MotK Mafioso Mafia! Over

[UncertainJakutten]

Worse lurker, true. But does that make him worse overall? Honestly, I'm voting Alice not just for lurking, but because he also had pretty bad content when he was here.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Kefit's only post was a bandwagon jump and a small case on Kilga based on meta, which isn't exactly good. Alice is really iffy though.

Regardless, I still don't feel that great about lynching either over two people we already have decent cases on. Can't seem to shake off the feeling it's a distraction.

[Chaore]

Also, as hypocritical as this is given how I acted yesterday, I really think we need to cut to the vitriol here. Take a time out and have a group hug or something.

But! Rou! Who do we hug.

Regardless, I still don't feel that great about lynching either over two people we already have decent cases on. Can't seem to shake off the feeling it's a distraction.

I've pointed this out as well. It really means nothing until we know what it's a distraction to or from.

[FinnKaenbyou]

But! Rou! Who do we hug.

Everyone. Just because we want the scumteam to die doesn't mean we don't love them! :3

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Vote: Rou for trying to lure us into a false sense of security.

[Kefit]

I'm here I'm here. Sorry, I've been really busy the past couple of days. Weekends tend to be the busiest time for me specifically because I take care of all my school obligations during the week so that I am unfettered to devote my weekends entirely to social outings.

Honestly guys I'm a bit lost. This day has seen giant shifts from UK vs Rou to Zent and Serela openly trying to train each other to "omg the only choice is lurker genocide." That last change is particularly baffling - with one post from Rat, almost every player dropped the Zent and Serela case entirely to chase after the crap shoot of lurker lynches.

Anyway, I need some time to reread the thread and try to put something together in my head. The antagonism and lack of focus made that somewhat difficult in my catch-up read.

[Serela]

I need to reread the thread as well. But for now, I think I'm gonna ##Unvote; looking back, it was more of a OMGUS then anything else. I don't seriously think Zent is scum (although I'd go for the idea), and lynching a dumbtown is a waste of time. Even if it's really dumb town. Seriously, Zent went "okay I'm not going to use logic and just going to vote Serela because people are suspicious of that person"; and that's without inferring, it's pretty much exactly what he said.

I'm not going to just throw a vote down on Alice for lurking (although the lurklurk and encouraging a L-2 wagon without even voting for it looks pretty scummy), I'd rather wait to see Alice's response post first. Or, the lack of response post, and subsequent modkill.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

iirc Alice didn't actually encourage a L-2 wagon, he only said he preferred it over Zak. But I haven't read that post in a while so yeah

Why are you encouraging a modkill? We won't know Alice's flip until the end of the day, and if he flips town, then the modkill works against us.

[Furienify]

The only reason you guys are having to prod me for content at this point is because I was joining everyone else a few minutes back and just taking a break from the game for a day to cool down. Which is great. I don't see why you guys get so bothered by this stuff, it's just Mafia. I figured we're all allowed our fair share of paranoia and mistrust and negativity, since that's what the game's about.

That said, I'm comfortable lynching lurkers, but it doesn't seem like a very effective tactic. Can't we find scum by looking at the participants? Wouldn't our chances and cases be stronger then? If I'd have to vote, I'd agree with UK (!) here - lack of content. But for now I want to take a look at Neo for a bit.

[Serela]

iirc Alice didn't actually encourage a L-2 wagon, he only said he preferred it over Zak. But I haven't read that post in a while so yeah

Why are you encouraging a modkill? We won't know Alice's flip until the end of the day, and if he flips town, then the modkill works against us.

Good point. Although the main point was he didn't actually do anything with his vote at the time where it could make a big difference; Whether Zak or Zent is lynched, that is. Especially considering that if Alice had votechanged to Zent, Zent would have been L-1, which IMO would have made it more likely for Alice to obtain his/her desired lynch.

And I'm not encouraging a modkill, I just said that I'd rather wait for a response post before throwing a vote onto Alice; and if there ISN'T a response post from Alice, that means there's a modkill, where my vote wouldn't matter anyway. So until Alice posts/is killed, I don't see a need to vote on him/her.

[Kefit]

First off, I'm gonna just ignore Rou v. UK. It's a giant wall of senseless muk. Come on guys, I thought we all promised to be good kids after the wonderment that was Himelander.

Anyway, I don't buy into the lurker hate. First off, because I am one of them (layl). Second off, because Alice and I are established lurkers, at least for the first day or two. But what I really find unsettling is the sudden way in which the lurker hate has come about. All it took was one vigorous post denouncing lurkers from Rat for town to flip flop. In fact, Rat's stance here bugs me a lot, as it's a stark contrast from the rest of his posts this game.

Throughout d1, Rat forcefully chased after Zent for what seem largely like noobish mistakes. I think that Kilga put it best when he stated that the case against Zent relies upon Zent being a GENIUS CRIMINAL MASTERMIND. The fact of the matter is, every game I have played in has had problems with town going after noob rather than scum players. Hell, every game I have played has been lost by town largely due to this mistake! We need to cut this out if we want to avoid yet another MotK Assured Scum Win(tm). If nothing else, Zent's helpless floundering, especially since the start of d2, only reinforces my belief that he is noob town. If he was scum then he would at least have some friends to help him out or to tell him what to do. He would have friends to tell him to just ignore all the senseless antagonism.

Moving on to d2, Rat starts by throwing a vote on to Alice while stating that:

Zent remains a solid contender for my vote today. Zilch has changed on that front.

The next couple of pages of posts are taken up Zent vs Serela, and see the emergence of a Serela wagon to compete with Zent's. Yet, with all this focus on Zent, Rat's next post is a forceful call for lurker genocide. Why has he suddenly placed the Zent case by the side after everyone spent so much time discussing it? Why does Rat insist that lurker lynching is "not really up for debate?" What change on the Zent front prompted this shift?

As I said earlier, I don't buy that lurking caused this shift, especially on the part of established d1 and d2 lurkers. But something else DID change between Rat's two posts: a forceful wagon on Serela emerged. Rat forcing a change of subject is the perfect means to subtly deconstruct this wagon, even if it means giving his dubious Zent case a bit of slack. Besides, he can always come back to Zent later if he needs to, as he pointed out himself!

This interpretation relies on Serela and Rat being connected in some way, most likely with both being scum. And you know what? I'm comfortable with Serela's scumminess. Sure, like Zent, some of his play can be excused on the basis of noobishness. But he is far more collected and composed with his posts and movements. He lacks the floundering that is characteristic of a helpless town noob thrown alone in front of a highly antagonistic panel of scum hunters. I cannot grant Serela pardon in my mind in the same way I have Zent.

My heart tells me to ##Vote: Rat. I recognize that this game needs hammers if town wants to get anywhere, so barring any major developments I will remain open to switching to Serela if needed to assure a lynch for the day.

[Serela]

This interpretation relies on Serela and Rat being connected in some way, most likely with both being scum. And you know what? I'm comfortable with Serela's scumminess. Sure, like Zent, some of his play can be excused on the basis of noobishness. But he is far more collected and composed with his posts and movements. He lacks the floundering that is characteristic of a helpless town noob thrown alone in front of a highly antagonistic panel of scum hunters. I cannot grant Serela pardon in my mind in the same way I have Zent.[/quote]
So, being smarter then the average newbie is reason to label me as scum? I understand why I'm not granted pardon because of it it, but it's most of the reason you're accusing me of scumminess in the first place.

The rest of your reasoning for me being scum is that Rat changed the subject and managed to stop a growing wagon on me. Of course, this doesn't apply unless we assume both Rat and I are scum, and as I said; the rest of your case on me is just "better then the average noob".

Heck, even I'm surprised my wagon was dismissed so quickly the moment Rat becomes HITLER OF LURKERS, and how quickly everyone jumped on this lurker genocide thing.

I do think it's a bit strange how Rat completely turned onto this new thing after being so vigorously ZENT MUST DIE, but then again, just beforehand it was pretty much established that Zent is a ridiculously dumb player at the moment, and certainly doesn't seem to have scumbuddies helping him in any way. Plus the fact

he can always come back to Zent later if he needs to, as he pointed out himself!

[Serela]

Err, that first paragraph is missing a

. As you can see by the

at the end. It's the semifinal paragraph of Kefit's post, as you can see.

[Serela]

aslkdgjkalfgsdf and then I derply put [/quote] in and make a Quotebox appear

[The ⑨th Zentillion]

Hohum.

##Unvote
##Vote: Alice

Suspicious lack of activity in the latter half of Day 1 except to get Zak, who turned out to be a townie, lynched.
Suspicious lack of activity for all of Day 2 so far, unless he makes his case now that he's been poked.
Appears to be suspect by/for a number of people.
And trying to quell the illogical me vs NeoSerela thing for our sanity.

Though, really, I should just get lynched on account of my crappy playing and focusing on Alice means more of me. :V

[FinnKaenbyou]

Oh wow. So today I've been convinced to move from my vote on Carth, to Furienify, to Neo, to Kefit, and now I'm considering going back to Carth again.

...Aw, screw it. My heart said Carth at the start of the day for his jumping on the easy target yesterday. Kefit's post just gave my head a good reason to do the same thing. I didn't notice how drastically said easy target fell into the background for no adequately explained reason, and now it's been pointed out I'm willing to, well, go back where I started. T_T

##Unvote, Vote: Carthrat

[Edible]

NeoSerela(1):  huh♥♪!?what
Alice Margatroid(4): Carthrat, UncertainKitten, Chaore, Zentillion
Carthrat(2): Kefit, Roukanken

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.  You have ~24 hours remaining.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Whee, time to filter through several pages of fairly horrible reasoning. How charming.

FWIW, the lurking is a valid charge against me. Being on the Zakeri wagon, which I was about to step off of until Zakeri decided to go suicidal (at which point I wasn't going to argue with him because come the hell on, seriously.), not to mention for which several people have much worse reasons than myself for being on, is not.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Uhhh, you weren't on the Zak wagon. You were voting Furien. Last I checked you never even said anything about supporting the Zak wagon during the last few hours of the day.

[UncertainJakutten]

Whee, time to filter through several pages of fairly horrible reasoning. How charming.

And people wonder why I get caustic . (By which I mean I agree with you and hate dealing with stuff like that.)

[Chaore]

And people wonder why I get caustic . (By which I mean I agree with you and hate dealing with stuff like that.)

People -wonder-? I thought it was perfectly damn clear.

[UncertainJakutten]

Yeah, yet they always tell me to stop and never Alice

* UncertainKitten pouts

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

First off, correction to my last post: I misremebered, I never was on the Zakeri wagon in the first place on D1. But that makes Rat's case on me make absolutely no sense anymore: I wasn't supporting one D1 wagon while voting for the other, instead I wasn't voting for either as I had someone else that I'd rather be lynched, and simply wasn't around before deadline to switch to Zentillion - not that it would have mattered, given how Zakeri decided to go suicidal at the end of D1 anyway.

First off, my reaction to Zak's flip was that of mild annoyance. I had pretty much figured out that he was Town, but then he decided to go suicidal on D1 and be the D1 lynch regardless of Town opinion, so yeah. <mutter>.

Anyway, first off, responding to people in the thread:

I'm also going to honestly say Alice's little 'I'd rather see Zent lynched' bit is actually rather odd. It's like hes trying to put himself against the Zakeri wagon without actually committing to the result of it happening... by 'conveniently' managing to not actually put his vote where his mouth is. Making it nigh impossible to get the lynch out. In fact, I'm half sure even if I did support Zent's wagon, We'd have to at the last second make a switch because alice doesn't commit. (Given we went around 7 minutes to deadline, it seems like that would be the case).

Okay. So being on a tertiary wagon D1 now is scummy in and of itsself? FWIW, I was planning to move to Zent later, but keep in mind that this weekend was a blur of conference and papers and moving, as well as another mafia game that is much higher in priority than this one for me.

Why did I not push his case harder? Uncertainty, combined with the fact that it's D1 and I tend to be fairly quiet on D1? Come on, Rat, you've played mafia with me for over 3 years, when have you *ever* (as Scum *OR* Town) seen me press a case hard on D1? Seriously.

UK/Kilga/Roukan/Furienify, could you please stop being UNLIMITED CHAFF WORKS? It's annoying as shit, really.

Anyway. I still love how Furienify, to this moment, STILL HAS NOT POSTED ANY CASE AT ALL. None. Zero. Nothing. Why are people going after myself and Kefit for lurking, when he has been doing the same and even pulling off Active Lurking at that? It seems that everyone is fine with yelling at him over it, and yet nobody actually wants to vote for him over it?

##Vote: Furienify

Zentillion, your wagon hop onto me is awful. Like, seriously awful. Oh my god. It has the feel of a desperate "save-myself" post when there are competing wagons in the day, except that Zentillion at this juncture is in no danger whatsoever of a lynch. I don't like the cheerleading from Carth at Zent while voting me, and I'm extremely surprised at Carth ignoring Furienify for that matter. Not sure about Carth at this moment.

I am also immensely displeased that K4U is managing to slip under the radar despite having the equivalent amount of posts *AND* the equivalent posting rate of myself and Kefit, and combines this with a suspicious-as-all-fuck L-1 votehop onto a flipped Townie, namely Zakeri, with no actual reasoning behind said votehop.

Suspicion list is looking as follows: Furienify > Zentillion > K4U > Rat.

And UK, considering that next to all of the pointless argumentation in this thread is your fault, that is a really irritating statement to make. Maybe if you'd get less caustic so quickly, you'd have less bullshit to sift through on rereads. Sigh.

@UK: because the issue is not the fact that you are caustic/sarcastic/whatever. If that was the only issue, I wouldn't mind you at all. The key difference is that you turn a conversation with someone in-thread into a multi-page back-and-forth chaff-fest that is worthless for determining alignment and only serves as more annoying garbage to have to skip over on a reread and that is quite likely draining to whoever decides to get into an argument with you.

There's nothing wrong with biting sarcasm, this is mafia. Just apply it sparingly, for crying out loud

[UncertainJakutten]

Ok. So why was that one post I linked in my ISO half IIoA?
Why didn't you vote Zent when you claimed you've be putting your vote where your mouth is?

Also, this is rich Alice.

Why did I not push his case harder? Uncertainty, combined with the fact that it's D1 and I tend to be fairly quiet on D1? Come on, Rat, you've played mafia with me for over 3 years, when have you *ever* (as Scum *OR* Town) seen me press a case hard on D1? Seriously.

Are you seriously using a self meta to try to clear yourself? I...don't think I often see this from you.

The Furienfly attack feels a lot like a deflection, especially given other suspects.

Honestly, the entire post bugs me but I can't point to many more examples of bad, and even the Furienfly is subjective.

Either way, I remain unconvinced.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

UK, is Furienfly a nickname or am I blind? I'm pretty sure his name is Furienify

[UncertainJakutten]

It's me being blind. Whatever, his new name is now Furienfly.

[Chaore]

Anyway, first off, responding to people in the thread:Okay. So being on a tertiary wagon D1 now is scummy in and of itsself? FWIW, I was planning to move to Zent later, but keep in mind that this weekend was a blur of conference and papers and moving, as well as another mafia game that is much higher in priority than this one for me.

I'm going to take the moment to respond to this since you chose MY post. My issue is you said 'Yeah I'm going to put my mouth where my money is' and proceeded to then not only avoid doing so, but not show up again AFTER doing so. You never put your vote down and that made it impossible for your preferred lynch to occur, ensuring Zak, who is town, was the lynch. You're not ON the wagon, you're acting like you are then letting it remain near impossible. keep in mind you WERE around near deadline as well. I see...absolutely no reason you couldn't have put your vote down ANYWAY. THIS is my issue, not anything else. Your attempt to reference the fact you were totally with the Zent wagon is what reinforces my belief you just want credit for being on the wagon without actually doing anything.

[FinnKaenbyou]

UK/Kilga/Roukan/Furienify, could you please stop being UNLIMITED CHAFF WORKS? It's annoying as shit, really.

Apologies, but I'm sort of going along with Kilga's sentiment of 'this game really isn't fun anymore'. I don't have an urge to put the time in to produce long, overblown cases when the only likely response is someone pointing out how I'm wrong and insulting me while they're at it. Since I'm alive I'll still put on appearances, but really I'm not up for getting too involved with this game atm. Sorry. >_>

[Carthrat]

Zent had done some bad stuff. He's still done that bad stuff.

I feel lurking was worse stuff, and will not buy into anyone telling me that it's somehow a non-functional method of finding scum. The time it took for Alice to post has gone beyond a joke here.

This-

I wasn't supporting one D1 wagon while voting for the other, instead I wasn't voting for either as I had someone else that I'd rather be lynched, and simply wasn't around before deadline to switch to Zentillion - not that it would have mattered, given how Zakeri decided to go suicidal at the end of D1 anyway.

-is actually irrelevant, seeing as your last post on d1 was three hours before deadline and it was quite clear that one of two lynches was happening. Expecting a turnaround then is madness and delaying your vote on that clock is likewise. Also, appeal to meta is bunk. That Furryenify could qualify for lurking/having no case is also relevant, I would likewise be willing to lynch him.

Kefit's case on me is premediated on pairings and is all but telling me that I'm bad for not consistently sticking to my day-one guns, neither of which makes a lot of sense. Trying to play by the former just doesn't work until you actually have flips in hand or bountiful information and a pressing need to play that way (i.e. lylo).

I am uncertain how to resolve people raging at me for voting people who are not Zent save by indicating it is quite possible to find multiple people scummy, and some are clearly going to look scummier than others, which is the only real way to resolve such a dillema. Presently, lurking remains the best (but not only!) criteria in my view.

[Chaore]

Nothing to say about K4U, Carth?