The Ballad of Videogamer: Aspiring Programmer, Beggar, Idiot

[Esifex]

Heated discussion != drama, or at least the drama that would 'tear this place up'. Sometimes things aren't all happiness and rainbows, but there is value in these kinds of discussions as well.

Take a look at this thread. Several people in it are a step and a half away from considering themselves being attacked, and when that happens, people defend themselves and their views jealously. Especially on the internet. I sit around and watch my friends' social groups get torn apart by miscommunication and little, tiny things, and I'm tired of watching it happen. MotK is the closest thing to a social group that I have, and I'm not gonna sit around when at the very least, I could try my damnedest to get people to calm down.

If you all really want to discuss and debate this, then at least lets all take a breather and come back to it tomorrow. When everyone has taken a step back and settled down a bit.

[Ubiquitial]

Take a look at this thread. Several people in it are a step and a half away from considering themselves being attacked, and when that happens, people defend themselves and their views jealously. Especially on the internet. I sit around and watch my friends' social groups get torn apart by miscommunication and little, tiny things, and I'm tired of watching it happen. MotK is the closest thing to a social group that I have, and I'm not gonna sit around when at the very least, I could try my damnedest to get people to calm down.

If you all really want to discuss and debate this, then at least lets all take a breather and come back to it tomorrow. When everyone has taken a step back and settled down a bit.

That does make sense. Calm headed discussion is always better, and I like the questions being asked here.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh, this is still going? Well.

Do you think he was consciously spiting you, or was he just stupid and felt he was violated?

I dunno, I can't view that thread, but it seems that it was confusion and fear that drove him, not hate.

Go check the thread at the other forum I linked again. He had been banned on other forums in the past and has bandodged with malicious intent and come out publicly and admitted this malicious intent. Given how many times he has bandodged here, I don't think it's at all a stretch to assume the situations were very similar, if not exactly the same.

[Unassuming Squid]

Take a look at this thread. Several people in it are a step and a half away from considering themselves being attacked, and when that happens, people defend themselves and their views jealously. Especially on the internet. I sit around and watch my friends' social groups get torn apart by miscommunication and little, tiny things, and I'm tired of watching it happen. MotK is the closest thing to a social group that I have, and I'm not gonna sit around when at the very least, I could try my damnedest to get people to calm down.

If you all really want to discuss and debate this, then at least lets all take a breather and come back to it tomorrow. When everyone has taken a step back and settled down a bit.

I would like to say that I wholeheartedly agree with this, personally.

Regardless, though, it's done now. I think we can drop it.

[Suikama]

get torn apart by miscommunication and little, tiny things

Too slow E-mouse

[Alfred F. Jones]

This will drop down if you let it drop down. Locking a thread to stifle conversation doesn't sit well with me. I want to see if your collective commitment to peace is strong enough that we don't have to lock this thread.

Kilga will probably laugh at me for putting so much faith in the community. So prove me right.

[Ubiquitial]

Oh, this is still going? Well.

Go check the thread at the other forum I linked again. He had been banned on other forums in the past and has bandodged with malicious intent and come out publicly and admitted this malicious intent. Given how many times he has bandodged here, I don't think it's at all a stretch to assume the situations were very similar, if not exactly the same.

Alright. I was wrong, he was a dick, then. But I won't concede the point that mocking him is still wrong. Don't stoop to his level.

[Iryan]

Do you think he was consciously spiting you, or was he just stupid and felt he was violated?

I dunno, I can't view that thread, but it seems that it was confusion and fear that drove him, not hate.

Even if he wasn't actively trying to cause trouble, which is debatable, it is still nothing more than the difference between committing a murder and running over a dozen people with your car because you could neither be bothered to stay at the speed limit nor to hit the brakes even though the collision was obvious to you every single time.  :derp:

Edit: too many posts, too many posts, everywhere, too many posts.

[Kilgamayan]

That's fine, and you're certainly welcome to your opinion. Just do be aware that it's incredibly unlikely to change anything, as cold and callous as that sounds.

[Nobu]

Take a look at this thread. Several people in it are a step and a half away from considering themselves being attacked, and when that happens, people defend themselves and their views jealously.

I suppose. I've gotten into much worse spats with Ammy/TSO in the past, so in comparison this didn't seem nearly as bad. :V It's probably a testament to our cohesion that we still consider each other friends to this day.

Or they secretly hate me and just like to keep up appearances. :ohdear:

Too slow E-mouse

Hey you're banned stop posting

This will drop down if you let it drop down. Locking a thread to stifle conversation doesn't sit well with me. I want to see if your collective commitment to peace is strong enough that we don't have to lock this thread.

Peace? Ahahah, sure...

* Nobuko puts down the battle axe sheepishly.

[helvetica]

I suppose. I've gotten into much worse spats with Ammy/TSO in the past, so in comparison this didn't seem nearly as bad. :V It's probably a testament to our cohesion that we still consider each other friends to this day.

Or they secretly hate me and just like to keep up appearances. :ohdear:

Oh god he figured out my secret :ohdear:

[Tengukami]

I suppose. I've gotten into much worse spats with Ammy/TSO in the past, so in comparison this didn't seem nearly as bad. :V It's probably a testament to our cohesion that we still consider each other friends to this day.

Or they secretly hate me and just like to keep up appearances. :ohdear:

You know I don't hate you, and that I respect you a lot. Your words, though, that our motivation to laugh at this malicious dude comes from the same place as sexism and racism? Yeah, that was a tad over the top. That's all I was addressing. We're still good.

[helvetica]

You know I don't hate you, and that I respect you a lot. Your words, though, that our motivation to laugh at this malicious dude comes from the same place as sexism and racism? Yeah, that was a tad over the top. That's all I was addressing. We're still good.

Maybe to you but I still hate him

[Seian Verian]

Okay. I'm a bit late to this part of the thread too <_<; Anyway...

Regarding the "Respect is earned, not given" I would like to say that I agree with this- To SOME degree. There IS a certain respect that you should give even strangers who as far as you know have done nothing to "earn" it. Would anyone here call going out of your way to mock someone you know absolutely nothing about anything but wrong? However, respect CAN be further earned... But in this case, it's the opposite. This guy has done everything to make it so that any respect that could be given to him would be unwarranted. He has shown both malice and stupidity, and absolutely nothing to redeem it.

So I, personally, even not having been touched by his actions personally, do not believe that someone like him deserves any ounce of respect. He's shown himself incapable of learning from his mistakes, and malicious whenever anything doesn't go his way. You can say that he's a human being, blahblahblah, but so were the worst and most vicious monsters to ever exist. The only thing that anyone can be judged by is their choices and their reasons for them... The only reasons I see for his choices are egomania, stupidity, and malice, and the choices themselves did nothing but add clutter and annoy.

Will you say that someone like this deserves any respect? If so, fine. I don't. And I sincerely doubt that my feelings, or that of anyone else, will be changed by anything short of him showing that he can be redeemed. And that's not going to happen, not here anyway, so what else is there to discuss exactly?

[Iryan]

Maybe to you but I still hate him

[Kilgamayan]

Regarding the "Respect is earned, not given" I would like to say that I agree with this- To SOME degree. There IS a certain respect that you should give even strangers who as far as you know have done nothing to "earn" it. Would anyone here call going out of your way to mock someone you know absolutely nothing about anything but wrong?

Well, in a case like that, I'd say a person has "earned" respect by not yet demonstrating they're a total fuckstick in some capacity. If they keep not demonstrating this, fantastic! If they do start demonstrating this, then they cease earning that respect.

Respect being "given" in this case is meant more as a "it comes automatically regardless of circumstances".

[Esifex]

I respect people on a number of facets.

To use the source of my labor-related rage, we'll go ahead and use my former assistant manager, Keith, as an example.

As a person, he's a pretty cool guy. He's a Star Trek fan like me (maybe more-so, but whatever), so we get along pretty alright in this regard.

As a father, he's earned a lot of my respect. His son from a prior marriage is 21 and off to the Army now, just like he was in the Army, so you COULD say he's leading by example... if it weren't for the fact that he lost custody of his son a long time ago. Even though, the impact he's had as a father was that profound.
He's also adopting the son of his new wife - again, another kid from another marriage.

Major props to him as a person, and a father.

As a manager, he's terrible. None of the people that work under him can get along with him, he's constantly looking for things to punish people for. He has a bloated sense of self-worth and let the power of his position get to his head. He assumes that because he pulls great sales that he's a good manager, when in truth that just makes him a good hood tech. His refusal to acknowledge this has led to him being passed over for getting his own store, and he still has trouble with end-of-day closing procedures.

I worked under him, as one of those people who couldn't get along with him. I had - and have, still - no respect for him as a manager. I still chat with him on STO, and if he were to invite me and my brother over to his place some weekend, I'd pack my shit up and head over.

Since this is the internet, we don't have personal interaction like that to help us break things up, so we have to assess and judge things in different categories. For example, a persons worth here can be measured by several things; their sense of humor, how well their tastes correspond with your own, the quality of their posts, the contribution they bring to the table.

VG555 has successfully managed to negate just about every measurement I have for an internet acquaintence. I daresay he's done the same for a lot of people he's encounted so far.

[Ryuu]

we'll go ahead and use my former assistant manager, Keith, as an example.

Did I ever tell y'all about the time mah buddy Keith tried to make fireworks?

[JT]

Your words, though, that our motivation to laugh at this malicious dude comes from the same place as sexism and racism? Yeah, that was a tad over the top.

I think Nobu was talking about psychological dehumanization, in which case he's actually somewhat right. I don't think he was implying that picking on this guy is somehow morally equivalent with racism.

[Iryan]

Schadenfreude.

I am usually not for it, but it is at least partially a genetic thing, some people are more for it than others, usually proportionally to how much the person in question has done to garner their discomfort with him, so yeah.

[Kilgamayan]

I think Nobu was talking about psychological dehumanization, in which case he's actually somewhat right. I don't think he was implying that picking on this guy is somehow morally equivalent with racism.

Maybe not directly, but I personally don't see a reason to cite those specific things in favor of simply citing the base of "psychological dehumanization" unless one is trying to passive-aggressively backhandedly accuse someone of being on the same level as those things.

[Esifex]

HEY.

What the fuck did I say.

I'm watching you, lot.

[Suikama]

I'm watching you, lot.

[Iryan]

Maybe not directly, but I personally don't see a reason to cite those specific things in favor of simply citing the base of "psychological dehumanization" unless one is trying to passive-aggressively backhandedly accuse someone of being on the same level as those things.

Maybe because those are some of the worse things that these emotions have caused, and thus are best for examplifiying why he doesn't like it. That is most likely the intent, and Nobu didn't realize that putting it that way would sound as insulting as it came of as.

Hanlon's razor, me heartie.

[Tengukami]

Hell, I don't even get the 'dehumanizing' part. Maybe Vgamer is a swell guy in person. But his behavior and malicious intent here invites laughter. It's based on his actions as a human being, in other words; no one is stripping him of his humanity, or making fun of him for any reason other than his actions. That's why it's off base to compare this to those other things, and I wish he would understand why that's a bit insulting. Also, I prefer no apology at all to the 'sorry you took a kneejerk reaction and were offended' non-apology.

[Nobu]

Hell, I don't even get the 'dehumanizing' part. Maybe Vgamer is a swell guy in person. But his behavior and malicious intent here invites laughter. It's based on his actions as a human being, in other words; no one is stripping him of his humanity, or making fun of him for any reason other than his actions.
That's why it's off base to compare this to those other things, and I wish he would understand why that's a bit insulting. Also, I prefer no apology at all to the 'sorry you took a kneejerk reaction and were offended' non-apology.

When it comes down to it, the sum of human experiences and behaviors boil down to comparitively fewer base elements. Love. Hate. Anger. Fear. Joy. Sadness. Contempt.

Making fun of people is one thing, but I get bothered when I witness strong contempt being expressed by myself or others. I won't name names, except I will say that Ammy is not one of those people so he won't keep thinking i'm trying to come down on him personally. You certainly can't speak for everyone however, and contemptuous attitudes can be found everywhere, far beyond the scope of this thread. So do I think all people who express contempt for something are terrible people? No. Do I think that if you feel contempt for someone/something, that puts you on the same level as a bigot, racist, or murderer? No.

Does it make me sad to think about how we can feel such feelings of contempt, and think that this is the same feeling that leads to terrible atrocities? Yes. Did I get reminded of this when I skimmed through this thread earlier today? Yes. Do I feel like I need to apologize for making these thoughts known? No.

Though I will apologize if I wasn't clearer, because these things always seem to boil down to a miscommunication, especially between the two of us Ammy. :/

[Serp]

I can understand how the sight of people being mocked and arguably dehumanized could make a person uncomfortable.  I don't think that our actions were immoral, though.  I think that everyone here has the wisdom to stop short of actually violating this guy's rights as a human being, and I don't believe that making fun of him is anything close to that line.  Or are you filled with that same sense of moral outrage when you see a politician or celebrity mocked just as badly if not worse on national TV?

[Drake]

guys this was supposed to be fun

[Serp]

Hey, I don't know about you, but I find ethical debates fun too.

[helvetica]

I don't even see how this is dehumanizing or "contemptuous".  The guy was a liar and a bully and a stuck up ass.  He was directly hostile to anyone who dared to tell him he was doing something wrong and treated people like tools for his amusement and needs.  If you want to talk about dehumanizing, he was the one that was treating everyone with contempt and treating us like his personal slaves.

All that happened is he was exposed for what he did.  Dehumanizing would be to strip someone of their dignity and humanity for no fault of their own.  Knocking down the ego of an inflated ass is not stripping them of their humanity.  How having fun with someone who was a major pain in the ass is even remotely on the same level as a real racist or other severely prejudiced person is beyond me.

And stop beating around the bush and just spit out who you're "morally outraged" at.  Getting kind of tired of your passive-aggressive snipes and vague accusations.