Reimu's age?

[nintendonut888]

But that's what I'm saying. Everyone can agree that neither Reimu nor Marisa have really physically changed at all since EoSD except for to match the game's art style (and Reimu's hair growing out over the years I guess). Isn't the change much more likely to be between this supposedly negligible gap?

In fact, hold on a second, I just remembered something. PMiSS refers to an unseen incident known as the "vampire incident," after which spell cards were established. According to the Wiki's timeline, this takes place before or around 1998. Now, like always I question the Wiki's veracity on this date since I don't see any source supporting it, but if this is true then that would completely prove my hypothesis. Thanks to the dates provided by Aya in BAiJR, we know that EoSD takes place in late summer of 2003. So, even if PC-98's dates are unclear, this would establish beyond a shadow of a doubt a large gap between PC-98 and Windows; Mystic Square had no mention of spell cards, so it must have taken place before the vampire incident, which would mean it did indeed take place around the game's original release: 1998.

If this holds (and I really wish I had confirmation on that date), that would strike out Reimu being a teenager entirely. She would absolutely have to be in her twenties by now regardless of what we argue her age in HRtP to have been: If she were 8, then 16 years later she would be 24. If she were 12-13 like I think, she would be 28 or even 29 by now.

[chirpy13]

Well I took a look at the JP wiki and it lists MS as Spring or Summer 2003, LLS as summer 2002, PoDD as 2002 (most likely spring, it doesn't specify), SoEW as late November 2001, and HRtP as sometime in 1998.  Based on that, I think we can just assume that the vampire incident was pre-HRtP and spell card rules always existed as far as the games are concerned, but just weren't really brought up until EoSD.  In any case, that gives us a 13 year span from HRtP to TD, meaning Reimu is definitely 20+ in HRtP.  Maybe 25-28?

http://thwiki.info/?cmd=read&page=%B8%B8%C1%DB%B6%BF%C7%AF%C9%BD

[nintendonut888]

But you see, that's the big problem we're all having: We're taking the Wikis as the gospel, when really they're run by fans that have as good a guess as any of us. Even running that timeline through an internet translator brings up a clear enough translation that has them basically saying "we're just guessing." None of these give any sources for these pre-game events' times, and these guesses end up spreading as truth. Really, I can't in good conscience submit the timeline placing of the Vampire Incident, since all we can say for sure is that it took place between MS and EoSD. The Wiki also says EoSD was the first time the spell card system was used, but nothing in EoSD or PMiSS supports that either.

If only ZUN would be a bit more specific in a few things, this debate could be wrapped up so easily...

[XephyrEnigma]

PMiSS refers to an unseen incident known as the "vampire incident," after which spell cards were established.

Im going to guess this particular event was just before EoSD.

[Kips McKipzerson]

Is it so hard to accept the fact that ZUN cant draw adults for his life :V

[chirpy13]

But you see, that's the big problem we're all having: We're taking the Wikis as the gospel, when really they're run by fans that have as good a guess as any of us. Even running that timeline through an internet translator brings up a clear enough translation that has them basically saying "we're just guessing." None of these give any sources for these pre-game events' times, and these guesses end up spreading as truth. Really, I can't in good conscience submit the timeline placing of the Vampire Incident, since all we can say for sure is that it took place between MS and EoSD. The Wiki also says EoSD was the first time the spell card system was used, but nothing in EoSD or PMiSS supports that either.

If only ZUN would be a bit more specific in a few things, this debate could be wrapped up so easily...

Yeah, sadly it's all we have to go off of right now though =(.  That and our own shots in the dark anyway.  Someone should ask him about this or something.  I would look into it myself but I don't know any Japanese, and I don't believe he speaks English does he?

[ふとくていなねこじょおう]

Sometimes ZUN seems to just make things up as he goes.  :V

[illyx]

The Wiki also says EoSD was the first time the spell card system was used, but nothing in EoSD or PMiSS supports that either.

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Reimu_Hakurei

It's said that the Scarlet Mist incident caused by the vampires that had stirred up such a fuss was the first time the spell card rule was put to use.

:getdown:

[nintendonut888]

Huh, how'd I miss that? Well then, in that case it probably is likely the vampire incident took place not too long before EoSD, though as always there's not enough information to judge; you could just as easily say no incidents of EoSD's caliber happened for years after that, since it said "the shrine maiden agreed to change the rules because she was bored of a peaceful life."

Still, at this point it doesn't have any bearing on the issue of Reimu's age, since we can't place a date on the vampire incident and there's absolutely nothing in canon that indicates it. It seems the answer comes down to your interpretation of when these events happened and how long of a gap there was between them. I wish there was a better answer, but Touhou's ambiguity thwarts another attempt to quantify part of it.

[illyx]

Well, in TH6 the SDM crew weren't the only ones using the rules. Even Rumia and Cirno suddenly started using them as well. It's hard to imagine that, suddenly, everyone just switched to the new system. Rumia in particular was near the Hakurei Shrine at that point, not the SDM. She probably had nothing to do with it... Though I don't really know where I'm even going with that...

From the quote that I posted above though, we can safely say that the "vampire incident" was caused by Remilia (besides, it's so like her. she would probably have done it the moment they first came to Gensokyo). And the same article implies that Reimu was the one to resolve this incident, not a previous Hakurei shrine maiden. Granted, since these are Akyuu's words and not ZUN's, I always take them with a grain of salt (just read this).

I think it's nice that we can interpret it however we like. It gives the fans a lot more freedom. Though I've never heard of someone writing a set of articles filled with data on their series and then saying it was written by a character and not acknowledging it to be 100% accurate. It's kind of hard to figure out what the point of doing that is. It does get us thinking about more possibilities for what canon Gensokyo is like, at least.

[nintendonut888]

Nngh. I don't like posting this much, but I just have to point out that they're clearly different incidents. The article lists them separately, plus they're completely different in scope. There's more than one vampire in Gensokyo after all...

[Kips McKipzerson]

From everything ZUN's hinted at, We can safely assume the PC-98 era has no relevance to the Windows era, Give or take the characters that were transferred over, but iirc that was mostly due to fan demand.

[HakureiSM]

It's hard to imagine that, suddenly, everyone just switched to the new system.

It was specified in Perfect Memento in Strict Sense  that the Spell Card system was developed by Reimu  and first used in the Scarlet Mist incident. They were designed to give even weak youkai and humans a chance to win, as well as to provide youkai a way to defeat the Hakurei Shrine in a fair duel. They are described as pieces of paper bearing the descriptions of their respective spells, along with the possible approval of the shrine maiden.

It would seem to me that with the might-as-fuck lovely powerful shrine maiden wandering around, youkai such as Rumia, more powerful than normal human(thus able to mess around with them) but not nearly as powerful as the Hakurei miko, would be more than glad to switch to the new system as far as they could. :derp:
Specially with her emphasis in enforcing the youkai can't kill humans law.

It's kind of hard to figure out what the point of doing that is. It does get us thinking about more possibilities for what canon Gensokyo is like, at least.

See how you answered that question yourself right after you proposed it? :V

From everything ZUN's hinted at, We can safely assume the PC-98 era has no relevance to the Windows era, Give or take the characters that were transferred over, but iirc that was mostly due to fan demand.

Why do people insist on this, even after it's been proved otherwise a million times before, in this thread already even

[Drake]

It would seem to me that with the might-as-fuck lovely powerful shrine maiden wandering around, youkai such as Rumia, more powerful than normal human(thus able to mess around with them) but not nearly as powerful as the Hakurei miko, would be more than glad to switch to the new system as far as they could. :derp:

It isn't quite that Reimu was that absurdly powerful when she made the rules; it's that if a youkai happened to kill the only remaining member of the Hakurei Clan, the Great Hakurei Barrier would collapse and Gensokyo would probably cease to exist. Nobody wants this, so before the rules, nobody could touch her. Everybody had to let her do whatever the hell she wanted, and Reimu found that boring and unfair, apparently. It got rid of unnecessary casualties in disputes and forbade pretty much all youkai from eating humans, even when not from Reimu's perspective.

[ふとくていなねこじょおう]

It isn't quite that Reimu was that absurdly powerful when she made the rules; it's that if a youkai happened to kill the only remaining member of the Hakurei Clan, the Great Hakurei Barrier would collapse and Gensokyo would probably cease to exist. Nobody wants this, so before the rules, nobody could touch her. Everybody had to let her do whatever the hell she wanted, and Reimu found that boring and unfair, apparently. It got rid of unnecessary casualties in disputes and forbade pretty much all youkai from eating humans, even when not from Reimu's perspective.

Well, according to PMiSS, youkai CAN eat humans. It's specified in the contract made after the vampire invasion that they can eat humans that get spirited away into Gensokyo, which is why it is constantly pointed out that going into Gensokyo is dangerous for an outside world human, and it's best to find the shrine as quickly as possible before a youkai finds you.

In fact, Remilia's win quote against Yukari in one of the fighting schmupss, can't remember which, is something along the lines of "You should spirit away more humans from the outside world.", but of course in a vaguer, more poetic way being ZUN the one who wrote it.  :V

Basically, Remi says "Bring more food".

[Drake]

I said "pretty much" but I guess it wasn't clear enough that I meant "for the most part they don't get eaten too often".

[Unassuming Squid]

RE: Spellcard rules:

I think it's also entirely safe to imagine that Reimu manipulated the aura of Gensokyo's border so that any existing magical power would be instantly converted into non-lethal danmaku. Nobody had much of a choice, and all magic/forms of combat were danmaku'd. That would also explain why people like Byakuren or Murasa or everyone in SA would instantly be able to use spellcards.

[chirpy13]

That would also explain why people like Byakuren or Murasa or everyone in SA would instantly be able to use spellcards.

And it would explain why dying once to Okuu doesn't result in losing all of your remaining lives.  Nuclear explosions are no longer lethal.  I'm sure they're still quite painful though...

[Mimachiro]

As far as the spell card system goes, I like to think Reimu made the current system, one that built upon a previously existing one (which would explain why she wasn't in any set danger in the PC-98 games). As for how it relates to her age, a child couldn't come up with something like that, so it kinda implies she was at least a teenager at the time she came up with it.

[HakureiSM]

It isn't quite that Reimu was that absurdly powerful when she made the rules; it's that if a youkai happened to kill the only remaining member of the Hakurei Clan, the Great Hakurei Barrier would collapse and Gensokyo would probably cease to exist. Nobody wants this, so before the rules, nobody could touch her. Everybody had to let her do whatever the hell she wanted, and Reimu found that boring and unfair, apparently. It got rid of unnecessary casualties in disputes and forbade pretty much all youkai from eating humans, even when not from Reimu's perspective.

Hm, fair point. Still means she has a fuckton of power in her hands, being responsible for the border. Importance wise, I mean.

[N-Forza]

Is it so hard to accept the fact that ZUN cant draw adults for his life :V

Especially because he has said as much himself.

[Tiamat]

Some quick corrections:

The vampire in the Vampire incident (Presumably to be Remilia)  was defeated by "powerful youkai", not Reimu.  This was stated in the corrected translation of PMiSS's  Reimu section, IIRC.  The problem is, for the longest time, there was a mistranslation on the wiki indicating it was Reimu herself that resolved the incident, but the corrected translation states it was powerful youkai that did

Even tho the shrine maiden (presumably Reimu) signed/approved the final draft, the spell card rules' original first draft were written on Youkai paper, indicating that the first person to write them up was a youkai (stated in PMiSS's draft of spell card rules).  Akyu wonders whot he true author of the spell card rules was.  (Me personally, from looking at the way the rules were written as well as the credits to PMiSS indicating that Yukari researched vampire contracts, I'm pretty sure it was Yukari in both the Vampire Incident and the spell card rules cases)


And um... yea.  Pretty sure someone mentioned it earlier in this thread, but ZUN stated he doesn't want to give Reimu an age cause then she'd have to get older every game.  In otherwords, ZUN himself would rather not think of Reimu as anything but a teen, I imagine.

[N-Forza]

That's why I've been going through PMiSS again making sure the translation is correct. I've already found a few minor mistakes in the fairy and phantom sections.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

"Powerful youkai" singular, or plural? (Though as-is, it's only referring to the vampire itself.)

[nintendonut888]

Huh, interesting. Still, I would argue that this vampire was someone other than Remilia, as it's fairly clear that the Scarlet Devil Mansion was (somehow) not on Gensokyo's radar until EoSD, and therefore Remilia had not yet been assimilated into Gensokyo. Plus, spell card rules were in place before that game.

And um... yea.  Pretty sure someone mentioned it earlier in this thread, but ZUN stated he doesn't want to give Reimu an age cause then she'd have to get older every game.  In otherwords, ZUN himself would rather not think of Reimu as anything but a teen, I imagine.

Yeah, but it's still fun to debate. Even if he doesn't want to depict her as getting older, it's clear she is, since Gensokyo has a defined passage of time. Because that age is vague, even if it may not matter in the big picture, debaters gonna debate.

[Roo]

However, there's something troubling me... Reimu was a little too well-developed to be an 8 year old.

It's possible the stressing duties of being a Shrine Maiden cause her to act more responsibly than most, even at such a young age. This personality trait seems to carry on throughout most of the games anyways. o.O

[chirpy13]

It's possible the stressing duties of being a Shrine Maiden cause her to act more responsibly than most, even at such a young age. This personality trait seems to carry on throughout most of the games anyways. o.O

I meant her chest.

[Agent of the BSoD]

I got it!

.......No wait

[Tiamat]

Yea, Reimu kinda seems like she aged backwards, sometimes.

[Mimachiro]

I think ZUN changed his mind about Reimu's apparent age in the process of making HRtP.