東方 神霊廟 ～ Touhou Ten Desires [TRIAL], an article full of desires and SPOILERS!

[Zengeku]

Yeah honestly. Being allowed to bomb even if you're already hit is not good for you. I think its a good thing that the death bombing is gone since it'll teach players to bomb in advance of getting hit which will be a useful thing to be used to for the time when you wanna try out other shmups than Touhou.

Having to go hyper when you die is a bit annoying but in games like DOJ you just lose whatever hypers you had if you forget to use them so one shouldn't complain about that. However, losing a spellcard bonus because of a hyper being active before beginning the card begins is pretty stupid imo. Its not like you made a mistake on the spellcard. Only on the card/non-spell before it.

Then again, who cares if you lose a spell card if you aren't going for a perfect run or something anyway. Its not like the spell bonuses outweigh the benefits of shotgunning bosses with a hyper to their face.

[CK Crash]

If you don't want deathtrance to ruin your spell card bonus, why can't you just wait until it runs out before beating the spell you died on? You've already lost the current spell's bonus, so stalling isn't going to hurt your score. You're wasting your trance, but you weren't planning on using it anyways. The only time I think this could be an actual problem is if you're beating the spell and dying at the same time.

[ふねん1]

If you don't want deathtrance to ruin your spell card bonus, why can't you just wait until it runs out before beating the spell you died on? You've already lost the current spell's bonus, so stalling isn't going to hurt your score. You're wasting your trance, but you weren't planning on using it anyways. The only time I think this could be an actual problem is if you're beating the spell and dying at the same time.

Stalling out your deathtrance instead of sitting on top of the boss while in said deathtrance to get more spirits of all colors doesn't hurt your score? That's news to me.

[shadowbringer]

No, that's the norm. Deathbombing is just the game being extra generous and you should be grateful to the game for letting you live even though you screwed up, rather than expecting it to do this. :V

the way I wanted to put it, just to make it clear to other people to avoid further confusion, is that counterbomb should be allowed when it's normally not (namely, the "forced death trance"). Counterbombs have existed in all of the series' "main" games (iirc), unlike IN's Deathbombs (which cost two bombs and give a greater lenght of time than normal counterbombing).. the former is even usable for lowering rank in EoSD.

Anyways, forced death trances are harmful for scoring, it messes up the planned trances, so they might be more survival-oriented in this aspect imo.. also I wonder if ZUN will make the game more Ketsui-like, I mean, not with the lock-on multipliers but with the proximity kills (or "in everything's face kills", if you prefer it :p) yielding better rewards (the '5'-labeled boxes).

[Aba Matindesu!]

If you don't want deathtrance to ruin your spell card bonus, why can't you just wait until it runs out before beating the spell you died on? You've already lost the current spell's bonus, so stalling isn't going to hurt your score. You're wasting your trance, but you weren't planning on using it anyways. The only time I think this could be an actual problem is if you're beating the spell and dying at the same time.

...what.

Trance, whether it was manually activated or not, will automatically fail the card. Might as well spend it sitting on the boss and farming blues/grays for higher point item value.

[Helepolis]

Though in any case, you can still activate it manually.

Only if the trance meter is full you can. Otherwise no.

No, that's the norm. Deathbombing is just the game being extra generous and you should be grateful to the game for letting you live even though you screwed up, rather than expecting it to do this. :V

That is your opinion. I see it differently.

It is harsh, because you are forced to die no matter what. Screw up or not, everybody screws up unless you hammer something many times until you can "perfect" it. And perfection in Touhou does not exists unless you can endlessly do it perfect. Having 1 deathless/bombless/tranceless run out of 5000 attempts is not perfect. And majority of the "perfect" runs people do youtube are Stage plays and not full game plays.

Deathbombing has always been a tricky thing to rely on and something unwanted. Responding to it is not easy as you need to be aware of being able to deathbomb on time (unless IN border team).  I know of myself, even if I could deathbomb, I still risk the spellcard/noncard and eventually end up dying because the focus different. Also IN deathbombing deducted 2 bombs (unless it was your last), which is also painful as you never wanted to deathbomb in IN because it wastes bombs.

Basically ZUN is forcing you to play carefully in 10D until you have trance meter filled which allows you to either bomb or trance to save your ass.

[CK Crash]

...what.

Trance, whether it was manually activated or not, will automatically fail the card. Might as well spend it sitting on the boss and farming blues/grays for higher point item value.

I was saying that you could stall on a card you've already failed in order to not lose the bonus on the next card. I personally do the same and shotgun the boss, but there might be a situation where you die near the end of a card and the few items you can get from your 3 second trance aren't worth losing the next card's bonus over.

Also on deathbombing, I haven't really encountered any situations where you're already dying before you know you're screwed. In Imperishable Night, there was an abundance of evenly spread, slow, and dense patterns where deathbombing made more sense, but since UFO we've seen more macrodanmaku patterns. Even stuff like Yoshika's nonspells can be seen as macrodanmaku when you consider that their main feature is the initial downwards cluster. If you're trapped and PROBABLY going to get hit, that's when you bomb. You don't try to squeeze through that one pixel gap and bomb after the fact.

[Aba Matindesu!]

I was saying that you could stall on a card you've already failed in order to not lose the bonus on the next card. I personally do the same and shotgun the boss, but there might be a situation where you die near the end of a card and the few items you can get from your 3 second trance aren't worth losing the next card's bonus over.

Oh, I see, you're talking about cards have no nonspells in between :3

[Mimachiro]

You should still pummel the boss; you have to keep in mind you can't fail a spell for the first few seconds it starts, so if you have a second of trance left, you're set. (I've done that before, tranced on Kyouko's second nonspell, was still trancing when her spell card started, but still got the spell bonus.) :3

[CK Crash]

In that case, it would be helpful to know the exact time it takes before the card checks for trance. I mean, the game gives you a timer for trance anyways...

[Mimachiro]

Hm, that's a good one to look up. I think it's somewhere between three and five seconds, but don't quote me on that. That system has been in place since EoSD, and it seems to be fairly generous. I know I can hit a bomb right before a spell starts and still get the bonus.

[Azure Lazuline]

If I remember correctly, SA (possibly introduced in MoF) had a system where if you entered a spell card while bombing, the boss would be bomb-immune until the bomb ended, and you would get the capture bonus if you completed the rest of the card successfully. Or at least, I'm sure of the first half (the bomb immunity), and in my very limited experience, I believe the second half (the spell bonus) to be true. If so, I would expect all following games to use that system as well, at least for bombs. For Trance, it's probably just a set timer.

By the way, Kyouko's floppy ears are extremely cute.

[7TC7]

Wow, no matter what everyone might say, this is the first game since Imperishable Night where the scoring mechanic is fun enough for me to actually care for it. Standing directly under Yuyuko during her non-spells, second and third spell; Kyouko's non-spells, her first (midboss) and her third spell; all of Kogasa and Yoshika's second spell ups the difficulty and makes normal-mode quite challenging.
Memorising all stage enemies appearences (because only the first wave of stage 1 seems random) and the right times to trance was also quite fun.

On a different note, I facepalmed realising that the first three waves of enemies in Stage 2 (the ying-yang orbs) appear in tens after them throwing me off so many times.

Has anyone an opinion if ~59.300.000 is a good score for normal? Died twice because of stupidity, so I wouldn't be surprised if its terrible after all.

[チソウ タイゼン]

Well, it's better than 42' 000' 000, which I seem to keep topping out at.
I've developed a somewhat of a strategy of "bumrush the top of the screen to collect shit and trance all up in the boss's business."

Supposedly, they drop a lot of spirits that way that increase your Point value by 100.
The highest I ever got that crap  was 28' 000. I think I'm doing it wrong.

[7TC7]

The highest I ever got that crap  was 28' 000. I think I'm doing it wrong.

That's quite funny actually because the one of my last run was exactly 38.000 by the end of it.

[BeyPok?Dig]

I finally realised what pairing i was missing. Yoshika ? Genjii.

[Arcengal]

In that case, it would be helpful to know the exact time it takes before the card checks for trance. I mean, the game gives you a timer for trance anyways...

I find that once the name of the spellcard reaches the top of the screen after being declared, that's when you fail it if you bomb or are in trance mode.

[Mimachiro]

That sounds about right to me. I think it only check for when it is activated, not if it's still going.

[Naut]

Since when do people actually give a damn about the spell bonus?

[Azure Lazuline]

Because capturing a spell makes a number rise that makes you feel better. That's why everyone likes achievements too.

[Naut]

S'fucking stupid. If you don't care about score then why complain if you lose the spell bonus. It doesn't matter to you anyway. And even if you do care about score, shotgunning for spirits is still more important than the spell bonus. There is never any reason to care. The only possible reason is that your trance was just ending as a spell started -- in which case you should've delayed the attack beforehand so it wouldn't do that.

You're right though Azure, people love games telling them they're good at it, regardless of whether or not it's true. "Achievements" and "ranks" do this perfectly, and fools eat it up like it means something. "Congratulations! Your picture changed!

Spoiler:

But guess what, that picture has nothing to do with how well you play the game!!! We're just cock-stroking you a bit so you forget about how shitty you actually are!!!! Yay!!!!!!

"

[Mimachiro]

Meh, maybe, but it's one more thing to try to achieve. Not to mention it'll be more emphasized, since we have spell practice back. :3

[Alfred F. Jones]

S'fucking stupid. If you don't care about score then why complain if you lose the spell bonus. It doesn't matter to you anyway. And even if you do care about score, shotgunning for spirits is still more important than the spell bonus. There is never any reason to care. The only possible reason is that your trance was just ending as a spell started -- in which case you should've delayed the attack beforehand so it wouldn't do that.

You're right though Azure, people love games telling them they're good at it, regardless of whether or not it's true. "Achievements" and "ranks" do this perfectly, and fools eat it up like it means something. "Congratulations! Your picture changed!

Spoiler:

But guess what, that picture has nothing to do with how well you play the game!!! We're just cock-stroking you a bit so you forget about how shitty you actually are!!!! Yay!!!!!!

"

So, Naut, what exactly gives you the right to tell people how they can or can't enjoy Touhou?

[Naut]

I can't stop you from enjoying meaningless text appearing on the screen, I'm just explaining why it is silly to do so in the context of the game. If your only goal is to get that text to appear, then by all means, continue.

[Alfred F. Jones]

No, I don't disagree with your idea. I think cosmetic awards are rather silly, if they reward mediocrity (as I believe). Except I don't think other people are stupid for doing it, and I'm not going to call people morons for not playing the same way I do with the same goals I do. Play Touhou however you want, but don't think that it applies to anyone else, and don't judge others for whatever goals they decide to go for.

[Naut]

I meant the idea of wanting it is "stupid" in the context of the game, not the people going for it. I was raging at the poor logic behind wanting that text since it means nothing when going for the typical touhou goals of 1cc'ing the game or getting a high score. If people still want that text after knowing it means nothing in the context of those goals (which would then mean they have a different goal), then they're welcome to go for it. I just don't want people buying into the stupid idea that it means something within the context of a 1cc or high score.

[Alfred F. Jones]

Your first post struck me as "people shouldn't be playing for (x arbitrary reason), they should be playing for (y arbitrary reason) and everyone who does otherwise is stupid!" But now you have explained, and I do believe that we are in agreement. A 1cc should be everyone's goal, on whatever difficulty they can manage. Everything else is just your preferred icing on the cake.

[Naut]

I apologise for the ambiguity of my wording, I was a bit inflamed when posting it and clearly didn't give it enough thought.

[Sapz]

Your first post struck me as "people shouldn't be playing for (x arbitrary reason), they should be playing for (y arbitrary reason) and everyone who does otherwise is stupid!" But now you have explained, and I do believe that we are in agreement. A 1cc should be everyone's goal, on whatever difficulty they can manage. Everything else is just your preferred icing on the cake.

Somewhat off topic/tangential, but I'd like to add 'getting a high score' as a possible alternative to this. :V

To me, it seems like a 1cc is the first step (in theory); after which, you know your way around the game, and can attempt to compete for score, which usually will bring up the difficulty a few notches (or a lot of notches if you're really going for the top). Obviously, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I remember noticing a sort of circular 'people look to 1ccs as the ultimate goal, so my ultimate goal should be a 1cc' logic going around a while ago. I'd recommend to people to give scoring a serious try rather than writing it off, if you haven't already - you could find it more rewarding than a 1cc.

To you guys scoring in 10D - I'd recommend watching top scoring replays if you haven't already done so. I remember watching one of Heartbeam's a while back and see him get around double the amount of hypers trances compared to my best run as of then. :colonveeplusalpha:

[ふねん1]

Well, I remember having trouble getting Youmu replays to work without desyncing, and supposedly others have seen that too. Plus considering that, as far as I know, she has the highest overall scores for the trial... Hopefully it'll be fixed by the time the full version comes out, but until then it seems people might only be able to research superplays for the other three characters.

And Sapz does hint at a good point. While they are not always optimal, top-ranking replays are typically great for giving you new ideas for playing in general - it's not limited to just survival or scoring. Example, even if your goal is simply survival, finding ways to get more Trances in parts with bomb/life part drops can be tremendously helpful.