One other remark about the ending to my previous post:
From ZUN's Perfect Memento Afterword: "I've said it so many times now, Gensokyo is idyllic and pastoral, and is a "peace at any price" kind of a world."
In the Dragon section of Perfect Memento, the youkai sages (of which Yukari is confirmed to be one) pledged peace to the Dragon. It's logically possible that the youkai sages paid the biggest price for Gensokyo's peace. Considering that the final thing that brought about peace was the devil's contract, and that typically in most stories, devil contracts have HUGE "prices" associated with them, was Maribel's "price" that she'd become the very human-faced monster she was trying to stop?
That was an awesome post, a great read. But I have a nagging question. Is it possible for Maribel to really go that far "over the edge", as you mentioned? The Maribel we know is possibly quiet, pretty meek, confused, maybe even outright terrified that she has these dreams. The Yukari we know is cunning, arrogant, all-knowing and downright snarky (though she does have good intentions). By the looks of it, something may have happened to completely change Maribel's perception. Maybe it was her losing Renko, or something large that she completely changed?
Again, WMG/epiletic trees
Warning: Huge wall of text
Hmm... well, there are two ways to interpret that question that I can think of. The first being "Is it realistic?" IE, is it REALLY possible psychologically for someone like Maribel to go over the edge? Would having such ridiculously godly power to control borders like that and have it over the course of 1,200+ years really be able to twist someone's mind so much?
Needless to say, we don't have any real life examples to draw upon for that. Personally, though, I myself think it's possible enough, especially considering that Yukari is revealed in Flower Blooming Vagrant to retain the normal human lifespan for memory (60 years). I think it'd be hard for any human mind (and at the very least, Yukari's memory ability is human) to remain sane for more than a couple centuries of having power like that. ZUN himself appears to be aware of this, considering that Mokou (the other long-lived human) ended up going insane (and then er... possibly even looped around to being sane again depending on how you interpret it)
In essence, it really shouldn't take too long for Maribel's personality to change after "only" a century or two with powers like that. I lean towards her still being somewhat innocent by the time she met Yuyuko (which is how the two were able to become such good friends), which meant she was able to maintain her more optimistic outlook on life for about 200 years. That's just my opinion though since again, I don't have any real world cases of a centuries old human to draw upon
![Tongue :P](/forum/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
In terms of if it's possible that ZUN made it this way, well... as with everything else, ZUN is really vague. I mentioned it a couple posts ago, but I personally think Suika is evidence that Yukari wasn't always the manipulative schemer she was today. One thing that ZUN makes VERY clear about Oni is they absolutely despise "dirty tricks" (I guess Suika's IamP mist thing doesn't count because getting people to party is just a logical effect of density or... something like that). It's to the point where you can get an oni to leave you alone just by chucking around soy beans because soy beans say "Hey, I'm lying that I'm a farmer!" (Patchouli's Bohemian Archive interview). Furthermore, in SA, Yuugi starts to get mad at Aya when she mistakingly thinks Aya disguised herself as a human, because that's a dirty lie. Even Suika says to Yukari in their IamP fight that Yukari's tricks are always dirty.
The question is, then, how did an Oni end up befriending one of the most scheming manipulative suspicious people in the Touhouverse?
Perfect Memento's Oni section states that if you get an oni's friendship for even a moment, they'll never betray you. I interpret this to mean that if you ever somehow become an oni's friend (something which I'm pretty sure isn't meant to be easy), you'll be friends with that oni forever no matter what (like many things, this is an interpretation and could possibly be wrong). It also states that oni are masters of Zen (Maribel's butterfly motif is heavily rooted in zen). What I think ZUN is trying to hint at here for the reader to figure out is that somehow, some way, long long ago (1000+ years ago, around Yuyuko's time. See below) Yukari was a different personality. One that was more honest and innocent, which Suika had befriended (IE, Maribel before she had gone off the edge). After that, they would be friends forever, no matter how scheming and trickster Yukari would become afterwards.
Tangent bout the Yuyuko and Suika IamP dialogue indicating the Suika friendship timeline: Yuyuko tells Yukari that as tea gets old, it loses it's fresh scent. Yukari then states she disagrees and it's impossible for her scent to fade, before the two fight. Give that the two are arguing during this time, one possible interpretation is that Yukari thinks Yuyuko is hinting that their friendship is dying, and gets annoyed that Yuyuko would dare suggest a thing and fights Yuyuko over it. But after the battle, however, Yuyuko says that actually, the scent never goes away but instead merely thins out (indicating that the friendship really will last forever, or maybe she's just saying "Actually, I wasn't talking about our friendship. I was talking about Suika."), and then asks Yukari with a "please" to draw Suika out. Yukari then says she has no choice specifically because Yuyuko herself asked (indicating she's doing it because they are friends. This is different from Yukari's dialogues with other characters in IamP, where instead she has no choice simply because they beat her). When Suika finally comes out, Yuyuko is dissappointed saying she was hoping she'd recover old memories but instead just found a demon. My own interpretation is that Yuyuko's telling Suika "Drat, it's YOU. -_-" (IE, that Suika is a memory too but not a nice one). The two then get really snippy with each other.
(one other possible interpretation which is not mutually exclusive could also be that Yuyuko is telling Suika that the new tea she found (Reimu, apparently, since that's where Yuyuko got the tea) is a better friend than Suika is)
....well, again, these are interpretations. It can't be helped when dealing with a cloud cuckoolander like Yuyuko. But if these interpretations are even halfway correct, then it seems safe enough to say that Suika was probably friends with Yukari at least 1,000+ years ago, if not longer.
More evidence that Suika must have befriended Yukari very very shortly she arrived in Gensokyo (and thus before her powers had enough time to twist Maribel's mind into the schemer she is today) is that Suika herself indicates to Youmu in IamP that she knows Yukari's origins. "Don't trust Yukari. Her very existence is fraudulent." (which is what Maribel being Yukari could classify as on multiple possible fronts.)
Possible reasons why Yukari's existance is fraudulent:
A: Maribel is in Gensokyo because she dreamed her way there. She isn't supposed to exist.
B: Maribel travelled back in time to get to Gensokyo. There was probably a parallel timeline without Yukari/Maribel (Kaguya's PM article shows that the concept of parallel timelines exists in the Touhouverse, at least). IE, she isn't supposed to exist.
C: Yukari isn't even born an actual youkai or her real name or her true identity. IE, her existence is fraudulent
I personally think Suika met Maribel back when Maribel was more innocent and open about things. During this time, Maribel had become such good friends with Suika that she told Suika her true origins (And Suika would never betray her by revealing her secret to anyone else).
Yukari may have told Yuyuko her true origins too. Sadly, Yuyuko can't even remember what she had for breakfast (brick joke), so I was not able to find any indication whether or not Yuyuko knows Yukari's secret in any official work (unlike Suika)
Getting back on topic:
Well, that's my interpretation. In essence, I do personally think it's more than possible for someone like Maribel to eventually go off the edge. If anything, the poor girl valiantly held onto her morality for quite a respectable long time (at least 200 years) before she started doing all the "dirty" stuff (the moon invasion was 1,000 years ago, while nameless youkai Yukari was seen at least 1,200 years ago), and I also think that Suika is evidence that the Yukari of today wasn't always this mean. I could be wrong, of course.
As for what finally made her snap?
Well, it might have been the loss of Renko, but if so, that had to be a gradual factor, considering that Maribel might have held onto being a good girl for at least 200 years after being separated from Renko.
Personally, I think what made her snap was Yuyuko's death. (speculation warning!)
Yuyuko died 1,000 years ago. The invasion on the moon (the first truly dirty scheme that Yukari did) was 1,000 years ago as well.
Now, there is absolutely nothing to state HOW Yuyuko's death made Yukari snap, but Yuyuko's death taking place around the same time as Yukari's first (and one of her biggest) dirty tricks seems a bit too much to be just a coincidence to me.
Well, one thing we do know about Yuyuko's death: She committed suicide because she was scared of her power. Now, if Yukari truly was the one who told Akyu "We feed the vampires with outsider humans who's deaths are of no consequence, like suicides.", then that shows you that Yukari herself thinks a person's death is meaningless if they committ suicide. One interpretation of this is that Yukari despises people who commit suicide to the point where she thinks their deaths have no meaning. Sure, she's still friends (very good friends) with Yuyuko today, but Yukari in Flower Blooming and in IamP is constantly mad at how half-heartedly Yuyuko does things (IE, not putting enough meaning or feeling into it.
The fact that Yuyuko ran away from her power by committing suicide could have been the ultimate slap to Yukari's face, especially considering that the two were likely such good friends at that point because they shared such similar pasts. Yuyuko committing suicide in a way would be her abandoning Yukari, too (Yukari likely had no way of knowing she'd be able to be friends with Yuyuko as a ghost afterwards). Being abandoned by her only human friend in this new world after already losing Renko because Yuyuko ran away from her power might have made Yukari decide to fully embrace her's instead, and throw away all morals and such in order to accomplish her goals, as opposed to Yuyuko who always went about things so half-heartedly (and in the end just gave up and abandoned Yukari by killing herself)
tl;dr version:
Yukari (possibly) sees suicides as making death inconsequential (if she was the one that stated that to Akyu), and is also constantly annoyed with how Yuyuko never cares about consequences (always doing things half-heartedly, in Yukari's IamP words). So I think it was Yuyuko's suicide that made Yukari snap and decide to take everything super-seriously via any means necessary. In this way, Yuyuko's death could symbollically have caused the death of the innocent and care-free Maribel we all knew.
Alternate (but not mutually exclusive) theory: Yuyuku committed suicide yet was REWARDED for it (becoming appointed head of the netherworld). Angry about this (because of all the emotional trauma losing Yuyuko caused her, only to see Yuyuko get rewarded for that action), Yukari decided she would make Gensokyo her's, because if Yuyuko could get the entire netherworld for killing herself, why shoudl Yukari have to worry about what's right and what's wrong when it comes to claiming power/leadership/your vision for your country?
Second alternate theory: The saigyou youkai cherry tree, reknown for being a tree where people come to die (IE, suicide), might have been partially responsible for Yuyuko's death (although this isn't explicitly stated anywhere. It's possible though, considering that Yuyuko's body was used to seal it once and for all). Seeing that it was a youkai that killed the only one around that understood her, Yukari snapped and vowed to do everything she could to seal the youkai at any cost. First she sealed that stupid cherry tree FOREVER, fittingly with its last victim, and after that she was willing to do anything to stop those monsters from killing more humans. This theory is also not mutually exclusive with either of the above (IE, it's possible that all three of these theories happened. But again, they're only theories)
The above are merely possible reasons how Yuyuko's death could have affected Yukari. I think the main point though is that when Yuyuko killed herself, it caused a huge emotional trauma to Yukari of both sadness (the memo in Yuyuko's PCB profile) and anger (Yukari to this day still feeling bitter about people who committed suicide). The two in combination can do a lot to change someone, especially someone who was probably feeling extremely lonely and abandoned before she met Yuyuko in the first place (since by the time Maribel/Yukari met Yuyuko, she's basically been alone for 200 years. She might have had Suika as a friend before then, but Suika is a youkai and wouldn't be able to understand Maribel the way Yuyuko, who suffered the same hardships, would)
This does assume that Yukari wrote that memo in Yuyuko's profile (to show how sad and devastated she was over Yuyuko's death) and that Yukari was both the one who made that statement to Akyu about suicides and was being purposefully condescending about it when she made it (to show how mad and bitter she was about it).
I personally imagine that Yuyuko's death isn't the only thing that contributed to Maribel's downward spiral. Having such ridiculously godly powers, being urged by Renko to embrace them (Although a very good friend, Renko is really not the ideal example of purity morality. She tells Maribel that she'd totally chug the elixir of immortality if she got the chance, claiming that the stories of it being cursed are just made up to scare people away from being greedy), possible traumatic incidents she may have run into when she made her way to the moon but was caught and surrendered, having to wander around in the past alone without Renko for about 200-300 years, finally meeting another human who could understand her (Yuyuko), and then that human basically ditching her by killing herself (as opposed to Maribel, who... well, didn't kill herself)...
Well, Yuyuko's death could basically be the "last straw that broke the camel's back", so to speak. Again, this is only a guess, mostly based off of how (possibly) traumatized Yukari may have been from the death (the PCB memo, the Akyu statements) combined with the fact that Yuyuko's death took place very shortly before Yukari's first big manipulative scheme (the one that made her famous, and arguably one of her most morally vile ones. It was a war, after all).
Tangent: Incidentlly, the Dragon going all "ROAR!!!!" making the youkai sages (of which Yukari is confirmed to be one) pledging peace to pacify it also occurred 1,000 years ago (more specifically, "when the great Hakurei border was created". That occurred 1,000 years ago). Personally, I think the Dragon got mad that Yukari took the youkai of Gensokyo and waged a friggin' WAR with the moon.)
With that, I've put together this mini-timeline of what happened 1,000+ years ago (sadly, I don't know exactly when Yukari decided to name herself Yukari. Knowing the exact moment could help a lot with determining her psyche at the time. ...maybe. It was definately before her moon invasion, though, since that's when she became famous, even if an unnamed youkai which seems to be her was spotted long before that):
Yukari befriends Suika (possibly occurred as early as 1,200+ years ago)
Yukari befriends Yuyuko (1,000+ years ago. ...and I don't think Yuyuko and Suika got along very well. Yuyuko's comments to Suika in IaMP are pretty mean. I didn't see her ending, though)
Yuyuko commits suicide after seeing just how powerful she was becoming.
Possible event: Yukari is so emotionally distressed by Yuyuko's death that she seals Yuyuko's body away, proclaiming she hopes Yuyuko will never again reincarnate to suffer (one possible translation of the memo Yuyuko found in her PCB profile is "The sealing of the border between life and death is complete". This translation isn't the one used on the wikia, but I've seen it used in other places. If that really IS the correct translation, then it would seem to indicate Yukari was the one who sealed Yuyuko's body. Anyways, I bring it up here because it gives a good idea of just how emotionally destroyed Yukari might have gotten after Yuyuko committed suicide. The writer of the memo seems VERY distressed to me)
Yukari snaps as a result and changes from the innocent carefree Maribel into the dirty-trick manipulative Yukari, deciding that she wouldn't be like Yuyuko and the kid's gloves were now off.
Ghost Yuyuko gets granted eternal residence and authority over the Netherworld by the Yama, who were impressed by her restraint and her power (her Perfect Memento article).
Yuyuko and Yukari meet again. Speculation: Although Yukari is a changed personality, Yuyuko lost her memories anyways and despite being emotionally hurt by Yuyuko's suicide, Yukari can't help but befriend Yuyuko's ghost so she can be with her friend again. (Tangent: Most long-lived youkai were helped by Siki, and we know Yukari probably met Siki before, considering she's more than ready to abandon base when she senses Siki in Flower Blooming. Could the above have been the first time she met Siki?)
For her first big and dirty scheme, Yukari wages war on the moon. She lies to the youkai, telling them that they can go get a source of unlimited energy there, after which they can play all day (she gives this lie to Remilia in SSiB. I doubt she'd use a new lie because then Remilia could just say "Er... some other youkai tell me that's not the reason you gave the youkai long ago.").
(Speculation (but I feel pretty confident about this one): In truth, Maribel had already seen the lunarian's advanced technology when she first went to the moon. Maribel already knew that the people of earth had no chance against the lunarians (in Yukari's CiLR story, the unnamed Youkai came to this realization. IE, Maribel came to this realization that earthlings could not win against lunarians), even with the strongest youkai in existence doing it. Maribel/Yukari fully knew they were about to get their butts handed to them. And of course, they did. After this, the youkai decided War = BAD!!!)
(Why I believe the moon war came after Yuyuko's death: Ran states in SSiB that Yuyuko was there for the first Lunar War. I mean, it's possible Yuyuko was there as a human, but I doubt the youkai would have let a human come along, so I personally think Yuyuko was there as a ghost)
The Dragon sees Yukari's war on the moon and gets PISSED (speculation. Maybe he thought the youkai wouldn't deserve the land within the newly created Hakurei border if they were going to be warmongerers). He lets out an utter roar and Gensokyo is practically threatened to be demolished. Seeing this, the youkai sages quickly pledge peace (IE, "We're sorry! We won't do it again!"), and the Dragon becomes satisfied and spares them.
And.... er, somewhere some time ago, Yukari inked a deal with the Oni so they could go live underground (the deal is mentioned in Yukari's as well as another character's scenes with Yuugi in SA). The last oni were seen about 500+ years ago, so they possibly left fully by then.
Suika would always be Yukari's friend, but maybe she went underground too because she couldn't stand how much her friend Yukari had changed. Incidentally, Yukari's next "dirty trick" (forcing the youkai to not over-eat humans by strengthening the barrier) would be 500 years ago, as well. Perhaps Suika saw this trick and decided that she couldn't take it, anymore.
Tewi (who I personally think was another one of the youkai sages, given her age, leadership, and state of enlightenment) also joined with the Lunarians a few hundred years after the Lunarian war. She makes it clear in SSiB that she chose the Lunarians over others (and thus, in my interpretation, that she chose to abandon Yukari's youkai and side with the new comers). Maybe she got fed up with Yukari's changed personality, too. Then again, there's also the fact that Yukari/Maribel hates beast youkai (Maribel getting attacked by a human-faced beast youkai in Changeability, and Yukari seems to indicate she still hates human-faced beasts to this very day in her conversation with Keine in Imperishable Night). Maybe Tewi ditched the other youkai with her rabbits because she saw how racist Yukari was against beast youkai.
(Ran's a beast youkai too. However, the first confirmed interaction we ever see with Yukari and Ran is Yukari beating the poor fox for attacking some humans, even if it was in self defense. Heck, like I said, Yukari basically converted Ran into her computer. Not that she hates Ran though so much as loves Ran the same way many people might love their computers, but I'm getting off topic from my off-topic, now))
I think Yuyuko's meant to be a foil to Maribel in this regard. As I've stated two posts above, both Maribel and Yuyuko had a power which started out weak (border-sight in Maribel's case, controlling spirits in Yuyuko's case) but gradually grew more and more, causing all sorts of emotional distress on them (Maribel's border manipulation that caused her to have those dreams, and Yuyuko's ability to actually make a person DIE through sheer will alone). Yuyuko's profile even states her power grew unconsciously (IE, without her realizing it), just like Maribel's.
The place where the two diverge is that Yuyuko ended up refraining from using her power, to the point where she ended up killing herself. This resulted in a cheerful carefree ghost girl who was also rewarded by the yama with the head position of the Netherworld (her Perfect Memento profile states this. btw, I think "yama" is the plural for "yama" just like how "ninja" is the correct plural for "ninja"). Meanwhile, by the time Magical Astronomy had rolled around (possibly thanks to Renko, who basically encouraged Maribel to embrace the dream and change it to reality at the end of Changeability of Strange Dream) Maribel ended up accepting her power, using it for her own fancy (taking her own trip to the moon). The result is that gradually over time it corrupted her way of thinking into the scheming Yukari we know today. This fits even more if my wall of text is correct (IE, that it was Yuyuko's suicide where the true divergence happened)
Although... AFTER she became a ghost, Yuyuko herself kinda snapped, I suppose. Her PCB profile then goes on to state that she started enjoying being able to invoke death after she became a ghost. ...well, the Yuyuko of today is kinda scheming (albeit in an extremely chaotic fashion) and nuts, too, really, but she doesn't seem to be trying to control anything and apparently mostly spends her free time goofing off, unlike Yukari. Then again, considering that her authority is legit and vested to her by the yamas, she doesn't have to go out of her way to manipulate things, either, as opposed to Yukari who's taken up managing of Gensokyo on her own (she is, after all, the one charging and taking the residence tax)
"Impressed by her unwillingness to curse people and her ability to control spirits, she was appointed by the great Yama to manage the souls of the dead." (Yuyuko's Perfect Memento section)
(just in case some people are unsure, it's Yukari's PCB profile that confirms she knew Yuyuko when Yuyuko was alive)
Side note: I was saving this for a Perfect Memento post but I typed it out here so I might as well post it.Yuyuko's section of Perfect Memento has a lot of "It is said" moments. Again, my theory is that anything that begins with "it is said" was something that Yukari told Akyu, and many of Yuyuko's "it is said" moments do have to do with her origins and things that Yukari would mostly know about. You can contrast this with Siki's section, which has almost no "It is said" moments at all. Akyu is likely getting her information about Siki from the Ministry, which is cited as a source in the colophon of PM. Akyu trusts the ministry to the point where even the lie about Heaven doesn't begin with "It is said". Akyu, however, makes it very clear that she doesn't trust Yukari in Yukari's PM section. Thus why I think anything that begins with "It is said" was stated by Yukari. The exception is a part in Yuka's section where Akyu gives a footnote that Rinnosuke was the one that gave her the "it is said" moment.
For my Perfect Memento post, I'll list out all the "It is said" moments I can find. Honestly, though, most of them fall under the "Well, it's no surprise that Yukari would be the one to say that" category. The exceptions being the ones I've pointed out in the last few posts (mainly concerning Lunarians and Sakuya. Although there is one "it is said" moment that states the Netherworld is bigger than Hell, which makes me wonder if Yukari's ever been there before. Or maybe she's just talking about SAnimism's Old Hell)