'd be nice for other opinions on other people if you have the time, seeing as you've missed most of the Day.
I did say I'd vote him if needed. As for opinions on other people, I need to reread Affinity and Nietz, take a closer look at you, but overall I think most of you are in the clear except Serp and Rou. Possibly Suwako but I doubt that's compatable with Rou.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 26, 2009, 01:21:46 AM
Sorry for the lack of post yesterday I didn't have time to do it.
This game is making my head hurt. From my understanding it's normally 3.5 townies for every mafia out there, which means there's 4 or 5 of them. At this point I think it's safe to say that at least one of them was bussing VgT. I'm also convinced that there is at least one scum on Suwako's D1 wagon regardless of how he flips. At this point I really don't want to reread the entire game, but I might do so. For now, I just took a look at the votes.
But first I want to address the claims.
Nietz's claim seems reasonable enough. I don't quite get why he chose Affinity, but since he did express some suspicion of his D1 actions D2 it doesn't seem unreasonable that he would.
Serp's claim however makes absolutely no sense to me even if he did find Zakeri suspicious. He had a choice between vigging someone that everyone was clearing due to being alternative wagon to a scum wagon and someone that a couple of people had at least expressed suspicion of. Vigging Suwako would have given the town a lot of information whereas vigging Zakeri gave us very little. The choice makes very little sense. My vote stays.
And I have more stuff I want to say about Suwako, but I need to do some more reading and god only knows how long it'll take for me to read stuff. I'll post the rest of the stuff in a bit.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 26, 2009, 01:24:48 AM
Bleh, sorry for the silence; something horrible happened in IRL. Never handle relationships with friends as you would handle other people in Mafia, gosh I feel like a douche.
I'm quite convinced by Nietz's roleclaim and not so much of Serp's, since, as Nietz said, no suspicion against Zakeri was telegraphed at all in the whole game. The alibi of the writeup is interesting (as well as the idea of thinking that it's an alibi), and the reasoning for it seems plausible, but still, there's as much of a reason for scum to target Zak; e.g no suspicion directed at him for most of D2, etc. So I think the claim only helps him a little. His post on Suwako does earn points however, but the points against him from D1 still stays.
If you would, Suwako, could you summarize your case against me and pesco again, other than me pushing this supposedly bad case against you?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 26, 2009, 02:49:15 AM
As I said before, this game is hurting my head. At this point, I'm getting the feeling that a whole lot of bussing is going on and trying to wrap my head around it is just making my brain itch. I'm also half-asleep, so hopefully all this makes sense. It's conspiracy theory time~
Like I said in my last post, there are probably 4 or 5 mafia. We killed one so far, so there's 3 or 4 left. I find it unlikely that all of Rou, Affinity, Serp and Suwako are scum, which means that it's very likely that someone was bussing VgT. I think I can actually see scum!Suwako because of that.
If Suwako is scum
First, the way VgT and Suwako were acting D1 was very similar. They were both making very non-commital statements and neither of them were really saying anything and it would be difficult to link them to anyone later in the game becasue of that. In other words, no matter who was lynched the other would probably get a free pass and they would be very difficult to trace. I imagine if they were both scum that their buddies would be early on the wagon. So, if the mafia decided to do this then I imagine that the scum would be relatively early on the wagons and they would be on both of them.
If Suwako is town
Considering how many townies were on the Suwako wagon I still think that at least one scum was on the VgT wagon. Again, I doubt that all of Rou, Affinity, Serp and Suwako are scum. I imagine that the scum would be early on Suwako's wagon and later on VgT's wagon.
---
Honestly, I still see Serp as scum regardless of how Suwako flips, but I think a Suwako lynch would give us more information and I think it's possible that he could be scum as well. I'm fine with either lynch today, though I would perfer Serp because I still won't be surpised if Suwako flips town.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Serp on September 26, 2009, 03:00:35 AM
Serp's claim however makes absolutely no sense to me even if he did find Zakeri suspicious. He had a choice between vigging someone that everyone was clearing due to being alternative wagon to a scum wagon and someone that a couple of people had at least expressed suspicion of.
Well, yes, and even more people have been clearing Kiro, and not expressing any suspicion of him. Should that have made Kiro an even better vig target? The point of a vigilante is not to kill people that will never get lynched - it's to kill people who are scum, or failing that, people who the town will probably waste a lynch on regardless of their alignment. Suwako handled D2 in mostly the way that I'd have expected a townie to. Zakeri didn't.
As to those suggesting that scum-me picked Zakeri for the night's scum kill, that would require an unclaimed vig or a serial killer out there to hit Kilga. I could understand a serial killer doing it for whatever reason, but I don't think that anyone would have vigged Kilga, and the lack of a counterclaim should seal that fact. As for the scum vig theory, all I can use to defend against that is the WIFOM of taking out what I saw as the only plausible alternative to my lynch at the time - which I did anyway, but only because as a townie I figured that it would at least shed some light on the situation.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 26, 2009, 03:13:30 AM
Quote from: Serp
Well, yes, and even more people have been clearing Kiro, and not expressing any suspicion of him. Should that have made Kiro an even better vig target? The point of a vigilante is not to kill people that will never get lynched - it's to kill people who are scum, or failing that, people who the town will probably waste a lynch on regardless of their alignment. Suwako handled D2 in mostly the way that I'd have expected a townie to. Zakeri didn't.
Then I'm confused again. You're voting for Suwako. If you think that he handled D2 in a way a townie would then why is he scummy now? You knew Anthony and Angel Milk were town by the time the night started, so you already knew that the last two people on the Suwako wagon were town and the things you pointed out about Suwako in your initial post already existed prior to D3. What made Zakeri so much worse that you needed his flip before declaring Suwako Scum In Front Of Me?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 26, 2009, 03:30:23 AM
- Scum are being quite obvious with their killing and voteblocking patterns, taking out the intelligent players (UU, Kilga) and throwing voteblocks on the people they want lynched (Anthony, me). This rings no bells to anyone?
This is weird when I read it again. You're assuming in that sentence that before Day 3 began, a Scum Voteblocker was going to block you because they wanted you to be the lynch of the Day? But why would you think this way or even expect this to happen? The only one who would actively do that is Serp. And even then, Scum wouldn't necessarily believe your lynch would go all the way through especially if you "look Townie" because you were voteblocked. Under such a scenario, it's as if you're expecting yourself to be a major target, but your situation is nothing like Anthony's.
You could just concede that your analysis of the voteblocking is wrong, but the fact you use this reason after you get Serp and Rou's vote on you suggests you're flailing a bit. In essence, you seem to make this argument in the hopes that because Anthony was blocked and flipped Town, that the same applies to you in your defense. Personally, I disagree. There is no hard rule that a Scum Voteblocker has to block Townies only. Also, you figuratively hold a vote and it still holds weight. And that vote initially went to Serp. You have any comment to the above?
Not sure how Serp fits into the whole thing though, but it doesn't diminish the chance that he's a Scum collaborator. I'm not completely satisfied with his choice of Zakeri, mainly because if they're both Scum, Serp wouldn't waste a Scum Vig on him, especially if he assumed it wouldn't be tracked. Kind of want Serp's updated opinion on who he thinks a Scum Suwako's buddies would be now that most people have caught up to the events now. It may be unavoidable to lynch both due to the fear they're both Scum, but I would still prefer a Suwako lynch currently who has been non-contributive for most of the game and provided defenses that pretty much read as WIFOM arguments. We may yet get more information on Night 3 to better determine Serp's alignment, but Serp has been far more helpful in discussion than Suwako.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 26, 2009, 03:53:01 AM
More hijacking :3
Quote
Why are you ignoring the possibility that he was scum doing the NK?
Because I'm of the opinion that there was a decent enough case on Zakeri going into Day 3. Scum could have easily planted a mislynch on him, and I can't find any way his premature death would have helped him in the slightest. SK probably wouldn't have been that keen on hitting Zak either, since again it's another mislynch and therefore there are fewer people in the equation. The only reason I can see someone hitting Zak N2 is genuine suspicion, so I'm more or less giving Serp a clear for now.
Quote
and I'm seriously considering having Serpy vig himself for his next shot. Best way to deal with it if we can afford the time...
Okay seriously, what the hell? Besides the fact you're tunneling on me at the point where there really isn't any way for my lynch to happen today, you're asking the potential vig to hit himself? Surely the logical solution is to use him as best we can. If he's Town, and possibly even if he's SK, we get him to work in our favour and kill people we find suspicious.
If Suwako flips scum, UK is a highly likely buddy to her given the massive tunnel on me this late in the day and conveniently placing Suwako at the bottom of her list of suspicions today. After that, I'd probably be looking at Pesco for third buddy, possibly K4U (Nietz would be here as well but his claim more or less makes him look either Town or a buddy to Scum!Serp, which I find very hard to believe) but that's a good way down the line.
One final comment on the Suwako case: We can clearly see that the player in question thinks that we're all simple-minded and easily fooled. Why is it hard to believe he'd try to prove his own point using a WIFOM along the lines of a double-scum wagon? He has an ego, and he's trying to flaunt it in the most extravagant way possible.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 26, 2009, 05:11:50 AM
Vote Count: It's D?j? Vu All Over Again Serpentarius (3): Sodium, Kitten4U, Nietz Suwako Moriya (4): Serpentarius, Roukanken, Affinity, Kiro Nietz (1): pesco Roukanken (1): UncertainKitten
Not voting: Suwako Moriya
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have 12 hours and 10 minutes remaining.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 26, 2009, 05:18:56 AM
@Kiro:
Quote
I think all things considered, I believe Serp is telling the truth. His actions fit with his words imo.
Quote
I'm not completely satisfied with his choice of Zakeri, mainly because if they're both Scum, Serp wouldn't waste a Scum Vig on him,
What prompted this change in attitude, by the way?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kiro on September 26, 2009, 05:31:36 AM
Both statements still fit. Just switch the order around for better clarity.
A worst case scenario suggests they're both Scum and to be more efficient, he's not gonna waste a Scum Vig on his buddy. But all things considered, I still believe Serp is telling the truth. That's how I'm prioritizing my lynch choice for today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 26, 2009, 05:43:40 AM
##Unvote
Nietz ain't happening and a chance to prove himself has been given. I need to think things over a little bit more before I decide to vote Suwako or not. Assuming that Serp is vig like he says, Suwako can't be SK (under current information) and the argument for Suwako being scum needs to be looked over again.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Serp on September 26, 2009, 06:46:24 AM
Quote from: Kitten4u
Then I'm confused again. You're voting for Suwako. If you think that he handled D2 in a way a townie would then why is he scummy now? You knew Anthony and Angel Milk were town by the time the night started, so you already knew that the last two people on the Suwako wagon were town and the things you pointed out about Suwako in your initial post already existed prior to D3. What made Zakeri so much worse that you needed his flip before declaring Suwako Scum In Front Of Me?
At the time, I vigged Zakeri because I was getting some doubts about my dual-scumwagon theory. If that theory was wrong, then there were probably at least two scum on the Suwako wagon aside from VgameT. The accusations between Affinity and Rou didn't look like a scum gambit, so one of them had to be town, which meant that Zakeri would be the other scum.
Furthermore, keep in mind that for the whole day, pretty much everyone was saying "Suwako is confirmed town, Serp's case is so bad that he ought to be lynch material right behind Anthony and/or Tenshi." I may like to consider myself more of a maverick than the average mafia player, but you'd be hard-pressed to find someone willing to use his vig on a player who's being so universally defended. I just doubted my own judgement and didn't want to act unilaterally.
Quote from: Kiro
Kind of want Serp's updated opinion on who he thinks a Scum Suwako's buddies would be now that most people have caught up to the events now.
This is kind of a tall order, since my very first point on Suwako was that his playstyle made it impossible to reliably connect him to any other flipped scum, but we can connect other players' actions to him. I'm not going to do a full reread now, but the one that stands out to me at the moment is Kitten4u. For one thing, I disagree with her analysis on what a Suwako scum flip implies about other players' alignments.
I doubt that scum would've planned to run two scumwagons side-by-side from the outset. Most likely, the wagon on VgameT started without their influence, then the wagon on Suwako started without their influence, and the other two buddies piled onto VgameT to gain towncred for swinging the wagon. I believe that those late on the VgameT wagon look worst in light of a Suwako scumflip, and Kitten4u claiming otherwise could be an attempt to cover herself and her remaining buddy.
Furthermore, Kitten4u is lining up these lynches in preparation for a Suwako scumflip while claiming that she expects Suwako to flip town. That's a contradiction in her thought process which looks scummy to me. Also, I may be treading into OMGUS here, but I don't like the way she's trying to line up me, specifically, after a Suwako scumflip. I think that a Suwako scumflip should at least make me less-than-scummiest, and furthermore, if Suwako flips scum, then we won't be in LyLo tomorrow, and the town might as well let me live to see N4 and use my ability again, if scum gives it a chance to do so.
That's just my D3 analysis. I suppose that since Nietz is also late on the VgameT wagon, I should keep in mind the somewhat crackpot theory that he's a scum tracker. It seems odd for scum to have a tracker in a game where we haven't seen any evidence for even a second role for scum to find with such a role, but I suppose it could just be a small balance adjustment over giving scum a vanilla goon.
As for Suwako's actions themselves as they relate to possible scumbuddies, with all the light suspicion he has out there it's hard to discern between a token bus, an attempted mislynch seed, and a throwaway case, but I do note that scum tend to like to declare a townie and a buddie "equivalent" to muddy the waters after their flip. The suspected pairs he's most recently put forward could be seen as that.
Anyway, note that I'm probably not going to be online again by the deadline.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 26, 2009, 07:23:33 AM
I think I'll trust Rou.
<-- Mindhax > Logic
##Vote Suwako
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Affinity on September 26, 2009, 12:29:27 PM
Nothing that changes my opinions has happened over the last few posts. Am still fine with the Suwako lynch on the account that his thought processes are not made clear all that much.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 26, 2009, 12:32:07 PM
That's Suwako at L-1. What are the odds of a claim before deadline?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Edible on September 26, 2009, 12:35:28 PM
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have like 5 hours or something left.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 26, 2009, 12:39:57 PM
Unlikely with their posting routine.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 26, 2009, 03:21:39 PM
2 hours remaining!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 26, 2009, 04:22:59 PM
1 hour remaining!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 26, 2009, 04:37:01 PM
Just got on.
I'm here, and I'm willing to hammer Suwako, but I'd like to see if he can role claim first. Unlikely, but there's nothing to lose by waiting a bit. I still somewhat prefer a Serp lynch, but that isn't going to happen, and a Suwako lynch is still good, and it'll give a lot of info at least.
I'm assuming the deadline is 1 PM EST, so I'll hammer in 20 18 minutes.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 26, 2009, 04:47:33 PM
Almost forgot you were playing.
Any quick thoughts on other the players?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Sodium on September 26, 2009, 04:56:31 PM
>other the players
Uh, it's sorta hard when I'm going to hammer in 5 minutes as of me writting this post. UK & Kitten4u: will need to make up for absence today on Day 4, but they really haven't done anything overtly scummy. Roukan: Suwako's flip will affect what I think of Roukan Serp: I still think he's scum, although Suwako's flip will go a long way in deciding his alignment. Nietz: Claim is probably real, but I hope he'll give more opinions later.
And that's all I could write in 5 6 minutes. So yeah. ##Unvote ##Vote: Suwako Moriya Hammer.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Pesco on September 26, 2009, 04:59:10 PM
I know time was short, that's why I said quick.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 3) - Tragedy! Drama! Suspense!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 26, 2009, 05:00:19 PM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Sodium on September 27, 2009, 06:27:27 PM
Wat@Night Kill Target. Has Pesco EVER been the only person NK'd in a night?
Oh shit, lylo.
Well, Suwako's flip has made Serp obvscum, so yeah. And Pesco's flip doesn't help, as that would mean there are two Night Vigs in the game, which doesn't seem likely. Kevorkian Doc is a Night Vig Doc btw(Night Vigging will remove ability to protect though); I know because I got that role once from Kilga, unless Edible changed it.
##Vote Serp
Also, Check for voteblocking.
Kittens need to make up for Day 3 absence.
Would like Nietz Night Results.
Edible: What does Rosamia Badam from Zeta Gundam have anything to do with this game?
I need to re-read some stuff for my next post which will have opinions on other people, but I'm getting this post out first.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 27, 2009, 06:41:51 PM
Funny, my conclusion was that Suwa's flip implicates Rou.
Also, catch up from yesterday that got cut off by night:
Quote
Okay seriously, what the hell? Besides the fact you're tunneling on me at the point where there really isn't any way for my lynch to happen today, you're asking the potential vig to hit himself?
Having an vig of uncertain and quite dubious alignment is quite often solved this way. That way it ties up loose ends without wasting a lynch.
Quote
If Suwako flips scum, UK is a highly likely buddy to her given the massive tunnel on me this late in the day and conveniently placing Suwako at the bottom of her list of suspicions today. After that, I'd probably be looking at Pesco for third buddy, possibly K4U (Nietz would be here as well but his claim more or less makes him look either Town or a buddy to Scum!Serp, which I find very hard to believe) but that's a good way down the line.
That's good. Cause if Suwako flips town I'll feel even MORE comfortable about lynching you tomorrow, if that's possible. I'm also going to look quite closely at how others interacted with Suwako
And Suwako flipped town.
Since I won't post this til the start of D4...
##Vote Roukanken
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 27, 2009, 06:48:14 PM
Also, going to work today. Probably won't return til tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 27, 2009, 06:55:52 PM
Since we're in LYLO, I'll take the opening to claim...Nitori Kawashiro, Vanilla Townie. >_>
Well, Suwako's flip has made Serp obvscum, so yeah. And Pesco's flip doesn't help, as that would mean there are two Night Vigs in the game, which doesn't seem likely. Kevorkian Doc is a Night Vig Doc btw(Night Vigging will remove ability to protect though); I know because I got that role once from Kilga, unless Edible changed it.
1. I stand to the belief that Suwako was worth lynching. After she became 'confirmed Town' on day 1 she contributed little beyond 'lol you guys suck', and when said clear was questioned she started spamming WIFOM left right and centre.
2. Are you actually accusing Serp of not having a killing role? Because you're then immediately jumping at Nietz for faking his tracker claim. And better yet, wouldn't Pesco have called him out on it, or at least have found some excuse to vote for him rather than staying on Nietz for most of the day?
3. WHY ARE YOU VOTING AN HOUR INTO LYLO SERIOUSLY
Quickly thinking back over D3, I'll mention that UK's 599 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg101377#msg101377) also irks me. Because it pokes at Serp and Suwako, pointing out problems with them, but says 'I don't want to be on either of these wagons to favour a wagon that isn't going to happen'. Gaining credit by not being willing or present on two (IMO) Town wagons feels bad.
I need to give this some proper thought. I'd been intending to start with a case on Pesco, but...yeah. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Nietz on September 27, 2009, 08:11:46 PM
Well, I don't know how can Serpentarius possibly get worse now. Two vigging roles for Town seem borderline ridiculous, limitations or not. I'm not gonna vote so early in LYLO, but I'm pretty much set for him.
2. Are you actually accusing Serp of not having a killing role? Because you're then immediately jumping at Nietz for faking his tracker claim. And better yet, wouldn't Pesco have called him out on it, or at least have found some excuse to vote for him rather than staying on Nietz for most of the day?
What the hell does that mean? How does Serp having a killing role makes him obvtown? And I can't even begin to understand how pesco not voting for Serp makes him town.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kiro on September 27, 2009, 08:36:14 PM
Sodium pretty much described what I think is the kicker. Kevorkian Doc is a second vig. Giving Town 2 vigs when there's only 25% Scum in the game just doesn't seem too feasible. If we have to make a guess with the known power roles at the moment: Town Kevorkian Doc, Unknown Voteblocker, Unknown Tracker, and Unknown Even Night Vig, giving Town the Doc and Vig looks grossly imbalanced. Factor in Serp waffling on vigging Suwako before getting people to vote Suwako in Day 3 and I think that clinches it. Further roleclaims should tell us whether this balance can be believed or not. For the record, I roleclaim Vanilla Townie.
Also Rou, why did you feel like pursuing a case on Pesco? If you look at who's left on the Suwako wagons, you have Rou, Affinity, Serp on both days and myself for Day 3 with Sodium hammering being null. With the Occam's Razor scenario pretty much confirmed, tell me why at least from your point of view, Affinity and Serp were not top suspects over Pesco as you were thinking about this during Night 3? Not liking Rou's initial idea of wanting to pursue Pesco over either of these people.
Since we need to test if anyone got voteblocked, I think everyone should vote someone that has not been voted so that everyone has ONE vote until the mod votecount reveals who it is. With that, testing my vote on the person below me from page 1:
##Vote Sodium
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 27, 2009, 08:46:01 PM
What the hell does that mean? How does Serp having a killing role makes him obvtown? And I can't even begin to understand how pesco not voting for Serp makes him town.
I was pointing out that Serp makes no sense as scum. If he didn't have a killing role then your track claim was false and thus you were buddies, but then why were there two deaths on N2?
Besides, you guys seem to have missed a key point - if Serp is SK, we can use him. If we mislynch today, Serp HAS to try and hit scum to fulfill his win condition. By the time his next hit comes around, the game will undoubtedly be over (because there's no way we're making it to N6).
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Also Rou, why did you feel like pursuing a case on Pesco? If you look at who's left on the Suwako wagons, you have Rou, Affinity, Serp on both days and myself for Day 3 with Sodium hammering being null. With the Occam's Razor scenario pretty much confirmed, tell me why at least from your point of view, Affinity and Serp were not top suspects over Pesco as you were thinking about this during Night 3?
Pesco annoyed me because for a good portion of the day he basically cheered me on for the Suwako lynch. Hell, when he finally voted he stated 'gonna trust Rou on this one', effectively connecting me directly to the upcoming Town lynch. Hence my suspicion of him.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 27, 2009, 08:56:49 PM
I was pointing out that Serp makes no sense as scum. If he didn't have a killing role then your track claim was false and thus you were buddies, but then why were there two deaths on N2?
He can still be an SK or scum hitman, or he might have been the scum NK and the Kilga kill was the SK or hitman.
But then again, IF he is an SK, and IF there's 3 scum left, killing him would be game over. That would explain the current Potential LYLO.
Since we need to test if anyone got voteblocked, I think everyone should vote someone that has not been voted so that everyone has ONE vote until the mod votecount reveals who it is. With that, testing my vote on the person below me from page 1:
Okay. ## Vote Kiro :P
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 27, 2009, 09:41:21 PM
Since we need to test if anyone got voteblocked, I think everyone should vote someone that has not been voted so that everyone has ONE vote until the mod votecount reveals who it is.
Makes sense to me.
##Vote: UncertainKitten
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Affinity on September 27, 2009, 11:24:39 PM
This game is defying common sense. I second what Sodium says about pesco's role on Serp. The only course of action seems to be to wait on Serp at the moment.
##Vote: Nietz
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Edible on September 28, 2009, 12:42:22 AM
I will save you some trouble - no one is votestopped at present.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Sodium on September 28, 2009, 12:53:12 AM
Roukan, I was also checking for VOTEBLOCK(tm). =V It's under my vote.
Also, Serp is obvscum by now, if not for his actions, then by Pesco's flip. I'm fairly confident that Serp was lying about being a vig now, and is thus scum, although the possibility of Serp being an even kill SK is possible. He'll have to claim if he wants any realistic chance of scum not winning though, and there's still the chance he's lying should he claim that.
Came back home after some various things, so yeah.
Oh, and assuming that Serp is scum, I'll have strong suspicions of Rou(continuing defense of Serp, some ties to VGT), and mild suspicion of Kiro(swing vote that put Suwako up and Serp down, but that's about it). Kitten seems pretty town, if just a bit inactive(think Alice). Nietz is confirmed townie imo, as scumNietz would have no reason to claim at all. UK seems like the townie as well. Affinity is neutral with me right now. Because I think that Serp=scum, and Rou=Serp Buddy, his argument with Rou at the end of Day 2/Day 3 would make me lean town, but his silence on VGT on Day 1 and his "huge Suwako push while ignoring previous Rou case for a bit" makes me lean scum, so neutral. Just making sure; Affinity, are you still suspicions of Roukan? Your last post that had anything to do with Roukan directly was 563.
Kiro: You forgot the best role ever: Bunch Of Fucking Rocks. That role defeated Edible.
Oh, and are we roleclaiming?
Edible: Thanks for telling us. Guess that means that either the vote stopper didn't use it, or it had only 2 charges.
Vote stays for now, as I see no real reason to remove it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 28, 2009, 01:05:59 AM
First, since we're mass claiming: I'm a Vanillia Townie.
I still think Serp is scum for reasons I and other people have already stated. I still think Rou is scum for reasons I and other people have already stated. This game still hurts my head.
Waiting on Serp for the moment.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Affinity on September 28, 2009, 01:14:30 AM
If no one is votestopped, I assume that we are in LyLo, since scum have nothing to gain from not votestopping, and at the same time, votestopping is game-breaking at LyLo.
I roleclaim vanilla townie. As for Roukanken, my point against him, that he didn't really contribute, has weakened due to yesterday, though I still think that his Suwako vote post was a little abrupt without real reasoning, and that much of what he said yesterday were reasonably obvious and stated by other people. But due to the actions of D1 and D2, I still find him scummy, though not to the extent that Serp is right now.
I wonder why UK ignored the Serp point though, makes me feel a little queasy. If Serp flips scum, then UK probably would be a possible scumbuddy.
##Unvote
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Sodium on September 28, 2009, 02:46:44 AM
Alright then. I'm a VT(Vanilla Townie, for those who hate acronyms).
Affinity: I see. The main problem was how suddenly you stopped talking about Roukan though. Didn't help that the last thing you talked to Roukan about was his usual "I'm an idiot" post.
So, uh, waiting for Serp.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kiro on September 28, 2009, 03:11:32 AM
Rou: I really don't think Serp could be an SK. Going into Night 2, he would have no idea who the Scum would attempt to hit. So hitting Zakeri (one of the people voting him) should raise warning bells against him. And tunneling back onto Suwako, supposedly after getting cold feet is not how an SK acts. An SK eliminates everyone, he either would have shot Suwako without batting an eye because Town presumably would not have lynched him otherwise, or he would have shot Zakeri and pursued a different case than Suwako without drawing more attention to himself. Plus, if you want to consider the thought, how does one expect an Even Night SK to win this game? Without doing the number crunching, having an inherent lack of kills would probably result in being caught in endgame against Scum at the wrong time. So yeah, either a Townie or Scum and definitely leaning Scum now. I have to revise my earlier opinion about Mafia Serp being willing to push the Suwako mislynch again as it forced us into LYLO with no room for error. Presumably a better alternative to being lynched a Day earlier and he almost certainly had help from some scum to get there.
Don't like how Rou waffled on his suspicions. Even if he was going to put Pesco as his top choice for lynch today, the lack of any updated opinion of Serp or Affinity is unreasonable. You even voted Affinity the start of Day 3 so where did your thoughts there go? Saying Serp could be the SK also doesn't tell us the likelihood that you think he is. Initial lack of input there is bad; feels like you're not thinking enough which means you're not scumhunting enough while waiting to react to what other people say. And Rou, you wondering why Pesco didn't stay on Serp is missing the point. Pesco was concerned about how likely Suwako was Scum and I'm not sure how much Serp's roleclaim played into that decision. That seems to be the reason why he voted Suwako and I'm sure he's unhappy about it as much as the rest of Town is. Let's hear what you think about who your top choices are for today.
Not too sure of what to make of Affinity. He brings forth his own cases although they were a bit odd in Day 1 (umu and K4U prod). And he's pretty much an early follower, being #2 in Day 1, and #3 in Day 3. That's generally the best way for Scum to act as they hopefully let a Townie incriminate a Townie. He was after Rou both times so with the continued pressure on Rou, I wonder if it's just trying to set up Rou as the fall guy. On the other hand, you push Rou for much of the game and the two of you have voted each other and other people have voted Rou too. Given that, my impression is that you're not scumbuddies which makes deciding between the two of you as the secondary choice more difficult.
Given Occam's, I'd be pretty sad if both Rou and Serp are Townies and the game's looking grim if so. I think Serp's pushing of the wagon in Day 3 is scummier than Rou's pushing the wagon in Day 1 although both are pretty bad anyways. Favoring the Serp lynch at the moment. Although Rou's statements for Day 4 are pretty bad already, I'm just getting a bad feeling about Serp, Rou, and Affinity being the last 3 Scum. They're too smart as players and as a team to be the first 3 on a Day 1 mislynch wagon created from scratch AND to push it again in Day 3. So I'm feeling at least one Scum bussed VgT and I intend to consider that in future Days.
##Unvote Sodium
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Serp on September 28, 2009, 06:01:27 AM
Well, this looks bad. To all of those labelling me as obvscum, please keep in mind that Pesco knew he wasn't the only partial vig role, and he still believed me strongly enough to swing the lynch away from me and towards Suwako. Also keep in mind that Suwako knew I was wrong about him, and still stated that he believed my story. This isn't an open-and-shut case.
There's not a whole lot more I can say in my defense. I wouldn't roleclaim SK here, even if I was one, because I very much doubt that it would save me. As Kiro says, my actions aren't at all consistent with that sort of victory condition, and an even-kill SK would be beyond a bastard mod role in the first place.
As for who I think actually is scum, we now have confirmation that Suwako was town, and that every flipped player who was on his wagon D1 was town. With one flipped scum, and presumably three left, and three unflipped spots on the D1 Suwako wagon including myself, I at least have proof that at least one scum was bussing VgameT, and if that's the case, maybe they all were. A conspiracy of a different sort.
I have one top, stand-out suspect, and it's founded on last night's actions. Pesco is beyond bizarre as a night kill choice. He was the swing vote that sealed Suwako's mislynch. Yet, he was an unclaimed power role. If scum has a tracker or a role cop, then they'd know that Pesco would be the one player that could stop them in the event of a mislynch today.
Here's my theory. D1, VgameT makes a policy lynch of himself, whether as part of a plan or by complete accident. Scum realize that he's not going to make it to LyLo. Nietz, the scum tracker, decides to bus him, planning to cruise straight to LyLo on the towncred. N1, he uses his ability on Pesco. If he's scum tracker, it returns whoever Pesco protected. If he's scum rolecop, it returns "Kevorkian Doc." Either way, scum now know that Pesco is dangerous.
D2, scum lets the town go about chasing newbies and following false leads. Nietz hangs back and watches the circus. N2, scum decide to let Pesco live for whatever reason. Maybe they think he's probably protecting himself, maybe they have a roleblocker. Nietz either tracks me as he claimed, or scans me vig and makes the obvious conclusion from Zakeri's death.
D3, he sees suspicion building on him and makes his roleclaim with proof to reclear himself. He lies about who he tracked N1 - chances are, this would paint Affinity as his scumbuddy, unless he was gutsy enough to name a random townie as using no ability N1, betting that he wouldn't be unlucky enough to pick another power role. N3, he figures that Pesco is going to be protecting him, and so offs Pesco so he can't bring his ability to play on the night after LyLo to keep the town in the game.
##Vote: Nietz
A bit of a stretch, I know. I may have a bad track record with those, this game, but I now have confirmation that bussing was going on, so the only question is who's doing it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 09:20:51 AM
I still blatantly refuse to believe that Serp is scum. If he's SK then that's fine if somewhat difficult for him, but giving scum an even-night hitman on top of their normal kill is outright suicidal.
I'm actually getting highly irritated with how half the Town has decided that Serp is obvscum when the most obvious sign that something is amiss - the death on N2 - suggests either Town has a vig, or scum has one of the cheapest and most unfair roles out there. I've never played a game with a Hitman before, and I hope to keep it that way.
Don't like how K4U is simply saying 'Serp and Rou are scum' without giving the slightest consideration to the Pesco hit. Also want to hear more from UK when she gets back from work.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 09:25:48 AM
EBWOP.
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And Rou, you wondering why Pesco didn't stay on Serp is missing the point. Pesco was concerned about how likely Suwako was Scum and I'm not sure how much Serp's roleclaim played into that decision.
That was to oppose Sodium's assumption that Serp hadn't made the kill on N2, Pesco had. It made no sense, to be frank.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 03:40:47 PM
EBWOP Again: To clarify my stance, I don't believe there's any way for Serp, as a killing role, to be scum. If we assume a Hitman does exist, why would he target Zak of all people? Kilga was on the Serp wagon as well, so hitting BOTH of the players who'd been following him so fiercely would be a dead giveaway. Besides, there was already a decent enough case on Zak given that a) he'd been going for Suwako D1, and b) he'd spent D2 tunneling Serp vigorously. I can't see why scum would go out of their way to kill him rather than one of the bigger targets.
Anyway, since Edible clarified the voteblock, ##Unvote. Given that there's been no claim we can probably assume that the voteblocker is scum.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 05:09:26 PM
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Quickly thinking back over D3, I'll mention that UK's 599 also irks me. Because it pokes at Serp and Suwako, pointing out problems with them, but says 'I don't want to be on either of these wagons to favour a wagon that isn't going to happen'. Gaining credit by not being willing or present on two (IMO) Town wagons feels bad.
Ok, so, you'd prefer if I voted people I think are town? Or rather, less scummy than you? Yes, I probably should have voted Serp. I wasn't thinking. I'm still DAMNED certain you are scum at this point.
However, I did not think about the vig angle. I don't think it wise to play the set up but...that does implicate Serp more...
Serp as SK is an interesting theory there...though even night kills is kinda screwed up for an SK
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I wonder why UK ignored the Serp point though, makes me feel a little queasy. If Serp flips scum, then UK probably would be a possible scumbuddy.
Explain the serp point I "ignored"?
Realize I've been willing to lynch serpy these past two days. Just less willing to lynch him then Rou and then we ended up getting caught in other lynches.
Kiro 650 does make a lot of sense...hmm...
This is hard...
Look, here it is. I favor either Rou or Serpy's lynch at this point, from earlier cases on Serp and obviously what I think about Rou.
And wow Serpy that is an incredible conspiracy theory. It almost makes sense but it feels contrived. I'm getting a backed into the corner feel from you.
Rou 652: You also assume Serpy is telling the truth. If he's scum, he has no obligation to do so. Further, while he was tracked to the Zakeri kill, no one can confirm whether that was a scum hit or something else. I would recheck your premise and think about it a bit. Maybe turn the chessboard over a bit.
And no, I'm not proposing Pesco made the other hit.
Rou 654 is a fair point for why Zak wasn't the mafia kill. But anyway, what if it's a one shot or something?
Either way, this development of Rou dropping Serp...irritates me.
I really COULD go for either lynch at this point.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kiro on September 28, 2009, 05:49:57 PM
Serp, you should tell us why Scum Tracker Nietz would choose to reveal himself in tracking you. The only thing it did was make you claim Vig which actually made you more likely to survive given how it led to the Suwako lynch. Let's say you respond to this by stating that it was to get Suwako mislynched in Day 3, then you mislynched in Day 4, but this is contingent on other people voting for Suwako. I'm just not seeing the Day 3 Suwako wagon to be all Townies and you not commenting on any of those people is disturbing. Because if you're lynched as Scum today, you're not giving us any leads as to who else might be your buddy from these wagons. Opinions on Rou, Affinity, and myself in particular please.
Rou: I'd like your opinion on Affinity. If you don't think Serp is Scum and you say you're not Scum, what do you think of Affinity? If you think he's Town, explain why and a rationale for why virtually everyone on the Suwako wagon in Day 1 is Town. You've even had a chance to respond to Serp and I see your stance there, but then, who else is Scum? You waiting on K4U or UK is no good. Bring forth your own cases without waiting for other people's replies. Also, why is a Scum Vig unfair when we also have the Kevorkian Doc as opposed to Town having both of them? The latter definitely favors Town; 1 protect that can be switched to a kill along with an additonal vig and Scum only gets a voteblocker and a tracker? If Scum have a 3rd role like a rolecop, Town should obviously have a 3rd role to counterbalance it and we haven't seen an additional claim yet. And the thing is that if Serp was Scum, it's not certain they expected a case to arise on him so soon. So perhaps Scum just decided to off who they thought were the most perceptive people in the game and possibly take Serp as a loss. Even if Scum Serp was lynched in Day 3, they have 2 people left who could reasonably still win the game.
UK: Roleclaim please for completeness' sake.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 05:51:47 PM
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UK: Roleclaim please for completeness' sake.
Sorry, Vanilla. (Meant to add that in but got lost in thought as I was posting)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Edible on September 28, 2009, 06:01:50 PM
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have some completely ridiculous amount of time remaining.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 07:02:21 PM
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Rou: I'd like your opinion on Affinity. If you don't think Serp is Scum and you say you're not Scum, what do you think of Affinity?
Affinity, like Sodium, is bad for immediately jumping to the assumption that Serp is scum and needs to be lynched. The reasoning for this is that unless Serp is scum (which I still hold is unlikely), he's the only player who can potentially prevent lylo in the event of a mislynch. If they lynch him today there's no risk of him hitting one of their own tonight and ruining their victory.
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You've even had a chance to respond to Serp and I see your stance there, but then, who else is Scum?
As bad as this is going to sound...I'm really not that certain about you, Kiro. In particular, I find it hard to believe you'd so willingly accept that Serp was scum when the hits make so little sense. You still haven't answered my question - why would scum want to off Kilga and Zakeri in the same night?
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Also, why is a Scum Vig unfair when we also have the Kevorkian Doc as opposed to Town having both of them?
We're assuming that scum doesn't have something like Godfather. Personally I don't see the Kevorkian Doc as that much of a vig - one hit at the cost of all future protects is a big ask. Also, given that the MotK mainstay of the cop doesn't seem to be present, it only makes sense Edible would give us something else in its place.
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And the thing is that if Serp was Scum, it's not certain they expected a case to arise on him so soon. So perhaps Scum just decided to off who they thought were the most perceptive people in the game and possibly take Serp as a loss.
I find this hard to believe. If Serp is a Hitman, they'd hold onto him for as long as possible, and I don't see why they'd panic so much over him when he got all of two votes on D2. :/
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kiro on September 28, 2009, 07:36:56 PM
So Rou, redefine your case on either Affinity or Sodium as if you're preparing to vote them. I'm not asking you for why we shouldn't lynch Serp right now. There's more than one possible case out there so I'd rather not you tunnel on a defense of Serp. Scumhunt for other cases.
And the thing is that if Serp was Scum, it's not certain they expected a case to arise on him so soon. So perhaps Scum just decided to off who they thought were the most perceptive people in the game and possibly take Serp as a loss. Even if Scum Serp was lynched in Day 3, they have 2 people left who could reasonably still win the game.
What I think about a Mafia Vig though is that it has to be single shot. Any additional shot makes it imbalanced. So a Mafia Vig would presumably fire it off once he's in danger. After that, he's just a normal Goon and could be counted as a loss perhaps. Thoughts are going out quick, lunchtime.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 07:53:51 PM
EBWOP: Hell, after some more thought I've come to a realisation.
The fact we are in potential Lylo rather than actual Lylo outright proves that Serp can't be scum.
If Serp were a hitman, or indeed if scum had any sort of hitman, then this would be an obvious outright lylo. The fact we can still win in spite of that shows that Serp can't be scum. Even in the event of a No Lynch, it would be game over if Serp was hitman. Therefore I see no reason to lynch him today, because whether he's Town or SK his death effectively kills off the Town.
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What I think about a Mafia Vig though is that it has to be single shot. Any additional shot makes it imbalanced. So a Mafia Vig would presumably fire it off once he's in danger. After that, he's just a normal Goon and could be counted as a loss perhaps. Thoughts are going out quick, lunchtime.
Then why did he go to the effort of roleclaiming as an even-night vig rather than a one-shot vig? And again, firing because you received about two votes is pretty paranoid.
Right now? I'm very close to throwing a vote down on you ahead of either of them, Kiro. Mainly on the basis that I honestly don't believe that you'd be single-minded enough to not consider these possibilities if you were Town. Hell, quoting you DIRECTLY from D3:
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If Serp is a Mafia Vig: Then the Zakeri kill is standard reduction of numbers while at the same time coordinated with the Kilga kill, places himself in the forefront. And he continues the Suwako pursuit which is gutsy. Either he'd be lynched and Suwako gets a further clear which is good for Town if Suwako is Town or devestating for Town if Suwako is Scum. Or (as the latest developments might suggest), we lynch Suwako. If Suwako flips Town, that kind of ensures the Serp lynch will follow which is a terrible strategy for Scum as it is a 1:1 trade when they reasonably did not need one.
Why the sudden change of opinion? I don't see how the doc flip changes things that dramatically, especially since Pesco himself didn't see a problem with it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 08:30:33 PM
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The fact we are in potential Lylo rather than actual Lylo outright proves that Serp can't be scum.
Not necessarily. What if Serp is lying and he's a one shot mafia vig, as proposed by Kiro?
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Then why did he go to the effort of roleclaiming as an even-night vig rather than a one-shot vig? And again, firing because you received about two votes is pretty paranoid.
So a) someone like you would fall for it hook line and sinker, or b) because you're his scumbuddy and planned to bring that up.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 09:17:43 PM
So a) someone like you would fall for it hook line and sinker, or b) because you're his scumbuddy and planned to bring that up.
This is WIFOM to an extreme. Serp was called out on the spot after Nietz caught him visiting Zak, so to think he'd have the time to come up with a plan like this involving claiming even-night vig and then having his buddy pull out this defense at Lylo?
If Serp doesn't have a kill, then it's still just a normal even-player Lylo. The only way for this not to be lylo is for there to be a non-scum directed kill that could save Town in the event of a mislynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 09:52:38 PM
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If Serp doesn't have a kill, then it's still just a normal even-player Lylo. The only way for this not to be lylo is for there to be a non-scum directed kill that could save Town in the event of a mislynch.
It is lylo though, didn't edible say that? Well, mylo, actually, but still.
8 players. If you no lynch we still have 7 players and I'm assuming 3 scum.
If you lynch however, and you're wrong, then game is likely over D5.
I do not see your logic of how this clears Serpy?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 09:57:56 PM
If you lynch however, and you're wrong, then game is likely over D5.
This is my point. If the game is likely to be over, that means there's a chance that it won't be over. If that was the case we'd just get told outright 'you're in lylo'.
The only way for us to survive a mislynch is to have a non-scum-directed kill, and the only claimed killing role is Serp. Pretty sure that train of thought speaks for itself.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 10:12:16 PM
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This is my point. If the game is likely to be over, that means there's a chance that it won't be over. If that was the case we'd just get told outright 'you're in lylo'.
The only way for us to survive a mislynch is to have a non-scum-directed kill, and the only claimed killing role is Serp. Pretty sure that train of thought speaks for itself.
Allow me to poke a hole in your logic. Not with red text, but with mod posts.
To all of those labelling me as obvscum, please keep in mind that Pesco knew he wasn't the only partial vig role, and he still believed me strongly enough to swing the lynch away from me and towards Suwako.
What the hell, why should we assume that he had privileged information?
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I at least have proof that at least one scum was bussing VgameT, and if that's the case, maybe they all were. A conspiracy of a different sort.
Way to appeal to extremes and fearmongering. And calling your theory a stretch would be a huge euphemism. It's a clear example of a desperate move to take the lynch away from you.
The more I think about it, the more a one-shot hitman makes sense for Serp. Anthony and Tenshi brought most of the D2 attention on themselves, so he lurks and gets a pass despite Suwako calling him on all his D1 scumminess, but it was clear that he was going to be the main case on D3 (which is why tracked him in the first place). Somehow his strategy of lurking and waiting for another case to show up actually works, and despite my claim town actually decides to lynch Suwako for not being cute enough.
SK was the only option that could make him not-scum in my eyes, and as it is I'm convinced that he's either scum or the setup is screwed up and then it really doesn't matter.
Ready to Vote: Serpentarius
Follow-up is Rou, not only by his previous actions but by the sheer amount of craplogic the he's using to defend Serp.
I'm actually getting highly irritated with how half the Town has decided that Serp is obvscum when the most obvious sign that something is amiss - the death on N2 - suggests either Town has a vig, or scum has one of the cheapest and most unfair roles out there. I've never played a game with a Hitman before, and I hope to keep it that way.
I played a one-shot Hitman here before. Stop acting like you think the role is impossible.
If we assume a Hitman does exist, why would he target Zak of all people? Kilga was on the Serp wagon as well, so hitting BOTH of the players who'd been following him so fiercely would be a dead giveaway.
It would be a huge WIFOM, that is. And you seem to forget that Kilga and Zak were both killed, and that was far from being brought as a main point against Serp until I accused him.
You also keep insisting that he wasn't at danger because of two votes, while I think it was pretty clear that he would be the main case for D3, however Tenshi and Anthony flipped (and specially if you knew they'd flip Town).
It also occurs to me that one of the townies could be bomb or bulletproof, it would make sense for them not to claim it, and it could - potentially - allow for Town to survive a mislynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 10:26:35 PM
It also occurs to me that one of the townies could be bomb or bulletproof, it would make sense for them not to claim it, and it could - potentially - allow for Town to survive a mislynch.
Then if that were the case, now would be a good time for them to come out with it so that Serp doesn't get a free pass, wouldn't it? Plus, considering there's already apparently at least a tracker and a doc in the Town, isn't adding a BP on top of that more or less overkill? That is, of course, assuming your tracker claim is Town-affiliated.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Sodium on September 28, 2009, 10:31:24 PM
Rou. Tell me where I said Pesco was the one who did the Zak kill. Do I have to spoon feed you everything? When I said I doubted that there are two Night Vigs, I meant two town Night Vigs, not Two Night Vigs of differing alignment.
Oh, and blatant chainsaw, Rou.
Serp gives... a conspiracy theory! On Nietz! And his defense is "Guys, look at all those dead guys that believed me! I'm not obvscum!".
Stupid lylo related crap. We're probably in the lylo where a mislynch + NK is required from scum to win. Serp isn't an SK(he said so himself), and he isn't town by any likely means(if he is, I will facedesk hard), so he's scum. Rou is still trying to tell people that Serp is a SK, and that we need him if we mislynch. I'd rather lynch scum right now, rather then later.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 10:33:01 PM
I think this pretty much proves my point, actually.
Actually, I just realized the mod can't answer that question.
It would reveal too much about the set up. so we are at a deadlock.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 10:39:45 PM
Yeah, I'm tired of arguing this point. Potential Lylo <> Lylo. If we were in outright Lylo, the GM would tell us as such rather than play around with maybes and potentials.
Quote
Stupid lylo related crap. We're probably in the lylo where a mislynch + NK is required from scum to win.
When Edible just said that doing so may not result in a Town loss?
Quote
I'm fairly confident that Serp was lying about being a vig now, and is thus scum
I read this without considering the potential of a hitman role, but I still don't think Serp is scum even in retrospect.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 10:41:18 PM
Actually, I just realized the mod can't answer that question.
No, he did answer the question. He just said that a mislynch will not necessarily result in a scum win. That proves the existence of a non-scum-directed kill.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 10:47:08 PM
Quote
When Edible just said that doing so may not result in a Town loss?
Well, if scum were retarded an no killed or something. Actually, I don't see anything that outright says it might not end in a town loss.
Quote
No, he did answer the question. He just said that a mislynch will not necessarily result in a scum win. That proves the existence of a non-scum-directed kill.
Are you..
For the love of...
No...ok, I can't go off at you being as blind as a bat and with the reading comprehension of one as well. Instead I'll ask PRECISELY where this was confirmed.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Nietz on September 28, 2009, 10:53:14 PM
EBWOP: Then if that were the case, now would be a good time for them to come out with it so that Serp doesn't get a free pass, wouldn't it?
No, because that would completely negate the chances that they will be targeted. And besides, you are the only one who wants to get Serp a pass.
Quote
Plus, considering there's already apparently at least a tracker and a doc in the Town, isn't adding a BP on top of that more or less overkill? That is, of course, assuming your tracker claim is Town-affiliated.
Not if scum has a hitman, a voteblocker, and possibly another role. And if it's a bomb, it also has a chance of hitting Town upon hammer.
No, he did answer the question. He just said that a mislynch will not necessarily result in a scum win. That proves the existence of a non-scum-directed kill.
Jesus Youkai Christ, you just keep repeating things as if trying to make them truer. Are you actually trying to move Serp's lynch onto you?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 11:03:21 PM
Well, if scum were retarded an no killed or something. Actually, I don't see anything that outright says it might not end in a town loss.
This is the worst reasoning I've ever seen. Last time we had a situation like that a mislynch led to an immediate victory for scum.
Here's another question - the bomb should be doing their utmost to make themself a target for the scum NK. By this logic, the obvious bomb would have been Suwako, but she flipped vanilla. Likewise with bulletproof to a lesser extent. After her the next target would be Kilga, but he was vanilla as well. I can't see any players who are playing with a bomb/BP mindset at this point.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 11:06:49 PM
Quote
This is the worst reasoning I've ever seen. Last time we had a situation like that a mislynch led to an immediate victory for scum.
Obviously you don't read your own writing then.
And plus, who's to say Edible does that? Mislynch to immediate scum victory?
Quote
Here's another question - the bomb should be doing their utmost to make themself a target for the scum NK. By this logic, the obvious bomb would have been Suwako, but she flipped vanilla.
What kinda stupid logic is this? Suwa was an obvious mislynch for most of the game!
You also didn't answer my question. While I regret being so rude in asking it, the spirit is the same.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 11:11:34 PM
What kinda stupid logic is this? Suwa was an obvious mislynch for most of the game!
By the end of D2 she was more or less seen as clear to everyone except Serp, IIRC. If scum had a hit I don't see why they choose her for it over Zakeri who I still feel would have been a more obvious mislynch on D3.
And my point is still that if this WAS a simple matter of 'we pick the wrong person, we lose', we'd be outright told 'Town is in Lylo'. I don't see anyone who I feel has been playing like a BP or Bomb, so I don't see a reason not to take Serp's claim fo what it is.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 11:21:26 PM
Quote
By the end of D2 she was more or less seen as clear to everyone except Serp, IIRC. If scum had a hit I don't see why they choose her for it over Zakeri who I still feel would have been a more obvious mislynch on D3.
I still don't know how the suwa lynch happened...but you have a point. But I don't she'd be NK'd either.
Quote
And my point is still that if this WAS a simple matter of 'we pick the wrong person, we lose', we'd be outright told 'Town is in Lylo'. I don't see anyone who I feel has been playing like a BP or Bomb, so I don't see a reason not to take Serp's claim fo what it is.
One problem. We can no lynch.
Oh hey, not lylo!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 11:35:19 PM
We'd still be told that it was Lylo. The fact there's an even number of players makes NL an obvious option.
That said, I don't think we should NL because it puts a lot at risk. If Serp is Town he'll either have to not shoot and therefore we've managed to prove nothing, or shoot into the crowd and hope he hits scum (because if he doesn't it's game over). Scum aren't going to hit him if he's town because the entire game more or less rests on his shoulders right now. If he's scum, he either can't shoot or - worse - he still can, meaning that Town loses anyway.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 11:38:19 PM
Quote
We'd still be told that it was Lylo. The fact there's an even number of players makes NL an obvious option.
And did you notice the fact that...um...yanno, they SAID IT WAS POTENTIALLY LYLO!
This would be due to the NL chance.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 28, 2009, 11:52:56 PM
Here's the crux - if it's POTENTIALLY Lylo, that means if we mislynch we POTENTIALLY lose. Not we can POTENTIALLY lynch and then lose if we mislynch. Key difference, and I've never seen a GM say 'potential lylo' in mylo before.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 28, 2009, 11:55:11 PM
Here's the crux - if it's POTENTIALLY Lylo, that means if we mislynch we POTENTIALLY lose. Not we can POTENTIALLY lynch and then lose if we mislynch. Key difference, and I've never seen a GM say 'potential lylo' in mylo before.
Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This is the only place I've seen people declare lylo, but at any rate what's Edible's personal history on the matter?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Affinity on September 29, 2009, 01:04:58 AM
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I find this hard to believe. If Serp is a Hitman, they'd hold onto him for as long as possible, and I don't see why they'd panic so much over him when he got all of two votes on D2. :/
This is pretty wrong. Serp was the case on everyone's lips on day two and three, merely looking at things by votes while disregard the sentiment put forward by, uhh, you, Kiro and others sounds remarkably short-sighted. You have the mindset of a conspiracy theorist indulging in confirmation bias.
Quote
Here's another question - the bomb should be doing their utmost to make themself a target for the scum NK. By this logic, the obvious bomb would have been Suwako, but she flipped vanilla.
What kind of logic is that? What scum would want to NK Suwako? And why, if you can identify roles at the drop of the hat, you shouldn't be playing this game.
While I can't discredit Rou's theory as totally crackpot, the opportunity for us to no lynch already makes it 'potential' without any additional premises. Therefore, the idea that the word 'potentially' cancels out the entire case is refuted. (Oh called by UK). However, I'm not willing to peg Rou as any more scummy for this, since it's a reasonable conclusion to make, though, what, total disregard for everything about Serp's direct play and theory is laughable. More concerning is the fact that he went from 'I'm not sure about you, Kiro" to "oh you are the scummiest alive now" in the span of one post for a selective quote is bad, and there is a motive for this because he might want to deflect votes off Serp, but had no one to implicate.
---
And Serp does sound like a cornered wombat. His theory is plausible, but since I know that I'm vanilla town, it's not true from my point of view whichever way; there's no reason to take such a gambit on day 3 from scum Nietz's point of view; scum weren't in the best of positions to try that in my opinion.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 29, 2009, 01:30:17 AM
At this point it's lynch order. Do we take out Serp first or go after Rou? Rou's been more scummy to me, but Serpy is well and truly cornered, practically obv scum at this point. On the offchance he DOES have more than one shot maybe we should lynch Serpy first.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Serp on September 29, 2009, 01:55:13 AM
Quote from: Kiro
Serp, you should tell us why Scum Tracker Nietz would choose to reveal himself in tracking you.
At the time, he was starting to come under suspicion. He probably wanted to play on the reluctance of the town to believe that there would be a scum tracker role and confirm himself as not a viable lynch. Furthermore, I think that scum would have benefitted more from myself getting lynched than if Suwako had - what would you be thinking right now if Pesco had come down against me instead of Suwako? With my flip to confirm that at most two of the three remaining scum were on Suwako, Suwako might well have been a shoo-in to mislynch in LyLo.
Quote from: Kiro
I'm just not seeing the Day 3 Suwako wagon to be all Townies and you not commenting on any of those people is disturbing. Because if you're lynched as Scum today, you're not giving us any leads as to who else might be your buddy from these wagons. Opinions on Rou, Affinity, and myself in particular please.
I didn't comment on anyone but Nietz because I know that no alternative lynch to my own comes up, we lose, and I see Nietz as the best one. Still, no harm in having a statement down for the record, I suppose. My points against Roukanken from D3 still hold, but him going all out in defense of me in LyLo doesn't make much sense for scum. He could be counting on the WIFOM of the situation, I suppose, so I wouldn't clear him, but he's far from my primary case.
I've got nothing on Affinity. His reasoning for going after Suwako over VgameT was solid, and it was reasonable enough to back off during D2, but he retained that suspicion enough to listen to my case D3. It's all consistent, so the only point against him is being on the wrong wagon D1. He's not on my scumdar. You, Kiro, didn't go after Suwako D1, which probably works out to make you look even less scummy. It's a little weird, considering your meta, for you to have gone after Anthony D2 when you normally prefer to avoid jumping on policy lynches, but we had to take care of him sooner or later.
I think that the most plausible scumbuddies to Nietz are actually Sodium and Kitten4u, since a Nietz scumflip would imply that scum heavily favored a Serp lynch to a Suwako one D3. This is on top of how they're both pushing the "Serp is obvscum, duh" angle, and the strangeness from Kitten4u on D3. If I have to name a secondary lynch, Kitten4u would be the one.
Quote from: Nietz
What the hell, why should we assume that he had privileged information?
I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Pesco had access to his own role PM. :V
Quote from: Sodium
Serp gives... a conspiracy theory! On Nietz! And his defense is "Guys, look at all those dead guys that believed me! I'm not obvscum!".
Well, it's more that people are saying that being wrong about Suwako makes me obvscum, despite the fact that Suwako knew I was wrong and didn't hold it against me. They're saying that Pesco having a vig makes me obvscum, despite the fact that Pesco knew he had a vig, and didn't find my claim suspicious.
Quote from: Affinity
And Serp does sound like a cornered wombat. His theory is plausible, but since I know that I'm vanilla town, it's not true from my point of view whichever way; there's no reason to take such a gambit on day 3 from scum Nietz's point of view; scum weren't in the best of positions to try that in my opinion.
I don't follow. How does knowing your own alignment discredit the theory?
Anyway, I'm fine with a No Lynch, too, if you all need me to confirm that I'm not a one-shot hitman. I'll submit to the town's choice of target for my ability. I'd rather lynch someone else today and then use my ability tonight, to have another chance of hitting scum, but better to have one shot than no shot at all.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kiro on September 29, 2009, 02:27:18 AM
Rou, regarding your #661, I already revised my opinion in Day 4 with the following:
I have to revise my earlier opinion about Mafia Serp being willing to push the Suwako mislynch again as it forced us into LYLO with no room for error. Presumably a better alternative to being lynched a Day earlier and he almost certainly had help from some scum to get there.
It's something I didn't consider correctly because Serp was already high on the suspect list so why not try to run with it and grab the Suwako mislynch. A 1:1 is preferable to a 0:1. If you look at his statements today, I think that implicates him pretty heavily as he ignores the 3 people on Suwako's wagon and goes for the person who happens to be the opposing power role for balance issues. That may seem like the obvious choice in his point of view, but unfortunately, it's not so clear cut to the rest of us. Where are the cases for the Scum that are likely to have been on the Suwako wagon? He is not providing any of those opinions. In essence, lack of true scumhunting and just settles on the case that can only make sense to him due to his claimed role.
And going all the way down to that long argument about potential LYLO, I think that's a case of trying to guess the setup too much. The mods say it's potential, but only they know the reasons they say that. Edible hasn't modded a game here before so there's no history to track and maybe he never intended to declare true LYLO. But if you want to take his words literally, the bulletproof suggestion by Nietz actually makes sense. Of course a person with that role wouldn't reveal it, it negates the "potential" aspect. So we're back to Square One and giving Serp the clear on that alone is not true scumhunting and actually downright suspicious. At least push for someone else's lynch in Serp's place if you're going to be so stubborn about it. If you don't think it's him and it's not you, there's 2 other targets out there and let's hear who you think they might be.
I'll get my thoughts about Serp's latest post out in a bit, quick glance shows I need to reread a bit.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Nietz on September 29, 2009, 02:29:28 AM
I don't think it's a stretch to assume that Pesco had access to his own role PM. :V
Why should he know that there was another partial vig role, as opposed to SK or hitman? At best (or, in fact, worse) he could've assumed it. And pesco making wrong assumptions doesn't help your case at all.
At this point, the only thing I can think against lynching Serp is that despite what he said he might still be a regular SK whose N1 kill got thwarted by pesco. But I'm not to crazy about that hypothesis.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 29, 2009, 03:53:05 AM
Quote from: Rou
Don't like how K4U is simply saying 'Serp and Rou are scum' without giving the slightest consideration to the Pesco hit.
Uh, that was taking Pesco's death into account? Considering I didn't believe Serp's claim yesterday what makes you think that two flips that make him look worse would suddenly make me think he's town? Several people had already said that, so I didn't see much of a reason to repeat them.
I agree with comments about Serp's case. He's looking like cornered scum to me.
Quote from: Serp
the strangeness from Kitten4u on D3.
I'm assuming this is refering to the post where I try to rationalize Suwako being scum. I stand by what I said there. The only way I could see him being scum was if they planned it and if they planned it I imagine that they would be earlier on the wagon so that they would look better. But Suwako flipped town so 1) I couldn't have been trying to make it look like I'd be suprised when he flipped scum 2) I couldn't have been setting up lynches for when he flipped scum. If you want to say that I was setting up lynches for when he flipped town...Well I've fround Rou off since D1 and I found you scummy long before I even said that soooo why is this off?
---
I can actually understand where Rou is coming from with the "potential LYLO" thing, but based on what everyone else is saying it might not mean anything. And since Kevorkian doc + tracker vs votestealer + hitman makes more sense to me than Kevorkian doc + vig vs. vote stealer + tracker I'm leaning towards it not meaning what Rou thinks it means.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 29, 2009, 12:26:41 PM
Okay, fine. Let me be as condescending about my case as I possibly can to explain where I stand. Not that it matters anymore, given that I've apparently been demonised for not thinking Serp is obvscum. >_>
The main point going against Serp right now is that he is scum for approving of the Suwako wagon. I don't agree with this, because being wrong <> being scum (otherwise I'd have been lynched a long time ago >_>). Suwako was almost deliberately unhelpful, and her constant reprimanding of the entire thread did nothing to help matters. Hell, by Day 3 enough people apparently agreed with him to go along with Suwako's lynch, so why are we suddenly turning on him for it?
Quote
If you look at his statements today, I think that implicates him pretty heavily as he ignores the 3 people on Suwako's wagon and goes for the person who happens to be the opposing power role for balance issues. That may seem like the obvious choice in his point of view, but unfortunately, it's not so clear cut to the rest of us.
WHAT? I don't see how this is anything other than clear cut. We're almost definitely dealing with either Vig/Doc vs. VB/Tracker, or Tracker/Doc vs. VB/Hitman in terms of balance. Why is it scummy for Serp to make the obvious choice?
As much as I hate Kiro for being abnormally blind to the possibilities and convinced that Serp is obvscum, I have to admit that Vig/Tracker/Doc is not a likely combo given that scum only seems to have a voteblocker in return. Therefore:
##Unvote: Whoever I Was Voting Vote: Nietz
Pesco still valued you as a target ahead of Serp on D3. He was willing to trust me, so I'm putting trust in him.
Yes, I'm putting all my eggs in one basket. Yes, I'm aware that if I'm wrong I've basically singlehandedly killed the Town one way or another. No, I don't care, because I'm tired of this game.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: UncertainJakutten on September 29, 2009, 03:45:57 PM
Quote
The main point going against Serp right now is that he is scum for approving of the Suwako wagon. I don't agree with this, because being wrong <> being scum
Wrong.
The main point against Serp is the fact that he hasn't been doing any real scumhunting, was pretty much not saying anything useful D1 and I do believe D2 as well, among other things I'd have to delve back and bring up my wall for.
Yanno what? I don't care. One of them needs to die today, and the other tomorrow. Sound good?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Edible on September 29, 2009, 05:03:00 PM
Vote Count: Persona PSP is easier than the original Nietz (2): Serpentarius, Roukanken Serpentarius (1): Sodium Roukanken (1): UncertainKitten
Not voting: Everyone else
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kiro on September 29, 2009, 06:29:11 PM
Serp: If Scum were going to benefit more from getting you lynched than Suwako, why would Scum Tracker Nietz reveal you're a Vig? By itself, Vig is more likely to be Town than Scum and that would have reduced your chances of being lynched. Your case for why a Scum Nietz revealed himself still doesn't make sense. Furthermore, if Pesco also decided to come down against you, it would have been considered appropriately whether he roleclaimed his Kevorkian Doc role or not. Don't see what appealing to what selected dead Townies thought has to do with anything. Several Townies were wrong, why are you not mentioning what Anthony, the dominant Day 2 wagon, thought?
In regards to the other scum, you're saying Nietz, Sodium, and K4U are it? So there was no scum help in pushing Suwako (other than VgT) on Day 1 and none on Day 3? You realize how farfetched that sounds? I'd half agree with your reasons on Rou, but the ones for Affinity looks sketchy. His reason for going on Suwako looks good and he backed off in Day 2 but went again on Day 3 when you brought it up again? How are you not considering that as possibly opportunistic? Affinity has not voted correctly once unless we assume that his vote on Rou is in hindsight, correct. And you think both of them are Townie still? In regards to me, clearing me while waffling on something you perceive as part of my meta doesn't make sense either. And explain better why a Nietz scumflip favors your mislynch over Suwako's when you both are inextricably linked and both Townie in such a situation? I think what I stated in my first paragraph shows there would have been no preference between you and Suwako. So I think that debunks the premise for your suspicion on K4U and Sodium. I feel your clearing of virtually everyone else on the Suwako wagons is not convincing enough and not realistic enough given the game's environment.
Rou: I'm not finding Serp additionally scummy for making the obvious choice, what I am finding him additionally scummy for is not talking about other targets while he first voted Nietz. If he's Town and in the hot seat, he should be telling us everything he can think of including who the scumbuddies might be. It's obvious he should have thought about it at Night, but he only mentions Nietz first before he's prodded to mention other targets. It's obvious to him, but from his position, it's anti-Townie to not mention anybody else and he knows that. However, such behavior while in the hot seat fits Scum better because he distances himself from possible scumbuddies.
Could use some more input from Affinity and some updates from Sodium and K4U. Also waiting for Nietz to directly address the case and votes levied on him.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Nietz on September 29, 2009, 09:29:38 PM
At this point, the only thing I can think against lynching Serp is that despite what he said he might still be a regular SK whose N1 kill got thwarted by pesco. But I'm not to crazy about that hypothesis.
Actually, his N3 would have to be prevented too, so that makes it more improbable. I guess it's definitely scum then.
Serp is just flaying around and trying to somehow save himself without giving any useful hint to Town. I would be fine with his lynch anytime, though I would like one more day to let me look over the other players and try to give some opinions, since I'll likely be the NK. Anyway, ##Vote Serpentarius, since I don't think I can change my mind by now.
As for Rou, he's trying so hard to link himself with Serp that I can only think that he wants to look "too scum to be scum" after Serp's flip. Though I can't help being amused at that "lover's trust" with pesco he mentioned. ;)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Sodium on September 29, 2009, 09:34:44 PM
Pesco still valued you as a target ahead of Serp on D3. He was willing to trust me, so I'm putting trust in him.
Yes, I'm putting all my eggs in one basket. Yes, I'm aware that if I'm wrong I've basically singlehandedly killed the Town one way or another. No, I don't care, because I'm tired of this game.
...You're voting Nietz because Pesco, a dead man(with whom you have a love-hate relationship), put Nietz ahead of Serp, and because of Serp's crackpot theory? What the fuck?
Rou for obvSerpBuddy
Serp is attacking the people attacking him! Whoo!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Edible on September 29, 2009, 09:48:17 PM
Vote Count: Don't Believe In Rou, Believe In Pesco Who Believed In Rou Nietz (2): Serpentarius, Roukanken Serpentarius (2): Sodium, Nietz Roukanken (1): UncertainKitten
Not voting: Kiro, Kitten4U, Affinity
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Affinity on September 29, 2009, 11:18:47 PM
Sorry, was celebrating my birthday yesterday.
---
@Serp:
It's because I don't think Nietz as a scum tracker has anything to gain from randomly choosing a townie as the fake 'investigation' you were considering on N1, instead of his scumteam.
---
@Kiro:
I believe that Serp already said that my suspicion against Suwako had been telegraphed throughout the previous days, which is true. That answers that point.
---
Despite me thinking that what Serp said is decent enough, it came too late, since this is a case of guilty until proved innocent. I still think that he's the right lynch today, and that the 'potential' Lylo could mean anything. More later.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 30, 2009, 12:00:47 AM
...You're voting Nietz because Pesco, a dead man(with whom you have a love-hate relationship), put Nietz ahead of Serp, and because of Serp's crackpot theory? What the fuck?
The way I see it the game's over anyway. Either you guys are wrong, Serp gets lynched (since apparently no-one's listening to me) and we lose; or you're right, I get lynched tomorrow, and we still lose. If it's set in stone like that (which by now it pretty much is), I may as well go down with the ship while the orchestra plays in the background rather than freeze to death in the tepid wastes of uncertainty. (And before you ask, it's 1am. Sleep deprivation may be leaving me overly poetic at this point in time.) Basically, I'm sick of this game and I want it to end one way or another. >_>
I'll note though that there are exactly three people labelling me as obvscum for supporting Serp at this juncture - Nietz, Sodium and UK. Sounds vaguely like 'if we can get either of these two lynched, it works'.
Quote
Rou: I'm not finding Serp additionally scummy for making the obvious choice, what I am finding him additionally scummy for is not talking about other targets while he first voted Nietz. If he's Town and in the hot seat, he should be telling us everything he can think of including who the scumbuddies might be. It's obvious he should have thought about it at Night, but he only mentions Nietz first before he's prodded to mention other targets.
Couldn't you accuse UK of doing the same by basically going for me for, well, the last three days and putting everyone else aside? Or Nietz for producing more or less nothing today other than 'Serp is scum because of A, B and C'?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 30, 2009, 12:01:08 AM
EBWOP: And happy belated birthday, Affinity.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 30, 2009, 02:55:43 AM
I don't really have much to add.
Serp's case looks like a huge OMGUS with a healthy dollop of conspiracy theories to try to support it. He still looks like cornered scum and it looks like he's desperately trying to get someone else lynched to me. Still my top lynch choice for today.
Rou is actually confusing me. I think Serp is scum, so I'm not sure why scum!Rou (assuming that Serp is scum) would defend him like this, but I also find Rou scummy enough that he could be scum even without this. Hm...I'm still leaning scum at the moment. Besides the things I've been suspicious about since D1 he's also voted on all three of the wagons that Serp's pushed, and I'm under the impression that he thought Suwako was town and that he thinks Nietz is town (correct me if I'm wrong Rou). This is...extremely weird to put it mildly. He's also made no effort to push other cases even though he's convinced that Serp is town, which is also weird. Combined with everything else I simply can't clear him because of the defense.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Edible on September 30, 2009, 02:59:22 AM
Votecount is unchanged.
You have, uh... 14 hours left or so? Feel free to ##Extend; I'll give you another day if you think you need it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 30, 2009, 03:01:08 AM
he thinks Nietz is town (correct me if I'm wrong Rou).
I think Nietz is as guilty of not contributing to conversation as Serp is, and the only reason he's been let off is his claim yesterday. Scum rolecop isn't impossible, and in terms of balance one of Nietz or Serp is most likely scum. I'm going all in and going for the former.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Sodium on September 30, 2009, 03:13:24 AM
...Wait, what? We only have that much time left? The hell.
Roukan: You're obvscumbuddy if Serp flips scum. I am almost certain that Serp is scum. If he's town, then I don't even know what Serp was doing this game. Well anyways, you're obvscumybuddy because: constant defense of Serp voting Nietz for... questionable reasons chainsaw of VGT joined Serp in a crusade against Suwako
Won't make deadline, so keeping vote on Serp.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 30, 2009, 03:24:10 AM
@Rou Ah, okay. Who do you think are his buddies?
I'll be on for about another 30 mins, and I may be on a few hours before the deadline. Not sure if I will be or not, so I'll be sure to vote before I get off tonight.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 30, 2009, 03:31:34 AM
It's a hard choice, to be fair. UK has been tunneling me pretty much all game, but I don't know how much of a scum that makes her. Affinity was almost cheerleading the Suwako lynch for a while on D3 and came in with Serp is obvscum today, so he's probably likely. Kiro...I just have bad vibes about him. I'm really irritated I can't put it into words, but he seems a little strange this game. Sodium is another guy screaming obvscum Serp, but to be fair I don't see all 3 scum doing the same thing. So I'd put Affinity down as the most likely buddy first and foremost. If I had to guess third, I'd go out on a limb and go for Kiro.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 30, 2009, 03:33:17 AM
EBWOP: It also doesn't help that Nietz and Affinity are saying something along the lines of 'It's possible that Serp really ISN'T scum, but...'. It's like they're distancing themselves from the lynch, which in Lylo can't be good.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kitten4u on September 30, 2009, 04:04:17 AM
Okay, I have to get off and I'm not sure if I'll be back on before the deadline so... ##Vote Serpentarius
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kiro on September 30, 2009, 04:33:45 AM
Affinity: Just because you telegraphed your suspicion of Suwako throughout the game doesn't make it Townie in nature. A bad lynch is still a bad lynch. Waiting for what else you have to say.
Rou: I don't think Nietz has avoided discussion. If you look back through Day 4, he stated why he found Serp suspicious at the start, didn't like the theories Serp put out and has also taken the time to comment and voice his suspicions about you and talk about the LYLO debate. If you think he's trying to distance himself from the Serp lynch by expressing doubt in #689, I'm not really seeing that. He thought Pesco might have blocked the second N1 kill, but retracted that statement because it doesn't explain the lack of a second N3 kill. The substance of that hesitance doesn't really qualify as distancing.
I'm a little wary of the contrast of comments about Rou that K4U and Sodium make. K4U takes the time to think about it a little more while Sodium is quite direct with his declaration. Given that what Rou is doing is an obvious WIFOM regardless of Rou's alignment, I'm a bit more wary of Sodium's bluntness rather than K4U's analysis.
Leaning towards a Serp vote, but want those updates from him and Affinity before I vote.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 30, 2009, 06:32:59 AM
Vote Count: I'd Give You Everything I've Got For A Little Peace Of Mind Nietz (2): Serpentarius, Roukanken Serpentarius (3): Sodium, Nietz, Kitten4u Roukanken (1): UncertainKitten
Not voting: Kiro, Affinity
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
You have a little under 11 hours remaining
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Affinity on September 30, 2009, 07:47:11 AM
Quote
Affinity: Just because you telegraphed your suspicion of Suwako throughout the game doesn't make it Townie in nature. A bad lynch is still a bad lynch. Waiting for what else you have to say
Quote
How are you not considering that as possibly opportunistic?
These two are almost direct contradictions, since the first quote has shown that it's not opportunistic. While I agree that telegraphing doesn't make it townie in nature at all, it has not made me more scummy either, judging from Zakeri and other's flip of town on pursuing Suwako.
I have not cheerled either. I've questioned, stated opinions on D2, and voted, which does not make it cheerleading.
Thanks Rou for the wish (actually it's today but I celebrated yesterday), but still, saying that it's possible doesn't mean anything because I don't think it's probable at all. Also, at this point in time, there's no point in distancing yourself from a bandwagon which would probably be a game-ender that isn't correct, since my vote is pretty much on Serp potentially (on Nietz it is even worse because he already voted him in the first place). His continued absence has not given us much to work with, so....
##Vote: Serpentarius
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on September 30, 2009, 12:33:02 PM
Screw it, no way we're gonna get anything in the last 5 hours. You guys had better be right.
##Unvote: Nietz Hammer Vote: Serp
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Kilgamayan on September 30, 2009, 03:07:07 PM
Final Day 4 Vote Count: Down Goes Frazier, Down Goes Frazier Nietz (1): Serpentarius Serpentarius (5): Sodium, Nietz, Kitten4u, Affinity, Roukanken Roukanken (1): UncertainKitten
No vote: Kiro
Serpentarius, thought to be playing Remilia Scarlet, but really playing Remirya (Scum One-Shot Limited Vig) can't take it easy anymore!
It is now Night 4. Remember, please send all night actions to both of us.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 4) - Another Day, Another Dollar
Post by: Edible on September 30, 2009, 06:01:00 PM
(http://i33.tinypic.com/358e2kj.jpg)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 4) - Another Day, Another Dollar
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 01, 2009, 02:41:14 PM
Dawn of the Fifth Day
Nietz, playing Watatsuki no Yorihime, Town Tracker, got hit BANG! ZOOM! Straight to the moon!
With 6 remaining, it takes 4 to lynch. You have 72 hours. You are still in pseudo-LYLO.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Nietz on October 01, 2009, 03:12:21 PM
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9131/yorirearview.jpg) Fine, you can kiss my sexy royal ass, earthling chumpettes. I'm taking the next pimpmobile back to the Moon.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 01, 2009, 03:25:19 PM
Alright, so with Nietz dead I'm very, very confused. People who were early on the Serp wagon D3 - namely Kiro, Sodium and K4U - should logically be given just about a clear today. That would leave Affinity and UK as the final scumpair in my eyes, but since Nietz returned nothing after tracking both of them I'm very confused. I'm convinced one of them is scum, but the buddy must be hiding somewhere in the crowd.
I was intending to open the day with accusations of a Nietz/Affinity scumpair, but that's apparently gone down the plughole. Seriously, that's the third day in a row my intended suspect's been hit during the night. T_T
But enough of that, let's play a fun game called Jump Around The Bandwagons. Affinity is the grand champion! D1. Umu > K4U > Suwako (no sign of VgT) D2. Anthony > Rou > Anthony D3. Rou > Suwako D4. Nietz > Nothing > Late vote on Serp
Quote from: Affinity
This is pretty wrong. Serp was the case on everyone's lips on day two and three, merely looking at things by votes while disregard the sentiment put forward by, uhh, you, Kiro and others sounds remarkably short-sighted.
Y'know, that's funny, because looking back through your D2 and D3 you don't specify any interest in the Serp case at all beyond occasionally saying 'I'll have to re-read him'. You also made an effort to clear Serp from suspicion for being a late hammer on VgT by saying 'circumstance could have screwed him over'.
##Vote: Affinity
I honestly don't know at this point who his buddy is. Tracker results suggest that UK is highly unlikely, and the remaining three were upfront on Serp and VgT. If I absolutely, positively had to choose right now, I would probably go for K4U given her late positions on the Serp and VgT wagons, effectively playing the field D1 ('I don't like VgT or Anthony or Rou') and not much in terms of contribution elsewhere. Affinity is still my top lynch for today, though.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 01, 2009, 04:08:45 PM
Before I get in a really long post (as I'm working on a reread now), just want to say that the Tracker results don't necessarily clear UK.
Affinity was tracked Night 1 with negative results, meaning he can't be the voteblocker. UK was tracked Night 3 with negative results, but the important thing to note is that Day 4, there was no voteblock in effect. In essence, it is entirely possible UK is the voteblocker and got Anthony on Day 2 and either held back (to avoid Nietz' track) or was restricted from voteblocking Night 3. I assume it's possible we could check for a voteblock again today, but the mods seems nice enough to tell us.
Nee, Kilga-chan or Edible-neechan? No voteblock today. (neechan?)
From what I've gathered so far, I'm leaning towards both Affinity and UK, but Affinity definitely is leaps above everyone else.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 01, 2009, 04:16:13 PM
I was also considering that N1 it could have been Serp who performed the kill. Assuming that he was able to perform the hit on top of being a vig, anyway. N3 Affinity is the obvious choice to perform the hit as he's already been tracked and found clear, so the voteblocker's silence that day makes sense in terms of not being discovered.
Still, it felt like it was asking a lot in terms of probability. Were it not for that, I'd very much like UK as a suspect given that she's been tunneling me since D2 and therefore avoided having much opinion on the other wagons.
Regardless, Affinity is easily my preferred lynch today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 01, 2009, 04:22:58 PM
And Rou makes no mention about his own actions yesterday about how he suddenly hammered Serp while thinking he wasn't scummy, and rehashes points that I have already addressed long ago, as well as gives... bandwagon 'switches' without any comparison or any direct relation to how im scummy. I found you scummy on D2, I switched to you, before deciding that your lynch was unlikely and switched back to Anthony. Telegraphed on D3, but Suwako was scummy and I switched to him. Citation of D4 vote on Nietz is lol because that was because of Kiro's suggestion. Argued D1 to death; keeps going back to it despite me saying that he has done the exact same thing.
Here are the posts that answer Rou's accusations.
Quote
Y'know, that's funny, because looking back through your D2 and D3 you don't specify any interest in the Serp case at all beyond occasionally saying 'I'll have to re-read him'. You also made an effort to clear Serp from suspicion for being a late hammer on VgT by saying 'circumstance could have screwed him over'
This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg99061#msg99061)
Quote
You also made an effort to clear Serp from suspicion for being a late hammer on VgT by saying 'circumstance could have screwed him over'.
True, but finding him scummy for reasons that are incorrect has to be pointed out. This is nothing subjective, but rather logical and certain. Other than that Rou's case is rehashed from the pieces of his D3 'case', and not worthy of note, given the irony. Also, misinterpretation of the quote there.
---
I don't think Roukanken is that scummy now, though I think he's a bad townie, given that such behavior is suicidal. Kiro alerts me somehow, since he pushed the Suwako case all of D3 and yet reproached Serp for starting the bandwagon on him. There was also some telegraphing in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg99362#msg99362) at the end, which seems to pre-empt what Serp is going to come out with even though he consistently slammed Serp for it on D2.
Quote
I'm not sure if Serp is planning on going for you again today, but you're sure validating any reason he may have for doing so.
... a little bit of a stretch but this seems awkward. More tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 01, 2009, 04:37:05 PM
And Rou makes no mention about his own actions yesterday about how he suddenly hammered Serp while thinking he wasn't scummy
5 hours left in the day, no way a Nietz lynch was going to happen, no-one was talking. Saw no point in prolonging the day for no reason.
Quote
This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg99061#msg99061)
You mean the post where you attack four people at once, and link back to a previous post which basically says 'Serp was part of this group which I find scummy in general' and doesn't explain why you chose him ahead of everyone else? And given that you apparently found Serp so suspicious, why do you fail to discuss him in the slightest for the rest of the day, other than a single point of 'I'm not sure about his claim'?
Quote
True, but finding him scummy for reasons that are incorrect has to be pointed out. This is nothing subjective, but rather logical and certain.
This sounds awfully like additional knowledge. Why are you so certain that Serp wasn't available to comment? He made no comment in thread of having difficulty posting.
This post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg104408#msg104408) surprises me.
Quote
I wonder why UK ignored the Serp point though, makes me feel a little queasy. If Serp flips scum, then UK probably would be a possible scumbuddy.
What happened to this, exactly? You were willing to point a finger at UK here, but now you're going for Kiro? Where did UK clear herself, exactly?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 01, 2009, 06:55:28 PM
Ok then, my first instinct is to vote Rou like mad.
However, that would be unwise. I think I should at least reread Affinity before going ahead with that...I will do that sometime today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 01, 2009, 09:17:55 PM
Oh hi Rou, you've defended both confirmed scum. ObvBuddy.
Oh, and nice hypocrisy regarding voting an hour into lylo (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg103851#msg103851).
And why would you hammer someone you think was "town" on LYLO?
Other suspicions: Kitten4U: Little contribution, possibly lurking. UK: I can see her bussing VGT, to get a smooth ride in the game, and possibly Rou, if he's scum which I'm pretty sure of. But that seems a bit absurd, to bus all your team mates.
I'm not really seeing Affinity or Kiro being scum.
And now to do some HMWK.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 01, 2009, 10:16:36 PM
5 hours left in the day, no way a Nietz lynch was going to happen, no-one was talking. Saw no point in prolonging the day for no reason.
Quote
I'm not really seeing Affinity or Kiro being scum.
Kiro I understand, but why not Affinity? He avoided VgT for D1 and avoided the Serp issue until it became too big to safely ignore. :/
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 01, 2009, 10:24:01 PM
Quote
You mean the post where you attack four people at once, and link back to a previous post which basically says 'Serp was part of this group which I find scummy in general' and doesn't explain why you chose him ahead of everyone else? And given that you apparently found Serp so suspicious, why do you fail to discuss him in the slightest for the rest of the day, other than a single point of 'I'm not sure about his claim'?
What's wrong, exactly? That's very different from your previous point of saying that 'I said nothing on Serp', by the way; this was an additional point to Kilga's case, which I agreed with but did not feel like repeating. Furthermore, why should I be saying things about Serp when the main focus of the day was Suwako? How could I have done so, in your opinion, other than commenting on the roleclaim? Suwako was in that general group. This is rather unreasonable.
Quote
This sounds awfully like additional knowledge. Why are you so certain that Serp wasn't available to comment? He made no comment in thread of having difficulty posting.
Simply innocent until proven guilty. As long as the fair possibility exists that the late hammer was due to circumstance, it is simply not fair to accuse him of that as this has nothing to do with the player himself. Just as scum lies about having something on in real life so as to slip by the radar; you can't differentiate it from the other townie version of this. So no, no additional knowledge, and no certainty, just scumhunting philosophy. I note that this is coming from a person who rambled about different possible roles haphazardly yesterday, does that count as 'additional knowledge'?
And UK didn't ignore the Serp point after that.
Also,
Quote
Affinity, like Sodium, is bad for immediately jumping to the assumption that Serp is scum and needs to be lynched. The reasoning for this is that unless Serp is scum (which I still hold is unlikely), he's the only player who can potentially prevent lylo in the event of a mislynch. If they lynch him today there's no risk of him hitting one of their own tonight and ruining their victory.
What happened to this? Also, why are you immediately clearing everyone early on the bandwagon when scum surely do have enough manpower to bus for cred at this stage in the game? Are you sure you are willing to totally jump ship on your case of Kiro just for this reason? Lastly, this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg105052#msg105052). which is a real classy snub of whatever Kiro had been saying against you, did not telegraph this sudden suspicion against me. Why?
---
@Sodium:
Not liking your suspicions into today, since it seems not to be a summation of all your opinions on, say, me or UK, as can be seen here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg104360#msg104360). What made you think that way? Also, I've noticed that you have never mentioned Kiro in any of your opinions posts except for the first; which might be of some note. Bandwagon performance has been relatively good though.
---
The thing I'm not liking about Kiro is that he spins lots and lots of theories which turn out to not be used for the rest of the game, giving his actions an air of pretentiousness. For example, here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg101109#msg101109) he acknowledges that Serp has an improving aura of town while slamming Suwako (which he previously called obvtown on D2), which conflicts with this D4 post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg103956#msg103956) and subsequent posts where he accuses Serp of not 'truly scumhunting'. These contradictions, along with his D2 views, give the impression of a forced bus, and the fact that he totally gave up on his Rou questioning yesterday (which was well-founded) without mentioning his actions give the impression of wilting crops.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 02, 2009, 06:55:58 AM
What's wrong, exactly? That's very different from your previous point of saying that 'I said nothing on Serp', by the way; this was an additional point to Kilga's case, which I agreed with but did not feel like repeating.
You said 'he's scummy for these things', then just kept him in second place and never talked about him again until the roleclaim. If you thought he was so scummy, why didn't you press him?
Quote
Furthermore, why should I be saying things about Serp when the main focus of the day was Suwako? How could I have done so, in your opinion, other than commenting on the roleclaim?
You're the one who claimed that 'Serp was the case on everyone's lips Day 2 and 3', aren't you? I'm just holding you to your words.
Quote
Simply innocent until proven guilty. As long as the fair possibility exists that the late hammer was due to circumstance, it is simply not fair to accuse him of that as this has nothing to do with the player himself. Just as scum lies about having something on in real life so as to slip by the radar; you can't differentiate it from the other townie version of this.
Surely if Serp had any such activity problems, he would have said so himself rather than waiting for someone else to come up with outs for him.
Quote
And UK didn't ignore the Serp point after that.
The way you put it it sounds awfully like she's being reactionary. Also, considering she didn't move her vote from me the entire day, I still don't see how she 'got' the point other than willing to say that Serp was a likely buddy.
Quote
What happened to this? Also, why are you immediately clearing everyone early on the bandwagon when scum surely do have enough manpower to bus for cred at this stage in the game? Are you sure you are willing to totally jump ship on your case of Kiro just for this reason?
You do realise that that entire line of logic only made sense because I thought Serp was Town, right? It doesn't work as well in reverse. Besides, looking back on D4, while you did call Serp obvscum you held off on voting him until the end of the day. And Kiro, Sodium and K4U were on both scum wagons, either early or at critical points to stop the Suwako lynch D1. One scum lynch might be bussing. Two is suicide.
Quote
Lastly, this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg105052#msg105052). which is a real classy snub of whatever Kiro had been saying against you, did not telegraph this sudden suspicion against me. Why?
Overnight re-read. I looked at you and realised that you were linked pretty closely to Serp on several points, plus you'd been fighting for Suwako's lynch.
K4U needs to post.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 02, 2009, 07:00:06 AM
In a game where Town got distracted by Suwako's behavior and also let Serp and the rest of Scum get away with a Day 3 Suwako mislynch before lynching Serp in Day 4, I am focusing on those aspects to pin down my last 2 suspects. For me, my head is hurting from thinking about who's the scummiest because almost everyone fouled up in one way or another. So an approach that I think is easier for me to handle was to look at those events and work backwards and think about who is the most likely to be Townie first. To start, I am reaffirming that I think the last 2 Scum are Affinity and UK. Thus, the bulk of these points are addressed to K4U, Sodium, and Rou, because it is them that I intend to convince in order to get Town to win this game. Relooking at all the players:
---
K4U: Votes Anthony early, doesn't initially see the VgT case, but does eventually vote VgT picking him over Suwako. Continues on Anthony in Day 2 for what looks to me like consistent reasoning. Votes Serp early Day 3 and stays on in #606. Also agrees to vote Serp early in Day 4 and does. Quite clean so I believe she's Town.
Elphias/Sodium: Elphias votes VgT early in #90 when there's little pressure on VgT so it really does look too early to be a hard Scum bus. Sodium comes in Day 2 and votes Angel Milk in #351, leans Town on Suwako. Also votes Serp early Day 3 and when Sodium addresses Suwako's post in #578, he decides to stay on Serp. Reiterates said point in #584. And votes Serp early in Day 4 and stays on it. I also think he's Town now. Just don't like his comments about how Rou is obvScum, mostly because I think he's wrong and I'm not seeing it as a scummy error. Anyways, see next section.
---
Rou: He looks bad through all of the game and if we could afford to mislynch, he'd definitely be expendable. But he's not, so I searched for things that strike me as something Town would do that Scum can't do. And I found three major instances that indicate he's not likely to be Scum. The first is his Day 1 activity. He makes a big deal about Anthony being 3rd on the wagon and draws attention to himself that way. That's not how Scum would play in a game where they don't know what Town has waiting for them. This is especially true in that he harped on that point repeatedly until being publicly told that it was a discredited scumtell. In essence, it looks like he had no scumbuddies to tell him to shut up about that point because he's not Scum with access to Daytalk. I think everyone still alive actually mentioned this aloud afterwards and there was plenty of time for any scumbuddies to tell him that he was about to say something stupid. In other words, there has been no coordination in reining of Rou's statements. Rou sets himself up as suspicious too early and it makes no sense for a Scum to do that to himself.
The lack of coordination also applies to the second instance which is his Day 4 activity. He defended Serp beginning in #652, but it was in the context of the "potential" LYLO argument. But if Rou were Scum, he would have known Serp was the Scum Vig and unable to save Town. He also had to weigh in the fact that Serp was still likely to have been lynched given the early Day 4 comments. Rou's actions have no semblance of knowing all of the above as the topic is argued for a full page. His argument on defending Serp wasn't even about anything scummy Serp did, but it was concerned that Town would auto-lose and at this point, I thought he was Town who tunnelled in on that single point.
And as a reminder, Scum Rou has no reason to start up a fresh mislynch wagon on Suwako in Day 1. It's just not efficient when VgT had 4 votes on him at the time. He could have stayed on Anthony who would have had 3 votes and remain perfectly competitive to Scum VgT. Scum Rou with his team banking on those votes to come is a pretty risky strategy when there was a mislynch wagon already in place as there was no way they could do it alone. All of the faults that Rou has committed have been well documented, including stuff I stated. But we can't afford to be wrong so in this viewpoint, I'm going to stay with the idea that Rou is a Townie.
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To discuss Affinity: Votes umu in #98 for the case on Rou. Then prods K4U in #173 all of which is a sign of being non committal to the major issues at the time including VgT. Also:
As for, Kitten4u, I would like to see more elaboration on why you don't agree and why you do agree other than just saying stuff. For now, she's to me slightly scummier than the likes of VGameT and Nietz,
This was more of a prod than a case; just didn't want to see her go under the radar. And I have not thrown aside everything else yet.
The above two statements don't really match. Looks like you're just fishing for something. And then you vote Suwako in the same post for contradictions. Rather ironic. And to reiterate on the Day 1 bandwagon stuff, I've said it's highly unlikely for Scum to "start" the Suwako mislynch from scratch, but it's not unreasonable to think they added onto it to make it competitive. Affinity's vote brought it equal to Anthony's wagon and Serp (confirmed Scum) put it to one under VgT.
We're going to take that angle into Day 3. Affinity in #546 votes Rou with willingness to switch to Serp. He makes good points on Serp too. What I think is the problem is that he votes Suwako in #570 replying only to Suwako's points. There's no mention of Rou or Serp while he makes the vote. Shouldn't there have been something because BOTH Rou and Serp are the ones who have voted Suwako before you. Did you even factor in that your top 2 Scum suspects were the ones that started this wagon? And to reiterate wagon balance, this inches Suwako up to 3 and makes it competitive with the 4 votes on Serp. And finally, Rou already asked you some questions for Day 5 like asking where your suspicion on UK went.
To answer your Day 5 concerns about me: My #555 which talks about Suwako is me getting irritated at Suwako and starting to find him suspicious regardless of the Occam's scenario. Saying I preempted Serp to go for Suwako is dumb. Even if I were a hypothetical scumbuddy to him, Serp is his own person and will make the cases he so chooses and can't take it back once it's posted. As for the theories I've made, I make them because I think they're worth considering. Theories can be wrong and I can look scummy for bringing them out so go ahead and call me out on them. For your example, I got fooled by Serp in Day 3, simple as that. My opinion changed in Day 4 after seeing Suwako flip Town and Pesco's role so I don't see my Day 4 post as a conflict, but an updated opinion. You updated your opinion of Serp as well. What I would like to say about my Day 3 switch from Serp to Suwako is that I considered and talked about it a great deal and considered several aspects including that Serp could be messing with me. You did not do the latter which is something others can compare between us. I've already addressed why I think Rou is Townie and that without the luxury of having a mislynch, we have to vote correctly and just looking at who has the most crimes does not mean he will flip Scum.
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Moving onto UK: There's the vote on Anthony and then the re-parking of her vote onto Edible. If you have no secondary suspect, then not contributing to discussion or brushing off Pesco's asking what your opinion on VgT is in #73 is anti-Townie. You also have a weird progression through Day 1: #189: "VgT is better, but lacks action." #197: I "may have to push Suwako a bit" #202: Willing to vote Anthony now. #233 is where you switch to VgT. That looks alright of course.
It's from Day 2 on that I see some major problems with you. You vote Rou first in Day 2. Then in #399, you take the time to reread and stay on Rou. The problem is that you don't seem to make much of an effort to push your case unlike say Kilga with his Serp case. You're passively ok with other lynches like Anthony, Serp, or Angel Milk but your vote never touches any of them so there is some serious apathy and lack of backbone to your suspicions on any of them.
In Day 3, you arrive to the thread late, after Serp made his Vig claim and Suwako was ahead 4-3. Despite all this, you vote Rou in #599, say you can't get behind a Suwako lynch, but would be more enthusiastic about a Serpy lynch. You reaffirm that you don't like the Suwako wagon at all even more strongly in #602, but you don't do a damn thing about it. Suwako is ahead by 1 vote, the day is almost over and you have your vote on a wagon that for all reasonable purposes, is not going anywhere. If you're so convinced about Suwako being the wrong lynch, then vote Serp so that it ties the wagons up and potentially causes the Suwako wagon to fail. Once again, severe apathy and you don't change your vote to a dominant wagon before the Day ends. Very very bad and it can be interpreted as complicitly letting the mislynch occur. You can't take any credit for being right about Suwako because you didn't make any actual effort to save him or dissuade those who were voting Suwako.
And finally, you vote Rou in Day 4 again and never actually touch Serp. You say lynch one today, lynch the other tomorrow so haphazardly which is dangerous to state in LYLO and I know Town UK wouldn't be so careless to say it like that. How I think you are worse than Sodium in this regard is that he voted for Serp in Day 3 and Day 4; you never did. Given that I also think Rou is Townie now, your tunneling on him throughout the game is me seeing an extended attempt to mislynch him. But you don't do much in actually pushing for this lynch which strikes me as bad. So I peg you as Scum as well.
---
I find both UK and Affinity compelling targets, but here's an interesting thing we can do based off Nietz' tracker results. If Town agrees UK is scummy enough to be lynched today and she flips Scum voteblocker, then Affinity is still a valid target for Day 6. If she flips Scum Goon, then Affinity is almost certainly a Townie as he can't be a voteblocker. And I would have to reevaluate everyone again. Furthermore, if UK flips any Scum, then that should convince everyone else that Rou is almost certainly innocent. UK tunnelled on Rou for so long this game that it's unreasonable to think she would do that to a scumbuddy from mid Day 1 to now. The above is just a suggestion, but I am ok with either lynch and will vote either equally. Awaiting comments.
Cut by Roukan: Nothing to really comment on there.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 02, 2009, 08:41:46 AM
@Rou:
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You're the one who claimed that 'Serp was the case on everyone's lips Day 2 and 3', aren't you? I'm just holding you to your words.
Really? Then what I meant by 'on everyone lips' is that there were two major bandwagons on D3; Suwako, and Serp. Serp would have been considered on D3, I don't see how that contributes to my case.
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urely if Serp had any such activity problems, he would have said so himself rather than waiting for someone else to come up with outs for him.
Wasn't there numerous indications that he was running Dwarf Fortress?
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The way you put it it sounds awfully like she's being reactionary. Also, considering she didn't move her vote from me the entire day, I still don't see how she 'got' the point other than willing to say that Serp was a likely buddy
Then why aren't you voting yourself? He gave Serp as a secondary lynch, which is far more than you can say.
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You said 'he's scummy for these things', then just kept him in second place and never talked about him again until the roleclaim. If you thought he was so scummy, why didn't you press him?
Simply because I thought Suwako was scummier and was a better lynch for D3. Let us note that one of my main points against Serp, that he voted for Tenshi without any real push for the Suwako lynch, applied to Suwako as well, but even worse, since later on during D3 Serp gave a reasoned case against Suwako while Suwako did not do anything but antagonize the town and refuse my request for him to clarify his case. Roukanken also picked himself up, which made my point that he was useless rather weak. That was a good move, and thus I didn't pay him any more mind after the day until Suwako gave answers.
As for Kiro's bandwagon point, that was fair, but to me, it doesn't matter who gives the case, as long as it is a good one, which I thought it was given Suwako's method of play. In fact, it is the best thing you can ever do if you are called scummy, to come up with a good case. Again, the suspicion was telegraphed throughout D2. Furthermore, even if they did not go with the bandwagon, I would have started it anyway, the things going the way they were. Also, see this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg99061#msg99061).
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Besides, looking back on D4, while you did call Serp obvscum you held off on voting him until the end of the day. And Kiro, Sodium and K4U were on both scum wagons, either early or at critical points to stop the Suwako lynch D1. One scum lynch might be bussing. Two is suicide.
Only so many people can vote him below the L-1 limit, which has to be ensured in order to prevent a scum quicklynch and to preserve the day. Don't see why I should be implicated for not casting my vote first. On the other hand, your actions are far more retarded; voting a person you didn't even think was scummy.
On the bussing point, are you sure? Again, blind application of theory. It was psuedo-LyLo, Serp was pretty much going to be the prime lynch for that day; it would make sense for scum to go on the bandwagon early to gain cred. We notice that at least one person was on the VGameT bandwagon yesterday (probably), so why can't that same person go on the Serp wagon? Selective scumhunting, to the utmost degree.
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@Kiro:
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The above two statements don't really match. Looks like you're just fishing for something.
Explain the contradiction. One is before her clarification. One was after. Nothing on the level of Suwako and Rou, and the relation you made is extremely forced.
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Saying I preempted Serp to go for Suwako is dumb.
It's really no different from me saying that your case is dumb, really. Not saying that it is, but this defense is not satisfactory. Possibility is still there. While I can understand that Serp did what he did, the fact that you patted his back in that post and that you went for Serp as well which was at odds with your position on D2 is worse than mine which telegraphed that suspicion throughout D2 and gives yours the feel of an ad-hoc plan.
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You did not do the latter which is something others can compare between us.
As a defense, what I would say about myself is that I had a constant suspicion on Suwako through D2 as opposed to your (and Rou's) abrupt switch in post 555, which is something.
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You updated your opinion of Serp as well.
Not once have I said that Serp's actions redeemed him for his D1 and D2 actions as pointed out by Kilga and me. Those things were just there and unquestionable, so I don't see how I could have pressed him, so there's no contradiction with my views here. I simply felt that Suwako was more scummy.
If Suwako had flipped scum, I would definitely have revised my opinion, but for all intents and purposes Serp was simply next in line on my list on D3 (closely with Rou, but he contributed). I would like to say that suddenly saying that Serp's reasoning was bad on D4 has absolutely nothing to do with the flips presented on N3, causing the contradiction to surface. Furthermore you partook in it, and while yes, the possibility exists for it being a townie mistake as always, so is the big possibility for it being a scum action and faked, which is what I think now. These two switches, that from Serp to Suwako and Suwako to Serp, give evidence.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 02, 2009, 09:16:17 AM
Okay, it's like 3 AM, I'm half asleep, but I wanted to post before I went to bed. Sorry if this is somewhat garbled. So, I wanted to reread (more like skim) the game because Rou was confusing me. I could see the reason town!Rou would defend Serp yesterday, but I could also why scum would do that so I considered it null. However, I think it's obvious that there's 4 scum. We've got two, there's two left. I cannot find someone else to pair Rou with for the life of me.
Kiro + Sodium: Largely based on the fact that I think they're both town right now. Being that early on the VgT wagon makes both of them look good. Sodium also stuck with the Serp wagon D3 and Kiro has just been generally awesome that I doubt either of them are scum. Naturally, Rou cannot be scum buddies with town.
UK + Affinity: Both attacked Rou a lot. Enough that I doubt it was a bus.
There's either some serious bussing going on here or Rou is town. So, for those that still think Rou is scum, who is his buddy?
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I find Kiro's case very compelling. I'll look at UK and Affinity again tomorrow when I'm not about ready to pass out.
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I'm out of juice. I'm going to look more closely at UK and Affinity tomorrow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 02, 2009, 10:26:10 AM
Really? Then what I meant by 'on everyone lips' is that there were two major bandwagons on D3; Suwako, and Serp. Serp would have been considered on D3, I don't see how that contributes to my case.
Besides the fact that you gave little to no contribution on the Serp case? If it's as big as you say it is, why do you only say 'he's scummy and my second place' and never touch him afterward?
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Wasn't there numerous indications that he was running Dwarf Fortress?
I didn't know this, and assuming that I'm aware of every game everyone is running is asking a lot. I don't recall him referring to the running of said game being a problem anywhere in the topic.
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Then why aren't you voting yourself? He gave Serp as a secondary lynch, which is far more than you can say.
Firstly I assume you meant 'she' here. >_> Secondly, I don't see having someone listed as a 'second lynch' as very valid. You have one vote, so there's one case that you're willing to put your money on. That is the one important case you can be judged for ahead of the rest - you can talk about other cases, but if you don't vote you aren't putting your money where your mouth is. Plus, given that despite it being obvious near the end of the day that the Rou lynch wasn't happening, why didn't she switch to Serp?
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Simply because I thought Suwako was scummier and was a better lynch for D3. Let us note that one of my main points against Serp, that he voted for Tenshi without any real push for the Suwako lynch, applied to Suwako as well, but even worse, since later on during D3 Serp gave a reasoned case against Suwako while Suwako did not do anything but antagonize the town and refuse my request for him to clarify his case. Roukanken also picked himself up, which made my point that he was useless rather weak. That was a good move, and thus I didn't pay him any more mind after the day until Suwako gave answers.
This reads as tunneling on Suwako, to be honest. Serp giving one good case doesn't seem like enough to make you want to disregard the previous points you had on him.
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As for Kiro's bandwagon point, that was fair, but to me, it doesn't matter who gives the case, as long as it is a good one, which I thought it was given Suwako's method of play. In fact, it is the best thing you can ever do if you are called scummy, to come up with a good case. Again, the suspicion was telegraphed throughout D2. Furthermore, even if they did not go with the bandwagon, I would have started it anyway, the things going the way they were. Also, see this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg99061#msg99061).
You say this like it's impossible for scum to come up with a 'good' case. You say yourself the Suwako case was valid, but she flipped Town.
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Only so many people can vote him below the L-1 limit, which has to be ensured in order to prevent a scum quicklynch and to preserve the day. Don't see why I should be implicated for not casting my vote first. On the other hand, your actions are far more retarded; voting a person you didn't even think was scummy.
Misrep. I thought Nietz had to be scum to maintain power balance since the odds of Town having a doc/tracker/vig combo were tiny. The only reason he'd received a clear up until then was his tracker claim, but as Doc came out problems emerged with the apparent setup.
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On the bussing point, are you sure? Again, blind application of theory. It was psuedo-LyLo, Serp was pretty much going to be the prime lynch for that day; it would make sense for scum to go on the bandwagon early to gain cred. We notice that at least one person was on the VGameT bandwagon yesterday (probably), so why can't that same person go on the Serp wagon? Selective scumhunting, to the utmost degree.
I love how you say 'probably' here when the only possible scumpair that would entail from the alternative is Affinity/Rou. And as much as I may regret using this as a defense, there's the fact that I myself was a relatively good choice of suspect during D3 and 4. UK has been going for me for both of those days, thus missing the actual important wagons, and you started on me D3 before tunneling Suwako.
Speaking of which, you've been evasive on the UK point. I want to get a direct opinion since you really haven't mentioned her anywhere - do you think UK is scummy? Secondly, if you're still convinced in your Kiro case, who is likely to be his buddy?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 02, 2009, 11:37:19 AM
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I didn't know this, and assuming that I'm aware of every game everyone is running is asking a lot. I don't recall him referring to the running of said game being a problem anywhere in the topic.
Here is one (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg97107#msg97107).
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Firstly I assume you meant 'she' here. >_> Secondly, I don't see having someone listed as a 'second lynch' as very valid. You have one vote, so there's one case that you're willing to put your money on. That is the one important case you can be judged for ahead of the rest - you can talk about other cases, but if you don't vote you aren't putting your money where your mouth is. Plus, given that despite it being obvious near the end of the day that the Rou lynch wasn't happening, why didn't she switch to Serp?
Whoops at first point, sorry. Second one while fair, is bad in this context because obviously you can find more than one person scummy. Her money was on you, and she thought that you were scummier than Serp, so be it. My gripe was that she did not consider, and after she did consider it was alright, provided that there was a very very good reason to vote you at that time and now(which was you spewing bad logic everywhere). Reasons why she didn't vote for Serp was in my last post; the point which you defended your self against without considering what I said against myself.
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his reads as tunneling on Suwako, to be honest. Serp giving one good case doesn't seem like enough to make you want to disregard the previous points you had on him.
Read my post. My points were static and there and certain. Nothing I could do to press him.
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You say this like it's impossible for scum to come up with a 'good' case. You say yourself the Suwako case was valid, but she flipped Town.
Why, straw-man and utter desperation. Why are you using points against me which could be equally applied against you? Cases may be valid, but validity does not imply certainty. Furthermore, while scum can definitely give good cases, those who don't are, in my view, more likely to be scum because they are less original and shows more willingness to slip by.
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Misrep. I thought Nietz had to be scum to maintain power balance since the odds of Town having a doc/tracker/vig combo were tiny. The only reason he'd received a clear up until then was his tracker claim, but as Doc came out problems emerged with the apparent setup.
Hammer vote. No misrep, facts are there in the mod's votecount. Also, your quote solves the reason why I did not vote for Serp late, I am not to be blamed for being a victim of circumstance.
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And as much as I may regret using this as a defense, there's the fact that I myself was a relatively good choice of suspect during D3 and 4. UK has been going for me for both of those days, thus missing the actual important wagons, and you started on me D3 before tunneling Suwako.
Oh you will. This was Anthony's defense; "I'm so easy to mislynch therefore scum MUST have aimed to push me!" Like a conspiracy theorist fighting for Flat Earth, really. You are not following up on the attack either and not getting the main points of my quotes. It's suddenly switching to your defense primarily.
The evasiveness on UK is fair. After a reread, I have to say, that yes, UK is scummy, for the reasons Kiro has already raised. Things like "Kiro's post seems good" and saying "either lynch is fine" on D4 was rather bad. There were also little to none original opinions, except the one on you on D2, founded on good reasons, just rather skimpy comments on other people which aren't quite informative. I have not decided Kiro as the sure-lynch choice today, and I am willing to see his defense. Same for UK. And Sodium is, in my opinion, a possible scumbuddy given the 'confirmed town' feel I am getting from him on Kiro and omission from opinion lists.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 02, 2009, 12:48:54 PM
Here is one (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg97107#msg97107).
Fair, but there's no sign of anything along those lines in D1, which is when he held off to hammer VgT.
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Second one while fair, is bad in this context because obviously you can find more than one person scummy. Her money was on you, and she thought that you were scummier than Serp, so be it. My gripe was that she did not consider, and after she did consider it was alright, provided that there was a very very good reason to vote you at that time and now(which was you spewing bad logic everywhere). Reasons why she didn't vote for Serp was in my last post; the point which you defended your self against without considering what I said against myself.
But UK claims that she's wanted Serp lynched for days (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg105322#msg105322) behind me, and other lynches have just been getting in the way. Also note that this is in direct contradiction to the 'I'm fine with both lynches' sentiment she expressed here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg105322#msg105322).
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Read my post. My points were static and there and certain. Nothing I could do to press him.
I have static and certain points against you - namely, that you were against VgT and for Suwako, and linked yourself to Serp pretty clearly with the RL defense - but I'm still able to press you.
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Why are you using points against me which could be equally applied against you? Cases may be valid, but validity does not imply certainty. Furthermore, while scum can definitely give good cases, those who don't are, in my view, more likely to be scum because they are less original and shows more willingness to slip by.
This point is fair, but the fact remains that you were on every wrong lynch up until now, and I'm still not impressed by your link to Serp. I've made mistakes this round. We all have. All that I can do is pick myself up and keep on trying.
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Hammer vote. No misrep, facts are there in the mod's votecount. Also, your quote solves the reason why I did not vote for Serp late, I am not to be blamed for being a victim of circumstance.
I don't deny that being the hammer is a bad thing, but that was because I was more convinced by the Nietz lynch anyway. The alternative was a No Lynch which would've led to Serp getting lynched anyway the next day when his vig shot disappeared, except with one extra dead Townie. And how does this quote clear you exactly?
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Oh you will. This was Anthony's defense; "I'm so easy to mislynch therefore scum MUST have aimed to push me!" Like a conspiracy theorist fighting for Flat Earth, really. You are not following up on the attack either and not getting the main points of my quotes. It's suddenly switching to your defense primarily.
No, this is an attack. I know I'm Town, and I know Serp was scum. Choosing a scum wagon over a Town wagon is a sign of town play.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 02, 2009, 01:58:54 PM
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Fair, but there's no sign of anything along those lines in D1, which is when he held off to hammer VgT.
The topic was started some time ago, before D1.
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But UK claims that she's wanted Serp lynched for days behind me, and other lynches have just been getting in the way.
Why, this part at least is fair. Where's the kicker? As I said, my reason for ignoring her then was because she ignored the case on Serp for D4 at least. I agree with your points.
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I have static and certain points against you - namely, that you were against VgT and for Suwako, and linked yourself to Serp pretty clearly with the RL defense - but I'm still able to press you.
Wrong, they are far from static and certain. The link was neither close nor definite, and you're simply going on about your case without considering my defense while even considering it fair, leading to the defense! The bandwagons, which yourself are guilty of, are true, static, and that's why I did not argue with you on my part in those wagons. What I'm arguing with you about is my reasons for being on those wagons on the first place, the significance of such stuff, raising the telegraph, which is more than you can say about your sudden switch to Suwako and stuff. Again, hypocrisy, why aren't you voting yourself in that case?
Comparing to my case on Serp, these are not present. Things were clear cut, he put his vote on Suwako and Tenshi without any new analysis on any cases or bandwagon flips, which cannot be explained away by his content. Kilga's argument was also well-sorted out by the end of D2, rendering my reasons to press non-existent.
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I don't deny that being the hammer is a bad thing, but that was because I was more convinced by the Nietz lynch anyway. The alternative was a No Lynch which would've led to Serp getting lynched anyway the next day when his vig shot disappeared, except with one extra dead Townie. And how does this quote clear you exactly?
Wrong. Kiro has himself volunteered to hammer, which renders you no reason to do so.
I'm not saying that it clears me at all, I'm just saying that you can't find me townie or scummy based on that information. Last 3 votes came in quick succession. Kitten voted, you cleared her. I voted only when I came back on, because I voted 'late' you use that against me. This is not fair.
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All that I can do is pick myself up and keep on trying.
But you must accept the points levied against you as well. And that's a lot to bear.
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No, this is an attack. I know I'm Town, and I know Serp was scum. Choosing a scum wagon over a Town wagon is a sign of town play.
So what? People are... scummy because they vote for you (a town wagon) Are you sure about that, despite all your weak play so far?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 02, 2009, 02:10:08 PM
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And as a reminder, Scum Rou has no reason to start up a fresh mislynch wagon on Suwako in Day 1. It's just not efficient when VgT had 4 votes on him at the time. He could have stayed on Anthony who would have had 3 votes and remain perfectly competitive to Scum VgT. Scum Rou with his team banking on those votes to come is a pretty risky strategy when there was a mislynch wagon already in place as there was no way they could do it alone. All of the faults that Rou has committed have been well documented, including stuff I stated. But we can't afford to be wrong so in this viewpoint, I'm going to stay with the idea that Rou is a Townie.
My only problem with this logic is that he chainsaw'd for VgT REALLY strongly. Throughout my entire attack on him Rou was needling me for being against him.
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It's from Day 2 on that I see some major problems with you. You vote Rou first in Day 2. Then in #399, you take the time to reread and stay on Rou. The problem is that you don't seem to make much of an effort to push your case unlike say Kilga with his Serp case. You're passively ok with other lynches like Anthony, Serp, or Angel Milk but your vote never touches any of them so there is some serious apathy and lack of backbone to your suspicions on any of them.
Please show me where I've strongly pushed a case in the past? Well, any stronger than I pushed Rou? Honestly, I thought I was rather vehement on him.
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In Day 3, you arrive to the thread late, after Serp made his Vig claim and Suwako was ahead 4-3. Despite all this, you vote Rou in #599, say you can't get behind a Suwako lynch, but would be more enthusiastic about a Serpy lynch.
I would be more enthusiastic, but what am I supposed to do with a claimed vig? I proposed what I preferred done about him. Rou was scummier.
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You reaffirm that you don't like the Suwako wagon at all even more strongly in #602, but you don't do a damn thing about it. Suwako is ahead by 1 vote, the day is almost over and you have your vote on a wagon that for all reasonable purposes, is not going anywhere.
so you are telling me that I'm supposed to vote for the person who's less town? Rather, Serpy was scummy, but he also had a claim. In terms of value I should have voted Suwako. In terms of towniness I should have voted Serpy. Honestly, we all should have lynched Rou that day. I do not see this argument as valid.
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If you're so convinced about Suwako being the wrong lynch, then vote Serp so that it ties the wagons up and potentially causes the Suwako wagon to fail.
At the expense of an assumed PR?
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You can't take any credit for being right about Suwako because you didn't make any actual effort to save him or dissuade those who were voting Suwako.
Explain how I should have dissuaded them. I had my facts on the table. They damn well knew that Suwa was a rival wagon to a scum as well as being attacked quite early on by VgT, as in before VgT was a case. Please, explain to me what further I could have done? Oh, and try to leave "lynching a claimed PR" out of your reasoning this time, kthx.
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And finally, you vote Rou in Day 4 again and never actually touch Serp. You say lynch one today, lynch the other tomorrow so haphazardly which is dangerous to state in LYLO and I know Town UK wouldn't be so careless to say it like that.
I can't really agree or disagree with this statement. If I'm pissed off enough at a game I may just be so careless. I will grant that by my logic I should have voted Serp. That was a mistake on my part, but either way, you seem to be letting off people for worse mistakes so...yeah ^-^
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How I think you are worse than Sodium in this regard is that he voted for Serp in Day 3 and Day 4; you never did. Given that I also think Rou is Townie now, your tunneling on him throughout the game is me seeing an extended attempt to mislynch him. But you don't do much in actually pushing for this lynch which strikes me as bad.
Ok then! So...let's see...because I was wrong on Serp, and because you think Rou is townie, with what appears to be rather weak evidence, you think I'm trying to mislynch him...but since I didn't push hard enough it's worse? I should be pushing a mislynch...harder to seem more townie?
I'm not sure I understand...
Either way, there are my counters. I don't think your case is nearly as strong as you think.
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UK + Affinity: Both attacked Rou a lot. Enough that I doubt it was a bus.
There's either some serious bussing going on here or Rou is town. So, for those that still think Rou is scum, who is his buddy?
Good question. At this juncture, I'd have to conclude either you or Kiro. Leaning Kiro right now but I'd have to read his history as well.
And no, I'm not going to play with your restrictions. Anyone is open game to me. I don't see anyone particularly townie in this situation.
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I find Kiro's case very compelling. I'll look at UK and Affinity again tomorrow when I'm not about ready to pass out.
I find you didn't look at it very closely. But that's excusable by tiredness.
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Plus, given that despite it being obvious near the end of the day that the Rou lynch wasn't happening, why didn't she switch to Serp?
Was this D3 or D4? D3 would be...uh...maybe the claim? D4 would be I wasn't around to switch IIRC.
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The evasiveness on UK is fair. After a reread, I have to say, that yes, UK is scummy, for the reasons Kiro has already raised.
Really? Did you even read his case ^-^?
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But UK claims that she's wanted Serp lynched for days behind me, and other lynches have just been getting in the way. Also note that this is in direct contradiction to the 'I'm fine with both lynches' sentiment she expressed here.
Hmm...decent. The witch side resigns that point.
Overall I think the allegations against me are mildly overstated.
Yes, I know, Affinity reread today. When I'm less sick. Hopefully it's just a season change thing prolonging my allergies to the morning.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 02, 2009, 02:18:48 PM
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The topic was started some time ago, before D1.
But he didn't claim it was a problem at the time, even saying he'd be around at deadline to hammer if necessary.
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What I'm arguing with you about is my reasons for being on those wagons on the first place, the significance of such stuff, raising the telegraph, which is more than you can say about your sudden switch to Suwako and stuff. Again, hypocrisy, why aren't you voting yourself in that case?
Explain to me what the alternative is, then - letting a scummy action go by unnoticed because I manage to make the same mistake? I'll notice on this count that your suspicion of me has faded into the distance - another case of this 'hypocrisy'?
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Kitten voted, you cleared her.
That was for her position on the D3 wagon, not D4.
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But you must accept the points levied against you as well. And that's a lot to bear.
I built the cross, I may as well carry it.
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So what? People are... scummy because they vote for you (a town wagon) Are you sure about that, despite all your weak play so far?
My point is that unless scum have a good reason to bus or the wagons are notably equal in most regards, they're going to pick the Town wagon ahead of the scum wagon.
I'll leave off with one point on UK's wall that stands out to me, and leave the rest for Kiro to answer. I've had enough of this game for now, so I'll probably post again when I get home. >_>
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And no, I'm not going to play with your restrictions. Anyone is open game to me. I don't see anyone particularly townie in this situation.
Really? The people who were present early on both scum lynches don't come across as Townie at all? To say that everyone is suspicious is paranoid going on useless.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 02, 2009, 02:28:52 PM
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Really? The people who were present early on both scum lynches don't come across as Townie at all? To say that everyone is suspicious is paranoid going on useless.
I was a swing vote on the VgT lynch. That doesn't seem to matter much. Who's to say it wasn't bussing, ESPECIALLY in Serp's case? Serp was an obvious lynch for several days running. Honestly, thinking on it, the Suwa lynch boggles the mind. But anyway, at this point we are low enough so that everyone has screwed up somehow, and everyone is at some level suspicious.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 02, 2009, 02:40:10 PM
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But he didn't claim it was a problem at the time, even saying he'd be around at deadline to hammer if necessary.
Might not have been around between the time of his last post and the deadline due to other things. That's the entire point.
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Explain to me what the alternative is, then - letting a scummy action go by unnoticed because I manage to make the same mistake? I'll notice on this count that your suspicion of me has faded into the distance - another case of this 'hypocrisy'?
No, not really. Because you made those mistakes yourself, and you supposedly know yourself to be town, you should understand why these mistakes arise and understand why they do so. Say how the reasoning behind those mistakes are different from yours, that's an additional step you have to take to be any convincing.
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That was for her position on the D3 wagon, not D4
Fair.
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My point is that unless scum have a good reason to bus or the wagons are notably equal in most regards, they're going to pick the Town wagon ahead of the scum wagon.
So do townies against bad townies. Unless you can differentiate between the two, what you say means absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 02, 2009, 06:32:49 PM
Affinity: The contradiction is that in the first quote, you say K4U is scummier than others. The second quote states that you were mostly prodding K4U. It's an observation from early game that I don't think was noted elsewhere. Possibly viewed as fishing for a case.
Constant suspicion of a person is an alright trend, but if it's wrong, it's wrong. Being on it longer doesn't make you Townie, example being Serp of course. Switching to it suddenly doesn't make you Scum either, example being Pesco. So we can't definitively say you look more or less Townie than me in comparison there. If you want to pursue this point, you argue for us specifically which parts of my flip flop look like they have scummy intent. I still think your not considering that Serp and Rou switched to Suwako first in #570 makes your switch more suspicious. You pursued Suwako all game but when you voted him, three major things happened. Serp voted him, Rou voted him, and he posted his #569. Was #569 really the only trigger to finally get your vote onto him as it may be suggested in your #570? That's my impression of your vote being "sudden."
---
UK: Rou defending VgT just looks like a Townie error to me now. Convince me which specific points are far more likely to have Scum intent over simply being Townie tunnelling error which is how I see it. You were vehement on Rou, but you got almost nobody else to vote Rou alongside you. The only vote support that I can recall was Affinity. In other words, you don't argue that strongly to the rest of Town that Rou was a top priority over anybody else in the game.
I thought this stood out as anti-Townie in Day 3 when you came in late and still voted Rou. We don't get the lynches we want a lot of the times so we have to make the effort to salvage what we can get. In this critical juncture in Day 3, you did NOTHING. No dissuading the Suwako case, no arguing for the Rou case to be stronger than either Serp or Suwako, no voting the Serp wagon to potentially derail the Suwako wagon and no further questioning in the Day. There is no Townieness whatsoever in that sequence. Your Rou vote at that time was a throwaway and with Town making the wrong choice that Day, the throwaway looks really suspicious. The underlined is what you should've done, but I also see you giving up on the Rou lynch from happening DURING your Rou vote in #599... And you didn't push it enough in #602 or #605.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 02, 2009, 08:31:14 PM
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The contradiction is that in the first quote, you say K4U is scummier than others. The second quote states that you were mostly prodding K4U. It's an observation from early game that I don't think was noted elsewhere. Possibly viewed as fishing for a case.
Not really. She was scummier before she explained, after that she was not. At that moment in time content given by normal people were limited; making replies to prods more significant, thus I would say that her content became satisfactory of the reply. Because again, the reason for it was the lack of explanation and her way of pushing pencils.
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Constant suspicion of a person is an alright trend, but if it's wrong, it's wrong.
This is fair, however, constant suspicion of a townie person tends to look better than a sudden switch in the span of a day and is to me, the lesser of the two evils (since you were wrong too). It looks far more genuine to pursue a case you always had in comparison to doing a 180 on him, which can be seen as opportunistic; even though you had good reasons, the reasons were easy to find. This is combined with your subsequent 180 on Serp. Being consistently wrong is better than being wrong abruptly, especially since I was the first one to pump out reasons on Suwako.
And on 569, yes as it was his first post on D3 and the defense to my case on him as suggested by 555. It was a giant OMGUS, enough to send my opinions of him over th top. I would like to point out that my other two suspects, Serp and Rou, suddenly did something useful with their votes, which helped push themselves down my list to reveal Suwako as the top, who embarked on a giant MotK hatefest when he has been just as wrong or more so than us. Thus it's not sudden, as he actually responded to the my points in 555 in a bad way.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 02, 2009, 09:44:16 PM
Quote from: Kiro
Just don't like his comments about how Rou is obvScum, mostly because I think he's wrong and I'm not seeing it as a scummy error
I'm assuming you mean townie error. =V --- Kiro: Maybe Rou was trying to save VGT, and then once he realized that CHAINSAWING wouldn't lead anywhere, he decided to try and kick up a new case in Suwako? That or he just went on to vote Suwako for an unrelated reason, but you get my point, right? Chainsawing is not townie.
Affinity: Why do I have to say why I think someone is town? Well, anyways: I think that Kiro is town because while he has done some scummy things(I'd be surprised if someone didn't), I think that everything else he's done eclipses those errors, and he's pretty much been scumhunting the whole game.
Rou: The main thing was ON LYLO. Purposely hammering someone you think is town on LYLO is stupid. Hell, you attacked Zak a few games back for doing that on that game before that game a few games back.
Oh, and I thought it seemed like scum giving up on defending their buddy, and then hammering as an attempt of getting rid of suspicion.
I think Affinity is town because...well, read what I wrote for Kiro, although not as extremely townie. I don't see why I should view him below Kitten4U who has posted little content for a long time, and you, who has defended BOTH flipped scum. Or UK, who hasn't done much outside of tunneling you.
UK: Why does it seem like your purposely trying to avoid re-reading Affinity? It seems your sick, but you've been able to make quote fences, and such.
Kitten4U: You give: Scumpair theory based on two people who are "too townie" to you Scumpair theory based on two people who wanted Rou dead for a while. What. I mean, you did say you gave the post when you were tired, but... =V You need to deliver some more content. --- To Everyone: Sorry, I had HMWK to do. That's why my first post was short and stuff. =V I still think Rou is still scum in front of me, for reasons stated.
Just a question, but what would be the advantages and disadvantages of getting a no lynch? I'd prefer a lynch, but a no lynch could be a possible action if we can't come to a majority or something.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 02, 2009, 11:31:03 PM
But anyway, at this point we are low enough so that everyone has screwed up somehow, and everyone is at some level suspicious.
My point is that being paranoid of everyone doesn't help Town at all. To illustrate the point, there are 15 possible scumpairs out there right now. There have to be SOME people who you're willing to say are probably not scum at this point, surely.
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Might not have been around between the time of his last post and the deadline due to other things. That's the entire point.
After saying not much all day, Serp shows up and says 'I intend to hammer'. Seemed too coincidential, and you were quick to assume the best of him.
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No, not really. Because you made those mistakes yourself, and you supposedly know yourself to be town, you should understand why these mistakes arise and understand why they do so. Say how the reasoning behind those mistakes are different from yours, that's an additional step you have to take to be any convincing.
Alright then. - Starting the Suwako wagon and jumping onto it are two different things. I did the former, you did the latter. The former, as people have pointed out, isn't as scummy because scum don't want to start a lynch from scratch when other targets are available (e.g. Anthony). - I'll concede that I agreed with you on D3. - I defended Serp based on what I thought was mod confirmation. You defended him based on a potential RL scenario which Serp made no reference to himself at the time. It irritated me how you jumped to his rescue over a point which you yourself couldn't be so sure of.
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Maybe Rou was trying to save VGT, and then once he realized that CHAINSAWING wouldn't lead anywhere, he decided to try and kick up a new case in Suwako? That or he just went on to vote Suwako for an unrelated reason, but you get my point, right? Chainsawing is not townie.
This feels horribly like grasping. 'Maybe because the scummier move doesn't work, he decided to go for the less scummy move!'
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I think Affinity is town because...well, read what I wrote for Kiro, although not as extremely townie.
Kiro was present on the VgT lynch and was pressing Serp D3. Affinity wasn't. How can you compare these?
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Just a question, but what would be the advantages and disadvantages of getting a no lynch? I'd prefer a lynch, but a no lynch could be a possible action if we can't come to a majority or something.
Disadvantages: Someone who we're relatively confident is Town gets lynched. We need fewer votes to lynch, hence scum can quickwagon easier. Advantages: Nothing, really.
Sodium is starting to irk me a little with his tunneling on me. Who are you saying my buddy is, and why? You accuse UK as well, but given she's been voting me since D2 I find it sort of hard to see why anyone would consider us buddies, especially since VgT and Serp were already in the open.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 02, 2009, 11:35:23 PM
Affinity: That's your interpretation, but I put those statements in quote boxes for direct comparison. Also, "being consistently wrong is better than being wrong abruptly?" This is not a hard set rule as I pointed out with Serp and Pesco. Therefore, you can't even say it's a trend this game. Once again, illustrate to me specific statements I made in my abrupt changes (hopefully in context of the full quote) that were highly likely to be of scummy intent.
As for Suwako, technically, you OMGUSed Suwako because Suwako fakevoted you first (due to his vote restriction) before you voted him. And Suwako's opinions of what he thinks of MotK Mafia players has no bearing on his scumminess no matter how much it personally antagonized you. And if your other two suspects were doing something useful with their votes, you didn't publicly mention whether you thought these votes should factor for or against the case on Suwako in #570.
---
Sodium: I already mentioned that Scum Rou would be more disadvantaged to start a case on Suwako rather than just stay on his case with Anthony. Observe before and after:
So with the flips of the above people considered, I see Rou's pushing for the Suwako wagon as Townie tunneling. It is not strategic at all for Scum Rou to start the Suwako route because they had more numbers to make up and the VgT wagon still won out on Day 1 putting Scum at an early disadvantage. Scum Rou would not even be certain he could get his own scumbuddies to vote for Suwako. It's possible they'd think it was too risky and just disagree with it in Daytalk. Scum could have potentially gotten the Anthony mislynch Day 1 and a Tenshi mislynch Day 2 before VgT ever died. Which is also why I think Affinity is more suspicious than Rou because of the Affinity + Scum Serp votes following Rou:
Also, Rou may have hammered Serp, but he's not taking any credit for doing so. He knows full well he was wrong about Serp. With 5 hours left, Scum Serp either wasn't going to show up again or he'd say something in the end to hopefully confuse Town in the very last minute and perhaps shake off the lynch. I read Rou's reason to hammer as null.
---
Not really up for a No Lynch. From what I'm gathering, there is no one person who looks truly Townie to everyone. So what Scum would do is manipulate the Night Kill to try to secure the right voters to cause a mislynch on Day 6. Town would also start WIFOMing itself on their cases based on who died and we lose one person's input to discussion. And Scum can do a quicklynch in an odd player LYLO which is easy to coordinate with Daytalk. In this game, eliminating a player probably won't make things clearer; it'll make it more complicated instead.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 03, 2009, 12:42:18 AM
It's really really hard to defend in such a way that what I say is agreeable to everyone. I feel that I'm getting bogged down explaining the same things all over again.
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Starting the Suwako wagon and jumping onto it are two different things. I did the former, you did the latter. The former, as people have pointed out, isn't as scummy because scum don't want to start a lynch from scratch when other targets are available (e.g. Anthony).
This is okay, but you were 2nd and thus you jumped yourself in a way; with minimal reasoning, actually. Good and fair, but again, lots of people 'jumped' on the wagon. I came up with most of the points against him first, moreover, and was consistently suspicious of Suwako.
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I defended Serp based on what I thought was mod confirmation. You defended him based on a potential RL scenario which Serp made no reference to himself at the time. It irritated me how you jumped to his rescue over a point which you yourself couldn't be so sure of.
No. I did not defend Serp at all this game in such a way that prevents me from voting him. I still agreed that his gambits were weird and such and that the flips were detrimental towards him, and I did not jump to his rescue. My entire defense of this point can be summed as: "You don't charge a murderer for grand larceny", which was what I was trying to point out. And it's not as if you were very sure of the 'mod confirmation' either.
---
@Kiro:
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That's your interpretation, but I put those statements in quote boxes for direct comparison.
You asked me for mine; so uhh, you didn't need to say the above. You did not even consider the reasons for which I voted K4U, after all, nor the situation then, so mine is more trustworthy.
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Also, "being consistently wrong is better than being wrong abruptly?" This is not a hard set rule as I pointed out with Serp and Pesco.
There are no hard set rules in Mafia. This is the only thing I can say with certainty in this game. Yes, you have a counterexample, but leaf through the entire corpus of Mafia games and you'll find that the opposite is true as well at times. Scumhunting in Mafia is a game of probability, and it is up to both scum and town to evade those probabilities. This particular game has little to do with this scumhunting philosophy, since I believe that there are more cases of abrupt changes pointing to scum. This is because abrupt switches make unclear your thought processes.
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Once again, illustrate to me specific statements I made in my abrupt changes (hopefully in context of the full quote) that were highly likely to be of scummy intent.
Certainly.
Quote from: D2
Statistically speaking, if the Suwako wagon was composed entirely of Townies (minus 1 because VgT was on it), and Suwako's and one other person's vote not on either wagon, you would need at least one Scum actively bussing VgT. Scum just letting their own members be the 2 dominating wagons of the day is extremely careless to be borderline suicidal as early flushing out of Scum just gives chance the Town to win by power role collusive lockdown.
Quote from: against Suwako D3
Also, saying "at least one of Serp/Affinity is just a terrible townie, but I ain't really up for betting on which, kill both," is a fucking lousy statement. I'm not sure if Serp is planning on going for you again today, but you're sure validating any reason he may have for doing so.
Quote from: on Serp
During the reread, he is amazingly consistent with his thoughts on Suwako... reasoning... In essence, I think he's less likely to be an SK than Rou, but also a little less likely to be Town than Rou if that makes any sense.
Note the huge turnabout, when Serp has done only one post in the time window from the first quote to the third quote. Also, he uses consistency to add town cred to Serp which is inconsistent with his point against me now.
I think Serp's pushing of the wagon in Day 3 is scummier than Rou's pushing the wagon in Day 1 although both are pretty bad anyways. Favoring the Serp lynch at the moment.
This is the other turnaround, founded on flips only instead of anything Serp said. Especially ironic since lots of people pushed the Suwako lynch too, like Rou and me, making the point a little ironic. Subsequent questioning is solid however, but this is why I feel bad about Kiro.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 03, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
*gasps*
EBWOP:
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As for Suwako, technically, you OMGUSed Suwako because Suwako fakevoted you first (due to his vote restriction) before you voted him. And Suwako's opinions of what he thinks of MotK Mafia players has no bearing on his scumminess no matter how much it personally antagonized you. And if your other two suspects were doing something useful with their votes, you didn't publicly mention whether you thought these votes should factor for or against the case on Suwako in #570.
Fair but I had valid points on Suwako as well. And the OMGUS is a technicality when I had other points against him.
Lastly, on your last post, I have to ask why I, if I were scum, would vote Suwako instead of Anthony? Furthermore, I voted for a different set of reasons than that of Rou and others. Am sure that it has some bearing.
From the next post onwards, I shall do everything in paragraph form. Sorry for the wall people.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 03, 2009, 02:08:54 AM
Affinity: To illustrate the change from going to Serp to Suwako, pretty much that statement about "at least one of Serp/Affinity is just a terrible townie, but I ain't really up for betting on which, kill both," and the lackadaisical way Suwako pursued Tenshi really put doubts on whether Suwako was acting on Town's best interests. Especially after Suwako's whole gripe about how Day 1 is pointless in #261. Throwing in the so called preemptive statement afterwards is just a thought I shouldn't have put out. You should note that at the bottom of that quote in #555, I say I'm still down for the Serp lynch and had voted for Serp already. So no, I hadn't changed my opinion of Serp being Scum at this point, only stated that Suwako was looking less Townie.
Incorrect about Serp only having one post between the first (I assume you mean the 2nd box #555, but whatever) and 3rd quote box you mentioned. Serp had 2 posts: his case and vote for Suwako (#562) and a reply to Suwako that included his Vig roleclaim (#591). The 3rd quote you are referencing is #595 where I consider the Vig/SK possibilities and my opinion wavers on Serp and Suwako due to possible setup analysis. Thus, I felt there was a chance Serp was a Townie who tunneled in on a correct case and Suwako was Scum. #595 is where I changed my votes. I was wrong in my analysis. And the turnaround back onto Serp because of flips is hardly scummy.
As for why Scum you would have voted Suwako instead of Anthony, why not? They were both Townies. The key thing to note is that Serp voted 3rd on the Suwako wagon pushing it above Anthony's. Serp decided to make Suwako the Scum's mislynch of choice, but he probably had Scum help in doing so. It makes less sense for Scum Rou/Scum Serp to do the Suwako wagon because they would assumably have to wait for any Townie to place the 2nd vote on Suwako, and it makes far more sense in Scum strategy for Scum Affinity/Scum Serp to boost a Town Rou's misguided wagon up and possibly pin it on Rou later while trying to save VgT. If one wants to argue all 3 of you are Scum, I find that really ridiculous that players of your experience would put all your eggs in this one basket made from scratch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 03, 2009, 03:04:43 AM
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UK: Rou defending VgT just looks like a Townie error to me now. Convince me which specific points are far more likely to have Scum intent over simply being Townie tunnelling error which is how I see it. You were vehement on Rou, but you got almost nobody else to vote Rou alongside you. The only vote support that I can recall was Affinity. In other words, you don't argue that strongly to the rest of Town that Rou was a top priority over anybody else in the game.
Ok, and this is scummy how? Explain please why my ineffectual arguing, which is ALWAYS ineffectual should put me in hot water this time?
I've already covered the chainsawing.
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I thought this stood out as anti-Townie in Day 3 when you came in late and still voted Rou. We don't get the lynches we want a lot of the times so we have to make the effort to salvage what we can get. In this critical juncture in Day 3, you did NOTHING. No dissuading the Suwako case, no arguing for the Rou case to be stronger than either Serp or Suwako,
To the first, I already made my anti case on Suwako. No one listened. To part two, I already argued the Rou case. No one listened.
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no voting the Serp wagon to potentially derail the Suwako wagon and no further questioning in the Day.
to this, I wasn't going to attack a claimed PR
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There is no Townieness whatsoever in that sequence.
Then demonstrate the scuminess
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e. Your Rou vote at that time was a throwaway and with Town making the wrong choice that Day, the throwaway looks really suspicious. The underlined is what you should've done, but I also see you giving up on the Rou lynch from happening DURING your Rou vote in #599... And you didn't push it enough in #602 or #605.
Define a)pushing enough, b)a strong enough example of how this differs from the normal effectiveness of my arguments, and/or 3) how UK, the player, should have handled it within her play limits.
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UK: Why does it seem like your purposely trying to avoid re-reading Affinity? It seems your sick, but you've been able to make quote fences, and such.
It's laziness more than anything. I see 25 pages of text to go through. I really don't want to do that. I will have to however eventually..
Quote
My point is that being paranoid of everyone doesn't help Town at all. To illustrate the point, there are 15 possible scumpairs out there right now. There have to be SOME people who you're willing to say are probably not scum at this point, surely.
Well, if anyone is town, not you.
I guess Sodium has the least on him, but he's someone else I need to reread honestly. It's just Affinity will probably turn up more.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 03, 2009, 04:12:54 AM
If your scumhunting is ineffectual, it's neutral at best and scummy at worst if one perceives the target you are going for to be likely Town. From a Town point of view, your voice or case is not reaching anybody. But from a Scum's point of view, you can be building a stance on your target, yet let him slide by while other mislynch targets are propped up far more strongly due to how the game is playing out (Day 2 or Day 3), until you can conveniently push for your target's lynch such as in LYLO. It pretty much is neutral for most of the game, but since we're in LYLO, neutral doesn't quite cut it anymore. I have to make that judgment call about your target now and peg it as likely Town or likely Scum. That's one of the reasons I'm attacking you now.
Stating you don't like the Suwako wagon doesn't mean you're trying to dissuade it. You never state or reintroduce evidence urging those who were voting Suwako to get off and vote Rou who happened to be on that Suwako wagon. Read through #599, #602 and #605. All commentating, no evidence.
The scumminess is that you say you are totally against the Suwako wagon, but would at least be a little more favorable to a Serp wagon via #599, yet you have no votes on one or the other to truly reflect such attitudes. You stated viewpoints that are Townie in nature, but did not act on such viewpoints when you had the opportunity to swing momentum to that or at least to a different wagon than Suwako. Bystanderism is scummy which includes leaving your vote on throwaway targets especially when you were resigned that your vote would probably be a throwaway target in your #599. You were like that in Day 3 and to some extent in Day 2.
Scum UK stands to gain a lot by not using her vote to shift the wagon away from Suwako back to Serp while echoing the sentiment that Suwako is the wrong lynch. And if by deadline, the Serp lynch retook the lead, UK could tack on in the end and gain Town cred. If you ask me how likely this scenario is, I think it's reasonable because her position was pretty much the only undecided one at the time. I find this "carefully sitting back" kind of a scenario to be more likely than a Scum Rou doing what he has done this game.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 03, 2009, 06:42:03 AM
Quote from: Sodium
Kitten4U: You give: Scumpair theory based on two people who are "too townie" to you Scumpair theory based on two people who wanted Rou dead for a while.
How does that resemble what I said at all? I said that I can't find a buddy for Rou that makes sense to me. Speaking of which, who do you think it Rou's buddy?
---
So I decided to read the thread again to attempt to figure things out. I can totally see Affinity and UK as buddies.
UK's D1 play wasn't bad imo. There was a pretty good amount of scum hunting, ans she picks VgT over Suwako. However, at this point I don't think Affinity and Rou are buddies, which means at least one person was bussing VgT. Out of Kiro, Sodium and UK I think UK is the most likely person to be bussing. Kiro and Sodium got on the wagon before there was a lot of pressure on VgT, and UK got on the wagon after it was pretty clear that either Suwako or VgT was going down.
Affinity's D1 play was pretty shifty. Most of his comments were about Umu, me and Anthony and he joins the Suwako wagon. D2 he claims (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94550#msg94550) to have mentioned VgT in this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg90220#msg90220), but I don't think that really qualifies as talking about VgT. He asks VgT a couple of questions and says that his tone is bad (later he even says that tone has nothing to do with people being scum or not (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg99061#msg99061)). There is no stance there. I cannot tell if he found VgT scummy or not based on that post. Therefore, I say that post was not actually talking about VgT and the fact that he claimed it did feels off.
I definitely see where Kiro is coming from when he says that UK didn't do much to push his prefered lynch. Nothing new to add here. Same with Affinity's switch to Suwako. I agree that the timing feels off. I also agree that UK's D3 play is weird for the same reasons.
Now for connections. They conviniently seem to never have an opinion of each other. UK says she needs (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94770#msg94770) to reread Affinity (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94713#msg94713) a lot. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg94713#msg94713) And she never delievers. Ever. Affinity attacks Umu and prods UK (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89888#msg89888), but he stays on Umu later and doesn't mention UK even though she was voting for Rou for about the same reasons Umu was at the time. UK was also the only person he didn't have an opinion on D3 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg99061#msg99061)
tl;dr UK and Affinity look like a very plausable scum pair. I support their lynches.
---
Even after reading again Rou's play still bothers me, but I can't find anyone that makes sense as a buddy. Kiro and Sodium still look town too. So, UK and Affinity are my top choices for today.
I think that covers everything. I really hope that's the last time I have to read the whole thread. It takes me forever and it wears me out. Again, it's late so sorry if this is kind of jumbled.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Edible on October 03, 2009, 07:06:43 AM
Vote Count: Voting is for suckers, apparently Affinity (1): Roukanken
Not voting: Everyone else
With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
You have, uh... ~33 hours remaining, I think? Counting is hard.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 03, 2009, 07:13:03 AM
@Kiro:
I disagree with your twist on events.
Quote
Thus, I felt there was a chance Serp was a Townie who tunneled in on a correct case and Suwako was Scum. #595 is where I changed my votes. I was wrong in my analysis.
There was no change in your vote in 595. Also, how could you be wrong in your analysis when your points about Serp in D4 about him not 'scumhunting' properly appeared in D3 as "Serp is looking more and more town"? Flips don't change the analysis he made.
The fact that you also implicated him for, uh, 'pushing the Suwako wagon', which you have also done, also seems very fishy, especially since you agreed that he was putting all the good points on D3. Thus that turnaround is scummy because some facets of your previous analysis had absolutely nothing to do with the flips. This is not present with the others because none of them said that Serp's analysis was good or becoming more town.
I'll give up on the Anthony thing and agree with you. It's kind of WIFOM reasoning after all.
---
Kittern4u did not read properly. While I agree that I did not talk about UK, you did not talk much about, say UK either actually before today. Neither did Sodium on Kiro, so this is not a good enough point by itself. The point about VgT was more on how he would ever find Anthony scummy, not so much about his tone, though I have to accept I judged wrongly. The fact that there are not any other points, and that she clears Rou as a potential lynch today solely because 'she can't find a scumpair' is bad in any case. Only find scumbuddies after someone flips scum.
---
UK's response towards Kiro is bad, since she doesn't find Kiro scummy for any reasons which happened before today. Furthermore, she doesn't really have a coherent case today and seems more focused on defense than anything else. Reread is highly anticipated.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 03, 2009, 07:31:32 AM
Maybe it's because it's 1 AM and I wasn't able to type properly, but that's not what I was saying at all Affinity.
Quote from: Affinity
While I agree that I did not talk about UK, you did not talk much about, say UK either actually before today. Neither did Sodium on Kiro, so this is not a good enough point by itself.
Yes, I agree by itself it's not bad at all. However, UK said that she needed to reread you SEVERAL times and NEVER did (or at least never put up the PBPA like she did with everyone else she reread). Never. Then when you attacked Umu you did not attack UK when she was attacking Rou for virtually the same reasons. She was also the only person you did not have an opinion on D3. It's not just that you two didn't talk about each other much; from my point of view it looks like both of you avoid saying anything about each other.
Quote from: Affinity
The point about VgT was more on how he would ever find Anthony scummy, not so much about his tone, though I have to accept I judged wrongly.
Which has nothing to do with my point at all. You claimed you talked about VgT D1. You did not. That post was not a stance on VgT, it was a question and you don't mention him elsewhere. I find the fact that you tried to use that post to act like you mentioned VgT bad.
Quote from: Affinity
and that she clears Rou as a potential lynch today solely because 'she can't find a scumpair' is bad in any case. Only find scumbuddies after someone flips scum.
Why? We're in LYLO. Even if we lynch properly today we'll be in LYLO tomorrow. With so few people, the way I see it if I can't find someone to connect another person to it means that person is much less likely to be scum than someone I can connect someone to.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 03, 2009, 08:16:26 AM
Quote
Then when you attacked Umu you did not attack UK when she was attacking Rou for virtually the same reasons. She was also the only person you did not have an opinion on D3. It's not just that you two didn't talk about each other much; from my point of view it looks like both of you avoid saying anything about each other.
Oh, I'm sorry for the misinterpretation. u-mu's voting post then was along the lines of, say, 'ending random vote session is scummy', and selective thingies such as Rou not taking Anthony's defense as scummy, which was far worse than UK's accusations of Rou straw-manning him and Rou sticking fingers into pies without following up. UK's reasons in my opinion were far better, thus I didn't focus on her at all. As for UK's part of the problem, I can't say anything since I ain't her.
Quote
Which has nothing to do with my point at all. You claimed you talked about VgT D1. You did not. That post was not a stance on VgT, it was a question and you don't mention him elsewhere. I find the fact that you tried to use that post to act like you mentioned VgT bad.
It does. I questioned VgT, and that in itself is talking about him, and it was implicitly a stance that I found his scumhunting ways weird and loopholish; if not I would not be questioning him. I am not saying that I am cleared totally on this issue at all, but I was simply asking the question.
Quote
Why? We're in LYLO. Even if we lynch properly today we'll be in LYLO tomorrow. With so few people, the way I see it if I can't find someone to connect another person to it means that person is much less likely to be scum than someone I can connect someone to.
If town lynches UK today, and she flips scum, then yes, it's perfectly fine for you to find those who did not talk about UK much scummy, for example, me. But the idea is that there is no guarantee that she is scum yet, thus there has to be an assumption that there is such for it to be a valid point against me. I'm sure others would disagree with me, but I am more for finding associations between the dead and the alive instead of the alive and alive unless a clearcut chainsaw occurs between the two. Makes everything simpler.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 03, 2009, 11:37:00 AM
This game is seriously starting to give me a headache.
I'll quickly note that UK STILL hasn't done that Affinity reread which she promised a while back.
But the idea is that there is no guarantee that she is scum yet, thus there has to be an assumption that there is such for it to be a valid point against me. I'm sure others would disagree with me, but I am more for finding associations between the dead and the alive instead of the alive and alive unless a clearcut chainsaw occurs between the two. Makes everything simpler.
When two players who have been iffy for most of the game conveniently don't talk about each other, that's suspicious. Besides, it's not like we have a lynch to spare to test this theory. :/
Sorry, just woke up and about to go to a friend's house. More tonight, hopefully.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 03, 2009, 01:55:39 PM
Quote
Stating you don't like the Suwako wagon doesn't mean you're trying to dissuade it. You never state or reintroduce evidence urging those who were voting Suwako to get off and vote Rou who happened to be on that Suwako wagon. Read through #599, #602 and #605. All commentating, no evidence.
nn~...the witch side resigns this point.
I could have been more effective, yes. However, I was not thinking in that manner at the time. Considering the fact that I usually don't end up defending town though, however, I don't think this is necessarily a strong point against me.
Quote
If your scumhunting is ineffectual, it's neutral at best and scummy at worst if one perceives the target you are going for to be likely Town. From a Town point of view, your voice or case is not reaching anybody. But from a Scum's point of view, you can be building a stance on your target, yet let him slide by while other mislynch targets are propped up far more strongly due to how the game is playing out (Day 2 or Day 3), until you can conveniently push for your target's lynch such as in LYLO. It pretty much is neutral for most of the game, but since we're in LYLO, neutral doesn't quite cut it anymore. I have to make that judgment call about your target now and peg it as likely Town or likely Scum. That's one of the reasons I'm attacking you now.
Fair, but I'm not ceding the point, I merely can't argue against an opinion like that. I mean, it's a matter of approach at this point.
Quote
The scumminess is that you say you are totally against the Suwako wagon, but would at least be a little more favorable to a Serp wagon via #599, yet you have no votes on one or the other to truly reflect such attitudes. You stated viewpoints that are Townie in nature, but did not act on such viewpoints when you had the opportunity to swing momentum to that or at least to a different wagon than Suwako. Bystanderism is scummy which includes leaving your vote on throwaway targets especially when you were resigned that your vote would probably be a throwaway target in your #599. You were like that in Day 3 and to some extent in Day 2.
I do not cede this point, because of the reasons previously stated. In terms of value and towniness neither target was worthwhile, nor was either target worth diverting for the other. In my view at the time. I disagree it was bystanderism. I call it being caught between a rock and a hard place ^-^
Quote
Scum UK stands to gain a lot by not using her vote to shift the wagon away from Suwako back to Serp while echoing the sentiment that Suwako is the wrong lynch. And if by deadline, the Serp lynch retook the lead, UK could tack on in the end and gain Town cred. If you ask me how likely this scenario is, I think it's reasonable because her position was pretty much the only undecided one at the time. I find this "carefully sitting back" kind of a scenario to be more likely than a Scum Rou doing what he has done this game.
I can't argue your probabilities since they were pretty much pulled out of your ass and everyone would have a different opinion. Stalemate here.
Quote
UK's D1 play wasn't bad imo. There was a pretty good amount of scum hunting, ans she picks VgT over Suwako. However, at this point I don't think Affinity and Rou are buddies, which means at least one person was bussing VgT. Out of Kiro, Sodium and UK I think UK is the most likely person to be bussing. Kiro and Sodium got on the wagon before there was a lot of pressure on VgT, and UK got on the wagon after it was pretty clear that either Suwako or VgT was going down.
I really didn't want to point this out but...that's quite a sub optimal play for scum UK. There was no need for VgT to go down then, since my vote actually tied it up 4 to 4 I believe (either that or put VgT at 5 to 4). I do not know which vote Sodium's fell on. At any rate...it's up to you to decide from there.
I don't think there's much else to argue against K4U
Quote
UK's response towards Kiro is bad, since she doesn't find Kiro scummy for any reasons which happened before today. Furthermore, she doesn't really have a coherent case today and seems more focused on defense than anything else. Reread is highly anticipated
Please don't strawman. I never said Kiro was scummy. Yes, I am defending mostly today. I did most of my attacking these past few days and plan to vote Rou if nothing turns up when I reread you. which, I suppose I'll actually do today after this post, much as I really don't feel like it.
Quote
I'll quickly note that UK STILL hasn't done that Affinity reread which she promised a while back.
I'll quickly note you know DAMN WELL I was playing Umineko yesterday and finishing it off because I was rather entranced by the awesome.
Anyway, rectifying now, etc.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 03, 2009, 03:38:05 PM
OMGIreallydon'twannadothiswhatapainintheass on Affinity
Yay, I didn't have to start til page 4~
Post 98: Pokes me and Umu and Anthony...ok fair enough
Post 121 appears to be decent as well...
Post 160 pokes VgT. Will there be a follow up?
Post 173 bothers me a little...did we ever ask for further elaboration on that?
Post 218 is good for explaining that. Fair post overall
294 feels decent
378 is decent on Anthony.
389 does bring up an interesting point. That VgT never WAS followed up on...this does not bode well
419 is quite decent (well duh, it agrees with me :P)
427 shows the start of a shift from Suwa town to Suwa scum
I like 478, though it does only poke Serpy
490 is reasonable..
Affinity 546: Oh hey, you play Umineko (or listen to Wrathie too much :P) Also appears to be on the right track ^-^
550 is more of a shift to Suwa scum...I guess I should have argued more for Suwa town
607 is fair, but probably should involve more Vote: Serpy
Oh, still fine with Suwa :S
Ugh at 644...what the hell Affinity?
648...did I get an answer for what Serp point?
685 should contain more Vote Serpy given Affinity's views
698...actually, it is lylo so I can understand hesitance on vote Serpy. He was at L-1 I'm guessing?
No, L-3. Honestly, there should be more Vote Serpy
711 needs more...oh, there it is, Vote Serpy. Bout time.
725 feels like you are trying to poke everyone...except me...seems odd
728 is decent reasoning for why Rou's vote sucked but I don't think you are absolved of your reasoning. Serpy was at L-3 wasn't he?
731...did I miss something? What's the Kiro case?
Eh...everything to the end seems logical.
Honestly, not feeling Affinity scum
With that, I feel comfortable doing this
##Vote Roukanken
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 03, 2009, 07:13:00 PM
Bah, the post I was writing got eaten by a extremely short power outage. =V
And I've got HMWK and studying to do. =V So yeah. I'm just going to post some opinions later, because I need to do some stuff right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 03, 2009, 07:52:29 PM
Quote from: Affinity
Oh, I'm sorry for the misinterpretation. u-mu's voting post then was along the lines of, say, 'ending random vote session is scummy', and selective thingies such as Rou not taking Anthony's defense as scummy, which was far worse than UK's accusations of Rou straw-manning him and Rou sticking fingers into pies without following up. UK's reasons in my opinion were far better, thus I didn't focus on her at all. As for UK's part of the problem, I can't say anything since I ain't her.
I was actually refering to earlier in the game than that. At the time her only bit of original content on Rou was the strawman, but okay. Though, this post made me remember something else that I had actually forgotten about.
Quote from: UK
Umu has fair points on Rou. I don't disagree with them and I'll be placing a serious'd vote at the end of this post depending on what piques my interest.
Quote from: Me
I think Umu brings up some legit points on Rou, but I don't think the case on Rou is stronger than the one on Anthony.
Am I the only one that thinks those two comments look similar? UK didn't elaborate on why she agreed with Umu either (and yes, I read through all her posts between that quote and the post where you call me out for not elaborating on stuff). What's the difference between what I said and what UK said?
Quote from: Affinity
It does. I questioned VgT, and that in itself is talking about him, and it was implicitly a stance that I found his scumhunting ways weird and loopholish; if not I would not be questioning him. I am not saying that I am cleared totally on this issue at all, but I was simply asking the question.
Then I suppose when I asked Umu to elaborate on Nietz I must have thought he was scum (I didn't). Asking a single question isn't a stance. As I said, I cannot tell if you thought VgT was scummy or not based on that post and you never actually follow up and you never mention him anywhere else. Therefore, I think that you never actually commented on VgT and I think it's flat out bad that you tried to use that post to make it sound like you did. The way I see it, saying that you talked about VgT would be like me saying I talked about Kilga.
Quote from: Affinity
If town lynches UK today, and she flips scum, then yes, it's perfectly fine for you to find those who did not talk about UK much scummy, for example, me. But the idea is that there is no guarantee that she is scum yet, thus there has to be an assumption that there is such for it to be a valid point against me. I'm sure others would disagree with me, but I am more for finding associations between the dead and the alive instead of the alive and alive unless a clearcut chainsaw occurs between the two. Makes everything simpler.
Well naturally I'd want to connect you to the dead scum too and I was under the impression I did so. You didn't talk about VgT despite him being a major bandwagon (and worse you tried to make it sound like you did) and your switch to Suwako D3 was really awkward. There were also minimal comments about Serp even though you said that you found him very suspicious (and no, I don't expect you to repeat what you said to Kiro on this). I just think you have suspicious connections to UK as well, and since there are two scum left I find that to be a good point.
Quote from: UK
I really didn't want to point this out but...that's quite a sub optimal play for scum UK. There was no need for VgT to go down then, since my vote actually tied it up 4 to 4 I believe (either that or put VgT at 5 to 4). I do not know which vote Sodium's fell on. At any rate...it's up to you to decide from there.
Sodium was second, Kiro was third you were fifth. Both Sodium and Kiro voted before there was a lot of pressure on him and you voted after there was a lot. So yeah, I still think that you are the most likely person to have been bussing.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 03, 2009, 08:04:50 PM
Quote
Sodium was second, Kiro was third you were fifth. Both Sodium and Kiro voted before there was a lot of pressure on him and you voted after there was a lot. So yeah, I still think that you are the most likely person to have been bussing.
Well, one could quite easily argue that it was safer when to vote him for townie points earlier without cost than later.
I think it'll end up in WIFOM.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 03, 2009, 08:07:09 PM
I'm sort of irritated with how much of UK's analysis here consists of 'Post X is okay', to be frank. You say that you have several problems with him - never following up on that VgT poke from D1, reluctance to vote Serp despite saying he appreciates the case, singling you out as the one person he doesn't analyse, the case on Kiro you don't get - and yet you dismiss him as being logical? It doesn't really add up.
Quote
In terms of value and towniness neither target was worthwhile, nor was either target worth diverting for the other. In my view at the time.
This comes across as plain laziness. 'I don't care about the two main lynches because I have my own target, so I'll just not give opinions or contribute with everyone else'. Mafia is about killing off players outside of your factions. So if you're Town and believe that someone under suspicion is Townie, then you should be doing your damnedest to protect them. Sitting back and letting them die is anti-Town, how much of a case you say you have on me.
Quote
I can't argue your probabilities since they were pretty much pulled out of your ass and everyone would have a different opinion. Stalemate here.
The argument is that scum don't want to draw attention to themselves with big wagon shifts onto Townies, and by avoiding a stance on Serp/Suwa D3 you were avoiding attention. Not really sure how this qualifies as probability.
Quote
I really didn't want to point this out but...that's quite a sub optimal play for scum UK. There was no need for VgT to go down then, since my vote actually tied it up 4 to 4 I believe (either that or put VgT at 5 to 4). I do not know which vote Sodium's fell on. At any rate...it's up to you to decide from there.
Thinking about this further...this line of logic only holds if one of these players survives. If scum were relatively sure that Suwako was going to be lynched anyway, they'd jump onto the VgT wagon for townie cred. I can only really make this hypothesis because the alternative is that Affinity and I are a scumpair and I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. So if scum weren't on the VgT wagon, UK, does that mean you endorse the Rou/Aff pair despite not seeing Affinity scum?
Really, fine with an Affinity or a UK lynch at this point.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 03, 2009, 09:25:56 PM
Quote
I'm sort of irritated with how much of UK's analysis here consists of 'Post X is okay', to be frank. You say that you have several problems with him - never following up on that VgT poke from D1, reluctance to vote Serp despite saying he appreciates the case, singling you out as the one person he doesn't analyse, the case on Kiro you don't get - and yet you dismiss him as being logical? It doesn't really add up.
Compared to what I perceive from you, yes. Quite a bit more so. I have about 3 or 4 problems compared to the like over 9000 I have with you.
Quote
This comes across as plain laziness. 'I don't care about the two main lynches because I have my own target, so I'll just not give opinions or contribute with everyone else'. Mafia is about killing off players outside of your factions. So if you're Town and believe that someone under suspicion is Townie, then you should be doing your damnedest to protect them. Sitting back and letting them die is anti-Town, how much of a case you say you have on me.
To the first, nice strawman. It's pretty cool ^-^ To the second, but is it scummy?
Quote
The argument is that scum don't want to draw attention to themselves with big wagon shifts onto Townies, and by avoiding a stance on Serp/Suwa D3 you were avoiding attention. Not really sure how this qualifies as probability.
He proposed a scenario. I already proposed my scenario. They aren't compatible. But yelling at each other isn't going to change that. I can't push the point
Quote
Thinking about this further...this line of logic only holds if one of these players survives. If scum were relatively sure that Suwako was going to be lynched anyway, they'd jump onto the VgT wagon for townie cred. I can only really make this hypothesis because the alternative is that Affinity and I are a scumpair and I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. So if scum weren't on the VgT wagon, UK, does that mean you endorse the Rou/Aff pair despite not seeing Affinity scum?
But I never said that VgT wasn't bussed, did I? I merely said that I wasn't the one doing it.
I already explained why
So...yeah..next question?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 03, 2009, 09:37:07 PM
Compared to what I perceive from you, yes. Quite a bit more so. I have about 3 or 4 problems compared to the like over 9000 I have with you.
There's a difference between 'I don't think Affinity is scummy' and 'I think Affinity is scummy but I think Rou is worse'.
Quote
To the first, nice strawman. It's pretty cool ^-^
I'm saying that's how I interpret it. It's an opinion, so it doesn't qualify as strawman.
Quote
To the second, but is it scummy?
Not attempting to intervene to protect people who you think are Townie? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as scummy. Are you honestly trying to claim you're third-party here?
Quote
But I never said that VgT wasn't bussed, did I? I merely said that I wasn't the one doing it.
I already explained why
The point I'm making is that if scum thought both lynches were going down eventually, there was no harm in lynching VgT first for the sake of Town cred. Based on that, where better to stand than a late swing vote?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 04, 2009, 01:03:31 AM
Quote
There's a difference between 'I don't think Affinity is scummy' and 'I think Affinity is scummy but I think Rou is worse'.
I don't see you two as together.
Quote
Not attempting to intervene to protect people who you think are Townie? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as scummy. Are you honestly trying to claim you're third-party here?
No, I'm saying I screwed up and did something anti town, but I doubt it implicates me as scum because I usually don't protect people anyway.
Quote
I'm saying that's how I interpret it. It's an opinion, so it doesn't qualify as strawman.
But the opinion is one that is so far from what I actually said it's untrue
Quote
The point I'm making is that if scum thought both lynches were going down eventually, there was no harm in lynching VgT first for the sake of Town cred. Based on that, where better to stand than a late swing vote?
Wasn't really "late" per se. Actually about halfway though if I'm counting right.
At any rate, I'm still pissed at the Suwa lynch. That should not have happened, and I wouldn't have banked on it as either alignment...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 01:29:21 AM
No, I'm saying I screwed up and did something anti town, but I doubt it implicates me as scum because I usually don't protect people anyway.
So you're clearing yourself based on meta? >_>
Quote
But the opinion is one that is so far from what I actually said it's untrue
Because obviously everything everyone says in mafia is absolutely true. There's no such thing as hidden intent.
Quote
Wasn't really "late" per se. Actually about halfway though if I'm counting right.
The point still stands - if both were going to fall, there was no harm in getting some credit for VgT's death.
Quote
At any rate, I'm still pissed at the Suwa lynch. That should not have happened, and I wouldn't have banked on it as either alignment...
Then why didn't you do anything about it? Assuming that the rest of the players will magically come to the same opinion as you is, at best, horrendous Town play.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 01:40:00 AM
Affinity: #595, vote change at bottom. I spent a few posts considering everything in Day 3 and in those, my opinion was gradually changing. The 2 flips in Day 4 negated that Day 3 analysis. It took both flips to justify throwing out my analysis as bunk due to game setup meta as well as Serp's hesitance to actually vig Suwako on Night 2. I thought it was self-evident with the new points I made.
UK: More or less, points we are disagreeing on are subject to interpretation, but you have not disproved them so I still see them as valid in my own eyes. In essence, none of your replies to me convinced me you're more likely to be Town than what I see in Rou. As for your reread on Affinity, lots of "should have voted Serpy," comments, but you still think he's not Scum and vote Rou? Meh, just a recap, there's no analysis or direct comparison between Affinity and Rou. I don't think your decision makes sense and is scummy.
To chip in on the Day 3 issue: UK, the issue with you not intervening in Day 3 is that you're smart enough to realize that your preferred lynch was just not going to happen that day. We still want a lynch and you would have grudgingly had to give up Rou again for one more Day and throw your input into a close race: Suwako and Serp. You didn't and with the way the flips came out, it makes more sense for Scum to hang back than Town. Once again, judgment call since I can't shirk from this in LYLO.
I think UK's lack of analysis in the Affinity reread clinches her as my primary lynch candidate and I'm not finding the back and forth between her and Rou incriminating Rou in any strong fashion comparatively. Still thinking Affinity is the scumbuddy. I'd prefer Sodium get something in before the votes lead to a lynch at the end, but I'll start things off here.
##Vote UncertainKitten
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 01:51:44 AM
Rou, people should be able to defend themselves, unless someone's argument is poor / has an obvious counter / has a poor point worth pointing out to everyone. Defending someone to the point of chainsawing or to the point where you're just trying to stop legitimate points(and thus, scumhunting) against someone is not townie. Sorta like what I'm doing right now with your "YOU SHOULD DEFEND PEOPLE YOU THINK ARE TOWN TO THE DEATH".
That being said, UK should have you know, actually said more about a lynch she didn't want.
UK's re-read leads nowhere. Points out a bunch of things she dislikes, and then says "It makes sense logically(never said how), so I don't think Affinity is scum". Neither do I, but conflicting observations and conclusion/10.
...Oh, and the "that's how I play, deal with it" doesn't help. Just because you play that way doesn't make it scummy/anti-town.
Kiro + Sodium: Largely based on the fact that I think they're both town right now. Being that early on the VgT wagon makes both of them look good. Sodium also stuck with the Serp wagon D3 and Kiro has just been generally awesome that I doubt either of them are scum. Naturally, Rou cannot be scum buddies with town.
UK + Affinity: Both attacked Rou a lot. Enough that I doubt it was a bus.
There's either some serious bussing going on here or Rou is town. So, for those that still think Rou is scum, who is his buddy?
So you're saying that you didn't give those two scumpair theories? The first is the one that really raises eyebrows. Buddy? By Process of elimination, you. But that would pretty much be a random shot in the dark too...
Well, less then a day left. Okay, Rou either: Is the most obvbuddy to dead people ever Has the worst townie intuition ever(Rou isn't Reimu =3)
Although I concede that there really isn't anyone to link him to strongly. So let's test our luck...
*insert vote for UK here if Kiro didn't ninja vote her* (Don't want to L-1 yet. Deadline is still 12+ hours away)
I want to vote Rou, but firstly, I doubt that is going to go anywhere, and secondly, he's obvbuddy to some dead people. Which is fine and dandy, but I'm hoping for some alive people to connect people to. And UK really hasn't done much outside from "KILL MAIM BURN Rou", so if she flips scum, Rou's cleared. If she flips town, and Rou is town, I will facedesk really hard. If she's town and Rou's scum, I will never not vote people I think are obvscum ever again. --- Unrelated, but RAGE What the fuck, UK. Why'd you merge so many topics together and make a 98 page topic? Crashed the boards when I was making a post, causing me to lose ANOTHER POST. ;_; --- Damit Kiro. I lose a post, and then you ninja me with the vote I would make. And I don't want to L-1 yet.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 02:03:42 AM
Rou, people should be able to defend themselves, unless someone's argument is poor / has an obvious counter / has a poor point worth pointing out to everyone. Defending someone to the point of chainsawing or to the point where you're just trying to stop legitimate points(and thus, scumhunting) against someone is not townie.
UK claimed that she saw Suwako and Serp as not as bad as I am. Thus she could have argued in two ways over it: - Explain why the arguments against the above were false - Explain why exactly I was worse than either of the above She did neither, simply voting me without really comparing her case with the ones that were relevant, and when deadline rolled around she didn't do a thing with her vote.
I should probably be around for the last few hours before deadline to make hammer votes. Again, happy with either a UK or an Affinity lynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 02:09:25 AM
Which is why I said that she should've said more about those two. Especially when she was missing the whole day. Just talking about some Mafia Theory. That's also part of the reason I want you dead, but whatever.
Uh, I'd like some peoples to chime in before I vote.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 04, 2009, 02:15:09 AM
Quote from: Sodium
So you're saying that you didn't give those two scumpair theories? The first is the one that really raises eyebrows.
Yeah, I said that but I don't think you're understanding what I was saying. I don't think you or Kiro are scum so trying to pair you with Rou felt really, really forced in my opinion. And since UK and Affinity attacked Rou so much (enough that I don't think it was a bus) I could not find a single person to pair Rou with that made any sense at all.
Anyway, I'm fine with either UK or Affinity for today.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 02:30:46 AM
OH. I GET WHAT YOU WERE SAYING NOW.
...Next time, please don't talk about scumpairs and then list people in pairs for something in common. That's just begging to be misunderstood.
I probably won't be here exactly on the deadline, but I'll be here from 8 - 5 hours before the deadline. So yeah.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 04, 2009, 02:32:13 AM
Quote from: Sodium
...Next time, please don't talk about scumpairs and then list people in pairs for something in common. That's just begging to be misunderstood.
... *palmface* I blame it on being 3 AM when I typed that.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 04, 2009, 02:38:42 AM
Quote
So you're clearing yourself based on meta? >_>
I wouldn't say clearing. I'm merely arguing based on it.
Quote
Because obviously everything everyone says in mafia is absolutely true. There's no such thing as hidden intent.
Sure. Would you like me to say it in red?
Quote
Then why didn't you do anything about it? Assuming that the rest of the players will magically come to the same opinion as you is, at best, horrendous Town play.
I expressed my opinions, no one listened. This has been rehashed over 9000 times.
Well, whatever, can't say I didn't expect that from Kiro
Quote
What the fuck, UK. Why'd you merge so many topics together and make a 98 page topic? Crashed the boards when I was making a post, causing me to lose ANOTHER POST. ;_;
Because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Did you think I knew they'd crash? If I did, I wouldn't have done it
Quote
UK's re-read leads nowhere. Points out a bunch of things she dislikes, and then says "It makes sense logically(never said how), so I don't think Affinity is scum". Neither do I, but conflicting observations and conclusion/10.
I meant most of his posts flowed logically except for the few things I did find.
But, whatever, I'm the obvious lynch today. Have fun.
Farewell. We'll not meet again.
(well, not in this game)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 04, 2009, 03:29:16 AM
@Rou: Not really related to the game, but haha, I think your case sucks because you implied indirectly that elephants can fly but you can't say that is a strawman because that is my opinion and interpretation.
---
@K4u
Quote
UK didn't elaborate on why she agreed with Umu either (and yes, I read through all her posts between that quote and the post where you call me out for not elaborating on stuff). What's the difference between what I said and what UK said?
Nothing between, but before. As I said, UK had different reasons for voting Rou, and even though she may agree with u-mu, it is less worthy of consideration than a person whose only opinions on Rou hinges on agreeing with the u-mu case for no reasons (e.g you).
The other points, I think are pointless to defend at this point, it's just a back and forth.
---
Cases:
UK is not detailed enough with her post-by-post. Why is my Kiro case bad? And why am I still logical after everything? There really seems to be a lack of stances, which is bad this game. To all the 'why didn't you vote accusations', I would simply cite K4u, who only voted moments before I did, who thought Serp was scummy as well, and Rou, who, uh, voted for someone who didn't think was scummy at all and hammered. (But ah, he defended someone he thought was town in the best way possible, no contradiction there!) It was simply waiting for the end of the day and voting only when necessary.
Also, let me summarize my case on Kiro, though it may not be one I may follow through with today. D2 thought Suwako was obvtown because of bandwagon analysis. Concrete evidence. Goes on to switch D3 because of Serp's reasoning, roleclaim and scumhunting (not affecting the evidence), which pushed Suwako to the bottom. D4 goes a complete turnaround and actually goes on to say that Serp's reasoning is horrible, something which is NOT affected by flips at all. Votes him for pushing the Suwako bandwagon', which he himself did too. This has a little bit of scum motive attached to it. Also, Kiro, I don't see it here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg101333#msg101333). Did you mean 589?
Roukanken's questioning, throughout the game, I have to admit, despite all his AtE and his silly mistakes, looks town. He went out of his way to attack people when he could have just laid back, which is what I think scum would do. What I'm worried about, however, is that he has virtually no consistency in his personality between days, and thus it's very hard to really peg him as town. I however hate his play this game overall.
Sodium is another potential lynch. Other than the K4u post on D2 and being the first one to point out the role confusion with Serp on D4, and some sporadic questioning, he has not really done all that much, especially for today. Going for Roukanken is perfectly fine, but saying that Kiro has some scummy points without saying anything about them and not really going to why I'm not scum (I'm not, but I think the case against me is decent enough) sounds like scum trying to wait out the day. But bandwagon analysis are favorable towards him.
K4u is a really good player, and I simply am most confident about her. If she turns out to be scum, then I must take my hat off, because I can't think of such.
I'm thinking of either Kiro or UK today. Ninja by UK was horrible.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 03:40:29 AM
@Rou: Not really related to the game, but haha, I think your case sucks because you implied indirectly that elephants can fly but you can't say that is a strawman because that is my opinion and interpretation.
Misrep. Strawman is 'you said A' when they said B. This is 'you meant A' when they said B.
UK giving up is horrible. Not much else to say.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 03:43:47 AM
EBWOP: A better way to explain is that scum won't outright say 'I didn't vote because I wanted to avoid attention', they'll come up with an excuse like 'I didn't vote because I felt my case was stronger and I wasn't convinced by either of the cases going out'. I'm suspecting UK of doing this, since she didn't back up her use of the second quote with a decent defense of Suwako/Serp, or even a comparison with her Rou case.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 03:45:07 AM
Whoa, Affinity, you actually expect me to have become a good player overnight? =3
But seriously, I've been somewhat busy.
And I'm saying that everyone has done something scummy by now. I then looked at whether the TOWN things you've done outweighs the scummy stuff. Do I have to list out everything? I prefer just to get the main message across and then go into details later. Less walls for me(I've been somewhat busy after all), and less repeating too.
And UKs post looked like a "I give up, cya". I'm exaggerating, but whatever. I doubt someone as experienced as UK would be moronic enough to give up as town on LYLO. ##Vote UK L-1 Everyone is cool with UK getting lynched, and UK herself gave up(WOW! A 100% MAJORITY). There really isn't anything that will stop the lynch, so no point in dragging it out. If UK is town, I will face desk.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 04, 2009, 04:11:22 AM
GOOD MORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIING!
##Unvote, Vote UncertainKitten
Have a nice day!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 04:17:13 AM
...wat?
*shuts up*
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 4) - The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Post by: Edible on October 04, 2009, 04:22:12 AM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 04, 2009, 04:23:38 AM
You jerkwads tricked me. >:|
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Edible on October 04, 2009, 04:24:55 AM
The day is not over, UncertainKitten is at L-1 unless both mods managed to miss a vote somewhere. You have ~11 hours remaining in the day.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 04, 2009, 04:26:13 AM
Control-F "##" returned what the votecount is.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 04:28:59 AM
Affinity: Yea, my mistake there. Misread when I voted Suwako, turns out it was before the Vig roleclaim. Once again, the crux of my error regarding Suwako/Serp is that despite me being wrong on Day 3, I did take the time to discuss it and lay out my thoughts. You seem to be unhappy in that you think I switch suddenly back and forth, but it's not. My thought processes are laid out to be seen.
I'm not seeing the specific quote that says where I said Serp's reasoning was horrible. Unless you're talking about the part where I consider it from an SK point of view in Day 4. In that regards, I'm stating Serp makes no sense as an SK. So he's Town or Scum. Factor in Pesco's already Vig-like role and that's how the flips sent my vote back to Serp.
Well, better get this in while the Day's still going. Town UK would not be hammering herself in LYLO.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 04:29:42 AM
Wait, what? Wasn't there another vote on UK?
...Jesus, thats two games in a row where I misread a vote count. Well, in this case, I can't count.
And could someone just fucking hammer already. UK voted herself, obvscum expecting to die, etc. She already gave up, this is like taking the hammered in nail and destroying it, then putting in a larger nail in its place.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 04:30:12 AM
Uh...should I hammer, or do we want to keep the day open a little longer? :/
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 04:33:04 AM
Your choice. It seems UK wasn't Uncertain that she was going to die, and wanted to go out in a boom. Failed. Dunno why she followed a vote count from someone who can't count well, but whatever.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 04:35:10 AM
Well, we could get a unique discussion going, being 99.9% certain UK is scum, but with 5 of us still alive before Night hits. Time to discuss final buddy for the group of VgT/Serp/UK.
I think the Affinity case has been laid out adequately already. Affinity says the final Scum is me. So anyone have questions for me or concerns? Since I just put out a reply to Affinity where I fouled up remembering when I voted for Suwako in Day 3.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 04:41:51 AM
Yeah, much to my mother's chagrin I'm pulling an all-nighter, so I can talk this over for a while.
Personally I'm much more willing to trust Kiro than Affinity at this point, but if UK ends up flipping a goon then Affinity's basically off the hook. Besides that, I see no problem with the case against him, as well as his awkward silence with regards to UK up until now.
I'll hold off on the hammer for a little longer.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 04:53:11 AM
Well, I would, but I'm now forced to go to sleep. I doubt I cna make a coherent long post right now anyways, seeing as I can't even count.
Uh, Affinity has the most links to a ScumUK apparently though. I'll re-read tomorrow(and if I can't post tomorrow, then I'll post the stuff on whenever). Solid flips are better then assumptions(no matter how probable they are), and we have a 99.9% solid "flip". I think Affinity said that first this game actually... correct me if I'm wrong.
...Yeah, I need rest.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 04:53:31 AM
Kinda want to hear Sodium's thoughts the most since he suspected Rou more than Affinity. I don't know if he'll become convinced that Rou is Town after a UK Scum flip or whether he thinks UK superbussed a Scum Rou all game.
And obviously if it's not looking like Rou to him, does he think the last scum is Affinity, me or K4U?
My only contention with Sodium possibly being Scum is mainly that he's been relatively inactive in this game and the hard stance on Rou. But his vote positioning favors him quite well, relatively similar to K4U. A UK Scumflip copuled with the really early VgT vote actually makes Sodium look really good now. Since he switched from UK to VgT in that sequence. Scum Sodium has no reason to distinguish either if he were planning a hard bus that early in the game. So Sodium definitely feels Townie now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 05:00:02 AM
And quite frankly, if Sodium/UK were a pair, I'm sure they would have been much more diligent in counting votes and communicating it correctly instead of having this fiasco hit them and giving Town more time to discuss with more information.
Laugh it up mods, I'm sure you have been all game. Ya bastards.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Affinity on October 04, 2009, 05:02:29 AM
That... was kind of the most hilarious thing I have ever seen in the year I have played Mafia here. This is also potentially going to be really difficult for me to play regardless of my alignment. Sucks to be Minoriko.
Kiro, here it is, in He is not providing any of those opinions. In essence, lack of true scumhunting and just settles on the case that can only make sense to him due to his claimed role.[/QUOTE]
But you said that his reasons were good on D3. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg105919#msg105919
[QUOTE)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: ?lice Bl?ckb?rn on October 04, 2009, 05:16:49 AM
Laugh it up mods, I'm sure you have been all game. Ya bastards.
Oh, it's not just the mods that have been laughing it up for the entirety of this game... :V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 05:22:49 AM
Shut it scumbag. :V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 04, 2009, 05:58:17 AM
wat
Well I think it's clear UK is scum. I've already said why I think Affinity is scum. Was there more all of you wanted to talk about or should I hammer?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 06:01:17 AM
Affinity: You referring to #660 or perhaps #656 since your quote got borked?
#656 is after Serp put forward his Day 4 case and voted Nietz. I had renewed suspicion of him at the beginning of Day 4 from the 2 flips before that post. If Serp makes an argument I don't agree with since, then I can point things out that I don't like about it and have it further my case. What's the problem with this? Changing stances is not inherently scummy if new information is presented to me. If you're suggesting that any of the new information that was received could not lead into this change of opinion I made back to Serp, tell me why not.
K4U: *shrug* We could continue discussing, but if you're not interested in any future replies from Affinity or do not have any questions for me, you could hammer. Rou hasn't added anything since so I'm not sure if he's heard enough for now. I assume give him and Affinity a few minutes as well.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 06:04:19 AM
I'm just about happy to go on with the hammer right now.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 04, 2009, 08:25:48 AM
Huh. Well, that worked out just as planned.
Or not. And here I was thinking slightly after midnight was the greatest time to self hammer.
AH well ^-^. Guess that's what I get for being a bad sport. Ah well, with that failure I guess I just have to wait for you all :S.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kitten4u on October 04, 2009, 08:32:35 AM
No one's talking anymore and I'm going to go to bed soo...
##Vote UncertainKitten
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 04, 2009, 08:50:20 AM
THAR we go. That feels better. Should I raise both my arms up and let one fall or something now?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 5) - One Of These Days, Alice, One Of These Days...
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 04, 2009, 12:10:59 PM
Final Day 5 Vote Count Affinity (1): Roukanken UncertainKitten (4): Kiro, Sodium, UncertainKitten, Kitten4U
Uncertain Kitten, thought to be playing Rin Kaenbyou, but really playing Takoluka (Scum Voteblocker) was po pipopipo popipopped!
It is now Night 5. Remember, send all night actions to both of us.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 5) - The Energizer Reisen Would Be Proud
Post by: Edible on October 04, 2009, 09:30:34 PM
(http://i35.tinypic.com/sopc44.jpg)
I may be starting the day a little early. Any complaints?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 5) - The Energizer Reisen Would Be Proud
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 04, 2009, 09:32:05 PM
I myself think this is an excellent idea!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Night 5) - The Energizer Reisen Would Be Proud
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 09:47:08 PM
If early means in the next hour or so, I'm cool with it. I'd rather be awake at the start of the day. >_>
Title: It's!
Post by: Edible on October 04, 2009, 09:50:48 PM
[size=8]Dawn of the Sixth Day[/size]
Kitten4U, playing Yumemi, Vanilla Townie, suffered a fatal strawberry paniccrisis and was forced to withdraw!
Town is in LYLO.
The votecount has been reset. You have 7 (real) days. Fire missiles!
With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 10:22:33 PM
I think the cases have been more or less set out for today. Right now I think Affinity is today's best target.
Quote
If town lynches UK today, and she flips scum, then yes, it's perfectly fine for you to find those who did not talk about UK much scummy, for example, me. But the idea is that there is no guarantee that she is scum yet, thus there has to be an assumption that there is such for it to be a valid point against me. I'm sure others would disagree with me, but I am more for finding associations between the dead and the alive instead of the alive and alive unless a clearcut chainsaw occurs between the two. Makes everything simpler.
Think it's only fair to call you out on this, since you admit it yourself.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Kiro on October 04, 2009, 10:26:17 PM
Let's not take 7 days...
I already more or less cleared Sodium yesterday in the aftermath of the votecount fiasco. UK to VgT switch makes little sense for Scum Eliphas/Sodium to do when there's no telling if either Scum wagon was going to be more dominant than the other. Looks like genuine scumhunting. Stays on Serp in Day 3 when the 3 remaining people today didn't. My jaw will drop if the remaining 3 of us are snipping at each other and Sodium turns out to be the correct lynch.
---
As for Rou, one factor to consider now is whether UK intended to superbus a Scum Rou this game. Doesn't make that much sense because UK switched from Rou to VgT in Day 1 if I remember correctly. So she got Town cred with that bus. But in Day 3, UK obviously avoids trying to save Suwako and hangs back with her vote on Rou. Kind of gives the impression she was only comfortable with bussing one of her buddies. If she also bussed Serp (and it wouldn't have even put Serp in the lead), I'm halfway certain we wouldn't have caught her this game. Factor in what I think about Rou's Day 1 and Day 4 activities and I still think he's Town.
---
Pretty much leaves Affinity from my point of view. The likely Scum actions fit him better, mainly following what would have been a Townie Rou's Suwako wagon in Day 1 and his buddy Serp following him. The Day 3 Suwako wagon gives a similar feeling except Serp starts it and Rou follows it. Even if you consider a huge conspiracy theory about Rou being superbussed by UK, if you factor in Affinity's unwillingness to comment early about UK in Day 5, it reads too much like a Scum trying not to incriminate his buddy anymore rather than Town just not having an opinion about someone.
Will wait for comments from everyone else, but I'm also set for Affinity.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Sodium on October 04, 2009, 10:44:49 PM
Kiro: There IS the possibility of superbussing from UK, but I don't think it's likely because of how suicidal that would be, and there were a huge number of times where UK could've switched targets(Serp-Suwako decision, beginning of Day 4, Affinity re-read post, etc.), but didn't, during LYLO(where I doubt UK would stick on a buddy where there were opportunities to town targets). That seems like she planned to target Rou the whole game, and tried to get his mislynch. Oh, and I know Serp-Suwako decision point wasn't in lylo, but you get my point, right?
Uh... Kiro is probably town. I really don't think it's probable that he's town, and he was leading the case against UK. Rou is probably town. Explained above, seems like UK was trying to set up his mislynch whole game, etc. K4U is dead. =V
So that leaves Affinity. Large amount of evidence pointing out how he and UK mainly avoided each other, and UK still seemed like she was trying to avoiding a Affinity re-read. And then gave conflicting observations and conclusions regarding Affinity.
So yeah. Waiting for Affinity.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Affinity on October 04, 2009, 10:55:32 PM
So in this case, if I was the Mafia Goon, then Serp would have been the only one available to do the NK on N1 (due to Nietz results). I would like to say in advance that scum would not have any reason to use the one-shot vig to NK before he even vigged, because in this case, it would give him more exposure to being tracked and lynched the next day. Better to give a goon than a vig, in my opinion. Though I think this is a point in my favor, it's probably not enough.
Let me reread the topic, I guess.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 04, 2009, 11:05:25 PM
So in this case, if I was the Mafia Goon, then Serp would have been the only one available to do the NK on N1 (due to Nietz results). I would like to say in advance that scum would not have any reason to use the one-shot vig to NK before he even vigged, because in this case, it would give him more exposure to being tracked and lynched the next day. Better to give a goon than a vig, in my opinion. Though I think this is a point in my favor, it's probably not enough.
The entire point is that they're going to have the hitter be whoever they think is least likely to be tracked. Because he'd said so little, no-one mentioned Serp until D2 when people realised he'd produced surprisingly little, thus it makes sense the mafia would want him to perform the hit. In comparison Affinity was highly verbal, arguing for the Suwako lynch at the end of the day, and therefore a good target for a tracker. Therefore I see no problem with the line of thinking as it stands.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 12:31:32 AM
Vote Count: Completely Unnecessary Edition, Mk. III
Not voting: Everyone!
With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
LYLO.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Affinity on October 05, 2009, 03:12:32 AM
Quote
In comparison Affinity was highly verbal, arguing for the Suwako lynch at the end of the day, and therefore a good target for a tracker. Therefore I see no problem with the line of thinking as it stands.
I disagree with this line of thinking. Many argued for the Suwako lynch strongly anyways, and so did Serp. And you can't tell what trackers are thinking and who they want to investigate. So for all practical reasons, it's better to have the goon do the NK, since both were on the Suwako wagon after all.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Affinity on October 05, 2009, 05:36:18 AM
This is a painful game for me, and probably one of my worst since GWU or something. But now, let's see what I can do.
First up, my Kiro case is indeed weakened considerably since I misinterpreted this sentence from this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg105919#msg105919)
Quote
In essence, lack of true scumhunting and just settles on the case that can only make sense to him due to his claimed role.
... which I thought was talking about Serp on D3, but was actually talking about his D4 actions. So I have to concede that in the end, though there were some juts and changes in reasoning from day to day, they are apparently justified. However, this change (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg101836#msg101836) still seems a little awkward. But judging that he spearheaded the lynches on Serp and UK on D4 and D5, I think my case on him yesterday was not exactly correct.
---
Roukanken is my new primary suspect for today. While the constant UK bus works with him, I notice that her case is mostly lazy and static and that Rou's responses to them were mainly non-existent, without much town-town or town-scum vigor. For example, this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89946#msg89946) in day one does not respond to Uk's vote. Neither does this happen for D2 (though he responds to mine with vigor) or D3, which is odd, and so I'm quite confident in saying that the cred he gets from UK voting him is quite insignificant. This, coupled with hasty D4 play, useless D2, and such, makes me think he's the last scum.
---
I've got nothing on Sodium. I don't think he's that good excluding bandwagon analysis, but he's descent though not detailed, and has fairly consistent opinions. With bandwagon analysis, he's pretty much in the clear considering that VgT OMGUSed him on D1 and etc.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Affinity on October 05, 2009, 08:29:31 AM
@mod:
Could you help me fix the above post?
Kay.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 05, 2009, 11:05:21 AM
Quote
I disagree with this line of thinking. Many argued for the Suwako lynch strongly anyways, and so did Serp. And you can't tell what trackers are thinking and who they want to investigate. So for all practical reasons, it's better to have the goon do the NK, since both were on the Suwako wagon after all.
This is assuming that you were a goon and not, say, the godfather.
Roukanken is my new primary suspect for today. While the constant UK bus works with him, I notice that her case is mostly lazy and static and that Rou's responses to them were mainly non-existent, without much town-town or town-scum vigor. For example, this post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=2250.msg89946#msg89946) in day one does not respond to Uk's vote. Neither does this happen for D2 (though he responds to mine with vigor) or D3, which is odd, and so I'm quite confident in saying that the cred he gets from UK voting him is quite insignificant. This, coupled with hasty D4 play, useless D2, and such, makes me think he's the last scum.
I didn't really respond to UK on Day 1 because in a lot of ways she was just agreeing with Umu, who I actually was responding to. Plus I spent a good deal of the day pre-Suwako trying to argue that her gutclear of Anthony looked pretty bad, which I'm willing to argue isn't scumbuddy play on D1 with VgT already up in the air. And also, most of her case against me didn't go beyond 'he did X which is scummy'. There wasn't really much for me to respond with, so I went for the old 'best defense = good offense' adage.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Kiro on October 05, 2009, 04:45:18 PM
Didn't quite finish another reread last night, but a few things I saw again with the UK flip on hand convinced me Rou and UK were not Scum bussing each other. It's not conclusive, but it really gives me a strong feeling that they weren't bussing.
UK chose Rou over VgT in #108. Thus, if she intended to hard bus between two Scum, it was set really early. But it just doesn't seem like she treats both as Scum because she spends a lot of time going after Rou and commenting far less on VgT early on. Her #145 says both Sodium and Rou are swaying in the wind. For such a simple short comment, my impression of that is she lumped two Townies together as suspicious waffles rather than just one Town, one Scum (since both can't be Scum this game). And in UK #189, UK says she may be willing to go for VgT but still likes the Rou vote. Once again, she's staying on Rou and this would be the most incredible double bus I've ever seen if Rou is indeed Scum. It really looks more like a long planned mislynch attempt because she eventually relents on her suspicion to vote VgT. She does this in Day 1, but not in Day 3 when Serp/Suwako happened.
Just to look at a few things on Rou's side, Rou's #149 listed a scumlist of Anthony, UK, VgT, and Kilga. Putting his hypothetical buddies at #2 and #3 would be risky for him as Scum as the game was still really early and the momentum could have easily shifted to either of them. Also, Rou's infamous list at #228 has VgT at #6, but also UK at #3. Doesn't really seem to fit a pattern of Scum bussing since he puts the people he has strong feelings for correctly imo. And finally, the long argument between Rou and UK afterwards reads as genuine arguing. This also conveniently enough is after UK votes VgT pretty much cementing her status as bussing VgT and she starts to pick at Rou for all the little things that he ends up missing about VgT. Doesn't read as Scum to Scum arguing.
---
Affinity: If that's all you've really got, I don't think it's enough to clear you. From my point of view, Sodium and Rou can't be Scum so it has to be you and you've done enough suspicious things to make it justifiable.
##Vote Affinity
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 05, 2009, 04:55:25 PM
Unless Affinity has anything else that he's intending to say in his defense, I'm more or less ready to vote for him at any time. I don't think we need 7 days for this one, honestly...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Sodium on October 05, 2009, 09:03:39 PM
Yeah, this day is essentially "Present your case and defenses". Which is fine and dandy, but we don't need 7 days for this, seeing as we've all done it in about a day. Don't see Rou or Kiro as scum, so:
##Vote Affinity
I think we've pretty much hit the peak of this game. No point in dragging it out...
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 09:09:48 PM
Affinity is at L-1.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 05, 2009, 09:36:40 PM
Oh forget it. Even if Affinity is Town he's more or less given up by now.
##Hammer Vote: Affinity
Alright then, Kiro, Sodium, whichever one of you it is that's been screwing with me all game. Start laughing. T_T
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 09:39:33 PM
HAMMER SHUT UP
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 09:46:53 PM
Edible's been idle on IRC for over three and a half hours and I have no idea when he will return and I don't want to make people wait so I'll wait for only a few minutes to see if he responds and if not I'll go ahead and update.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 09:47:59 PM
in before edible
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 09:48:28 PM
Vote Count: Way To Go Affinity (3): Kiro, Sodium, Roukanken
Affinity, playing Minoriko Aki, Extra-Tasty Vanilla Townie, was served to and devoured by the moderator, alongside a healthy portion of butter and bacon bits.
I'm at work, Kilga <3
And yeah, I'm calling it here. Scum wins.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 09:49:16 PM
Sodium, thought to be playing Sariel, but really playing Dave Grohl (Mafia Goon) was some dude I've never heard of! But he won the game! So good for him.
Scum win! Town lose! Massive Fail!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Pesco on October 05, 2009, 09:50:59 PM
Oi why not give them the night WIFOM >:(
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 05, 2009, 09:51:27 PM
Oh for the
Title: Re: INVASION! (Day 6) - No Cats, Men Only, Final Destination
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
Congrats, Sodium!
You are...
[size=8]THE BEST![/size]
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 05, 2009, 09:54:39 PM
Good job Sodium.
Def Scum MVP
I really should have thrown Serpy away the same way I did VgT...I guess I was a little soft on him :(.
Good game all. Honestly Rou, your suspicions weren't that far off earlier, but I had to discredit you somehow.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Nietz on October 05, 2009, 09:54:54 PM
Pffff
I had Sodium under some suspicions for being to quick in the Serp lynch, but nowhere near as much as Rou.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 09:55:35 PM
For a number of reasons. One of them was scum outplayed town so hard this game that it was kind of depressing. Another is I turned off UK's power for psuedo LYLO, so it was really fair.
Edit: Or not. Well, I had mostly come to this decision long before LYLO anyway.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 09:58:14 PM
Big thanks to Kilga for stepping in as comod.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 05, 2009, 09:58:25 PM
Is it a bad sign if I feel like I'm going to be physically ill?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Pesco on October 05, 2009, 09:58:57 PM
Post up the details so I can update the archive
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Sodium on October 05, 2009, 10:00:00 PM
Wait, what? But I sent you the NK for Kiro.
Oh, I was the one that called for Pesco Night Kill. Should I post the QT?
Sorry Rou. =V
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 10:01:44 PM
Quote
12 townies 4 mafia
Townie power roles 1) Kiro (Celebrity) Good evening, Shinki. As the mistress of Makai, you are responsible for many denizens - why, then, would you be helping Gensokyo in its hour of need? The answer is simple. You're really goddamn bored. When's the last time you showed up in a game? Christ.
While you are aligned with the town, you have no intention of seeing yourself perish. You are a Celebrity, after all. Once per night, you must select another player - your ahoge will apply temporary hypnosis, causing them to act as a shield against any potential attacks on your person. Of course, it also means they die in your stead. This power has two charges, and must be used every night. A charge is only used if you are targeted at night for a kill, and will have no effect during the day - you are not immune to lynches.
You win with the Town. Best of luck!
2) Nietz (Tracker) Good evening, Yorihime. Gensokyo hasn't done you any favors, yet you're helping them out anyway because Eirin asked very nicely. Aww. You don't get much flavor text because the series you're from is pretty boring.
You are a town-aligned Tracker. Once per night, you may target another player to see whom else they targeted that evening. You may use this ability up to three times during the game.
You win with the Town. Best of luck!
3) pesco (Doctor) Good evening, Tewi. You've spent enough time around Eirin to know a thing or two about medicine, but being a trickster rabbit, you also know it can have some very unsettling side effects... which you might just use to your advantage, given you stole a bunch of medicine from Eientei before getting roped into this scum-hunting business.
You are a town-aligned Kevorkian Doc. You can use your medicine to attempt to save one person per night, or you may stuff all of it in their mouths to end their pathetic existence. Note that if you do the latter, you can't heal anyone else - you're out of medicine! Unfortunately, you're not skilled enough to heal yourself - nor are you capable of healing the same target consecutively. Finally, you only have enough patience to protect someone three times.
You win with the town. Best of luck!
4) Kilgamayan (vt) Good evening, Aya. You are firmly opposed to the Internet as a whole, because it means the Bunbunmaru would quickly go out of circulation - and then you'd be out of a job. You happen to be a Town-aligned Townie Town Townie, With a Side Of Town. Your abilities are Being Town. Throughout the game, you may (if you choose) publically declare that you are Town. Whether anyone believes you is completely up to them, but you certainly do have that option!
You win with the Town. Best of luck!
5) Zakeri (5 magic stones) Good evening, 5 Magic Stones. You were wandering around Gensokyo one d- wait you're a bunch of rocks, you don't wander. You were... sitting around Gensokyo one day, when you thou- okay, you're a bunch of rocks, you aren't sentient. You were sitting around Gensokyo one day, when someone came to you and sa- ... OKAY SERIOUSLY DO YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT ME TO WRITE FLAVOR TEXT FOR THIS FOR FUCK'S SAKE I QUIT
You are a Bunch Of Fucking Rocks. You don't do much of anything, but you DO win with the town! Best of luck.
6) Kitten4U (Yumemi) The power of Science compels you! Gensokyo is an important place of study for you, and you're reluctant to let it go to the Internet dogs. Unfortunately, your great power has diminished since you didn't show up in UFO, so you are only a Vanilla Townie.
You are a Vanilla Townie. You win with the Town. Best of luck!
7) u? (Koishi Komeiji) uu~
You are Koishi Komeiji, and you are capable of making cute noises! Cute noises are cute, but that's all they are - you're basically just Vanilla Town. Way to go.
You are a vanilla cute-noise-making townie. You win with the Town. Best of luck!
8) Roukanken (Nitori)
Kappapa Kappapa Roukanken, you live in Europe don't you, Roukanken? Singing this role PM to your character's theme is fairly difficult, so I'm just going to go offbeat and say that you're Vanilla Townie.
You are a Vanilla Townie. You win with the town. Best of luck!
9) Angel Milk (Tenshi Hinanai)
You are Tenshi Hinanai, and you love to get your ass kicked in Gensokyo. What right do these internet goons have to invade on your private masochism playground?
That said, you have no special ability or power, but you DO win with the town. You are, therefore, a Vanilla Townie. Best of luck!
10) Evil Magnum Anthony (Mima)
You are Mima, dead person haunting the Hakurei Shrine. You would probably be better off if anyone actually paid attention to you, or if you showed up in games anymore... but alas, you aren't. Behold, your power is that of the Vanilla Townie! ... which means you can't do much at all.
You are a Vanilla Townie. You win with the town. Best of luck!
11) Affinity (Minoriko Aki)
Mmm... baked potato.
Er, I mean. You are a Delicious Vanilla Townie, which is almost exactly like a regular Vanilla Townie except far more tasty.
You win with the town. Best of luck!
12) Suwako Moriya (Suwako Moriya)
Ribbit.
You are a Vanilla Townie. You win with the town. Best of luck!
Scum 1) Serpentarius Good evening, Remilia... or should I say, Remirya?
You have come from the Internet to Take It Easy?, but it's hard to take it easy when Sakuya isn't constantly around to tend to your every need. You have therefore decided to focus your delicious meat-filled rage on slaying everyone who isn't Sakuya. Which is to say, every Townie.
You are a mafia-aligned Remirya-type yukkuri. Once per game (at night) you may scream for Sakuya, who will swiftly and mercilessly end the existence of the last person who bullied (read: voted) you. Note that this power can only work in two circumstances: 1) The person you select had an active vote on you when the Day ended, and 2) It must not be a LYLO situation (IE, you cannot use this power along with a night kill to win instantly).
You win with the Mafia. Best of luck!
2) UncertainKitten Good evening, Orin... or should I say, Takoluka?
You are an adorable octopus thing, and expected to be treated with kindness and love upon entering Gensokyo. Unfortunately, every stupid bastard is trying to eat you, so you decided to team up with these other oddities and are out for vengeance.
You are a mafia-aligned votestopper. Once per night, you may shoot ink at a player, rendering their votes invalid the following day. You may only do this to a specific player once per game, and your power becomes inactive in a LYLO situation.
You win with the Mafia. Best of luck!
3) VGameT Good evening, Unzan... or should I say, Unzan?
Wait, what? You're not an invader from the Internet. Why are you scum? Oh, that's right - it's because you hate Gensokyo and want it to die. As the only freaky cloud thing around, you find it's difficult to reproduce... and this has made you a very very angry brofist.
You are a mafia-aligned goon. You win with the Mafia. Best of luck!
4) Eliphas Good evening, Sariel... or should I say, Dave Grohl?
You are THE BEST, and you have come to Gensokyo to be THE BEST and spread THE BEST knowledge about THE BEST song in the world. It is in THE BEST interest to THE BEST with THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST. You are a mafia-aligned hairy vocalist. You are a Mafia goon. You win with the Mafia. Best of luck!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 10:02:35 PM
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 10:12:05 PM
N1 Kiro targets Anthony (no result) Pesco targets Zakeri (no result) Nietz targets Affinity (no result) Sodium targets u? (dead) UK targets Anthony (votestopped)
N2 Kiro targets Serpentarius (no result) Pesco targets Kiro (no result) Serpentarius targets Zakeri (dead) Nietz targets Serpentarius (targeted Zakeri) Sodium targets Kilgamayan (dead) UK targets Suwako Moriya (votestopped)
N3 Pesco targets Nietz (no result) Kiro targets Affinity (no result) Nietz targets UK (no result) Serpentarius targets Pesco (dead)
N4 Sodium targets Nietz (dead) Kiro targets Affinity (no result)
N5 Sodium targets K4U (dead) Kiro targets Affinity (no result)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 10:13:32 PM
[18:38:17] <Shoukan> oh god no [18:38:25] <Shoukan> WHY DIDN'T I LISTEN TO KILGA
Taken out of context, but a very appropriate theme of what transpired in this topic.
This game was utterly miserable and everyone other than the Town MVP (will be named later) that was alive on Day 3 should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. What the hell happened out there? Every single scum was dropping tells left and right and you pursued the most obvious townie in the game? I've already berated Suwako for stupidly encouraging town's pursuit of her but that doesn't dismiss the rest of you from being so God-awfully stupid.
This game was so bad I had actually written out a length ragequit post at the end of Day 3 that took more than half the game to task on a personal level. While I've since calmed down and won't be posting I am still giving consideration to just giving up. I don't know what else to do. I handed you scum on a silver platter and gave you an incredibly obvious townie and you lynched the latter the instant I died. Letting you figure things out by yourselves didn't work. Holding you by the hand and guiding you through the game didn't work. I am out of ideas. This game was worse than EoSD and I have no clue how to rectify it. I'm going to seriously mull over joining the next game because I don't know if it's worth the effort.
Never play like that again.
Fuck.
Town MVP: K4U, because I feel bad giving it to myself and you played a hell of a game. Keep at it, I'm pleasantly surprised with what I've seen of you so far. It's a shame your beacon of common sense was swallowed up by the darkness of retardation.
Scum MVP: Affinity, because no scum played with any quality comparable to "good". Holy fuck what happened to you. You really earned that LYLO mislynch, and I'm hoping you feel the same way because it'll encourage you never to play this badly again. Honorable mentions go to Kiro and Suwako for supremely fucking up Day 3. The three of you make me sadder than anything else, because I hold all of you in very high regard and what I saw transpire on Day 3 was MS-level play.
---
On a related note, I got to watch a pesco/UK/Roukan three-way BDSM cybersex session play out during Day 6 LYLO, which leans me slightly toward playing again just so I can read their posts in this new light.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - I Hate You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 10:15:54 PM
On a related note, I got to watch a pesco/UK/Roukan three-way BDSM cybersex session play out during Day 6 LYLO, which leans me slightly toward playing again just so I can read their posts in this new light.
asdfjoasdifjaosdifj what
Nevermind I don't want to know.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 10:19:38 PM
I will say that the Suwako pursuit was more her fault than the rest of town's. Situational clears are good, but her play was arguably the worst I've ever seen someone play town here.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 05, 2009, 10:21:10 PM
Ah well. I got to abuse the swing vote tell. I'm quite happy with that ^-^
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Pesco on October 05, 2009, 10:22:21 PM
I will say that the Suwako pursuit was more her fault than the rest of town's. Situational clears are good, but her play was arguably the worst I've ever seen someone play town here.
It is not Suwako's fault that everyone ignored Seprentarius claim that one should ignore flips when scum hunting. There was nothing scummier than that at any point in this game. Period. Serp really should have been lynched Day 2, and I partly blame myself for not pushing harder, but when Day 3 came and both Zakeri and I flipped town that should have been a two hour lynch, three tops.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 10:31:35 PM
Setup was larger than we usually play, so I threw several potential killing roles into the mix - all limited. Kiro's was the gimmick role that never activated (to my chagrin), Pesco's was the utility role that never activated (to his chagrin), Serp's was the one that required him to play poorly in order to secure votes at the end of the day (to his chagrin).
Votestopper was a very interesting role to see used.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 05, 2009, 10:34:43 PM
I have been told to post this, and I'll probably regret it later when I'm less RAEG. (Also if I don't Pesco's promised to do it anyway, so yeah.)
Quote
Roukanken (23:31:56): Hell Roukanken (23:32:03): I think EVERYONE who fucked up should quit Roukanken (23:32:06): Serp should quit Roukanken (23:32:09): VgT should quit Roukanken (23:32:14): Affinity should quit Roukanken (23:32:22): Tenshi and Anthony I NEVER WANT TO SEE PLAY MAFIA AGAIN Roukanken (23:32:38): And I want Suwako to be FROZEN ALIVE AND SHATTERED INTO A MILLION PIECES.
So yeah, right now I sort of want to shoot half of you and then shoot myself. T_T
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Pesco on October 05, 2009, 10:36:06 PM
Yuyuko's Kitchen had a voteblocker. But you guys just said No Lynch until it went away :(
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Sodium on October 05, 2009, 10:44:21 PM
Kiro really wasn't a threat this game. He cemented himself as town and then killed a lot of scum, but that was during LYLO, so yeah. Too little too late.
Affinity... uh yeah. You dug a bunch of holes for explosives, then detonated them on yourself at LYLO.
Rou likes digging holes, but never falls into them. =V
Pesco: Sorry about Night Killing you.
Kilga: Sorry about Night Killing you. Only did it because we thought you would be obvtown once Serp died. We were planning for Serp to die Day 3, but...
Suwako that played this game: Uh, avoid pissing off town next time in your message of "short and sweet" posts.
Kitten4u: Best Townie. There's a reason why you were picked over Kiro on Night 5.
Nietz: Sorry bout killing you
Angel Milk: Please don't be inactive.
Anthony: Sorry Bro. You did better then me in my first game, imo. You just need to communicate yourself better.
umu: Sorry, hopefully you'll get past Day 1 next game.
Zak: ...I forgot you were in this game. Sorry. =V
Oh, and Rou, VGT was a really good sacrifice for the scum team. So was Serp, really.
And Seniwac: Thanks for handling Day 1 well.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: ?lice Bl?ckb?rn on October 05, 2009, 10:47:58 PM
Watched this game from the sidelines, which started turning into basically a spectator sport around the time this game went into full-on Idiot Tennis(TM) mode. I still cannot believe that: A) Serpentarius was not insta-lynched for his claim that we should ignore information gathered from flips. B) Suwako was lynched over Serp, and all the decrying over "one piece of circumstantial evidence"...what you are implying is that scum DELIBERATELY tried to get COMPETING SCUM WAGONS on D1 and then have someone play so deliberately badly that they would be lynched? This is nonsense and everyone here knows it. Come on guys, seriously. What the fuck. C) For that matter, generally all the play here. Tenshi, I never want to see you play mafia ever again. Good fucking christ. The only people I can say played decently (D3 onwards - D1/D2 play was mostly passable minus the Tenshi modkill clusterfuck - Edible, did you really have to decide to make that decision less than 5 hours before deadline? Why? Seriously, why? I want to know why it could not have been done sooner, at a time when Town could possibly have reacted to it, and like, ya know, lynched Serp instead of Anthony) were K4U, and Kiro D5 onwards (your D3/D4 play was some of the shittiest I've ever seen, though, please do not ever repeat that ever again, good christ). Seconding the Scum MVP award to Affinity.
This game read like a trainwreck. At some points, I thought Scum was certain to win because FOR FUCK'S SAKE WHY DID IT TAKE YOU GUYS THAT BLOODY LONG TO LYNCH SERPENTARIUS AFTER ALL OF THE VERY PAINFULLY OBVIOUSLY BULLSHIT HE FED YOU GUYS FOR MOST OF THE GAME SO FAR?!? At other points, it actually seemed as if Scum wanted to throw the game, they were playing almost incomprehensibly badly.
Jesus fuck guys. I never want to see another game played like this, ever again. At the rate some of you were going, shittily-coded probabalistic models of Mafia Play hooked up to a MegaHAL would probably perform better. Or probably even just randomly voting someone every day. Who knows. This game was terrible in every way, shape and form pretty much, and you all should feel bad. Never drop down to this level of play ever again or I will lose whatever respect I had developed from you guys from my 1.5 years playing mafia on this site.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 05, 2009, 10:50:52 PM
Wow, N1 Kiro kill woulda been horrible. How hilarious.
Nothing about your buddies Sodium?
And seriously, I'm sorry about doing that wall against you Affinity...but I had to roll with the obv scum buddy at that juncture so finding you clean was the best way to encourage it.
Quote
Jesus fuck guys. I never want to see another game played like this, ever again. At the rate some of you were going, shittily-coded probabalistic models of Mafia Play hooked up to a MegaHAL would probably perform better. Or probably even just randomly voting someone every day. Who knows. This game was terrible in every way, shape and form pretty much, and you all should feel bad. Never drop down to this level of play ever again or I will lose whatever respect I had developed from you guys from my 1.5 years playing mafia on this site.
You had respect for us?
At any rate, yeah, game was trainwreck. To be fair, I was playing decently til I got terminally bored. Which was QUITE early on. Not really proud of this win, but more proud of it than I could ever be of Bamboo forest.
But not by much. Essentially, this is barely a step above that.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 10:51:56 PM
Edible, did you really have to decide to make that decision less than 5 hours before deadline? Why? Seriously, why? I want to know why it could not have been done sooner, at a time when Town could possibly have reacted to it, and like, ya know, lynched Serp instead of Anthony
I'm not from a planet where the announcement of a modkill would cause town to magically go after a person with no votes. I didn't even consider they would go after Serp instead of Anthony, and I haven't the slightest idea how you came to that conclusion.
Finally, the modkill was not meant to benefit town at all and I don't see why you think it should have.
(But to answer your question, it was not done sooner because it was still within the 24 hour replacement window. I actually cut it a little short to do the modkill.)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Pesco on October 05, 2009, 10:57:43 PM
I still re-iterate that modkills are punishments. If you hand one out as a punishment measure it must be clear that it's a punishment.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 11:00:31 PM
I tried to make it as neutral as possible, tbh. Town doesn't deserve to get punished or rewarded for one person's shitty/absent play; same holds true for scum. Day-ending modkill would have given scum a free kill since Town would have gone after Anthony the next day. Non-day-ending modkill would have given Town insight they didn't deserve. Thus, the day-end modkill compromise.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Sodium on October 05, 2009, 11:02:51 PM
UK: Nyeh, you know I appreciate you guys letting me bus you guys. Because I really had no real case against any actual town except for Rou(which was destroyed) and Affinity at the end(which was "me too!").
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Kitten4u on October 05, 2009, 11:03:53 PM
...Didn't see that coming. ;_; Looking back we really should have lynched Serp D2 and I'm pretty sad that he was only my second choice. I'm still not totally dissapointed with how I played though (esspecially since this is only the second game I've completed from beginning to end). Good job Sodium, I wouldn't have guessed that the last scum was you.
Quote from: Kilga
Town MVP: K4U, because I feel bad giving it to myself and you played a hell of a game. Keep at it, I'm pleasantly surprised with what I've seen of you so far. It's a shame your beacon of common sense was swallowed up by the darkness of retardation.
Quote from: Sodium
Kitten4u: Best Townie. There's a reason why you were picked over Kiro on Night 5.
But this makes me feel awesome. Thanks guys. <3
I don't think I'll play in the next game due to time constraints.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Sodium on October 05, 2009, 11:11:18 PM
Oh yeah, why the hell didn't anyone find me suspicious for being on EVERY SINGLE SCUM WAGON? Kiro, Rou, and Affinity all were on at least 1 mislynch, which is more townie like then me of all people to correctly vote every scum. My switch to UK was horribad too, as I didn't even project any hints to actually voting UK, except saying that "tunneling is BAD. Rou's obvscum btw". My vote for Serp consisted of "lolobvscum for what other people said". What happened to good old fashioned, looking at reasons for votes?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Pesco on October 05, 2009, 11:14:27 PM
I've asked for IP to be given to both of you. K4U for her good play and Sodium for his improvement over the recent games. The higher ups disagree though :/.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 11:14:58 PM
Oh yeah, why the hell didn't anyone find me suspicious for being on EVERY SINGLE SCUM WAGON? Kiro, Rou, and Affinity all were on at least 1 mislynch, which is more townie like then me of all people to correctly vote every scum. My switch to UK was horribad too, as I didn't even project any hints to actually voting UK, except saying that "tunneling is BAD. Rou's obvscum btw". My vote for Serp consisted of "lolobvscum for what other people said". What happened to good old fashioned, looking at reasons for votes?
I call it SPOTS, or Smallest Pile Of Trash Syndrome.
I've asked for IP to be given to both of you. K4U for her good play and Sodium for his improvement over the recent games. The higher ups disagree though :/.
I'm fine with K4U getting one.
Sodium's not getting one for the same reason you don't treat the lone student to score a 30 on a test to ice cream when everyone else scored a 15.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: WHMZakeri on October 05, 2009, 11:23:47 PM
Things I noticed this game -
-Being a bunch of Rocks is more fun than I thought. -I'm never taking Mafia advice from a frog ever again. -I'm glad I died night 2, because I doubt I really could play for my alignment in this game. Suwako Deserved to get Lynched for his play, even though he had a solid confirmed townie position. -This also makes this the second game I attacked Serpentarius for something he did that was legitimately and obviously Pro-Mafia intentioned and got ignored for a shittier case. -It's really nice how there's only one single endgame comment directed towards me, and it's that "I forgot you were playing" :< -It really wasn't nice that people actually bought me as a legitimate Vig target for a while -I always thought it was incredibly cute how day after day, Roukanken's first post almost always included "Well, shoot. I was in the middle of making a case on <NK Target>."
Not much else I can remember. This game was good for laughs, but boring and disappointing otherwise.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Edible on October 05, 2009, 11:27:22 PM
@Zak: You were vigged because Serp's role required someone to have a vote on him at the end of the day.
This game is all the proof I need that 16-player games are bad news around these parts.
Any comments/criticisms re: game balance I should be aware of?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 05, 2009, 11:30:49 PM
Quote
UK: Nyeh, you know I appreciate you guys letting me bus you guys. Because I really had no real case against any actual town except for Rou(which was destroyed) and Affinity at the end(which was "me too!").
Haha, that's great
Quote
This game is all the proof I need that 16-player games are bad news around these parts.
Not necessarily, I just get pissy about em.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 05, 2009, 11:32:11 PM
-I'm never taking Mafia advice from a frog ever again.
It's worth noting that I also stand by that Day 1 philosophy. You're welcome to disagree, but I'll point you at which of us was voting for town and which of us was voting for scum.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: WHMZakeri on October 05, 2009, 11:38:45 PM
@Zak: You were vigged because Serp's role required someone to have a vote on him at the end of the day.
I know. I was just ticked that everyone bought that he had a legitimate reason for vigging me (besides what the truth was, anyway).
Quote
It's worth noting that I also stand by that Day 1 philosophy. You're welcome to disagree, but I'll point you at which of us was voting for town and which of us was voting for scum.
I didn't say you were wrong. Just Suwako. Edit: This is in reference to the day one playstyle, not to whom was voting for whom.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Serp on October 05, 2009, 11:39:43 PM
Yeah, when UK and Eliphas bussed VgameT, I figured I could afford to make a somewhat crummy switch onto Suwako and earn a vote that I could use for my ability, but when Kilga jumped right on me early D2, I panicked and went into full damage control mode. From the beginning of D2, I was playing under the assumption that I was going to be lynched, and rather than playing to survive, I was just worried about not connecting myself to UncertainKitten and Sodium. That was a poor strategic decision.
As to game balance and such, I think that most of this rage against 16 player games is just confirmation bias. As long as everyone is reasonably concise (i.e. not quite to Suwako levels), it should remain manageable. A high prevalence of potential vig roles is good in that regard as well. Though, if people heed all this bitching and actually quit, we probably won't have the playerbase to have another game this big anytime soon regardless.
I suggest that we hold off the start of the next game for a week or two so that everyone has a chance to cool down.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Vibri on October 05, 2009, 11:42:13 PM
I more or less stopped reading the thread after I died so I don't know the specifics but seriously how did we win lmfao
ultra mafia rage itt sorry for playing so bad usually I don't play so bad. I have never done good on these forums. gonna blame the environment
edit: also I kept running into kiro on tenhou during this game and I thought it was funny because I bet we were both thinking "shouldn't you be playing mafia right now? come on, man"
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: Affinity on October 05, 2009, 11:59:47 PM
Don't worry, I got food poisoning on Day 6 IRL and got diahorrea, which is probably my just desserts. I wasn't finished yet though, and wanted to point out that Eliphas' switch to VgT on D1 was stupidly sudden, but I had to sleep off the stomache. Aha, who cares. Seriously, my very first game here is far better than this one. Kind of feel like a douche, am very sorry to town. I think Roukanken played really well towards the end, and ah.
I think this shows the weakness of the majority of MoTK mafia to handwaving too scummy to be scum play. To be honest, my vote against Suwako all game was more because of emotional irritance as opposed to really finding him scummy, which bleh, all the more makes me feel bad. I don't think I was able to think straight all game either. Suwako, though, please cooperate with people more.
K4U, you are unexpectedly awesome this game; almost on the level of FAV but more succinct and less obviously town. I honestly don't mind people suspecting me because really, I deserved it. Gosh, I think I was better off playing this game with an RNG connected to a tub of vanilla ice cream. Sorry guys. Setup is balanced and enjoyable in my opinion. But really, shit. Reading the QT is also embarassing.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 06, 2009, 12:02:18 AM
Quote
Gosh, I think I was better off playing this game with an RNG connected to a tub of vanilla ice cream.
Remind me to play like this sometime.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over) - Kilgamayan Hates You All
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 06, 2009, 01:05:18 AM
Okay, an hour away and this thread is still making me rage.
I'll start by apologising for basically collapsing into a pile of goo somewhere in the middle of day 3. In my defense, I'd been looking to replace since Day 1 but after Eliphas swapped out there were no replacements left.
I know for a fact that I'm basically going nuts over this game. It's not an exaggeration when I say that after I saw Suwako flip Town, I literally lay on the floor in the foetal position for about 20 minutes. It's because this game is pretty much all I have to do in my free time at university since there's nothing in the city, don't get on well with my roommates and I wasn't allowed to bring consoles.
I passed Sodium off too far on the VgT positioning, I'll admit that. Nothing I can do but be more aware of it and stop giving people free passes, but it didn't help that Affinity was such a good target at LYLO.
Finally...I have no idea what to say to Kilga other than that I'm deeply, truly ashamed of how I played this round. As in 'I think I'm a worse person for screwing up so badly' levels of ashamed. Because this game means so much to me, messing up hits doubly hard, and I haven't put a foot right in about 4 games here. >_>
And because of that, as well as he intends it to be, I'd like to disagree with Serp's suggestion to hold the next game off for a week. The longer I spend feeling like an honourary scum over this game, the worse I'll play next round. I know I said that I was going to /out, but I just can't sit back and let people write me off as a loser.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Scum Win)
Post by: Kiro on October 06, 2009, 02:02:15 AM
What I want to know before I read all the postgame is why I didn't get a chance to shoot Sodium?
He was my secondary if Affinity flipped Town this game.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Scum Win)
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 06, 2009, 02:05:55 AM
For a number of reasons. One of them was scum outplayed town so hard this game that it was kind of depressing. Another is I turned off UK's power for psuedo LYLO, so it was really fair.
I had discussed this with Kilga when I made him comod, actually. As this was real honest-to-goodness LYLO, I felt scum shouldn't have needed to declare a kill in order to win if there was a mislynch.
My apologies for not informing you of this beforehand.
(Actually, Rou, he would have picked Kiro.)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Scum Win)
Post by: WHMZakeri on October 06, 2009, 02:10:26 AM
Yeah, Quicktopic says he picked Kiro, and Kiro says he would have picked Sodium, so ... This actually would have been town's game if the mods didn't call it.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Scum Win)
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 06, 2009, 02:19:05 AM
Yeah, honestly, I actually wouldn't have called it scum's game when day ended because of that. Technically Kiro could prevent the victory.
But if you decided that before hand, well, it's a little fairer.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Edible on October 06, 2009, 02:20:38 AM
Topic updated to reflect who REALLY won this game! <3
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 06, 2009, 02:26:00 AM
Topic updated to reflect who REALLY won this game! <3
I'm still counting it as my win :P.
I had fun.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Sodium on October 06, 2009, 02:32:09 AM
FUCK YEAH! Kilga and Edible won!
*Flavor of how Zombie KilgAYA and Edible BANNED EVERYONE FOR THEIR INSOLENCE here*
Oh, and I flipped a coin to decide. =3 I assumed that there was no way that town could stop a NK because Edible outright said LYLO instead of Pseudo-Lylo. Yay RWoS telling me to pay attention to this type of stuff.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Scum Win)
Post by: Kiro on October 06, 2009, 02:33:17 AM
*shrug*
How I saw Day 6 was that there was too much wrong with Affinity and I think I was partially scared that if I tried to drum up a case on Sodium and be wrong, then I'd be berated just as bad for missing the "obvious" lynch. It's illogically stupid to worry about such things though so yea, failure there. I saw the possibility, mainly with what Affinity said that why would they send the Scum Vig to do the NK and I really should have just seized on that. UK also clearing Affinity in Day 5 should have been another giveaway that I just put on as a bad feeling, but I didn't want to WIFOM it too much. In essence, it came down to Affinity bringing up a good case to change my mind and when he went back to Rou, I just wrote off his bad play as scummy.
And as much as I can accept Kilga berating us and he's perfectly fine to do that, I'm suddenly really pissed that Alice intends to take the high ground on this as well when he had no involvement in this game whatsoever. I don't fucking care if you guys talk about this game in an iRC channel that I don't bother going to or don't intend to join because I don't want to pop into the middle of a potential discussion about the game, but I don't see you offering any constructive advice for those of us who failed other than, "don't do that again." I think it's that last paragraph of yours that really pisses me off. I don't need some fancy analogy for you to drive in how bad I and a few others played. Are you TRYING to piss me off?
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 06, 2009, 02:42:46 AM
Quote
UK also clearing Affinity in Day 5 should have been another giveaway that I just put on as a bad feeling, but I didn't want to WIFOM it too much.
I knew I took a risk doing that, but I figured it'd pay off with WIFOM. It cemented the desparateness of me trying to keep Rou as a viable lynch :P
And I agree with Kiro, etc.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Kiro on October 06, 2009, 03:11:00 AM
P.S. Sorry Affinity. You're probably feeling this the worst. I shouldn't have voted you after just one statement and taken the time to explore the potential towntells that I listed above. So I didn't give you a chance and that makes me want to take more of the brunt for this loss considering I also swinged the vote from Serp to Suwako. Didn't know you were feeling sick either.
Time for my postgame drink. I'll take a drink for you as well. Let's share the Honorary Scum MVP.
---
And Rou, I thought you redeemed yourself well enough in the end. Or whatever there was left to redeem I guess since we chose the same Day 5 targets, one right one wrong. I won't criticize you for anything because trust me, I'm feeling the same as well.
And yo VgT, yea, I'm always chuckling when I see you on Tenhou because of exactly that thought that runs in your head half the time, "Shouldn't Kiro be playing Mafia right now?"
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Kiro on October 06, 2009, 03:29:59 AM
And good game Scum.
Serp's wild accusation worked on me, UK's was a bit obvious, but I didn't follow up on it so I guess that also counts as working. And Eliphas/Sodium actively bussed 2 Scum, smooth enough. Can never underestimate that again.
Kilga was right so the frustration he felt by the end of Day 3 I'm sure is more than what the rest of living Town felt that Day. Sorry Kilgamayan.
Comments about everybody else is standard fare depending on the person. I still don't think we should restrict new players from joining. We still ought to be an open and somewhat loose collection of players so let's encourage people to try it out, rage with us in game, and then just shrug it off and play the next.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Edible on October 06, 2009, 03:32:42 AM
I still don't think we should restrict new players from joining.
Agreed. This was K4U's second game or something and she played fine. TBH, I'm fine with Anthony too - he could very easily improve.
It's players like Tenshi who very clearly have no interest in playing in the first place that I have a problem with. Or players who repeatedly show absolutely no improvement over multiple games.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Kitten4u on October 06, 2009, 03:42:28 AM
Ooh, shiny blue name. :3 Thanks. <3
And this is the second game I've completed from start to finish, the first being the other one I played here. My first game was ruined D1 and I also replaced into an obv scum posistion in another game, made a grand total of about eight posts and was rightfully lynched.
So yeah, I still consider myself a newbie and the comments post game are making me feel awesome. <3 :P
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: UncertainJakutten on October 06, 2009, 03:43:24 AM
Quote
It's players like Tenshi who very clearly have no interest in playing in the first place that I have a problem with. Or players who repeatedly show absolutely no improvement over multiple games.
/me sneezes
Now that's not fair!
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Edible on October 06, 2009, 03:44:31 AM
UK, you show everything from vast improvement to negative improvement based entirely upon your whim, so you don't count. o.O
Plus you've played way more games than me, so who am I to judge~
Heehee, I suppose that's true. It's not ENTIRELY based on my whim. I just roll with how I start. It's more like rolling a new character each game.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: FinnKaenbyou on October 06, 2009, 11:26:56 AM
INVASION MAFIA.
WHOEVER WINS, COMMON SENSE LOSES.
Yeah, after a bad night's sleep I'm sitting here posting this in class because I have nothing to do (damn I never do this, I feel like a rebel now). I've calmed down somewhat, and I think most of yesterday's panic mainly revolved around the idea that people would think less of me for playing badly here. I mean, imagine if you were a decent chess player and saw one of your friends lose to the Fool's Mate - fastest loss in the game, requires you to play like an utter moron. Obviously your respect for him's going to take a bit of a beating if you see something like that, and I'm scared that's what's going to happen to me.
So yeah, maybe I'm overreacting, but given the responses from Alice and Kilga I'm genuinely worried I've lost some social standing over this game. >_>
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Pesco on October 06, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
Protip: Alice and Kilga are not the absolutes of the game here.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Kilgamayan on October 06, 2009, 03:50:52 PM
No one has lost social standing as a result of this game.
Hell, no one has lost social standing as a result of that three-way cyber session.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: ?q on October 06, 2009, 08:54:35 PM
The only question I have is how Suwako got lynched at all after D1. I would have taken what happened D1 as further excuse to ignore/insult him at every conceivable opportunity, but not lynch him.
Other than that, I wasn't reading closely enough to be able to say more than this: Putting a yukkuri into your game is like daring fate to blink.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Edible on October 06, 2009, 08:56:36 PM
Wait, you weren't here for MotK Mafia. So I can't blame you for not knowing better :P (A shame, too - you would have been hilarious~)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: Edible on October 06, 2009, 09:00:44 PM
That was one of the games I managed to read fully here. There's really no excuse.
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: ?q on October 06, 2009, 09:20:49 PM
Oh, okay.
*change of tune*
IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT AND YOU SHOULD NEVER MOD AGAIN DIAF (This is more or less what I hear from everyone else/tell myself after every game; I think I should apologize in advance for the next one)
Title: Re: INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)
Post by: WHMZakeri on October 06, 2009, 09:50:39 PM