Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Beyond the Border~ => Akyu's Arcade => Genji's Battle Arena => Topic started by: Ace-Royale on July 31, 2011, 07:29:35 PM

Title: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Ace-Royale on July 31, 2011, 07:29:35 PM
so we managed to find a way to edit the map, more specifically, the object values. With it, we should be able to edit the skills / stats values and stuff.
However, we'd need to decide what is balanced, what should be changed, etc. So  this thread is for ideas/proposals/discussions about dots balance and what should be changed.

Some things I have in mind to start with is:

1) wriggle ult duration
2) Rumia. Just Rumia
3) Momizi (wolves/stun/ult speed, one of the above)
4) changing Aya skillset ( somehow)
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Rikter on July 31, 2011, 07:31:55 PM
Fot starters on Aya I would remove her base damage for her R and maybe lower the proc rate to 15%.

As for Momiji I would rather see her wolves be like Lycanthrope's and give more punishment for losing them.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dular on July 31, 2011, 07:40:08 PM
Lunasa innate should be reduced to .25x from .4x
Cirno proc rates reduced from 29/25% to 19/19%
Yuyuko ultimate changed back to .45/.50/.55   Seriously, right now I think it can kill a hero with 70% hp.
Yukari auto-creep gain increased from 40-Yukari level to 40-(Yukari level/2).  Something ain't right about a large AoE stunning nuke that does 1000 damage every minute.
Nazrin's Pendulum damage reduced back to how it was.
Yuuka ultimate from 120/105/90 to 180/150/120.
Yuuka flowers not getting parasol bonus.

That's all I can think up right now.


Edit: Oh, and BrownBeta should have his skill changed from 'disconnects' to 'doesn't disconnects'
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: CloverNaght on July 31, 2011, 09:00:43 PM
hmm i think editing DotS so the game itself become balanced took efforts and people obv prefers playing latest version
o well for the nerfs:
Momiji  :change wolf hp regen to 1.0 for all lvls and duration nerf from 180s to 61s, nerf ultimate bonus from 10%/20%/30% to 7%/14%/21%, and stun from 2/2.5/3/3.5 to 1/1.6/2.2/2.8
Youmu  :change her ultimate damage type from pure physical to half phys+half magic, nerf armor reduce from -48 to -24
Flandre :clones takes 300% increased damage, and nerf lifesteal from 9%/18%/27%/36% to 10%/15%/20%/25%
Rumia   :STR gain from ultimate changed from 5 (heroes) and 1 (creeps) to 3/3.5/4 (heroes) and 0.6 (creeps) also Demarcation become active skill (6s duration 12s cd)
Hina      :ultimate now has damage limit (650/1150/1650)
can only think those atm also for Lunasa and Yuyuko...Dular already say it
will add more soon
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on July 31, 2011, 09:38:00 PM
Hina      :ultimate now has damage limit (650/1150/1650)
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/haeun0719/WhyWouldYouDoThat.jpg)
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Helepolis on July 31, 2011, 09:46:44 PM
Inb4shields

This is an extremely bad idea. AFAIK: Each bugfix for a map means each time we have to reinput all values. Each time a new girl gets released we need to redo everything. Each time the map changes... (ry

This thread is in my opinion useless as we don't dev DotS. As long as we don't, we cannot 'stick' with the changes because were are dependant.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dormio Ergo Sum on July 31, 2011, 09:48:21 PM
I agree.
Instead of posting our own whatever, a better thing would be to simply discuss whatever character on the DotS thread.
It's not like that thread is there for talking about DotS or anything.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: CloverNaght on July 31, 2011, 09:57:42 PM
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt56/haeun0719/WhyWouldYouDoThat.jpg)
LMAO
well what Hele said
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Pesco on July 31, 2011, 10:03:14 PM
The only time you'd really need to redo things is when a new girl gets released. More accurately, a new girl's model gets added. As long as the modified map that people make adjustments on still has all the base data, it's not as much of a task to update things accordingly.

If a stable working version can be put out, this thread can stay separate. If not, it gets merged.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dr Rawr on July 31, 2011, 10:15:48 PM
Actually adding changes to each map isnt so difficult, like with apharmdb said, you can use macros to make auto changes.

The real problem is we wont have an updated accurate wiki and disagreements between balance. I'd be more interested in a HJ dots rather then a balanced dots IMO

 :trollface:
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Ace-Royale on July 31, 2011, 10:23:31 PM
Well I guess the general opinion is we want the latest version, compared to the balanced version? I for one wouldn't mind if all new content was stopped for a bit till the balance issue was fixed. This would be waiting for a stable version of 967 to come out then working off that.

I'm not quite sure, but would it be possible to just import the models/code from the latest version as they're released? Then we can just copy/import the new stuff, using the stable 967 as a base.

If we do have to update all the new values and etc every time a new version is released, guess we can just stick with the latest version, and this thread merged, because too much effort :/
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: tbax704 on July 31, 2011, 11:43:31 PM
Well I have some suggestions so some heroes no longer banned, will post more over time

Remove the "all physical damage can crit" trigger.
Old titanic oar, anchor, and nice boat
Camera changes to 15% chance to deal (target's max health x 3%) magic damage
Tacticus changes to +20% hp regen and grants hp regen of (1% x missing hp) per second
Patchouli's 1st-3rd skills cooldown changes to 13/12/11/10s
Wriggle's D no longer silences (maybe you can add slow by 30%)
Wriggle's F no longer scales
Wriggle invis fade time changes to 6/5/4s
Rumia's D lasts for 2/3/4/5s
Rumia's F no longer causes bleeding and make it 5% chance to deal 115/130/145/160% dmg,
and slows for 10/15/20/25%
Rumia's ult cooldown changes to 120.

But still, if we make a "balanced" version of dots, who knows what the devs will do to us...
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Rikter on July 31, 2011, 11:45:41 PM
The only time you'd really need to redo things is when a new girl gets released. More accurately, a new girl's model gets added. As long as the modified map that people make adjustments on still has all the base data, it's not as much of a task to update things accordingly.

If a stable working version can be put out, this thread can stay separate. If not, it gets merged.

Thing is people would need to actually discuss and mostly what should be changed and how to even get to a point where a stable working version could be put out
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dr Rawr on July 31, 2011, 11:46:52 PM
at most they will get butt hurt and ask us to stop, but you got a point wouldnt hurt to ask them if we can modify there map to our needs

Also a stable working version doesnt mean its balanced still :V
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Momijibot on July 31, 2011, 11:54:39 PM
If you can open a dialogue with the OG Dots team, it may make things easier in the long run. Heck, if you make awesome maps, they may even get included in the real thing.

The publicity would be great for MOTK, and it'd also just be awesome.

Provided you had someone to deal with the language barrier, of course.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Rikter on August 01, 2011, 12:07:27 AM
Also a stable working version doesnt mean its balanced still :V

It would however make some of the characters who are rarely picked because they are broken and people don't want to hear complaints over it during/after game picked more
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dr Rawr on August 01, 2011, 12:12:50 AM
I dont get what youre trying to say but, theres usually a month between new versions so that plenty of time to decide on balance issues. this would be after versions e or f come out (if there is one). theres also no harm in discussing girls who havent been touched in recent versions or for a long sometime.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Rikter on August 01, 2011, 12:15:51 AM
Oh I thought you where refering to why make a balanced version.

Anyways yeah it would be best to wait until version C-F before starting on actually doing changes because hopefully most notable bugs will be worked out by then.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: ApharmdB on August 01, 2011, 08:47:32 AM
I've really opened up a can of worms here haven't I? Sigh.

I don't really have any suggestions on balance that haven't already been mentioned, but I do think that, as what Helepolis said, such a thread is going to be a mess. You guys might want to discuss this with a select few skilled players with extensive DotA AND DotS experience, make the changes, then -playtest- within the community and repeat. Balance is very rarely achieved through attempting to implement 456894 ideas from everybody, which is why I oddly agree with the DotS devs in taking a measured approach when it comes to listening to balance suggestions from their forums. Some of the stuff that gets thrown around there is hilariously broken even on paper.

Something else that I was in the middle of experimenting halfway before my hols ended - you could ask for permission to use the map's resources and then import everything into a DotA template. These are empty DotA maps with only the terrain and important triggers put in place, e.g. preventing backdooring and teamkilling, giving gold, item combinations, hero selections, etc. All that remains for you to do is to put in your heros and items. You can even edit the terrain if you so wish. Touhou Moon is one such example of a project. First, this gets around the ethical issue of altering someone else's work, which was the whole reason why I held off on doing exactly such a thing back when I first figured out how to edit the map. The good thing about doing this is that it'll be very easy to put all the up-to-date information on a wiki - just export the strings from the map and ALL the relevant skill/character data will be available for copy-pasting onto a wiki.

Also, since the last time we spoke, I've figured out more stuff about editing the DotS map...
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Nightkriss on August 01, 2011, 09:06:31 AM
Wriggle ultimate should be change to active skill like stealth in WoW.

Let's say 120s duration and skills,items usage breaks it and then a 30s CD starts counting before it could be reapplied.
Right now with0.3s wriggle can attack,use items while being almost invincible because you cannot target it and deal dmg with AoE only.

Momizi wolves should have passive which gives them no collision like Kitsune exalt item.
Flandre clones should have received 150% more dmg,
Suika ult bash reduced from 100% to 60% (She already have increased attack speed so it will still proc almost on every hit)
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Ace-Royale on August 01, 2011, 03:41:47 PM
CURRENT CHANGES - 0.967b v1

This is just experimental, to see what exactly would be needed to bring these girls down to scale.
We are also trying to nerf Wriggle's D, but it is sort of hard atm because silence duration isn't in the code :< suggestions for balancing it is welcome. The damage calculation for it is messed up too :/
 
 Shou W deals damage as it should have. 220/330/440 -> 250/375/500
 Momiji D wolves rescaled to 400/450/500/550 HP with 1 Regen per second and 0 armor.
 Rumia R cd 15 -> 30/25/20/15
 Rumia W rescaled to +3 per hero kill with no bonus STR for creeps due to immediate limitations may be readded if needed
 Rumia W cooldown raised to 60 seconds at all levels
 Rumia W Manacost 60/70/80 -> 140 flat
 Wriggle W reverted to 3/2/1 fade time
Murasa R properly refrences itself.
Suwako reverted to 315 ms
Yuyuko base ms reduced by 3
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Pesco on August 01, 2011, 05:04:06 PM
Yuyuko base ms reduced by 3

Y U DO DIS :qq:
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Rikter on August 01, 2011, 06:09:04 PM
Wriggle D silence duration is likely changeable now. I'll poke around with it later. Actual suggestions for what the damage bonus/silence/cool down between bonuses should be would be appreciated.

Also the map has huge text errors now but the skill modifications are working as intended at least.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dular on August 01, 2011, 06:36:32 PM
Rumia should have her W changed from no str to +1 str from eating a creep.
Rumia slight cooldown decrease.
Wriggle D (40+lvl*4)/(60+lvl*6)/(80+lvl*8 )/(100+lvl*10) changed to (20+lvl*5)/(30+lvl*7)/(40+lvl*9)/(50+lvl*11).  Does more later on rather it being so huge early on.
Yuyuko gets 3MS.  :V

Edit: On a side note, can we do an HJ first?  Just so we know where everything is and yadda yadda, for the future?
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: CloverNaght on August 01, 2011, 08:26:36 PM
Edit: On a side note, can we do an HJ first?  Just so we know where everything is and yadda yadda, for the future?
this lol
easier to make HJ vers rather than balanced DotS
me wants HJ Merlin!
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Rikter on August 01, 2011, 08:29:05 PM
Edit: On a side note, can we do an HJ first?  Just so we know where everything is and yadda yadda, for the future?

The triggers and dummy abilities are actually organized relatively well (Items are the worst though) so it wouldn't be to hard to do both. HJ is just bloated values on everything anyways.

I would personally rather try a balanced version because I personally find HJ unfun but i would gladly do it first if it means people would discuss balanced as well
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: kactaplb on August 01, 2011, 09:25:32 PM
HJ plz.

Is it really all that much of a problem? If we don't like it, we just simply ban it(camera,etc). Or just not be jerks? This "balance" shouldn't change the way we play.

Also, dangerous road, trying to balance map yourself. Inb4 more raeg, this time internal. Blaming dots devs is all fun and games after all cuz who cares anyway.
Anywho, good luck.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Rikter on August 02, 2011, 01:13:36 AM
Okay so after trying to make the map not screw itself over and load how I wanted it all I managed was a map with some changes I wanted but no trees anywhere at all and broken strings everywhere resulting in no hotkeys.

That should not be a problem much longer though and I should at least have something to show. After some discussion and derping around in jasscraft these changes are what I think most of us will agree with for a basic first release.

Rumia F slow reduced to 15%/22.5%/30%/37.5% from 25%/30%/35%/40%
Rumia W rescaled to +3 per hero kill with no bonus STR for creeps due to immediate limitations may be readded if needed - line 21912 through 21920
Rumia W cooldown changed to 54/45/36 seconds
Wriggle D rescaled to (20+lvl*5)/(30+lvl*7)/(40+lvl*9)/(50+lvl*11) - Line 25657 (Dular's scaling idea)
Wriggle W reverted to 3/2/1 fade time
Murasa R doesn't check for Mokou's D for scaling. -Line 26574
Shou W deals damage as it should have. 220/330/440 -> 250/375/500
Disable all Physical Damage can crit Trigger

These are just soley focused on Rumia and Wriggle and the devs being best devs. Rumia's changes I discussed with M-Reimu and recived some opinions from Dular on the previous ideas for changes. Crit change just seems to be disliked in general

I want to implement some of these ideas of my own and probably a few of Dular's/M-Reimu's but I would like to see ideas that other people could think of because several things could still be considered for a first release.

Suwako reverted to 315 ms
Aya R Chance to activate changed from 24% to 20% and damage scaling changed from 20 + AGI * 0.8/28 + AGI * 1.0/36 + AGI * 1.2/44 + AGI * 1.4 to AGI*.7/AGI/AGI*1.3/AGI*1.6
Remove Aya's current W and replace it with her current C only.
Momiji D wolves rescaled to 400/450/500/550 HP with 1 Regen per second and 0 armor.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Captain Infinity on August 02, 2011, 03:02:51 AM
I should probably be more involved in these silly changes and such, and be more active about DotS overall.

FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, I seriously suggest you guys reconsider and rethink things before you even begin to try and make changes. I don't think you guys thought this through nearly as much as it needs to be and I'm having doubts about this already.

Secondly, Wriggle's W isn't what made her OP, which I've been saying since the beginning. What made her OP was her current D (I at first didn't think it was bad until I managed to get a score of something like 46 kills and like 8 deaths or so, and considering it's me, the worst player, that's something huge so I admit I was wrong there, Amra, Dormio) and her ability to farm incredibly fast (due to beetles and great last hitting ability) combined with her forcing people to buy detection items (that alone wouldn't really be too bad, but when you got her being able to get a Watermelon sword in 10 mins or less easily while her opponents have to buy baby Tengus/wards that's an issue).

Thirdly Yuyuko and Suwako's MS boosts were pretty pointless and didn't affect gameplay much, why did we bother with reverting them?

Fourthly and definitely more importantly than any other point, Dormio you suck ApharmdB why did you have to do this qq, I was hoping it wouldn't come to this really, which was one of the reasons I never bothered with the deprotection of the map.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: ApharmdB on August 02, 2011, 06:53:04 AM
Orz... I didn't set out tinkering with the map with the goal of balancing it or anything :(

I should explain that I initially deprotected it to get at the stats. I wasn't too successful at all, but I did get to read the stats off the map at least. Didn't do anything with the map nor did I want to do anything with the map for the longest time, until the devs started dragging their feet on the Yamame bug. Then I learnt some JASS to fix the thing and of course that involved learning a bit more about map deprotection. Then I found DotA templates and vJASS and before my hols ended, I had a working map with Reimu in it, with Fantasy Seal, Evil Sealing Circle, Duplex Barrier and FANTASY HEAVEN, AS SHE SHOULD HAVE DAMMIT. Now I want to learn vJASS.. HELP ME STOP THIS MADNESS. Anyway, I don't know much about all this and Rikter would probably know that I'm also just tinkering with things and figuring things out myself at the moment. I just figured that since others have use of whatever I've figured out over the course of the last two months or so, I might as well share it.

Regarding my opinions on DotS balance, I don't agree with the idea that DotS can be balanced by tweaking numbers around. That's one reason why even though the idea crossed my mind a long time ago, I held off on giving it any more attention. Another reason is that I get the idea that while some of us rage at the game, we don't really care enough about the imbalance since we just cool off and come back for more anyway. It's a silly silly game. But the most important reason is, of course, ethics. That's why I've never shared my full listfile for the map.

Now, maybe number tweaking works for some heros and items, but not all. The concepts behind some heros and items are so bad that I don't think any amount of number-tweaking will help - Satori, Aya, Camera, Katana come to mind immediately. Ace and Rikter are probably finding out that even number tweaking isn't easy and how easy it is to make players rage. It's far too easy to swing things the other way and nerf something from being horribly overpowered to the pits of uselessness with just a few minor changes, e.g. Rumia. That's why I suggested that if they do carry on with this, they ought to get input from a select few experienced individuals instead of opening discussion up to anyone and everyone and do extensive playtesting because some skills are only really clearly broken when put in practice and combined with other skills from the same hero - Wriggle's D wouldn't be so brutal if she didn't also have permanent invisibility that prevented her from being attacked normally. Going one step further involves altering elements of the characters' designs (seriously, the Komeiji sisters need help) and for that, I like to look to Valve's Axiomatic Design philosophy - set a list of principles that the game should adhere to, e.g. hero abilities must show evidence of their canon character design (haha Koishi), or all heros must be pose a significant threat in end game team battles (haha Satori), and ensure that skills/items/stats are designed with that in mind (definitely not easy!) But hey, it's a fun learning experience if nothing else, and who knows, they might even eventually come up with a better Touhou DotA on their own, so why hold back on the knowledge (about map deprotecting) right? I learnt JASS by mostly by staring at DotS triggers myself.

Well, that's a whole load of words with nothing really relevant to the topic, so... /end
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Dular on August 02, 2011, 07:04:42 AM
Well, I would like to put this in:

If we can't make a balanced dots, which in of itself is hard and I'm well aware of that, can we at least make a new HJ?  I'd like HJ Byakuren and Nue and all that.
Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Helepolis on August 02, 2011, 07:10:50 AM
You guys might want to discuss this with a select few skilled players with extensive DotA AND DotS experience, make the changes, then -playtest- within the community and repeat. Balance is very rarely achieved through attempting to implement 456894 ideas from everybody, which is why I oddly agree with the DotS devs in taking a measured approach when it comes to listening to balance suggestions from their forums. Some of the stuff that gets thrown around there is hilariously broken even on paper.
That is kind of my entire point. In addition to that: We do not represent the entire DotS community, therefore any modification we apply is a pure 'in-house/homebrew' development. I don't care if the triggers are easy to change.  I don't care if we can macro-automate changes. Even Lucky, who is translating, has 0 influence on the outcome of DotS maps. Perhaps only the naming can be freely done, but that is about it.

Balance doesn't goes like: "Hey lets nerf A."  "What about girl B"  -->  "All right we do bit of A and bit of B". Like Aph said, you need to perform a tremendous amount of cycles of discussions, polling, tweaking, re-testing, feedback etc etc.

[mid-edit] DAMN IT APH, STOP STEALING MY WORDS!!
Indeed, it is not just the numbers or damage on skills. It is a combination of everything and every possible scenario with every type of item and every type of girl in your team or as an enemy.


If you people are really serious about this, stop posting self-sense-balance ideas and start contacting the Chinese devs and discuss the matter. And I don't mean just 'contact' them to chit-chat. Or start forming an elite group of DotS players and involve also DS into this.

You can hate me for bashing this thread but while I like most people prefer a sense of balance in the DotS games, also got to stay realistic. That balance is never going to happen. Not with random posting. We can only hope with each major version release the Devs quit making this map a LoL-ripoff and spent more time on actual development. The implementation of these Innate skills proof my point. They are not necessary.

Title: Re: [WC3 - DOTS] - Balancing DOTS
Post by: Pesco on August 02, 2011, 07:20:43 AM
Thread lock now.

Why: DotS balance is a volatile subject. Making a balanced map and then turning around to make another HJ instead is taking this in a whoile different route. The basic sentiment I'm getting across here is 'Put up or Shut up'. You want to be a dev, that's fine. Make your product and show us a working version before we rain criticism or praise on you. Right now this is all talk and no tangible action. Give the map a new name when you have a product and we can discuss it as a whole new custom map.