[Music] The Roland TTS-1 Remake Project

[Spaztique]

The short version: This is about me making near-perfect remakes of Touhou music with a simple midi softsynth to better understand how to remake ZUN's sounds. Links are below the backstory.

How it got started: My quest to make ZUN-style music led me here to find a few threads on ZUN's equipment and the Touhou Soundfont. I tried the soundfont, but it's a bit buggy whenever I use it. I did some research on the SD-90 and the Hyper Canvas to find they're both made by Roland, they're both discontinued, and that the Hyper Canvas is the predecessor to the Roland TTS-1, the midi table that comes packaged with all of Cakewalk's products. So, I tried running different songs through it to see what results came out, and while some sounds matched, others didn't. The breakthrough came when I encounted a corrupted midi file for "Reach For The Moon, Immortal Smoke", which missed a large chunk of midi data. So, I challenged myself to rebuild the entire song sound-for-sound. I posted the remake in the ZUN-style midi thread, but now I'm about to expand this to a one-song-a-week project.

How it works: I will take the original midi of the selected song and run it through the Roland TTS-1 by itself (with no other synths), remove a large chunk of the midi data (mostly the automation stuff so I can replace it with my own), and then fine tune all of the synth patches. Later, I'll upload tutorials on how to recreate the most common sounds. Based on your feedback, I'll find remedies to common sound problems in future experiments.

Current Songs
1. "Reach For The Moon, Immortal Smoke" - Reconstructing sounds from a corrupt midi.
2. "U.N. Owen Was Her?" - Reconstructing sounds from a standard midi.
3. "Paradise - Deep Mountain" - Drums and plucked strings testing.
4. "Flight Of The Bamboo Cutter - Lunatic Princess" - Layering test. (Suggested by GrumpyPhantom)
5. "Scarlet Beyond A Crimson Dream" - Something short due to being out of town.
6. "Retribution For The Eternal Night ~ Imperishable Night" - Equalization and mixing testing. (Suggested by GrumpyPhantom)
7. "Mystic Oriental Dream ~ Ancient Temple" - Multiple outputs testing.
8. "The Fantastic Legend Of Tohno" - Further multiple output testing
9.  "Diao Ye Zong ~ Withered Leaf" - Organic instrument testing.
10. "Necrofantasia ~ Magical Astronomy Version" - Tenth remix/Synth testing.
11. "Soul As Red As A Ground Cherry" - Analog drum testing/heavier compression testing.
11a. Guest Song: "Shanghai Alice Of Meiji 17" - EP's first major TTS-1 upload.
12. "Bloom Nobly, Cherry Blossoms of Sumizome ~ Border of Life"
13. "Cinderella Cage ~ Kagome Kagome"
14. "Capital City Of Flowers In The Sky"
15. "Shanghai Teahouse ~ Chinese Tea" - Multiband compression test.
16. "Septette For The Dead Princess" - Multiband compression on trumpets test.
17. "Crystallized Silver - More Multiband compression on trumpets testing.
18. "Beloved Tomboyish Daughter"

Still In Queue:
-"Gensokyo Past and Present ~ Flower Land" - A complete remake from scratch. (Suggested by Kips McKipzerson)
-"Retrospective Of Kyoto" - Another remake from scratch. (Suggested by Aoshi)
-"Beloved Tomboyish Daughter"
-"Crystallized Silver"

Tell me what you think, what improvements I should make, and what songs you'd like to hear next.

[DX7.EP]

Already listened to #1 back in the ZUN MIDI thread, and #2 is quite good again!

Commenting on the latter:
IMO an Analog Kit would fit better than the Room Kit, and the strings are a bit too strong (try a Synth Strings derivative with modulation).

As for later songs (anything PoFV Full version and later) I guess creating them from scratch is the only way to go (and that is a royal pain to do without some converter).

Waiting on my copy of Sonar X1 Essential to come in to contribute further....

[Spaztique]

Thanks for the feedback. I just went to compare the different different drum types, and while the Analog Set doesn't work nearly as well, the snares for the Electric Set are pretty close to the original, but only the snares alone. Since drums have been the hardest thing to nail so far, I'll probably either spend extra time on them for the next one (and perhaps try different drum parts on different channels) or simply do "Luna Dial" where I know I have the correct drum patch. For the string type, the Orchestra strings are much, much easier to manipulate sound-wise than the synth strings, but I could rework them for my next experiment. Though, in hindsight, I guess I could've upped the modulation a tad more (current settings are +15 modulation at a rate of +3 with +7 delay, but after rehearing it, I realize I could've pushed it to about +20). As for the volume of the strings, I think it could be just production techniques: to get the sound down, I had to listen to the original a bazillion times, and each time, those strings kept popping out whenever the volume of my strings were too low. Perhaps listening too closely to each song is why I was sensitive to the modulation at +15 when it could heard better after a rest at +20. Next time, I'll probably take a break in production so I can let my ears rest.

[DX7.EP]

Thanks for the feedback. I just went to compare the different different drum types, and while the Analog Set doesn't work nearly as well, the snares for the Electric Set are pretty close to the original, but only the snares alone. Since drums have been the hardest thing to nail so far, I'll probably either spend extra time on them for the next one (and perhaps try different drum parts on different channels) or simply do "Luna Dial" where I know I have the correct drum patch. For the string type, the Orchestra strings are much, much easier to manipulate sound-wise than the synth strings, but I could rework them for my next experiment. Though, in hindsight, I guess I could've upped the modulation a tad more (current settings are +15 modulation at a rate of +3 with +7 delay, but after rehearing it, I realize I could've pushed it to about +20). As for the volume of the strings, I think it could be just production techniques: to get the sound down, I had to listen to the original a bazillion times, and each time, those strings kept popping out whenever the volume of my strings were too low. Perhaps listening too closely to each song is why I was sensitive to the modulation at +15 when it could heard better after a rest at +20. Next time, I'll probably take a break in production so I can let my ears rest.

A good tip for music production: once you finish a work and find it okay right afterwards, wait a day or two before going back to it again. You will often find little (sometimes major) quirks to fix this way. Repeat for several days, a week, etc.

Luna Dial and Lunate Elf are too easy since we already know which drum patch to use :V

Argh, I'm itching to remix the MIDIs now (likely in Logic and its massive software instrument library after some tweaks and/or with a bunch of MIDI VSTis and soundfonts once freaking Sonar arrives)....

[Spaztique]

A good tip for music production: once you finish a work and find it okay right afterwards, wait a day or two before going back to it again. You will often find little (sometimes major) quirks to fix this way. Repeat for several days, a week, etc.

Luna Dial and Lunate Elf are too easy since we already know which drum patch to use :V

Argh, I'm itching to remix the MIDIs now (likely in Logic and its massive software instrument library after some tweaks and/or with a bunch of MIDI VSTis and soundfonts once freaking Sonar arrives)....

I'm going to put a sticky note on my workspace about that. "Think it's good enough now? Just wait a few days!"

Although I'm dedicating this project to the TTS-1, I've had a breakthrough in my experiment with "Paradise - Deep Mountain" by using the Roland Groovesynth (which you'll also be getting in a few days). Unlike the TTS-1, it uses the format of multiple snares as opposed to just a main and an electronic snare, so I can get the drum parts near-perfect. I could have the first loop of the video be with just the TTS-1, and then the second loop have some Roland Groovesynth sounds.

Edit: Just tried it on "Reach For The Moon, Immortal Smoke", and the Jazz set snares work perfectly. Everything else... eh... not so much... So, I tried removing all the TTS-1 snares and all the Groovesynth everything-else, and the combination makes me want to consider uploading a third version of that remake... or perhaps I should tell myself to save that for another experiment (like a "Reach For The Moon" remix made entirely of Groovesynths).

[DX7.EP]

I'm going to put a sticky note on my workspace about that. "Think it's good enough now? Just wait a few days!"

Good thinking. Sometimes I do this with works I didn't touch in years and find some strange and crazy stuff in them.

Although I'm dedicating this project to the TTS-1, I've had a breakthrough in my experiment with "Paradise - Deep Mountain" by using the Roland Groovesynth (which you'll also be getting in a few days). Unlike the TTS-1, it uses the format of multiple snares as opposed to just a main and an electronic snare, so I can get the drum parts near-perfect. I could have the first loop of the video be with just the TTS-1, and then the second loop have some Roland Groovesynth sounds.

Sounds like fun. As for the loops, it's a good idea.
I personally prefer hard-coding the comments into the video itself rather than using annotations (helps the direct downloader types).

On another note, some of the MIDIs play some interesting patches with the VSC-MP1 with the SC-88/Pro wavetable (notably Remilia's theme, where the drums are set to the Dance Set (#27).)

EDIT: I'd save the GrooveSynth version for a separate release, particularly if it soulnds noticeably different from the original TTS-1 mix. Now I really can't wait...why did I ask for standard shipping....
EDIT2: There is at least one forum user (KimikoMuffin, to be more specific) who has an actual SD-90 module. Granted, with that completely accurate versions can be made, but where's the fun in that? :V

[Anunsew]

I'll just comment on your work for UN Owen.

The String Ensembles sounds too soft, so is the Distortion Guitar. I don't know if it is what you intended, but I just wanted to point it out.
Also, the Drawbar organ at the chorus is unbalanced with the Square. The Drawbar organ makes good harmonics with the Square wave, making that nice high-pitched sound.

Sorry if I sound so nitpicky, but you music is pretty good.

[Spaztique]

I'll just comment on your work for UN Owen.

The String Ensembles sounds too soft, so is the Distortion Guitar. I don't know if it is what you intended, but I just wanted to point it out.
Also, the Drawbar organ at the chorus is unbalanced with the Square. The Drawbar organ makes good harmonics with the Square wave, making that nice high-pitched sound.

Sorry if I sound so nitpicky, but you music is pretty good.

Nitpicky is good: it's how I can fix things. I wasn't even aware there was a drawbar organ in there.

I think it's official: once I'm done with one or two more experiments, I'll revisit U.N. Owen (unless someone else can remake it before I can on a similar midi table).

[DX7.EP]

Nitpicky is good: it's how I can fix things. I wasn't even aware there was a drawbar organ in there.

I think it's official: once I'm done with one or two more experiments, I'll revisit U.N. Owen (unless someone else can remake it before I can on a similar midi table).

Another example of the drawbar is in Necrofantasia, with a similar application as in U. N. Owen.

I have tried tweaking Necrofantasia on the Hyper Canvas but it is hard to get the organ right. I'd suggest that one, but any work goes.

Now to make that crazy DaiZUNke Senouwatari-style GG/BlazBlue/Touhou crossover remix....

[Romantique Tp]

There are no organs in necrofantasia. Use Saw Waves instead.

[DX7.EP]

There are no organs in necrofantasia. Use Saw Waves instead.

Really? IIRC the MIDIs had Drawbar Organs put in, and they played in conjunction with two other Sawtooth wave tracks to serve as the melody.

[Anunsew]

I have tried tweaking Necrofantasia on the Hyper Canvas but it is hard to get the organ right. I'd suggest that one, but any work goes.
Now to make that crazy DaiZUNke Senouwatari-style GG/BlazBlue/Touhou crossover remix....

I guess suggesting Patch 17 of the THfont soundfont is out of the question?
It's what I used in my remix of U.N Owen, and it turned out nicely and close to the original version. It's a bit messy to use though.

[DX7.EP]

I guess suggesting Patch 17 of the THfont soundfont is out of the question?
It's what I used in my remix of U.N Owen, and it turned out nicely and close to the original version. It's a bit messy to use though.

Well, THFont is out of the question due to its bugginess (for the OP). In my case, it's due to having about 20 other SoundFonts and 4-5 VSTis loaded as well, leaving little memory for THFont (I blame 32-bit programming).

[DX7.EP]

(I don't like double-posting, but this wouldn't fit with my previous post....)

Finally got Sonar X1 Essential today and installing it under Win7 x64. After it finishes (and VSTi compatibility is tested), I may also be able to contribute to said project or start off another one entirely (Logic remixes perhaps?)

[Spaztique]

(I don't like double-posting, but this wouldn't fit with my previous post....)

Finally got Sonar X1 Essential today and installing it under Win7 x64. After it finishes (and VSTi compatibility is tested), I may also be able to contribute to said project or start off another one entirely (Logic remixes perhaps?)

First off, a Logic Remix project would be really awesome.

Second, if you have any problems with the midi resetting any changes made in the TTS-1, just remove a bulk of the non-note midi date. To remove any midi data from a track, just look for the midi Event List (in Sonar 7, it's under View) and remove all non-note events after playing the track once. Then, just unlink all of the patches. After that, feel free to add your own automation.

To test it all out (assuming your version of the midi works), here's the settings I have for "Reach For The Moon" without mastering (note: don't count the tracks not being used):
First track: Piano 2 st. with no changes. 120 volume, 0 chorus, 62 reverb.
Second Track: Slap Bass 1 with +8 bass. 100 volume, 0 chorus, 40 reverb.
Third Track: Piano 1 with no changes. 100 volume, 0 chorus, 51 reverb.
Fourth Track: Electric Piano 1 with no changes. 100 volume, 0 chorus, 40 reverb.
Fifth Track: Orchestra with no changes. 110 volume, 0 chorus, 40 reverb.
Sixth Track: Steel Guitar with no changes. 100 volume, 0 chorus, 40 reverb.
Seventh Track: Standard Set with +3 treble/mid/bass. 127 volume, 0 chorus, 118 reverb. Side Stick tuned down -1 coarse. Acoustic Snare tuned up +4 coarse, -35 fine. Electric Snare tuned up +1 coarse, +29 fine (but I have a remedy coming up for a better snare just below).
Eighth Track: Polysynth with no changes. 84 volume, 0 chorus, 64 reverb.
Ninth Track: Trumpet with +8 character, +3 bass, +5 mid, +10 treble, with vibrato at a rate of +3, +13 depth, and +9 delay. 121 volume, 0 chorus, 100 reverb.
Tenth Track: Saw Wave with +7 character, +7 resonance, and +9 treble. 104 volume, 0 chorus, 83 reverb.
Eleventh Track: Carillon with +18 character, +2 mid, +4 treble, and +22 release. 124 volume, 0 chorus, 127 reverb.
Twelfth Track:  Celesta with no changes. 94 volume, 0 chorus, 40 reverb.
Snare Fix: Make a new midi track, then got into the TTS-1 and set one of the channels to a new drum (in this case, the Power Set). Cut the Electronic Snare from the original drum kit and then paste it onto the new channel with the new snare and transpose it down by 2. For my test snare settings, I have it turned up by +5 coarse, -27 fine, with +8 bass, +7 mid, +9 treble, and a channel reverb level of 112 and volume of 107.
Master Settings: I upped the System Polyphony to 70 and overall Reverb Effect to 70.

For a mastering chain, here's what I'd recommend:
1. Sonitus FX EQ: Highpass at -37 hz to get rid of the muddier bass sounds.
2. Studioverb 2: To get a wider sound. Since I'm more of a PerfectSpace guy, experiment with it how you'd like.
3. UpStereo: Optional, but free. Widens the sound (but it's best to keep it around 55% wideness), boosts the signal, and can give a bump to bass and treble.
4. Cakewalk's Dynamic's Processor: The Final Mix setting, but I'd keep the compressor ration at 4.0 and release at 242 ms. (This is a copy of what I use in Vintage Channel 64). For threshold, I have it at -20 for a more crisp sound, but this requires the recording input on the master channel at around -19.6 to -20.5. (If you did not pick a preset with a master channel, there should be something in the manual on how to make auxiliary channels for master channels).
5. Boost 11: The final peak limiter. If things are still coming in quiet, feel free to crank this up. My settings at +6.0 boost with an output limit of -1.3 db. If your final mix peaks at around -0.1 to -0.3 db, it shouldn't be noticeable, but if things begin to feel squashed, lower input boost. If you're peaking at +0.1 boost, the input volume needs to be turned down (this is another reason why I having recording inputs at low volumes).

Hope that helps you out, and have fun!

[DX7.EP]

Thanks for the technical info! Already liking how the user interface is similar to the Logic one.

The VSTis didn't work under 7, so it's back to XP and <3GB RAM (even though I have 8GB installed 32-bit Windows can't recognize over 3.5GB, and that's with 4GB installed)....

And as for Logic remixing, I tend to do this with some of my works anyway (just with the massive library of stock instruments), so it shouldn't be a problem.

Now to test audio fidelity (WDM vs. ASIO4ALL), and then the TTS-1 with Mokou's MIDI.

And as for mastering I intend to do that in Logic after bouncing all the tracks to individual 192kHz 32-bit channels (provided Sonar will let me)

EDIT: Holy moly that's quite accurate. Quick question though - where's the Transpose Track option? It'll make it all the easier to get the right pitch if I'm using the official MIDIs....
EDIT2: Tried with the official MIDI and even with the Event deletions the effects don't apply to every track. Strange.

[Spaztique]

Thanks for the technical info! Already liking how the user interface is similar to the Logic one.

The VSTis didn't work under 7, so it's back to XP and <3GB RAM (even though I have 8GB installed 32-bit Windows can't recognize over 3.5GB, and that's with 4GB installed)....

And as for Logic remixing, I tend to do this with some of my works anyway (just with the massive library of stock instruments), so it shouldn't be a problem.

Now to test audio fidelity (WDM vs. ASIO4ALL), and then the TTS-1 with Mokou's MIDI.

And as for mastering I intend to do that in Logic after bouncing all the tracks to individual 192kHz 32-bit channels (provided Sonar will let me)

EDIT: Holy moly that's quite accurate. Quick question though - where's the Transpose Track option? It'll make it all the easier to get the right pitch if I'm using the official MIDIs....

Transpose should be under the Process menu.

As for the mastering thing, there is audio bouncing, but I tend to apply all my effects to the main effects bus during production (I switch them on and off depending on what I'm listening for).

[DX7.EP]

Cool, that makes things easier. I was asking the audio bouncing thing since I heard some soundcards don't allow for certain export settings (and I'm on an integrated one, so....)

While it does sound somewhat accurate, my primary issue now is that sometimes the MIDI tracks will default to ZUN's MIDI settings even after deleting the events in Event Manager. This happens when I try to play it again after stopping it.

Oh, and is there an on-screen keyboard mode? I don't want to have to plug in my LPK25 or Keyrig just to play with notes....

...and I noticed that I'll still have to manually adjust MIDI settings via SysEx for my Yamaha VSTis which don't have a decent interface to toy configurations with. Damnit.

[Spaztique]

While it does sound somewhat accurate, my primary issue now is that sometimes the MIDI tracks will default to ZUN's MIDI settings even after deleting the events in Event Manager. This happens when I try to play it again after stopping it.

Classic case of the midi channels defaulting to the banks set up by Zun. To clear it, go into the Track Inspector (the shortcut key is "i"), click on the midi track you want to stay put, and set the Bank to none (or ---) and the patch to none. This is what I meant earlier by "unlink all the patches".

Oh, and is there an on-screen keyboard mode? I don't want to have to plug in my LPK25 or Keyrig just to play with notes....

Not that I'm aware of, but the piano roll is all you really need. It should be under the "Views" menu.

...and I noticed that I'll still have to manually adjust MIDI settings via SysEx for my Yamaha VSTis which don't have a decent interface to toy configurations with. Damnit.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details for this one. Which VSTis?

[DX7.EP]

Classic case of the midi channels defaulting to the banks set up by Zun. To clear it, go into the Track Inspector (the shortcut key is "i"), click on the midi track you want to stay put, and set the Bank to none (or ---) and the patch to none. This is what I meant earlier by "unlink all the patches".

Ah, I get it now. It was up the whole time too on the left part of the screen, derp.

Not that I'm aware of, but the piano roll is all you really need. It should be under the "Views" menu.

I really use the OSK for previewing instruments. I have things against piano rolls (and the lag I get from dragging notes doesn't help either).

I'm a bit fuzzy on the details for this one. Which VSTis?

S-YXG50 and SGP2 (converted S-YXG2006LE from MidRadio Player 7). The former has a lacking interface (can't set instruments from the VST interface) while the latter doesn't have any interface to work with and a hard-set 32-note polyphony limit (I just run 4 iterations to get around this). So to adjust instruments on said VSTis I have to do them from the DAW (but not all support this) or through SysEx messages.

Haven't tested SoundFonts yet (using sfz+ VSTi to load them).
Also found out some interesting choices in Necrofantasia (or at least it defaulted to a Hammond Organ)...I'd investigate but I need some rest.

[DX7.EP]

More progress! This is so damn fun.

Have a somewhat decent version of Necrofantasia and a slightly better Oriental Dark Flight done. I think I figured out how to make the warmer pianos in some of the songs.

Also, I finally got the lousy VSTis in question (S-YXG50 and Edirol VSC-MP1) working under Win7 (under OpenMPT), meaning it's time for another uninstall and reinstall of Sonar, this time on 64bit Win7.

[Spaztique]

"Paradise ~ Deep Mountain" is done! Link's in the original post.

Also, EP, how's progress going on your end?

[DX7.EP]

Sonar works successfully on Win7 with all my VSTis in working order (though Super Quartet and Orchestral demand a reinstall, but they still work).

Created a meh Necrofantasia. The organs are very hard to get right.
Oriental Dark Flight is almost there, but the drums are off since SD-90 drums aren't used beyond PCB.
Also had a pretty good version of the EoSD Stage 1 theme (A Soul As Bright as a Red Cherry), but the beginning electric pianos and the bass punch aren't quite there yet.

I'm trying to spend time with these but of course I'm also busy with uni work.

[Spaztique]

Just started on Lunatic Princess under suggestion from GrumpyPhantom, and I've got everything but the trumpets and the synth nailed.  The trumpets are supposed to be layered to create a thicker sound, but it seems that a great bulk of the IN midi files I have are messed up, so I don't have any default volume levels. Wish me luck, folks!

[DX7.EP]

Yet more progress on Necrofantasia (nailed the last part's melody), and although I switched the organs to saw waves it is only marginally more effective.

New update on VSTis - S-YXG50 and SGP2 work fine...under GM mode . The lack of a functional VST interface and Sonar's inability to force them to use XG patch banks (or at least manual MSB/LSB control over the patch browser) instead lead me to even more rage.

[Spaztique]

Lunatic Princess is now up! At first, it was the trumpets that scared me, but when it came down to the wire, it was the production/layering that really scared me.

[DX7.EP]

Listened to both Lunatic Princess and Paradise ~ Deep Mountain, and I am very impressed! They sound great!

Necrofantasia would be going along well, but catch is that (1) it turns out GrooveSynth is not included or hidden somewhere in X1 (but GroovePlayer is...derp), and (2) my Win7 install has crashed for now, so I'm stuck with my less-complete Logic version (not quite accurate ATM).

As for the damned Yamaha VSTis, I've concluded it's time to work back on an XP VM, where I can at least use the S-YXG50 WDM softsynth and hope that Sonar picks it up and assigns it the XG patch bank. Of course, latency is a HUGE problem with VMs....

[Kips McKipzerson]

Have you ever thought about doing Inanimate Dream, Or Gensokyo Past and Present ~ Flower Land? If not, I'm requesting it now :V

[Spaztique]

Have you ever thought about doing Inanimate Dream, Or Gensokyo Past and Present ~ Flower Land? If not, I'm requesting it now :V

I take it somebody's a Yuka fan. Since I'm going out of town this weekend, I'll do Gensokyo Past and Present ~ Flower Land the week after this week.

[Kips McKipzerson]

Fuck yeah.

also yeah i'm a pretty huge yuuka fan.