Author Topic: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory  (Read 30032 times)

三重階乗

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I've had time to kill over the past couple months, so I decided to look into the various things that lead to this theory in more detail.

Several people in the fandom, for various reasons, honestly believe Hong Meiling is a dragon, if not The Dragon God Him/Herself:

- Her BOSS theme, Shanghai Alice of Meiji 17, combines the creating "Team" of the series (Shanghai Alice) and the year the Hakurei Barrier was created (Meiji 17, or 1884). Sounds like a theme name a Creator would have, not some ordinary gatekeeper. Seemed like just a simple coincidence at the time, and the theme itself is generally overshadowed by her stage theme Shanghai Teahouse ~ Chinease Tea. But then things started to unfold over the years...

- I'm sure most of us recognise that the highest God (the aforementioned Creator) is The Dragon, and that the word "Dragon" shows up every now and then in Meiling's Spell Cards in Hisoutensoku. Seems like harmless God references at first, but she shouldn't have much reason to mention it 5 times though her cards when almost everyone else does it no more than once or twice in the entire series. Qi Sign "Heaven and Earth Dragon Kick" says it twice in the same card! The only other person who does these things is Iku, who outdoes everyone else combined in using "Dragon" in spellcards thus far (16 to 11) and can get away with it because she's the messanger of the Dragon Palace. In contrast, both MCs have only used it once each (Divine Arts "Omnidirectional Dragon Slaying Circle" and Star Sign "Dragon Meteor" [in Katakana] respectively). I can take one or two sayings of the word as coincidences, but once you get to 3, 4, and 5 times it begins to look more like a pattern.

- The Dragon also correlates with the rainbows that trail Him/Her, which happen to be Meiling's main motif. It's also the main motif of the Chinese Rainbow-Dragon also named Hong (but with a different character). In CoLA 18: Dragon's Camera we learn that, according to Rinnosuke, "since dragons are made from the three perfect elements of the world, they leave in their way the seven colors of the rainbow, which can create everything in existence." In Double Spoiler Aya mentions that "A rainbow is apparently a type of dragon god," albeit on Kogasa's Rainbow Sign "Over The Rainbow." This makes Meiling's rainbow motif go from simply colorful to symbolic and almost telling if Rinnosuke is correct.

- She also has some card names with Color in them, but several of them are also associated with weather, a common Eastern Dragon motif. Colorful Signs "Colorful Rain," "Extreme Color Typhoon," and later "Vivid Color Downpour," and Colorful Flip "Fluttering Petals and Falling Leaves" all do so in some way. This started early too, but was easily overlooked by most.

- Meiling seems to use rainbows and martial arts to simulate her ability to control Qi, which was generally considered the flow of energy that sustains the living in Chinese and Japanese mythology. Being the Fantasy Kitchen Sink that Gensokyo is, this is most likely true there. If that's the case, then you can almost call Meiling's ability "Control of Life Energy." (WARNING: TV Tropes Will RUIN YOUR LIFE!)

Considering that the only Dragon Gensokyo knows about is The Highest God of Illusion, it would only be natural that she doesn't want others to know about her race. They'd probably assume her to BE the aforementioned Dragon God. Right or wrong, that would strike a major blow to the balance of Gensokyo.

It's a little easier when claiming she's simply A dragon, but what if one believes she's THE Dragon? Why would He/She hide in plain sight like this? A short explanation would be that The Dragon would have a divine monopoly, and that would make it difficult, if not impossible for other deities to take residence in His/Her domain while He/She can still watch over it to an extent. Believe what you want to believe, but anytime I see someone say that Meiling is "a normal person who just guards" the next thing to come to my mind is "DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT!"

Tengukami

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2010, 01:56:01 AM »
I always thought that the dragon imagery was to emphasize her Chinese-ness, not to necessarily imply that she was a dragon herself. This is the most comprehensive post I've seen on this theory though.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2010, 02:00:05 AM »
I'm glad you went through the trouble to research all of this. It's always interesting to see detailed explanations of theories.

I don't agree with it myself, though. It just seems a bit weird to me.
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2010, 02:14:44 PM »
I always thought that the dragon imagery was to emphasize her Chinese-ness, not to necessarily imply that she was a dragon herself. This is the most comprehensive post I've seen on this theory though.
This pretty much sums up what I was going to say.

...Only in much more mild-mannered tone.

Quote
Right or wrong, that would strike a major blow to the balance of Gensokyo.
Which is exactly why I believe it isn't true. EoSD has been out for a while now, and after all this time, after all the stuff she's gone through (and for that matter, the junk we've seen of her go through), why would ZUN suddenly reveal her to be the Dragon of all things?

Honestly, I believe that, if Meiling truly was a Dragon she woudn't even exist now being ZUN would most likely save a character THAT powerful up until the last Touhou game or whatever. That said, she also wouldn't be a Stage 3 boss either...I mean really...a DRAGON...a Stage 3 boss?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 02:23:41 PM by Monoebus »
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2010, 02:51:22 PM »
That is one very detailed post; a lot of research went into that, I can clearly see. When put that way, it's very easy to convince people to look at it the same way. Of course, I'm not sure sure whether to go with it or not, but it's certainly made me think more about it now.

However, I will say something about this...

Honestly, I believe that, if Meiling truly was a Dragon she woudn't even exist now being ZUN would most likely save a character THAT powerful up until the last Touhou game or whatever. That said, she also wouldn't be a Stage 3 boss either...I mean really...a DRAGON...a Stage 3 boss?

That's all well and good, but the argument doesn't work. Yuugi springs to mind instantly. If that was the case, how do you justify an oni being a stage 3 boss then? It doesn't matter what stage position they are; in fact, I'm sure I've seen ZUN say that himself at some point. Plus, for all we know, Meiling could be holding back because of the spell card rules themselves. Or, maybe she is just pretending to be some what lazy and seeing how everyone does in Gensokyo for reasons not known to us.

Like I said, I'm neither agreeing or dis-agreeing with this whole theory; but it's making me think things like this a lot more now.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2010, 02:57:23 PM »
That's all well and good, but the argument doesn't work. Yuugi springs to mind instantly. If that was the case, how do you justify an oni being a stage 3 boss then? It doesn't matter what stage position they are; in fact, I'm sure I've seen ZUN say that himself at some point. Plus, for all we know, Meiling could be holding back because of the spell card rules themselves. Or, maybe she is just pretending to be some what lazy and seeing how everyone does in Gensokyo for reasons not known to us.

Well, first off, onis are sort of commonplace creatures in Gensokyo. The Dragon God is a unique being. Not having a power-level discussion here, but I think that's an important distinction. Also, there's a whole lot of maybes in this post here. Maybe she's pretending. Maybe she's lazy. But we have no evidence to support that. Saying "maybe such and such" isn't evidence. You could just as easily say "maybe Reimu's the Dragon". The OP here at least drew together comparative symbolism to build a case. 

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2010, 06:42:54 PM »
Oh, come on. So much thought invested into exploring the origin and power of Meiling, a stage 3 boss?

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2010, 07:44:12 PM »
Meiling is a panda.

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2010, 08:15:33 PM »
I'm more convinced that the loli dragon god of Gensokyo lives at the Dragon Palace in Heaven with Iku and Tenshi, but I'd like to be surprised.
Meiling has a hazy background that's for sure.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2010, 08:48:18 PM »
Even if Meiling were a dragon, the chances of her being the Gensokyo dragon, or somehow connected to him, would be very unlikely. It would be nuts hard for Dragon to do what he wants to do if he's gotta keep guard over a mansion 24/7.
If anything, Meiling would be a Chinese dragon, not a Japanese one.

I'd like to believe Meiling is just following a Chinese motif with the whole dragon/rainbow thing. Considering ZUN gives us a lot of information on characters, even when it's pointless or not connected to the games at all, it's hard to believe he'd make Meiling a secret dragon without telling the fans.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2010, 09:16:29 PM »
Don't use power levels as an argument to either theory please.
That being said, I hope she is just so that remi owns even more =p.

Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2010, 09:46:07 PM »
Kogasa is the real dragon.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2010, 09:52:59 PM »
Don't use power levels as an argument to either theory please.
That being said, I hope she is just so that remi owns even more =p.

I really didn't see that as a power levels remark. It's just a simple acknowledgement that the things the Dragon has to do and the things that Hong Meiling has to do would result in some, uh, scheduling conflicts.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2010, 10:06:41 PM »
I wanna have ZUN logged on here and tell us the truth =D


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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2010, 06:24:54 AM »
Me personally, I think Hong might be a (or THE) dragon but just doesn't realize it.  It's possible she does though.  Not much evidence either way (if she really is a or the dragon)

I also lean towards the belief that all the jokes about Mei Ling being so weak and Dragon being so strong is done on purpose (IE, a "Surprise!  The character everyone is making fun of is THE dragon!"

Again, just speculation.

At any rate, something to remember is that in Gensokyo, dreams are serious business.  I shouldn't really have to explain why.  In Mei Ling's Hisoutenko ending,
Spoiler:
She dreams of a youkai even stronger than the catfish that's so strong that everyone needs to come together to beat it, and she'll be at the front lines.  This part of Hong Meiling's ending is actually not particularly treated as a joke, and given the importance of dreams in Gensokyo, it makes me wonder if a true "awakened" Dragon Mei Ling will need to defeat this youkai, or alternatively, that this super strong youkai is THE dragon Hong Mei Ling, herself, considering how rage-tastic the dragon went long ago.

Oh, that's right.  The reason why I think Hong is a dragon but doesn't realize it yet is because of her ending in Hisoutenko. 
Spoiler:
It's from her perspective, after all, so you'd think it'd be more serious if Hong Meiling herself were really that devious and smart underneath.  So I think that, if she is THE dragon, she probably just... forgot.  Alternatively, she's another dragon that's more... mentally immature.  Or alternatively alternatively, she's an unappreciated genius because that catfish is real and dangit, everyone had better listen to her and take her dreams seriously because she's THE dragon!

...but yea.  There's no hard proof that she's a dragon and it's possible that all that stuff is meant to just symbolize her as Chinese dragon themed since she's so... Chinese in general, but... personally, I lean towards the theory that she really is one.  It was ZUN's decision to make THE Dragon also be so Chinese themed in the first place, after all.  ...I think.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 06:27:12 AM by Tiamat »

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2010, 04:05:29 PM »
I really didn't see that as a power levels remark. It's just a simple acknowledgement that the things the Dragon has to do and the things that Hong Meiling has to do would result in some, uh, scheduling conflicts.

The "that" you are referring to is unknown to me, I was talking more about stuff such as "too powerful to be a stage 3 boss" among other things. I'm not saying people were having power debates, I just think it was kinda sorta making a roundabout way in that direction =p.

Anyway, for some reason I personally don't care... Because I just don't really care about meiling. I don't hate her, she's just... I can't explain it, she just doesn't interest me at all. As a character, there is nothing wrong with her but, *shrugs*. I'm a sdm nut too!

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2010, 05:00:42 PM »
Well.. I can definitely buy that she is A dragon... I could even buy that she could be A dragon with massive memory loss... Wasn't there something about martial artists that go bad in a bad way also being known as poisoned dragons? Honestly, I think the real line that needs to be looked at is not the actual dragon-kin thing for Meiling, but what actually is being defined for her as a dragon.

Part of me thinks that this is actually a massive play on words where both and neither are true at the same time...
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2010, 09:20:30 PM »
Doesn't her first name mean "Rainbow Dragon"? Or something like that? I think that would make it obvious that Meiling is totally a dragon. Just like Satori, whose first name is also the name of her species.


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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2010, 09:29:43 PM »
I'm not a big martial arts buff, I find fighting to be pretty boring actually. But isn't it common for stuff to be named "dragon" in Japanese martial arts?

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 10:06:54 PM »
in Japanese martial arts

Meiling's a Chinese (or chinese-ish) name. Also her style is Chinese. If we would go by names like that then other characters would be different then they already are.
Dragons are a more popular theme in China then Japan. Thus Associating Meiling to China makes her associated with dragons. I doubt sh has a dragon form cannon-wise.


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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 10:15:23 PM »
Doesn't her first name mean "Rainbow Dragon"? Or something like that? I think that would make it obvious that Meiling is totally a dragon. Just like Satori, whose first name is also the name of her species.

They're the same romanized, but their characters are different (Meiling's first name is 紅, the rainbow dragon is 虹).

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2010, 10:34:49 PM »
She probably astral projects as the Dragon while she sleeps. Which is most of the time.
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2010, 06:36:19 AM »
Doesn't her first name mean "Rainbow Dragon"? Or something like that? I think that would make it obvious that Meiling is totally a dragon. Just like Satori, whose first name is also the name of her species.
That's...not exactly a good reason to assume she's actually a dragon, you know...
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2010, 05:27:40 PM »
>3> I've always had a belief that's she's Dragon-related, if not A dragon in herself. But by no means would she be THE dragon, that... would be to predictable and somewhat make Hong Mailing lose her charm.

Scarlet Devil doujin series, makes me thing Hong Meiling holds back only in the interest of entertaining Remilia... But honestly I think she's actaully much older than Remilia, but I have no proof... but I think she's more like a born servant... etc etc... I won't even bother getting into my belief of that, but I think she lives to entertain her Master depending on WHO they are... Remilia is a picky person, who was in a mansion for many years, Patchouli is around a 100 years but we don't per-say know how lonmg she's lives with the SDM...

I'd like to belief she raised Sakuya... but it is unsure whether Sakuya is from another world, maybe the Other world is the Outside world?

The fact that she holds back on Sakuya shows she's something... but whaqtever...

But other than anything Thoeries are based on fandomness as well... ^^;; I'm a full supporter of Dragon Meiling but not a God per-say....

But this theory will fall the moment ZUN tells her species.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2010, 10:49:00 AM »
But this theory will fall the moment ZUN tells her species.

Bad news, aniki.

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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2010, 12:43:03 PM »
I can definitely buy that she's a Chinese dragon. Definitely not THE Dragon, though.

But even so, I'd believe she's a (comparatively) young dragon, much younger than Remilia and Flandre. My guess would be that she's at most around Patchy's age.
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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 02:13:56 PM »
I wanna have ZUN logged on here and tell us the truth =D

I find that quite funny because of your avatar :3

Anyways, Tengu summed up my thoughts already:
I always thought that the dragon imagery was to emphasize her Chinese-ness, not to necessarily imply that she was a dragon herself.

Since some martial arts tend to like to refer to themselves as some sort of animal to represent their style of fighting and such, normally a dragon would be one of those high up there, and since she's probably the best in martial arts, training in such, I think she likes to refer her attacks as such.


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Re: Hong Meiling is A/The Dragon: A closer look at a semi-common theory
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 03:31:35 PM »
And maybe ZUN is a dragon himself!

Without any evidence, this theory is nothing more than a fun thought exercise. Which is totally, utterly fine, no doubt about it. It's just going to be reeeally hard to make any headway beyond "I think Hong Meiling is The Dragon because that's what I want to believe" when there's not really anything accounting for that that can't be explained with "dragon imagery underlines her Chinese-ness".

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."